Latest / The Common Sense Revolution Podcast / Ep 5: Burnham's gamble, and what it leaves for the Tories
Transcript
- Gavin Megaw: This week, Labour started to look like a government with an actual plan. Burnham used his party conference speech in Liverpool to put the state pension triple lock up for reform and to open the door to a new relationship with the EU. Both things Labour have ducked for years. The Conservatives are up next in Birmingham, starting Sunday. The question we're chewing over today is what Berlin's week means for Big Nock and whether she has an answer by the time she stands up at the Tory Party Conference next week. Welcome back to the Common Sense Revolution podcast. I'm Gavin McGaugh with Patrick Kidd and Peter Franklin as ever. And we'll be exploring whether the Conservative Party is repairing or falling apart. And today's one's really interesting because we've seen Andy Burnham stand up at the Labour Party Conference and absolutely knock the socks off everyone else. I thought he's done an extraordinary job to really get his party going and show us the direction of travel for Labour this year and beyond. What did you think, Patrick? Patrick: I thought this was, as Sir Humphrey would say, a courageous speech. I mean, first things first, presentationally, it's such an improvement on Keir Starmer. although, you know, we could fault some of the delivery. He spoke very slowly all the time. But actually in tone and upbeatness, the message is hope. There is famously Hope Street in Liverpool, and that he's trying to do some of that hopey changey thing that worked for Barack Obama. But actually what I thought was courageous was it is setting up attacks for the Conservatives. It is setting up a philosophy and with Labour under Burnham, the state is back. They want the state to take control of energy. They want everything's gonna be called Great British. We've got Great British trains, there's gonna be Great British grid. Then he wants to take control of water, that would be Great British Drip, I guess. Then he wants to take control of people's flats if they're unused. I don't know what that's gonna be. Great British letting and then he wants to take take control of the elections as well with the Great British ballots. Basically, he wants the state to do everything. and you know that's fine. We can criticize it. Conservatives are bound to. That gives Kemi Badnock and her team something to fight against. So all credit to him. He he has basically said let's go back to the seventies. it was wonderful. the music was especially good. And and they can say let's go back to the eighties. Gavin Megaw: Peter, what did you think of this? Was it a for all of Britain or was it just for the left of Britain? 'Cause it seems to me he's coalescing the left behind the Burnham vision. Peter: Well, the commentary act are queuing up to say, this is the most brilliant conference speech since Tony Blair. I think it's the most dangerous conference speech since Tony Blair, and that includes Jerry Corbyn's efforts. I think that he is systematically trying to distract us from the real problems of the country. He's trying to pretend. that our problems are caused by Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s, by Brexit and by the first pass of post electoral system. What utter rubbish. What he's trying to distract us from is that the real problem is that we have a expansive and expensive welfare state that actually survived Margaret Thatcher and Brexit and everything else. but will not survive the impact of continued low growth, aging population and mass immigration. Those are the real problems. Those are the problems that Labour don't want to talk about. And thanks to his communications brilliance, we're not talking about it. Well, I am, because a few of us are immune to that sort of rubbish. Just as I felt I was immune to Tony Blair's charm. So, sorry, not impressed. I think he's a dangerous man and a dangerous Prime Minister. I like him though. Gavin Megaw: Well that well I genuinely thought he was brilliant in the speech. Of course I would be seen as a centrist here, so it's probably my biases are coming through. Peter: Gavin, Gavin, he was brilliant. That's my point. That's what makes him so dangerous. Gavin Megaw: But you're saying he's a dope. He's not giving hope. Patrick, let's just deal though with the approach that he took in the speech before we come back to the economic arguments here and whether it's good or bad for the country. But there was a lot of personal elements to this. It was quite risky in that sense. He tried to carry a motion, tried to bring people behind him. He was this just him coalescing his army behind him as such, getting ready for any future election? Patrick: Well, he had to win win over his party and reassure them and that's that is always part of the conference is it's you're speaking to very much to a a a select group, not to the nation. I mean, who who in the nation is