Latest / Talk Commerce / Challenges for Amazon Sellers: Perishable Foods and Apparel with Chris Moe

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Challenges for Amazon Sellers: Perishable Foods and Apparel with Chris Moe · Talk Commerce

• Brent Peterson (00:02.414) Welcome to this episode of Talk Commerce. Today I have Chris Mo. He is the CEO and founder of Cartograph. Chris, go ahead, do an introduction. Tell us your day-to-day role and one of your passions in life. Chris Moe (00:14.128) Sure, hey Brent. And hi everyone, my name's Chris. I'm the founder and CEO here at Cartograph. We're an Amazon agency. We also do some retail media like Instacart, and we specialize in the consumer packaged goods industry. So we work with a lot of food and beverage brands, supplements brands, beauty brands, and some baby and pet as well. And we run their entire Amazon pages, everything from the supply chain, what they should sell and how to be profitable through full funnel advertising. And so my day to day is a little bit of everything. 60 people and so talk to some clients, help check in on team operations and just make sure that we're delivering really good results for our team. Brent Peterson (01:02.838) That's awesome, thank you. So before we get into content, we're gonna talk about sort of some of the trends we're seeing in the food and beverage industry, maybe how that relates to Amazon, and also talk a little bit about the ads, what's happening in the ad space. But You did volunteer to be part of my Free Joke project, and it seems to be degrading, but you did make a good point. Like it's a free joke, so either. Either the joke is free or at some point somebody should charge for it. And you, you added a third category that was I need to pay you to listen to the joke, which maybe that's a, maybe that's a better category to have. And after you listen to this joke, you're probably going to say, yeah, let's, let's do the paid part. Um, all right. So here we go. I was once a personal trainer until I gave my two "weak" notice. Chris Moe (01:36.388) That's right. Ha ha ha. Chris Moe (01:45.134) Hahaha Chris Moe (01:57.468) Yeah, I think you gotta pay a toll to tell that one. It took, it's a thinking joke. It's a thinking joke, but it sucks the joy out of it. It's also about quitting, right? Like. Brent Peterson (02:02.608) It is, I mean it's a thinking joke, you had to think for a second. Yeah. All right, that's fair. All right, sucks the joy. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I mean, I'm quitting because I'm too weak. I said in our green room, I've got this open A, I'm using Rapid API to get my jokes. Nope, we're gonna go right into content because these are horrible jokes. I don't think there's any good that are worth it. So tell us a little bit about, I mean, who would ever thought, I guess, even when, is it 30 years now that Amazon started that... Chris Moe (02:29.688) Hahaha Brent Peterson (02:42.658) that we would be in a place where there's a company that's like yours, that's devoted to just helping companies on Amazon, right? Tell us a little bit about your company, how you started it and, and why the biggest thing is why, why does it exist? Chris Moe (02:49.529) Ha ha. Chris Moe (02:59.632) Sure, sure. It's funny you say that. Probably, I have a vivid memory of about 10 years ago, I was working in finance and I saw this news article about a company that had raised a bunch of money and what they did was help people use Salesforce. They raised like 25 million bucks and I was like, what? How could a company exist to help somebody use another tech product? And here we are. So how we got our start. So I was a, for most of my career, a consultant at McKinsey & Company. Did a lot of work in growth for consumer facing and a lot of education work, actually. And my co-founder, John, he had built the first Amazon team at GE in consumer electronics. I built that into a pretty big business eight to 10 years ago. Realized that he had sold enough extension cords to last a lifetime and met some food brands in the better for you category that he was passionate about. Helped them out on Amazon, called me up and said there's really something here to build. Raised a little bit of money from Boulder Food Group and Cartograph was born. So it's been about six years. We've worked actively with about. 200 different brands managing them on Amazon and yeah, it's been a lot of fun. Brent Peterson (04:19.594) So you kind of both came in from a separate space and what made you come together as partners to do this? Chris Moe (04:28.144) Um, I actually think we both had a particular skill set. So John knew Amazon very deeply and 10 years ago, there were not that many people who knew how to operate Amazon for businesses. Like I was talking to someone today and most major CPG businesses weren't on Amazon in a meaningful way until the pandemic. This is very recent history. And so he knew about how to operate Amazon. I actually knew a little bit about startups and growth, and I knew a lot about consulting. How to... run good client engagements, how to communicate, how to be disciplined and scale a team. And the combo of those two things and a little bit of experience and a lot of passion for the better for you industry was enough for us to get started. And there was just like a huge gap in the market. There's no one who knew how to do this. We got pretty lucky