Latest / Your Extraordinary Life & Dating After Divorce / 210. Shame and the Impact on Relationships with Karen C. L. Anderson

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210. Shame and the Impact on Relationships with Karen C. L. Anderson · Your Extraordinary Life & Dating After Divorce

• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Hello everyone, welcome back to the Dating After Divorce podcast.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, shadi Curry.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I have a special guest back with us here on the podcast.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I have Karen Seale Anderson.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: For those of you who have been longtime listeners, you will remember her episode her Dating After Divorce episode like way back.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I think it's like the fifth or sixth guest episode on the podcast.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: But Karen, for those of you who don't know her is a master certified life coach.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: She is the author of several books, including you Are Not your Mother really seen generational trauma and shame, and I have for those of you watching on YouTube or my video, I'm holding up a copy of her book on my Kindle.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Karen works mostly with adult daughters who want to take care of themselves in the relationship they have with their mothers, and she has a special place in her practice for mothers who want to do the brave work of unshaming so they can repair the relationship they have with their adult daughters.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Karen, welcome back to the podcast.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: It's always a thrill to be with you.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we love hanging out.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know that anyone knows this, but Karen was my life coach for a minute when I was doing a lot of my unshaming work and we worked together for a while and it was just some of the best work I've ever done.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: And just to kind of introduce this episode to the listeners, I want to let you know that we're not really delving deep into dating, but the reason I reached out to Karen and asked her to come back on is because when I am working one on one with clients, when I'm talking to women going through divorce, abusive relationships, dating again, shame comes up all the time.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: It just continues to come up.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: It is the root cause of a lot of the problems that I help my clients solve, and I think shame keeps us from fully healing and thriving, like if you have that deposit, so to speak, from childhood, or if you developed it or acquired it like along the way.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: It really does touch every part of our lives, and so I want to just encourage you guys to listen to this one all the way through and just if you don't resonate with any of it, then yes, I'm celebrating with you.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Good for you.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: You don't have this, but I encourage you to at least give it a listen and if you do recognize yourself in anything we talk about, just understand that you might have some shame work to do, and that's okay.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: That's okay.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: So, karen, I'm just going to jump right in into the book.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: How did you come to write this?
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Like what inspired this particular book?
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Shame.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Shame has been something that I've been consciously aware of for a pretty long time and then sort of like subconsciously aware of prior to that, and you know, and then you know, I don't know how many, ever many years ago it was like 2009, 10 ish.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: You know, brené Brown came on the scene and started talking about shame and I was like, oh God, yes, like, and you know, I started to recognize just how much shame was running my life and like I use the analogy in the book of like it's like a pair of glasses that you put on and you don't realize that you're wearing them, and so everything that you do and everything that you see and everything that you experience comes through that lens of shame, which, the way I define it is, shame is an incredibly powerful I'm sorry, incredibly.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Incredibly, it is powerful, but not in a good way Painful experience.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: It's like goes beyond it just being an emotion right that can throw you into a survival response and you don't even realize it.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the other thing that I want to say about shame because it is such a loaded topic and people even just the word itself can be kind of like I don't know why would I want to listen to something about like that is that, for women especially, we were socialized and conditioned to have it so like shame exists and exists for a reason and it and it.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: You know some people will be like, okay, well, but isn't that how we like moderate our behavior and make sure that we don't do bad things or whatever?
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, and way, way, way back.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: That was for sure, needed for the species survival, for humans to survive, but it's kind of like an appendix.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: We don't need it anymore.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and, but women in particular are 80% more likely to shame themselves because we were taught to do that, and I think it's really important to to like to call that out that it is not something that's like oh, I'm experiencing this.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: That must mean there's something wrong with me.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: We were taught to believe that, and so then, and it became, and it became, then it becomes part of us.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: It's like those glasses.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: I like to use the analogy of glasses because, even though it, when we're experiencing it, feels so real and so painful and so debilitating, right, it isn't ours and we can remove the glasses.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love that I love that Versus believing that.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, this is just part of who I am.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think before I started working, healing, growing after my divorce, I just thought shame.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: What I'd now recognize as shame was just I didn't consciously think there was something wrong with me, but I just thought that was the way life was.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Like you said, it's just the glasses, they were just on.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: And so I remember like I would like I remember this particular situation.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: I was thinking back.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: I was married, I had kids and I don't remember what had happened the day before.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Either I was out or my ex now ex-husband said something.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: I forget the situation, but I remember walking over to the refrigerator and just like replaying whatever it was and just like, why would you do that and what's wrong with you?
