Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Ep# 120: Welcome to the Marketing Rebellion! Why the Most Human Company Will Win.

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Ep# 120: Welcome to the Marketing Rebellion! Why the Most Human Company Will Win. · Mortgage Marketing Radio

0:00
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1:17
Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio.
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Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth
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in mortgage marketing.
1:26
Hey, listeners, what's up?
1:33
This is Jeff Zimfer, your humble host, Chief Truth Teller here at Mortgage Marketing
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Radio podcast.
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Welcome back.
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All right.
2:38
So this episode, as always, is brought to you by Mortgage Marketing Institute and the
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Mortgage Marketing Pro membership.
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What is the pro membership you ask?
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It is the place.
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If you are looking to get more success with real estate agents and build a predictable stream
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of purchase money referrals delivered to you every single week, every single month like
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clockwork.
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And how do we do that?
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We do that by largely equipping you to teach agent classes and do it in a way that hasn't
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been done before because look at classes and something new, but how you do classes, right?
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How you get butts in the seats, the content you teach, how you promote the class, and
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most importantly, how you leverage that platform as a thought leader to attract, capture and
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convert the right realtors to referral partners.
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That's what makes it different.
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And that's where we come in at Mortgage Marketing Pro membership with our built-in platform
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called my agent classes.
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Imagine this every single month, you get a brand new class, turnkey delivered to you,
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PowerPoint, video tutorial, handouts, speaker notes, done for you, custom flyer, souped
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and that's teach you how to get butts in the seats, teach you how to present confidently
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and teach you how to convert agents to attend your classes to meetings and referrals.
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And if that wasn't enough, hey folks, we're not forgetting, we're combining the online
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with offline, keeping the human touch with high tech.
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And that is inside the pro membership is also an ongoing growing library of self-paced
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There's a short video I posted.
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You can go watch it at mortgagedmarketing.pro to learn more and see if that is for you.
4:29
All right, onto this week's special guest.
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All I can say is, you know, it's an honor and a privilege to have my special guest on
4:36
this episode.
4:37
Let me just read you a little bit about a bio about my special guest here.
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Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized speaker educator, business consultant author who
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blogs at Grow, that's his blog, it's one of the top marketing blogs in the world.
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He also has a podcast, his podcast is called Marketing Companion, it's among the top
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one percent of podcasts in business shows on iTunes.
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He's among the world's most recognized marketing authorities and minute keynote speaker
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at conferences, including social media week, London, the National Economic Development
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Association.
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My gosh, she goes on and on, the word of mouth marketing summit in Tokyo.
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He is a faculty member of graduate studies programs at Rutgers University.
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He studied under Peter Drucker while studying for his MBA and if anybody's listening doesn't
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know who Peter Drucker is, you need to Google him, kind of the grandfather of modern marketing,
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if you will.
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And he's been in marketing and positions in sales for more than 30 years and executive
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director of his own US based firm, Schaefer marketing solutions.
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And the list goes on in terms of his clients, their global brands like Dale Johnson and
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Johnson, Adidas, US Air Force and mom and pop startups, small companies as well.
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If that's not enough, he's also the author of six best selling books, the Tower of Twitter,
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social media explained, return on influence, born to blog content code and known, which
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are two excellent books and his brand new book called Marketing Rebellion, the most
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human company wins.
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And we talk a lot about relevant things for you as a listener on this podcast.
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We talked about the rebellion that's happening from the consumer side, right?
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What do I mean by that?
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Well, we're going to talk about some of the pillar concepts in Mark's book, the end of control,
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the end of loyalty, for example, and how it's not the most automated company or the best
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technology that's going to win or, you know, the most awesome sales funnel that's going
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to win.
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Here's who's going to win in this disruption.
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The most human company will win.
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And so I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, lots of learning lessons in
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here.
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We put links to everything in the show notes, marks, books, websites, his blog and podcast
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and all that kind of stuff.
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So enjoy this episode, share it with somebody you care about, share it with somebody else
6:46
in business and without further ado, let's get into this week's show.
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Mark, Shane, for welcome to the show, I'm delighted to be back here with you.
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Always great to hear from you.
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Yeah, man.
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Great to connect with you as well.
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And thank you so much for making time.
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I know you're incredibly busy.
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I'm surprised that I was able to catch you.
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I've been enjoying and reading digging into your book, Marketing Rebellion.
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And, you know, unfortunately, we don't have time to talk about everything in the book,
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but that's why we're going to encourage people to go buy it.
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It's sort of a vast book.
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It is.
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It is quite a vast book.
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I was digging through making notes and I'm like, there's no way we have time to talk
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about it.
7:28
Yeah.
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So what I wanted to do is pick out some of the highlights and I want to start with the
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title because it's obviously it's a thought provoking title.
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Is there really a rebellion, a rebellion underfoot?
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Well, that was a hard title to come up with, by the way, because some people didn't like
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it because rebellion sort of hints at something negative and violent and that is not me.
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And that's why the subtitle is the most human company wins.
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And someone asked me, well, what is this rebellion?
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What's the point of this rebellion?
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And if you open up the book for the people that buy the hard cover, the paper, back book,
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then even the Kindle book, when you open up the cover, the first thing you see is a photo.
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It's a picture.
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And that's very unusual.
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Most books don't do that.
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They have a, you know, an author page or something or a title page, there you go.
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So he's showing this picture to the people looking at video, if it's audio, you'll just have
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to imagine this.
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There's a picture of a lady holding up a sign that says, respect me.
