Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #84 – Private Equity and the Future of Law Firms with Jonathan Hawkins

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#84 – Private Equity and the Future of Law Firms with Jonathan Hawkins · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The less a firm depends on you, the owner, the more valuable it is.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Selling a private equity does not mean it's all sunshine and rainbows.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: There are lots of strings that come with those deals.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot lock lawyers down with non-competes.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: If your firm gets acquired, you're like, screw this.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to start my own.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they can't stop you.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's human nature to get worked up and nervous and scared.
• 0:22
  And then I look back sometimes five years later,
• 0:24
  I'm like,
• 0:24
  why was I so nervous?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
• 0:44
  I'm your host,
• 0:45
  Tiffany Swadensky,
• 0:46
  and today I have with me Jonathan Hawkins.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I met Jonathan Hawkins, I think about two years ago.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: He's the owner of law firm GC, law firm.
• 0:55
  general counsel and Jonathan works with and he'll have to
• 0:58
  explain this a little bit
• 0:59
  better than me because I work with mostly personal injury
• 1:02
  attorneys my scope is
• 1:03
  pretty narrow but he's a business attorney who works with other
• 1:06
  law firms and he
• 1:07
  actually has a book the law firm life cycle which I have on my
• 1:12
  tablet and don't
• 1:14
  have in print but it's available on Amazon I think he has a
• 1:16
  book if you guys want
• 1:17
  to get from it's right behind him actually over his shoulder so
• 1:20
  you can see it when
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: you start
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: talking.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Jonathan, for being on the show.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll turn it over to you to finish out your introduction.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Tiffany, thanks for having me.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it was maybe two years ago or so.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so like you said, owner of Law Firm GC.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're based in Atlanta, but we helped
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: folks all over the place.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I represent a lot of personal injury firms.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely have that in common.
• 1:43
  But the way I describe it is we help law firms from formation
• 1:47
  to disillusion and
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: everything in between.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that might come up in the operation of a law firm,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: we probably can help the firm with it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: We discussed a couple of topics we're going to get into,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: and one of those is private equity,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: which I definitely want to learn more about.
• 2:01
  But just because I'm curious,
• 2:02
  how did you get started in this particular area of practice?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so this started about 15 years ago.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: The seed that became the practice I have today,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I started out,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up as a business litigator.
• 2:15
  And I did a lot of business divorces of closely held businesses
• 2:19
  of various types.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I did a law firm breakup, like a law firm business divorce.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned a ton in that.
• 2:28
  And I found out that a lot of law firms often don't have
• 2:33
  written agreements.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if they do, they're
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: not really built for the fight that is going to happen if it happens.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so as my journey progressed,
• 2:42
  I moved from the fights to drafting agreements to help avoid or
• 2:46
  minimize the
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: fights.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And along the way, I had to become an ethics expert because there's
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's all these things you can and can't do as lawyers.
• 2:52
  And then over the years,
• 2:54
  I have just slowly filled in the space and done more and more
• 2:57
  stuff.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So probably about,
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: five years ago,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I started doing more and more succession planning type work,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: transitioning of law firm owners,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: which has then moved me.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned the private equity.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's sort of the new place that I've been playing lately.
• 3:12
  And again,
• 3:13
  anything from operating a firm,
• 3:14
  so maybe an employee issue,
• 3:16
  all the stuff.
• 3:18
  And also the way I tell my clients is I am you because I'm
• 3:23
  running a firm and I'm
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: encountering some of the same issues you are.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I can understand what you're going through.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not everything, but most things.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as a non-lawyer who's been around
• 3:33
  lawyers for a long time it is still surprising to me like how
• 3:38
  much independent
• 3:39
  expertise is developed within the legal field it's also funny
• 3:43
  how often expertise
• 3:45
  is developed your you do a special project you learn how to do
• 3:48
  it you realize not
• 3:49
  many other people understand that in that special way and so
• 3:53
  you just do more of it
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  SPEAKER_01: and so that's how
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of businesses get started.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really, really cool.
• 4:00
  So explain to me,
• 4:02
  like I'm five years old,
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  what's going on with the whole private equity thing?
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So where to begin?