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: And I just remember those phrases, just going on and on.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: And I was so numb in that experience that I didn't even feel shame as anything outside of myself or something that was happening.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: It was just the way I felt.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about, like shame versus shame light, shame light Right next to me, what I'm asking?
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Because, reading your book, you start out with all of these scenarios and I'm just like feeling it, like I am in it with you, because in my childhood and my younger years, I had similar experiences that were just so painful, and I wonder if sometimes, when we're talking about shame in the larger conversation, we're not all talking about the same level of shame.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean there's also like the distinction between shame and guilt right Again, like this we can thank Brené Brown for this.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: Shame is there's something inherently wrong with me, I'm bad, I'm like fatally flawed.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: There's no coming back from how bad I am, like that's what shame is, whereas guilt is I've done something wrong, that is like not in line with my values, and it still can feel bad, but we're not.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: We can come back from that.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: We can say, oh, we can apologize, we can make amends or whatever it is when we've done something that is out of alignment with our values.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: But again, we also have to learn if we haven't what our values are and realize that we do get to decide.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: You know, right, like this is my value and I've acted out of alignment with my value.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: If I've done something that you don't particularly like, that doesn't mean I'm guilty.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and that's the messaging that you were talking about.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Is that the messaging that we get?
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Is you spilled your milk or you know you didn't.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: One of your examples was you didn't want to eat lima beans as a little child and the messaging that came at you was this is the worst thing that you could ever.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: You know just not in those words, but the actions in that moment messaged so much shame.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: And I think the thing that it's important to just sort of call out and name is that obviously, generationally right, the way parenting has evolved over time has changed.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Shame and fear were basically considered like good parenting tools at one point.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that I think is important to call out is when we are children and babies right, even pre-verbal Something can happen in our world and in that moment it is an adaptation for a child, depending on what's happening.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Right For the child to make, whatever it is that's happening and if it's especially bad, their fault, like it must be, because I'm bad that this bad thing is happening and that's like I don't know why.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Maybe that is that part of that sort of like original wiring that we still have, that we do that and the problem comes when a parent doesn't know how to help the child process that incredibly painful feeling and redirect and say no, this isn't because of you, because what?
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: And the reason that a child does that is because it's safer for them to think that they're the problem rather than mom or dad or whoever the caretaker is.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Is the problem right, survival instinct.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: It is like a biological adaptation that happens in that moment.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's biological, but it's an adaptation that happens in our systems.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is that.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Because if the child registers the parent has been the problem, then the child has to then figure out, well, where am I gonna get food?
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Who's gonna take care of me?
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: And so to prevent, it's like to cut off short circuit because you're not in the wild by yourself.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: It's like no, my parents are fine.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if a parent can't recognize when a child is going through intense emotion, it doesn't have to be shame, but anger, fear, grief, any of the feelings that all of us feel, and a child is left alone with that to process that, or if there's been abuse, right, I think it's also important to sort of give a definition of what abuse is, if you wanna go into that.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: But if that repair doesn't happen, if the parent isn't emotionally mature enough to be with the child and help the child process that, and then that's when the shame gets internalized.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it's like that message just keeps building on itself and that's when we end up, like me, believing that I mean my core, core sort of shame-based belief going all the way back as long as I can remember is I'm bad, yeah.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: How did you wake up to?
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Because I'm going back to myself 10 years ago where didn't understand shame, didn't think I was in shame, steeped in it, but I didn't think in those terms, like, if you are not inside at a coffee shop and you wanted to say, hey, shade, you know, you're like very, very shame, shame-based, right, I didn't even say that, oh yeah, yeah.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: But if you wanted to, like, wake me up to the fact that this was running my life, like how would one recognize that?
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: So that's a great question, because in coaching, especially in the method that you and I were trained in, right, one of the main questions is like what are your thoughts?
