Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / Designing Your Relationship: How to Build a Partnership That Actually Works for You w/ Ellecia Paine

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Designing Your Relationship: How to Build a Partnership That Actually Works for You w/ Ellecia Paine · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm UASU.
0:03
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
0:07
[SPEAKER_01]: What if the secret to a healthy, lasting relationship isn't finding the right person but creating the relationship that's actually right for you?
0:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Too often we inherit ideas about what love should look like without questioning whether those expectations truly fit our needs.
0:25
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're joined by Alicia Payne, relationship coach, educator, and host of nope or not monogamous, who experienced first-hand what it's like to have a relationship that looks successful from the outside, but felt empty on the inside.
0:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Through that experience, she redefined what partnership meant, and created a new vision for love.
0:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Together, we explore how to break free from the inherited shudds we carry into relationships, while wanting more doesn't mean you're asking for too much, and how to create a relationship structure built around who you truly are.
0:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the best relationship isn't the one that follows someone else's blueprint.
1:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the one that allows both people to thrive.
1:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
1:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And if this episode shifted how you think about creating a relationship, we'd love a rating or review.
1:17
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love, enjoy.
1:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We love the idea of DIYing your own relationship, because
1:32
[SPEAKER_00]: relationship is this intimate formation between the people involved and what works for some people may not work for others.
1:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've been talking about how to DIY your love life, how to DIY your relationship, and we met someone who's actually lived those terms with our own relationship.
1:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Alicia, thank you so much.
1:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks for having me.
1:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad to get into it with you.
1:57
[SPEAKER_01]: though other better place to start than your own story.
2:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you could share your relationship history at how you went from a relationship that looked good on the outside to one that was actually fulfilling on the inside or ones that were actually fulfilling on the inside.
2:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing, yeah.
2:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's see, we're to start.
2:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was one, T, three when I got married the first time.
2:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was married monogamous late for 13 years.
2:25
[SPEAKER_02]: We had all the things that you expect to see in a good relationship.
2:29
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it was like checking all the boxes, went to all the things together, we had a lot of passion, but there were a lot of things that were missing, like, what was missing so much?
2:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Like where do I start?
2:47
[SPEAKER_02]: The short story is we were married for 13 years monogamously and that that relationship came to a head because it was not fulfilling for me because it wasn't a piece of relationship and so when when when we got divorced I was like, God, I don't want to do that again.
3:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to live my life to match what somebody else's desires are, what somebody else's vision of a good relationship is
3:16
[SPEAKER_02]: to not be tied down figuratively.
3:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, I never want to be monogamous again.
3:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't know what that looked like.
3:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know anybody who wasn't monogamous.
3:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I just knew that for me, I didn't every time that in my life that I had fallen in love, I gave away all of my own, me, all of my own desires, all of my own, the big, big dreams.
3:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I gave those up to maintain connection, which is not for canful filling.
3:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, well, I want connection and I want to all those other things, but I don't want to lose myself in it.
3:55
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that mean to give up yourself to not lose the connection?
3:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you give us an example?
3:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So much of what most of us do in life is to get approval from others or to
4:06
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, if I wear this outfit, they might not like me or if I go and get that job, will it match what my partner wants their partner to be in life or for me a lot of it was travel like, oh my god, if I go on that trip and my partner can't go with me is he going to be mad is he going to be sad.
4:26
[SPEAKER_02]: am I doing something to like make him feel bad even though I'm just doing what I want to do.
4:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that was a big one.
4:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, another really big one was, but he wanted six kids and I wanted none so we compromised on to love my children.
4:40
[SPEAKER_02]: But talk about a major life decision based on what somebody else wants so that I don't lose that connection.
4:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have this quote in one of your episodes.
4:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so focused on what a relationship was supposed to look like that I lost track of what it was supposed to feel like.
4:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought that was just like such a powerful quote because I think a lot of people this happens.
5:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're so focused on getting into a relationship and you know checking those like life milestones in the marks.
5:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you mentioned abuse in the relationship, not sure how much you want to get into but like can you give more depth of like what the difference was of like what you weren't feeling versus like what it looks like on the outside?
5:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean outside looking in we had like the perfect relationship, right?
5:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Like
5:26
[SPEAKER_02]: super in love.
5:27
[SPEAKER_02]: They do everything together.
5:28
[SPEAKER_02]: They're super cute together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They're a successful.
5:31
[SPEAKER_02]: They're do, you know, they're a cute kids.
5:33
[SPEAKER_02]: They're doing all these cool things.
5:35
[SPEAKER_02]: She's an entrepreneur and he's supporting her.
5:37
[SPEAKER_02]: But in reality, I was constantly making myself smaller so that his his insecurities wouldn't be activated, which would then cause him to be a real dick.
5:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, it was like, it was such a slow thing that I didn't realize how much smaller I'd made myself.
5:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And after we got divorced, friends and family were like, oh my god, like, Alicia, you're so confident.
5:59
[SPEAKER_02]: You're so Alicia.
6:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I can't even believe that that was happening to you.
6:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, that's no, that was just like, whoa, it was happening.
6:06
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I mean, like, everything was lovely.
6:09
[SPEAKER_02]: We looked really great, but then at home, I was having like food thrown at me or being told that I was a slut before I had gotten married, which means that I'm just a bad person.
6:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would constantly kind of like, how do I say this?
6:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was trying to match the image that people had of us.
6:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I would excuse behavior that shouldn't have been excused.
6:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I would go, oh, well, maybe he is right.
6:36
[SPEAKER_02]: you know maybe maybe he he is absolutely right and there is something wrong with me because everyone else seems to like him and and thinks that this is great so maybe that's just how it actually is.
