Latest / Found in Interpretation Podcast / Ep. 60 - From Kazakhstan Oil Rigs to London Courtrooms — Anna Kerod

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Ep. 60 - From Kazakhstan Oil Rigs to London Courtrooms — Anna Kerod · Found in Interpretation Podcast

0:01
Hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Found in
0:05
Interpretation podcast, the podcast that talks about
0:07
interpretation, translation, artificial intelligence and all
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kinds of cool things. And I'm here, Brian.
0:14
Brian, how you doing? I'm doing great, Anna.
0:16
Thanks for asking. And we're also here with Anna.
0:18
Anna, how are you doing today? I'm very well.
0:20
Thank you. Nice to meet you guys.
0:23
Alright, let's kick it. OK, so we here with Anna Karad.
0:43
Did I pronounce your name correctly?
0:45
No, you didn't. That's carrot.
0:46
Carrot. That's good.
0:47
OK. Well, you know, I'm trying.
0:50
That shows how prepared I am. So Anna is highly skilled,
0:55
simultaneous interpreter, active in Russian A, English B, with 20
1:01
years of experience. She's familiar with legal
1:04
systems in England and other countries of the former Soviet
1:08
Union and has a good understanding of contractual,
1:11
financial and tax matters. And what I found really
1:14
interesting when I read her bio is that she works also in the
1:18
oil and gas industry and she has that expertise.
1:22
It's the very first time that we have someone with expertise from
1:26
that field and she's a members of all kinds of organizations.
1:30
I mean reading here the LCIAICSCPACITFIEBRDN you name.
1:39
It now you're just making it up. I'm having the alphabet soup of
1:42
organizations. Here.
1:44
Pumping their rather my clients than organizations, but I'm
1:47
thank you. Sorry I read too quickly.
1:49
Yes, you did, yes. So, um, how did you start as an
1:55
interpreter? Well, I moved to UK in 1992 in
2:02
prehistoric times and back then Russian was a an exotic
2:08
language. And although I'm not a linguist
2:10
by training or background, I'm a scientist, actually a biologist.
2:15
I found myself, um, considering what to do next.
2:19
Just finished university, graduated from Saint Petersburg
2:22
State University, and it felt like language, Russian language,
2:27
was in great demand and sort of scientific and the natural
2:32
sciences training was useful. And so I found myself in
2:36
technical translation for oil and gas industry back in the
2:40
90s, because that's when a lot of business was done in the
2:44
former Soviet Union republics and people with language
2:51
knowledge and technical or scientific skills were required.
2:56
In high demand, yeah. Yeah, so that's how it started.
2:59
Now, when you're talking about former Soviet Union, so you
3:02
worked for many different countries once the Soviet Union
3:06
became well, had independent states after.
3:09
So do they all speak Russian or no?
3:12
Russian still remains A lingua franca in most Well, maybe let
3:19
me rephrase this. Back and and late 90s it used to
3:23
be lingua franca and still remains in many of the posts
3:27
Soviet Union countries. So my particular experience was
3:32
predominantly in Kazakhstan and some other Central Asian
3:35
republics where oil and gas main source of prosperity.
3:43
And yeah, Russian is used or still used as a business and
3:49
legal language of communication. And do you get to go to, let's
3:55
say, oil platforms or some exotic sites?
4:00
Well. I did, yes.
4:02
So for about 17 years I worked on the project in Kazakhstan.
4:05
It was an onshore project, so I didn't get to go on the offshore
4:10
platforms. But yes, certainly have been on
4:12
the drilling rigs and I've been on the field several times and I
4:16
actually have seen through my own eyes and spent quite a lot
4:20
of time on the field saying the entire operation in in full
4:27
stream. So how all this produced and and
4:31
refined and then subsequently piped through the pipeline?
4:36
And were you there by yourself as an interpreter, or was it
4:38
like a team of interpreters that went?
4:41
I worked for a small legal firm that provided services for this
4:45
particular oil and gas consortium.
4:48
They had their own interpreters and translators on site, but I
4:52
was predominantly used for sort of high level communication with
4:58
government officials and such like, so I used to fly very
5:03
often. So it was always Russian,
5:05
Russian and English, right? Russian and English yeah, so I'm
5:08
I'm by active so I Sutton a lot of meetings where people spoke
5:15
both languages and just had to interpret to and from.
5:19
And you never decide you never thought maybe I would move to
5:22
Kazakhstan and or did. You there?
5:24
There were many offers to to actually relocate to Kazakhstan,
5:29
but for multiple reasons it didn't work for me at this time.
5:33
OK, so now London is your home. Yes, it's been, well, I'm not
5:38
really based in London, I'm in Brighton by the coast, but
5:41
right, Yeah, yeah. So I've been living in UK since
5:44
92, Yeah. And commuting to my job
5:47
assignments. So after the pandemic, did the
5:51
the nature of your job change a lot or did you continue to
5:57
travel? It actually changed before the
6:00
pandemic, so I branched out independently in 2017, started
6:08
my own little business, and these days I predominantly focus
6:12
on interpreting in commercial arbitration and litigation.