watching conference speeches anyway, apart apart from nerds and the the affected? but he was on home turf, you know, he comes from Liverpool. He is an Everton fan, f famously. He had the farm playing his walk on music. he was this this was going to be a big sort of I'm a home conversation. Coming boy, he banned the sun. He said he wouldn't do any interviews with the sun because he was quite happy to play the Hillsborough cards there. He he was going to get good vibes out of this. And we saw the reaction in the hall. There were people in tears. Ed Millerband was was blubbing. there was some sort of yes, some emotion. But look, we've all been to conferences where we felt it's gone really well in the hall and it's made no impact. I remember seeing William Haig, you know, when when we worked in Central Office, give brilliant. speeches, so we thought, and it had no impact on the polls. so this was perhaps just trying to set out his stall as as someone better than Starmer, just to reassure them you didn't do the wrong thing and get rid getting rid of the last duffer. Gavin Megaw: Peter, you've got to the tension of this in the sense that you think it's dangerous. because he's maybe trying to fool people into what his real plans are here. most of this was about plans post the next election. Is that a trap he's falling into, or is it a trap he's trying to make the Conservatives and other fall into? Peter: Well, that's the strange and unresolved mystery here is that though he's promising some, you know, I think they're the wrong targets, but they're certainly targets and he's certainly doing some major things to hit them, but not yet. That's a weird thing about all of this. The big ticket items in yesterday's speech. kind of all require a fresh mandate at a general election. So is he really, as promised, going to stick it out all the way to 2029, sticking to the Stammer and Reeves policy programme? Or is he not going to be able to do that and, you know, feels, you know, that he literally cannot hold off a general election? And like Nigel Farage predicted last year, there will be an election not this year, but sometime in 2027, most likely the spring. That is the implication of what he's doing, but he might just be keeping his options open. But anyone who thinks there definitely won't be an early election, I think they're kidding themselves. No guarantees of that whatsoever. Patrick: Th this is the extraordinary thing actually. You're right. So the the big announcement, the the the triple lock, that's not gonna happen 'til twenty thirty, because he doesn't he says he doesn't doesn't have the mandate. They have a huge majority. He began his speech by praising Keir Starmer, which was wise, because you should always praise the guy you've just toppled, for giving them a landslide majority. But he doesn't want to lose it. Now I'm a firm believer that if your party has been elected on a landslide, you have the right to change your policies as much as you want to in the next parliament. and you will be judged on it. But, you know, if he believes that he needs to get a mandate before he can actually do anything, then he needs an election. And Peter is is is is absolutely right there. I just wonder we're gonna ha have two years of stagnation and lots of whinging about the eighties and nothing actually will change. Gavin Megaw: I've been told by contacts that number ten have been talking a lot about mandates in recent weeks. So what you're saying is fascinating from both of you in terms of the chance of an early election next year. We all thought it would come late this year, but next year is interesting. I mean, my view on all of this is Burnham is such a good communicator. He has really blown the socks off everyone in terms of the way he can deliver a message. But the message may have made a lot of people happy in the hall. And sounded really positive to people at home. And it's a bit more of Burnham sort of playing to that idea that there is a strategic goal from being the person pushing hope. And there's been books written about that, by the way. The economist Carl Graham wrote a book showing that hope isn't a mood as an economic variable. And they've really, really poured their heart into that strategy since Burnham came on board. But none of it solves the problem the country faces. We used to own more than we owe. As the UK, we used to be top of the G7 in terms of the rankings and that type of things. Now we're at the bottom. we're in real trouble. The guilt markets have not reacted massively positively, they've not reacted negatively either to Burnham's speech because there was nothing in it really, talking about savings and talking about reweighting the economy. And that's the real challenge here for Burnham. And he hasn't gripped that. And I don't think that can wait three years because every day. that our situation, our economic situation looks as bad as it is as it is today, the weaker we are for the next