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And I said, I think that's the rebellion is that people are just fed up with robo calls
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and spam and getting their mailboxes filled with direct mail that's littering the environment
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and people are saying, just stop it, respect me, respect my time, respect my life, respect
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my privacy and the companies that figure that out and treat people the way we want to
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be treated.
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He just put yourself first as a human being and a customer.
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Those are the companies that will eventually win.
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The most human company wins and I believe that with all my heart and that's really what
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the rebellion is about.
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Yeah.
9:07
It's interesting.
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I'm definitely feeling it, right?
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And I'm going through some things because it's oftentimes like, you know, and I teach
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in this industry and teach like my, you know, loan officers that we've got to, you know,
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deliver that human touch that.
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I deal personal experience and then I'm out in the field right now.
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Let me give you an example.
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I'm actually shopping for a home here in Las Vegas.
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So I am now my customer, right?
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And I'm going through the process that a normal customer would go through and my experience
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is not good, which is kind of shocking and surprising to me.
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I mean, not good to the point where I fill out an online app on a Saturday because I'm
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trying to get a pre-approval and Tuesday comes and I get an email, no phone call, no nothing,
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right?
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And I'm thinking we're talking about a significant size transaction for somebody here and two business
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days goes by and an email comes, you know?
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Right.
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Now, are you telling me they couldn't pick up the phone?
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Right.
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That's the call.
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And say, oh my gosh, you know, please forgive us.
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We respect your time.
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We're going to make it up to you.
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That's all it would take, really.
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And I think what you're bringing up here is really an excellent point.
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And that is, Jeff, we're even before we started recording, we were talking about this balance
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of automation, which can help us be more personal, more tuned in.
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We can be more responsive.
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But when we over rely on automation, then we're abusing people and we're pushing them away.
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We're using technology as a barrier.
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We should be using technology to reduce barriers between us and our customers.
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So in that example, it's a perfect example.
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People are using technology in a way that is turning you away instead of bringing you
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closer.
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And that kind of segues to a couple of key points you've got in your book in chapter
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one, you talk about the end of control.
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And I definitely feel like, you know, I was looking for the best experience, the best
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easy, easiest use, right, as a consumer.
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And of course, when a consumer process is broken, like we just described, right,
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they dropped the ball.
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They didn't follow up.
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The online process wasn't great.
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And so I'm in control.
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I can easily just cut ties and go find a better solution.
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Well, even more than that, Jeff, you could have mentioned them by name on this show, right?
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Right.
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I don't want to do that, but yeah, you can, you can leave a review on, you know,
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on their site or on an industry site, right?
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You can write a blog post about this.
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You could talk about this on LinkedIn.
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Now, maybe you're, you know, a gentleman in an industry leader and you don't want to
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do that.
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But most people will.
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Right.
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Right.
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Well, they don't have the stakes in the grid that like I do, yeah.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, the customer is in control.
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The customer is the marketer today.
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So in your case, they could have won you over and you'd be singing their praises and
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recommending them to everybody, right?
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Yeah.
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So they've got the mindset today is two thirds of our marketing is occurring without us.
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We can't buy our way in like we used to in the old days with advertising or PR or whatever
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or coupons, right?
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We have to find a way to be invited to that two thirds because here in this perfect example,
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that customer could have made you an advocate and people aren't seeing their ads.
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They see their ads, they don't believe their ads, but they believe you, especially you
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because you're, you know, a voice of authority in the industry.
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Now, here's another interesting example of that.
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And I know in the book, you may not call it out exactly like this, but you know, kind
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of a, the personal is a, well, you talk about people want to feel that they care, that
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they matter, right?
12:48
Yeah.
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And in this process, and we'll get back into the book here in a second, but I think in
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this process, what they did was they sent an automated canned video that basically said,
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hey, welcome to here's the next step.
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So it was so robotic and unpersonalized and unfeeling, you know, I mean, it was a complete
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turn off.
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Well, that's, there's a difference between personalized and personal, the company and
13:13
this is so interesting, Jeff, because in the early in the book, I have this research that
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shows this, this chasm between how businesses think they're doing and how consumers think
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they're doing.
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So in this case, the business thinks, oh, look, Jeff signed up for this service.
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We sent him a video just for him about this service.
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And you're going, oh, my gosh, this is so lame.
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This has nothing to do with me.
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And it's a perfect example of the difference between personalization versus personal.
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Yeah.
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So personalization, they sent you a video.
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It was a human being of something somewhat related to what you're buying.
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But that's not someone making a little video.
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I mean, for the cost of that video, probably, they could have hired a person for a year
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to send you a personal video that say, hey, Jeff, hey, welcome, if you've got any questions,
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my name's Samantha, give me a call.
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Thanks so much for being our customer and you would have gone, whoa, that's personal.
14:19
Right.
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A difference.
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Exactly.
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It doesn't even take that long in today's world to pick up your phone, you know, talking
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about technology, you could get a notification that you just got an application, pick up my
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phone, do a quick video message, you know, Hey, Mark, what's up?
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Just saw your, you know, your online app, you know, we'll be getting back to you as, you
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know, that kind of thing.
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That's a personal touch, too.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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All right.
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So let's talk about this.
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You say loyalty is dead.
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All right.
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How's that for dramatic?
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Dying.
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Dying?
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It's different.
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Okay.
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Different.
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I like that better than the end of loyalty.
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It's, it's different.
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And, and let me tell you something, I know a lot of your listeners are going, huh, what?
14:57
And I did too.
