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Unmuted Rooms and Judgement-Free Listening with Erin Snow · Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes

• 0:00
  Podcast Intro/Outro: All right, gang. Here's to nights that turn into mornings and friends that turn into family. Cheers. Hello, hello, and welcome to the Friendship IRL podcast. I'm your host, Alex Alexander. Each week we talk about what is working(and what is not) in our friendships, community and connections. Have you ever wished you could sit down and have a conversation about what is really going on in your friendships? Well, you found your people. Join us as we dive into real life stories and explore new ways to approach these connections. Together, we're reimagining the rules of friendship
• 0:52
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: What would you do if you realized that the friend group you had been showing up for wasn't really showing up for you, not in a dramatic, obvious way, not a big fight, not a single moment you could pinpoint just this slow, quiet realization that you had been shrinking yourself for years, editing out the parts of you that didn't fit in the group, being the one who listened always will never really being heard, and then you walked away from all of it.
• 1:29
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: That's what today's guest did, and I know that for a lot of you listening, that probably sounds either terrifying or impossible or amazing, maybe you're ready, maybe you're ready to take the leap, but I think people fall definitely on one end of the spectrum. Here today, I'm talking with Erin Snow. Erin is a Professional Listener and the founder of The Unmuted Room, a first of its kind, confidential listening space built on one radical premise, being truly heard is not a luxury, it is a necessity for anyone carrying more than they can say out loud.
• 2:16
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Erin spent 17 years as a trauma informed legal advocate for survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking. She knew better than most what it costs to have nowhere safe to say what is true, and then when she went through her own divorce and found herself completely without a support system, she looked for a space like The Unmuted Room, and couldn't find one, so she built it. Like all the best women do, can't find it, build it. I love it. But before we get there, we're going back to the beginning, to the friend group, to the divorce no one in her life saw coming. To the moment Erin realized she had been so busy being everyone else's person that she had never let anyone be hers. This one is going to hit, I know it. So let's dive in.
• 3:20
  Alex Alexander: Hi, Erin, welcome to the Friendship IRL Podcast.
• 3:24
  Erin Snow: I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
• 3:27
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I'm so excited to hang out today and honestly talk about your brave journey. You have been on quite a friendship journey. When we very first talked something we're gonna get into the episode today was you telling me that, like, you kind of burnt it all down and started over. I was like, that's so brave. So I'm really excited that you're here to share your story today.
• 3:53
  Erin Snow: Thank you. Yeah, scary. And I guess I'll take brave. I'll take it.
• 3:58
  Alex Alexander: I mean, does it feel good on the other side?
• 3:59
  Alex Alexander: Does it feel better now?
• 4:01
  Unknown: Yeah, you know what?
• 4:02
  Unknown: And I think what I learned from it is it took me a really long time to get to that point of, like you said, burning it down.
• 4:09
  Unknown: And now I'm like, Hmm, I have less of a tolerance, or less of a I'm just like, All right, well, I'm gonna just keep burning it down. Whatever's not working, let's burn it down.
• 4:19
  Unknown: Start from scratch, do over I guess that's just the era I'm stepping into
• 4:25
  Alex Alexander: well, but that kind of goes to something I talk about all the time, which is this idea that, like so often, what holds us back is just not knowing if we can do it. And once you know you can do it, once you like, have that trust in yourself, I think you're a lot more likely, for example, if every single one of my friends just disappeared, that would be sad. I love my friends. I have built a pretty solid support system, but I also know I could do it again. Per se. I know I could put myself out there and build some really great relationships that support me and my life and are. Fun and exciting. And it sounds like you kind of feel the same way.
• 5:04
  Alex Alexander: Yes, and learning stuff, you know, if you had to do it, you hope you don't have to, but if you had to do it, like, the next time around, like, Hey, what are the lessons that I learned from round one, and how do I move that into round two? So I don't, you know, make some of those mistakes again, or maybe I handle this differently.