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  SPEAKER_00: This is the way I sort of see how they came in into the space.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's call it 10 years ago,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: 15 years ago,
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
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  you've got the institutional money that started to lend money
• 4:19
  to law firms to
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: get leads to support their dockets, whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: They would lend it as debt and they'd get an interest rate.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: They couldn't really participate in the upside.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So then Arizona came along and they created this,
• 4:32
  they smashed everything and created the ABS structure where you
• 4:35
  could have
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  SPEAKER_00: non-lawyers own law firms.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And for a while that was hot.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody was trying to go to Arizona to get some sort of special
• 4:43
  abs status because then they thought that would be the way that
• 4:47
  they can go you
• 4:48
  know conquer the legal space but a lot of states have been
• 4:50
  pushing back on that i
• 4:51
  don't know a week or so ago south carolina came out with a new
• 4:55
  ethics opinion that
• 4:55
  says you cannot do business a south carolina lawyer cannot do
• 5:00
  business with an abs
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  and a south carolina lawyer cannot own a piece of an abs as
• 5:05
  i've seen it that sort
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  SPEAKER_00: of
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Idea and approach is starting to die down a little bit.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So private equity is coming in a different approach.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one, and I'll just call it the MSO approach.
• 5:16
  And this is one that has been used in dental and accounting and
• 5:19
  all these other
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: professional service verticals for a long time.
• 5:24
  This is not a new approach,
• 5:25
  but it is fairly,
• 5:27
  it's hot,
• 5:28
  I'll say that for law.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: It is, everybody's looking at it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: So basically what that is,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: is they carve out all of the functions of a law firm,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: except for the lawyers and the legal practice,
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  SPEAKER_00: and put it in this
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: other entity called an MSO.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's a managed services organization.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that does all the support and everything for the firm.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then you've got these service agreements with the law firm,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: and then the law firm pays MSO for that.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the MSO can be owned by anybody.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to have a law license to own it.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's how private equity is getting in there.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're going to own it
• 6:01
  the MSO and then start to roll up these firms and they buy the
• 6:05
  assets and all the
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: operational pieces and they put it in the MSO.
• 6:09
  So they'll have this sort of hub in the middle that is the
• 6:12
  services organization
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  SPEAKER_00: and all around are going to be the law firms.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how they're getting in.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: What are the pros and cons of getting bought out by private equity?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's a loaded question.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you.
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  So if you are the owner or owners and you're towards the end
• 6:34
  and you're ready for
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: an exit,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: this gives you the exit.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've done a lot of,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: like I mentioned earlier,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of succession planning over the years.
• 6:41
  And,
• 6:42
  you know,
• 6:42
  historically for law firms,
• 6:44
  there's really only a few options.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: You could sell internally to people if you had people there.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: You could maybe find another firm that would sell externally.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's a couple forms that could take.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or he's just shut it down.
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  SPEAKER_00: And now there's a new option on the table and that's private equity.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's for certain types of firms.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to work for every firm,
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  SPEAKER_00: but for certain types of firms and with certain,
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: if they're in the right place at the right time in terms of the owner,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: where they want to go and all these things,
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  now they have a new option to just sell out and they can get a
• 7:18
  nice check and walk
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: away for the most part.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Not completely, but for the most part.
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  If you're on your way out,
• 7:25
  you can be bought by private equity and that's a new option to
• 7:27
  you.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: What qualifies you to get bought by private equity?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like if that's what you want, what do you have to do, I guess?
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  So there's lots of different reasons why somebody might want to
• 7:38
  acquire a certain
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: firm and lots of reasons why they may not want to acquire your firm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so where I have seen it personally and up close and
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: in the trenches is personal injury right now.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's where a lot of folks are going.
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  SPEAKER_00: And even within personal injury, you have different types of firms.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
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  you have the high-end boutique trial lawyers that may handle a
• 7:59
  docket of 10 to 20
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: cases at any given time.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: They try cases, big cases.
