Latest / The Future Herd / 33: Meeting People Where Their Futures Already Are with Tianna Brand

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33: Meeting People Where Their Futures Already Are with Tianna Brand · The Future Herd

0:01
Tianna: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch.
0:03
Welcome to the Future Herd.
0:15
If the future isn't a destination, you predict what if it's something
0:19
you're already building right now, whether you realise it or not.
0:24
Although, if you're on a farm while you're listening to this,
0:27
I suspect you do realise it.
0:30
And so this question sits at the heart of this conversation that we're having today.
0:37
And my guest is Tiana Brand, a foresight practitioner who spent
0:41
her career doing something genuinely difficult, walking into rooms full
0:47
of scientists, veterinarians, policy experts, and people who trust data
0:52
and demand evidence, convincing them that imagining multiple futures isn't
0:59
a soft exercise, it's a requirement of leadership, it's essential work.
1:06
And she did that inside the world, organisation for Animal Health, one of the
1:11
oldest international bodies in existence.
1:14
And she did it as she put it by stealth.
1:18
What drew me into today's conversation is the particular
1:22
tension Tiana navigate so well.
1:25
On one side, you have sectors like ours, AgriFood, animal health, rural communities
1:31
that are facing compounding complexity and crises, climate, disease, trade,
1:38
technology, trust, all of it colliding.
1:42
And on the other side, you have organisations, leaders, and frankly entire
1:46
cultures that respond to that complexity by tightening their grip, narrowing
1:53
their vision, betting everything, uncertainty that they don't actually have.
1:59
Tiana's argument, and it's a compelling one, is that humility isn't weakness
2:05
is the face of an uncertain future.
2:07
It might be the most practical leadership tool we have.
2:12
So what does it actually look like to bring foresight into a
2:15
sector that's sceptical of it?
2:17
And what does it mean to lead when the future isn't one thing, but many?
2:24
Let's get into it.
2:27
Jesse Hirsh: Tiana, welcome to the Future Herd.
2:30
Tianna: Thank you so much.
2:32
It was good to meet you.
2:34
Jesse Hirsh: Now we have a ritual that starts off every episode,
2:38
which is meant to catch most of our guests kind of flat-footed.
2:43
in your case, you've kind of got a bit of an advantage when it
2:46
comes to this question, which is what does the future mean to you?
2:53
Tianna: Oh, well, even, even somebody who practises foresight and, and
2:59
thinks about future in multiples, um, there's that question can
3:05
still catch us all off a guard.
3:07
And then sometimes it does.
3:08
It depends on the situation and the person I'm talking to, um, and how I
3:15
want to, how I want to express myself.
3:17
So in general, for me, the future is, is not one thing.
3:22
Um, it's multiple.
3:25
It doesn't exist yet.
3:27
It exists in our anticipation of those multiple futures.
3:31
So in that sense, it can't be predicted.
3:34
It can be created and shaped by the things that we do today.
3:40
And I can go on about that.
3:41
You like,
3:43
Jesse Hirsh: Right on,
3:43
Tianna: like even, even in our English language, right?
3:46
We thought we use present and, and past.
3:50
Um, and when we talk about the future, it is speculative, it's almost a hypothesis.
3:57
When we formulate our impressions of the future and we try to explain it, it
4:03
remains, um, uncertain and unknowable.
4:08
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and again, to your credit, you're the first person to
4:11
introduce a plurality, uh, uh, as an answer to that in acknowledging
4:16
that there are multiple, if not infinite futures, uh, that are
4:21
part of our understanding of that.
4:24
Jen, why don't I, uh, bring you in here to kind of, I think in your own
4:28
words, bring us to the past before we continue moving towards the future.
4:32
Jenn: Yeah, so Tiana, I, I met you years and years ago, and I wanna just,
4:40
I'd love for you to talk about, for us, what it was like to bring forecasting
4:46
into the world of the World Animal Health Organisation, which is a, what
4:52
is a hundred year old organisation like, how does one bring the concept of
4:56
Foresighting into such an aged being?
5:01
Tianna: Um, well with the, a bit of, um, guts, I guess, especially
5:08
in an organisation which is has a lot of scientists, um,
5:14
veterinarians, you know, very looking for the evidence, if you will.
5:19
Um, the solid answer, you know, heavily reliant on science itself.
5:26
And one thing that I had to go back to with a lot of my colleagues who
5:32
are very open-minded people was to go back to how they think about risk,
5:40
um, and how they think about science.
5:41
I mean, science was all speculation at one point until we, until we
5:45
started experimenting and doing repetition within those experiments.
5:50
And even today, we are learning things that we thought we knew,
5:54
that we thought we knew and that we don't know through experimentation.
5:59
Um, so, and also thinking about it from a risk perspective, you know,
6:03
working in an environment where they are already scanning the horizon for
6:09
what is emerging in terms of diseases.
6:13
And looking at it from an emergency management perspective, when you
6:17
think about the cycle of emergency management, you are anticipating
6:21
as well and you're preparing.
6:25
So using that type of language, it made it kind of interesting
6:29
for them to go, oh, okay.
6:31
Right.
6:31
We seem to be quite siloed in our way of thinking about what risk looks
6:37
like, how risks emerge, et cetera.
6:41
But we also know just, you know, based on our own experiences, that it's never
6:48
just, it's never gonna come at us.
6:50
It one direction.
6:51
It's gonna come at us from multiple directions.
6:53
So thinking about how politics might play out or economics might play out
6:59
in an emergency situation, how weather will play out in an emergency situation.
7:04
It's not going to be just this nice little disease modelling type of situation where
7:11
we've put a lot of parameters around.
7:13
And the reason we wanted to do that was to keep our decision making tight.
7:18
And every, every disease outbreak tells you something new and probably
7:25
something that you knew about and probably should have reacted to.
7:31
And so, you know, these ideas that the lessons learned, um, maybe we should
7:35
be more mindful of what else is going on in the world, you know, prior to,
7:39
uh, rushing out with responses or coming up with a solution or, or what
7:43
have you, because sometimes those solutions can cause other problems.
7:47
So yes, it was a bit of, um, like, why do we need this?
7:52
Um, we already do horizon scanning as it is.
7:56
You know, we're looking at PubMed and we're looking at rumours and everything
8:01
else to find out what is happening in the world in terms of disease outbreaks
8:05
and potential disease outbreaks.
8:06
Why do we need to do this?
8:08
And it was really about, well, there are more, there are more outcomes
8:15
than what we think we'd like to see.
8:18
So that was a way to kind of, um, bring people along with that idea of doing, not
8:25
forecasting, not just disease modelling.
8:28
Those are the four foreseen stuff, but bringing in the unforeseen and what can
8:33
you, um, what can you work with with that?
8:37
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and to what extent is humility kind of central
8:41
to the process of foresight?
