Latest / No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women / From Chaos To Calm: Attachment, Trauma, And Choosing Healthy Love

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From Chaos To Calm: Attachment, Trauma, And Choosing Healthy Love · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

0:00
Rebecca: When you grow up around chaos, peace doesn't feel comfortable.
0:04
Rebecca: It, if anything, is can feel somewhat stressful because you're like waiting for the other shoe to drop.
0:16
Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
0:18
Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
0:24
Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
0:31
Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
0:41
Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature, and flourish.
0:45
Mary: Let's dive in.
0:46
Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
0:51
Mary: One of the many reasons I love working with young adults and college students is that they are often able to see for the first time the patterns of their nuclear family, especially if they are away at college.
1:02
Mary: As children, we don't know anything different than our own family.
1:06
Mary: So although I believe that children can instinctively know that something is amiss in their home environment, our literal survival depends on bonding with our parent, or at the very least, working to maintain some type of environmental balance.
1:20
Mary: That's often why women so often become caretakers, reading the room, looking for where we need to intervene to smooth the path or write the ship.
1:29
Mary: Sometimes our needs take a backseat to those of others until we don't even know how to figure out what we actually do need.
1:36
Mary: As adults, we might wonder how we ended up where we are, why we seem to end up in relationships that are chaotic or unhealthy or even abusive.
1:44
Mary: While there's no one size fits all reason, it's often because our brain seeks what's familiar.
1:50
Mary: Like my college students from urban environments who feel anxiety in the quiet of the rural community, a calm emotional environment or a healthy romantic partner can make some women feel unsettled, like they're waiting for the other shoe to drop.
2:04
Mary: They literally need to reprogram what's safe, looks like, and feels like.
2:08
Mary: My guest today is a fellow licensed mental health professional, and y'all know how much I love having guests that can hash out mental health topics.
2:16
Mary: And I always learn something new.
2:18
Mary: Dr.
2:19
Mary: Rebecca Payne is a licensed psychologist based in California who helps people untangle anxiety, relationships, and the patterns that hold them back.
2:27
Mary: She brings clinical expertise and practical strategies to make psychology clear, relatable, and useful for everyday life.
2:34
Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Rebecca.
2:37
Mary: Thank you so much for having me.
2:39
Mary: I'm so happy to be here.
2:41
Mary: So I always start with having my guests talk a bit about the moments that led them to where they are now or the work that they do.
2:48
Mary: So, what are the highlights of your story that got you to working in the mental health field?
2:54
Rebecca: I've always been fascinated by psychology.
2:58
Rebecca: I remember in high school, they didn't have a psychology program.
3:03
Rebecca: You couldn't study it.
3:04
Rebecca: But I actually had a math teacher, and we one time did this thing where we were learning about charting and we had to take a like a test to tell us like what side of the brain we use.
3:15
Rebecca: And I was so fascinated by it.
3:18
Rebecca: I don't know.
3:19
Rebecca: I always just kind of had it in my head that I was going to be a psychologist.
3:22
Rebecca: And I definitely took some detours.
3:25
Rebecca: Like I didn't go right into psychology after college, but um it's just something I've always felt called to do.
3:33
Mary: Yeah.
3:34
Mary: Well, and so much has changed.
3:35
Mary: So I was trained 35 years ago, and I worked mostly with teenagers, young adults.
3:41
Mary: And I think the thing that has changed the most is the um, I'm gonna say averageness of talking about things like anxiety and depression.
3:53
Mary: And of course, social media has helped that.
3:56
Mary: And I'm not sure always for the better, because I think there's a lot of misinformation.
4:01
Mary: But the one thing that I hear young people talk about a lot is attachment style.
4:06
Mary: And when I learned about it in graduate school, I had never heard of that.
4:10
Mary: And so there's a lot of things now that are, I think, just common common knowledge or common words used.
4:19
Mary: So I want to separate that because I think sometimes common knowledge isn't always accurate, you know, because we'll we'll hear things or or read things.
4:28
Mary: And it's like, well, that's not really a professional saying that.
4:31
Mary: It's someone who experienced something.
4:33
Mary: So let's talk a little bit about attachment style.
4:36
Mary: Can you explain that from a mental health perspective?