• 5:25
  Alex Alexander: Yes, well, that's what we're going to talk about today. So maybe we go back and kind of like, set the stage for everyone. I mean, where is a good place to start? Like, maybe before your divorce?
• 5:37
  Erin Snow: Sure, yep, we can, yeah. So let's just jump right now. So my ex husband and I, we got together when we were in college, right?
• 5:48
  Alex Alexander: Me and my husband too?
• 5:50
  Unknown: Yeah, very young. I actually thought he was older than me, but he was a year behind me. So, you know, we got married in July. He graduated in May, and we got married in July of 2004 and you know, so we were essentially growing up together, right? And figuring things out immediately, jumping into work, having kids together, two amazing kids, and just realizing that our lives were taking completely different paths. We weren't connecting at all. I did find out that he had cheated on me multiple times. And you know, I'm sure a lot of people are thinking, Oh, okay, so you got divorced. Then, no, no, I didn't do that. I was like, let's buy another house.
• 6:38
  Alex Alexander: Let's focus somewhere else.
• 6:40
  Erin Snow: Okay, yeah, let's buy another house, maybe, if we have this new life, new neighborhood, the kids had moved schools. I was like, getting friendly with the neighbors, who are also parents of kids at school and their grades. So I'm like, This is great. I have an outlet. I have friends. I didn't have this before. So cool. We're going to keep going. But you know, it didn't change the dynamics of our relationship. It created more opportunities for me to go out, for me to have a friend group, essentially, because I hadn't had that really. It was just like, go to work, take care of kids, rinse and repeat. And so this felt really good. So when things were just things were not getting better, therapy was not helping. That's probably on me to some extent, because I was turned off to it. I was turned off to doing the work. I was like, this is already just not gonna happen. So, yeah, I didn't want to lose my friends and so and they thought we were perfect, the perfect couple, like everything was great. I always listened. I was the listener in the group, which makes sense. But I didn't share really a whole heck of a lot about myself at all, really. So when I did decide I'm going to make the divorce public, that we've made this decision public, I'm not going to give all the reasons. And so people were surprised, and they didn't understand it
• 8:08
  Alex Alexander: well, especially because they probably thought, you guys are doing great, right?
• 8:12
  Alex Alexander: Things looked good on the surface.
• 8:14
  Erin Snow: Enough, exactly, exactly. And there were a lot of questions. And, you know, Did he cheat on you? I didn't want to say. I didn't want to say because I didn't want to lose my friends. I didn't want my kids to lose their friends. I was the first one in the group that was considering a divorce. And let me tell you, if you're in a friend group and no one has in your friend group has been divorced, yet, people will treat you like you're a leper and a disease that's going to spread.
• 8:42
  Erin Snow: And this was like around COVID, right? So it was like, Oh my gosh, that I felt like I was the virus that was spreading around that nobody wanted and was deathly afraid of. That's what it was like. And so, yeah, everybody was like, Well, this must have happened. This must have happened. This must have happened. And I denied it because I didn't want to be judged and I didn't want to lose that friend group. I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to mess it up. So they didn't understand. We just aren't working. We're growing apart like that wasn't an acceptable answer, and that was really hard, because I lost friends because I was protecting him.
• 9:20
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious. So right, like, there's a little bit of give and take. I guess you were giving a lot of listening. How do you feel? Like you were showing up in those friendships?
• 9:32
  Alex Alexander: Like, were you trying to overcompensate? I guess that's what I'm trying to get at. Were you doing other things, or did people just, like, not care?
• 9:39
  Alex Alexander: That is my own personal curiosity.