shock that comes, so we really need to get a grip, is my view. Patrick: Yeah, I mean there was no mention in his speech of defence. there was there was no mention of immigration really. th these issues that are being talked ab about on on on doorsteps. And then also, you know, the budget is a month away and we just wonder, is he holding stuff back for that? I mean you're you're you're right. If th if if there's drift then then that's not good for the country. It seems like maybe the markets are just waiting to see what the budget actually delivers. But you know, they they have got four weeks to sort this out. Gavin Megaw: So he's in effect, he said he's got three years, is what it what how people took it yesterday. So three years for the next general election, that's what he's got. But really he's got three weeks, isn't he? Because the budget will show the real direction of travel here. And if it doesn't, he's not doing his job of leading, like he said at the start of that speech. Peter, would you would you compare this speech to any other leaders out there other than Blair? Peter: Well, we've already mentioned Obama, who's got a lot to answer for. I think hope has poisoned our politics because hope is just a polite word for complacency and we've had enough of that. And I think the great underrated political virtue of our time is panic. And I'd like to see panic enter the hearts of our leaders and the electorate and then maybe we'll get the action we need. Gavin Megaw: So if Patrick: look forward to seeing Panic Now being the slogan of the Tory conference. Peter: Hahaha! Gavin Megaw: Yeah, behind Big Nock on the on the screen, panic now. There we go. Well, is it worth moving on to Big Nock and the challenge she now has next week? Because that's a really difficult environment for her to step up in, isn't it? Where Burnham really has delivered brilliantly and shown what sort of leader he is. Now, there'll be lots of problems that come out of this. People will start picking holes in it, and with the budget coming up, more holes will be picked. But Bait Knox got a bit of a challenge here, and she hasn't had such a challenge in the last few months, has she, Peter? What's she what's she gonna do? Peter: That's absolutely right. I think if you compare it to the situation last year, where she delivered, she did deliver a knockout political performance at that podium. It was a speech, it was a sort of, here I am speech. And it really worked. It wasn't just prime ministerial or even presidential. It was almost regal. it... did change the weather about the way that she was perceived by political commentators and to an extent the public as well. I think though that this year she's got to leave all of that behind, not make it about her and make it about the situation the country faces. And I think instead of looking for an immediate hit of popularity, she's got to tell people what they don't want to hear, which is the full truth about the situation facing the country and the financial precipice on which we find ourselves. Now, I'm not pretending that will, you know, go down well, at least not until things do go wrong. Not until our bond yields do start taking off even faster than they have been already. At which point people turn around and ask, who was it that warned us about this? Who set out a programme that could have stopped this? And she will be able or should be able to say, well, I did, here it is, it's still relevant, let's do it. That's what she's got to aim for. Gavin Megaw: Patrick, honesty, is that what people want? Patrick: Haha they always say they want honesty until they hear it. I think she still has the problem that it was only a couple of years ago that the Conservatives left office after fourteen years. And so the the the comeback is always gonna be but you you gave us this weak economy. that I think sh that's fine. She ca she can just say Labour's made it worse. She only has to point at the cost of living, energy prices. And that's completely unfair perhaps to blame Labour for energy prices given the war in the Middle East has pushed but you she should be saying diesel is t is two pounds. A gallon, she should be reminding people they don't have as much money in their pockets. But she does need some recipes for change and improvement. She can't just say it's rubbish. She needs to be say that the Conservatives are on the side of the hard working. She needs to say that they are on the side of the ambitious, on the side of business. and you know, small business. They can't just be saying we're we're backing the the billionaires. they need to be standing up for everyone that the Labour apparently are against. And you know, if she's not using that line about About national security and social security that was chucked in PMQs a few weeks ago. If she's not using the Pat McFadden line about every conversation I have is about how we can hand out more welfare. She should be using this as an opportunity to