6:17
Part of it stems from my own CARS background because as every
6:23
project, construction or development project in the
6:27
world, it starts from very unthinkable constructive phase
6:32
when people conclude a lot of agreements, invest a lot of
6:35
money and then some 10 years down the line they start
6:39
arguing. So this piece arise and we go
6:42
into dispute resolution and litigation stage.
6:45
So it was somewhat a natural transition for me from, you
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know, I've been through the full cycle of oil and gas business
6:54
from exploration, then going to production, marketing,
6:59
processing and then into disputes and dispute resolution.
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So since 2017 I'm operating independently.
7:06
So you've you've seen it all, you've seen all the stages from
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from courting meeting. It's like marriage, indeed.
7:14
Yes, they divorce. Yes.
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Exactly. The marriage to children and
7:18
then the. Divorce, yes.
7:19
And then actually each other, yeah, that that helps a lot in
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understanding how the the world of big business, big commerce
7:29
works because we're talking about multi billion investment
7:33
projects and multibillion subsequent discuss.
7:39
Yeah. What would what would you say
7:41
that are the different, the, the more specific elements that you
7:46
find in that industry compared let's say with other industries
7:50
that we can expect? I don't have an in-depth
7:54
knowledge of other industries, but um, what I would like to say
7:59
on this subject is, is very useful to have expertise in an
8:03
industry and actually in-depth industry expertise.
8:07
And I've been really fortunate and insofar that had first hand
8:12
experience working with first with engineers that prepared the
8:15
development plans and sat with them on daily meetings,
8:19
sometimes lasting 4 hours with their Kazakhstani counterparts
8:25
and then move to other subsequent development stages
8:31
and then gain knowledge from sort of grassroots knowledge.
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Yeah. And that that helped a great
8:38
deal when it came to dispute stage that I understood really
8:42
well where the problems arise from.
8:46
Yeah, that's interesting. The, I mean you're, you're an
8:49
expert in this field that we've never like Alan said, we've
8:52
never had anybody in the oil and gas industry on our podcast.
8:54
So it's so interesting for us to and especially your
8:58
international like US or UK and and Kazakhstani by going back
9:06
and forth and all this stuff like this is.
9:08
You guys are based in Canada. Canada would have thought that
9:11
you have a lot of oil business going on there and that.
9:14
Requires, yeah, but everything is in English.
9:16
Yeah. Because the the because in
9:19
Quebec we don't have an oil or not much of A gas industry.
9:25
It happens in the western part of the country in Alberta, and
9:29
Alberta basically sends everything to the United States
9:32
to be refined in the American settlers back.
9:34
To illegal. OK, Yeah.
9:36
Yeah, yeah, it's more monolingual for sure.
9:38
Yeah, yeah. Plus, it's not, as it's much
9:41
more difficult to extract oil in Alberta than it is probably in
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Kazakhstan. Ohhhhh I would probably
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challenge that. Oh yeah, really?
9:49
Yeah, yeah, it's I can go into a great technical depth, pardon
9:54
the pun. Well, sure, I know this is a
9:56
podcast. Why not?
9:57
To tell you about high pressure and high sulfur content
10:03
production under the salt Dome and we're talking about the
10:06
field that they drilled to about 5 kilometers under the sole Dome
10:11
with massive yeah with massive pressure and massive percentage
10:16
of H2S. So it's one of the most
10:20
challenging fields in and it's not, it's not not unusual for
10:25
Kazakhstan. And in fact, a lot of expertise
10:27
were was coming from all over the world really because it is
10:34
developed by a consortium of international oil and gas majors
10:38
that brought their technical expertise to develop this field.
10:42
Wow. Yeah, it's so you have to dig
10:44
fairly deep in order to actually get to the oil in in Kazakhstan.
10:48
Yes. Do they use fracking?
10:52
They do, but it's done with injection of the gas that they
10:59
produce. So it's not hydrofracking as
11:01
such here. OK.
11:03
Yeah, I know in Canada it's more like the the oil is very dirty,
11:06
so they have to clean it up. It's it's so that's that's the
11:09
biggest challenge. Did they clean up the oil in
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Kazakhstan? But it's, it's the main problem
11:14
is not the, the, the heavy substances, it's the volatiles
11:18
like mercaptans, which are very poisonous.
11:20
So they can't produce oil without associated gas, and gas
11:24
is very poisonous, so they have to find an outlet for gas before
11:28
they can produce oil. So having.
11:30
Technically very challenging. So having said that, you have to
11:33
do a lot of cases that involve health and safety for.
11:36
There have been luckily very little in terms of accidents on
11:43
the field. In fact, a country call any
11:46
litigation or or disputes related to health and safety
11:51
issues. Thanks God, because it's, it's a
11:53
massive field and a lot of, you know, people living in that
11:57
area, so. OK, so but it but as a prevent
12:02
like there must be some training and to prevent if, if no
12:07
accidents, if you if you don't remember any accidents or
12:10
anything happening, then it means that they're well
12:12
prepared, they're well trained. There are a lot of policies in
12:16
place exactly documents. In fact, every time you go to
12:19
the field, you go through depending which areas of the
12:22
plant you access, you, you undergo a training on the day
12:26
and you wear your PPE and you know, you, you go on the
12:29
platform, you know. As an as an interpreter, that's
12:33
what you did as well. Yes, yeah.
