Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Fighting About Loading The Dishwasher? Listen To This

Transcript

Fighting About Loading The Dishwasher? Listen To This · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
• 0:08
  Today I'm going to talk about fights, about loading the
• 0:11
  dishwasher or any other, you know, very, very minor sort of
• 0:17
  thing and what this really means about your relationship and your
• 0:21
  individual mental health. And before that, please do
• 0:24
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• 0:38
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• 0:52
  awesome. And they are much different than
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  the main Facebook page. So anyway, what do I mean by
• 0:57
  saying that it's stupid fights? OK, 'cause that is my my
• 1:03
  strongly considered philosophical position is that
• 1:07
  it is stupid to fight about how the dishwasher is loaded and why
• 1:12
  Why not? Because I'm.
• 1:14
  I'm looking down on anybody. People fight about all sorts of
• 1:17
  things all the time, but that isn't what you're really
• 1:20
  fighting about. It's just not frequently.
• 1:24
  Even more frequently now I see on my list serve people going in
• 1:27
  to therapy because they are fighting about the household
• 1:31
  chores and they want somebody who can work with a client about
• 1:34
  that. That is not a specialty because
• 1:37
  this is not the problem. The problem isn't household
• 1:40
  chore management. If you are a healthy couple and
• 1:43
  securely attached and you love each other and you grew up
• 1:47
  seeing a happy family, there are not very frequent or really
• 1:51
  frequent at all or really happen at all.
• 1:54
  Fights like fights about things like this, that's just the
• 1:58
  truth. So it isn't like everybody
• 2:00
  fights about stuff like that. Plenty of people don't.
• 2:03
  They don't at all fight about things like that.
• 2:05
  They don't fight about whether it is better to clean the sink
• 2:10
  in one way or another, or how to wipe down the counter, or how to
• 2:16
  store things in the garage. They just don't.
• 2:18
  Whoever cares more just kind of sweeps it and the other person
• 2:22
  does what that person wants. What are the situations when
• 2:27
  that doesn't happen? Well, let's look at the
• 2:28
  individual ones first. A lot of people have undiagnosed
• 2:31
  anxiety and if you are really, really into the idea that
• 2:35
  there's one right way to load the dishwasher and.
• 2:38
  And some people I I did a little video on this and some people
• 2:41
  were talking about that it's a money management sort of thing
• 2:46
  because one way wastes money and so therefore it's not just
• 2:49
  anxiety it's it's money related. Well, what do you think people
• 2:52
  don't get anxious about money. I mean rigidity is anxiety.
• 2:57
  Those things are the same. Rigidity is a hallmark of
• 3:00
  anxiety. I I was surprised frequently by
• 3:02
  how many people don't realize that and act as though those are
• 3:07
  two completely different things which I guess makes sense.
• 3:10
  You know, it's like how anger is a symptom of depression.
• 3:13
  But most people think of depression as just like crying
• 3:16
  or sad, and it isn't. And anxious isn't worrying a lot
• 3:21
  because some people worry so much internally that they as a
• 3:24
  protective over compensatory mechanism, they try to figure
• 3:30
  out perfect routines of perfect, streamlined efficiency that will
• 3:35
  forestall any potential anxiety if they are executed correctly.
• 3:40
  Why would people do this? Because they're really anxious.
• 3:44
  They're really anxious that if they do something the wrong way
• 3:47
  then they will waste money, waste time, waste energy.
• 3:52
  Something will not come out clean.
• 3:54
  Something will therefore get somebody sick there.
• 3:57
  There's all sorts of reasons, you know, and it it's just like
• 4:01
  when people are are germophobes and won't like, let's say bring
• 4:05
  their kid to play at a bounce house with other kids.
• 4:07
  And you say that you're very anxious.
• 4:09
  They say, Oh no, I just don't want them to get sick.
• 4:12
  What do you think that is? That's anxious.
• 4:14
  You know, things are going to happen in the world.
• 4:17
  Everything isn't going to work out perfectly.
• 4:19
  But if you shape your life around avoiding potential
• 4:22
  negative outcomes in a way that is not what everybody else is
• 4:26
  doing, that is in the tails of the normal distribution of how
• 4:29
  people act, then that's anxiety, right?