set out the philosophical differences between her party. I would just give her some advice though, having seen Theresa May's first conference speech, in that was Manchester, wasn't it? when there was a protester and then she lost her voice and then bits of the set started collapsing behind her. The mood music is is is always something you you you w you want to try and avoid there being bad omens. So she needs to just make sure that the presentation and nothing goes goes wrong. Gavin Megaw: Peter, if you were in the room with her advising her on her conference speech, what are the words you think are going to be most important? What sort of words should she have in the background to really reinforce what she's trying to achieve here? Because it's very, very difficult, isn't it, given the hope positioning from Burnham to come out and j you know, I I'm completely in favour of the strategy around honesty and telling people the truth because I think it will end up being successful or more successful than this present strategy. for them, but it's very hard to do that the week after Burnham's had such a success. Peter: It is. I think you've already mentioned the word. The key word is honesty. I think that she should also lean in. Given that she won't give up the triple lock, she needs to lean into the argument that, look, Burnham is saying, let's take this money from pensioners, but he won't cut welfare. He won't cancel the the Chegos Islands deal, he won't do this, that and the other. And I think she could make a virtue of saying, look, we understand that patrons can't take an ever greater share of the economy forever and ever, that is not sustainable. But she can say by the same logic, the same logic indeed applies to all of these other areas that Labour won't touch. because Burnham for all of his posturing is too much of a coward, is too much a prisoner of his own party to do what needs to be done. And I think she needs to drop the tone that she's often used before with starver, which was a very sarcastic tone. And she needs to drop the hue although she can be very good at it. And she needs to be absolutely stone-dead serious about all of this and look the country in the eye and say, remember what I told you today. That's what I'd advise her to do. Gavin Megaw: Yeah, so more condescending than on the front foot attacking Burnham as a person, I think, in the sense that he's not really done the things which are needed. Is that what you're saying? Peter: Well, not a condescending tone. It's okay, that's too much of her sort of go-to approach, which may work at P &Qs, but she's addressing the country here. So it shouldn't be condescending. It should be, you know, sorry. I know this sounds all wonderful and warm and fuzzy and hope-filled from Andy Berman, but this isn't. We're not in the 90s anymore, we're not in the 2000s when things were still looking quite good. Things will not, cannot only get better. we're not very careful, things will get a lot worse. And this is what we need to do now to stop that worst case scenario. Gavin Megaw: Patrick, the Tories ducked the triple lock changes really in recent years and even in recent months when the shadow cabinet have been talking about them often through newspapers. does that damage Kemi's position? Patrick: I personally think they've taken the wrong line. They've been very strong and and saying Labour want to cut people's pensions, which actually is not true. Of course Labour just doesn't want to put it up that high. But it was only at the start of the year Kemi was t l talking about possibly means testing pensions. I think that's right. I think her her line should be fairness. The system is not working those who are tr are trying. so those who have means should not be given hands out handouts. Those who don't should. And she should say there's nothing wrong with helping the weakest. But you know, free school meals, for instance, a universal. I I can afford to pay lunch for my children. Why why should I get that from the state? why should pensioners who have who have got savings get get above inflation increases? I I think if Kemi starts saying we're gonna be a bit more sensible about this 'cause we don't have enough to go around, then that might help. So she needs to go back and look at what she was saying earlier in the year. Gavin Megaw: So that's let's just talk through the two or three things you'd like to see next week from the Conservative Party as they really step up. I mean, there will be attention on them, there won't be as much attention on them as there was, for the Labour Party or even reform possibly. So what do they do? What are the two or three things you'd like to see them do, Peter? Peter: I would start with housing, actually. They've got a new shadow housing secretary, Katie Lamb, from which a lot is expected, and she is seen as a possible future leader of the Conservative Party. Patrick: You've cursed her now, Peter. Peter: Well, maybe I