12:35
So you carry your personal oxygen tank and you dressed in
12:41
overalls. Wow.
12:43
Doing everything. Yeah.
12:45
Yeah. And how does that work for
12:47
Indian interpreter? Do you speak out?
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Do you do you use like the little headsets?
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Or in this circumstances, usually couple of executives and
12:57
myself and you just basically, yeah, follow them and whisper
13:03
into their ears. Through the mask, through the.
13:06
Through the no no, the mask you, you carry it, you in case
13:10
something happens. So it's just, you know, there is
13:12
no constant danger, but you, you, you prepared to donate on.
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We should visit imagination on their part.
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Well, I'll after this picture. Kazakhstan is known for its very
13:26
continental climate, so gets to -40 something in winter, plus
13:31
the chilling factor of the wind, which is insane.
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Kazakhstan is a huge plane that carries on for thousands of
13:39
kilometers, so when the wind blows, there are no obstacles.
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So when it blows, it blows. I mean, I've been to Canada and
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I'm avid skier so I've been to harsh mountain conditions, but
13:50
nothing compares to -42 plus the chilling factor of the wind that
13:54
literally blows you off your feet as you step off the plane.
13:57
Wow. And then gets 2 + 40 in the
14:01
summer. Yeah, it reminds me a bit of the
14:05
centre central part of Canada with it's called Saskatchewan
14:10
and the beginning of Alberta. Probably not dissimilar.
14:14
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Extremes.
14:16
Yeah, it's miserable. Well, you know, I would say it's
14:20
a it's a variety. It's much better than because
14:23
sometimes we have it here too. That's why I talk about
14:26
experience here. Now, did you become a member of
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AIK during this whole process or after?
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Before. No, I joined.
14:37
I joined I when I started my own business, frankly, because I was
14:42
in house, I felt no need to sort of socialize with the colleagues
14:47
and be a member of, of an institution like that.
14:49
Although I was a member of ITIL since 2006, I believe.
14:55
But, you know, I only came on the radar when I set up my own
14:59
business and I realized that I'm branching out from oil and gas
15:03
industry into something different.
15:04
But and decided that it's time to connect with the world of my
15:10
colleagues. Yeah.
15:11
And just so that everyone who has done an interpreter and is
15:13
listening and knows that AIC is the International Association of
15:17
Conferences Conference Interpreters and ITI is the
15:21
Institute of Translators and Interpreters.
15:23
Correct. Yes, that's the British
15:25
institution, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's it's.
15:28
It's it's open for everybody. You.
15:30
Even as a Canadian I can join. Yes, absolutely you have to go
15:34
through the assessment process. But yes, we welcome
15:36
international of. Members, it says on on LinkedIn
15:41
that you're the vice chair, is that.
15:43
Yes, as of six months ago, yes. Congratulations.
15:48
Thank you. What does that mean?
15:51
Does it? Is it the same like a vice Dean
15:54
of? Well, no, when we say institute,
15:58
it's not an educational establishment, it's a
16:00
professional institute. OK, so we basically it's a
16:04
membership association and yeah, so it's, it's being vice chair
16:09
of an organization. OK.
16:13
Yeah. So I'm a board member and the
16:14
Vice Chair of. Just like in my case, I'm a
16:18
board member of Atiak, which is the Quebec Translators,
16:23
Interpreters and Terminologies Association.
16:25
Yeah, sounds very similar. Maybe we should establish some
16:28
synergies. We're looking out for an
16:29
international partnerships. And.
16:31
We should take this discussion offline, Alan.
16:35
To be continued. To be continued indeed, yes.
16:39
They will have another podcast on the merger or the the the
16:43
symbiotic relationship between the ITI&OTIC.
16:47
Absolutely. Yeah, why not?
16:49
I think our industry is changing and the landscape is changing.
16:54
So I think the future is in in forging synergies and and
16:59
supporting each other. Do you think, do you think that
17:02
this, this whole let's say electrification of let's say
17:08
transportation and all of that has an effect on the kind of
17:12
contracts that you get or you don't see a dent in the
17:17
industry? I take it this is a figure of
17:22
speech about electrification and transportation.
17:24
Yeah. Here in Canada, it's a big
17:26
topic. They want to make sure that all
17:28
cars are electric. They're favoring
17:30
hydroelectricity rather than oil.
17:34
You know, I, there's they, they talk a lot about clean energy
17:40
and, or let's say windmills or things like that, rather than
17:44
let's say, extracting oil. While they talk about it in in
17:48
UK as well, and I think it's in the hands of people who make
17:51
policies on that. But I, my personal opinion is
17:54
it's not moving as fast as one would have expected and and
18:00
wished. So I think we're probably in our
18:04
lifetime, we'll probably still see diesel cars.
18:07
Yeah, Yeah. We're still, yeah, we're still
18:08
very reliant on oil and yeah. I think we are.
18:11
Yeah. So for now, like I guess you as
18:13
an interpreter in that sector, you're still safe basically,
18:16
right? Like you still have out of
18:17
business and things. Like that, I think my challenges
18:20
are probably not so much to do with the sector, but with the
18:25
language. My, my, my language is Russian.
18:29
Um, given the geopolitical situation, business
18:38
collaboration between Russian speaking parts of the world and
18:41
the rest of the world is not as um.