8:43
And, and I say that in a cultural context in which arrogance and certainty
8:50
seems to drive a lot of products that would be in the kind of, in
8:55
intelligence or the dashboard space.
8:59
'cause what you're describing, again, couched in the context of risk management,
9:05
does seem to run counter to the culture, at least the business culture that,
9:10
that a lot of organisations look to when, when dealing with the future.
9:16
Tianna: Yeah, absolutely.
9:18
Yeah, that's a good point.
9:20
Um, well, a lot of people don't like to be wrong.
9:25
I think that's where maybe you're coming from as well.
9:27
Like there's that idea of holding tightly to prediction and, um, look,
9:32
if you get it right, it's, it's a bit of luck, I think, rather than actually
9:38
solid, you know, prediction here.
9:42
So yes, there is that sense of the humility needs to be brought
9:45
along with this, and where is nice to centre around that is nobody's
9:51
been to the future and back.
9:54
Show me somebody who has and, and have we listened to that person as
10:01
well, if they had, you know, I mean, there's, there's so many Cassandras
10:05
around us, I think, but at the same time, how nobody's been there and back.
10:09
So there is a sense of humility.
10:10
None of us, doesn't matter how intelligent you are, how, um, you know, well read,
10:16
um, thinking in systems, multiple, multiple ways of, of knowing, et cetera.
10:22
Can you put that all into one and be able to come up with a,
10:26
like, it's gonna be like this.
10:29
What you can do is like, I've got the information that I need now.
10:33
This is what I know now, um, and I'm gonna act on, on that.
10:39
Or maybe I'm not gonna act on that.
10:40
I'm going to bring in some other, some other opportunities and other ways of
10:44
knowing and, and other perspectives.
10:47
The more perspectives you have, the more you realise how
10:50
plural the future futures are.
10:54
It's, um, it's just, uh, as you said, it's almost like it's a, a
10:58
bit mathematical that way, right?
11:00
There's, there's a, there's a multiplicity of them.
11:04
Um, so yeah, sometimes it's just about, okay, well we'll try to narrow
11:07
it down for some people, but keep in mind we can't, and these are
11:11
speculations that we're dealing with.
11:14
Um, and how are we going to move with this uncertainty, not hold too tightly
11:18
onto it, not to hold too tightly onto our assumptions, uh, et cetera, to
11:24
just move our way through it and ask ourselves, who are we doing this for?
11:29
What is our purpose?
11:30
Do, can we think about the next generation when we're making these decisions?
11:34
I think that is something that brings in a lot of humility as well, is because
11:38
there's a sense of responsibility in the present for creating the multiple
11:43
outcomes, um, from the decisions that we take or don't take today.
11:48
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and to go back to Jen's question around the, the broader notion
11:53
of organisational adoption or the way in which organisations can, can wrap their
11:58
head around the, the value of foresight.
12:02
How much of that is, is methods?
12:04
And I don't just mean the methods of the foresight practitioner,
12:08
which is an invitation for you to elaborate on that, also the methods
12:13
of the organisation itself, right?
12:15
The way that they think, the way that they deal with risk, the way that, to your
12:19
point, they think of the next generation.
12:22
How much of that is a dance between you presenting your methods, and at the same
12:28
time trying to get the organisation to think about their own methods it comes
12:34
Tianna: Hmm.
12:34
Jesse Hirsh: of the future or just making decisions in the present?
12:39
Tianna: Yeah, well, I think Woa, the World Organisation for Animal
12:43
Health did give it the old college try, and I think I did as well.
12:47
Um, so part of it is it's a bit foresight by stealth.
12:54
Um, you can do things on an every day, like use foresight
12:58
every day, be foresightful.
13:00
And it could be something very simple as, oh look, you know, we
13:03
have a, we're concerned about at the time, I'll give you an example.
13:08
At the time we're concerned about COVID, um, 19 appearing in farmed animals.
13:13
Like, okay, we need to have a conversation about that.
13:17
As an organisation, you don't need to go through grand gestures, uh, in terms
13:22
you're already working within their methods of like, okay, anticipation here.
13:27
Um, it hasn't happened yet.
13:29
It might not happen, but like, how can we unpack this a little bit
13:32
so that the whole organisation, different parts of the organisation
13:36
can come together and say, right.
13:39
Um, if this happened, you know, the first order of impact there would be
13:43
absolute panic at the, at the supermarket.
13:46
Um, borders would be closing.
13:47
You know, trade would stop.
13:49
And we just unpacked all this information, including what would come out of it
13:53
from a technological perspective in terms of diagnostics, um, in terms of
13:58
how we might run the general session, um, how we might need to come up with
14:03
a new standard, uh, for how to treat this situation, speculative situation.
14:10
And at those points we decided, okay, here's how we're
14:13
going to communicate this.
14:15
Here's who we need to bring in, um, to discuss this because within this
14:20
vast network we have surely somebody's already asked this question and we just
14:23
haven't put it out there yet, so let's, let's tap into these different places.
14:29
So that's what I mean by stealth and working within, you know,
14:32
an organisational, um, context and within their own methods.
14:37
The other part of this for like foresight to be really, I guess, um, accepted, you
14:42
know, brought more into the organisation, sustained within an organisation.
14:48
Um, there's a, a very famous futures researcher who said that
14:55
culture eats strategy for breakfast.
14:58
Meaning that it, sometimes you can have all the strategy, you can work out all the
15:02
strategy you want in the world, you want the organisation to look a certain way.
15:06
However, um, the, the futurist is suhail Inda, by the way.
15:12
Um, but at the same time, if the culture is not.
15:18
A creating an environment in which, you know, that strategy that you've
15:23
come up with, with, you know, with all this foresight, insightful, um,
15:29
methods and, and whatever comes out of those, of those methods, then, you
15:34
know, you're just back to where you are.
15:37
Um, again, so there, there's a bit of that.
15:39
There's a real sense of, um, socialising it as somebody who practises foresight,
15:45
um, looking for the champions within the organisation, um, who will say, yep, I see
15:51
this as something that's really useful.
15:54
And then just doing it by stealth, you know, just little bits here and there.
15:57
Working with people in an organisation of, you know, what, what's, what's
16:01
keeping them awake at night?
16:02
You know, what, you know, they see signals in the air and they want to,
16:06
they feel that there's changes coming.
16:08
How can we unpack that?
16:11
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and I'd love for you to elaborate further on that
16:15
cultural element and, and to give you a,
16:17
Tianna: Okay.
16:18
Jesse Hirsh: of hook to wrap it around.
16:20
Complexity seems to be something that is both part of the, the, the
16:27
role that foresight is meant to address, also part of our culture.
16:31
Like, it, it seems part of the consequence of increased technology, of increased
16:36
measurement of a quantified society is we are entertaining increasing levels of
16:42
complexity like factoring in climate with health, with soil data, with animal data,
16:49
just within the agricultural context.