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I mean, I've been in marketing more than 30 years, but the purpose of this book is to
15:04
be a wake up call to say, look, you have to make your own decisions as a, as a business
15:08
owner, but at least have the information about what's going on out there.
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And there is profound, undeniable research that shows that consumers are, you know,
15:22
less loyal today and in many industries, there is no loyalty.
15:27
One of the points I make in this book, and again, this isn't, the book isn't Mark Schafer's
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opinion of the world.
15:32
Yeah.
15:33
Here's the research coming from McKinsey and Accenture and Deloitte and Harvard and Boston
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Consulting Group that's, and they're all singing the same thing and around loyalty, McKinsey
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did this research that showed across 80 different industries, only 13% of our customers can
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be considered loyalty, loyal.
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And that's a dramatic difference over 20 or 25 years ago, and the big change, the change
16:01
agent here is technology is enabling these hyper-powered and power consumers to just switch
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around.
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In 90% of those industries, Jeff, there was no loyalty.
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And I'm thinking especially in the real estate and the mortgage market, there's probably
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almost no loyalty.
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People just, you know, they want to deal.
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Now, here's a clue of to what's going on and how to correct that.
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In the McKinsey report, they said, what's happened here?
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Why has there been this decline because there's a lack of emotion connecting to the brand?
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Now, there's the solution, there's the opportunity, how do we build or rebuild that loyalty?
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How do we build emotion?
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Because McKinsey's absolutely right, and they're acknowledging what you and I have just
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been talking about, everybody's automating everything.
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And here's this company that's trying to automate things for you, they just blown any
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chance of loyalty that you've ever had.
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If they would have created a true human connection, you would have been flipped, right?
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So that's why, say, in the book, in the past, our businesses and brands were built through
17:20
an accumulation of advertising impressions, but today, they're built through an accumulation
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of human impressions.
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This is a perfect example.
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This company had an opportunity to create emotion, to create a real human connection with
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you, and they blew it, because they over-aligned on technology, and that's exactly the problem.
17:42
That's why you're not loyal, could have, if they established the emotion, but it takes
17:48
work, you've got the ease, marketing, easy button is over, you've got to roll up your
17:55
sleeves, and you've got to show up.
17:57
And the emotional connection, too, would also have made me more forgiving, right?
18:02
Oh, great point, great point.
18:06
There's one of the examples in the book, one of my sort of, and I want to say, that the
18:11
book isn't all doom and gloom.
18:13
Everything you and I have talked about so far is chapter one, like I said.
18:19
It's a vast book, but I mean, I give literally hundreds of ideas of how to overcome this,
18:28
from one of the big ideas, this is idea of peak moments.
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Just as you said, if you have an experience with your company, with a company that makes
18:37
you go, oh wow, I really like that.
18:42
That's something cool enough, I would tell my friends, you're willing to forgive the mistakes.
18:46
You're willing to overlook the potholes and still be positive about the company.
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Okay, so ideas, right?
18:54
As we know, people want, listeners want kind of actionable ideas.
18:57
So we're talking about concepts, and that's cool.
18:59
Loyalty's dead.
19:00
I think my industry gets it because technology has enabled that, which you pointed out.
19:03
So it's a certain degree, double-apping, you know, let's just say at the rocket mortgages
19:07
of the world, right, get a loan approval in five minutes, even though it's not really
19:11
real.
19:12
No, I can testify to that.
19:17
I tried it, didn't work.
19:20
That's amazing.
19:21
It's true, man.
19:22
But here's the thing though, they have trained technology advertising.
19:25
It's an interesting point about seniors, we're talking about, you know, rocket.
19:28
They have trained the expectations is what advertising in that context has done is the expectations
19:34
now around technology has been that it should be simple, but here's the thing.
19:38
It's also to our point here, removed the emotion or connection from that and that people
19:45
are, what advertising is saying to them is everything should be able to be done right
19:48
through your laptop or your phone.
19:51
And I want to, I want to make an important point here that you still have to deliver the
19:57
goods.
19:58
Okay.
19:59
So, expediency matters today, you know, let's not kid ourselves, removing friction matters
20:07
today, becoming a habit matters.
20:10
So I mean, if you use one mortgage broker or one real estate agent and you have a positive
20:14
experience, you're likely to keep using that because you just don't want to change,
20:18
people are sort of inherently lazy.
20:20
I had an experience where I was looking to do a real estate investment and the bank
20:25
that I wanted to use for the mortgage said, oh, we've got this new process where you
20:31
can do all this online.
20:34
So basically the old process was you gathered all your documents, all your tax returns,
20:38
all your, you know, all your forms that would talk about your income, blah, blah, blah,
20:44
blah.
20:45
So you're mortgage broker, your lender, and you would hand over these documents and
20:50
they would look them over and make some copies and say, okay, great, sign this and you're
20:53
done.
20:54
Now, here's the online process.
20:56
You take all these documents and you scan them into the app.
21:01
Wow.
21:02
It's worse.
21:03
That's real efficient.
21:06
It's terrible.
21:07
It's worse.
21:09
It's not online.
21:10
It's not digitized.
21:11
They're basically saying, oh, no, you do the work.
21:15
So it's like, you got to be kidding me and they're so proud of this, Lord, you know,
21:19
that goes back to your point earlier that said, the companies think they're doing well,
21:23
but our experience of is they're not.
21:25
No, no, no, no, and it's, so, so efficiency matters, reducing friction matters, delivering
21:33
the goods matters, then you can be human.
21:37
You know, one other quick story about that that's relevant is that happened to me recently
21:41
as well as I did something I hadn't done a long time.