18:47
Yeah, I know. Yeah.
18:48
Today there's there's a, there's a yeah, there's a lot of issues.
18:51
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically with the ups and
18:56
downs of whatever, whatever goes on in the world of politics that
19:01
directly affects you, maybe even more than technology, I would
19:05
say. I think so.
19:06
I think it it affects everybody with my language combination.
19:10
I think what what helps is really to survive is specialism
19:15
and and working for direct clients.
19:18
Do you Do you talk about this with other interpreters that are
19:22
in the same language combination as you?
19:24
Absolutely, yes. Not only through my group of
19:28
colleagues and friends that I know in the industry, but also
19:31
through the institute. And we're kind of facing the
19:33
challenges that everybody faces, both with language combination
19:38
and the technology. Yeah, because.
19:41
Advances. I learned they correct me if I'm
19:43
wrong, but I don't think we've ever had someone who has
19:47
struggled professionally due to a geopolitical situation, right?
19:51
Nobody has there to admit it, though.
19:54
That's true. That's true.
19:56
Well, I mean, but it's not I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not surprised in a
20:00
way because basically whenever there's a big political
20:05
situation, then you know, interpreters, you know, that
20:10
when they facilitate communication, if nobody's
20:12
speaking, then yeah, we're, we're not really useful, right?
20:16
Yeah. But also apart from the fact
20:18
that the the overall amount of work diminishes, there is also a
20:23
different aspect, namely the sanctions.
20:27
So in my capacity as a predominant legal interpreter
20:31
these days in commercial litigation arbitration, I have
20:34
to be exceptionally careful in contracting with clients that
20:39
might potentially fall into the specially designated list.
20:44
So that that creates a whole are the new different area of
20:49
uncertainty and risk. I see.
20:54
So. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
20:57
And so wow. Well, I'm glad you you're able
21:01
to navigate through that because I think that now you are you're
21:05
leaving right now, but I'm guessing for more like a
21:07
Christmas holiday. Than for we're just listening,
21:10
Fred. Yeah.
21:10
No friends in South Africa. No, I don't think, I don't think
21:14
anybody works in our profession around Christmas and New Year.
21:20
Religious conferences, if there's any for.
21:23
That scenario I never dumped my myself into.
21:26
But we we have a colleague here in Canada that does a lot of
21:29
the, the religious events, I guess.
21:32
OK, I don't do Latin. No, I don't need to do that
21:36
neither think no, no Greek. Yeah, it says also on your on
21:43
your LinkedIn profile and I'm kind of curious about the ISO
21:47
17,120. Yeah.
21:51
What is that? Yeah, what?
21:52
Is that that that's the I saw that God deals with translation
21:56
standards and that's what we get through being members of ITIL.
22:03
So if you're an assessed member, so I'm a member of Institute of
22:06
Translators and Interpreters, both as a translator and
22:09
interpreter. So there are two different entry
22:13
categories and you have to be assessed on both.
22:15
OK, so if you successfully passed the assessment as a
22:20
translator, you automatically qualified subject to filling in
22:27
some forms and paying the subscription to ISO
22:31
qualification. I believe we're still waiting
22:33
for the simultaneous interpreting ISO, unless you
22:37
guys enlighten me because I think there's.
22:40
No, that's why I was curious about it cause.
22:41
I know it's, it's a, it's a translation qualification
22:44
because I think for interpreting it's only the equipment that is
22:47
currently gone by the ISO, but not the quality of our delivery.
22:51
Yeah, the equipment has to be ISO compliant.
22:53
Yeah, interpretation equipment and an interpreting or
22:58
translation agency like say UN language services.
23:01
I could go through the process to make sure that my company is
23:05
ISO compliant, but that's more of like like making sure that
23:08
there's a quality control and processes in place to be that it
23:12
to be able to get that. But as an interpreter per se,
23:16
there's no ISO. No, but I believe it's in the
23:18
pipeline. I mean I heard the rumours
23:20
through IK that's something is is brewing there.
23:23
So what what would that be? Would be like basically like a
23:26
test and. I'm curious myself to see how
23:31
how how is that gonna work? That's all gas and may start
23:35
rumors I've found. Fake news.
23:40
Yeah. You're number one source of fake
23:42
news, Yeah. Yeah.
23:43
But it's, I feel that I don't know Ryan, would you think, but
23:48
I feel that in Europe there are more rules, regulations and
23:54
you've got to be a member of i.e.
23:55
K and things like ISO compliant is very important.
23:59
But I feel that in Canada it's it's a very different market on
24:04
that regard. There's it's less stringent,
24:07
right? I mean you're you're on the
24:09
board of OTAK. Like if someone becomes a
24:11
certified translator, do they become ISO certified also?
24:15
Not as far as I know. Yeah.
24:17
So that maybe answers the question right?
24:19
Yeah, and it's not even. Never heard of that in Canada.
24:21
And it's not even mandatory you, I mean, if you want to have, if
24:24
you wanna stamp that you're it's a certified translation.
24:28
Yeah. But I'm guessing that a lot of
24:29
translators and or even less interpreters out there are, are
24:34
not in a, in a professional association.