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: What are you thinking?
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: What are you thinking about yourself?
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: What are you thinking about this situation?
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: What are you making it mean?
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Right, and generally we have like a surface level thing, like like in the case of, like a divorce or whatever right we make our husband you know soon to be ex-husbands right, behavior mean, like that you know he doesn't love me.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Right, like that's the surface, he doesn't like love me.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Well, what's underneath that Right, and it might be, you know, it could be anything, but the more you drill down, what we drill down to is and that basically, he's divorcing me, he's divorcing me because I'm bad.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, so in my case it would have been he's acting out.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: He's this person.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: My shame was I chose the wrong person.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, I was this pristine princess and I made this mistake and it's so horrible I am.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: There's something wrong with me that I made this mistake Exactly.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: That is.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: It's so funny that you call that out like that way, because the I love the distinction and again, we tend not to think of it this way that you had a struggle.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Right, you were facing a challenge and you made it mean that there was something wrong with you.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: That actually having a challenge means there's something wrong with you.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Like I wouldn't be having this problem or this challenge or this struggle if I was okay.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Or you know, yes, if I, if I had figured it out, if I had done it right, if I you know yeah.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: And so like that idea of regret like, oh, I made a, made a bad choice, right?
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: People without shame are like, okay, and that's hard to deal with, but I'm dealing with it and I'll move on, and you know.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And then there's the rest of us who go I'm like flawed to my core, 100%.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: I mean I made it mean so many things in so many areas.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: I was a bad mother, chose the wrong parent for my kids.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I was going to be kicked out of the tribe, which I mean, I kind of was kicked out of some tribes but the thought of not being accepted in certain circles because I didn't have the perfect Marriage anymore which perfecting quotes for those three that are listening was just that, the feeling, it was just like curdling inside inside of me.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but that, like you know, you asked you know how do we know that we might be experiencing shame?
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: It's like paying attention, it's being willing to drill down underneath what is the surface thoughts that we have, Right, and to say what am I making this mean about me?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: And then you know, and if you can drill down, and okay, and if that's true, then what.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And if it's true that I'm going to get kicked out of the tribe, then what?
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah right.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, did those thoughts show up for you when you were dating your husband?
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: And for those who are new to Karen's work, karen is divorced long time ago, happily remarried now for the first time, so you know.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: When you were dating what were those surface thoughts and what was underneath that.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Gosh, it is such a great question.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: And I I know that back then it was, it was very semi conscious, Like I wasn't aware fully like the way I am now.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: So my three main shame based beliefs about myself are I'm bad, I'm selfish, like a selfish boiled brat specifically, and and I'm a pathetic loser, and I know that all three of those thoughts were worth it.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I know that all three of those thoughts were running my show.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Now, you know, it's not like, if you followed me, if you like saw a movie of my life that I'd be walking around with a dark cloud over my head, like you know, all the time.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: No, but I know that that was influencing my choices.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Things that I was doing and that's a big part of why I married my first husband right in the first place was because of all of that, like, I didn't think I deserved any better than that.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And, for those who don't know, I married a guy so he could get a guy from Brazil, so he could get a green card, and I knew that that's what was going on and it wasn't like a transactional thing.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: I thought he was in love with me, but so by the time I was dating Tim, my current husband, I can, it's hard to like.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: I think the thing that was underneath there was desperation for sure that, like you know, is this guy serious?
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Is he going to love me?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Is he, you know, am I wasting my time?
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: That was sort of surface things, and the desperation underneath was, you know, I don't deserve this, I don't deserve this and I will be alone and I will.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: I can't take care of myself and I will.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean it sounds so cliche now to like think about, like the old maid or whatever.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I'm old enough to like remember that.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: That's like that's what we were like threatened with, or you know, that was like the fate worse than death was to be an old maid.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I don't ever think I'm going to mess this up or he's going to find out who I really am and leave me.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that happened actually later, after we got married, because I know for sure that I was sabotaging the marriage from the get-go and I caught on to that pretty quickly.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: But yes, I used to think he was going to leave me.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I ever thought he's going to figure out the real me.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that was the thought I wish I had a better answer of like oh, here were my thoughts, but I don't really remember what they were specifically, except they were there, yeah, yeah.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: And I remember the thought I'm going to mess this up.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: At the time I met Kent, my husband.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Now I think I had resolved that through my other dating experiences, but I remember having that thought I'm going to mess this up at some point, because generally I mess things up.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Or I remember I think I also I had the thought I didn't have the thought this person's going to leave me necessarily.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: But, like you said, that feeling of like oh, gotta hold on to this person because I might not get anything better, also showed up for me when I was, when I was dating.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: So now you've gone on this journey just in your own life, having written about shame when it comes to mothers and daughters, and you know, does shame still impact you today?