with some of our first clients, you'll know some of them, Fortinheart, Guy, Justin's Nut Butters, Lily's Chocolates, These were like tiny little brands back then and we started working with them and they grew super fast. And so from there we said okay we got something word spread and yeah we grew every year for the last six. Brent Peterson (05:50.634) That's awesome. So tell us today, I do want to kind of just dive into the food and beverage industry. I mentioned in the green room, we have a couple of guests that have just recently recorded that are going to be on the show. And they're all in the food and beverage industry. So tell us about how that niche happened and what that means for especially for Amazon sellers. Chris Moe (06:11.088) Sure, sure. So I think that food and beverage for us, emerging food and beverage became a big trend in the mid 2010s because I think there was a few crucial stories where the major CPG brands failed to do innovation well themselves. And instead of, you know, these giant corporations basically have a choice to either find a way to make a cool, interesting, innovative brand. or they can just let someone else do it and then buy it later at 500 million bucks or a billion dollars. And so I think some of those early exits, stuff like RX bar, those created this kind of a gold rush for new and emerging brands. And some of the big stuff back then, really a trend we rode was the keto trend, which was everyone in 2018 and 2019 was looking for keto products. And when there is a very specific need for a product type, people will go to online because it's not gonna be in retail stores. And so that kind of was like the first wave for us in food and bath. And so it's been a big part of our journeys, like tracking the trends and figuring out what is. what is what's coming. Everyone's been waiting for the next keto and it's really interesting the last four years to be like what is the next keto or what are the next things coming. Brent Peterson (07:39.754) Yeah, what are the next things? Chris Moe (07:42.06) Well, so we just went to the expo west, the natural products expo west, and I think there's a few things that were really interesting. One, this was the first expo that felt as energetic as 2019. Like there is money back in the system, like there is energy around the products. A few things that fun that stuck out. One random one that I love is clear protein. So it's protein that dissolves clear. in a liquid. And it sounds so silly, because like, who cares, right? But there's a lot of brands betting on it. And that the premise is, is a clear liquid a different drinking occasion than a shake? Like, could you drink it at a different time or all day? Can we change the way that people consume protein supplements? Because protein supplements right now are pretty event-driven. It's like, I went to the gym. I need it during this time of day. It's a meal replacement. So that's one that's really fun. And I think it's a good example of what innovation in food and beverage is about. It's not always as big of ideas as you might think in tech. Another big one that we've been talking about on our team is about how form factors innovation. So there are a ton of gummies coming to market. Gummy this, gummy that, gummy everything. And Brent Peterson (09:06.075) Mm-hmm. Chris Moe (09:13.148) I think that there's been a change in gummy tech. I don't actually know enough to really know, but now the ability to suspend a lot of different ingredients, flavors, form factors, textures and so forth. But what we're seeing is that people are taking supplements and putting them into gummies. And the bet is that this actually opens an entirely new. category and it again kind of feels a little bit silly but um you know not only are there plenty of people who don't like swallowing pills um there is really big precedent for this like liquid iv the stick pack of electromint powder their innovation was basically put it in a little envelope these tubs existed. They sold a lot of those tubs before Liquid Ivy, but then boom, billion dollar business. And so creatine gummies are big, greens gummies are big, all these different gummies for like solving some of your ailments are like a new way to do supplements and a new way to consume. Brent Peterson (10:16.83) Yeah, Cheech and Chong, I get their gummy ads all the time on Twitter. Chris Moe (10:20.972) That is another thing that, you know, gummies have really changed that industry in cannabis. Brent Peterson (10:26.806) Yeah, I think Jesse Ventura, the former governor of Minnesota, has a new company now where he's, I think he's doing gummies anyways, that's beside the point. You know, it's interesting in the food and beverage. One of the things is just going to a powder, not shipping the water. Is there a difference between having to sell your product in a can or in a bottle compared to like liquid IV or? one of the other brands that allows you to have it in a solid form or like noon or something like that. Is it easier for them to sell on Amazon than it is in a can or having to ship that water is expensive? Chris Moe (11:10.896) Totally, totally. So you actually bring up one of the more interesting dynamics in e-comm and in food and bev. It is way easier to not ship liquid. It is way more profitable, way more efficient, just because a lot of ship cost is determined by weight. And so anything that has water in