4:40
Rebecca: Absolutely.
4:41
Rebecca: So attachment style is something that is it develops when we are very, very young.
4:50
Rebecca: And it has to do with our relationship to our primary caregiver or caregivers.
4:56
Rebecca: It was originally, there's a study that they did on attachment style where they looked at babies and their caregivers.
5:02
Rebecca: Let me start with the secure.
5:04
Rebecca: The secure babies, when their mother would leave the room, they would become distressed.
5:08
Rebecca: And when their mother would come back into the room, they would calm down.
5:13
Rebecca: And they were in like a room that was unfamiliar, and they they just like wanted to know that their caregiver was nearby.
5:19
Rebecca: Anxious babies, when their mother would leave the room, would become distressed.
5:25
Rebecca: And then when their mother would come back, they continued to be distressed and angry and would oftentimes be like crying and would sometimes like push their mother away when she would try and offer them comfort.
5:40
Rebecca: So that's anxious.
5:42
Rebecca: Then there is avoidant attachment.
5:46
Rebecca: So the avoidant attachment babies would pretend to not notice when their mother left the room and also wouldn't re react at all and seem as though they didn't notice when their mother came back.
5:59
Rebecca: What they found though when they hooked the babies up to um measure their the actual distress by machines is that the avoidant babies were just as distressed as secure or anxious babies, they just didn't show it.
6:18
Rebecca: So that's like kind of was like the first look that we had at attachment styles at a young age.
6:24
Rebecca: And it that kind of describes a lot of what they look like as we age.
6:31
Rebecca: You know, a pure person will miss somebody, but then they come back and they feel better.
6:35
Rebecca: And then when you get to an anxious attachment style, sometimes the person coming back doesn't make them feel better.
6:43
Rebecca: It's more they're like preoccupied with the fact that they left or that they might leave again.
6:50
Rebecca: And then avoidance people act as though they don't care one way or the other, even though they do.
6:56
Mary: Yeah, they do a lot.
6:57
Mary: And so it's really informed by how we were parented, is the theory, right?
7:03
Mary: We learn that either we can rely on our caregiver to be consistent and to return, or if there is a, I'll say mother, because most of the studies obviously were done on the mothers, because you know, we especially back then, we looked at the mother is as really the sole caregiver.
7:21
Mary: So if a mother was ambivalent about being a mom and sometimes would be caring and sometimes would not, it's very confusing to a child.
7:32
Mary: And so it informs how do we then attach to not just friendships, but mostly romantic partners.
7:40
Mary: And so I think it's interesting that that has now become kind of common language that young people use, they'll refer to their attachment style.
7:50
Mary: So I think that's interesting, and I think it's important to recognize that that is informed by how we were parented.
7:57
Mary: However, it's not written in stone, it doesn't always inform things.
8:03
Mary: But I think what's really cool is when you work with people in a mental health situation, you can see often how things in childhood inform adult decision making.
8:15
Mary: Can you talk a little bit about that?
8:18
Rebecca: Yes.
8:18
Rebecca: So particularly when it comes to attachment styles.
8:23
Rebecca: So, like childhood relationships, like you were just saying, having a mother or a caregiver that's giving you inconsistent love, that typically will result in developing an anxious attachment style.
8:35
Rebecca: Cause you're like, are they gonna be on today or they're gonna be off today?
8:38
Rebecca: I don't know.
8:39
Rebecca: You're worried about it.
8:40
Rebecca: That type of person generally grows up to be somebody that continues to worry about that type of thing.
8:48
Rebecca: And in their with their romantic partners, they're constantly worried.
8:51
Rebecca: Like, where are they?
8:52
Rebecca: What are they doing?
8:53
Rebecca: Um, when are they gonna text me?
8:55
Rebecca: They haven't texted me and it's been 25 minutes.
8:58
Rebecca: Are they okay?
9:00
Rebecca: The same way that a child might worry about their mother.
9:05
Rebecca: And a trap that a lot of people will fall into, particularly anxious people, is they'll find themselves with somebody that has a more avoidant attachment style.
9:16
Rebecca: Or sometimes it'll be somebody that tends one way or another.