have, but I would like her to start setting out. properly radical housing policy that gets homes built but frees the whole process of housing development from its current dependency on ever increasing land prices. I'd love to see, you know, one of of Burnham's announcements or one of the Labour announcements recently is a return to help to buy. which is an absolutely insane policy, which basically tries to deal with a supply problem by subsidizing demand. This is economically illiterate. I'd love to see a conservative shadow housing spokesman really get into the weeds of this and really start dealing with the years and years of... utter nonsense and wrongheadedness that we've heard from not just from Labour but from all the parties. So yeah on housing and perhaps on some other issues too I'd like to see more truth telling and more detail as well. Gavin Megaw: It's hard on housing though, Because the Conservative Party were in power for so long and frankly did very, very little. were utterly failed on that. Patrick, what about the two other big areas? We talked about the triple lock on pensions, but the other two big policy announcements from Burnham really were the EU and moving closer to the EU again post the next election. And we've heard more today in interviews that he's done. As a follow-up to the speech, saying that could mean all in again, but he's set it out within four different options. And the other thing he talked about was proportional representation or the idea of electoral reform in that way, which is interesting, isn't it, particularly given the sort of five party state that we tend to operate in now. Patrick: think they're interesting policy areas. I'm not sure any votes are to be won in it on the on the Conservative side. I mean if K Kemi went in either opposing or or or supporting proportional representation I think people would shrug. I think she should say w we are not scared of reform, we can beat them with ideas rather than gerrymandering. In fact she should refer to the proportional representation plan as an attempt to try and fix it, perhaps. as for Brexit, she can say the country has had ten years of arguments about this. The decision was made. I mean, you know, people on this podcast will have different views on whether it was a good decision or not. But nonetheless, I think everyone was sick of it. And and the whole of Brenda from Bristol, well, not another referendum. But this is another issue that Burnham is is there there is a phrase that Burnham uses a lot. He says, We're gonna have to have a look at that. He often likes to bring that up immigration, we're gonna have to have a look at that. Brexit, we're gonna have to have a look at that. I mean, he's talking about it but without any plans. So, you know, say to him, if you want another referendum Tell us that. Be honest. If you don't, then perhaps we'll just stop talking about it and get on with trying to work with the situation where we are now. I do think the Conservatives should be upbeat though. I don't think it should be all doom and gloom. I'm not sure people reward they they will like realism, they'll like honesty, but they want a sense that the Conservatives are optimistic that things can get better. And so some ideas and some cheerfulness would help there. Gavin Megaw: If I was behind the scenes with Kemi and her team, I would be trying to get the focus on growth and a really serious Patrick: Yes. Gavin Megaw: argument around growth, because that was what was lacking in Andy Burnham's speech. And I wouldn't be playing that for the mass public. I'd be playing that for the business leaders. I'd be playing it for the potential donors to the party, etc., just to show how serious the party is, including the markets. And I think that would be my focus. Because I think the danger is if you come to a gunfight with Burnham and you've only got a knife, you're not gonna compete. And Burnham is aiming at the public at present, but the public at present do not matter. That will come later. What you've got to do now is build the strategic layers of being credible. And I think that would be the focus if I was behind the scenes. Now probably wouldn't be listened to, but it's certainly what I would be encouraging her and her team to do. Patrick: There's also behind the scenes they need to be preparing for an election. and so you it's not so much what's happening at conference that people see. As as you say, it's it's the conversation it's it's the saying we need to be ready for this to the the donors. It's the looking competent, you're absolutely right. but a bit of cheerfulness. I remember the year after Theresa May's disastrous disastrous conference, and you know, poor woman because losing her voice and the set collapsing and the pitch invasion weren't really her fault. But do you remember she came out to Dancing Queen? and and there was just a sense of cheerfulness. fall us and bounce about it. and she had the wonderful Jeffrey