24:36
So it's a, it's a very free market kind of approach.
24:41
I think frankly guys in in UK as an opposite to Europe it's also
24:47
pretty liberalized and we don't really have very strict
24:52
requirements as you described. There is no you won't concept of
24:57
certified translator full stop. I mean, I TI is as close as it
25:03
gets because we, if you remember is the translator, you get the
25:09
sales that you can attach to certified translations.
25:12
But strictly speaking, there is nothing in the law to say, um,
25:17
anything about it. I believe in Europe, it's much
25:20
more stringent in continental Europe.
25:23
So we're somewhere in between probably.
25:25
Because France is part of it and everything and everything has to
25:30
be in the rules. That's yeah, yeah.
25:33
So did you find that God becoming a freelancer and
25:36
becoming a member of AIC and ITIL then that helped you
25:41
professionally? It helped me in so far that I'm
25:44
connected with, with what's going on and it expands my
25:47
network of my colleagues in terms of finding clients.
25:51
It does the question. I probably would say no because
25:53
I think the industry still remains pretty ignorant about
25:57
this. You know, whatever it goes
26:00
internally in, in, in our profession, I work predominantly
26:06
probably 99% for direct clients and direct clients work on
26:12
personal recommendation or yeah, word of mouth really.
26:18
So I don't think it will mean anything to my clients if I tell
26:22
them I'm a member of this and that and, and I so certified.
26:26
I just believe in being professional just for the sake
26:30
of being. Same thing.
26:32
Same thing. Yeah.
26:34
So and what if you if someone who is a young interpreter or
26:40
someone who wants to become an interpreter and has your
26:43
language combination would like to get into the field, what
26:48
advice would you give them this point in your career?
26:51
I would give two advices. First of all, specialize in
26:55
something. I think the time of generalist
26:57
is voluntarily over. I think where AI is breathing
27:01
into our neck so to speak. And you know, you can't stop the
27:09
the tide, you have to roll with it.
27:11
So if you want a competitive advantage, get a specialism in
27:15
something. And when I say specialist, you
27:17
don't need to go to school and study something specifically.
27:20
You know, I, I morphed from a scientist until linguists and
27:24
then the into technical side and legal.
27:30
But yeah, I think it's essential to, to be a specialist in a
27:33
particular area, particularly in the beginning of your career to,
27:37
to, to actually make a way and maybe start from industry and
27:41
then move forward. And yeah, look, look out for
27:46
direct contacts, go to professional conferences, mix
27:50
with industry, sell yourself directly to the market.
27:53
That's my vision. How can one succeed,
27:58
particularly now we just start? Yeah, absolutely.
28:01
There. It seems like it's more of a
28:03
world of collaboration and being able.
28:05
To yes to help one. Another When I first started in
28:08
2003, I didn't feel like it was like that, but I feel like
28:11
things have changed. Yeah, I mean in, in my current
28:20
experience in in the legal sphere, clients often ask for
28:26
other language combinations. And I would always know through
28:30
being a member of associations like Aiko or IT, I would always
28:34
know people in different language combinations that I'll
28:38
happily recommend to the clients.
28:40
And so I think the role of what they call consultant
28:45
interpreters, UM, is becoming much more important because when
28:54
stakes are high and mistakes are costly, a recommendation from a
29:00
colleague probably is much more valuable for direct client than
29:05
going to an agency and just getting something off the shelf.
29:09
Like do people go to the agency to pick up a lawyer?
29:13
They probably don't. Know exactly?
29:15
When it comes to physical legal interpretation, legal
29:19
interpreters, I I believe the approach would be the same.
29:22
Should be the same really. I love that at that the analogy
29:27
that you gave, Like, yeah, if you go to a law firm, they're
29:29
not gonna, you're not gonna interview all the lawyers to see
29:31
which ones gonna be yours, right?
29:33
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, neither would you.
29:36
Go to some kind of pool and just request a lawyer.
29:40
Yeah, randomly take one. Yeah, take one.
29:44
Yeah, yeah. Brian and I, we also specialize
29:48
in legal interpretation, but on a on a different front than
29:53
yours. And actually it Brian.
29:55
Yeah, well, actually Brian is the one who introduced me to
30:01
interpreting for Judges and Canada.
30:04
OK, we, we, we do some training for judges and all kinds of
30:09
workshops or professional associations.
30:14
And that's an overtime because I was interested in the topic and
30:19
I like it a lot better. Let's say that medical.
30:21
Medical is really not my thing. I run away from blood.
30:24
I mean like anything that has to do with medical, you know, I'm,
30:27
I don't like hospitals and anything.
30:29
You found your specialization. Exactly.
30:31
So over time, when you check boxes on things you don't like,
30:36
eventually you find something you like.
30:38
Exactly, and you're good. At exactly well, you you're,
30:42
you're usually good at something you like or well, and if you're
30:46
bad at something you like then you don't get paid for it.
30:48
Or something you're curious about and you just.
30:51
Exactly. Yeah, actually, I've never said
30:53
this and and our podcast, but Once Upon a time I did want to
30:57
be a I loved wine so much I wanted to become a somebody.
31:00
And then I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if I was a
31:03
sommelier who specialized in translating for all of the wine,
31:09
like the wine producers in France or Spain?