• 10:49
  Erin Snow: I think people who have not had somebody to listen to them, and then suddenly you have that person. It feels really good to just keep talking about to them, and it's very easy to kind of, there's not a whole. Lot of give and take, if you've never had that before, if you've never had the give and take, and suddenly you have somebody who's curious and wants to know everything and wants to help you solve things and is available. That feels really good. And that's what I was for my friends. And I was used to that, because I've always kind of played that role, and I was okay with it. I didn't realize that I could have used an outlet like that. I was doing it in my work at the time, I was doing it for my friends. I was happy to do it. I felt like that's where I added value,
• 11:40
  Alex Alexander: for sure. I mean, you did, I'm positive,
• 11:43
  Unknown: yeah, that's how I felt, like I was contributing, because I wasn't the mom Who baked everything. I was a working mom. I didn't cook things from scratch. I got a lot of crap for that, you know, I had the frozen Eggos, and I wasn't putting out like this feast in the mornings or, you know, so I felt like I was falling short in a lot of those ways. And so this was a way that I felt like, Oh, this is my thing, the thing that I contribute in the friend group, and I'm happy to do that, but it was really at the expense of, I didn't share a whole lot about me. And the other thing too, is I felt I was pretty different than a lot of my friends. We went out and had fun and I enjoyed that I could let loose, but I was the one that talked about waxing and was not as I wasn't conservative, and they were very conservative and more religious and all of those kinds of things. I was already kind of on the outside. I would talk about my work, doing domestic violence work they didn't understand. That there wasn't a lot of opportunity to be anything other than like the fun girl who showed up at parties, you know, and listened when you know you needed somebody to listen to you. But sharing a whole lot about myself was kind of like you're a lot, lot in the sense that they're not necessarily our values or our interests. So it was hard. It was hard because I did. I shut off a lot of myself to protect my ex husband and really to make myself fit in with that group
• 13:28
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: whenyou were just listening to Erin talk, is there any part of that that felt familiar to you, like maybe you have also lived this experience? Because I think a lot of people just heard themselves in what Erin said, not fitting in, shutting off parts of yourself, shrinking your personality down into whatever version of you feels palatable to people, safe, tolerable to the group. And here's the thing that gets me every time, it's not just about fitting in, it's that when you feel like you don't quite belong, a lot of people don't just quietly blend in. They over compensate. They find the one thing they can offer, the one way that they can contribute, the one way they can be the go to person for something in the group, and they go all in on that. For Erin, it was being the listener, the one who showed up, who cared, who held space for everyone else, while quietly making herself smaller everywhere else. We actually talked about this exact pattern. Back in Episode 85 with Deb Blum, we talked all about shifting people, pleasing friendship patterns. You see, Deb was doing the same thing, being the listener, morphing herself into whatever version felt most acceptable. And I don't think there's a coincidence that I've had two people with this similar tendency on the podcast. In fact, I think so many of us have done this, maybe in one friendship, maybe in an entire friend group, maybe in a season in our lives. Maybe we've done this forever. Maybe we've gone years and years and years without even realizing it. And here's what I want you to hear, this is just what people do. More people than you think. There is nothing wrong with you. If you have done this once, if you have done this in every friend group you've ever been in, you can change this pattern. That's all it is. It's a pattern. It's not anything about you. When you feel like the choice is fitting into the box the group wants to put you in or having no one, you squeeze yourself into the box. Of course you do. It's hard out there in the world, but it just never really feels good, not really. You can't actually be known by anyone, when all they know is that edited version. Of you, I think for a lot of us, this can build up over time into this kind of like shame of, why can't I just be me? If that is something you are carrying because you've done it once or twice or repeatedly, you have betrayed yourself to create this edited and refined version that fits into everyone else's preferences. I see you, this happens. It happens a lot, and you know what? You can change that pattern. You can rebuild. And when we identify that we are holding on to this feeling of like, I can't believe I've done this again, when we just name it, when we put out episodes like this, I think what happens is that feeling loses some of its power, and we can move on. We can just be like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to try and shift this pattern, and I'm going to rebuild in any completely different way than I ever have before. And that's what we're going to keep diving into.
• 17:08
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Is like, thinking. Is like fitting in by omission, almost, yeah, you know, and then you really are providing something that is very sought after, especially by women, right? Which is, I mean, at the end of the day, it's emotional labor, like women want to feel heard, women want to feel seen. And you were just like an endless receptacle to do that work forever and ever. But, I mean, that's kind of true. So that is a very valuable thing.