• 8:04
  That's not really going to be something that I don't think
• 8:07
  private equity is really
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: going to want,
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: at least not in the beginning,
• 8:10
  because the value is really tied to that trial lawyer that can
• 8:13
  go in there and just
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: try a case and all of that.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: On the other end of the spectrum of the PI,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: you have sort of the billboard,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: high volume,
• 8:23
  I call it almost the widget factory type practice where you've
• 8:27
  just got a high
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: volume of cases coming in,
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  SPEAKER_00: maybe lower dollar value,
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: generally speaking,
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: and it's more of an enterprise and
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: machine.
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  And you might have an owner like John Morgan or somebody that's
• 8:39
  branded and
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: everybody knows who that is,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: but John's not doing the cases.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a huge team of people doing the cases.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: So really it doesn't matter if John's in the business or not.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so private equity
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: person can say, we'll just buy John out.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not that this happened, but this is how they're thinking.
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  SPEAKER_00: We'll just,
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: we'll keep them on the billboards,
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  but we're going to own it in the background and nothing's
• 8:57
  really going to change
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: from a day-to-day operation.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really more of what I think they're looking for.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm a law firm owner out there at
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know, the ways that I would want to get ready.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I tell a lot of owners that,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's the irony or not,
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: but the less a firm depends on you,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: the owner,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: the more valuable it is.
• 9:17
  And so what are ways you can work on your firm to get yourself
• 9:22
  removed from the day to day?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So first thing,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do the cases.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Have somebody else do the cases.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do the operations.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do the marketing.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: You just go down the list.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: you orchestrate that and you're at the top and you fund it and all that,
• 9:34
  but you have other people and other groups within your
• 9:37
  organization that are doing
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: those things.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
• 9:41
  Do you think it's like wise for some law firms to hold out and
• 9:47
  resist private equity?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I guess that's kind of my question.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you feel like this is kind of an inevitability?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think this is going
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: to take some time.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to end in two years.
• 9:58
  I think this is a process that's probably going to take 10 or
• 10:00
  more years,
• 10:01
  15 maybe to play out.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: If I am on the younger end of the spectrum, I've got a long ways to go.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why would I want to cut off my revenue stream?
• 10:10
  Is it going to be enough money to sustain me for the rest of my
• 10:13
  life versus somebody who's
• 10:17
  and has sort of already done it all,
• 10:19
  and maybe they don't want to do it anymore.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's good exit ramp.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of it's age.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I know some younger people that just want to do something different,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: and they want to get out.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, okay, I want to go try a new venture.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that might be a reason.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Selling to private equity does not mean it's all sunshine and rainbows,
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: because there are lots of strings that come with those sorts of deals.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And also,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:42
  if you have a team and an organization you've built and you
• 10:45
  care about your people
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: and you want all these things,
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: maybe those are reasons why you wouldn't want to sell to certain groups.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And not all private equity firms are the same.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of reasons, pro and con.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: It really depends on the personal situation, I think.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Private equity pretty much takes over marketing operations.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what's left is like a small team,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: paralegal,
• 11:12
  maybe legal assistant and a few attorneys who actually like run
• 11:17
  and process the
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: cases as they would have before,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: just without the operational overhead.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Does that sound about right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: So all the people,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: usually all the people,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: paralegals,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: assistants,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: everybody except the lawyers are in the MSO.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so the MSO will rent,
• 11:36
  or provide the paralegal services or the administrative
• 11:40
  services through the MSO
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: and the law firm will pay for that.
• 11:44
  It'd be like if you hired a contractor or some business that
• 11:48
  gives you paralegal support.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: You don't actually employ the paralegals.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're paying the vendor.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Same concept.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so only the lawyers typically are left in the law firm.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like if they don't like their paralegal or their legal assistant or...
• 12:02
  If the lawyer isn't properly supported by operations,
• 12:06
  like how is that handled?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to see how this plays out.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 12:11
  I definitely see the value of outsourcing certain things like
• 12:15
  and I was just having
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: a conversation with a client of mine,
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: a former client,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I guess.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And he was asking about like SEO.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: for me,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: like SEO is the industry that I'm watching and I'm wondering,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: what's going to happen in the next few years.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, private equity has kind of come into that space as well.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: But also at the same time,
• 12:35
  you have this like dramatic shift and like search and AI and
• 12:39
  all this stuff.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's unclear if what SEO companies,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: at least to me,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: traditionally do is going to be massively beneficial.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: But that's a tangent.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: That was a tangent.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what I meant to say was like, you know, SEO website administration
• 12:53
  You know,
• 12:53
  the overhead to keep the people on board at a law firm to do
• 12:57
  those things is massive.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much cheaper to rent that out to a vendor.