9:20
Rebecca: But if they're anxious enough, it will even trigger the other person to behave more avoidantly.
9:25
Rebecca: Because when you're all over somebody all the time, you know, the instinct is to be like, okay, cool.
9:32
Rebecca: Like I'll call you when I have a minute.
9:35
Rebecca: We've already talked five times today.
9:37
Rebecca: Yeah.
9:39
Mary: Yeah.
9:39
Mary: And of course, there's nature and nurture.
9:41
Mary: So again, it's not a foregone conclusion that if you have a certain type of parent, that you're going to have a certain type of pattern in your attachment.
9:50
Mary: Often our childhood informs other things, like how we react to certain things.
9:56
Mary: And I mentioned in my intro chaos.
9:58
Mary: Yes.
9:59
Mary: Right.
10:00
Mary: So why do certain people end up, tend to end up in chaotic situations over and over again?
10:07
Rebecca: Such a good question.
10:08
Rebecca: So, as people, we seek out that which we are familiar with because that's what feels most comfortable to us.
10:17
Rebecca: So when you grow up around chaos, peace doesn't feel comfortable.
10:23
Rebecca: It, if anything, is can feel somewhat stressful because you're like waiting for the other shoe to drop.
10:29
Rebecca: You're like, okay, what's going on?
10:32
Rebecca: Why is everybody acting so weird?
10:33
Rebecca: Why isn't there yelling and screaming?
10:36
Rebecca: Something bad's about to happen.
10:37
Rebecca: I just don't know what.
10:39
Rebecca: And as humans, we like to be feel like as though we're somewhat in control.
10:45
Rebecca: So sometimes that means instigating some chaos.
10:47
Rebecca: Sometimes that means seeking out relationships that are chaotic.
10:52
Rebecca: And um, it's almost like we tend to prefer the devil we know to the devil we don't.
10:59
Rebecca: And sometimes peace is the devil we don't know.
11:03
Mary: Yeah.
11:04
Mary: Well, you make a good point about we create what is familiar.
11:09
Mary: And it's funny to think that calm and peacefulness is something that makes people uncomfortable.
11:15
Mary: But if you were raised in a home where there was yelling or slamming doors, you always knew what mood someone was in, right?
11:25
Mary: Because if someone was quiet, then you had to be really careful.
11:28
Mary: Like, what is happening here?
11:30
Mary: When is the explosion going to happen?
11:32
Mary: And so I think that can really be a good informer for people.
11:38
Mary: Like if they find themselves to be unsettled when they meet someone and they're like, wow, this is really healthy.
11:46
Mary: Like this person is really healthy, and this just feels fairly uncomfortable.
11:50
Mary: That shows you where the work needs to happen.
11:53
Mary: Exactly.
11:54
Rebecca: Yeah.
11:54
Rebecca: It's if anything, more stressful.
11:57
Rebecca: If it's and we're like, why is this person's being so calm and what's gonna happen?
12:03
Mary: Yeah.
12:04
Mary: Yeah.
12:04
Mary: And I think we can also misunderstand sometimes trauma.
12:09
Mary: So I've talked about this a lot that there are traumatic events.
12:12
Mary: We all have traumatic events.
12:13
Mary: Trauma, full-blown trauma, is a little bit different, but trauma to one person may not land that way for another person.
12:22
Mary: So talk a little about how people might misunderstand trauma and how it impacts us kind of in our everyday um situations or life.
12:32
Rebecca: Yeah.
12:32
Rebecca: So I mean, it sounds like what you you're referring to is a little bit of like little what I always refer to as like little tea trauma versus big tea trauma.
12:42
Rebecca: And little tea trauma is a type of trauma that pretty much everybody has.
12:48
Rebecca: Like it can be, you know, one time your parents forgot to pick you up from school and you had to wait an hour and that was a little bit stressful, but you deal.
12:56
Rebecca: And like little tea trauma can actually be helpful developmentally because you learn coping skills.
13:04
Rebecca: I mean, little tea trauma is like maybe like you get in a fight with your best friend and you have to work it out, um, or your brother's being mean to you.
13:13
Rebecca: That's like all normal.
13:15
Rebecca: Then there's big T trauma.
13:16
Rebecca: Big T trauma is the type of trauma that often leaves a lasting impact.