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I walked inside a bank because I think what did I need that cashier's check or something.
21:47
Anyway, I walked inside a bank and literally I'm like looking for the people.
21:53
There's nobody there.
21:55
They've got these two like machines embedded into the wall that are supposed to be completely
22:00
self-service.
22:01
And I'm like, where's the people?
22:03
I just need to quickly get in and out of here, right?
22:05
And the funny thing about it is there's a guy standing at that like a kiosk, whatever,
22:10
and the tellers behind him because he had to come out and help him.
22:13
And all he's doing is expressing his frustration with the process.
22:15
Yeah, that's the worst of everything, right there.
22:22
I'm thinking, I'll clue the heck invented this thing, man.
22:26
I'll touch, can you be?
22:27
Anyway, it just, it's, you know, it happens in the rural world every day.
22:30
All right.
22:31
Yeah.
22:32
So end of control, end of loyalty.
22:33
End of secrets is the third one.
22:35
End of secrets.
22:36
So talk about that briefly.
22:37
Well, you know, I talk about that, you know, we're in this third rebellion.
22:41
I mean, but we've had like this, the series of consumer rebellions for a hundred years.
22:47
And here's one of the things I thought was just so poignant when I was doing research
22:51
for the book.
22:52
The first television remote control was invented in 1950.
22:58
Wow.
22:59
It's like the, the first TV's came out and immediately what people wanted to do was skip
23:05
the ads.
23:06
All right.
23:08
And so, so there's been this continuous rebellion against marketing and advertising that's annoying
23:15
and interruptive and not respectful.
23:18
So we have to listen because the consumers always win.
23:24
And if we can get ahead of that curve and say, okay, we listen to you.
23:28
We know we've got to change because we know you're going to win.
23:31
Then eventually, you know, we'll be, we'll be preferred.
23:35
That technology has really reduced the end of secrets and look, Jeff, I mean, I, I was
23:41
my career.
23:42
I was right in the middle of that, you know, back before the internet, most businesses
23:45
made money on the secrets.
23:47
They made money on stuff that people didn't know.
23:50
That's how we sold loans.
23:51
That's how we sold vacations.
23:53
That's how we sold cars, how we sold insurance.
23:56
It was, you know, the, the fine print or the stuff that people didn't know today, you
24:02
can walk into an insurance agent, you can walk into a car dealership and you can know
24:06
more about their products than they do.
24:08
So the cut, this is a, this is the evolution of how now the, the customers are in control
24:14
because there are no more secrets.
24:19
And so we, we have to give up control, you know, many, many companies still think about
24:25
controlling the marketing message and controlling the sales funnel, controlling the customer
24:31
journey.
24:32
Come on, we're not in control.
24:34
Look at that, you know, that lead generation pipeline that you've got on your PowerPoint
24:39
presentation.
24:40
It doesn't work that way anymore.
24:43
Customer journey is a tangled mess.
24:45
Google came out with research last fall that showed people, even people searching for
24:50
the same thing on the internet got there in unpredictable ways, in hundreds of different
24:57
ways.
24:59
The customer journey is just this tangled mess.
25:02
And back in the days when we did have control with our marketing messaging and our advertising
25:08
because people didn't have a choice, a brand was what we told you today, a brand is what
25:14
we tell each other.
25:15
The customers are in control, right, customer because there are no more secrets.
25:20
Yeah, you know, there's a lot of learning just in here right now that people listening,
25:24
you could pull out some nuggets.
25:25
And I mean, the customer is clearly in control because of access technology, but I don't
25:29
want to also overlook the point about the human connection because I think relevant to
25:34
like my audience and specifically is that people forget that a lot or they don't feel comfortable
25:40
being human.
25:41
Yeah.
25:42
So do you have any, maybe, you know, tips on how people can be more human in their communication?
25:46
Well, I mean, I think there's a couple easy steps that any business can do.
25:52
First thing is look around at your marketing and your customer touch points.
26:00
And if you're doing stuff that people hate, stop it.
26:05
Just stop it.
26:07
You would hate it and don't do it.
26:09
That's a good first step.
26:11
And then you have to think about what do people really love?
26:17
What do they really need?
26:19
What are they crying out for?
26:21
And that might take getting out there and talking to people and listening to people,
26:25
which again is part of the sickness in marketing today.
26:28
We're too reliant on automation and dashboards and, you know, we're, we got our heads stuck
26:33
in dashboards instead of really listening to people.
26:37
So listen to people and think about what they want.
26:40
And one of the things I've proposed in my book is to connect with the constant human truth
26:48
or the constant human needs that don't change.
26:51
Today, I think part of the problem is we're preoccupied with technological change.
26:57
We feel overwhelmed.
26:59
We feel like we're falling behind.
27:01
We're stuck.
27:02
We don't know what to do next.
27:04
That's not what's important.
27:05
What's important is that we have to sell the real people and the real customers.
27:10
And their needs probably aren't changing.
27:13
They want to protect their self-interest, right?
27:16
They want to make smart decisions with their money.
27:19
That's the way it was 50 years ago.
27:21
That's the way it's going to be 50 years from now.
27:23
It's not going to change.
27:26
People want to be acknowledged.
27:29
They want to be validated.
27:32
They want to belong.
27:33
It was that way 50 years ago.
27:35
It's going to be 50, that way 50 years into the future.
27:38
So let's not let the tail wag the dog.
27:41
The focus shouldn't be on the technology.
27:44
The focus should be on these customer needs.
27:46
And then maybe there's technology that can help us serve those needs.
27:50
So those are a few easy steps.