• 13:01
  But like you don't like your SEO vendor,
• 13:04
  you can fire them and hire a new SEO vendor.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's still a pain, but it's still a choice you get to make.
• 13:09
  Kind of sounds like you're saying,
• 13:10
  though,
• 13:11
  that attorneys may not get the choice.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that's a great question.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see how that plays out.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's in,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would think,
• 13:19
  the MSO owner's best interest to make sure that they are
• 13:23
  providing quality help.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: If a paralegal or whoever is not doing a good job,
• 13:29
  they would want to know that and actually get somebody that's
• 13:31
  doing a good job.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you're right.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how much influence could the law firm have over that person?
• 13:38
  And then you get into this is where the ethics part comes
• 13:40
  through is the opposite
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: where the non-lawyer MSO,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: the MSO owned by a non-lawyer is trying to dictate what legal approach,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: that the lawyers take.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that is not allowed.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: They cannot do that.
• 13:54
  And so they're not supposed to do that,
• 13:57
  but we'll see,
• 13:57
  are they going to try to do that?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then how's that going to work?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: What about case selection?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's something I go through with all of my clients.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: The difference between good lead,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: bad lead,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: if we should have gotten it,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: if we should have,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: rejected it.
• 14:11
  But if the marketing and intake is being handled completely by
• 14:14
  something else,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: are you just assigned cases to work?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Again,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 14:19
  I'll say this in some of my clients that are bigger firms that
• 14:23
  have volume,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: high volume practice that are all in one under one roof.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that sort of happens already.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Here's your case.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not sure it'll be that much different, but.
• 14:36
  I can definitely see it being like kind of a comforting thing
• 14:40
  because marketing is so hard.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Marketing is so competitive that I could easily see why,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:46
  having that process outsourced because not many lawyers that I
• 14:49
  talk to because most
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: of the lawyers I talk to own the law firms.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:53
  I bet there are quite a few attorneys who would just be happier
• 14:57
  just practicing law
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: or doing what they want to do.
• 15:00
  But like the owners that I know,
• 15:03
  I don't think they're working for the private equity firm.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're thinking about like how to leave and do something else.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this has been a trend across like so many industries.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I know what you're talking about, like my doctor's office was
• 15:16
  bought out by private equity and merged into this like massive
• 15:19
  statewide health
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: care conglomerate.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is this like a sure thing?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 15:23
  have they figured out the legal industry in the same way they
• 15:26
  figured out like
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: dental and some of these other health care?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's two early
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: to tell.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: They're certainly going to give it a go.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is it going to work long term?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: It may work in certain parts of the law.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think certainly there are parts where it is just not going to work.
• 15:41
  But I do think,
• 15:42
  and this circles back to some of what you do,
• 15:45
  Tiffany,
• 15:45
  and it's
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't want to go that route,
• 15:48
  there are things that smaller firms can do that the bigger
• 15:52
  firms cannot do in terms
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: of marketing approaches and business development and lead generation.
• 15:59
  There are places that a smaller firm that wants to stay small
• 16:02
  can compete and win
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: against these behemoths.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: So are you going to be able to compete on Google ads with the big boys?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: But are those leads even that good anymore?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's the other thing is broadly looking at like case values and CPAs.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 16:20
  it's not Google ads necessarily or digital marketing that gets
• 16:24
  you the best quality
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: leads.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 16:27
  most of the leads that come through Facebook ads or other very
• 16:31
  low to mid range at
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: best,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: occasionally a real winner.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, for people who have been seriously injured,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: who are talking to multiple doctors,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: who are getting exposure to people who deal with serious injuries,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: or simply have family members who have been through car accidents,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: most people ask for referrals first.
• 16:52
  And the bigger the injury,
• 16:53
  the more likely they're going to seek a professional.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of leads are private equity going to attract?
• 17:00
  And is it just going to replace law firms that advertise more
• 17:04
  like Morgan & Morgan?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is it really going to impact the people who...