• 4:33
  And so rigidity could also be obsessive compulsive disorder or
• 4:37
  personality disorder. And I have a podcast on OCPD.
• 4:41
  Are you rigid as fuck? You know.
• 4:43
  And so listen to that one if that's something that that you
• 4:45
  think may apply to you or or your partner.
• 4:48
  So sometimes there's one person who's extremely anxious.
• 4:52
  So the other person tries to, you know, put away things in the
• 4:55
  dishwasher because they just washed it.
• 4:57
  You know, they had a drink. So then they wash, rinse the cup
• 5:00
  and they put it in the dishwasher.
• 5:02
  And then in comes the other one and says wrong, you did it
• 5:04
  wrong. This is how you do it.
• 5:07
  So that could go one of two ways.
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  So either it could come into a power struggle, which is because
• 5:12
  there's marital problems, which I'll talk about, or it could be
• 5:15
  that the person says, all right, you do it and then that person
• 5:19
  just does it and then either they complain or they don't
• 5:21
  complain. That could go either way based
• 5:23
  on who they are and or they just say OK and then they just do it
• 5:28
  like the way that that person wants it.
• 5:29
  You know what? And then there was something
• 5:31
  that I said, another comment that somebody had.
• 5:33
  Well, like a woman will never respect you if you just if.
• 5:36
  If, if you just do what they want.
• 5:39
  Well, shit. I mean, if you could you say,
• 5:40
  like, that's a lot of syllables to say celibate, you know,
• 5:43
  because in fact, you know, if you try to specifically not do
• 5:48
  what your wife wants on purpose, that's a real good way to never
• 5:52
  get laid again. That is being difficult, which
• 5:55
  is like the least sexy, you know, possible type of man, as
• 6:00
  I've discussed over and over. Angry, rigid or difficult, you
• 6:04
  know, And all those things are basically synonymous.
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  So there has never been a man who has gotten the respect from
• 6:10
  his wife by browbeating her into understanding that her preferred
• 6:15
  way of loading the dishwasher is inefficient.
• 6:18
  I mean it's like you keep it's it's like it's like a a vagina
• 6:22
  like like dryer outer, like that sentence.
• 6:25
  Like whenever you're trying to tell your wife about why
• 6:27
  something's inefficient, just, you know, stock up on hand
• 6:31
  lotion because is you're not going to be getting laid at all.
• 6:34
  It's like the least sexy possible remark.
• 6:37
  And so why? I mean we'll talk about that
• 6:40
  first. Why really is that?
• 6:42
  Because on some level she knows that this is bullshit.
• 6:47
  She knows that this stuff is low level and she knows that there's
• 6:50
  not one real way to do it, you know?
• 6:53
  And The thing is, is if you care that much, then it goes back to
• 6:58
  my podcast on Preoccupied Attachment, Men and why women
• 7:02
  don't respect them. You have nothing else to do, she
• 7:06
  realizes, but argue with her on the dishwasher.
• 7:09
  You don't have other big hopes and dreams and goals you're at
• 7:12
  not out doing anything important for the family or for your
• 7:16
  career. You don't have like a passion
• 7:18
  that that would stop you from engaging in these sorts of
• 7:21
  things because you would be thinking about bigger and better
• 7:23
  things. You are the guy who has enough
• 7:26
  bandwidth and time and energy to argue about the dishwasher.
• 7:30
  Now you say but but but wait, that doesn't make any sense.
• 7:33
  She herself, she herself is arguing about the dishwasher.
• 7:37
  So then doesn't that follow that she finds that to be in fact an
• 7:40
  important topic and worthy of engaging on No, no, no, no, not
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  at all. She just wants to manage the
• 7:50
  home the way that she wants, and that's like a bad thing to say.
• 7:55
  Now, you know, it's like very not PC, so women won't say that,
• 7:59
  but a lot of them still want to do that.
• 8:02
  She does find it important. She does.
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  That doesn't mean she wants a man who finds it important.
• 8:07
  She, you know, also finds it important what brand of tampons
• 8:11
  to buy. She doesn't want you to know
• 8:13
  that information and care about it deeply.
• 8:16
  You know, there she wants to manage the dishwasher this.