31:12
Or because I. Have.
31:14
Because I have French and Spanish in English, right?
31:16
So I could do like Spain, France, Australia, South Africa,
31:20
United States, Canada, any of their marketing material in
31:23
another language. So yeah.
31:26
Funny you should mention this, Brian.
31:28
I think we're kindred spirits because I do have interest in
31:32
wine as well. And some years ago I was
31:35
contemplating doing a full degree in knology and there are
31:40
a couple of institutions in the UK that you can get masters and
31:46
anology. And because my background is in
31:48
biology, I actually applied to one of them and they told me you
31:52
can do masters in one year full time.
31:54
And I came to my boss, I was still employed, it was still in
31:57
house. And he said you have to make a
32:00
choice, you either work or you study.
32:02
So it made the passion rather than rather than.
32:09
So anyway, very. Interesting what you said about
32:12
teaching the judges, Alan, because that's on my sort of
32:16
radar, something to do with educating the industry how to
32:20
use interpreters and translators.
32:21
So I'd like to pick your brains on that.
32:24
Yeah. Well, Brian will be even better
32:26
because Brian has I think 20 years of experience in that
32:29
field. OK.
32:31
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's he's my go to as well.
32:35
OK, well, that that sounds sounds like an interesting
32:38
discussion to to to have an explore.
32:41
Absolutely. Yeah.
32:42
Because I often feel in my dealings with my clients that
32:46
there is a, there is a need to actually maybe speak at the
32:49
conferences and tell them a little bit more how to select
32:52
your interpreters and translators, how to pay for
32:56
quality rather than, um, something else.
33:01
Absolutely, yeah. I'm sorry, Brian, I thought you
33:05
were saying something. No, no, absolutely.
33:07
It's a good idea. It's a great idea.
33:08
And actually like one thing that we haven't done yet on our
33:11
podcast is have court interpreters come on.
33:14
So that's food for thought for for that point of view as well.
33:18
I'm one of them. Oh, I'm Yeah, When you say court
33:23
interpreters, commercial litigation, arbitration is court
33:28
work. I set an interpreted cross
33:31
examinations of. OHK.
33:33
Witnesses. That's that's what I've been
33:35
doing predominantly since 2017. And you've also said as a
33:40
witness for some cases. Right.
33:43
I was used as a professional, as an expert witness for language
33:47
related matters. I never was actually cross
33:49
examined on a couple of occasions that came really
33:53
close, but I prepared my expert report and submitted and they
33:58
eventually told me that they satisfied with my writing
34:01
report. But yes, wow.
34:02
And that wasn't a matter of, you know, sometimes the whole case
34:05
turns on the meaning of one word, which was interpreted and
34:09
misinterpreted. I've also done a lot of work of
34:13
UM actually listening to UM audio recording and comparing it
34:20
with the live note system that country code is used to pick up
34:25
on inaccuracies and. Right.
34:29
You work and you work as an expert for let's say one or one
34:33
of the parties and then you can you get to double check what is
34:38
said. What often happens is they some
34:45
at some point during the hearing, which can spun over
34:48
weeks and months or weeks probably there is a realization
34:52
that there is a problem with interpretation because normally
34:55
in any given scenario there are people in the courtroom who are
34:59
bilingual so they can pick up on inaccuracies and they often have
35:03
their own interpreters expert sitting and I've been in this
35:07
capacity as well. When you basically sit in the
35:09
headphones and listen to your colleagues in the booth and look
35:14
at the live note, and at the same time you write messages to
35:18
the council about inaccuracies. And this is probably from the
35:21
point of view of cognitive load is the most difficult job I've
35:24
ever done because it's like not just interpreting, but in your
35:30
head, but listening to somebody else and and writing notes.
35:33
But it sometimes comes to the point that they need to stalk
35:38
the proceedings and get other people involved, third party
35:42
interpreters to listen through the recordings and on both
35:47
languages and look at the live note and pick up on inaccuracies
35:52
and write reports on. And that's, you know, that's why
35:55
where I'm coming from when it comes to educating the industry
35:58
about the importance of actually selecting the right people for
36:01
the job. Because at the end of the day,
36:04
the whole exercise becomes incredibly lengthy and costly
36:10
for the parties. And when people go into
36:14
litigation, they don't necessarily think about the
36:16
importance of picking the right, um, professionals for this role
36:22
and then end up paying through the nose for, you know, council
36:28
time, court time and everything else.
36:30
Yeah, I I wonder if it's the same thing with family law, like
36:33
in the sense like, I don't, I don't know if there would be
36:37
someone to validate the accuracy of say a divorce case or an
36:44
adoption case or something like that.
36:47
Unfortunately, I've got no, no, no knowledge of that.
36:49
I've never dealt with family law or criminal.
36:54
Yeah, I wonder. Commercial.
36:56
But I wonder if they have the same, those same I guess
37:00
mechanisms to be. Able to, but I would imagine
37:02
that yeah, things like that happen and eventually somebody
37:05
would have to pay for it. But yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:09
Yeah, exactly. It's another added cost to the
37:12
legal system. Absolutely, yeah.
37:15
Are you are you familiar with the Russian legal system?