6:47
[SPEAKER_02]: In reality I look back and I'm like holy cow I cannot believe I went through that stuck around for that.
6:54
[SPEAKER_02]: because that's not who I am, but it's who I felt like I needed to be at the time.
6:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's go back to the ending of that relationship because I know the feeling of when you get all this external validation about your relationship, yet you're crumbling on the inside and how lonely that could feel, but also how hard it is to untether from that relationship because you're like, well, everybody else thinks we're perfect.
7:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't ruin their dream and they're vision of
7:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one a switch had been flipped right like like I said hey things are not going well We should separate we should we should re-evaluate this and then he came back and said on your right I have not been my best self let me let me work on this.
7:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like oh okay
7:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and then a couple months later, a couple months later, we had had a birthday party for him, and afterwards he goes, you know, a couple of months ago, you said we should separate, and I haven't thinking about that, and I think you're right.
7:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we should, I'm gonna move into the basement tomorrow, and I went.
7:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
7:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Sounds good, which was not the response he had expected.
8:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he had been bluffing because then he spent the next several months trying to win me back.
8:05
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was like once I had that that like him go, yeah, I was like, done great.
8:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
8:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there was lots of guilt.
8:15
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really hard to kind of like stick to your guns to hold to what is actually right for you when people are saying things like, but what about your family?
8:23
[SPEAKER_02]: What about your marriage?
8:25
[SPEAKER_02]: What about the kids?
8:26
[SPEAKER_02]: What about, you know, he's trying really hard.
8:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, yeah, but he could have tried really hard seven years ago, or eight years ago.
8:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, why now, there's been plenty of time.
8:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And a hold onto that is so freaking hard.
8:39
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so hard because we have a whole culture that's like you must get to the end of your relationship to be successful, which means that someone has died and now you're successful at a relationship.
8:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's insanity.
8:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's real.
8:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And you put it that way, absolutely.
8:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
8:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, I don't know if you're able to see this now, but like in hindsight, do you think like this was always kind of the relationship you had of?
9:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think he changed over the course of the relationship?
9:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Or do you think that you were just so focused on like getting to the next milestone?
9:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess, yeah, what was going on for you?
9:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's kind of like both, right?
9:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we were 19 and 22 when we got together.
9:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So everybody changes.
9:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, this is who he always was.
9:29
[SPEAKER_02]: This is how it always was, but it just slowly became more and more and more.
9:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's so slow that you don't notice it, right?
9:39
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I don't want to rock the boat.
9:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just not going to say how I really feel about this thing because it's not worth a fight.
9:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I know he'll be upset about it until I'm living my entire life, just trying not to upset my partner, which holy cow, how many of us freaking do that?
9:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, there were so many things.
9:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So it didn't start out that way, but it did start out very passionate
10:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was always very intense, which, you know, was felt really good at the time like, oh my god, this person really freaking loves me and they're really into me and this feels amazing.
10:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it'd be like, one night, oh my god, he's really upset.
10:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Just as passionately mad at me, as when he loved me 12 hours ago.
10:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the next day, just as passionately apologizing,
10:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it was like lots of passion, lots of intensity in a really unhealthy way.
10:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could see, especially, like, I mean, I think of all, this isn't like, I mean, to any one of any age, but I think, especially when you're younger, too, like, that's what you see as romantic.
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, that's what we see in rom-coms.
10:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, if someone isn't so passionate, you're like, do they like me?
10:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Or are they into me?
10:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
10:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Turns out you can actually have all that passion without the ups and downs.
10:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
10:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It took me a long time to realize that as well.
10:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what a concept, which brings us back to your quote, what a relationship should look like versus what it should feel like.
11:03
[SPEAKER_00]: How did you arrive at what a relationship should feel like describe that feeling?
11:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Gosh, that's a really good question.
11:09
[SPEAKER_02]: So that feeling for me.
11:12
[SPEAKER_02]: is not a lot of ups and downs.
11:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of stability, right?
11:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of speaking my own thoughts, emotions, ideas, desires, wishes, and not feeling, I mean, sure, sometimes there's fear to say the things, but like not feeling like this is, if I say this thing, I'm going to be in trouble or my relationship is going to end.
11:35
[SPEAKER_02]: more like if I say this thing, I might have to get into a whole conversation about it.
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is a really big difference.
11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a big difference.
11:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think like I can totally relate to that like I think back in other partnerships or just maybe when I didn't do as much self-work like I thought anything I said with like D-rail the relationship.
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So therefore I didn't say anything and then in my current relationship, yes it's hard to break things up because you're right you're not going to just be able to ignore it after but like I know like we can work through it and there's a big difference of like the hard that comes with both of those.
12:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
12:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
12:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So none of that intensity is what you're saying.
12:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the intensity you felt in your previous marriage is not something you're chasing after in a relationship.
12:20
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
12:21
[UNKNOWN]: No.
12:24
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I like, I like intense.
12:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I have someone.
12:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I am someone who is super overindulgent.
12:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to have all of the experiences, all the flavors, all of the feelings.
12:34
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't read like the flip side of that is the big anxiety and the big fear and the big feeling unsure.
12:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want that.
12:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So everything else has to kind of level out a little bit too.
12:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean there's also like the school of that like your partner should be like a safe place so you can kind of experience that stuff that comes in other parts of life like you could have the experiences or even if you've stressors in job like in your career.
13:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not coming from your partner.
13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that you're not going to have an eventful life if you're with someone that's more stable.
13:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see people and maybe you went through this.
13:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, okay, well, I found the person.
13:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I have kids on the outside.
13:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I have it all and maybe I should be grateful for this.
13:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm asking too much.
13:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, to turn and ask for something else.
13:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you ever go through thought process like that?
13:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
13:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Who am I to want more than this?
13:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not that bad.
13:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's
13:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Who am I to want even more than all things that I have but like I don't know We're really taught to settle.
13:42
[SPEAKER_02]: We're really taught to settle and that there's like scarcity Like oh my god, if you get one if you get it find a good a decent partner one that's good enough
13:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Why would you ever give that up for the potential of having something even better?
13:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And being someone who's polyamorous, and I don't have to give that up now to also have more.
14:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I see this like abundance of great people.
14:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's plenty of terrible people out there.
14:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And.
14:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And just for the record, I'm not saying that.
14:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are so many really great people as well.
14:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this idea that like we have to compete for that like one decent partner that's good enough and and checks enough boxes like no you can actually you can have all the things.
14:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really glad you said that and I think people should like rewind and listen to that again because I think that's something that we hear a lot that people get discouraged like there's no one good out there and like I like what you said like yeah there are shitty people out there let's like knowledge that know it's to medicake that but also there's a lot of amazing people out there and it's our job to just not let these bad eggs like do you rail us from finding these good people.
14:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So how did you get from being in a marriage with someone who was not the right fit for you?
15:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, well, being in abusive relationships, so someone not great, to then arriving at polyamory as the answer, because people can go one of two ways.
15:15
[SPEAKER_00]: One way, most people go is fuck everybody.
15:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't need anybody.
15:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't want to go through that again, but what you did was open the door for more people and more options.
15:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So how did you arrive at that?
15:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I was really horny.
15:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Simple answer.
15:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Love the honesty.
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, I'm not even going to try to make this poetic.
15:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I was 35 years old.
15:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Had had a handful of orgasms in my life.
15:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, there's, I want, like, on top of, like, wanting all of the love and security and all the good things.
15:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I want to have, like, I feel like there could be more pleasure available.
15:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I started studying and researching how to have more pleasure, and that kind of led me down a path to where I wound up becoming a relationship, a sex-level relationship coach.
16:03
[SPEAKER_02]: In that, I was like, I don't want to like, we do this thing where we go, here's someone who's like, I'm having fun sex with, or I'm having a great connection with, I don't want to lose this, so this is it.
16:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got to hold on to this.
16:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, but like, what if there's more, like, I did that thing and like had like a long term relationship and then sex kind of went, man, you know, and then kept trying to rekindle it and for, you know, lots of reasons, but I was like, I want more.
16:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to be told that I can't have the things that I want.
16:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to be told that I have to settle and I did not know what polyamory was had no I did never heard of it.
16:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had heard of swingers, which seemed really weird.
16:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, but when people are just dating, they just date multiple people.
16:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that seems normal to me.
16:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, so I'll just be slutty and be honest with people about what I'm doing, because that's just seems like the right thing to do.
16:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I started meeting people who were also non-monogamous.
16:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh, this is a thing that people do.
17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, actually, like, this isn't just an idea I had.
17:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it was like a couple of weeks later.
17:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I met my second husband at the time.
17:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think he was going to be.
17:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But he
17:13
[SPEAKER_02]: He was like, oh, I'm polyamorous.
17:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm dating this couple.
17:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I might really love my very first true love live several states away.
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, polyamory, I don't know.
17:21
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like a culture something.
17:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand.
17:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, yeah, I was like, but like, I'll go on a date with you.
17:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And then after that date, he was like, God, you're everything I've been looking for.
17:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, no, absolutely not.
17:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I am not.
17:33
[SPEAKER_02]: How does that matter?
17:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But he's like, no, no, no, don't get me wrong.
17:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, keep doing what you're doing.
17:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Date.
17:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So your oats never stop, like what you're doing is amazing, keep doing it, and also I want to continue to beat in your life while you do that.
17:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, hey, that seems kind of hot.
17:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm into it for maybe a little bit.
17:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And then within a few months, I was in love.
17:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I love you.
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You've been married.
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like how long to take you to that place.
17:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're like, oh, I see you different.
18:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Our nine year wedding anniversary was last a couple of like two weeks ago, we've been with our 11 years.
18:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Nice.
18:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've never been monogamous together.
18:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
18:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
18:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
18:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have in our audience, I would say the majority of them are
18:18
[SPEAKER_01]: are monogamous or looking for monogamous relationships.
18:21
[SPEAKER_01]: We do have some polyfokes or polycurious folks, so this is definitely, I'm sure, interesting to those people especially, but for the more monogamous people, because I do think this concept of designing the right relationship for you does not end, like it completely applies to monogamy in my opinion.
18:40
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some ways that, like, you can look at other should's in the relationship and figure out how to design something that works for you and your partner instead of just like conforming to the way relationship should be?
18:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first thing, and I do any time like people who are non-monogamous, polyamorous, whatever, monogamous, like doesn't matter the structure.
19:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Anytime someone comes to me, the first thing I have them do is define monogamy.
19:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Because nobody has the same definition.
19:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Does that mean you only have sex with one person in your life?
19:11
[SPEAKER_02]: One person at a time, one person a day?
19:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, nobody has the same definition.
19:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Does it mean that we only have sex with each other, but we're allowed to cuddle with our friends?
19:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Or does it mean that we make out with people and only have intercourse with each other?
19:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Or does it mean that our monogamous except for if we're in different zip codes?
19:30
[SPEAKER_02]: everybody has a different definition of what that means.
19:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think if you start there, that's the very first place to start creating a relationship that actually works for you, because we all kind of think that we're all coming from the same place.
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Like everyone, we all know what it means, right?
19:46
[SPEAKER_02]: At the number of times I've seen people say things like, well, you know what you did wrong.
19:50
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, I don't.
19:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just talking to a friend what did I do wrong you made me feel jealous never do that thing that makes me feel jealous which now means like we just live in a box and never look at anybody outside of our house and those don't really work for most people so first what does monogamy mean to each of you what did it look like when you were growing up what did it look like in your family and you're
20:12
[SPEAKER_02]: culture in the media that you watched, right?
20:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And then like what we're the really get into it, what feels like crossing the line for you?
20:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, and I think people think if they have that conversation that they're like setting rules for each other, but like you can both come with your own ideas and then create, create the like middle ground.
20:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that setting expectations because everybody does have a very different definition of what even infidelity looks like.
20:38
[SPEAKER_00]: What is flirting look like?
20:40
[SPEAKER_00]: What is okay flirting and what is not okay flirting?
20:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So having aligned definitions that you get to create together is such an important foundation.
20:49
[SPEAKER_00]: What I do find extremely unique about your story, Elisia, is that you started out non-monogamous, most of the couples that we've interviewed on our show start out monogamous, and then they open up their marriage or open up their relationship.
21:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You started out polyamorous with your now husband.
21:07
[SPEAKER_00]: What did that conversation look like of asking, because obviously you didn't come to the table saying, what does monogamy mean to you?
21:13
[SPEAKER_00]: But how did you define the, I guess, the rules and the boundaries?
21:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, so I mean 11 years in it's they're very different than they were 11 years ago.
21:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we went through several iterations and a lot of it was both of us were kind of figuring out what relationships meant for us, what we wanted out of a relationship.
21:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So there were a lot of conversations about that and then you know we had like these ideals both of us had our idea like this would be great for me it was like I want to have sex with people.
21:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so excited and for him it was like I love
21:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So he has the biggest polyamorous heart.
21:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he also wanted to have sex with people, but he was just really like, he just he's like, I fall in love with people and I never stop loving them.
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you know, I just want to be gay.
22:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, no, I just want to like, you know, I just want to do the fun part.
22:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want the emotional part, stop it, stop making me feel jealous and insecure and possessive.
22:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
22:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Damn it, I guess I have to deal with that.
22:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, even though we started out open, I don't think it was necessarily easier, because we still had to figure out what are the things that make us feel insecure, what are the things that help us build security in our relationship, what are the things that, you know, what are our agreements not just around relationships,
22:33
[SPEAKER_02]: time spent with people like we and it shifted a lot like we started out kind of like having three sums of the friends and then I took him to a swingers club for his birthday and then he fell in love with our neighbor and then you know like it was just like this this progression of different ways of relating so it's changed a lot
22:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of talking, lots of talking.
22:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's important to point out though, because like any long-term relationship, things are going to change.
23:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if you're like, stay monogamous or whatever it is, like that doesn't mean that life is going to stay the same way for 30, 40, 50 years or however long you're together.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess, like, outside of just, you know, monogamy, non-monogamy, like sexual encounters and relationships, what about, like, the shudders around kind of how you operate a relationship?
23:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we see this a lot that when someone's like, I want a relationship.
23:31
[SPEAKER_01]: That can mean one thing to one person.
23:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like totally different to another.
23:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, one person can be like, I see you once a week.
23:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other person's like, we spend every day together and every second together.
23:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We're close.
23:41
[SPEAKER_01]: constantly messaging.
23:42
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you help people like figure out and work with a partner to be like, okay, what is our relationship?
23:48
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really good because as you were saying that I was thinking, like, gosh, there's the beginning of a relationship where we want all of this person, we want more more, more, more, give me more, right, that new relationship energy.
24:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And then as it settles in, it's like, and actually I want to like, live my life as well.
24:05
[SPEAKER_02]: What that makes me think of is
24:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
24:11
[SPEAKER_02]: We make these agreements based on what we think we want.
24:14
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I want I want to be monogamous.
24:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I want us to spend all of our time together I want us to have kids and a dog and a white pick at fence and then five years later you're like, well, I want to just hang out with my friends and actually I only want the one kid because that was a lot and I'm tired of picking up dog poop So let's not get another dog We can't have a white pick at fence because we sure as fuck can't afford that in this economy
24:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So, um, and then, and then to have your partner go, but that's not what you said you wanted.
24:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, you, you, you, you have to constantly reevaluate.
24:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so important to keep coming back because as much as we think like I know everything about this person that I'm relating with, you don't because there are new person today.
24:54
[SPEAKER_02]: They're different than they were yesterday.
24:55
[SPEAKER_02]: They had different life experiences and when you have life experiences, you learn what you liked and what you didn't like and what you want to keep doing and what you
25:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to keep coming back and going, okay, now today, what do you want?
25:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that sounds, I mean, obviously I 100% agree in terms of like people are always changing, but like I can also see it from the other person's perspective of like, but I wanted to kids and now you're saying you only want one.
25:20
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you navigate those types of relational growth and change?
25:25
[SPEAKER_02]: right, right, while staying true to yourself and like who you really are and what you really desire, it's hard.
25:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's probably one of the most magical things about relationships is that they aren't just easy.
25:37
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't just fill out an order form at the beginning and then that's what you get for the rest of your life.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:42
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be really freaking boring.
25:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
25:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So here.
25:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's something I like to think of.
25:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is your North Star?
25:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is your like most truest desire?
25:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the deepest, most important.
25:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what are your shared values?