16:52
How much does culture play in facilitating or shutting down in the
16:58
face of that complexity your larger rather brilliant strategy of, of finding
17:05
the, the, the allies, finding the people you can work with, finding the
17:09
champions who can help move this along?
17:12
I'm, I'm kind of babbling in, in lack of a coherent question, but I'm, I'm
17:18
trying to, on the one hand, reconcile the growing complexity that I think a
17:22
lot of organisations face opportunity for foresight to help give tangibility,
17:29
to give narrative, to give a vision to that complexity, while also recognising
17:35
that it's only so far as the culture will allow that if you don't have a culture
17:39
that will allow for those connections, allow for that brainstorming, allow
17:43
for imagining multiple futures, it, it kind of seems dead on arrival.
17:49
So how do you navigate that?
17:50
Where do you see the opportunities or the challenges there in terms of that
17:54
larger cult uh, uh, cultural context?
17:59
Tianna: That's, um, that's an excellent question, and I think there's a, there's
18:03
a couple ways of looking at this.
18:05
There's the co complex aspect of it.
18:07
The, the beautiful thing that we're recognising about complexity
18:11
is how there's all these feedback loops and how we are, we see people
18:17
thinking more in systems and more connections rather than silos.
18:22
And, you know, maybe that's part of just recognising, wow, we're in
18:27
this real mess and, and actually you are too, and you are too.
18:30
You are too.
18:32
Or we're in this real opportunity space.
18:34
It doesn't have to be a mess, but we're in this real, in-between space
18:37
and, you know, there are things that we are sharing, um, whether it's it's
18:43
values or visions or, or what have you.
18:46
So we recognise that what is happening in the world, what's
18:51
happening with climate change?
18:52
What's happening with soil health, what's happening with animal health?
18:55
You know, everything all connected.
18:57
And we're, we're, we're having these discussions about
19:01
planetary boundaries, et cetera.
19:03
So we're recognising systems thinking and we're recognising the
19:07
interconnections between everything.
19:10
You know, everything is, is connected.
19:13
Um, and maybe I'm, there's no doubt about it, I'm biassed in how these,
19:19
how I view these conversations going on and looking at them as hopeful, um, you
19:26
know, pockets of opportunity and, uh, you know, places where we can really use that
19:34
complexity, if you will, or, or leverage that complexity in a way that makes us
19:41
kind of break the current system, um, and the current systemic thinking about
19:47
how things are not, or the opposite of that, or some kind of version of that.
19:53
Um, so yes, a culture of an organisation does play a big role in that, is in terms
19:58
of its operating or, or allowing the environment to, um, unfold like this.
20:06
They, by ignoring the complexity, um, I don't think anybody's
20:10
doing themselves any favours.
20:13
Not an organisation, not individuals, um, what have you.
20:16
And even listening to some of the, the episodes on, on your podcast, um, you'd
20:23
start to, I think that was the whole point behind it, is to recognise how complex
20:29
things are, but really how systemic and how interconnected all these aspects are.
20:37
And it's bringing in this nice picture, um, a nice way of, of looking
20:43
at complexity and, and appreciating complexity and being, as you had
20:48
pointed out, hu having a little bit of humility in the face of that, uh,
20:53
because there's a sense of control and there's also a sense of emergence.
20:57
And the, the, the thing that I'm hearing mostly within this podcast
21:02
is the emergence piece of it.
21:04
And then just on that, thinking about the title of this podcast, when I hear,
21:11
when I heard Future Heard, I didn't think of HRED, I thought of you're
21:17
hearing it, that it has been heard or it's being, you know, it's being valued.
21:23
Um, so in a sense, organisations are not boxes, um, with
21:31
walls and things like that.
21:32
Organisations can be the communities that you are developing here and connecting
21:39
with across Canada and across different elements within the food system.
21:44
So that itself can be an organisation and we create these things.
21:49
Organisations are people and they need to be connected with and heard
21:56
and herded maybe in some ways to.
22:02
Jenn: Hey, Tiana, can I just build on that for a minute?
22:04
We're talking about like systems thinking and how complex everything is in terms
22:09
of soil health and animal health.
22:10
And we're taking all of that into account, how do we manage mistrust
22:17
or misinformation, where does that fit into the discussion?
22:22
Tianna: Yeah, like who's, whose signals are we, are these signals,
22:25
the things that we're seeing that are, that are driving changes?
22:28
Are they really, you know, to be trusted?
22:32
Um, also organisations themselves.
22:35
Miss.
22:36
Yeah, that's a good one.
22:37
That is a good one.
22:39
I, I don't have a real answer for it from a foresight perspective.
22:46
Um, from a, I guess a scientific, um, you know, person in the world looking
22:56
at things from, yeah, it's a tough one.
22:59
I, I don't have an answer for this.
23:01
Let me just try to think about it a little bit more.
23:05
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and l let me accelerate it and, and give
23:09
you a kind of case example maybe to, to flesh out your thoughts.
23:13
'cause I've been dealing with that I've been trying to, uh, uh,
23:18
emerge or elevate in the podcast.
23:20
And, and I think this is really the first opportunity where I can kind of close the
23:24
loop, is the connection between the threat of zoonotic transmission, the, the threat
23:31
of the kind of pandemics that people who are literate about this stuff are really
23:36
concerned about to the kind of technology or policy of traceability that we need
23:42
to be able to monitor and recognise how illness spreads amongst domesticated
23:48
animals and the resistance amongst farmers who are swimming in a cultural environment
23:57
of conspiracy and disinformation in which they may not be literate or aware
24:04
of the kind of zoonotic transmission threats that the scientists are, instead
24:10
see regulation and regulatory overreach as something that they need to fight.
24:16
So to go to your earlier evocation of something I'm fond of, systems
24:21
are breaking while systems are emerging, they're not always
24:26
the systems we want or need.
24:29
do you, as a foresight practitioner, wade into these contentious spaces?
24:35
How do you help facilitate people imagining futures are grounded in
24:41
science or are grounded in real risk issues that we ought to be talking
24:45
about, are maybe blocked or culturally not accessible because of the nature
24:52
of our current political climate?
24:56
Tianna: Well, thanks for clarifying that a little bit more, because I
24:58
was expecting, I was thinking, oh my goodness, I have to answer something
25:01
so huge that's so complicated.
25:03
And, and having a case, a case in point is a, is a good place to start with.
25:10
Um, I'm gonna say you meet people where they're at.
25:13
You don't need to come with, you shouldn't.
25:19
As a foresight practitioner, have futures already baked and presented to people.
25:25
They, they have their own futures.
25:28
There's, there's, um, one of my colleagues, friends, mentors, Josh
25:33
Poer, who works in the foresight space as well said, it's not so much about
25:39
what's ahead, but what's in your head.
25:42
That is the, the, the sort of essence of, of, of talking to people
25:47
about foresight and futures, or not even talking to them about it.
25:51
Just get in there and be stealthy about it.
25:55
What is in their heads?