a can is very costly. And so like your best e-commerce products are small, light, and expensive. And so... Bottles of water are basically the opposite of that. And so it's a very challenging thing. Now, the thing that's really interesting is there's a lot of beverage brands who realize this sometime in their life cycle, especially in the emerging set, and they then will often launch a powdered product of some sort. Maybe it tastes the same way, maybe it has a similar function or something along those lines. And it's actually super difficult because people like drinking liquids a lot more than they like doing the arts and crafts and mixing them themselves. And it's also like a totally different buying experience and supply chain and all that kind of stuff. Like people see you on shelf, they grab it from a... you know, a cooler or refrigerator or a grocery store shelf, the powders are not that. And so it's actually, even though it feels like the same thing to the consumer, it's quite difficult for these brands to effectively pivot their sales. It's almost like they have to teach a consumer a totally new buying experience, even though it like seemingly converges on the same thing once you mix it with the liquid. It's pretty challenging actually. Brent Peterson (12:55.466) Yeah, I suppose there's a difference in the amount of powder you put in for water and like that actual taste or what it's supposed to taste like. You don't really know until I guess there's a recommended 16 ounces per package or whatever that is, but your gatorade in a bottle is always going to be that gatorade in a bottle or the gatorade in a little scoop is who knows what, right? Chris Moe (13:19.404) Right, and you don't have to carry it with you when you're ready, you just go to the store and those Gatorades are everywhere. Brent Peterson (13:24.778) Yeah, so I'm a runner, so I think that having those little packages is super helpful. forgetting, you know, especially in a race, you can just pour it in or whatever, or before a race. And if you travel too, it's much easier. All right, so tell us a little bit about how you help specifically in the food and beverage, how do you help them get, it must be hard to get seen on Amazon and making sure you have a brand, I suppose is one of the most important things, right? Chris Moe (13:37.338) RAIN. Chris Moe (13:59.596) Yeah, yeah, I think gone are the days where you could just sell a generic product. There is kind of a golden era of e-commerce where you could sell a generic product, find a niche that people need something and just sell it. Now, really we work exclusively with brands. And basically the way that you find, you get attention on Amazon is... Really what it all comes down to is creative, what we call the collective creative on Amazon, which is that square of your product. You have your image, your title, your stars, your price and your ship speed. You have to craft that creative and there's a lot of little things that you can do with like how do you Photoshop the image and stuff like that, call out the right little details and so forth. and then build your star rating to be at least competitive. Once that creative is relevant enough for the category that you're targeting, then what you do is then you take action to put that creative, get to give it more exposure. And if indeed your assumption is right, that creative clicks through and it converts, then this flywheel begins. And so that's really what we do is we make sure we tell the story really well. And like, it's, it's not just storytelling. It's like the Photoshop, it's the pricing. It's like, is the supply chain right? And then ask ourselves the question and the how is with advertising. Where can we put this where people were actually would answer the question that people seem to be asking with their shopping behavior or the search terms they're typing into the search bar. Brent Peterson (15:40.682) In that, I mean, it's easy for the client to control everything except for the stars, right? The reviews, I mean, so that's what we were talking about for the stars. How do you drive that review process? And then, I mean, a lot of times it's a red flag when it's five stars all the time. Do you, I mean, I don't know, is there a magic that like 4.9 is better than a five sometimes, especially Chris Moe (15:51.684) Yep. Brent Peterson (16:09.842) If you have 3000 reviews, you're not going to have a five, a full five star. Uh, because people are maybe not going to believe it. I don't know. Chris Moe (16:15.309) Right. Chris Moe (16:19.664) Right, right. Well, what I'll say is Most of pretty much all of our clients would be tremendously thrilled with 4.9 stars on 3,000 reviews. It's pretty hard. It's pretty hard to get that It stars are an interesting thing. It actually really depends on category what average rating looks like so you know some products that are like very what you see is what you get. Like the best reviewed spatula on Amazon, it's probably 4.9 stars because it's really good at doing that spatula thing. But in food and beverage, someone doesn't like the flavor. Like you're not always gonna be five stars. And so some of ours, like there are some categories that really sit lower than average. Like one, for example, non-alcoholic drinks. there's a lot of disappointment in non-alcoholic drinks because people expect them to be a lot like alcoholic drinks. And so the