25:53
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the thing that keeps you together when things are hard?
25:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Besides, I made a commitment.
26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: and then going okay now what underneath that is flexible right what underneath that North Star what are all the things that come below that are flexible or have wiggle room or what do we not see as options right because you only know what you know if you don't see what all of the options are and so you're going well I don't want to tell him
26:20
[SPEAKER_02]: that I don't want to move, but he wants to move.
26:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not going to tell him because then I will be making life harder on him or not giving him the thing he wants.
26:31
[SPEAKER_02]: But if I just actually say the thing and then he'll come back and be like, oh, God, I don't want to move either.
26:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I just thought you did, right?
26:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, you have to talk about all the things because you actually don't know what your partner is going to say or what they're going to think.
26:45
[SPEAKER_02]: You think you do, but you don't.
26:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a good point about it because yeah, like clearly there could be a misalignment if one of you still wants the two kids at one has one But also you don't know like maybe they've changed their mode, too, because people are always changing.
26:59
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good thing to me now.
27:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or maybe they're like, oh yeah, I don't want to kids now because like we have seven nieces and nephews that are over all the time, right?
27:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know what I mean like maybe there's another piece there that that wasn't talked about before because it didn't exist
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's a little bit of that unwiring that I'm still trying to do in my mind is I was always taught that in relationships there's some things you do for your partner that you may not want to do but it is in service of your partner and I'll give you an example is
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: In a partnership, maybe one person is like, I really need to take one big trip a year.
27:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other person is like, I really don't want to travel, but I'll do it for you because that's what makes you happy.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And then because I know that when I go to that football game once a year, you come with me, not because you want to, because it makes me happy.
27:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So where did draw the line of I also want to be in service of my partner and satisfy their needs?
27:58
[SPEAKER_00]: But is there a boundary of, well, I really don't want to do that.
28:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So I shouldn't be obligated to do it.
28:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I do agree that like we always have to, no, we don't have to.
28:09
[SPEAKER_02]: we can choose to compromise and push outside our comfort zone or do things that we just don't want to do.
28:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the line is at the point that it becomes self-sacrifice, where you become where you are sacrificing a part of who you are, you're
28:26
[SPEAKER_02]: authentic part of you and overriding your own boundaries, right?
28:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're true like this is who I am and this is important to me That's where the line right like if you go to one football game You're probably not like overriding your boundaries, but let's say like every Snack of ice and flowers.
28:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for like every weekend That's all the person wanted to do and you had no life at a war that it could get different.
28:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, or you're just really against concussions
28:52
[SPEAKER_00]: and they're like, I can't support a sport, we're gonna go, I'm sorry, you know, every game.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it gets like, it comes back to your value system too.
29:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or it's really loud and overwhelming, and I get sensory overwhelm, and I feel really bad for three days afterward.
29:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Things like that are really important consideration, right?
29:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the, I had a partner who would, um, anytime we bought concert tickets,
29:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We'd say, hey, do you want to go to the concert with us?
29:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And she'd be like, yeah, I'll go.
29:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't really want to go.
29:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care about that band, but I want to go and be with you.
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And the experience I wound up having was of having people with me that weren't enjoying themselves, that weren't, didn't actually want to be there.
29:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And I felt like, well, if I leave you here to go up front and really just enjoy this music, then you're going to be left alone.
29:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So now I'm not enjoying this show the way I wanted to enjoy it.
29:39
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not enjoying it because you never were going to enjoy it in the first place.
29:42
[SPEAKER_02]: He just wanted to meet with me.
29:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So I finally, I set a boundary.
29:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I said, look, I'm not inviting people to concerts with me that don't actually want to go to that concert because they like that artist or they are open to like, I want to experience this.
29:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I'm not doing that anymore.
29:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a bi-two tickets.
29:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to pick someone to go with me who actually wants to be there.
30:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Rather than just because we're partners and we should do everything together.
30:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And now I have so much better experiences.
30:06
[SPEAKER_01]: know that that makes a lot of sense then you can also be like okay what do they enjoy and let's find another activity like it's not like I'm never going to see this person again because that yeah we did so many fun things that weren't that thing that she didn't enjoy this is what's so enticing about polyamory
30:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because you have multiple partners who have varying interests that you can probably one likes a concert, one likes sushi, one likes travel, and you can hang out with everybody.
30:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But in a monogamous relationship, what advice would you give to people who, I don't know, like know that their partner can't satisfy all these needs.
30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do without with your friends?
30:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
30:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have to have other people at your life.
30:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do.
30:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Seriously, I think the most important thing you can do to create relationships that are going to last a long time and work for you is have community.
30:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:59
[SPEAKER_02]: We have this culture that is very isolating that says like your partner has to be everything for you.
31:05
[SPEAKER_02]: You have a handle all your problems internally.
31:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You deal.
31:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You
31:09
[SPEAKER_02]: all your joys internally like everything internally and there's this hierarchical structure of this one person has to do everything with you and you have to have all the same hobbies and joys and food likes like all the things but that is so I even if they are wonderful it's still very isolating you need people outside of that to go have fun with to vent
31:32
[SPEAKER_02]: about things with to support both of you if something happens in your relationship, you know, say one of you gets sick, you need support people, you need community, honestly community, and having friendships and family and whatever you can build outside of the relationship is the most important part.
31:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm all for friends.
31:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I literally have like nine brides beds, so like friendship has she does.
31:57
[SPEAKER_01]: A very strong pillar for me for many years and well into my relationship.
32:01
[SPEAKER_01]: That being said, I feel like my partner is more introverted.
32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we see this a lot with guys and like all my friends, their partners are more friends with each other and they don't have as big of community and this is something very common.