25:57
Where is this coming from?
25:59
And meeting people where they're at is, is super important.
26:02
It because it, it establishes their, they already have an established worldview
26:08
of what things should look like.
26:10
They're holding onto a lot of assumptions about the regulatory environment.
26:16
They're hanging on to a lot of conspiracies.
26:19
Everything else, I think they need to recognise, or you need to recognise with
26:24
them what their lived experiences are in the present and the past, and what their
26:29
decisions are for creating the futures.
26:32
So a lot of the things that we see, you know, just think about COVID or
26:37
even avian influenza, something that's probably a lot, a lot more, you know,
26:41
tangible to us, you know, every day.
26:43
It's, it's not that these things happen to us, we're creating the
26:49
conditions for these things to arise.
26:53
So there is a sense of agency you need to go, I believe you need to go back
26:57
to people's sense of agency about their worldviews, how they see the future,
27:02
and have the, have the discussions with them around what their perspectives are.
27:07
Don't come in with something that's already baked.
27:09
It's going to be mistrusted right away, because the, the underlying worry for
27:16
them is that you are trying to control me.
27:20
And that is the opposite effect.
27:23
And especially when you've been regulated, um, you know, you've had a
27:27
lot of regulations, you've probably been a part of some of the discussions to
27:30
develop those policies and regulations.
27:32
A lot of the sort of us and them mentality comes out.
27:37
Um, and there's a way of just opening up the dialogue and letting what's
27:42
in their head come out about how they see the future, how they see the
27:46
present, and how they see the past.
27:48
So again, meeting people where they're at.
27:52
Jesse Hirsh: Although you, you just said something incredibly radical that, that
27:56
I would love for you to circle back and connect into this larger concept of public
28:01
discourse or public perception, which is that we are creating the conditions
28:07
for something like Bird flu or COVID or you know, whatever threat may come next.
28:15
I think there is still a popular perception to use your word agency, we
28:21
have very little, that there is a kind of determinism, an inevitability to the
28:26
world instead, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, you were arguing that we are
28:32
facing the consequences of our systems and there's a certain responsibility
28:38
in acknowledging and addressing that that is a contentious present.
28:45
do we allow for that to be part of the larger conversation?
28:50
'cause it feels some levels, not forecasting, but futurism is used as a
28:57
way to ignore the problems of the present and focus on, say, a mission to Mars.
29:04
than acknowledging the challenges our current systems are created.
29:11
Tianna: Yep.
29:12
I'll just say yes on that one.
29:14
Um, that is, I think a lot of, I think that's how a lot of people feel
29:20
that there is a lot of stuff that's already baked in, if you will, and they
29:24
don't really have any choice over it.
29:28
Um, yes, yes and no.
29:32
I, I look for, I look for the seeds of change that are already happening that
29:39
are, might be counter waves or Yeah.
29:43
Ripple effects.
29:44
Not only ripple effects of things like, okay, well we, you know,
29:48
we're getting off planet Earth, we're gonna go discover Mars.
29:51
And meanwhile, you know, what people really want is a future with healthcare
29:56
and schools and, you know, and, and education and everything else.
30:00
And why is all this money being spent on off planet exploration, et cetera.
30:05
And I don't have a say in any of that.
30:08
Yes.
30:08
That's how our current, um, system is currently looking right now.
30:14
Go ahead.
30:14
You wanna say something?
30:15
Jesse Hirsh: well, I was going to, because you very graciously, uh, uh,
30:20
sort of acknowledged the existence of this podcast and the kind of,
30:24
uh, uh, aspirations of this podcast.
30:27
I think what we can do now is kind of assume that we're addressing sectoral
30:33
leadership, assume that we are addressing the people who, at least in Canada,
30:39
and, and by my stats, some people in Europe, some people in Latin America
30:44
listening to us and are thinking about the future of food and are thinking
30:48
about the future of, of our food systems.
30:52
so far what I've found inspiring and empowering to the point of agency in
30:57
terms of your perspective and, and, and your kind of method of engaging these
31:02
subjects, is it does suggest that we are in a position to imagine new systems.
31:09
We are in a position to work with organisations to anticipate risk,
31:15
even prepare for risk in, in really radical and revolutionary ways.
31:20
So how would you, again, to focus it on the case example we're talking
31:24
about in terms of animal, uh, disease transmission, human animal
31:28
health, and the systems we have.
31:31
What would you say to that agricultural AgriFood, sectorial leadership, either
31:38
on the role that foresight can play in empowering the sector or more specifically
31:45
how it can deal with these challenges?
31:48
A a around zoonotic transmission, around the necessary regulatory balance
31:55
between the values of independent producers and the knowledge of
32:00
epidemiologists who are like, we gotta prepare for these major outbreaks.
32:05
Uh, again, uh, what's your thoughts on, on how to help prepare a sector around
32:12
some of these very difficult tensions, which, which you are, are, are brilliantly
32:17
articulating the context around, let's extend this case example further and
32:23
assume that there are people listening to us who had the ability to engage
32:27
this level of organisational change.
32:30
Tianna: Okay, well maybe that will take me into sharing something with you.
32:35
Um, that I thought of when I started listening to the podcast.
32:38
Right.
32:39
And, and just said, oh, wait a second.
32:41
There's something going on here that, that is quite interesting.
32:43
You're bringing in all these voices to the organisation or the organisation.
32:49
What I mean is what, what you're doing here in the future, in the future herd.
32:53
And they have certain visions of the future.
33:00
So let me just, if I can, I'll try to do this in a way that's, um, efficient.
33:08
There's something that, a, a foresight method.
33:11
I've thought I'm gonna listen to all these podcasts and try to map this
33:14
out, but in the meantime, I'll share it with you and you'll see if you, this
33:19
is of any interest to you whatsoever.
33:22
So what we have is three lines on a page.
33:27
This is called the Three Horizons Method.
33:29
It was created by Bill Sharp and, um, Tony Hodgkins.
33:34
The first horizon is where we are today.
33:37
We know that there's something, it's our sort of business as usual.
33:41
This could be the AgriFood system.
33:43
There's something about it, how we got there, how it was created, and
33:47
we know things are changing today.
33:49
So that over time, what we currently have is actually going to be
33:54
limiting itself in a lot of ways.
33:58
The third horizon is what we imagine what the future is, um, how we
34:04
want to see the future, what are the futures we want to create.
34:07
That could be the visions that we want to create in this case.
34:10
You can do it in multiple visions, if you will, if you want to use
34:14
these boards in, in that way.
34:18
There are, there's stuff happening today.
34:20
So if you imagine xxi being time and what's happening today, and the Y axis
34:25
being all the patterns that we are seeing, uh, predominantly in the, in today.
34:31
So today, the, the business as usual with AgriFood system.
34:35
The third horizon is this visionary mindset.
34:38
We see that there are signals and seeds that tell us that these
34:44
visions of the future are possible.