average on those is between three and a half and four. But anyway, to answer your question on like how to manage the reviews, it's pretty tough. There's some services that you can do, like Amazon has a sampling program called Vine that helps build your first 30 reviews per product. You can do things like Brent Peterson (17:13.218) brain. Chris Moe (17:36.492) have inserts in your product that say like, hey, don't forget to leave us a review. And you wanna be careful on how aggressive you get with those that you stay within Amazon's terms. But ultimately your best thing that you can do long-term for reviews is make sure that what you are promising in your content and the package actually matches the experience the customer gets. And like... Basically, Amazon is, it's like a reasonably, reasonably honest place. Like you can't fake bad product. It just doesn't work long-term, like maybe for a little bit. And maybe you can make a 4.2, a pure 4.5 product, but you cannot make a three-star product be a five-star product. It's just not possible. So, I'm gonna go ahead and start with Amazon. Brent Peterson (18:24.498) Yeah, I bought a, I did, I bought a license plate holder for a Tesla and it's a clip in, you know, so it doesn't have to, I didn't have to drill any holes. And it ended up coming from China. It was a, for a Model Y and the person I'm assuming was just starting, he already had, I thought they had good reviews, but Chris Moe (18:34.058) Okay. Brent Peterson (18:44.998) I had a lot of emails from the founder on, can you please leave me a five-star review? Can you write a review about it? And then I wrote the review and he's like, oh, can you just change a few things? Cause your review makes it feel like there was something wrong. When I said, I got the package, I thought it was missing a screw, and then I found the screw. And... Chris Moe (18:46.672) I'm going to go to bed. Chris Moe (19:01.124) Ha ha ha. Chris Moe (19:11.86) Right. Brent Peterson (19:12.306) And in the meantime, like they had been super helpful in saying, we'll get a screw out to you right away. And he's like, Oh, can he change it? Just make it so it's like you just had, you know, and so I did, I did change it because it was my mistake, but he was extremely aggressive on, I mean, he was nice about it, but, and he also was very clear that he's a one-man show. Like he's in, he was in Hong Kong manufacturing this little tiny product and then shipping it to the U S one at a time over Amazon. Um, so I. Chris Moe (19:18.453) Yeah. Chris Moe (19:30.263) Right. Chris Moe (19:39.372) Wow, right, right. Yeah, that's more of an aggressive review approach for sure. Like I'm guessing he found your contact info somehow, which is actually like, he probably did some kind of like data triangulation service that found a way to get in contact with you because it's actually Amazon doesn't allow it on the platform directly. Brent Peterson (19:43.292) Yeah, go ahead. Right. Chris Moe (20:05.804) But yeah, that's where you're pushing a little bit into the gray territory on review strategy. Brent Peterson (20:12.878) Do you think, I mean, just diving in this briefly because I do a lot of business in India, do you think there's a cultural difference on how people reach, like how that, like a merchant would reach out to you in China, India, US? I think North America, including Mexico, are pretty coherent on how we should treat our customers. But man, I have some very aggressive vendors that come to me from... Chris Moe (20:32.722) Mmm. Brent Peterson (20:40.862) the South Asia region that don't quite understand some of those nuances. And maybe it's not Amazon, but it just feels like there's definitely a cultural different in how you treat your merchant or your, your client. Chris Moe (20:55.96) Yeah, you know, I think if I'm to pontificate a little bit on the idea, I think it might have to do with like the degree of trust in the business world. And that, yeah, in like American business culture, there's like a ton of like trust that things just move smoothly, right? package arrives on your doorstep, no one takes it. Somebody sends you an invoice most of the time and for something that you bought, most of the time you pay it. And I think maybe in other markets that like, perhaps are like not as mature markets or like still developing, that trust is a little bit harder to come by. And so that, and that... then gets into a lot of other dynamics, which is like, if I don't dictate what exactly Brent is gonna do, who knows what he'll do? Like, it's only my business. Like, I gotta defend it, I gotta protect it, versus me, Chris, I can get off this podcast, I'm like, I know Brent won't like, post me on like a bad website or something, or you know, like I don't worry about that. Yeah. Brent Peterson (21:56.11) Right, yeah, good point. Yep. Brent Peterson (22:12.694) Yeah, you don't know actually know where this podcast because it is going to go to you. It's gonna, yeah. There you go. So let's talk briefly about ads and how you can promote your product. And one thing I don't know, and so I'm interested in this subject, but is there a Google Analytics for Amazon? And I'm assuming there is, that you as somebody can learn how you're. Chris Moe (22:18.644) You never know. It could go anywhere. You could email it to my mom. Brent Peterson (22:39.842) how your traffic is and how are you performing just for your