32:16
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing that's worked for me, obviously it's him continuing to reach out and hang out with people, but also he's okay doing things alone.
32:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And like for instance, like I like going to concerts with him, but he's the driver of that, like he's the one that's the real passion.
32:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd say for every the reconstruits he goes to, I probably go to one.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's like finding that balance too, like I think, yes, in an ideal world, you have community, but also want to like,
32:43
[SPEAKER_01]: point out for anyone that's like doesn't because we do have listters right in that are like, yeah, all cool.
32:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, have friends, but like, I don't have it.
32:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think there are different ways, though, that you can like build kind of that time apart.
32:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean like you're not living a separate life from the other person.
33:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Unless you both decide to do that by all needs go for it.
33:04
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's finding like ways that you don't drain each other either.
33:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, 100%.
33:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And one that's just it, right?
33:10
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a whole society of isolated people that don't have their own friend groups.
33:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like, nobody is alone in that, actually.
33:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
33:21
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a whole lot of lonely people going.
33:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to find one person to feel all my, all my holes.
33:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Figuredively.
33:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh... Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha
33:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think though pushing people like in pushing yourself out of your comfort zone to meet new people even when you're in a relationship that is really important, whether that's spouse's friends or going to a meet up or engaging with coworkers, whatever that might be, I think that helps you like have a more well routed life for sure, yeah, we're volunteering or you know, like just finding something that is something anything that is not a shared all the time experience.
34:08
[SPEAKER_01]: right or your own hobby, like there's many ways to do this.
34:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
34:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And you mentioned that you were balancing emotions of jealousy and insecurity when you first enter this relationship as we all do in all relationships.
34:26
[SPEAKER_00]: How have you been able to overcome those feelings or I guess maybe not even overcome but navigate those feelings?
34:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because what if in those examples we just
34:37
[SPEAKER_00]: you really like doing something with your partner and you find out that he's actually sharing that experience with someone else.
34:44
[SPEAKER_00]: How would you navigate something like that?
34:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I've always been a very jealous and possessive person, which I think is why I was monogamous for so long because I was like, that's uncomfortable.
34:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like that.
34:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's taken me a long
35:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And probably my favorite, my favorite tool, my favorite way to figure out what to do in those kinds of situations is to take the romance out of it.
35:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of thinking about this person as my partner, and now I'm feeling jealous or envious that they're doing that with someone else, is thinking of them as my friend.
35:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
35:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, my friend is going to a concert with another friend.
35:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm envious.
35:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to go, but like, have fun.
35:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope it's amazing.
35:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, especially with something you don't like to do.
35:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, versus like, my partner is doing a thing and now I feel left out and abandoned and rejected.
35:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I try to take though any time I'm having a hard feeling, I take the romance out of the equation and go, how would I feel if this were my buddy, this were my best friend?
35:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the same feelings come up like Julie, you've definitely, you don't like the feeling being left out, even with friends.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you, how do you get over that feeling?
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Because what if your partner is doing something that you truly love to do, but with someone else?
35:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's easier if they, if you don't like to do it.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I can just be as funny.
36:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there if you find that as cool.
36:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Or like they're having a dinner party with some of your mutual friends and you're not invited.
36:11
[SPEAKER_00]: What, what do you do?
36:13
[SPEAKER_02]: If you left out, I lay on the floor and cry.
36:15
[SPEAKER_01]: That would do.
36:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it will for a minute.
36:22
[SPEAKER_02]: No, yeah, that's so real, right?
36:25
[SPEAKER_02]: That's such a normal experience to have, but I think what's important is to know that doesn't mean that doesn't mean something bad about you.
36:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to mean you are now going to be alone and never invited to another thing for the rest of your life.
36:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I go and find something fun to do.
36:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether that's like watching a movie and embroidering with my dog or your dog embroidered.
36:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
36:51
[SPEAKER_00]: He's so impressed.
36:52
[SPEAKER_02]: He really, he really helps keep track of everything for me and I assume too like you would talk to your partner.
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Like let's say I'm just using this dinner party example.
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: If that was something you felt left out of, maybe there would be a new kind of boundary of like these little types of things we potentially talk about or do together or like how would you approach it with someone or would you just be like that is their thing.
37:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I would, okay, now what I would do.
37:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say, I had a lot of FOMO.
37:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I really hate missing out.
37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I fell left out.
37:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And if the opportunity comes up that I can be invited next time, I would love that.
37:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to know, I would love to be there.
37:33
[SPEAKER_02]: But also, you're not bad or in trouble or you aren't losing me because of that.
37:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that.
37:40
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're telling someone that your desire actually is to be included.
37:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but also I don't want to be included just because I threw a fit.
37:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be because you want me there.
37:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
37:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
37:54
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's a really good way to do it.
37:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll remember that even with friends.
38:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you're not in trouble, like you're, I'm not telling you all for anything.
38:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just telling you how I feel and I will like conclude it next time.
38:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that piece is important because one, we hate hurting people that we care about.
38:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to feel bad.
38:15
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't feel like we did something wrong, right?
38:16
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to get in trouble.
38:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then we wind up do it that's how we go down the path of doing things we don't actually want to do well.
38:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to invite them every time because even though this would probably, you know, this friend group doesn't match with this friend group.
38:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to be the one that anybody's mad at so I'm just going to smash them all together.
38:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
38:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
38:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So your household now is you, your husband and triad partners that correct or is that outdated that's a little bit outdated.
38:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
38:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, chat, jeep, you see a little bit outdated.
38:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
38:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so now my husband.