27:53
You don't have to be an extrovert.
27:55
You don't have to be a public speaker.
27:57
You don't have to be shaking people's hands.
27:59
Just look at those things first to have a more human presence.
28:04
And then another simple thing that any business can do.
28:07
And this is especially a problem in the banking industry and the mortgage industry.
28:12
Is look at every customer touch point and just think,
28:15
how could we make that more real?
28:17
How could we make that more human?
28:19
Step one, stop using stock photos.
28:23
You know, here's whenever you use a stock photo, Mr. Lender or Mrs. Mortgage Broker.
28:31
Here's the message that you sent.
28:33
Even we don't care.
28:34
Right.
28:36
Use real people.
28:39
Use real clients, right?
28:41
Use real customers if you have a picture of one of your best customers on your website.
28:47
What is what are those people going to do?
28:49
They're going to send everybody they know to that website.
28:52
That's true.
28:53
Right.
28:54
So I mean, it's just not that hard.
28:56
It's a lot of it is just common sense.
28:58
Yeah, when I took away from your five constant human truths in your book,
29:02
quick summary, people have the need to feel loved to belong.
29:05
You protect self-interest, find meaning and be respected.
29:08
I think that's so true.
29:10
And what I took away from that was, which is what you're alluding to, is architecting,
29:14
you know, your process, your customer experience, so that it hits on all those buttons.
29:19
Think how simple it would have been, Jeff, in the negative case that you provided a few
29:25
minutes ago, to hit those buttons, to hit those buckets, to be acknowledged.
29:31
It just takes some intentionality and some thought.
29:33
Yeah, to be validated, to be respected.
29:38
I mean, it just wouldn't have taken that much, but that's all you really want.
29:43
That's it.
29:44
That's, no, it's so true.
29:45
Yeah, feel loved, feel respected, right, that the eye matter, and that you're not treating
29:50
me like that, that we're ignoring all that.
29:53
You know, it's so funny about this, though, and I think this is kind of your overall point,
29:56
is those types of attributes for desires, I mean, setting the advertising conversation aside,
30:02
but isn't that how the way business was done back in the day, right, face to face,
30:07
kind of, you know, mom and pop shop stuff, right?
30:09
Yeah, I had thought about this for a long time, but I've taught at Rutgers University for
30:15
10 years, and there was a, I used to teach this module on social media, and I used to
30:20
use an example of my grandfather.
30:22
My grandfather was a plumber, is a plumber from 50 years, and I said to really understand
30:28
how the digital world works, you need to understand my grandfather, who never was on social
30:34
media. I mean, he was, he was buried before we ever had the internet, but he understood
30:42
that the only thing that mattered was his reputation, was what people would say about him, because
30:48
his customers were his marketers.
30:50
Yeah.
30:51
And if he did something that was a wrong or a problem, he had to fix it right away, he
30:57
had to acknowledge the problem, he had to get out there, and he had to fix the problem,
31:01
because he had to protect that reputation, because what the customers say about him, is
31:05
the only thing he had going for, he went out of his way to validate people, to create,
31:13
to help them.
31:14
If someone couldn't pay, he would do a plumbing job for a chicken, or for some sticks of wood,
31:19
whatever it took to help these people.
31:22
And he also knew that there's sort of a social aspect to this, that people buy from people
31:30
who they know and they like, and they trust, and it wasn't unusual for my grandfather
31:33
to end a plumbing job, sitting down with his customer and having a shot of whiskey.
31:38
Yeah, right.
31:39
And so those are simple lessons, those are simple human truths that have not changed in
31:45
our hearts, have not changed in our DNA, and this world of technology has created this
31:52
fog, that has walled us into this sense, this false sense of security, that we know what
31:58
we're doing now, and we don't, and we need to remember the lessons of my grandfather.
32:02
Yeah, you have something you say in the book, I'm trying to find the exact quote, but basically
32:07
it's like, it's not the most automated company we'll win, or the perfect sales process,
32:12
to your point.
32:13
Again, I love the tagline, it's the most human company that wins.
32:16
Absolutely, and Jeff, I believe that with all my heart, I really do, that this is the
32:21
big, big message that, if you're the most human company in your industry, people will
32:27
flock to you, and it's not easy, but we have no choice.
32:33
Yeah.
32:34
I mean, advertising, it's not seen like it used to be seen.
32:39
I mean, I watch more TV than I've ever watched, but I never see ads, unless this may be
32:45
a live sports program.
32:47
I watch all my TV on Amazon and Netflix, all of it, you know, Game of Thrones and the
32:54
office and Breaking Bad and all these shows that we love to binge radio, I'm in the car
33:00
all the time with different meetings and stuff.
33:02
I listen to radio all the time, I never hear ads, never.
33:08
I listen to serious XM, I listen to audio books, I listen to Spotify, I never hear ads,
33:18
but I'm listening to a radio, I'm using air quotes there, podcast listening, and same
33:24
with my new stream, right?
33:26
I think on the New York Times, I sometimes see banner ads, but, you know, nobody really
33:31
pays attention to banner ads, they're invisible, they're the worst form ever of advertising
33:36
in the history of the human race, so essentially a new stream, and one third of Americans have
33:41
ad walkers on their smart devices anyway, right?
33:44
So people don't see ads, they don't believe ads, we have no choice, we've got to adjust
33:53
our mindset to this new world and stop trying to hold on to what worked ten years or even
33:59
two years ago, because it doesn't work anymore.
34:02
We have to acknowledge our customers and acknowledge the power that they have.