• 8:20
  Like, if you just, like literally listen to this, like
• 8:22
  it could save you a lot of heartache.
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  There's a lot of women that want to do everything in the home.
• 8:27
  They want to do it their way, but it's like, they can't say
• 8:30
  it. They're like not allowed to say
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  it. And it's not like they're lying
• 8:33
  because they're not even allowed to think it.
• 8:35
  They're not even allowed to think it anymore.
• 8:38
  So This is why I have my post call.
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  Do you really want to split all housework decisions with your
• 8:42
  husband or are you lying? There's a lot of people I'm
• 8:46
  lying. I mean, lying to themselves, not
• 8:47
  lying in some sort of malicious, you know, nasty kind of way,
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  lying to yourself and many times a couples counselling.
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  I'll be like, do you want him to?
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  This is also like my podcast on the preschool.
• 9:01
  I'm picking out the preschools, right?
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  Like, do you want him to have a decision about what preschool to
• 9:07
  to to send your kid to? And every woman, Young women,
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  not older women. I mean, you ask a woman, I'm
• 9:13
  going to be the time you hear this.
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  I am probably. I'm going to be 43.
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  I am so clear that I don't want a man to pick out the preschool,
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  you know? I mean, I I picked out all the
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  preschools. It was like it's not even a.
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  It wasn't even a discussion. Of course I picked out the
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  preschools. I was the one working part time
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  to be with the damn kids. Of course I care more about the
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  preschool. Obviously I care more about the
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  preschool. No shit.
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  You know and it. It almost seemed like like I I
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  cannot even describe to any 30 something year old woman that
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  the the difference that it has been in the past ten years on
• 9:50
  these sorts of variables. When people come in with
• 9:53
  discussions where there's two adults, a man and a woman and
• 9:56
  the man has a spreadsheet about preschools, it's like, I mean
• 10:00
  it's cute. It's very endearing.
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  You know that it gives a shit about the preschool, but it is
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  so different. It is so different.
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  It can you. It's, you see, I can't even, I
• 10:11
  cannot even articulate it in the length of one of these
• 10:15
  admittedly short podcasts, how different it has become.
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  COVID really hastened it, You know, because both people were
• 10:22
  working together. It was exactly the right moment.
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  I feel like, sociologically, for men to just have to be involved
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  in preschool. And here's the fucking crazy
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  part, though, here's the part that really sucks.
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  Once they get involved, it's like it's like a vampire getting
• 10:37
  a taste for blood and they're really in it.
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  Then they really give a shit. You know they care if the if you
• 10:45
  tell them to help with the pick it out the preschools, that
• 10:48
  motherfucker is going to pick out a preschool.
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  He's going to have his Excel spreadsheet and he is going to
• 10:52
  be he's going to have skin in the game And that's when many
• 10:56
  women are like oh shit and they never realized you know like
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  that they didn't actually want him to give a shit about the
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  preschool. So at that point, you know, many
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  times people come into couples counseling, but the woman
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  doesn't know that it's literally because he's involved with the
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  preschool at all. What she thinks is that it's
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  because he picked the wrong one, because he doesn't understand
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  the children, because he invalidates her, because he's
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  dismissive, because he's cold, because his mother was a
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  narcissist, Old Faithful, and you know, or whatever else.
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  The the the reason, ostensible reason is.
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  But the reality is she didn't want him to be involved in the
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  preschool choice. She didn't.
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  She really fucking did it. Just like she doesn't want him
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  to be involved in the dishwasher system.
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  And all of this would be fine if she wasn't being told by the
• 11:45
  world and she didn't believe herself on a philosophical level
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  that they should split everything right down the
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  middle. Which is literally impossible
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  because almost there is no mathematical splitting things
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  down the middle in interpersonal relationships.
• 12:00
  There are no people that love each other exactly the same
• 12:02
  amount, you know? I mean, you don't even love your
• 12:04
  kids exactly the same amount. Oh, blasphemy.
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  But it's true. It's true.
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  Or maybe you do in some way, but you certainly don't like them
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  all the exact same amount 'cause that's impossible to get a
• 12:14
  mathematical exact division when we're talking about emotions,
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  right? And so the the point being that
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  the other reason people fight about loading the dishwasher,
• 12:24
  which is a big one that you should discuss in your home, is
• 12:27
  that one person does not admit that they and that that's the
• 12:31
  woman. So I'm not saying.