38:53
[SPEAKER_02]: myself.
38:54
[SPEAKER_02]: We actually both have other partners that stay over a couple times a week.
39:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also our three kids, all right.
39:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Was there ever a triad partners that like completely falls?
39:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
39:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So actually, we didn't get it totally wrong.
39:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just what I wanted to say.
39:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, our girlfriend lived with us for part-time for seven years and now she because her and my husband have actually split up so so she doesn't live with us anymore but she's still definitely around.
39:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
39:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And you said three kids and we have three kids yeah.
39:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay and then we're we're some we're I guess we're how many of those were from the first marriage.
39:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so all of them actually, I have two and he has one I see I say and the oldest two are the same age They're a month apart and they were like five when we got together.
39:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I guess this is a selfish question that I will ask you because it's top of mind for me.
39:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah
39:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like children is another element of a lot of shudds of like, now I should be living my life a certain way, I should be doing this, I should be not doing this anymore.
40:03
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you kind of like design a life that works for you with kids in mind as well instead of just falling into like the norm or things that didn't feel authentic to you?
40:15
[SPEAKER_01]: feels hard.
40:17
[SPEAKER_01]: It is hard.
40:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so hard.
40:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And the thing I always remind myself of is that what is best for the parent, not what the parent wants, but what is best for the parent is best for the kids.
40:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
40:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Children who have happy parents live happier lives.
40:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Children who have parents who are abandoning themselves over writing their own boundaries, putting up with bad behavior are that's the example they're setting that's what they're teaching their children to do in their life.
40:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what I constantly come back to is what is best for the parent is what's best for the kids, which is so odd if you think about it because what is that stat like 73% of Mary people stay together because of kids yet they're probably on happy and setting a bad example for the kids and the kids can sense the
41:09
[SPEAKER_00]: dissatisfaction in the household.
41:11
[SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to do the right thing, but in turn doing the wrong thing.
41:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's why we have a relationship problem today.
41:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Where nobody knows how to have a good relationship because nobody has had, not nobody, but most people have not had a good example.
41:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So we talk a lot about conscious relationships, and conscious dating, and building that with your partner,
41:34
[SPEAKER_01]: having check kids, constantly reevaluating like we're talking about.
41:38
[SPEAKER_01]: But then one about when you have kids in the picture, it life becomes busier and there's last time to devote to like nurturing your relationship.
41:47
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you, in your partner, navigate this?
41:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like if you will need to know that, like, I have always tell people the hard parts about having kids because I love my kids.
41:53
[SPEAKER_01]: My kids are freaking awesome.
41:54
[SPEAKER_01]: They are so good.
41:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't know what to do with my kids, I don't
42:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like it's not all cake and bubbles and fun like it's hard work and so you have to do things like set boundaries like actually put the kids to bed on time so that you have time with your partner right like you have to have boundaries with the kids as well.
42:28
[SPEAKER_02]: because you have to be able to make time.
42:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, have community, you have to find it.
42:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Somehow, somehow, that should be a priority because raising kids in a bubble and not having somebody to babysit, not having someone to hang out with the kids while you have a conversation with your partner.
42:46
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, not having just multiple people having influence on kids.
42:50
[SPEAKER_02]: is hard on everyone.
42:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard on everyone.
42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's one of the things actually that I love about being polyamorous and having multiple relationships and multiple really loving caring long-term adults in my kids lives.
43:01
[SPEAKER_02]: They have multiple people that they go to.
43:03
[SPEAKER_02]: They have multiple safe people that they can call up.
43:05
[SPEAKER_02]: They have people that will hang out with them that will give them advice that will give them different perspectives.
43:10
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, is there teenagers now?
43:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Each of my kids have different people that they go to for life advice and they have that because
43:19
[SPEAKER_02]: held true to what was right for me in relationships and creating communities that that support my family unit.
43:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really important.
43:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's not easy.
43:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I've definitely seen that with some of my friends at Armandogov, so it's not even poly situations, but they have a lot of friends.
43:43
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll have them over.
43:45
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll be like, okay, we're going to have like, you know,
43:47
[SPEAKER_01]: back in the day, maybe they could just like go out and do whatever and clearly that's not the case anymore, but they'll be like, we're going to have a barbecue like come on over and then like there's other kids there, there's other adults there and the kids like are part of it, but we're not like focusing in like revolving the whole experience around the child either.
44:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And I actually see that those kids tend to be happier even though like,
44:12
[SPEAKER_01]: they're getting quote unquote less attention and of course I'm saying all this is like non-parent so like maybe one day I'll be like the total opposite who knows but like I feel like to me watching and observing I'm like this is such the way to go over like my life is now ruled by my child.
44:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep
44:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, 100%.
44:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Kids learn through experience and observation.
44:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Watching adults have healthy relationships, is how kids learn how to have healthy relationships.
44:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've actually read somewhere that in the school system, they're asking teachers to ask different questions to the kids now.
44:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Before it's always like, tell me about your dad, tell me about your mom.
44:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Now it's tell me about the female figures in your life.
44:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about the influential male figures in your life.
44:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So, the kids can start elevating the roles of the other people, not just everything on their parents, and we also know many households, there may be not a dad or a mom, a traditional mom.
45:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So, have the kids define who those roles are.
45:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I find that fascinating.
45:13
[SPEAKER_00]: But to your kids, if we were to ask them to explain your marriage to us, what would they say?
45:20
[SPEAKER_00]: How would they describe it?
45:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a really good question.
45:25
[SPEAKER_02]: It depends on the kid.
45:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say the most vocal one.
45:31
[SPEAKER_02]: They describe it.
45:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard them describe it as that they have three moms and two dads and then people are like, what?
45:39
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, well yeah, my dad has two partners that are both my mom and then my biological mom and then my stepdad.
45:46
[SPEAKER_02]: But they don't talk about like, I don't think any of them really describe
45:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it just kind of- They don't use like poly.
45:54
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't use open or poly or any of those words.
45:57
[SPEAKER_02]: They might.
45:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know the one kid says, yeah, my parents are polyamorous.
46:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably is like the other one.
46:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
46:03
[SPEAKER_02]: My son, I know he has come home and been like, oh, my friends think you're the mom from sex education.
46:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, they don't, I don't think they really describe it.
46:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It just is.
46:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
46:16
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some tools that like you and your partners still use today to like create this authentic relationship?
46:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Anything tangible that you can maybe leave our audience.
46:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Google Calendar.
46:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Woo!
46:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We've heard that from so many people.
46:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
46:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's see here.
46:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Checking in.
46:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Checking in all the time.
46:39
[SPEAKER_02]: How did that feel?
46:40
[SPEAKER_02]: How did that?
46:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything I could do differently next time?
46:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Always reevaluate in.
46:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of just so much of it is just really talking about all the things which is not was not my experience.
46:50
[SPEAKER_02]: My first marriage, it was a lot of assumption, a lot of just going along to get along and then sweeping arguments or just anything that we might not get like agree on sweeping it all under the rug and just kind of rushing it over Which is what I see a lot so it really it comes back to like a lot of communication and a lot of talking Even if we even like really unpolished communication if we like don't know the right thing to say and just saying I don't know what the right thing to say here is so here's what I'm thinking
47:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:21
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, this conversation has been so interesting.
47:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think there's a few takeaways I have.
47:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one is that it never ends.
47:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's always constant development and growth of your partner.
47:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think this conversation helped me reset expectations of like expecting to be adaptable.
47:40
[SPEAKER_01]: instead of like thrown off course when that happens.
47:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that's just like the only thing we can control is understanding that things are going to change and how do we work together to change and grow together instead of get to a stage of like, wait, you wanted this and now you don't and is this relationship over because of that?
47:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one thing's fall apart.
48:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think also my other big takeaway, I mean, uh, I can see this even like living and breathing in a relationship, just like the need for over communication a lot of times.
48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think I've gone through a lot of different stages of what communication means.
48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would also say maybe a takeaway is like you discussed defining the Nogamy, defining communication because
48:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such a broad word, and I think back in the day before I was in a serious relationship, I thought communication was just like texting and being in contact.
48:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I thought like, oh, it's like discussing conflict.
48:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm like, okay, it's that too.
48:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still communicating, making plans.
48:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all of those, but it's also just like small things, too, of like,
48:44
[SPEAKER_01]: misinterpretation happening and be able to like voice that so we get ahead of it and it could be as simple as like oh I thought our plan today was X, Y, and Z and like actually talking through what that's gonna be like things Sometimes I'm like oh this seems obvious.
49:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had to reframe and be like actually we need to talk about and that's okay nothing is obvious
49:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing is obvious.
49:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's the takeaway.
49:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing is obvious.
49:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that the truth?
49:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I find that with my parents too, just communicating with them.
49:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they know me.
49:18
[SPEAKER_00]: They're my parents.
49:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I know them so well and everything's like this default thinking.
49:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when I actually ask questions, I get surprised all the time.
49:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no idea my mom felt this way.
49:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know my dad was feeling this way.
49:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a good practice for everybody in our lives.
49:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have, I think I have two surprising thoughts that came out of this conversation.
49:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The first one is not as surprising, but it's more clear to me now that the key to a successful relationship really is safety.
49:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Like from everything we've talked about today, it's about safety.
49:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we've spent so many years researching on how to keep the spark alive.
49:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That's who the fuck cares and you don't feel safe in a relationship.
50:03
[SPEAKER_00]: The spark comes from feeling safe with your partner.
50:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in a non monogamous relationship, that safety is even more amplified and it has to be communicated even more.
50:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate this overcommunication so that you can reach a level of safety with your partner, both physically and psychologically.
50:24
[SPEAKER_00]: The second kind of surprising thought I just had as we're talking about all of this is a relationship can really work in an incubator, in a bubble, but it may not work in a community.
50:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And because we're in a such an isolated world right now that we
50:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It might need to do more exposure of our relationships to a community that may actually be the answer to this love crisis that we're feeling and I know in my last relationship it worked out so well during COVID because it's just a two of us and the moment we exposed us to the environment it kind of fell apart because we didn't know how to relate to.
51:07
[SPEAKER_00]: the environment around us.
51:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So in a beginning relationship in dating, I'm not saying like, go take your date on go out with your friends.
51:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to take your date or anything like that.
51:18
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it is okay to expose your partner to your immediate circle, a little bit sooner.
51:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And then start hanging out and integrating them more.
51:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that is what we're really
51:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
51:36
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been such a good perspective.
51:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for all of our listeners, no matter if you're a monogamous, non-monogamous curious, whatever is going on for you, there's a lot here if you are looking for a deep, conscious relationship.
51:52
[SPEAKER_01]: This is an episode.
51:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people need to listen to multiple times.
51:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, and at least if people want to find out more about you, where can they go?
52:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my podcast is nope.
52:02
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not monogamous, and it's on all the podcast places.
52:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can find me on Instagram or Facebook, at elisiopane, and my website's elisiopane.com.
52:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm all those places.
52:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome, everywhere.
52:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
52:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So you don't miss an episode.
52:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.