34:47
And so what are they, how do we collect them?
34:51
Where do we co, uh, curate them, et cetera.
34:56
What is there that tells us that these things are, that these
35:01
visions of the future are possible?
35:03
And the second is where things get broken, if you will, or it's the messy middle.
35:10
We're being a bit entrepreneurial.
35:12
You know, we've identified challenges and risks and opportunities, et cetera.
35:16
Sorry, there's a lot of questions on here, but I wanted to send this to
35:19
you afterwards so that you can, you know, think, think your way through it.
35:23
Um, there are things that are directly impacting the system, but
35:28
we, we want to move to H three.
35:30
We want H two to help us move to H three, the vision of the
35:34
future and what are those things.
35:36
And the messy middle here is if you're going to be an agent of change, who
35:42
are you going to be working with?
35:43
Like, what guidance are you going to give yourself to influence these
35:50
changes, this sense of agency, this where we can go as a, as, um, as a
35:56
new or different, uh, AgriFood system.
35:58
Maybe it's not even gonna be called AgriFood anymore.
36:02
In between H one and h uh three, there could be competing visions of
36:12
what we want, but who are we going to work with and how are we going to
36:17
work with, and, you know, where do we use this opportunity, um, leverage
36:23
this opportunity to get to the visions, uh, that we, that we want.
36:27
That's a very simplified, um, high level overview of what you can do with this
36:35
information that you're collecting.
36:36
'cause I see what you're doing is you're collecting a lot of insights and how
36:40
can they be analysed, um, if you will.
36:43
Sorry, going back to my sort of scientific way of, of imagining
36:47
things, but how can they be analysed?
36:49
What can you do about it?
36:51
What are these conversations that are have that you're having that you can use
36:55
actually as almost like communications products with farmers, with scientists,
37:01
with the regulators, you know, with the university professors, um, all within
37:05
this context and community, um, that you're creating in, in future herd.
37:11
So that's one way of doing it.
37:14
And it just triggered that, it triggered me to think about that when I started
37:19
listening to the different podcasts is people are, are talking about change
37:24
and they're looking at change in various ways and there is a counter wave or
37:29
there's the seeds being planted to tell us that tomorrow could and can
37:36
look different than it does today.
37:39
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and what I love about this is it, it,
37:42
it, it, it validates agency.
37:45
It, it really foregrounds agency, particularly into your point about the
37:49
seeds that can be placed, uh, planted today, which obviously resonates with,
37:54
uh, agricultural types, also evokes an, an, an interesting thought that I'd, I'd
38:01
love to kind of get your reaction to.
38:03
You know, I, I appreciate your point about the messy middle, that inevitably
38:08
in any grand vision, there's all sorts of compromises and to use entrepreneurial
38:13
languages, the necessary pivots that one has to make to, you know, build a
38:18
successful initiative or organisation.
38:22
But the kind of vision that I'm getting from this interface is it, is it possible
38:27
to measure, like, could you engage in a process like this with an organisation
38:33
where let's say the stakeholders or the members say, yeah, this is a
38:38
vision of the future we really want, and then every a GM you could measure
38:43
as to whether the administration, as to whether the leadership is actually
38:48
making progress towards that vision.
38:52
it, it kind of evokes the, the, the legitimacy crisis that a lot of
38:57
agricultural associations face where they, they don't trust that their
39:02
leaders are enacting their vision.
39:05
And much like Britain is experiencing, they keep throwing out their leaders
39:09
so they don't actually make any progress towards the visions that
39:13
they have, because they don't have the patience organizationally to allow
39:17
any of those seeds to be cultivated.
39:20
I, I guess to re-articulate this in the form of a question, I, I love that.
39:25
I'm eager to see that, and I'll include it in the show notes for
39:28
listeners to also go through.
39:31
How is that then used as a tool or a handrail or even just a, a
39:38
document to kind of facilitate not just that moment on the X axis,
39:44
but the movement forward, right?
39:46
As those three graphs kind of dance and interchange with each other.
39:51
Tianna: You know, what I think would be really fun to do is if strategies
39:56
were scenarios, if strategies were, were, were future visions.
40:01
I know we say a lot, we, we talk a lot about visions within strategies and things
40:05
like that, but if we opened up a strategy and it told us a story of multiple
40:10
futures, and so to come back to that idea of how could we monitor that scenarios
40:20
themselves, you're supposed to use them.
40:21
Strategies don't get used that often.
40:24
I mean, they do, they, they do from a sense of, okay, it's an anchor to us.
40:28
Um, you know, we can go back to it and figure out, figure out what we meant
40:32
to do and all that type of stuff.
40:34
But imagine if we were picking up a book and it was a, a series of stories about
40:41
agriculture, and we could even talk those stories about the, the leaders
40:48
within those stories and do the sort of, I guess, typical thing and do a
40:54
bit of a dashboard on how that leader is living in those, in those futures.
41:01
What that leader is doing.
41:04
And every time we, we think we, we have a, almost like a charter, if you
41:08
will, of how that leader is reacting within these, um, within these futures.
41:15
Um, who are they bringing in, what, what characters are involved.
41:19
And then in the present day we go back and say,
41:24
are those competent?
41:25
Do we have those competencies?
41:26
Are they meeting those competencies in order to be.
41:31
Emergent in this future as an like a leader that is adapting,
41:36
that is, you know, in some cases might just need to survive.
41:41
But the, the character that we've built around this leader
41:44
are, is it matching up with us?
41:47
How can we support those leaders?
41:50
And it won't just be one, it'll be multiple leaders.
41:54
How can we support them so that they are thriving in those futures?
41:59
So as opposed to just, you know, a strategy document that's like,
42:03
you know, 2025 to, or 2026, I guess everywhere now 2026 to, um, 2031.
42:11
What if we're saying this is, you know, futures of AgriFood and you're
42:18
telling the story based on those seeds, based on those signals that have
42:22
changed that you're seeing and you've imagining those futures coming forward.
42:26
And you're saying that these are the competencies that these
42:29
leaders are bringing forward.
42:31
These are the things that we're doing.
42:33
And then maybe pinpoint back to, did those leaders do those things?
42:37
What do we need to do to support so that we keep moving towards H three?
42:42
Um, and we keep leveraging what's happening in horizon two to
42:46
bring those, uh, futures forward.
42:49
Now again, everybody's gonna want a different future, but there is a
42:54
way of, of, of, um, acknowledging that that does acknowledge the
42:59
multiple futures that we hold.
43:02
Um, and it doesn't just go, okay, we're gonna do X, Y, and Z as an action plan.
43:08
Um, but we're treating the, the futures as, um, something that we
43:13
are living and that they are lived and they are being carried forward.
43:16
The, the future is, the future in the past are present.
43:21
In the present is what we need to move forward with those,
43:26
with those, um, elements.
43:28
And that might be even moving forward in a zigzag fashion.