13:23
Rebecca: So this can mean having your life at risk in some way.
13:28
Rebecca: It could mean a bad car accident, it could mean losing a parent at a young age, it can mean um witnessing violence, it can mean um having violence perpetrated against you or sexual assault.
13:44
Rebecca: And the thing about big tea trauma is that we're two people who experience the same exact thing aren't necessarily going to respond in the same way.
13:53
Rebecca: And they're not going to see the same impact.
13:56
Rebecca: So, you know, one person could have a ton of symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and really struggle to function after experiencing a big tea trauma, whereas the other person appears to be, you know, pretty fine and highly functioning.
14:12
Rebecca: And maybe something happens later, or some people just are very resilient.
14:17
Rebecca: And that's again, something that speaks to the nature versus nurture of psychology, the question that we're always asking and never really know how much we can credit one or the other with.
14:32
Mary: Yeah.
14:32
Mary: Well, and I think we need to then factor in resilience because it's really fascinating when we look at like abuse, for instance.
14:40
Mary: We think, or or it's portrayed, I'll say, in popular media or movies, that anybody that's abused becomes an abuser.
14:47
Mary: I was actually just watching criminal minds over my lunch hour.
14:50
Mary: But um, that's actually not true that a very that maybe a third to two-thirds of people, I don't even think it's as high as two-thirds, actually become adult abusers that were abused.
15:01
Mary: So that idea of resilience, or we'll hear someone undergo something that to us, we're like, oh my God, that's so traumatic.
15:10
Mary: So I think the interesting thing for us sitting in the therapist chair is to determine are they sort of stuffing it?
15:18
Mary: Or do they truly feel like they have handled it, they've coped, they've bounced back from it.
15:26
Mary: So, how do you try to figure that out?
15:28
Mary: When you have a client that you're like, wow, that is like some huge stuff that happened.
15:33
Mary: They appear to be okay.
15:35
Mary: Where do you go with that?
15:38
Rebecca: Um, it's a great question.
15:39
Rebecca: And also just to your other point about abusers being abused, the way I always describe it to my clients that just like kind of makes the most sense for me is like, I think about it, it's like like getting pregnant.
15:52
Rebecca: Like everybody who has a baby has probably had sex, but not everybody who's had sex has a baby.
15:59
Rebecca: Yeah.
16:00
Mary: So it's like it's a great analogy.
16:02
Mary: Yeah.
16:03
Rebecca: It's like a prerequisite almost for becoming an abuser.
16:06
Rebecca: Not that you can't, in theory, do it, but most abusers have been abused.
16:11
Rebecca: Yeah.
16:11
Rebecca: So back to your next question.
16:13
Rebecca: How do I handle a client that comes in with a ton of trauma and says, I'm fine, like I don't have any side effects, I'm good.
16:22
Rebecca: Typically, I will validate that feeling and I'll kind of poke around, be like, okay, so tell me about what are your relationships like?
16:33
Rebecca: Like, how's work?
16:34
Rebecca: And there are some people that are exceptionally resilient and really just have it down.
16:39
Rebecca: But those people also tend to have a way of coping and processing the trauma.
16:46
Rebecca: And it depends on the person and it depends on what happened.
16:50
Rebecca: But it's pretty rare that somebody will have something really traumatic happen to them, never speak of it again, and never have any major have that never resurface again for them.
17:07
Rebecca: It comes out in ways whether they're conscious or unconscious, and whether they're the person who's experienced them knows notices the ways that that trauma comes out or doesn't is also variable.
17:22
Mary: Yeah.
17:23
Mary: And I think it's interesting the way you put it.
17:25
Mary: I'll poke around a little bit because we hold a lot of power, you know, as a therapist, because I think we have to be really careful in when it does come to significant trauma.
17:36
Mary: You can't sort of like rip the band-aid off, but there also are situations where someone has sort of figured it out or they don't react to it or encode it in the amygdala, which is we I've talked about the amygdala a lot.
17:52
Mary: That is that's our smoke detector.
17:54
Mary: It's not really encoded in that in the same way in certain people.
17:58
Mary: So, you know, it's interesting in that process of making sure someone is okay, making sure there isn't something that is sort of buried in there.