34:06
All right, let me ask you a question then, because we're talking about loyalty and emotional
34:09
connection and attachments, our lack of loyalty there.
34:13
So a couple of notes here, does personal branding matter then in this context of this discussion?
34:17
Well, I mean, it depends, I would say, usually it does, especially in a personal services
34:24
industry like real estate or mortgage lending, it's just this simple.
34:30
So it's different for this and then a pizza?
34:33
Well, maybe, but I mean, I think you could also establish, I mean, actually there's some
34:38
great case studies out there about restaurants and chefs and local business people who have
34:44
identified great personalities.
34:46
Like Domino's was a great example that way they admitted their pizza sucked.
34:49
Yeah, but I mean, let's say, well, here's an example, here's a precise example and
34:56
I'm going to use a pizza example, you can also think about this in terms of real estate
35:00
and mortgage.
35:01
Okay, so I actually work with a local pizza chain and I went, we went on a Twitter and
35:07
you can save searches on Twitter.
35:09
So I said, let's look in this geographic area, five miles from your store, everybody who's
35:15
talking about pizza.
35:17
So we just did a search for something about I'm hungry or pizza and we were getting 20
35:24
to 25 hits a day, something like, oh, I'm so hungry and I just dropped my pizza face
35:29
down on the floor.
35:30
What would happen if the owner of that pizza shop said, hey, send me a direct message, we're
35:36
going to bring you a new pizza, even though you didn't even buy it from us.
35:41
That's how you become a legend.
35:43
That's emotional connection.
35:45
That's building a personal brand that transcends pizza or ads or social media or SEO, right?
35:55
You're becoming legendary.
35:57
You can do that.
35:58
And I'm not saying that specific technique.
36:00
Sure.
36:01
You will buy off of the people they know.
36:04
If you're known, which is the last book that I wrote is called No, and how to build your
36:08
personal brand, I think that's probably the last time you were like, talk.
36:11
So if you're known and the other people aren't, you get the business, right, there's some
36:18
trust there.
36:19
Right.
36:20
Not to interrupt you, but also cognizant of time because I want to get as much out of you
36:24
as I can.
36:25
So what to be, and by the way, your book known, awesome, man, for those, for me, it's
36:29
like a Bible and kind of crafting my own, like becoming known strategy.
36:33
What do you want to become known for?
36:34
And let's do that in the context of, okay, fine, modern marketing because you taught, you
36:38
mentioned today having an effective social media presence is a life skill.
36:43
I thought that was pretty brilliant.
36:44
So what should we, what should we become known for in our space?
36:47
Well, that's a very personal thing.
36:49
It's a very personal decision.
36:51
It's a very important decision.
36:54
And so really, that's, as you know, and I appreciate your kind words about the book,
36:59
is the first step is to really think about very carefully what you want to be known for.
37:04
And obviously, you could be the most, the kindest servant in the real estate business in
37:12
your area, or the most knowledgeable, or how do you become legendary, really, in your
37:20
little niche.
37:21
And then you have to have sort of a relentless process, a consistent and relentless process
37:28
to create value, to get on people's radar screens, you know, over and over and over again,
37:33
so that you become trusted.
37:35
There's that emotional connection and you become known.
37:39
But I mean, I've got lots of exercises in the book to help people think through that.
37:44
Probably, it's probably the most important step in the book.
37:48
Yeah, I've got some notes from that, actually.
37:50
So for people who want more, you've got to go by the book.
37:52
We'll put links in the show notes, obviously, to all this kind of stuff.
37:54
But I think like in the context of our listeners, right, that is critical, like you said,
37:58
because then a personal services space, what else do they have to go on?
38:01
Because they're not going to, what you say here is, can you become loyal to a company?
38:05
And I don't know if it was you who used the example of Elon Musk versus Ford?
38:10
I, well, I, I did, you know, you think about Tesla, the higher market value than Ford.
38:16
Yeah.
38:17
Who's been around for 10 years?
38:19
How is that possible?
38:21
And I think a lot of that value is built into people have this love and this, and this trust
38:27
in this visionary entrepreneur and they want to be part of that.
38:32
Who do you love at Ford?
38:34
Who do you love?
38:35
Yes.
38:36
Who do you love at Chevy?
38:37
Yeah.
38:38
No.
38:39
Now, who do you love in the real estate market in your city?
38:43
Not a billboard.
38:45
Who do you love and is it possible to become that person?
38:49
Yes.
38:50
Of course it is.
38:51
It happens all the time.
38:52
Plenty of examples of that.
38:54
And that's really the idea to break through, not through Facebook ads, not through billboards,
39:00
not through direct mail, but on it.
39:01
But where is the emotion?
39:04
You cannot build a motion to direct mail.
39:08
Remember the lesson of McKinsey.
39:10
The reason people aren't loyal is because a motion isn't there.
39:13
A motion is lacking.
39:15
So you've got to roll up your sleeves and find a way to connect on a human way that builds
39:19
that emotion.
39:20
Are we then proposing that aside from being face-to-face in person, because there's lots
39:24
of tactics, right?
39:25
To be active in your community and things like that, that to your point earlier, having
39:30
an effective social media presence as a life skill, is that like one of the primary channels
39:34
through which we can create that?
39:35
It can be especially if your customers are very active there.
39:39
Just think about what you're doing, Jeff.
39:42
You've been creating this podcast, and we've got this video series now, for a long time,
39:49
and tenacious.
39:50
You've been resilient.
39:51
You've been consistent.
39:52
You're delivering great value, and you're fighting hard to bring the best guests onto
39:55
your show.