Cox as her warm up act, a man who should be doing audio books for children. and so you know, we we need a warm up act who's gonna really put some cheerfulness and then get into the sort of fair enough, we're gonna be fun, but we are gonna be statesmanlike as well. Make the country better. Gavin Megaw: What what's a walk on music then, Patrick? What would you recommend? Patrick: need to think about that. I don't know, but we had the farm for Andy Burnham, so I don't know. Right answers on a postcard for people listening. Peter: No, don't have anything recognizable at all because what always happens, especially with conservative and reform conferences, is that whatever artist is used then pops up on social media to sort of say, I didn't want this bunch of fascists using my song. I didn't give them permission. And it just turns into a ridiculous route. So just play some classical music that's been out of copyright for 200 years and you'll be fine. Patrick: Bring back Mike Gavin Megaw: I thought Patrick: Bat. Do you remember Mike Bat wrote a an anthem for William Haig? Although may may maybe he's a just to Remember Peter: Yes. Patrick: You Womble instead. Gavin Megaw: I think I think that's the perfect segue into our memories of conference it's fair to say that we entered employment with the Conservative Party at a time when conferences weren't always perfect. in fact, I remember my first ever conference, which was Blackpool, and arriving and finding my hotel door had already been broken and someone had tried to get in to steal stuff from my room, even before I'd moved in. so that was my entry, but I mean I I do think I would get PDSD if I returned to party conferences working ever again in the political world because it is an incredibly different environment to when things are not going well. Now, Kemi's team, things have been going well, but they'll also be on a knife edge here because it's a bit of defense leads the approach with conference, not just getting on the attack, isn't it, Peter? Peter: yeah, it is. And you're hoping that no one, including all the way down to the young conservatives, are going to do something absolutely appalling that's going to be splashed on the front page of the tabloids. You know, this is the interesting thing about conference, is that anyone there, any delegate, no matter how lonely, can find themselves elevated and dubbed A senior conservative said this, did this, got drunk, vandalised this. It's just, it's just a minefield and I... Patrick: You're you're not being tabloid enough, Peter. It's top toory is always the phrase. Top Tory using s some anonymous Peter: Top Tory! Yes, that's it, yes. Patrick: backbencher no one's heard of. Peter: Well, it doesn't even need to be an MP, it can be just a lonely member of staff. Any of us could have become top Tories just by doing something embarrassing. Gavin Megaw: I'd like to think people still call you guys top Tories. I don't think anyone has ever called me a top Tory, really, and certainly not in recent years. But I do remember when I was working for Central Office's press team, and we were all gathered at a pizzeria. The night for conference really kicked off properly, and then the papers came in through a fax machine, the front pages of the papers for the next day. And the dead part was on the front of one saying in effect the party was dead playing on the Monty Python sketch. And that was a terrible night because you just saw the whole conference becoming an absolute nightmare, even before it started. And that's the danger, isn't it? Peter: In absolutely years. It's just a sequence of accidents waiting to happen. My memory is of a stunt that went horribly wrong. I think it was in Bournemouth and it was, I don't know, somewhere around the year 2000. I can't remember which one. But the idea was to have a bonfire of red tape. Lots of, you know, we always banged on about the excessive amount of red tape and regulation. back then. And the idea is that we would, we'd have all these bits of paper that represented the various regulations. So they might actually have been the actual laws and statutory instruments that are related to each bit of regulation, each rule. And the idea was to, yeah, literally you feed them into a bonfire. Now, problem was that they couldn't get permission for a bonfire because I think it was on Bournemouth Pier or at least on the beach somewhere we don't necessarily want Tories running around with matches and combustible materials. Anyway, no permission for this so instead they had to use a shredder and there were these politicians gathered round sort of feeding these bits of paper into a shredder before the press. I think it was pouring with rain as well probably and it was just such a pathetic spectacle so that that's one of my memories. Gavin Megaw: talking about pathetic spectacles. Does anyone remember Bournemouth when 2002, I think it was, when Anne Whittakom, was giving a speech on cannabis