18:09
Mary: And, you know, we do hold it somewhere.
18:13
Mary: You know, if there's something where you'll be in a certain situation and you start to get stomach aches or headaches, often that is the body keeping the score, as Bessel van der Koelk says.
18:25
Mary: Um so when you think about the this trauma manifesting, what are some of the things that might be clues that someone needs to kind of talk a little bit about childhood or when would you start to explore what might have happened in the past?
18:43
Rebecca: So there are a ton of clues, and I it's a tricky question because I almost always look to the past for when anything's going on.
18:53
Rebecca: I'm like, okay, well, let's think back like what has happened.
18:58
Rebecca: But I mean, just some general clues might be, you know, you're in a dysfunctional relationship, or they might come to me and say, like, I keep yelling at my kids, and I don't know why I have all this like anger, or um, I'm getting these stomach aches all the time, and the doctor says that there's no medical reason.
19:18
Rebecca: It can be that there is um a lot of anxiety.
19:24
Rebecca: They're like, I don't know why.
19:26
Rebecca: Like, I know logically it's like okay, but like I can't let my kid out of my sight.
19:31
Rebecca: I'm just terrified to do it.
19:33
Rebecca: I mean, there's as many, as many people there as there are in the world, it's as many ways as a trauma can manifest.
19:40
Rebecca: It really is dependent on the case.
19:44
Rebecca: But I guess like the best thing I can say is you know you'll know it when you see it.
19:48
Mary: Yeah.
19:49
Rebecca: Or at least for me.
19:50
Rebecca: I can usually they'll tell say one thing and I'll be like, hmm, that's odd.
19:57
Rebecca: Let's talk about that a little more.
19:58
Mary: Yeah.
19:59
Mary: Well, and I think it for anybody listening, I think if there are a lot of things that are physical symptoms for you, that headaches, stomach aches, a lot of tension, um, that can be a clue that maybe there are some things that you want to think about in terms of mental health or emotional health.
20:19
Mary: So I brought up social media, and I'm really curious because you're much younger than I am.
20:26
Mary: So you sort of came up with all of this, with people very publicly talking about their depression.
20:34
Mary: Or I mean, I remember the first time I worked at a really large college, and I remember the first time a student came to me and said, I know what my diagnosis is, and they said it, and I was like, I was scrambling because I'm like, oh shit, like I don't know what that is.
20:48
Mary: Well, it was a TikTok thing.
20:50
Mary: So it really wasn't a diagnosis.
20:52
Mary: So that's where I sort of tread between I'm worried about a lot of misinformation, but at the same time, I recognize the kind of the beauty of people being able to find other people that are experiencing some of the things that they are because it can be really scary to be like, I don't know why sometimes I can't breathe because I have so much panic.
21:16
Mary: So I think sometimes it can be a good thing.
21:18
Mary: So I'm curious, um, how do you think that our current pop culture, media, can be a tool for understanding?
21:27
Mary: And do you have any concerns about it?
21:29
Rebecca: Yes.
21:30
Rebecca: So I mean, I do agree with you in that I both think it can be beneficial and I have concerns.
21:36
Rebecca: And it's interesting because I feel like even in the time that I've grown up, there's been a shift in mental health and like the way we talk about mental health.
21:48
Rebecca: Even from in the past couple of years, it's almost like it's now we have celebrities coming out saying they have borderline personality disorder, which I mean, that would never happen if it happened 10 years ago.
22:01
Rebecca: Yeah.
22:02
Rebecca: Um people are much more willing to talk.
22:05
Rebecca: And I think that is a great thing because it destigmatizes, it shows that, like, yes, you can be successful and still have struggles.
22:16
Rebecca: And it doesn't mean that you're broken or there's something wrong with you, like it just means that you need assistance.
22:23
Rebecca: So I love that people are talking about therapy more openly and talking about mental health struggles.
22:31
Rebecca: What I find a little bit concerning is the people kind of seeing things on the internet and taking them to be facts.
22:42
Rebecca: It's almost similar to the way, you know, when you get sick or you're having some symptoms and you go on WebMD and you look them up and it says that you have cancer and are gonna die.
22:54
Rebecca: Yeah.