39:56
But you're also showing your face, and people hear your voice, and they hear your intelligence.
40:02
That is going to pay off because you're becoming known.
40:06
And people are going to create an emotional connection to you that others aren't going
40:11
to have.
40:12
It does take time.
40:13
It does hard work, create hard work.
40:15
You couldn't create five podcasts and expect to make a difference in this world.
40:20
But you've been doing this for years, and it's going to tip.
40:24
It's going to pay off.
40:25
So you're a great role model in this space, and a great example.
40:29
I appreciate that.
40:30
Thank you.
40:31
It's a labor of love, as you know, like writing a book, and you know, it's just like
40:35
you write a book because you see a problem, and you want to help solve that problem.
40:38
I started a podcast because I saw the problem, and people needed help, you know?
40:41
Right.
40:42
One of the things you find in this book was that you were surprised at the importance
40:46
of face-to-face meetings.
40:47
Well, I guess that's sort of embarrassing to it.
40:51
It still works.
40:52
It's real.
40:53
It was, but it was sort of just kind of hit me in the face.
40:57
Maybe it was just a reminder that, you know, as I interviewed these companies who are
41:04
really doing it in a new way, it was important for me to present a lot of case studies in
41:10
the book to inspire people, to say, wow, look at how this small business or do is doing
41:16
it, or look at how this big business is, is how they're making the transition.
41:21
And as I was interviewing a lot of the leaders from these inspirational companies, I kept
41:27
hearing this theme.
41:28
They said, when we brought people together, everything changed.
41:33
Because what's more human than that, it's the difference between listening to a song
41:39
on the radio.
41:40
Maybe you'll be aware of that, maybe you'll like it, and seeing that band live in concert
41:46
with your friends.
41:47
Now, it's an experience you never forget.
41:50
There's an emotional bond there with that band that will never go away.
41:55
And I remember, I used to have my own conference.
41:57
I had my own event, and I can remember this amazing experience.
42:02
The first day of the first event I ever had, someone was checking in, and I said, I didn't
42:09
know the person, and I said, well, where are you from?
42:13
He said, Pittsburgh.
42:14
I mean, that was a Knoxville, Tennessee.
42:17
I said, oh, what brought you to Tennessee?
42:21
He said, you, and it's like, whoa, whoa, it was just an amazing feeling and for me,
42:32
that really helped propel my brand.
42:34
I stopped having the event a few years ago, and now I'm sort of interested in doing
42:38
something again.
42:39
Yeah.
42:40
But nothing replaces that emotional bond of actually seeing a person and hearing their
42:45
voice and seeing their smile.
42:47
Well, and you talk about that in the book as well, as a matter of fact, you have, I
42:50
think, a kind of a fun recollection of like that.
42:52
The original marketing book was, was it the three P's or four P's, right, product,
42:56
price, placement, Dr. Kotler's book?
42:58
Yeah, and promotion.
42:59
And promotion, which I think I remember taking that class as well at a marketing
43:03
class.
43:04
But, you know, what you're, what you're pointing out there is that, again, to, to not
43:07
to like get this, this horse dead, but I don't think we can overlook it because the
43:11
influence of technology, the outsourced and automate everything is, is that high touch,
43:15
high tech, right?
43:16
Or the combination thereof, I should say, the world is, we want the blend of both.
43:21
And people are missing satisfaction of real relationships, but really matters.
43:25
It was really one of the most amazing experiences I had writing the book.
43:29
It was almost like divine intervention.
43:31
It was like, like, you know, do do's like this, you know, this rainbow came out where
43:36
I was just thinking about Dr. Kotler's writing, and I, you know, I took this class more
43:42
than 30 years ago, and he's saying marketing is psychology, and sociology, and anthropology
43:48
is all things human.
43:49
Well, Doug Gunnett, he's still alive.
43:52
And as I was writing this chapter, I heard him on a podcast, and here's what he said,
44:00
and I used this quote in the book.
44:02
He said, what's missing today in marketing is emotion and this human connection.
44:08
Brands and businesses don't have a human voice.
44:12
People want to hear something that's real, something that's authentic, and even vulnerable.
44:20
What a powerful word.
44:22
It just, it took my breath away to hear this great man who really had influence on me more
44:28
than 30 years ago.
44:29
Here he is today.
44:30
He's still teaching us.
44:32
He's still putting, trying to get us on the right path.
44:36
Marketing is all things human.
44:37
We were off the path.
44:40
Marketing is sick right now, and we need to get back on the path.
44:42
And remember that marketing is all things human, and what would that even mean to be authentic
44:53
and to be vulnerable?
44:56
What kind of power would be that?
44:58
How many businesses can you name that are vulnerable today?
45:00
Not that many, but those are probably the ones you're going to remember.
45:03
Yeah, transparency reminds me of that.
45:05
I forget where I heard it, but principles don't change tactics do.
45:09
So we can leverage to you, which is what we opened up with, I think, as we can leverage
45:12
technology to, if used in the right way, you can create more human.
45:17
Like this, for instance, right here, a video.
45:19
I mean, would you consider this a face-to-face meeting?
45:22
Yeah, this is a perfect example of how you're using technology to lower barriers between
45:28
you and your fans and your customers, because here I am.
45:33
This is me, and I'm going to give it all my all, and you're, you know, and so you're
45:38
creating that human connection, and believe me, I've experienced this firsthand.
45:43
There are people out there you've never met, and you've never heard of who are listening
45:46
to your show, and they're watching your show, and they're building a connection to you,
45:51
and they're building trust with you, and you don't even know they're there.