enforcement as shadow home secretary at the time. And s and but within hours, shadow cabinet colleagues came out starting to confess to having smoked cannabis themselves. I think Maud started saying so, then Archie Norman, then Oliver Letwin, who said he'd smoked it once by accident. Might even have said Patrick: Yeah. Gavin Megaw: it was a pipe, I think, something at the time. nine denied it, and most of them said they'd done it. Portilla refused to answer. And I even remember Tim Yo having to answer on a farm in Northern Ireland when we were on a visit, and admit that he had smoked cannabis in the past, but obviously not enjoyed it because none of them said they enjoyed it. Peter: I think... No, no, he did. He said that... Gavin Megaw: But he said. Peter: He said, I can remember, he used the word, I found it agreeable. Which is such a Tory word. Gavin Megaw: But but but this was a classic, a speech where I don't think the party was aligned. Certainly the shadow cabinet was not aligned. One person says something to a journalist offline, and it all becomes an absolute mess as journalists are chasing around the shadow cabinet, literally chasing them around at that point in Bournemouth and beyond the conference, asking whether they'd ever smoked cannabis. And it was just one of those classic examples. The other ones I really remember are the IDS years. we had the quat man speech, which was about trying to save his job, and then the following year he was back trying to save his job again. And that was the quat man has found his voice and he is turning up the volume speech. and that was probably most famous for one, the standing ovations, which were organized, and I can. Be honest with you, that is true. The reporting on that is true. They were organized. I'm not going to name the person who was leading that, but he's a very well-known individual and he did a great job in organizing the standing innovations. And every time he was to stand up, everyone else was to follow. and it didn't work, of course, because IBS lost his job a few weeks later, I think, when the MPs voted him out. I think it was about ninety to seventy-five. But Those days were chaos. You're working all hours. And just to be clear, the people who are working at these conferences do not sleep. They're not out getting drunk every night. They tend to be working all night. It is pretty hardcore, which is why I reference having PDSD anytime I think about party conferences. Peter: Can I just disagree with you there Gavin? You may not have been getting drunk but a lot of other people were and quite lavishly as well and that is well it's one of the reasons why I hate conference. I'm not a big drinker, not a tea totaler but when you're constantly stuck with people that are just completely pie-eyed it just yeah you can't get away from them. It's a nightmare and so I'm very glad to say I haven't been to a party conference since 2005 and I don't miss it one little bit. Patrick: I I of course went on both sides of the fence. I went went with you guys twenty-five years ago to as as workers, but then I went as the political sketchwriter for four four years to to all the parties, including UKIP at Doncaster Race Course, where I was very delighted to discover that the pub by the railway station did nine percent cider, because I needed one by that stage. and what I've always found at all conferences of all parties is actually get away from the conference to clear your head. I remember being in Birmingham I'm going to choral Evensong with Quentin Less, as one does, because we just needed to get away away from the conference hall. At Labour's conference in Liverpool during the Corbyn years, I went to the Cavern Club and saw Kevin Brennan, Labour MP, playing a lunchtime set, and half the Shadow Cabinet were there, which was odd, because it was the same time as John MacDonald's Shadow Chancellor's speech, and clearly they'd all felt the need to get away. Going to Liverpool Cathedral, going to Manchester Art Gallery. Go and explore these places. I mean actually w politicians talk about wanting to be in touch with the with the real world. The best thing to do that is to leave the conference hall and go go and see the places you're actually visiting, even if they don't go to Blackpool anymore. Peter: Well the wonderful thing about Bournemouth is that the beach is fantastic and it's down way all the conference venues are up on the cliffs that's a higher level and the beach is down below and you don't have to go far to just leave most of it behind and so that's I do miss going to Bournemouth that's that's the only thing I miss. Gavin Megaw: You can still go to Bournemouth, Peter. Just pop down there and holiday. Yeah. Right. Peter: I could, yes! I could, yes I- Gavin Megaw: Well I think it's time to maybe put all that to bed and let's move on and see whether the Conservative Party have had a good week or a bad week. Are they up or are they down? Patrick, let's start