22:55
Rebecca: The same thing can happen with mental health.
22:59
Rebecca: And so it can that can be frightening.
23:01
Rebecca: Um, I think people will oftentimes, even abusers, now have a lot more language.
23:08
Rebecca: And I've heard people like weaponizing therapeutic language to make it sound like they're being thoughtful and caring when they're not.
23:19
Rebecca: I think that it's something that, like most topics, when it's out in the open and everyone's talking about it, there's gonna be a lot of opinions, there's gonna be a lot of misunderstanding, there's there's a lot of wrong information out there.
23:34
Rebecca: But overall, I would still say it's net positive because people are talking and people are, you know, paying attention to their mental health much more than they had in the past.
23:47
Mary: Yeah.
23:48
Mary: Well, we consider it now as much as we consider our physical health, which is much, you know, much more quote, acceptable because it's it's easier to say, oh, I get headaches all the time, versus, yeah, sometimes I am so paralyzed with fear, I can't leave my house.
24:04
Mary: You know, it's that makes us feel weak when if we have headaches three three times a week and can be like, oh, I have headaches, it's a physical thing.
24:12
Mary: So yeah, I think that is really a powerful part of it, that we're now normalizing that we're a full person.
24:19
Mary: So if you struggle with certain things and we're supposed to feel anxiety, I mean, I think that's sometimes what we need to keep reminding people that anxiety keeps us safe.
24:28
Mary: It also motivates us.
24:30
Mary: Um, if we weren't a little anxious about exams, we would never study.
24:34
Mary: But I think when it goes too far, you know, when it impedes our ability to be a functioning adult or do the things we want, that's when it's a problem.
24:42
Mary: So as someone who works with clients, if there's somebody on the fence and they're like, I would love to go to therapy, but I'm worried, or I my friends said that they had a terrible therapist, what would you tell somebody that is considering going to a therapist?
25:00
Rebecca: I would say therapy is great.
25:02
Rebecca: And you get to talk about yourself the whole time and all about you and you know, making yourself better and examining yourself and like who wouldn't want to do that.
25:14
Rebecca: So, and it's not something to be afraid of.
25:18
Rebecca: Um, of course, there are people that have had bad experiences, and that's really unfortunate.
25:24
Rebecca: However, I also think that sometimes it can be tricky to find the right match for you.
25:31
Rebecca: I often will encourage people to talk to two or three therapists before you make your decision and go with the person that feels like that you drive with best because that's going to be the most effective, the person that you're most comfortable talking to.
25:45
Mary: Yeah.
25:45
Mary: Well, and that didn't used to be a thing.
25:47
Mary: You used to just take whoever you got, and now everybody has consultations.
25:51
Mary: You can talk to them, you can kind of vet them.
25:54
Mary: But yeah, I tell people that the only place you can go and have somebody give you their full attention for 45 to 55 minutes is in therapy.
26:04
Mary: But again, you make a good point that it's it's like anything.
26:08
Mary: You're gonna have a plumber who's not good, or you're gonna take your card to a mechanic and the problem's not fixed.
26:14
Mary: And so I think empowering people to be able to say, yeah, this isn't helping me.
26:21
Mary: I think I'm gonna look so, I mean, give it time.
26:24
Mary: I always say three sessions, but yeah, I want to empower people to feel like I love that you use the word feel, like it if it feels right or if it feels not right, I think you go with that because this is about your emotional and mental health.
26:40
Mary: So yeah, for sure.
26:41
Mary: Well, thank you for talking about all these topics today.
26:44
Mary: This was fun.
26:46
Rebecca: Yes, thank you so much for having me.
26:47
Mary: You're welcome.
26:48
Mary: And I want to thank everyone for listening.
26:49
Mary: If you're interested in knowing more about how to figure out how to use your unique nature to set boundaries, stay well, and create healthy relationships.
26:56
Mary: My upcoming book, Nature Knows, can help.
26:59
Mary: For now, join my launch team to get exclusive updates and first peeks at the beautiful hand-drawn illustrations and other fun perks.
27:05
Mary: You can join at maryrothwell.net forward slash nature knows.
27:08
Mary: I've linked it in the show notes.
27:10
Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.