37:20
Insofar that the my involvement on the commercial side, not not
37:26
the criminal or or family law. Yeah, I was wondering if in
37:32
Russia it was like a Civil Code, like the.
37:35
French have, yeah absolutely. The continent civil court.
37:38
That's not the case law like in UK.
37:40
OK, it's not common law. No, it's not common law now.
37:43
OK. So go ahead.
37:46
When you're doing something like, say, between the UK and
37:49
Russia, does it become international law or do you have
37:51
to adopt the law of? Either one or no a lot of again
37:56
because I'm predominantly operating within the commercial
38:00
disputes. The reason they lend in the
38:02
London courts or courts in Europe is because English law is
38:06
the governing law of the contracts that the litigating.
38:11
But when I worked as an in house in Kazakhstan, there were a lot
38:15
of sort of cross points when it wasn't just contractual
38:23
mitigation or proceedings. There are a lot of things to do
38:27
with the local domestic law, which comes a health and safety,
38:32
labour relations and and such like.
38:36
Yeah, I'm wondering cause in in Quebec it's a civil law and then
38:40
in the rest of Canada it's common law.
38:41
So you're you got both in. This, of course, you're right,
38:44
yes. Yeah, yeah, in the same.
38:45
Country, yes. Yeah.
38:47
You got both in the same country, Yeah.
38:50
Yeah, when we do the training for judges that there's there's
38:54
everyone meet and then at some point the Quebec judges leave
38:57
and they'll have their own their own meeting.
39:00
Because let's say family law in Canada and family in Quebec are
39:04
under different rules. Absolutely.
39:06
Imagine. Yes, yeah.
39:08
So and then sometimes you got conferences where they're
39:12
explaining, well, this is what happens in Canada and this is
39:15
the equivalent in Quebec or vice versa.
39:18
So depending on where the litigation is in the same
39:21
country, you could have a judge making a different
39:23
interpretation because of the different rules.
39:26
Well, that's probably good news for interpreters and
39:28
translators. Oh, we don't.
39:30
We don't. We don't have no shortage of
39:31
work. Well, that sounds very positive.
39:35
Absolutely. I don't.
39:36
Yeah, I remember years ago actually did the course in
39:39
London run by an English solicitor, which is called
39:46
English Law for Non-english Lawyers.
39:50
And it was other students on the course were predominantly
39:54
continental lawyers that were some somewhat involved with UK.
39:59
And it was exactly about the parallels, or lack of, between
40:02
the case law and statutes law. Well.
40:05
Yeah, I, I'm from Quebec, so I only, I understand.
40:08
I mean, I, I'm doing a law course and it's really, I mean,
40:11
you gotta, you read the Civil Code and then look at civil and
40:15
then you find the, you find the article.
40:17
It's pretty simple. You, you just, it's like a big
40:19
manual. But.
40:21
But but then in the case law, it's like endless Netflix
40:27
production. You just go through the
40:28
president and read fascinating stories.
40:31
Part of that actually joy of, of, of doing what I do is every
40:36
new case, I'm kind of rubbing my hands in anticipation to get the
40:41
reading in materials because we read in probably, you know, not
40:47
not quite as much, but similar to the lawyers that represent
40:51
the case. So we get the materials sent to
40:53
us months in advance and you go through thousands of pages.
40:57
Wow. It's the reading in to prepare
40:59
for the case, which is all paid for, by the way.
41:01
Yeah, I was gonna ask that. OHN absolutely.
41:03
It's in the contract. I mean, you can't expect the
41:05
legal interpreter to pitch up in the court and know nothing about
41:08
the case. We had Argentinian interpreters
41:12
a few weeks ago and they were telling us that in cases like
41:17
let's say law a long term cases where interpreters are
41:21
translators are working there. Not many people wanted to work
41:25
in those cases because they only got paid at the very end of the
41:30
whole process, rather than little by little on.
41:35
Going, but we don't we. I don't get paid little by
41:38
little either, but I never work without a written contract and
41:42
my contract sets out the conditions one of them is
41:45
reading in. But doesn't it take years
41:48
sometimes to get settled? Or it might take years to get
41:53
settled, but it doesn't matter. I'm not contracting on the basis
41:56
that the there will be a final outcome and somebody will pay
42:00
me. I'm contracting with a law firm,
42:02
not a final client. OK.
42:04
A law firm gets paid by the client in advance, usually for
42:08
their litigation expenses. So regardless of the outcome of
42:12
the case, I get paid within 30 days or something.
42:17
Sometimes it takes five years for them.
42:19
To get no, that's no, it's impossible.
42:20
It would be absolutely untenable.
42:22
That's what I thought as well. No, no, no.
42:24
It's just you. You start preparing months in
42:28
advance and yeah, you get paid within.
42:33
And. Reasonable amount of time 30
42:35
days. Totally.
42:36
There's guarantees in place like for there's some of my
42:39
colleagues that that work in the court system in Ontario and, and
42:43
a lot of times safe at their, they're asked to do a two week
42:47
trial. But if they settle within the
42:48
first couple of days, then they're only paid for those two
42:51
days. And then the other days they
42:52
don't get paid because there's no trial, and then they have to
42:56
go and try to find out who work. So no, no, no, no, You sign a
43:00
contract which sets out the hearing days and if they move
43:05
something and if they move it from the 1st to the 2nd, I'll
43:08
still get paid for the 1st and the second if I can accommodate
43:11
them, if I am not engaged elsewhere and if the council.