• 12:33
  So let me be clear. The woman does not admit that
• 12:36
  she really wants to be the one who is in charge of all home
• 12:41
  decisions because of what that would mean.
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  That would mean a couple of things.
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  One, she has to do a lot more than because that only follows.
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  Or two, that she cares more about such things or that she
• 12:52
  believes that genders are different from one another,
• 12:54
  which she may philosophically very much disagree with.
• 12:57
  But you know, point is she kind of wants the the dishes done the
• 13:00
  way that she wants them done. So couples can come to terms
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  with this sort of thing and many men can just be like, fuck it,
• 13:06
  it's ruining my Are you telling me it's ruining my marriage to
• 13:09
  to to care about the dishwasher? Then I never care again.
• 13:12
  What are we doing again? We're putting the the cups in
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  this order. Cool.
• 13:17
  Sometimes it's as easy as that because they no longer feel
• 13:19
  gaslighted. And the reason the man no longer
• 13:21
  feels gaslighted is the woman's no longer gaslighting herself to
• 13:25
  say that she doesn't, that she actually wants his input into
• 13:27
  something she doesn't want his input in.
• 13:30
  So that is in and of itself worth the price of this free
• 13:33
  podcast. Just that that discussion.
• 13:36
  So let's recap. One reason that people get too
• 13:39
  into this stuff is because they have undiagnosed anxiety and
• 13:42
  believe that there are certain systems that work quote better
• 13:45
  than others that they're willing to like take to the mat because
• 13:49
  they are massively rigid and that underlies and that you
• 13:53
  know, covers up deep anxiety right.
• 13:55
  The 2nd is because there is basically a power struggle over
• 13:59
  who should be in charge of certain, you know, gendered,
• 14:05
  previously gendered home activities, with the woman
• 14:10
  telling herself she wants input on areas she does not want input
• 14:13
  in and does not feel. And sometimes, by the way, so I
• 14:18
  talk about a lot. Like I have a post, the man who
• 14:21
  tries to take everything off his wife's plate, but she's still
• 14:23
  unhappy with him. And I talk about how the more
• 14:26
  things that the man tries to take over in the house, the more
• 14:29
  the woman's self esteem actually goes down because she feels a
• 14:31
  lack of self efficacy, almost like, what do I really do around
• 14:34
  here after all. But she gets more and more
• 14:39
  herself esteem goes down more and more because she, she has
• 14:42
  less things to do, really. And then she wants to do fewer
• 14:45
  things because she has less confidence.
• 14:49
  And you know, I talk about this in, I have a podcast.
• 14:53
  If your husband does all the emotional and physical labor,
• 14:55
  why? And I talk about this in depth
• 14:58
  in that one. So you should listen to that one
• 14:59
  if you like this one. And sometimes the woman feels
• 15:05
  that she does not have the abilities to do all of the
• 15:08
  things in the home that she has opinions about.
• 15:12
  So like, while she might want because remember, a lot of women
• 15:16
  were raised by mothers who made all the decisions of the homes
• 15:18
  far more than 10 years ago, right in the 10 years is when I
• 15:21
  see I've even seen a change. So on the one hand, they have
• 15:24
  the cultural script that they want to make all the decisions
• 15:27
  like their mother did, even if they may deny that that's
• 15:30
  hammered into their subconscious.
• 15:32
  But on the other hand, they do not feel that they have the
• 15:35
  energy or the bandwidth to do all of those things.
• 15:37
  Part of the reason that they don't is because child rearing
• 15:40
  has grown much more intensive. So like their own mothers
• 15:44
  weren't also reading to them an hour a day in addition to doing
• 15:48
  all that shit and trying to engage with every word that came
• 15:50
  out of their mouths. And another reason is that most
• 15:53
  of the couples I see are dual income.
• 15:55
  So the woman is working and maybe her mother did not work
• 15:58
  and so therefore was able to execute really this great
• 16:03
  perfect home. But you know, she didn't work.