with you. Are they up or down this week? Patrick: Well, I know you hate vacillation and three star reviews. I mean the thing is this was this was Labour's week, and it was either going to go very well or disastrously for them. So it's been a good week for Labour, if you like. Does that mean it's been a bad week for the Conservatives? Pff Well, I saw in one poll reform have now moved back ahead of them, having praised last week as a a sign that they were on the way up. You know, it is still touch and go, so maybe it's been a bad week, but not because of anything they've done. Gavin Megaw: Peter? Peter: Yeah, I would have to agree with Patrick there. It's more than one poll actually, where the Conservatives have dropped back a little and reform have recovered a little bit of ground. That's probably the normal up and down, the normal jagged line of long-term poll trends. So perhaps not a big thing, but yeah, for lack of publicity, of their own publicity, because the oxygen has all been... You start by Andy Burnham, I'd say a moderately down week for Kenny Beaton. Gavin Megaw: Yes, I would say it's definitely been a moderately, down week for Kemi and the party. But what I would say is there is some hope to use the word of the week there, in the sense that Andy Burnham has really delivered in terms of his speech to his party, but also those on the left. And to me, it's created real dividing grinds here. And if the Conservatives get it right, they're now able to push into the gaps which are being left by Burnham as he gives up some grind. And I think that's a huge opportunity. So Definitely done this week, but that's C next week. The question is whether they get the strategy right or wrong. Right. Let's move on to recommendations. Peter, what's your recommendation for this week? Peter: Well, my highlight of the week, certainly, of the last seven days has been the Pope's visit to France. And as a big, French and all Catholic, I was bound to say that some of the pictures were amazing. know, 800,000 people on the Champs-Élysées, amazing. And so my recommendation is actually to Andy Burnham as our first Catholic Prime Minister. invite the Pope to come over here. I think it would be a great success. Gavin Megaw: Okay, I thought you were gonna recommend Catholicism there, just generally. Peter: Well, obviously, that's a pretext. That's the Patrick: Well Peter: subtext, rather. Patrick: yeah, I we've already received the the by a tapestry. I mean maybe he could encourage the Pope to I don't bring the Sistine Chapel over or something and loan that to us for. I my recommendation as as ever is something cultural. a book I'm reviewing at the moment for the Times, called Flying Pianos, The Eccentric Birth of British Aviation by Charles Spicer. And it's fabulous. It so it's all about the the the golden age, the the Edwardian and and early George the Fifth reign, when people were starting to reach for the skies. And you've got some wonderful mavericks, including Charles Rolls, group creator of the Rolls Royce, who became an aviation enthusiast and tragically died in a competition when they an aviation version of Nearest the Bull. They painted a target on the floor and you had to land your plane as close to it. Unfortunately, he went headfirst into the ground at some velocity and was instantly killed. but it also features a a a chap called Brabazon, who was another pioneer of aviation. who went up into the air with a basket on one wing carrying a piglet, 'cause he wanted to prove that pigs could fly. well it was his grandson, Ivan Brabazon, who was on the Tory transport team when I worked for the party twenty five years ago. And he was a delightful old cove, and I th hope he's very proud of his Paulkine aviation forebear. Gavin Megaw: Never dull, Patrick. Never dull. My my recommendation is as usual slightly more serious than that. I'm actually quite a fan of the New Statesman. I think it's does really well these days. I think it's a great read and reveals a lot about what Labour are thinking and doing. and in the conference special this week, the editor Tom Cage has written a really good piece interviewing Andy Burnham, talking about the Prime Minister's life, fate and what his plan for Britain is. And I'd read it before his speech and thought, okay, that's interesting. But post the speech, actually, it's even more interesting because you sort of see the threads there, which really were part of the speech. It's all been played out in the openness. None of it should surprise us. so I think it's worth having a look at that. Well look, thank you all for joining us for the podcast this week. we will be back next week when the Conservative Party will have finished their party conference. I think it'll be very interesting to review just how they've got that right or wrong. before that though, please subscribe, please leave a review and please share with friends, So thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week.