• 17:08
  want to feel like they're at least like close to their lawyer
• 17:13
  and somebody who's
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: paying special attention to them.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Just generally the people who come through the referral channels.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing to keep in mind with private equity,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: generally speaking,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: there's a four to maybe seven year turn.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So they want results really within five years.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's easy to throw money at
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: billboards and TV and digital to get quicker hits where the relationship
• 17:38
  development stuff just is a longer play and so I'm not sure if
• 17:42
  I'm a private equity
• 17:44
  fund do I want to spend a lot of time investing in things are
• 17:47
  going to take that
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: might come to fruition after I'm already out I don't know
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 17:52
  I don't know all of the injuries that are all of the industries
• 17:55
  that have been
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: absorbed by private equity.
• 17:57
  But with law firms,
• 17:58
  some of the things that make law firm marketing unique is one,
• 18:02
  the timeline.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: dentistry,
• 18:04
  you could probably net some cleanings with some lead generation
• 18:07
  ads really quick.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine I've never done it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for health care,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: you could probably increase appointment setting and get paid that way.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: As you know,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: with personal injury firms,
• 18:17
  like you get a case and it might be months to a few years until
• 18:20
  it's resolved.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if AI is shortening those timelines yet.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's definitely like a longer life cycle to make money.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I know like talking to like young lawyers,
• 18:31
  like usually the start of a personal injury firm is working
• 18:35
  without a paycheck
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: until you kind of settle that first big case,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: which is not a business model.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people are kind of eager to jump into.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's scary.
• 18:45
  If you don't have the war chest built or at least a line of
• 18:49
  credit you can tap into
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: takes a little while.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're helping a lot with these private equity transitions now, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Starting to.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:56
  Could you talk a little bit about who are the law firms that
• 18:59
  you're helping?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess generally, like what kind of benefit are you bringing them?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I can't disclose details,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: but I can say the ones I've been involved in,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: personal injury,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm on the seller side,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: not the private equity side.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Those are typically, you know, big firms.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Think the big national, international type firms are on that side.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on the seller side.
• 19:20
  And again,
• 19:21
  the ones I've seen are personal injury,
• 19:23
  hear talk about some others.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've had
• 19:26
  lead people calling me,
• 19:28
  asking me if I can give them leads,
• 19:30
  private equity side.
• 19:31
  I've gotten calls from what I'd call traditional type firms
• 19:35
  that have the old
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: general practice type firms that say they've been getting calls.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And on some level,
• 19:41
  I think there are a lot of new funds that have popped up that
• 19:44
  have never been in
• 19:45
  the legal space and they're just putting out lots of feelers
• 19:48
  and they don't really
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: know yet.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: where to go and what they're going to try to do.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: But on the personal injury, it's ramping up more and more and more.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: everybody's heard of the Chad Dudley,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Dudley de Bossier deal down in Baton Rouge,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: and he's out there looking for more.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really hit.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's where everybody's talking about it.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: But there are other,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: as I'm looking at it,
• 20:09
  I would look at probably consumer facing type practices with
• 20:14
  higher volumes.
• 20:15
  would be some of the areas that i think they're going to be
• 20:18
  looking at so maybe
• 20:20
  immigration maybe consumer bankruptcy maybe real estate or
• 20:25
  residential real estate
• 20:26
  maybe family law but that's sort of like pi too there's a
• 20:29
  spectrum there so we'll
• 20:31
  see how it plays out and i think this is going to be 10 to 20
• 20:35
  years before we
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: really see and it may not work at the end of the day it may not work
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you said like 10 to 15 years,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: like we're going to see if this really works,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: if this really doesn't.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right.
• 20:46
  Like even I've started getting like weird emails that I assume
• 20:49
  are spam of some
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: degree,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: but that are also talking about private equity,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: acquiring marketing agencies in the legal space.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't imagine they're actually serious, though.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, so they're looking for resources.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're absorbing it.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's honestly kind of scary.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: it makes me want to get kind of dystopian about it because,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: we're really,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: as a people heading in this direction,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: we're like,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: everything is owned by...
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: these huge, big companies.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, maybe that's just like the trend everywhere.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, like I live in the real world.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I drive into my home, you know, my town where I live.