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Is this a thing that we get carried?
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: of.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Do we?
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Is that a bottle?
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Is that a pill?
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: No, I know.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: It's like the thing that the way I like to say it is I've changed my relationship to it and I've learned, I have, I've developed tools that help me catch myself with grace, if that makes sense, or hopefully, with grace I am able.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I think one of the most thrilling things that I'm able to do now is, you know, especially in relationships that are important to us, like my relationship with my husband, I mean, I tell the story about the rice cooker.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you've heard the story, I don't know if I've, you know like where I've told it, but like a couple of years ago I bought this rice cooker and you know you basically plug it in, put the rice in, put the water in and like click the thing and it cooks right and when it's done, it like clicks off into like a warm mode.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: So I had noticed that when I was making rice that you know it would, the water would like boil off quickly and it would like you know it would be, it would like burn and not click off onto warm, and I was like, oh so I decided, all right, I'm going to put more water in, right?
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: So one night I'm making rice and I told him that I had.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: You know I told him what had happened and you know I said I put more water in it and when, what happened was is when it clicked off for warm, I opened it up and it was still full of water and I'm like, oh, so I'm telling him this.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: And I told him.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: I said you know, it's like I shut it back and I put it back on cook and hopefully it's not overcooked.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I know I'm drawing out the story, but the punchline is he says well, when you opened it and you saw the water, why don't you just drain it and like, in an instant, right.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: My shame based voice said because you're stupid.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Right Now, my husband is not the kind of person who ever makes me feel stupid.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: It's like the opposite.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Right, so, like, but it's like.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: That's what triggers are right, like they're.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: They don't make any sense.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: They can happen even with safe people, right and.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: But it was like the tone of voice, it was just the situation and inside of me was I'm stupid, and because I feel safe with my husband, my nervous system feels safe with my husband, I got angry.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Anger is okay, right, like when it's with our moms, maybe it's not okay.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: So we shut down and freeze, but in this case, I'm like I started to like exploded him and be like, no, you're stupid or I don't know, something like that.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Right, but before the words were even out of my mouth, I was like, oh, this is shame.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: And I was like, and it was.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I actually was like laughing and happy because look at what I just did.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: I caught myself in this moment and it was so powerful and so life affirming.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: And so, yes, I still experience shame.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: I don't always catch myself like that, but that's a really good example, yeah.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: So of course, like, the triggers are there for shame, right, we all have them.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: The key is getting to know what they are Right, and it's important to drill down to those basic thoughts.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: So, because, even like it's, you know, I mean, it's taken me a long time Pathetic loser is a really hard one for me and it can sneak in there, but the more I'm aware of it, the more I speak it, which people are like well, why would you want to say that?
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: It's because I need to know.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I need to know when that's triggered.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Right, so that I can then be compassionate with myself.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes do you think that sometimes working with shame is a little bit of a catch 22 where, in order to, you know, untangle it and catch it, like you're describing, we have to be aware of it.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: So we have to create awareness.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, triggers what brings it up, but then looking at it, going there is, can be so painful.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: It makes it hard to start that work, because when shame comes up again, we want to go into that the minute you're looking.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: There's something I do with some of my clients who, when we realize that this is a part of their work, okay, what are the top 10 memories that haunt you the most?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the ones that are always coming back tend to have shame behind them and many times when they talk to me about it, these are things they've never shared with anyone.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and so we start to dissolve there, but I know it's because they're so painful.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: The minute they come up, you're like boom, cut it off, think about something else, you know, watch a movie, get a drink.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: How do you open the door to working with shame?