43:32
It might be moving forward in a sideways fashion, but it's something,
43:36
um, so that's, that's one way.
43:38
I think it would just be fun to do something like that.
43:40
A strategy document that's a storybook about multiple futures
43:44
Jesse Hirsh: Right
43:45
Tianna: how those characters would write in character reports.
43:48
Jesse Hirsh: Right on all.
43:49
Although maybe one of the, go ahead Jen, please.
43:55
Jenn: I was just gonna kick out on that because as you're talking about,
43:59
you know, the competencies that are needed and the discussions we've been
44:02
having around leadership, it's how do we like even to get to that storybook.
44:07
There's a whole lot of homework the industry has to do in terms of making sure
44:11
our leaders are ready for that kind of leadership, um, and investments into the
44:16
skills that are needed to be good leaders.
44:19
I'm not disparaging the leaders that are out there, but Jesse's laughing
44:23
'cause we've had a couple of podcasts specifically about the leadership
44:27
part around the future of agriculture.
44:31
Anyway, just me geeking out a little bit.
44:33
Tianna: No, but you can.
44:34
You can build What does leadership look like?
44:37
Jesse Hirsh: Well, I was gonna say, Jen, why, why don't you dig that
44:41
a little further into a question?
44:42
Only because I, I, I'm about to ask a question that's gonna be a radical
44:46
departure from where we are, although still building on the conversation.
44:51
And, and I think, Jen, your, your point there about organisational capacity on the
44:56
level of individual leaders is important.
45:00
Do, do, do you want to either elaborate on that or given that we are starting
45:04
to run outta time, take this as an opportunity to throw in another
45:07
question that you want to get in.
45:11
Jenn: Um, I'm going to, I'm not gonna pose it as a question.
45:16
I'm gonna let you take it where you want to go, only because I'm going to, we are
45:19
running out of time and I think what we're really saying is we need Tiana back on.
45:24
But anyway.
45:24
Tianna: Happy to come back on.
45:25
Jesse Hirsh: a
45:25
Tianna: This has
45:27
Jesse Hirsh: it,
45:27
Tianna: fun.
45:27
Jesse Hirsh: we, we, we are, uh, just scratching the surface.
45:30
And, and, and maybe this isn't a radical departure, but kind of evoked something
45:36
a few times that I want to tease out.
45:38
And it's the concept of the feedback loop.
45:41
And I mean the
45:42
Tianna: Hmm.
45:42
Jesse Hirsh: loop, both in terms of the foresight process, but it also came up
45:47
when we were talking about the dashboard.
45:49
And granted the dashboard is kind of the user interface of the moment.
45:54
It's kind of the zeitgeist.
45:56
And I keep trying to go past it by thinking about what is it that the
46:01
dashboard is, is trying to, to address.
46:04
And there is something important about the feedback loop, which we could articulate
46:08
in the concept of leadership, right?
46:10
That the leader goes out, communicates with the membership, gets a whole bunch
46:14
of response and feedback goes back, works on the initiative, comes back.
46:20
Historically that might have been only once a year at an A GM, uh,
46:25
then it became email blasts where it was maybe once a month, once a week.
46:30
Social media initially made it instant, but I'm finding most
46:34
leaders are retreating from that.
46:36
They can't handle a, a high level of a feedback loop.
46:41
So again, on an abstract level, where does the feedback loop rest in either
46:48
the storytelling or the foresight process or just in trying to make sense of, of
46:55
the world that we find ourselves in?
46:58
I, I kind of feel it was something that kept coming up in our conversation
47:02
and I wanna surface it only to maybe set up the next kind of question that
47:07
I'm, I'm leading to with this inquiry.
47:11
Tianna: Okay, so the question is really how do we use the feedback?
47:17
Jesse Hirsh: Or
47:17
Tianna: I suppose that's coming at us.
47:19
Jesse Hirsh: yeah.
47:19
Where do you see the role of the feedback loop in, in, in describing, I suppose, the
47:25
aspirational qualities of the leader we've been talking about in terms of employing
47:29
strategy, of, of having the humility to look at the future and to be curious
47:35
about the plurality of multiple futures.
47:38
I, I, I think Jen Wa was kind of suggest these are rare characteristics
47:44
in our existing leadership,
47:46
Tianna: A r.
47:47
Jesse Hirsh: we, we want to cultivate it.
47:50
Tianna: Yes, I agree.
47:51
I agree.
47:51
I think that's why, um, it's, it's a good, it's good to challenge our assumptions
47:57
about what leadership is and what it should look like, because we have a
48:00
certain frame, um, around leaders and we all have our own individual frame of
48:05
what it means to be a leader, et cetera.
48:08
So there, I think that there's a real, um, in the context that you are working in, in
48:14
the AgriFood, it's, it's multi relational.
48:18
And I think that's where I was trying to also come back to.
48:20
There's, there's parts of the current system that you probably want to keep.
48:24
You don't want to break it entirely, right?
48:26
So there is this idea of, um, uh, that's a bit of a feedback
48:33
from the current, um, situation.
48:37
Where are the things that we want to preserve?
48:39
So in terms of leadership, there's probably things in there about
48:44
collaboration that is very, very normal for people to say.
48:50
Um, and, and I think, uh, a thing that we always fall back on because
48:54
we do it well sometimes and we don't do it so well in other times.
48:58
And when you're looking at the feedback of when you're not doing
49:01
it so well, what do you learn?
49:03
What are the lessons that I have learned here, um, that I don't keep bringing,
49:11
trying to maintain the same system or the same idea of, of leadership.
49:17
Just really need to break down those assumptions about what we think that they
49:20
are and what we think that they should be.
49:23
And that needs to go hand in hand.
49:25
And this is where the, the system thinking goes in.
49:28
It's like not one thing before the other.
49:31
When you're having, you're creating these visions, uh, of the future, the
49:35
leaders are emerging and you need to step out of the, what your current
49:42
perspective on leadership is to what is emerging out of these multiple futures.
49:49
And there are leaders within there, and they won't be, and they hopefully won't
49:55
be, if you want to go into a particular space, won't be the same frame that you
49:59
had from before, but there might be some things that have been preserved from your
50:04
current way of thinking about leaders.
50:07
Um, so that's, I think it's just to be, your radar is on all the
50:13
time, which can be exhausting.
50:16
How, however, once you start seeing how things emerge and the interconnectedness
50:21
of things, you cannot unsee it.
50:23
And there's just sort of a sense of being suspended a little
50:27
bit in the jello of it all.
50:31
It, you know, it, it, it wiggles about, but there's some kind of matrix to it.
50:35
There's, you know, some understanding of it.
50:37
Um, and you are suspended.
50:41
And it's a, a, a sense of just, it's not floating, but there's a suspension.
50:46
There's a suspension of, of, of what you, what you have thought in the past, what is
50:53
seeing, what you're seeing right now and what the possibilities are for the future.