43:14
And this happened many times in my experience.
43:17
Sometimes I'll pitch up in Stockholm and before we start
43:21
the parties settled. But it doesn't matter, I've sold
43:24
my time and they pay. People should come to you if
43:28
they need advice on on. This No, people should just
43:31
should just treat it as a business.
43:33
You know, have a contract in place.
43:34
I mean, if you deal with lawyers act as a as one hmm, have a
43:38
contract, they understand the language of contract, they
43:43
signed the contract, there is a cancellation period and the
43:46
council within the cancellation period they pay.
43:50
Yeah, I, I a long time ago when I first started my career,
43:55
someone said exactly the same thing to me.
43:58
Someone said think, think of yourself as a lawyer.
44:03
Absolutely, yeah. If you and you're not getting,
44:06
you're not getting paid by the hour here.
44:08
You're getting paid by the contract just like a lawyer
44:11
would. Yeah, well, I don't get paid by
44:15
hour. My interpreting rates are daily
44:17
rates. Maybe on specific occasions
44:22
there is a staggered rate for half a day.
44:24
But because I can't sell my other hours in the day to
44:27
anybody else, because the hearing can overrun and I cannot
44:32
abandon one client and rush to another hearing, and they
44:34
understand this. Absolutely.
44:36
That was your commitment, so you have to.
44:39
You know, they know how things are in the court, how things
44:43
change and would you like to be the client that I leave halfway
44:46
through the hearing or would you like to be the client that I
44:48
don't arrive because the other client of run and.
44:53
It's really, it's really funny how the more I talk, we talk to
44:56
interpreters from all over the world, the more I notice how
45:01
similar without having coordinated in advance how
45:05
similar our business models are. Like you're telling what what
45:08
you're telling me about your market in the UK or what you did
45:12
in Kazakhstan and all of that. There are some little things
45:16
that are different here and there, but essentially as
45:19
interpreters we seem to all have developed a very similar model.
45:25
Well, that's, that's good to hear, Allen, because I frankly
45:29
don't know much about other parts of the world, although
45:33
obviously a member of Aiken, I know few people there.
45:37
And I, I just sincerely hope that people who work in our,
45:40
especially in other countries, stick to the same philosophy
45:44
that we're service providers and we should be treated with equal
45:48
respect as lawyers and anybody else, because without us, this
45:53
things just wouldn't happen. Exactly.
45:56
Yeah, even at the federal government level, for us, it's
45:59
everything's bilingual. If there are not enough
46:01
interpreters, things don't get done.
46:03
Yeah. Grave mistakes are made.
46:08
Yes, absolutely. Well, for.
46:10
Us, it's a responsibility. For us, Parliament doesn't even
46:13
function if there are no interpreters because we have an
46:17
official language Act and if things are not been bought, if
46:21
not every committee or debates at the Parliament are not in
46:25
both French and English, then Parliament just stops.
46:29
Yeah, and I think the same happens in Europe.
46:31
Unfortunately my language is of no use in European dealings, but
46:35
they know a lot of colleagues that work particular I
46:38
colleagues that work on them European in the European
46:42
institutions and it's the same. Yeah.
46:45
So I think we, we guys, we, we just need to, you know, keep
46:49
membership associations and keep promoting the the same approach
46:54
and, and build stronger professional recognition for
46:59
ourselves, countries and different systems.
47:02
And that's I guess that's why I joined the Board and in ITI,
47:07
just because I feel strongly about the value of our
47:12
contribution. Well, I feel the same thing
47:15
about doing this podcast, that by reaching out to interpreters
47:18
all over the world, we get to expand our network.
47:22
And in a way, hopefully we'll make sure that every interpreter
47:26
out there can speak to every interpreter.
47:28
If someone watches this podcast and wants to reach you out, then
47:32
they can and then. I'm happy to, yeah, share my
47:38
pearls of wisdom. Absolutely not.
47:41
Not while you're in South Africa though.
47:43
Ohe yes. Alright, so we hope you enjoy
47:47
your trip to South Africa. Yes, absolutely will.
47:50
Yes. And before we part, I would like
47:53
to tell you guys that interpreters and translators are
47:57
welcome to join the Institute of Translators and Interpreters
48:00
conference in UK on the 1st and 2nd of July near London.
48:07
So I'll send them an e-mail. Yes, yes.
48:11
Send us if you would like, Yeah. Yeah.
48:13
And we'll we'll add it to the description of this podcast.
48:18
Yeah, so. OK, Alright.
48:20
So Brian, any last word? No, Thank you so much, Anna.
48:25
This was fascinating. I like I said, this is the first
48:27
time we've done oil and gas and it was, it was a blast, you
48:32
know? Thank you guys, it was a
48:35
pleasure. Alright everyone.
48:37
My best wishes for the forthcoming festive season.
48:41
Enjoy the snow. Thank you, thank you.
48:43
So everyone like share, subscribe and comment and all of
48:47
that and we'll meet each other for another episode next time.
48:52
Alright everyone, take care. Take care, bye.