45:54
A couple of years from now, they're going to say, hey, Jeff, I've been listening to your
45:57
show for a couple of years now, and I just want to let you know that, you know, here I am,
46:01
one of your fans.
46:02
Absolutely.
46:03
Let's do some business together.
46:05
Yeah.
46:06
In town, they're like, hey, can you get together and all that, so that's, it's, it's awesome.
46:09
So I want to kind of close out with this, maybe put the cherry on.
46:12
First of all, you've got to get the book everybody.
46:13
I mean, if you're looking for kind of an encyclopedia, not only that, but also I think a tearing
46:18
open of the, you know, right here, I'm picturing this and tearing open the chest, the heart
46:22
of like, look, like you said, what is marketing really, right?
46:25
It's all those elements from Dr. Cartler, and this is, this is a great exercise in that.
46:29
What jumped out for me in a unique way was you featured this conversation with Jeff
46:33
Bezos in there.
46:34
Yes.
46:35
And I was blown away by, do you want to go ahead and take that and kind of talk through
46:39
that?
46:40
Well, it was sort of the, the, the inspiration for the whole book to be honest with you,
46:46
because what Bezos said was he was answering a question.
46:49
Someone asked him, what's the new thing that you're excited about?
46:51
He said, well, that's a good question.
46:53
But the more important question is, what's the thing that's not changing?
46:57
What's the old thing that's not changing?
46:59
And he said, people want a low price, fast delivery and bass selection.
47:04
It would be impossible for me to think that in 10 years, someone would say, I love Amazon
47:09
Jeff, but I want to pay higher prices.
47:11
So this is the model is putting the human first and then, and then taking the technology
47:18
to serve that human, to make the prices even lower, to make the selection even better,
47:25
to make discovery even easier, to make the delivery even faster.
47:29
He's got those constant human needs right in the middle of his business.
47:34
And that's what we all should be doing.
47:36
And when I, what I extrapolated from that specific to, to my industry is, that's relevant
47:41
to things, it's, it's, it's process.
47:42
It's customer experience.
47:43
You use the phrase earlier, remove the friction and, and we've talked about elements and
47:47
examples of friction and, and looking at where's it broken and how can you create that
47:51
ideal experience that's human, but also efficient at the same time.
47:56
Yes, exactly.
47:58
I mean, today, all those things, Jeff, ease of doing business, quality of product.
48:04
If you're in retail, it's, you know, what's your return policy, that's, those are
48:09
given today, right?
48:11
I mean, saying, thinking that we have great service as a point of differentiation is
48:16
not a point of differentiation.
48:18
Everybody has a high level of service today.
48:20
Those are table stakes, that's a survival skill, you know, you need to go up above and
48:25
beyond that, to stand out in the world today.
48:27
And that's where it gets down to working on these constant human truths.
48:32
Yeah.
48:33
And a couple of points about that, this is from your book as well, as you asked some relevant
48:37
questions there.
48:38
It's like, how can you invent a customer meeting, right?
48:40
A service call, a sales presentation, et cetera.
48:43
Think about architecting that entire customer engagement from point one before, during and
48:47
after.
48:48
Yeah.
48:49
Absolutely.
48:50
Just to think about, how can we be more human?
48:53
How can we, how can we create a peak moment in that experience that people will remember?
48:59
And let me just give you a quick example of that.
49:01
And it's, it seems sort of mundane, but I've got a friend who has an agency in Atlanta.
49:07
And, and, and this point in my book had a, had a big impact on him.
49:12
And he has people from all over the country come to visit him in Atlanta.
49:16
And when the meeting is over and it's time for the customer to go to the airport, he has
49:21
a limo waiting with snacks and drinks in the back to take them to the airport.
49:26
And that's the last thing they remember about that visit.
49:30
That's something they're going to talk about.
49:32
That's a peak moment that gives us lasting emotional connection to that agency.
49:37
So I mean, it doesn't have to be the most creative thing or the most bold thing or the wackiest
49:44
thing.
49:45
It just has to be something that's connected to the needs of your customers.
49:48
Absolutely.
49:49
It doesn't have to be a lab or expensive.
49:51
It's just that little human touch, little connection.
49:53
Awesome.
49:54
Well, listen, I know you're busy.
49:55
And I appreciate you so much for being here.
49:57
It's wonderful to connect with you again.
49:59
I'm just thrilled that I've had that opportunity for us to cross paths and you are making a positive
50:06
impact in my life.
50:07
And I think the ripple effect from those listeners to this podcast, it's only going to continue
50:11
to grow.
50:12
So I appreciate you.
50:13
Thank you so much, chef.
50:14
And thanks for the great interview.
50:15
And being so well prepared today was a real, a real delight to be here with you.
50:19
I mean, we'll put links on the show notes, but any particular, I know you have a podcast.
50:23
It's called Grow, right?
50:24
And it's like one of the top 1% of podcasts in the world.
50:28
Yeah.
50:29
You can find everything on my website is businessesgrow.com.
50:35
And I've got a blog there.
50:36
I've got a podcast.
50:37
I've got my books are there and lots of free resources for businesses of every size.
50:43
Yeah.
50:44
And like I said, we'll put all that in the show notes.
50:45
So again, Mark Schaefer, thank you so much for being here.
50:48
Thank you, listeners.
50:49
As always, we appreciate you for tuning in.
50:51
If you like this episode, you know what to do, leave us a little love out on the webs,
50:54
a little review, and we'll see you on the next one.
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