50:59
Um, so it's the only way I can sort of think about it, of just like
51:02
you're, you're kind of in like in this like little bit of a jelly, but
51:05
not, that doesn't have much of a mould that changes its shape quite a bit.
51:10
Um, there's one thing that we keep thinking about actually at the, the,
51:14
in the association of Professional Futures, and I'll just put it
51:17
out there now, is that what are the shapes that the futures need?
51:23
What are the shapes we need to be today for the futures?
51:26
And we're thinking of it in terms of our competencies of looking at the future, um,
51:32
thinking about the future, being with the future in a 10 gramme type of, you know,
51:37
these puzzles that it starts out looking like a square when you break it all down.
51:41
There's all these different parts and you can move them in multiple
51:43
directions and you end up with, you know, thousands of different shapes.
51:48
Um, and so yeah, it is very difficult because we have this frame that things
51:54
have to be the way that they have to be.
51:56
You know, there's, there's, there's just this and there's nothing else.
52:00
But the truth is, you know, our lived experiences tell us
52:03
something a little bit different.
52:04
We need to shape shift.
52:06
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and that is a, a very political statement,
52:10
a revolutionary statement.
52:12
And, and I think now that we are sort of nearing the end, it's kind of important
52:17
to foreground a bias that the three of us share that has kind of underpinned our,
52:23
our conversation today, which has been inclusivity, And it, it started with the
52:28
concept that there are multiple futures.
52:31
And then you also evoked it again when you rightly said that each of us has our
52:36
own future and imagines our own future and will experience our own future.
52:41
And that inherent inclusivity, it not only frames the brilliant concept you just
52:49
described in terms of trying to imagine the shapes that we require for the future,
52:54
which on an abstract level is, is, is very, uh, entertaining and intoxicating.
53:00
But I, I think our assumption, our value of inclusivity, unfortunately,
53:08
is not as widely shared as it should be, uh, either in North American
53:13
society or in the AgriFood sector.
53:16
You, you are connecting to us today from Europe where, uh, Europe has
53:21
its own issues around inclusivity, but certainly on an intellectual
53:24
level has a different configuration than North America currently does.
53:30
How, much is both inclusivity a prerequisite for success in the
53:38
world that you just described?
53:39
'cause that's my argument, that you have to have a certain open-mindedness to
53:44
make sense of a complicated world to make sense of the systems that we navigate in.
53:51
And yet I do observe a lot of people reacting to that information
53:55
overload by closing their mind, by employing prejudicial heuristics.
54:01
That might again, counter with our, uh, uh, a concept of inclusivity.
54:08
I'm rambling again, how do we make that argument on an
54:11
Tianna: It's a.
54:12
Jesse Hirsh: scale?
54:13
Go ahead.
54:15
Tianna: Yeah, it's a, it, well, I think that's, um, it's a,
54:18
it's a protection mechanism.
54:20
There's a lot of information coming at us, and we feel like the
54:22
future is happening to us and we feel like it's being done to us.
54:27
And, you know, what, where do we have our agency and things like this and, and the
54:31
idea of it's, um, the way we look at it or the way I've looked at it, and I agree
54:37
that bias is a really important thing to acknowledge wherever you're coming from
54:42
and, um, and recognise it in yourself.
54:45
Recognise other people's bias, but don't call them out.
54:47
You need to label your, your own bias, uh, as you're going into these things.
54:53
Inclu, it's participatory.
54:55
That's another way of looking at this, is how to make it
54:59
as participatory as possible.
55:03
Inclusive inclusivity.
55:05
You know, there's, definitions are cages I find in a lot of ways.
55:10
So I'm trying to, to, um, balance all this, balance all this
55:15
out by using a different word.
55:18
But when you try to get as much participation as possible, um, you are
55:25
opening up so much more opportunity, and that opportunity for depending
55:31
on what worldviews you have, can be quite frightening for, for others.
55:36
And so there's all kinds of things that we see happening.
55:39
We kind of, it feels like we're repeating ourselves in terms of our, of our history.
55:43
We're probably rhyming with the past rather than, than repeating it, uh,
55:48
because it's in different contexts and different, uh, periods of time.
55:51
But we are, are doing things to kind of shut down, recognise that
55:56
that is happening, and do it, do the participatory thing anyways.
56:03
Just do it anyways.
56:05
Um, yes, that is happening over there.
56:07
Does that need to stop you?
56:09
I don't think so.
56:10
I, I mean, I would be, I would challenge you to keep, keep
56:15
going, whatever that looks like.
56:17
Um, again, because the beauty of the fact that the future is not
56:22
stationary, it is not a pinpoint.
56:25
And you can, in some ways move the, the, that needle in, in different places.
56:32
It's not set in stone.
56:34
It's being created, it's being written.
56:36
Jesse Hirsh: and, and, and let me follow that up by kind of offering a
56:40
case example or offering a challenge.
56:42
You know, one of the prejudices that exists within certainly the Canadian,
56:47
if not the North American AgriFood sector, is a prejudice against policy,
56:51
a prejudice against regulation without realising that there's good policy
56:56
and there's bad policy, there's good regulation, there's bad regulation.
57:01
How would you, what would be your frame for why participation in policy?
57:07
Participation in regulatory conversations is essential to getting past that
57:14
kind of cultural prejudice into the realm of agency where people realise
57:19
that policy can work for them, that regulation can work for them.
57:25
Tianna: Yeah.
57:25
Well, it's an excellent question, and I think policy is in the eye.
57:30
I just, policy is in the eye of the beholder, right?
57:32
Like how it looks is in the eye of the beholder.
57:34
I think that what I, you know, just thinking back to my days in the, in the
57:41
Canadian government, um, at the CFIA, where it was really appreciated was there
57:46
was the dialogue, um, I'm not sure if it's still happening today, but there was a
57:50
dialogue and things weren't prescriptive.
57:54
There was an aspiration.
57:55
You kind of figure had to figure out how you were gonna get
57:58
there, did that work or not?
57:59
Maybe that's a, a lesson that we can start, start learning.
58:04
But for the, for that lesson to be learned, you need to understand where,
58:11
what worked and, and what didn't and, and what could have happened and what
58:15
we should have tried, and maybe now do we have, um, uh, an environment
58:20
now that, that this will work.
58:23
Uh, because you have generations of people moving through different organisations,
58:27
whether that's within agriculture, whether it's within government, et cetera.
58:31
There needs to be this sort of operating environment and a, a, an environment that
58:35
allows for this type of thing to happen.
58:37
So I, again, I think it's really important.
58:40
You can't, you can, you can put policies out there and everybody ignore them.
58:46
And then what's the point?
58:48
Or you can put policies out there where people are part of, they, you
58:54
can have disagreement and conflict.
58:56
I think that's important and healthy, um, and allow for it.
59:03
Yet, at the same time, if there is a need for this regulation,
59:08
let's put it in place.