product, even for your product page, but yeah, for your product page, but that would help you on your ad spend, right? Chris Moe (22:52.272) Totally, totally. So yeah, there is a pretty broad and constantly evolving ecosystem of Amazon data. Most of it provided by Amazon actually. It's not very much third party. of performance of your pages. And what's funny is it has been built in bits and pieces in different departments. So there's probably like no less than 20 different data sources that Amazon provides that none of them tell the total complete picture. And so I think earlier you asked, why do we exist? This is one of the reasons we exist. It's because piecing together the puzzle of all of that is really difficult. You have your detail page traffic conversion, but that in a totally different world is your advertising traffic and conversion and click metrics and so forth. And then there's a different world that has, here's some of the detail on individual search queries, what, like on an organic basis, what your conversion, and like you try to add them up, it's super hard. It's like difficult to tell the story. And actually even recently, it's like probably in the last year, Amazon has released something called their marketing cloud, the Amazon marketing cloud AMC. And this is definitely, this definitely feels like a post Bezos move. Bezos was like pretty walled garden about the data. And since he left leading Amazon. a lot more data has been shared. And so with Amazon Marketing Cloud, the power of it is you can basically construct audiences to target for display advertising, and then you can also do analytics. Chris Moe (24:39.736) because they're basically the same thing. You say, I wanna see everybody who typed in the same search that Brent did between last Tuesday and three weeks ago, and they've bought that spatula before. And so now you can see the analytics on that, which is like how many people have done it, and then you can also construct the audiences on it. And so this is like a whole new world, all the like Amazon industry. tech platforms and service providers have been talking about it, but it's still in practice not used all that much. And yeah, I mean, like, that's kind of like a big reason why you hire an agency is to help is to be like, okay, how do we utilize this thing? How do we actually get leverage out of it? And the big question I always ask is like, how can we go from interesting insight to actually incremental impact? Because interesting insights are usually pretty easy to come by, but actual impact, actual incrementality is a lot harder. Brent Peterson (25:44.742) Yeah, I mean, I think it'd be like some big company doing something like universal analytics and then switching to the version four of whatever that was and making it 10 times more complicated and more bespoke. Chris Moe (25:59.188) Yeah, yeah. And like every time it happens, it's like a huge, you know, head fake. Everyone's like, Oh, are we doing it wrong? Like, do we need to change the way that we operate? And, you know, so if you're, if you're a smaller brand or operator, it can be, it can be challenging to keep up with. And then the tough thing too, is the landscape of all the people who operate on Amazon. varies by so much. Some people are very serious Amazon operators that only use a certain type of advertising or don't have any subscriptions versus there are advertisers who only advertise on the streaming platforms or things like that now. And so navigating the ecosystem is tough and it changes all the time. Brent Peterson (26:43.074) Going like the rest of this year, maybe even into 2025, where do you see Amazon shining and where do you see it kind of pulling back and sort of maybe even losing some market share? Chris Moe (26:58.736) Hmm, good question on losing the market share. I mean, I think, so the big news of like the last month is Amazon has changed their fees on, basically they're trying to pass on freight costs from moving about the network. And so the old way of working with Amazon is we would ship in a pallet to the local fulfillment center. whichever one's in your region, there's like multiple in almost every state. And then Amazon would disperse it around the country. And what Amazon is now saying is, if you want to still do that, it costs money. If you don't wanna pay that money, you gotta send it to three or four different warehouses all across the country. And it's a pretty big cost swing. So that's change one. Like you're going from low hundreds for a big LTL shipment to even thousand, like low thousands for an LTL shipment. So it's like a pretty big hit to the P&L and a lot of Amazon operators are pretty upset about that. Having pretty decent margin impacts for a slim margin business. The other one is there now is a low inventory fee as well. Which is. If your fee, if your inventory goes below 28 days, you pay an extra 30 cents to a dollar per item shipped. And... Amazon won't say exactly why, but my senses is it actually has to do with the network thing, which is if you have low inventory, chances are they have to ship something cross country and they still have to hit that prime one to two day. And so they're saying 30 days of supply most likely gets you there. So these are actually definitely got people upset with Amazon in a way that... Chris Moe (28:55.112) folks have not been in quite some time. Like even I can remember. And these