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: You have to learn how to be safe with yourself, right, and it's like well, what does that mean?
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Right, it's like it's also understanding your nervous system.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: It's understanding your triggers.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: It's as a coach that you and I both know and have worked with Carl Lowenthal.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Right, how human of me.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Of course I feel this way.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, of course this is painful.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: So it's like it's like it's like you have these two selves, right, like I'm also a huge fan of internal family systems therapy, which is we have all these different parts, right.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: So it's like, oh, can I cultivate a part that is observing compassionately and is able to, like you know, I'm putting my hand over my heart, right, like, yes, of course this is painful and that's how you create.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Safety is by you know.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, now I'm over here feeling this pain, and then now I'm over here saying, oh, yeah, that's of course it's hard.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: You're a human, yeah.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: You know, yes, now that's so powerful.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I love Pia Melody's work.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: She wrote Facing Cody Pendants and she talked about, like, the characteristics of a child.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: A child is precious vulnerable pendant and I like this is everybody, this is all humans.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, I keep this picture of myself here, and for a reason.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Karen's holding up a picture of herself as a toddler yeah, like I'm probably, I don't know, maybe two, oh yeah.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: She's so cute and it's remind I try to remind myself that I am just as precious at 47 now as I was when I was a six day old baby.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm trying to treat myself, at least move towards treating myself as tenderly.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm a long way off from being as tender with myself now as I would be if you handed me a newborn.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: But I think that's kind of where we're going.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: That's what creates that space to untangle, untangle these things.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean anything that helps you connect in with an innocent part of yourself or a you know.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Again, like they're like well, what brings you joy and it might you know.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: It's more a matter of you know, instead of like developing a hobby, right, it's more like what captures your attention in any given moment and then allowing yourself to follow that.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: And I had a really I mean, before we started recording, I mentioned that 2023 was a really tough year for me and towards the end of it was October, it was September, and I hadn't really been active much.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I just I don't know, I just everything.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I think I spent a lot of 2023 in sort of like a freeze not super bad, but just like I was just mm.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Was that because you had just released the book Was?
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: that the book?
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was that, but there was a bunch of things.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: There was a bunch of things, Anyway.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: So one day I went for a walk and we have a boardwalk I live near the water in Connecticut and I put my headphones on and I just like I don't even I hit some playlist like fun music or something like that.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: And I'm walking along and the song by Queen Fat Bottom Girls came on and I just lit up inside and I was like singing it out loud Fat Bottom Girls, you make the rockin' world go round right and like people are walking on the floor.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: And in that moment, that was a moment where something really lit me up.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: It captured my attention.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: And so since then not every single day, but like I've cultivated a playlist.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I love how it feels to be playing a song that makes me want to like sing out loud, and sometimes I do.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I don't care if people can hear me.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I like walk with like a certain like dance in my step.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: I'm not dancing, but, like you can tell, and I that has been one of the greatest things for me, it's like helped pull me out, so it's like, but I had to be aware in the first place I had to be paying attention to like, oh my God, this lit me up, this was amazing, this was so much fun and it's a simple little thing.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, amazing.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I read somewhere and I know I forget where and who, but I know there's an article out there about triggers and glimmers yes, glimmers.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: We're taught to look for all the triggers and watch out for them, but then we also get these glimmers, yes, joy, a vibrancy of a liveness, and we should pay equal, maybe even more attention to those.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: And it's funny because one of the other songs that came up that day is Isn't she Beautiful?
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: By CB Wonder, or isn't she wonderful?
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful and wonderful.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: I can't remember which one it is.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: And I mean, do you know what that song's about?