59:10
But you need to do it with the, I was gonna say consent, but you
59:14
need to do it with the, within the rhythm of what is happening, um,
59:18
with your, with the stakeholders.
59:22
And that includes government as well.
59:25
Um, these things aren't just coming out of nowhere.
59:28
These things are probably not great problem definition.
59:32
So maybe we need to be spending a lot of more time on defining what the problem
59:36
is before coming up with the solution.
59:38
And part of that problem definition comes from your stakeholders as well.
59:42
Government, everywhere, your, your, uh, livestock associations,
59:49
everything, you know, they, you do need to take that into consideration.
59:53
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
59:54
And
59:54
Tianna: answer.
59:55
Jesse Hirsh: our, well, and so our last question, unless Jen wants to get in, uh,
1:00:00
uh, with one last shot before the buzzer kind of the shoutout part of the show.
1:00:05
And, and you've kind of done this already.
1:00:07
You've, uh, quite wisely cited, uh, some of your colleagues and some of the, uh,
1:00:12
uh, the other people who have inspired some of the methods that you've described.
1:00:17
But who, who are the people you look up to?
1:00:20
Who, who are the people that you kind of follow, that you learn
1:00:23
from, that you think the rest of us should be paying attention to?
1:00:27
A, again, it's not a test.
1:00:28
We're not looking for an exhausted list, just a few names to kind of, uh, uh, allow
1:00:33
us to follow the threads even further.
1:00:37
Tianna: Yes, absolutely.
1:00:38
Well, I mean, I came into foresight, um, uh, I was gonna say
1:00:43
by stealth a little bit as well, but also by a bit of surprise, uh,
1:00:48
and just before COVID happened.
1:00:50
So, um, I had to do a lot of reading because I thought, okay, well this
1:00:55
is, I'm being tasked to create this.
1:00:57
I know very little I need to start calling people up.
1:01:01
Uh, and so that's exactly what I did.
1:01:03
Uh, so people within, I was already in an international organisation,
1:01:07
so the work that's being done at international organisations like
1:01:11
the OECD and and unesco, those were the first places that I called.
1:01:16
And then there is the everyday futurist and foresight who are
1:01:20
people who are thinking more from a transformational perspective.
1:01:25
Um, and so that is people like Suhail, Ola, and, um, and even my colleagues,
1:01:32
uh, at the Association for Professional Futurists, being on the board there,
1:01:36
they're coming from diverse backgrounds and I learned something from them
1:01:40
every single time because they are either working in private sector,
1:01:44
they're freelancing, they're working with international organisations,
1:01:47
governments, directly NGOs, museums.
1:01:51
I mean, every time somebody says something about their project, I'm just completely
1:01:56
blown away, including universities.
1:01:58
It's like, why aren't we talking about this more?
1:02:00
Why is this not part of our everyday, um, living and education from a young age?
1:02:07
And I think the other person I think of a lot is my daughter because, um, I
1:02:12
learn something from her every day too.
1:02:14
Like, you know, I have to think about how I am raising her and how she's
1:02:19
raising me so that, you know, in seven years from now, she's, you know, the,
1:02:24
uh, has a, has the ability to cope with what is, what is emerging, um,
1:02:30
and what will emerge in terms of, um, the multiple futures before us.
1:02:35
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
1:02:36
Fantastic.
1:02:37
It, it's been, uh, a, a tour to force.
1:02:40
Uh, thank you Tiano.
1:02:41
A as Jen inferred, we have to get you back only, uh, if, because we've just
1:02:46
Tianna: I'd love to.
1:02:47
Jesse Hirsh: the surface of the kind of systems and transformative change
1:02:51
that I think we all need to see happen.
1:02:55
Tianna: Yes, absolutely.
1:02:56
Thanks for having me.
1:02:56
It was a real pleasure and, and always, you always come out with thought
1:03:00
provoking questions, Jesse, and, and challenge people, and I I really enjoy
1:03:04
listening to this podcast and always enjoy having to catch up with Jen as well.
1:03:09
So thanks again.
1:03:12
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
1:03:13
. These are the kinds of conversations that I aspire to have here on the podcast.
1:03:19
And Tiana absolutely exceeded expectations, uh, not just because
1:03:25
she showed up having done the homework and listening to other episodes, uh,
1:03:31
let alone engaging in a foresight, uh, exercise, which I'll share the link,
1:03:36
uh, to the Miro board in the notes.
1:03:39
But the generosity, the curiosity, the, the deep thought and reflection
1:03:46
that guests like Tiana bring to this podcast is unprecedented.
1:03:52
Certainly for me, in terms of my experience as a learner in terms of, uh,
1:03:57
my desire to organise and share knowledge.
1:04:01
But most importantly, what Tiana was talking about today, in terms
1:04:05
of multiple futures, in terms of inclusive and pluralistic futures.
1:04:11
'cause if anything, that's the antidote to the depressing times that some
1:04:16
of us find ourselves in hope isn't about being naive or even optimistic.
1:04:23
It's about believing in futures that are within our grasp, that are not only
1:04:28
achievable, but are morally responsible things we should be working towards.
1:04:34
And I really came out of this conversation with Tiana thinking that there is much
1:04:40
more I can be doing to deal, uh, uh, in manifesting the futures I desire
1:04:46
in enabling a plurality of futures for me, my family, my friends, and for
1:04:51
you, uh, fellow members of the herd.
1:04:55
And of course, I, I do wanna end on the idea that the future herd
1:04:59
as a title has multiple meanings.
1:05:03
On the one hand, we're a herd of which Tiana is now a member,
1:05:07
uh, much to our benefit.
1:05:10
But it's also, we hear the future.
1:05:14
We are listening carefully to our guests, asking them the kind of
1:05:19
questions that push their thinking, that push their insights, that
1:05:23
anticipate the kinds of multiple inclusive futures that we all require.
1:05:29
So we are here actively listening to the future.
1:05:33
The future is heard, and if you keep listening, there'll be
1:05:37
much more of the future to here in the days and weeks to come.
1:05:43
I am happy to say we've got a bit of a backlog of episodes.
1:05:47
Uh, so we are gonna try to release maybe two a week for the next little while.
1:05:52
Uh, and so I encourage you, uh, to share these episodes with your friends.
1:05:57
Give us ratings on your podcast platform of choice.
1:06:01
We're now posting clips to YouTube.
1:06:03
More incentive to subscribe to our channel there.
1:06:07
And let us know if you have any ideas for future guests, future topics, maybe
1:06:12
even interest in future livestream sessions here for the future herd.
1:06:17
Uh, so much opportunity, so much potential, especially when we have such
1:06:22
fantastic people like Tiana, uh, to talk to, as well as our co-host, Jen, uh,
1:06:28
who, uh, of course played a big role in making today's episode possible.
1:06:33
So thank you, Jen.
1:06:34
And, uh, thanks to all of you for tuning in, watching listening, sharing,
1:06:39
and we'll see you again real soon.