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The Psychology Behind Infidelity: Why People Cheat w/ Dr. Nicolle Zapien · The Psychology of Relationships

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck and I'm U.A.S.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U.A.U
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Nicole Zavian, licensed psychotherapist and sex therapist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: With years of experience studying the intersection of behavior, desire, and emotional connection, Dr. Zavian brings a nuanced, research-backed perspective to the topic of infidelity that's often oversimplified.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we unpack the psychology of cheating and what actually drives someone to be unfaithful.
0:48
[SPEAKER_01]: We explore the common reasons for infidelity, and why certain people may be more prone to cheating than others.
0:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And what these patterns reveal about attachment, on that needs, and personal responsibility.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We also dive into the question so many people ask, can a relationship recover after betrayal?
1:06
[SPEAKER_01]: From rebuilding trust to recognizing when it's time to walk away, we break down how to determine whether reconciliation is truly possible.
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[SPEAKER_01]: or relationships, or Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and if this episode shifted how you think about infidelity and trust, we'd love our rating or review.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships, and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy!
1:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, we're here to talk about infidelity.
1:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So great to have an expert on this.
1:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also think how can someone be an expert in fidelity?
1:44
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?
1:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.
1:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Dr. Zapian, why do people cheat in general?
1:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do people cheat?
1:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, that's a huge question.
1:53
[SPEAKER_02]: There are many reasons, really.
1:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And they boil down to, in some ways, reasoning isn't really part of infidelity.
2:00
[SPEAKER_02]: People aren't usually thinking clearly when they're cheating.
2:03
[SPEAKER_02]: So they hide some aspect of why they do it to themselves, while they're doing it, and even afterwards.
2:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So the whole premise of cheating is betrayal and lies.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You lie to yourself, you lie to other people, and you kind of go about something.
2:17
[SPEAKER_02]: But why people cheat is they're trying to do something without hurting anyone?
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[SPEAKER_02]: They're trying to kind of bend the constraints of reality.
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[SPEAKER_02]: in almost every case.
2:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So I did my dissertation research with people who cheat.
2:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So I interviewed a bunch of people who have cheated in the past or were currently achieving.
2:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And what they told me, which I found really fascinating, was what they thought the reasons were.
2:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And in many cases, they were sort of unclear to themselves, even long after the case.
2:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And in many cases, they were trying to protect someone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So protect someone from the hard truth.
2:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I no longer love you.
2:50
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't do it for me, sexually.
2:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm annoyed with
2:53
[SPEAKER_02]: some sort of conflict in our relationship, but I don't want to break up because of the kids or because of our history or because of whatever else.
2:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to go and get split off some of my needs and get them satisfied somewhere else.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: In many cases, also people were honestly just struck by someone else out of the blue.
3:08
[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't intend to cheat.
3:09
[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't set out to cheat.
3:11
[SPEAKER_02]: They sort of slid into a cheating scenario.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So imagine this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're in a relatively happy relationship.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're bubbling along, doing your thing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You go to a cafe, some lightning bolt strikes you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You see someone from across the room, you have a really engaged conversation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's really fun and you can't put it down.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You kind of just can't let it go.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you say to yourself, I can be this person's friend.
3:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I can find a way to have this person in my relationship in my life and it won't get out of hand.
3:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And you continually kind of move the needle or the line out over and over
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[SPEAKER_02]: in a hotel room.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So there's lots of different scenarios, but nobody kind of sets out saying I'm going to go cheat a couple people do of course, but for the most part that's not what people are doing.
3:51
[SPEAKER_02]: They're honest people trying to have a good time or trying to do some good in their lives and they end up cheating.
3:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there any differences?
3:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's numbers that
4:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's a, I wanted to get your take off.
4:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Hadero men historically have had more opportunities to cheap.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if you think about 50 years ago, women weren't working, they didn't have their own money, they didn't have as many business trips to take or as much freedom.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So now that women are more likely to be doing business travel, having their own accounts, having all these kinds of things, their rates of cheating are increasing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Also, women in men lie differently and cheat differently.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, not always, but sometimes.
4:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think those numbers are erroneous.
4:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Plus people lie in surveys about cheating.
4:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So here's the other thing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm studying cheating, right?
4:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's about lying.
4:39
[SPEAKER_02]: What was fascinating to me was how many people would sort of like omit pronouns.
4:43
[SPEAKER_02]: They would sort of say, oh, yeah.
4:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And then all of a sudden, Cupid's arrows struck me or something.
4:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, well, where's the intentionality in that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Where's the subject?
4:50
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you actually got the hotel key and went there and did it.
4:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, let's be clear.
4:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think people are kind of lying to themselves and lying to others and lying to researchers.
4:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think we can trust any of those data.
5:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a certain persona or like characteristics of someone?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, when I think of it, and this is just clearly not backed in any science or data, so you would know better.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think of someone, maybe that's more adventurous or like, gets bored easily or wants to.
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[SPEAKER_02]: kind of right actually.
5:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's kind of true.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So people who have ADHD or people who are addicted to substances or people who we call it socio-sexuality which means they're more adventurous, more extroverted, more interested in flirting with lots of people are more likely to quote-unquote have more sexual partners which includes cheating and also consensual sexual partners.
5:33
[SPEAKER_02]: But that said, I think it's more contextual than anything.
5:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're relationship, if you're primary monogamous relationship, if you're in a monogamous relationship is under stress
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the distance can be because one person has a variant cancer and therefore isn't that interested in sex for a long time is kind of preoccupied or a person who has just lost their parents and is grieving and therefore isn't available or people who travel for a business a lot and aren't in the same time zone.
6:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Those kinds of contextual factors matter more than personality.
6:03
[SPEAKER_02]: God it.
6:04
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're citing some of the reasons why people cheat, it really resonated with me.
6:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Also the way you said it, it almost made me feel sorry or the empathetic towards these cheaters.
6:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And with my ex cheated on me, he was very adamant about telling me the why.
6:18
[SPEAKER_01]: He don't want to tell me the what?
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[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't want to tell me who it was, what they did, but he said, don't you want to know the why?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And these are the why he gave me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He said, because the relationship was still, because I couldn't resist the commands and there was a connection and they offered a different energy.
6:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he went on to say, I'm not one of the bad guys who cheat.
6:36
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of justification around why he cheated almost in a way of explaining.
6:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's exactly what you said he ended up on bed with someone, but it wasn't his doing.
6:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't his intentionality.
6:47
[SPEAKER_01]: He just he couldn't resist the commands.
6:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there ever a good reason to cheat?
6:51
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the one case where I heard that they'd been together for very long time, they were very close.
6:56
[SPEAKER_02]: This woman had ovarian cancer.
6:57
[SPEAKER_02]: She was going to die.
6:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was a long, slow process of chemotherapy and death like hospice and whatever.
7:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you can imagine a year and a half and these are relatively young people and they're not gonna have sex again.
7:07
[SPEAKER_02]: She has ovarian cancer.
7:08
[SPEAKER_02]: She's full of chemo.
7:09
[SPEAKER_02]: She's full of pain.
7:10
[SPEAKER_02]: He didn't want to break her heart by letting her know that he had sexual needs, but he couldn't wait for a year and a half.
7:16
[SPEAKER_02]: That sort of story kind of made sense to me.
7:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, would I have wanted to have been cheated on in that situation?
7:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, but I wouldn't want my partner to be adding salt to the wound, I guess.
7:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm suffering in that case.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that kind of case made sense to me.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, while you're dying.
7:33
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, why cheat?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You could just open up your relationship.
7:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Or you could just do the hard work of really asking yourself, what's going on here?
7:41
[SPEAKER_02]: When we want to have sex with someone else,
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[SPEAKER_02]: It could be that we want to have sex with someone else, or it could be just a defensive strategy to get away from some other emotion.
7:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not sure we can trust our desires just like we can't trust, you know, the lies that we tell ourselves are the justifications.
7:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We are complicated people and a lot of it is justification to make ourselves feel good about ourselves.
7:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So, why cheat, I think, in my personal morality, it's not about the sex, it's about the lying.
8:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it doesn't really go very well.
8:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't really appreciate being lied to.
8:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like it when I lie to myself when I start to realize like, whoa, I just, justified something, it doesn't make sense.
8:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I would rather see people, you know, do the bold move of make your primary relationship work or get out of it or decide you're gonna open up if you really need to be poly, but like be responsible to your partners because it's not fair when you're lying to them.
8:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You're putting them in health risk situations.
8:29
[SPEAKER_02]: You're splitting your energy and you're not being the best person that you can in my particular code of ethics.
8:34
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of also a power move for the other person.
8:37
[SPEAKER_02]: If you lie to someone, you don't give them the opportunity to exit or to address, you know, their role in the situation.
8:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think it's good behavior.
8:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
8:44
[SPEAKER_02]: That said, lots of people do it, and they don't realize it until after the fact.
8:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So in the end, we're all human, right?
8:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can say, don't do it.
8:52
[SPEAKER_02]: It's bad.
8:52
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't realize what?
8:53
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't realize that they're cheating.
8:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So where do you put the line for cheating?
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, right.
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're flirting with someone via email.
8:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you aware that you're flirting when you're flirting?
9:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I see.
9:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you aware when you're starting to fall in love with someone always do you know, like ahead of time, can you back up before that happens?
9:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Not everyone has complete control.
9:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So yes, people should be aware if you go to a hotel room with the intent to have sex that should be obvious, self-evident, but it isn't always.
9:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people tell themselves a miraculous lie as it's happening.
9:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's only afterwards that they're like, oh, drag, wow, that's unfair.
9:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You've brought up ethical non-monogamy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It have you seen any data like with ethical non-monogamy being more front and center like how has that impacted cheating or do you view those as completely separate things?
9:39
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not separate at all because you can still cheat inside of ethical non-monogamy, right?
9:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So although people tend to not use that language once they're inside of an open structure either ethical non-monogamy, poly or however they want to label themselves.
9:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Once you enter those kinds of structures, people tend to try to negotiate and renegotiate when there are boundary issues or conflicts or concerns, but it's really the same phenomena.
9:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So you set up a scenario with your partners.
10:01
[SPEAKER_02]: You decide how you're going to navigate things.
10:03
[SPEAKER_02]: They bring home some paramores, something gets complicated and you get upset.
10:07
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the same structure as feeling cheated on.
10:09
[SPEAKER_02]: But the language is different and the power dynamics are different because then all the parties feel like, okay, the next step is to renegotiate or to exit this structure.
10:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And the renegotiations sometimes are done very well, frankly, and sometimes they're very heated and upsetting just like they are with cheating scenarios.
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess just like for instance, with UA situation, my initial thought was like, why not just say, hey, I'd like to try being non-monogamous, like since that isn't open path nowadays.
10:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that correlates?
10:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, that's a great idea, but not everyone has the character structure to do that.
10:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Like not everybody is interested in leaning in.
10:46
[SPEAKER_02]: They're scared or sometimes they think that they're not terribly compulsive, you know, they feel like, okay, I'm going to be jealous.
10:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to hold on to my monogamous situation, but I want to have my cake and eat it to or whatever.
10:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's different kinds of things that are going on in people's heads.
10:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
11:00
[SPEAKER_02]: As they navigate these challenges.
11:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's also generationally different.
11:04
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm in my 50s.
11:05
[SPEAKER_02]: There aren't as many people in their 50s who are all about, you know, pauling whatever young people are in a very different situation, where it's really common for people to say, you know, I'm always open.
11:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you have to kind of navigate how do I build connection and security inside of a world where almost everyone is open to openness.
11:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Because back to what you were saying earlier, like, is it just an out for another reason?
11:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
11:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Or they want to build the relationship.
11:29
[SPEAKER_02]: All of your relationships should be building, frankly.
11:32
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the point.
11:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
11:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, whether it's open or closed, that's not the question.
11:35
[SPEAKER_02]: The question is, is, are you investing in it?
11:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Do people feel safe?
11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Do people feel secure?
11:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
11:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Is power distributed?
11:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, et cetera.
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Three-year research.
11:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm also curious to know.
11:44
[SPEAKER_01]: How does someone's environment and upbringing
11:46
[SPEAKER_01]: affect their views on cheating because I've seen both ways.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: My ex grew up in a culture in Taiwan where cheating is expected when you're a man who reaches a certain caliber of wealth.
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But I've also met other people who grew up in that culture and said, I would never cheat because I saw my dad cheating on my mom.
12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I would never bring that into a relationship.
12:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Which of the two do you see more of?
12:08
[SPEAKER_02]: it's not so black and white.
12:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, our society and our culture shapes us with values.
12:13
[SPEAKER_02]: So in France, for example, people cheat more often.
12:16
[SPEAKER_02]: There are different kinds of cultures where men have the rights and sometimes women too.
12:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's certainly influences us, but people who have experienced the pain of cheating are not more or less likely to cheat, but they're more likely to feel traumatized.
12:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the trauma can inform you either recreating that trauma.
12:34
[SPEAKER_02]: again, right?
12:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So doing it again, or you feeling really upset by it and trying very hard not to and sometimes falling into it anyway.
12:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So oftentimes with trauma, we would become identified with one or the other party, maybe with your mom, maybe with your dad, you know, it depends, maybe with other siblings, and then you end up acting out that role unconsciously.
12:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's pretty hard to say, but cheating affects children, period.
12:57
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no way to sugar coat that,
12:59
[SPEAKER_02]: your neighbors and your family.
13:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So if all of your friends start cheating, you are highly likely to think that it's more acceptable than you would if no one in your social circle would cheating.
13:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we are socially impacted by sexual behavior completely.
13:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And by moral behavior too, I would say.
13:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure.
13:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And what about self-esteem?
13:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how does that play in?
13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when I think of cheating, I think of like someone that needs a lot of validation.
13:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
13:22
[SPEAKER_00]: If they're not getting it from their partner or maybe in addition, like, is that an aspect that's correlated with, like, the likelihood to cheat at all?
13:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes and no, I think this would differ by gender and by sexual orientation.
13:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, in gay male circles, there's lots of openness and lots of expectations, and also with cuckolding.
13:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So the idea that it can be a self-esteem boost to see your partner with someone else who's high value.
13:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, look, look who you got to pull, you know, et cetera.
13:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But it can also be a self-esteem blow.
13:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, you don't want me.
13:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't do it for you.
13:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't satisfy you completely.
13:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this goes along with what kind of narratives we have in our mind.
14:01
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of young women, straight women are raised with the idea that if I'm pretty enough, if I'm interesting enough, you know, I'll take care of your needs sexually and you won't need to stray.
14:09
[SPEAKER_02]: That belief sets us up to have huge self-esteem issues if we're cheated on.
14:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It also men have a similar thing like, well, if I can get a lot of different women, if I can have a lot of sex,
14:19
[SPEAKER_02]: than I'm of high value.
14:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's these beliefs that are fueling that.
14:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to be that way.
14:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Your value has nothing to do with how many partners you have or how pretty you are any of that.
14:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's about the beliefs and then people kind of lean into the behavior to substantiate the beliefs.
14:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a disregard for the other person is what it is.
14:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I matter more, my needs matter more than anything that I promise to you because I'm not willing to be strong enough to exit or open up or do something to protect the situation.
14:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's infuriating for me to see that, societally, we have a spectrum of people who deserve to be cheated on, people who don't deserve to be cheated on.
14:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example,
14:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:55
[SPEAKER_01]: J-Lo has been cheated on a million times and people go, why was someone cheat on J-Lo?
14:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would someone cheat on Hallie Berry?
15:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you believe it's a mo cheat on them?
15:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But that statement implies that some people do deserve it.
15:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the beautiful celebrity.
15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Then, of course, of course, this person got cheated on.
15:12
[SPEAKER_01]: In your research, did you also find the same kind of qualifier in terms of like, who deserve to be cheated on?
15:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think what happened really is people's relationships went stale, like your partner told you, you know, that's the first ingredient.
15:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And the second ingredient is that they didn't know how to fix a stale relationship.
15:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So when your relationship goes stale, it's usually not because, you know, you were attracted to the person in the beginning.
15:34
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why you entered into a relationship, presumably, or else you're an idiot, right?
15:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're attracted to this person, you get involved with them, everything is great, and then it goes stale.
15:42
[SPEAKER_02]: That's normal.
15:43
[SPEAKER_02]: That happens all the time.
15:44
[SPEAKER_02]: The question is,
15:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
15:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And the easy way out is to just cheat the more morally appropriate way to deal with that is to either open your relationship or exit your relationship or make it better.
15:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And in my book, why not make it better?
15:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So ask yourself the question, talk to your partner and say, it's gone stale.
16:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why.
16:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the person who's about to cheat isn't coming forward very much.
16:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Isn't participating enough.
16:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Isn't being intimate enough.
16:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it needs to deepen.
16:11
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the usual course of events.
16:13
[SPEAKER_02]: So people aren't sharing their innermost thoughts because they think they're objectionable.
16:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they'd rather just cheat.
16:18
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just lazy, frankly.
16:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So you got to do the hard work in relationships.
16:21
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want them to continue and you want them to grow and you want them to deepen, you have to kind of continue to invest and put in.
16:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And that doesn't mean just date, night, and like, make yourself look nice.
16:30
[SPEAKER_02]: It usually means you have to deepen your inner part of the relationship.
16:34
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to start talking about hard things, right?
16:36
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to become intimate.
16:37
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to become interdependent.
16:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And that takes hard work and people tend to not know how to do that.
16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think like by reaction to all this was just like you don't give your partner any opportunity to step up at all.
16:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
16:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And to figure out a plan together when you're out is just a cheat.
16:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, not only is it your partner to step up, you don't step up.
16:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's like a grand stepping down person who's cheating.
17:01
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not stepping up.
17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the worst.
17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
17:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
17:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
17:04
[SPEAKER_00]: They're doing the opposite of stepping up.
17:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
17:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But I guess what I question is, are some people just not wired to be in long-term relationships or do you believe that anyone can if they are willing to do the work necessary?
17:18
[SPEAKER_02]: We're all wired to be in relationships.
17:20
[SPEAKER_02]: We come into this world, you know, ready to bond with our parents that are siblings and so on.
17:24
[SPEAKER_02]: that's just the human condition.
17:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know if I could say wired to this or that, but I think some people don't want to invest and sometimes you have to seek out the support of a therapist.
17:33
[SPEAKER_02]: If you don't know how to make your relationships work and you're doing harm to other people, it's probably wise that you think about that because it's only going to hurt you or others.
17:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you just stay single.
17:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, staying single also is in a good solution.
17:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Like part of, in my book, being a human is to, you know, love in whatever form that takes for you.
17:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to say that people all need to be in sexual relationships or in monogamous relationships at all, but being able to love and being able to produce in the world is a good thing.
17:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're blocked and can't do those two things, go get some help.
18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: My mom has this theory that everyone will cheat if given the right opportunity.
18:06
[SPEAKER_01]: She actually has this line.
18:07
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, there are no faithful men.
18:08
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just lazy men because the lazy men don't go out and seek these opportunities.
18:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, this is very extreme.
18:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But what are your thoughts on that?
18:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I often think about if I were in a relationship and I find myself in an environment where everyone I'm attracted to is coming on to me strong.
18:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And the temptations there, I don't know.
18:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't been in that opportunity before, but I'm not sure if I could hold my ground in that kind of situation.
18:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it depends on life phases and, you know, if you imagine yourself at 80 years old, or at 12 years old, or at 28 years old, there are different pressures in those situations and different kinds of commitments that you might have that would hold you back or keep you from string or would have you, but I think you're right.
18:48
[SPEAKER_02]: We all have the capacity somewhere deep in our psyche to be aggressive.
18:52
[SPEAKER_02]: to be sexual, to be hurtful, to do things that we would never expect given the right conditions.
18:58
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a subconscious.
18:59
[SPEAKER_02]: If you do all these experiments like all of the sort of social science experiments that happen in psychology departments where they ask people how would you behave in this situation.
19:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone says they'd be morally blah blah and none of them are.
19:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
19:09
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think your mom is on to something but I don't think it's any different for women than it is for men, right?
19:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do think the pressures are stronger when you're, you know, if you're in your 20s and you're unattached, you don't have kids, probably more likely to give way.
19:22
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of hormonal influences.
19:23
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot going on at that time period.
19:25
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have kids and you're in grandkids and you're 65, you're kind of been through menopause.
19:30
[SPEAKER_02]: You might be like, yeah, I'm not so interested, but maybe I'm wrong.
19:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
19:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not there yet.
19:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
19:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to think that not everyone would cheat if they have the opportunity.
19:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Not every opportunity, but everyone has the capacity given the right constellation of variables.
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's not just temptation.
19:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also like, are you unhappy?
19:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you feeling unfifilled?
19:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you lacking?
19:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's context.
19:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's totally context.
19:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.
19:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Never had an orgasm.
19:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you irritated with your partner?
19:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you frustrated in that relationship?
19:57
[SPEAKER_02]: All of that put together and then someone comes who's different and starts coming onto you and sells you some sort of interesting hopeful idea.
20:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you might.
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can see that.
20:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a reason why some people have guilt and then other people show no remorse when the cheating?
20:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a problem.
20:13
[SPEAKER_02]: The people who show no remorse are really entitled and very scary.
20:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's a piece of personality that is problematic.
20:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's another level of mental illness to that, right?
20:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, to do harm to someone and take pleasure in that or to do harm to someone and show no remorse, your ex may have cheated and might feel justified in doing that, but he should at the very least recognize, I lied to you, and that's not okay.
20:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if it's something that's human, it's problematic, right?
20:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it not?
20:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it didn't give you the chance to say I don't want to be in this relationship anymore with all the cards on the table.
20:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it's at the level of entitlement.
20:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you guys entered into a relationship where you agreed that he could cheat and not tell you and you'd be okay with that.
20:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, did you agree to that?
20:58
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
20:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you said he's from Taiwan, but no, you didn't agree to that.
21:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, that seems to me like it erases your personhood, which I think is problematic.
21:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And I agree.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So was it true, once a cheater always a cheater?
21:09
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
21:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that a true statement?
21:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
21:11
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, everybody can change, right?
21:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And lots of people cheat in college, you know, you're sort of lots of people do things when they're very young and don't understand how relationships work and then we develop.
21:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think we could say that once a cheater always a cheater, once a smoker, always a smoker.
21:25
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a very profound question because I think, like you said, you know, depending on life stage, when you're younger and you cheated, maybe that's something like, okay, you are experimenting.
21:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you find out in early dating, that someone has cheated later in life in their 30s and 40s, is that a red flag that should be addressed?
21:42
[SPEAKER_02]: If they cheat in every single relationship and somebody's had five marriages or something, yeah, you pretty much got to expect that you're the next in the series, but I think it depends.
21:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that person getting help?
21:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they changing?
21:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they reflecting on it?
21:54
[SPEAKER_02]: What do they think about their own actions?
21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It matters more not what they did, but what they think about what they did.
22:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
22:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So with there are any questions that you would recommend like asking someone early on to understand their stance of cheating or let's say they have cheated and they feel like they've grown from it.
22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how could you approach that?
22:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't ask.
22:15
[SPEAKER_02]: about cheating.
22:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I would figure out how they fight how they argue.
22:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me like everyone always says oh we met and we had this great relationship and we you know did all these fantastic things we went on a yacht and we went on a trip and we did all the other whatever whatever and he's so wonderful I know he's great no you don't fight with him fight with him hard like really argue truthfully directly about something don't pick a fight but wait until you see your first argument
22:40
[SPEAKER_02]: and see, can he tolerate or she tolerate difficult kind of conflicts?
22:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Can they apologize?
22:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Can they face hard things with you?
22:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Can they be flexible, negotiate with you?
22:51
[SPEAKER_02]: That tells you more about can you solve problems because then when it gets stale, what's likely to happen is you're gonna have hard conversations and you're gonna get through it.
22:59
[SPEAKER_02]: That's your ticket.
23:00
[SPEAKER_02]: If you can't have the hard conversations and you can't do anything, it's not gonna stay perfect.
23:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It never is, it never was.
23:06
[SPEAKER_02]: No relationship does.
23:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So you might as well abandon the Cinderella fantasy that it's going to be, you know, Prince and Princess, and it's going to be fabulous, and we're going to be able to secure some sort of imagination of truth and recognize can this person have a hard conversation with me?
23:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And are they invested in doing that over and over and over again?
23:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And do they care about me as a person?
23:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Not as a perfect girlfriend or a perfect wife or as a beautiful person or as a sex partner.
23:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they care about my personhood?
23:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, do they share?
23:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Well.
23:34
[SPEAKER_02]: which sounds silly.
23:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, if I'm picky about something, even if it's not their preference, or they willing to just kind of go along with that, or are they willing to argue with me about it to find some kind of compromise, then you know you're with somebody who's going to be able to go for the long haul.
23:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And that doesn't mean monogamy, necessarily.
23:48
[SPEAKER_02]: That could mean, right, open, too.
23:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that might be one of the hard conversations.
23:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
23:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
23:53
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you can't fight, then it's over.
23:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And by fight, I mean, fight constructively.
23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a very important point for me to realize too because I used to think if you can discuss cheating and infidelity early on a relationship, then you can gauge someone's opinion about matter.
24:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But I realize if someone's a cheater, they're prolific liar as well.
24:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Whenever you're asking someone about their moral stance, they're always going to take the high road.
24:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But in this question of how they handle conflict, there is no moral ground for you to
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wouldn't ask them how they handle conflict.
24:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I would have a conflict with them right.
24:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So you ask someone how they handle conflict.
24:31
[SPEAKER_02]: They say, oh, I handle it.
24:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm, you know, I'm fair.
24:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm this and I'm not like, well, let's see what happens when we're really arguing.
24:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So you only know once you start doing it.
24:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they scream?
24:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they threaten you?
24:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they avoid?
24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they belittle you or gaslight you?
24:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are really problematic stances.
24:45
[SPEAKER_02]: But many cheaters also avoid conflict and that's the whole point is everything goes along well and then when it starts to be hard, they're like, oh, I can't handle that so then they start to withdraw a little bit and then some of their libidinal energy that excitement, that creativity, that sexuality starts going elsewhere because they can't invest it in you because there's a conflict that they can't deal with right.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you were suspecting someone was cheating, what's the best way to approach that topic?
25:11
[SPEAKER_02]: going through their phone or going through their computer or their stuff is not the best way.
25:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Mostly because you'll see things that you don't want to see and that you can't unsee.
25:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And you'll see the split off version of them.
25:24
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll see what they're doing with this other person and it will be hurtful to you.
25:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And only in the last 30 years have we had access to these kinds of things where you can actually see it as painful.
25:34
[SPEAKER_02]: What I would do is I would just say, hey, you know, I want to have a hard conversation with you.
25:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel suspicious, you know, you can't talk me out of it.
25:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't try to say no, no, it's not happening.
25:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel suspicious and I feel distant from you.
25:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know what's going to bring us close together, but I have some concerns about our relationship.
25:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know what we need to do.
25:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we need to go to therapy.
25:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we need to have some hard conversations.
25:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to be easily dissuaded from this position, but I really want to feel closer to you and I don't know how we can get there.
25:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And then start to open up the conflicts that are probably underneath the surface.
26:03
[SPEAKER_02]: like a cystic acne or something that you have to kind of exfoliate and then see what's there.
26:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that sounds really ideal.
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: But in my scenario, I feel like if I went to that which I did at a conversation about him, we were in couples therapy for six months.
26:18
[SPEAKER_01]: While this was all happening and I did have a conversation about feeling that distance and wanting to understand how we can
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: reaction to that was let's keep going to therapy.
26:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel blessed that I saw the messages as hurtful as they were.
26:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It offered a finality to what I was suspecting.
26:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also understand your point of view that it's not the best way to address the situation.
26:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it offered a finality, did the couple's therapist recognize that you guys were feeling distant?
26:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Were they helpful?
26:49
[SPEAKER_01]: No, he had lied to everyone.
26:51
[SPEAKER_01]: We were in pretty marital counseling doing well.
26:54
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, therapists is like, you guys are making a lot of progress.
26:58
[SPEAKER_01]: This is working out really well.
26:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
26:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But it just shows how much he was lying, not just to us, but to himself too.
27:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, ideally, a couple therapists would be able to sense the distance and participate with that, but it sounds like you couldn't see it.
27:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like until you really saw it.
27:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes that has to happen for sure.
27:14
[SPEAKER_02]: How disappointing must have been crushing.
27:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think, like you said, there are other measures to take before you go on the phone in the computer, which is basically what we're doing at the Couples Counseling.
27:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess this is a last straw.
27:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It had to get to that in my situation.
27:28
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are many other steps before that.
27:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, before you saw those messages during the six months, the couples therapist was saying that things were going well.
27:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you feel like it was going well?
27:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought so.
27:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought we were making progress.
27:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh wow.
27:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So you were really, really lied to.
27:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:42
[SPEAKER_02]: That can happen.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess like if you approach someone so you don't go down the route of looking through messages and you approach someone they just tell you know nothing's going on like how do you know do you just like listen to that instinct still or I could see someone getting very lost in that process.
28:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I can't say definitively how you know, I mean, I think it's trust.
28:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there are people who are really seductive and really able to lie incredibly well.
28:10
[SPEAKER_02]: But most people aren't.
28:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, most people, you can feel it.
28:13
[SPEAKER_02]: You can feel the trust.
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:15
[SPEAKER_02]: You can feel a connection.
28:16
[SPEAKER_02]: You can see where they are, you know, and they're not hiding anything.
28:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It's clear that they don't have time to really be right in a serious, you know, cheating relationship.
28:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is unusual what you experienced.
28:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But there was clearly an instinct you had still to check, right?
28:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it wasn't like that came out of nowhere.
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So there was some instinct.
28:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Correct, part of it.
28:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That week.
28:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
28:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a shift in energy and behavior just that week.
28:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Julie was along for the ride the whole time.
28:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So I saw the immediate.
28:43
[SPEAKER_01]: flip of the switch.
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: She was like, hmm, something's off.
28:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's a good thing.
28:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if you see strange behavior, that can be, you know, indicative of an addiction or, you know, cheating or something is wrong.
28:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a secret.
28:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And most people can figure that out.
28:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it doesn't matter whether they're cheating or they're using drugs or they're gambling or they're something else going on.
29:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is still a split and a lie and some kind of betrayal.
29:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
29:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Same format, same structure.
29:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And you want to be on the lookout for that stuff.
29:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So what do you do if you are feeling tempted, but you don't want to cheat?
29:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like outside of therapy, that's clearly one path.
29:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like is there anything else?
29:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is that really the silver bullet there?
29:24
[SPEAKER_02]: What's so bad about feeling tempted and not acting on it?
29:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think you just sit in the temptation.
29:29
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to kill you.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
29:31
[SPEAKER_02]: There's that.