• 16:05
  And this woman does work, so she's tired when she gets home,
• 16:08
  but she still has the script that she should be in charge of,
• 16:10
  the dishwashers, of the of how the dishwasher is loaded.
• 16:13
  And in this case, that has to be discussed openly in therapy,
• 16:17
  right? Like, what are the scripts that
• 16:18
  we each came to this marriage with?
• 16:20
  Which ones don't work for us anymore?
• 16:22
  They really don't like. For example, I've worked quite a
• 16:25
  bit more in recent years. You know, my son, now my
• 16:28
  youngest is in fifth grade and I just started full time work when
• 16:32
  he was in first grade. So it's been a big ramp up for
• 16:36
  me over the recent, you know, what's that, four years or
• 16:39
  something. And there's a lot of things I
• 16:41
  can't care about anymore, you know, I just can't.
• 16:43
  And so if I was always trying to have like, stuff baked in the
• 16:46
  house, I don't bake nearly as much anymore, you know, So like,
• 16:50
  that's kind of a thing where as I say all the time, there's no
• 16:53
  free lunch. Or I used to manage all the
• 16:57
  people who came to the house, like any sort of a plumber or
• 17:00
  something like that. I can't, I can't do that stuff
• 17:02
  now. I don't have the time.
• 17:04
  But if I was getting going to get really upset about it and
• 17:08
  then get mad at my husband for not doing it right because I
• 17:11
  still wanted to do it even though I can't do it, then we
• 17:14
  would have conflict. The conflict that like I see in
• 17:17
  many people, so a lot of this stuff just has to be completely
• 17:20
  hammered out, you know, and never really discussed in
• 17:23
  couples therapy, you know, And the last reason is that the
• 17:26
  entire thing just masks a deep marital conflict about who is
• 17:31
  considered more important and more intelligent, you know?
• 17:34
  And so these things masquerade as as issues about how
• 17:38
  individual household things run, or, you know, how the
• 17:42
  dishwasher's loaded, what restaurant we should go to,
• 17:44
  whatever else. But it's really masking like a
• 17:48
  core problem in the marriage, where basically you're just
• 17:51
  picking shit to fight about because you're mad at each
• 17:53
  other. And it's like the meme that I
• 17:55
  used to reference all the time, That bitch is just eating
• 17:57
  crackers over there like she owns the place.
• 18:00
  You know, like when you hate somebody, then you, even them.
• 18:04
  Eating crackers is offensive to you and you find it to be just
• 18:07
  another indication of what a shitty person they are.
• 18:09
  Even though eating crackers is a neutral activity.
• 18:13
  So if you are angry with your husband or your wife for many,
• 18:17
  many unresolved deeper issues, usually in the area of not
• 18:21
  feeling loved or respected, then any sort of home decision is
• 18:27
  going to be a fruitful playground for all of your
• 18:30
  hatred to just you know, come out and and your guys are going
• 18:35
  to attack each other over even the smallest things.
• 18:38
  And I know I said that was the last one.
• 18:40
  But just on a deep level, individually, if you care this
• 18:44
  much personally really about how any individual thing goes on in
• 18:49
  the home, you really have to do a deep dive on how meaningful
• 18:53
  and joyful your life is. Otherwise, if you are having an
• 18:57
  affair, just picture it. If you were having an affair, I
• 19:00
  know so many people can't even picture it because they so
• 19:03
  wouldn't do it. All right, forget it.
• 19:05
  Let's say you were, well, your husband or wife died, right?
• 19:09
  And then you were in love with a new person.
• 19:12
  The same thing I was trying to get at before, new relationship
• 19:14
  energy. Don't you see all the shows
• 19:17
  about the people being in love or having an affair and they
• 19:19
  just come in, there's dancing through the house because
• 19:22
  they're the dopamine is like flooding through their brain,
• 19:25
  right? Do you think that those people
• 19:27
  are still fighting with their significant other over the
• 19:29
  dishwasher? Obviously not.
• 19:31
  What about on the other end of the extreme?
• 19:33
  What if your kid was sick? What if your kid, God forbid,
• 19:36
  was diagnosed with something terrible?
• 19:37
  Do you think you'd give a shit about the dishwasher?