• 21:29
  I shop at the store that's owned by a woman that I know,
• 21:33
  like I met her a few times.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I like that, you know, as a consumer, I like that.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I can see myself also like as a consumer,
• 21:42
  I switched doctor's offices when my doctors was bought by or
• 21:46
  absorbed by private
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: equity.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's exactly the same thing.
• 21:50
  So from a consumer standpoint,
• 21:52
  I'm not sure,
• 21:53
  you know,
• 21:53
  what the market will decide here.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like if people will just buy the most visible option in the legal space,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: the low quality leads going to Google looking for attorney near me.
• 22:04
  click the one with the most reviews and you know you're off to
• 22:08
  the races or if
• 22:10
  there's still like a subset of the population who wants to meet
• 22:14
  somebody shake
• 22:15
  their hand and feel like they're dealing with a local business
• 22:19
  owner and then like
• 22:20
  i think about some of the attorneys i know who are just like
• 22:23
  basically celebrities
• 22:24
  in their hometown like how are they going to be absorbed you
• 22:27
  know legal is one of
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: those industries where
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: personal identity and personal brand.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I talk to attorneys about personal brand all the time.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's so important, yet it's so convoluted and complicated.
• 22:38
  But is it something that you fear for the industry or you fear
• 22:42
  private equity for this industry?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think it's like just the next step in evolution or something?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't fear it.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it will change things for sure.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the law is so fragmented.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many small shops everywhere.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you cannot lock lawyers down with non-competes.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if your firm gets acquired, you're like, screw this.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to start my own.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they can't stop you.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Where in other fields, you can lock people down.
• 23:07
  And it's a little bit tougher for them to just leave and start
• 23:11
  their own thing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: I do think it's gonna take a long time to really consolidate,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: and they're never gonna be able to consolidate at all.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's just no way.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna see some really big players.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you've sort of seen it with Morgan.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've seen it with, if you look back over the last 25 years
• 23:27
  When they started advertising,
• 23:28
  you know,
• 23:29
  it was dominated by sort of these local markets.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then Morgan,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm not a historian of this,
• 23:34
  but my impression is that Morgan was really the first that
• 23:38
  really started creating
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: a bigger,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: more national platform.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And others have started to go that way.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: That was sort of happening already anyway.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is just the next chapter in that.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: But even with Morgan and others doing this,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: you've seen so many new smaller firms pop up over the years.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like there's more of them.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: than there were before.
• 23:57
  I think there are always going to be opportunities for a lawyer
• 24:00
  that wants to start
• 24:01
  their own firm or have their own firm and not have to be tied
• 24:05
  to some bigger
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: machine.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the beauties.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like other industries where you have huge capex costs.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to buy this big equipment and big buildings, all these things.
• 24:15
  All you need to practice law,
• 24:16
  really,
• 24:16
  is a law license,
• 24:17
  an internet connection,
• 24:19
  and a computer.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you can go.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: You need clients and all those things, too.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not that hard to get it going.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And to make a decent living.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you may not conquer the world, but you can make a decent living.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not that worried about it.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely a topic that's like all the rage and I hear a bunch about it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel very much the same way you do.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 24:36
  I feel like there will always be space for people who want to
• 24:41
  run their own
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: business,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: to do something on their own.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, just...
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: As a marketer,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: not a lawyer,
• 24:51
  it's always very frustrating to me how difficult it is to
• 24:54
  market and how difficult
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: it is to find just the right kind of case for an attorney.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it just really doesn't sound like that's going to change.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: None of the law firms I work with want the cases that
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Morgan & Morgan handle or that private equity is going to attract.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it just depends on the person,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: like if you want to go this route or if you want to go that route.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let me ask you this.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Why does it seem to me that so many lawyers are worried about it?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why do I hear a lot about private equity?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think because it's the new thing on the scene.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's brand new, and I mean, everybody's talking about it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: At least where I am, everybody's talking about it.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody wants to know.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even last week here in Atlanta, some friends of mine
• 25:38
  we're getting together to lunch and we're getting together to
• 25:40
  talk about private equity.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I joined them and it's just every, it's just all the rage.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it will quiet down.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just think it is, you know, burst on the scene.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're getting lots of emails and calls, but it will die down.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: remember private equity or any buyer,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm buying a business,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: let's just say a small business search.