29:31
[SPEAKER_02]: There's finding other outlets for it.
29:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, it's easy to fall in love with all different kinds of people.
29:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Or to want to have sex with all different kinds of people.
29:38
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's not super practical.
29:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So what do you do to channel all of that energy into artistic endeavors or other kinds of activities or into sex with your partner that you can be involved with or flirting, harmless flirting so that it doesn't develop or whatever it is, dancing something, be able to channel it.
29:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also really hard to know where the line is to like how far can you go before you start to tip into something that you would regret.
30:03
[SPEAKER_02]: That's hard to gauge for some people.
30:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think some healthy flirting is necessary, just to be social and have a few min experience, but also the line is drawn between what you and your partner decide to be the line.
30:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I do wonder if a lot of this is a gendered experience because I think for him telling me, I couldn't resist the commons.
30:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I scoffed at that because I was like, do you know it's like to be a woman where we've always been in a position of being hit on?
30:31
[SPEAKER_01]: But we were able to suppress it and also deal with that.
30:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But for men, maybe this is a new thing and that's why it was just so tempting, like, oh, being hit on as a man.
30:40
[SPEAKER_01]: A women have, this is a novel for us, I guess.
30:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think being hit on is not the issue.
30:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Some people have control and some people don't have control.
30:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that control is way upstream.
30:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not in the moment of being hit on and the temptation.
30:54
[SPEAKER_02]: After you've already decided that your relationship is stale that you don't want to work on it and you're feeling a little hopeless about something.
31:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
31:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And you project some sort of fantasy idea onto the person who's coming on to you.
31:05
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't actually know this person.
31:06
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're not going to be some miraculous
31:10
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a whole lot that goes into that setup.
31:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not the actual temptation.
31:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We can resist our sexual urges, our bodies are designed so that we can masturbate.
31:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't buy that there's some sort of issue that anybody has waiting for contact.
31:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's ridiculous.
31:24
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a bunch of things that go into people feeling exquisitely tempted in those moments.
31:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And lying to themselves and making sure that they can act out is because they don't recognize all the other contextual things that lead up to it.
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've been cheated on, it feels like it might be difficult to trust again, especially if you had a situation that came out of nowhere totally blindsided.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: What are some steps that you can take in your recovery to trust again?
31:49
[SPEAKER_02]: again go to therapy, work through the betrayal and the anger and the resentment and the upset about that and then try really hard to go slowly in terms of the commitment steps so that you can build trust with your next partner or partners.
32:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't try to rush into anything.
32:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Take it slowly, make sure that other people are willing to treat you well.
32:09
[SPEAKER_02]: That requires boundaries saying no when things aren't going well, giving feedback, having those hard conversations and those conflicts
32:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's be clear.
32:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the person who cheats, but the person who is cheated on also needs to make sure that they have the conflicts and set boundaries on our clear.
32:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes both parties avoid the conflict and the cheater just sort of takes it to another level.
32:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, if like certain sederios though, let's say you were totally blindsided and you didn't see this coming.
32:36
[SPEAKER_00]: The Cadya faith that you're dark of like misjudged again in the next person.
32:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how do you move it off of, I chose wrong to this is something that happened to me.
32:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not gonna happen again as a sererolate.
32:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think that's true with all traumas, right?
32:51
[SPEAKER_02]: We always have to move off of this happen to me, it's not going to happen again.
32:55
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I recover?
32:56
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I open my heart?
32:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more important to open your heart and be open-hearted on goingly than it is to be preventing this thing happening again.
33:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to happen forever.
33:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Not everyone is bad.
33:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, it's a lesson to you that if you've been blindsided, you know, you may be weren't paying attention.
33:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, or maybe you had some fantasies yourself that need to get broken.
33:15
[SPEAKER_02]: The question is, is like, what do you do moving forward to work differently in your relationships, to lean into conflicts, or to not have any fantasies about how this is going to go?
33:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And to be brave, how do you do that?
33:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what the lesson is, is do that anyway.
33:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though it could happen again, but highly unlikely and open your heart anyway.
33:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, the first thought I had when this happened was, he's out of my life.
33:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I say this all time.
33:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I mentally murdered him.
33:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It's done.
33:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I watch the new sex in the city and just like that, fucking Aiden's back in the picture after Carrie cheated on him, you know, with big and then she ends up marrying a big and she comes back to Aiden after her husband dies.
33:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it's infuriating for me that Aiden has come back under what circumstance is reconciliation possible after
34:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I could answer that.
34:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it's up to the people involved, right?
34:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And whether or not people change, I mean, people can change and grow.
34:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes people just go round after round of hurting each other.
34:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to say.
34:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Under what circumstances I think, you know, it's up to each person to decide what they want to do with their lives.
34:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully we learn and grow and only reconcile if we feel like there's something new there.
34:23
[SPEAKER_02]: But I can't say that everybody does that.
34:25
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the line of reconciling because you either don't believe you can do better or you have this trauma bond with this person versus they sincerely apologize and made the biggest mistake in their life and will never do this again.
34:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how do you rectify between the two and like how do you know when you're falling into one camp or the other?
34:46
[SPEAKER_02]: action speaks greater than words.
34:48
[SPEAKER_02]: If I were someone in that position, and I felt pulled to get back into a relationship with someone who cheated on me, I think I would go slowly.
34:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I would say, you know, let's hang out.
34:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's see where this goes.
34:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's kind of see what's changed.
35:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would be wondering a great deal about why I was still interested in this person.
35:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would be wondering a great deal about our conflicts.
35:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would be wondering a great deal about what has changed the whole way.
35:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Even while I was enjoying it, if I was enjoying it.
35:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would kind of keep one foot out and one foot in while I sort of asked myself those questions.
35:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they have to demonstrate the change.
35:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, I think we should say something about violence here.
35:25
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the classic intimate partner violence cycle, people real you in, and then, you know, shower you with flowers and like all this stuff, and then they become violent again.
35:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I think this has that same kind of cyclical thing where if they cheat, they could like real you in with, oh, it'll be better this time.
35:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll take you on this trip and we're going to do all this stuff and a lot of
35:45
[SPEAKER_02]: going to get married is going to be great.
35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's this like, oh, I'm bored and I'm going to cheat again.
35:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to kind of see it as, is it a violent cycle?
35:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you in that same kind of power struggle with this person?
35:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Or they're getting off on reeling you in and spitting you out, which is why I would probably go slowly and see like, what really is this?
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I trust myself and my own thinking if I'm feeling pulled to go back with them?
36:08
[SPEAKER_00]: like the scoping slowly because there's no like rule that you have to just jump into the same relationship that you once had.
36:15
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
36:15
[SPEAKER_00]: First and foremost, you have to honor yourself, it.
36:18
[SPEAKER_00]: See what feels right.
36:19
[SPEAKER_01]: In your research, what has been the most surprising thing you found?
36:23
[SPEAKER_02]: The most surprising thing is the moment that the people cross the line, they really don't realize they're crossing the line.
36:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And at that moment, it's further up from the actual sex.
36:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's wild to me too.
36:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
36:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And there is this danger zone.
36:41
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not in the flirting or anything, but it's like there's some constellation of variables that come together, some fantasies and some behaviors that kind of all lock in.
36:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And then suddenly there is like a tractor beam.
36:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's wild to me.
36:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And these are good people who are not intending to cheat.
36:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was interesting.
36:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And then from your research, like, is there any long-term effects on someone who's been cheated on?
37:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And then also maybe follow up as if you have been the cheater.
37:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's long term effects altogether.
37:09
[SPEAKER_02]: So the people who've been cheated on, you're right about the risk of closing your heart off and being kind of bitter for a while, you know, not moving through that grief and then ending up somewhere where you can be open again.
37:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the main risk.
37:20
[SPEAKER_02]: The risk for the person who is the cheater is that they're learning that they can just not face conflict.
37:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And they feel like I got away with something.
37:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I can just not face conflict.
37:28
[SPEAKER_02]: But also there's guilt, deep down, even if they don't feel it directly, there's guilt.
37:32
[SPEAKER_02]: They know that they've hurt someone and they have to hide from themselves.
37:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's some ways in which people can hide from themselves or close up after these kinds of situations can be really painful.
37:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And those sometimes, if they don't get help, they don't work it through themselves, it can stay for a long time in that way.
37:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this has been such an interesting conversation.
37:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have so many takeaways.
37:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the first one that blew by mind is just like, in today's world, it's not the hetero man that you think about.
37:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it can be anyone given the circumstance.
38:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think that means that everyone needs to be suspecting that their partner is cheating at all times, but it does open up that it's not always the people we think it's going to be.
38:11
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
38:11
[SPEAKER_00]: the other big takeaway I had to is just actions speak louder than words like we really need to see what people are doing like I agree like we can't just ask someone how they handle conflict or if they're a good communicator of course they're going to say yes but really being in that sense of conflict we've heard this from other podcasts too of what's the indicator of a healthy
38:36
[SPEAKER_00]: would have thought that's not what you go to.
38:38
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do believe like how you do conflict is so important.
38:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reality is that might not be like a year, two years, five years into a relationship.
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the real conflict.
38:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think there's a distinction.
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Of different types of conflict that being said like even early fights or disagreements can give a window into someone how they are that being said You can never fully predict it because someone might do all the things quote unquote right and still might do this But that also doesn't mean that to lose faith and I know easier said than done But just because this happened to you doesn't mean it's an indication of you in any way
39:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, there's room to reflect in words on the relationship and if there was something you could change not to say that you're like The reason it happened, but just because the only person you can control is yourself No, no, no, no, but I don't want people to walk away like scared or like feeling like they can never love again Because I don't believe that's what anyone here is saying
39:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I want to say a word about internet cheating or like email cheating or you know texting or whatever that also happened people have whole affairs that never have any touching at all.
39:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and aren't even like sexting necessarily they're like yeah real romantic relationships flirting online.
39:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and those are just as dangerous and damaging in so far as they take away the attention to somewhere else.
40:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
40:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're really easy to start because it's really easy to send a text to someone without your partner noticing.
40:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
40:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And to get that little dopamine hit back of like, oh, someone thinks I'm special.
40:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so immediate.
40:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of us do that.
40:16
[SPEAKER_02]: We do it with friends.
40:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, let me get some feedback from my friend that my partner doesn't know about and let me kind of
40:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, put down my partner a little bit.
40:23
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to keep our eye on how we do that because that's a way of throwing our partner under the bus or ignoring our partner ignoring conflicts and putting them out to the side and I think those can turn into affairs pretty easily.
40:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a really good point because I think at the foundation of cheating to it's this feeling like someone that you thought was in it with you is now like living this double life like I think that's a part that's.
40:47
[SPEAKER_00]: very hard to get your head around, especially if you're going to bed every night, laying down next to them, and they're doing all this other stuff on the side, and they're a whole different person.
40:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It almost feels like very disjointed.
41:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes it hard to trust.
41:01
[SPEAKER_02]: But then why are they not talking to you about what they're talking to this other person about, right?
41:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's the main question.
41:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Is why are they not turning to you?
41:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you unavailable?
41:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you close to off?
41:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you, right?
41:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Judgmental and meaning critical?
41:13
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, is that happening or are they having hard time coming forward?
41:16
[SPEAKER_02]: with all of that material, they scared, like, what is that?
41:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the conflict that I mean, it's not just fighting about, I want to watch this show you want to watch that show.
41:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's I'm having inhibited behavior, I can't approach you, and you can't receive me, so therefore I'm going to split it off and go outside the relationship to someone who can.
41:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we have to make sure I'm receiving my partner, am I giving what I need, am I saying what's on my mind?
41:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Or am I talking to other people about it instead?
41:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I am, I better watch that.
41:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's a slippery slope, right?
41:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you develop more intimacy if you talk to other people about what you're thinking about.
41:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You develop it with them, not with your partner.
41:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Which reminds me, I don't know if this is ever possible.
41:52
[SPEAKER_01]: If anybody's ever attempted this.
41:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But a relationship based on radical honesty and transparency, where you give each other full access to all of your devices,
42:03
[SPEAKER_01]: and just leave it all out there.
42:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I think teenagers are doing that now there.
42:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I commend you.
42:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well teenagers are doing this.
42:08
[SPEAKER_02]: They're saying like, and they're very first, you know, instead of it's like, in my day, you should be like, will you go with me, will you be my girlfriend, you know, whatever?
42:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's, will you give me your passwords as an act of promise?
42:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, good near passwords because then I know, and, you know, that's kind of wild, right?
42:24
[SPEAKER_02]: You need your locker combination and your passwords.
42:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that borders on intimate partner violence, too.
42:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I just roll you, right?
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know about that.
42:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I think people can have areas of privacy.
42:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Your fantasy life can be private.
42:37
[SPEAKER_02]: We are always going to have some privacy.
42:39
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't share everything with someone.
42:40
[SPEAKER_02]: But if somebody's hiding their devices, that would make me feel a little suspicious.
42:44
[SPEAKER_02]: If they slam down their computer every time you walk into the room, that's weird.
42:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You also have to ask yourself, like, is that the relationship I want to be constantly checking someone's devices?
42:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Like for me, I know that is not it at all.
42:56
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm a sex therapist.
42:57
[SPEAKER_02]: All the things that I've had to search for information online.
43:01
[SPEAKER_02]: If my partner looks through my browser history, they'd be really confused.
43:05
[SPEAKER_02]: because I'm searching stuff that has to do with client material and like other kinds of things.
43:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think our browser histories are who we are.
43:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think that's important.
43:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But you're on to something.
43:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, again, is someone able to share with you.
43:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I just talked with someone so and let me just forward this to you.
43:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if they're pretty transparent and talkative about what they're doing online, that's a pretty good sign.
43:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, interesting.
43:27
[SPEAKER_01]: My major takeaway is also conflict.
43:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that the core of all of our decisions and cheating is just conflict manifested into a decision and into an action.
43:37
[SPEAKER_01]: My other big takeaway is, and I read this a while ago, when people reach for that glass of wine when they get home from work.
43:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Before reaching for the wine you should ask for why, what is causing you to reach for that wine?
43:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you are so stressed, you need to decompress.
43:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's the same thing.
43:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like before you give into that temptation of cheating.
43:56
[SPEAKER_01]: The first is stepping back and asking why?
43:58
[SPEAKER_01]: What is causing me to be interested and tempted by this scenario?
44:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And we often, in this culture, we reach for the pain meds.
44:07
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we reach for the band aid solutions, but we don't address what is the root of the issue.
44:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see that now so clearly that even in my last relationship, I guess we really weren't addressing the root of the issue.
44:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We were using therapy as a band aid solution.
44:23
[SPEAKER_01]: They're probably much deeper issues that we never even scratch the surface on.
44:27
[SPEAKER_01]: thinking that we were doing our thing, you know, we're in therapy.
44:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We do check-ins every week.
44:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It was enough, but for that intimacy to grow and for the deepening of the relationship to happen, really have to have the hard conversations.
44:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's really tough to do, really tough to do.
44:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love your suggestion of seeing how someone reacts to the hard of a relationship, the conflicts, the conversations, the topics that make people really uncomfortable.
44:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not to say like you shouldn't do check-ins and go to therapy, but I also feel like we have to recognize like when are these going through the motions versus actually, you know, getting there.
45:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes it's easy to be like, oh, we're checking all the boxes instead of going deeper.
45:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when couples come to me and there's been an infidelity.
45:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I usually tell them straight away.
45:15
[SPEAKER_02]: We can't trust either of you right now.
45:18
[SPEAKER_02]: and you should not trust each other while we're working through this process because something happened that neither of you really understands why it happened and we're only going to understand why it happened once we understand what your conflicts are.
45:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I try to help them go after the conflicts, knowing that there were lies and what are the lies and the fantasies that made possible this infidelity and what are the conflicts that we haven't talked about and that usually
45:43
[SPEAKER_02]: roll up their sleeves and get into the mix.
45:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's premature sometimes to go into and I'm not saying that you know my colleagues work with you and your partner was bad, but I think an infidelity is a call to go deep and to go into the messiness rather than to paper it over with.
45:59
[SPEAKER_02]: apology and promise because that feels too premature.
46:03
[SPEAKER_02]: There's something that happened and it needs to be addressed.
46:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
46:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Also it gets the person out of victim mode.
46:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like, you know, wanting the why me, why do this happen to be?
46:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Why did you do this to me?
46:14
[SPEAKER_01]: This is more of a wee problem now.
46:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and sometimes they need to do individual things, like, one person needs to grieve and the other person needs to really question, like, what am I doing?
46:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Why am I doing this?
46:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Why wasn't I brave enough to open up my relationship or drop it?
46:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's a lot of questions that they each need to engage individually and maybe not together and couples therapy.
46:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So, at the end of it, is it always a wee shared responsibility, or are there some situations where, you know, this person is just going to do this to everyone?
46:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we could easily say that any dynamic that happens between two people isn't a wee, which is not to say that you blame the other person, you know, there's perhaps more problematic things that are going on for the person who cheats, than the person who is cheated on, but they co-created that scenario.
46:56
[SPEAKER_02]: They both
46:56
[SPEAKER_02]: co-created that the conflicts were dealt with.
46:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the person who was cheated on didn't have the information to know what the conflicts were because the person wasn't speaking about them.
47:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're kind of not quite as culpable, but it's co-created for sure.
47:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
47:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, co-dependency or being too nice or being too kind or being too generous, not getting angry, you know, whatever those things are that put the whole thing in place.
47:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful.
47:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for sharing all of your learnings, Dr. Zapian.
47:20
[SPEAKER_01]: How can people find out more about you and the research you've done?
47:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I wrote a book called Clinical Treatment Directions for Infidelity.
47:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It's available on Amazon.
47:29
[SPEAKER_02]: They can find me on the web just Google Nicole Zapian.
47:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a clinical project with two LCA.
47:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Zapian Z is in zebra.
47:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
47:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I wrote a book about ethics.
47:38
[SPEAKER_02]: There's some stuff about me out there.
47:40
[SPEAKER_00]: great and we'll link it all in the bio too.
47:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And you do work with couples and individuals as well.
47:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I do and I also do psychoanalysis.
47:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I started a podcast recently called technology in the mind, which is all about how we can't think clearly as we engage with technology, which has a dotted line to what we're talking about because I think it's kind of tempting and can cause us to behave in ways that aren't super rational or kind to others.
48:02
[SPEAKER_00]: We might need you back on that topic someday.
48:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Fantastic.
48:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again, Dr. Zapian, for all of our listeners.
48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in.
48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't miss an episode.
48:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.