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think so.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: I don't think.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: That song is about.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: You know, he's singing it to his baby daughter who was just born and it's sort of like I mean I guess he's not talking to his wife in the song, but he's like bringing his wife into the song, like look what we've created.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: And you know, going back to my book, right, which starts off when I'm a baby, and you know whoo Like that song, like it hits me, it's like sad but good, it's like I sing that song for myself.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I listened to Stevie Wonder sing that song to my child self.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my God, I love that, I love that.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: That's so powerful and really, and that is the work.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: It is the work, you know, whether we're doing it on our own or we're doing it with a coach who mirrors that back, who reflects that back to us.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: That is the work.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: It's really saying hey, you're okay, you have value, you are valuable, you are precious, you are worthy Just because you're here.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and when your brain inevitably offers you the thought that you're a pathetic loser or that you're bad or whatever your flavor of, it is right, you're stupid, you make bad decisions, like all of that stuff, right.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: When your brain inevitably offers that sometimes you won't catch it right away, you know, and that's like, and that's like, that's the part that really sucks, frankly.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: But then it's like oh, of course, of course, that's there, like it's like.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: This is my brain is a computer and it's been programmed to think this.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: It's not my fault that it thinks this.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: I was taught to think this.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: I was taught to do this to myself, and we could get into the implications of the bigger picture of that.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: but yeah, all right actually, and I did wanna go there just a little bit because and I don't know if you have a religious background, but when I think about all of the sources, potential sources, that programming some people have more than others, like in your case, you had an apparent who was a source of that messaging, on top of being in a society that just has the messaging coming at us.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: And I explained this to my clients.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I'm like, listen, okay, so first of all, we've got this world, because I don't know that there are too many corners where there isn't that messaging to women on the planet.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Maybe there are a few pockets, but I mean, I grew up in Nigeria and that message was loud and strong.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: And here in the US, I'm like, oh well, here we are, same, same.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: So if you're born and socialized as a woman, then you get that message just because you're born as a woman in this century or whatever.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Then if you have caregivers or you're in a family system that has strong shame-based messaging, then you've got that layer on top of it.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: If you are in a religion or spiritual practice that uses shame, then you might have that layer, yes, and then it just goes on.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: It's almost like it's like ACEs the adverse childhood experiences.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: We need one for shame.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Well, and that's the insidious nature of it is that then we don't realize that it was given to us, we just think it's us.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, and it's funny I use the analogy you know those things where they're like it's called a finger trap, and you put your fingers.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: It's like a joke thing, it's like a you know, and you put your fingers.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: In the end it's like woven together with I don't know what.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, and then you can't pull your fingers out, right, and so, like what I said earlier, right, is that like you have a struggle or a challenge and your fingers are in the trap, right?
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: And instead of saying, oh, I have a challenge, let me figure it out right, we go oh, I have a challenge and a problem, there must be something wrong with me.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: And then, like, then, like all you know, reasoning and executive brain shuts down and you pull and you're stuck even more.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I, you know, like it's maybe sounds like a conspiracy or whatever, but like it's by design to keep us.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and it's by design over the years.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: But even in the moment and I've noticed this, like just in relationships and working out my own relationships, almost and I don't know if you know, men or people socialize as men are socialized to use that design, Because I also know that I've observed people who are, with no malicious intent, capitalizing on that shame based socialization.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's so, and I'm like what is happening, Like are we in a matrix?
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: We're like the water we're swimming in.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, and so finally going oh, we're in water.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I consciously try to tell my kids like so I'll give you an example of how what I like my kids are.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: You could say Gen Z.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: So they're junior and senior in college and you know there's all of this messaging about how lazy they are and how things are.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: They don't do things, etc.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Etc.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: And I had a conversation with them over the holiday.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: I said, listen, and I know you guys are imperfect, I know you know you slack off things here.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: You're normal.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: You're normal 20 something year olds.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Just understand that the world is 10 times more complex for you than it was for me at your age.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so if you're struggling, it's not you.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: And I say these to these particular kids because I know this does this my reasonable kids.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: There's some other kids that need like a little bit of like hey, you really need to get, you need to fix this part.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: This is you Before you know kids that are trying to make it's not you.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: The world is so much more complex.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Things are way more expensive.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Things actually are harder.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not doing anything wrong, because I also I've become aware that they are getting messaging Mm.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Hmm, that as young adults, they're doing something wrong, Exactly, and that's been projected on them from employers just everyone else like no, it's way more complex.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: If you're having a hard time with your time management, listen, you have way more things to do than I ever did at that age and so it, just like you said, it's by design.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: So we have these systems that are using that messaging.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: But also if the person and I don't know if it's that people pick up that you're shame based and they're like, oh, she might blame herself, I'm just going to imply that she's the problem.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, like to go to a very simplistic example, like with the narcissists, right, with narcissists, like it seems as if they, that's like they have a radar for it.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, the dating scene is full of that, where you know women are out there and then the men are implying that oh yeah, you're single because of this, or.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I remember dating this one guy and I think we went on one in person date but we talked back and forth for a while and I wouldn't let him hug me on the first date.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I was just like I prefer no touching on the first date and he was like is that how you treat every guy like?