are the people that are Amazon's biggest champions, right? The ones who sell on the platform. I think that's an area where there's definitely been some ire for Amazon. Brent Peterson (29:14.098) Yeah, so do you think that these like this new retail media network buzz that's happening and you know Walmart and Now target there everybody's making their own sort of little mini Amazon and I think even Shopify was attempting I think Shopify's model of trying to do something like that is it's kind of stalled but All that I suppose has to put pressure on Amazon Chris Moe (29:42.028) Yeah, totally. And, um, yeah, retail media is a funny thing. Online grocery shopping is, has been super hard for any of these players to get traction. You know, Walmart being the biggest example, spent tons of money. And I think, I think the data is now saying Walmart is growing. I think the way to look at this question is actually you have to go category by category because there are certain categories for which the nuances of the different platforms match super well. And there's actually like examples of this, like the places Amazon has not won or won in a definitive way, like the fact that Chewy exists, Chewy's a big pet e-commerce platform, or that Thrive Market exists, which is like healthy foods. Like Amazon has not figured out a way to do... perishable foods or groceries. Like they change the policies on Amazon fresh free shipping. Their store rollouts are always kinda, doesn't seem like there's a ton of energy behind it. They're all very preliminary. And like Walmart crushes in grocery. Like Walmart's grip on America is like largely that so many Americans buy all their groceries, their perishable groceries at Walmart. And so, yeah, I mean, Brent Peterson (30:37.591) Hmm. Chris Moe (31:05.28) Amazon's definitely feeling the pressure on a bunch of different fronts, but then there's other places that Amazon really wins at. Like, I'd say beauty's probably one of the biggest categories that Amazon has made really successful in roads in, that a lot of people, like five years ago, Sephora could convince most beauty vendors to not list on Amazon, and now everyone's on Amazon, and then even more so, like, you ask somebody where are you gonna go look for shampoo or body wash. Usually Amazon's one of the first places that they go to look at it. So it's like very different by category. And then like another one that Amazon has not figured out is apparel. Even though Amazon fashion is like, it's big, people buy from it. There's a reason that everyone seems to have the same Halloween costume now. Because the platform doesn't actually work for clothes shopping. It's like, there aren't words to describe it. I could go on this forever. But, uh... .. Brent Peterson (32:08.122) Yeah, no, I mean, I'll you know, we winter in Hawaii. And so I wanted to get some long sleeve Hawaiian shirts for all these trade shows I was telling you about. And I first I bought one from Aloha something or another and it had come in from Hong Kong, which it took a month to get here. But then I went to Amazon and I bought them. I bought some long sleeve Hawaiian shirts. And they came like within two days. But the sizing was terrible. Like I bought two different brands and I had to Chris Moe (32:15.881) Oh nice. Chris Moe (32:26.401) Right. Brent Peterson (32:37.49) I returned like three of them. Now, we have Whole Foods, we have a bunch of places to return the stuff to. So it's super helpful. I mean, it's really easy to do it, right? And you would think too, like going back to groceries, you'd think that where Whole Foods exists that Amazon could crush the grocery market. Like you would think that delivering all those things, I know it's a lot more complicated than that than just being able to deliver. Chris Moe (32:47.244) Right. Chris Moe (32:57.741) Yeah. Chris Moe (33:04.994) Yeah. Brent Peterson (33:07.294) All right, so we have a few minutes left here. I give everybody a chance to do a shameless plug about anything you'd like. What would you like to plug today? Chris Moe (33:20.2) Okay, you know, I was brainstorming on this and I don't think I actually have anything like fun or interesting too much. But I'm going to say if you enjoyed any of these hot takes or these, you know, thoughts on different consumer industries, find us on LinkedIn. We have, we post a lot of content. I read a lot of it myself. You can sign up for our newsletter. You can either just add me, Chris Mo on LinkedIn or Cartograph. And yeah, if you're passionate about consumer products or e-commerce, a lot of conversation goes down there. So we'd love to have people join the chat. Brent Peterson (34:02.358) Awesome. Yeah. And we are already connected. You're in Austin. Are you? So Austin, I have to talk about entrepreneurs organization. Austin has the biggest chapter. I'm part of EO Minnesota. Austin has the biggest chapter in the, I think in the world. It's like 200, they should split. But if you, you as a founder, you should check it out. They have such a, it's such a great chapter down there anyways. Chris Moe (34:17.993) Oh. Brent Peterson (34:31.33) Chris, it's been a great conversation. It's been very enjoyable. Thank you for showing up today and talking about Amazon and all the intricacies that a lot of us have no clue about that helps get our stuff to our doors. Chris Moe (34:48.492) My pleasure, thanks for having me, Brent.