• 26:00
  buyer,
• 26:01
  they look at dozens or hundreds of small businesses and pass on
• 26:05
  so many of them.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: To make a deal work, it's got to be a very particular type of deal.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody's out there looking,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: but most of these firms and most of these,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to get passed on.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: They're not an ideal target.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, but nobody knows that yet.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the allure, it's the new thing.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that's part of it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: I suspected.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 26:24
  and I also am old enough to remember and I've been in this
• 26:27
  industry long enough to
• 26:28
  remember self-driving cars and some very serious conversations
• 26:34
  at mastermind groups
• 26:35
  are about how self-driving cars are going to kill the personal
• 26:38
  injury industry.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt the fear, you know, at the time.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Years later,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have a car with,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: automated driving features,
• 26:48
  but even Tesla doesn't put themselves forth as automated
• 26:52
  driving because that
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: wasn't,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's safe to say now,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: that was an overblown fear.
• 26:58
  And so,
• 26:58
  you know,
• 26:59
  when I've thought about private equity,
• 27:01
  I think of that.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think like, is this like self-driving cars?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is this like something that
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: a whole lot of people are worried about, but we're not quite there yet.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's more complicated than that.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 27:14
  And it kind of sounds like it is,
• 27:15
  but maybe actually more of a legitimate threat than Tesla was.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I get the same sense about AI.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a similar end of the world.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Some people think it's the end of the world.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's the end of jobs.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: No one's going to have a job.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's other people that say, no, it's all hype.
• 27:33
  And we'll end up somewhere in between,
• 27:35
  but we'll probably end up with more jobs.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's human nature to get worked up and nervous and scared,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: and I fall victim to it all the time.
• 27:44
  And then I look back sometimes five years later,
• 27:46
  I'm like,
• 27:47
  why was I so nervous?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, hell, COVID, we thought we were all going to die, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: And some people did, so I don't want to, you know, whatever.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: But people wiping their groceries down,
• 27:58
  And then you look back and you're like,
• 27:59
  man,
• 28:00
  I think we ever reacted a little bit.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely remember a moment during COVID where,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to play it cool,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: definitely trying to play it cool around my husband and the kids.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I was listening to a news broadcast.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was very early.
• 28:15
  And a doctor was on a news show saying,
• 28:17
  like,
• 28:18
  it doesn't seem to affect kids that much.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, thank God.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: That
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: At that point,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of my COVID fears went away,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: but it was a very scary time and we've quickly forgotten that.
• 28:29
  But well,
• 28:31
  Donovan,
• 28:31
  thank you so much for being on the show and talking private
• 28:34
  equity.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I want to talk more about AI since you touched on it,
• 28:38
  but I'll spare my listeners because I did a lot of that in the
• 28:41
  last episode.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: But definitely also something I think is a little bit overhyped.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: But thanks so much for being on the show and talking with me.
• 28:48
  Is there anything that you wanted to go over that we didn't
• 28:50
  have a chance to talk about today?
• 28:52
  No,
• 28:52
  I mean,
• 28:52
  there's so much we could talk about,
• 28:54
  but you'll have to get me back on later.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Although to date,
• 28:58
  the longest episode I've done was with Charlie Mann and it was
• 29:01
  almost two hours.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just going to let him win that race for a little while before.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, going over.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: But well, thanks again.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you want people to look you up and learn more about you?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: My website is lawfirmgc.com and I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Come find me there.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's Jonathan Hawkins Law Firm General Counsel,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think is maybe my sort of,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: if you do that search,
• 29:25
  you'll find me and send a connection request almost to the end
• 29:28
  of my connections,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: but shoot me one and I'll accept it.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And your connection request for the month?
• 29:34
  No,
• 29:35
  you get max you out at 30,000 connections and then you can't
• 29:37
  connect anymore.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can only follow after that.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: I evidently have not been LinkedIn-ing hard enough because,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: that's the number to beat,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: guys.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, congratulations on that.
• 29:51
  Well,
• 29:51
  thanks so much again for being on the show and we'll see
• 29:54
  everyone next time.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Tiffany.