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: He was just like you know.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: And for a moment, because this was early in my life and because this was early my dating days, I was like am I doing something wrong?
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: But I'm like I don't want to hug you.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: And you know there's a lot of good guys out there who were also brought up in the same water and so they expect women, like when women aren't that way, again not, you know, it's like they need to learn to right, but like I don't something, you know, I don't blame some of them for being confused.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Exactly, it's like they've been socialized to expect certain things.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: We've been socialized to give it yes, and so it's a soft like this awakening is like discombobulating for everybody, everybody.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: We're all like what?
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what's happening?
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: But, um, you know, I really appreciate the conversation and I appreciate the depth and vulnerability that you brought to your book.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Listen, as I'm going to say, listen.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: You got to read the book and you got to read the first third of it at the very least, because you, I think, if you are, have any debilitating memories of shame or core shame or anything like that.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: You will recognize what Karen is doing here to wake you up to like, hey, this might be in your life and you might need to sort of go there to to truly thrive, and it's not just about finding a partner or being in a healthy relationship, it's about thriving overall as a person.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: It's about that relationship with yourself.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's maybe.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: My last question is that can you just talk about the relationship you have with yourself Now?
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Like, what does that look like?
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: I know we talked about your, your glimmers.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: How do you talk to yourself now?
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Um, I, you gosh.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I should have a really snappy answer for that I have to.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: It's all good.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: You know, sometimes I have the shame voice.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: I still have struggles, right, and so it's it is.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: It's a lot of the time.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: It's that very simple, oh, of course.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Hello, like you know, this isn't a you problem.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: You know it's funny.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: You should ask.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I had an experience recently.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I was being coached, actually, and I was.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: I was triggered and I was feeling a shame, probably a little.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it was shame, but I was.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: I was feeling teary and on the spot kind of, and I remember, when I finally answered whatever the question was, I said um, but I've been conditioned to think this way, rather than there's something wrong with me that I think this way.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: And I was like, and I was like, oh, look at me, like, so that's what happens.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Is that, like you kind of don't realize?
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Like you wake up one day and you're like, oh, I don't, I'm not, it's not as bad, yeah, I'm still feeling it.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: So I still have bad experiences, I still, you know, whatever.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: But then I catch myself.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I love that reminder that I'm going to.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to steal that for sure for myself, to remind myself that I have been conditioned to think this way, because then that's that, there's that separation between me.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: I say it's not a me problem.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Mm.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I love that, thank you.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, karen, for coming and sharing.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you, and you please just tell the listeners a little bit about the work that you do, who you work with and where they can find you if they want to connect with you.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: So basically I work with adult daughters who are struggling in the relationship with their moms.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Some of them want to go no contact, some of them already are no contact, some of them don't want to go no contact but are like help.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: So we work on a number of things.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: We work on shame, for sure, because I know that that's part of it.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: I think not because mothers are terrible people necessarily, but that shame just gets handed down.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: If a mother has a lot of shame inside of her that she's unaware of, it spills out all over her kid.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: So so that's what I do, and you know boundaries, intentional identity, glimmers, all that stuff.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: And my website is at kclandersoncom.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: I have a very active newsletter and I also have a podcast called dear adult daughter.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Amazing, and all of those links will be in the show notes when this goes out.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: So please check out all of Karen's work in the show notes, follow her, connect with her.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: She is an amazing writer.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: We didn't talk about her writing, but you will enjoy her content wherever you find it.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I can definitely promise you that.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Karen, thank you so much for being here today.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you, shadeh, thank you so much.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Absolutely Okay listeners.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I hope you resonated with this episode.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: We want to thank you for your time and attention and we will see you next time.