• 19:39
  You would not. What about if you started a new
• 19:42
  business? What about if you got promoted?
• 19:44
  What about if your younger sister had a baby?
• 19:48
  Whatever the hell it is that you can picture, you can picture
• 19:51
  something that would be so big in your mind that you would no
• 19:55
  longer really care at all about the dishwasher.
• 19:57
  Right? So then get those kind of
• 20:00
  things. Not the affair.
• 20:01
  Don't impregnate your younger sister, but but the the point
• 20:05
  is, get something in your life. If you realize that makes sense
• 20:08
  to you, that perhaps an emptiness and a vast, yawning
• 20:11
  boredom and lack of meaning is actually at root of why you're
• 20:16
  caring so much about little shit, then think about that in
• 20:21
  not couples, but individual therapy or deep introspection on
• 20:24
  your own. What else could you do?
• 20:27
  You know, to make yourself not care about little shit that
• 20:31
  objectively you will never remember as mattering in 10
• 20:35
  years. And what does it hide like?
• 20:37
  So it either hides A marital problem, a personal problem, a
• 20:43
  philosophical problem, or an internal individual lack of
• 20:48
  meaning problem. So as I said before, like I
• 20:51
  can't get the plumber anymore. I can't bake as much anymore
• 20:54
  because I don't have the time, because I'm interested in
• 20:57
  building my business. Now I'm at a different stage,
• 21:00
  right? I'm interested in something
• 21:02
  else. It's interesting.
• 21:04
  So if I have an hour and I could either do this podcast right or
• 21:10
  I could deal with something upstairs and make the house look
• 21:13
  5% nicer, I'm usually going to pick this.
• 21:16
  And this also gets me a lot more positive feedback from the world
• 21:20
  than straightening up the living room, as nice as my husband
• 21:23
  could be about that, you know, and that's somewhat of the issue
• 21:27
  for a lot of women in particular, is that if you have
• 21:32
  put your career on the back burner because of raising
• 21:35
  children and then the children either go into school or they
• 21:38
  leave the house entirely. Those are two inflection points
• 21:41
  where I frequently see female clients come in and they say I
• 21:45
  kind of I'm, I'm experiencing a lack of meaning.
• 21:49
  You know, I don't really know what to do.
• 21:51
  This is somewhat of an inflection point for me and I
• 21:54
  don't really know what to do. And and you do get more
• 21:57
  irritable. You do get more fixated on small
• 21:59
  things if you do not feel a larger sense of meaning or joy
• 22:02
  or purpose in your life, whether that is career, whether that is
• 22:06
  relationship, whether that is child rearing, whether that is
• 22:09
  volunteering, whether that is spirituality, whatever it is.
• 22:14
  And one last thing. So many things.
• 22:16
  This has gotten pretty long for my podcast.
• 22:18
  You also may just be depressed. Literally.
• 22:20
  If you're depressed and you're irritable and everything feels
• 22:23
  wrong, so you could be anxious, but you could also be depressed.
• 22:26
  So listen to all my podcasts and go to all my posts on
• 22:29
  depression, because that may be happening too.
• 22:31
  When you're depressed, everything is like, why is that
• 22:33
  bitch over there eating crackers like she owns the place?
• 22:36
  Everything, Everybody, everyone and everything.
• 22:39
  Is the bitch eating crackers. All right, well on that note I
• 22:43
  will go. Hope you guys found this useful.
• 22:45
  Would be a good one to listen to with your partner potentially.
• 22:48
  Unless as I always say, don't send your partner my stuff if
• 22:53
  they don't like it. They should only have to tell
• 22:54
  you once that they don't like it and then it's boundary crossing.
• 22:58
  So you could if and and if you find these things difficult to
• 23:01
  talk to your partner about, then reach out for therapy.
• 23:05
  I'm not the only person in my practice that provides therapy
• 23:08
  or coaching. I understand that.
• 23:09
  You know, I'm a little much for for everybody.
• 23:12
  You know, everybody isn't going to want to work with me
• 23:14
  individually and everybody can't because I'm just one person.
• 23:17
  So there are plenty of other relationship coaches and
• 23:19
  therapists I might practice best life, behavioral health and I'll
• 23:22
  talk to you all soon. Have a great day guys.