• 17:36
  Alex Alexander: You were giving them only to then turn around, kind of open up, which you've already said, like, not fully, because you were trying to protect other people. Was there anybody who, like, wanted to listen to you when you came to share about your divorce. Or was it really just like pushback?
• 17:52
  Erin Snow: No, I remember. It's funny. Like, I honestly was, like, getting more anxious once we told the kids. I was more anxious to tell my friends one in particular, I was more nervous to do that, almost than talk to my kids about it, like, honestly, that's how difficult I knew that conversation was going to be, and it was. And, you know, understanding that she had gone through a divorce as a kid, like her parents had been divorced, and that was challenging for her. And you know, I think that's where her head went when I shared the news. And like, she was immediately upset, like, you can't do this, you just can't do this. And I felt like I really needed to take care of her in that moment. And it wasn't like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Are you okay? What do you need? How can I help? And I'm not like, saying that to she was going through her own stuff, and I get that, and we have friends like that.
• 18:50
  Erin Snow: We have people in our life, the reaction is exactly what we is not exactly what we would hope for. It's not ill intentioned.
• 18:56
  Erin Snow: It's just like, Oh crap. I was hoping for something better, yeah, but it wasn't unexpected.
• 19:03
  Erin Snow: And then I got shut out. I got completely shut out. And again, it was going into COVID and restaurants at the time, like, could only have a certain number of people, and I was the odd number now, so I didn't get invited to the things. I didn't round out the group, you know, like, invites stopped coming. I was the bad guy. I was the whore, like all of the things.
• 19:27
  Erin Snow: And so the thing that I tried to protect, which was an image got distorted anyway, which was really hard. It was really hard because I would have liked to have unloaded. I would have liked to have shared how much this sucked, and like, authentically. Do that, not like, let me wrap it in a nice bow, version of what my life looked like at that time, and I wasn't able to do that.
• 19:56
  Alex Alexander: Oh, yeah, not a version that made them feel comfortable, but like, the real, honest truth after years and years of probably doing everything to make them feel comfortable, like, for once, you'd like to change the pattern and be the one who is is held a little bit right, like the emotional labor, somebody else is doing that for you. Were there any specific things like as this is going on? You're not getting the dinner invites, you're not getting responses to your messages. People are starting to basically fill in the blanks on your story with their own gossip and thoughts and stories they have been making up in their mind. Did you keep trying with your friendships at this point, or was was that like the nail in the coffin? You're ready to move away? I mean, we move away from those friendships, not
• 20:48
  Erin Snow: No, I think I did try COVID Make in some ways, made it a little bit easier, because we couldn't get together anyway, and so there wasn't this, you know, hey, we're all doing this thing, and you're just not invited. Sometimes that happened with the restaurants, as I mentioned. But. You know, we were already distancing, having to distance ourselves anyway. So in some ways, it made it a little bit easier for me to kind of pull away when I didn't feel like I was being supported. And there was, like a reason to do that, other than I didn't have to get into it right now, like, Hey, I feel like this is really shitty, and I could use some support. I wasn't prepared to have that conversation because I didn't think the response again would be good, and so I wasn't prepared to have that at that time. And the kids were still going to school together, once my kids went to different schools, ultimately, and so that created more distance, where I was like, Okay, I feel like I'm able to start having some more of these conversations. You know, I knew I wasn't invited out on a regular basis, and we were growing apart as friends, and that felt healthy to me.
• 21:59
  Erin Snow: Actually, I missed them. You know, you see stuff on social media. I didn't have social media really, before all of this, because what I was doing for work at the time, and then when I started seeing like, oh, I used to go do this with you. I And there was somebody else in my place, I was like, Oh, that feels yucky. I missed that. But, you know, stepping back from it also realizing, okay, this is actually a healthier path for me.
• 22:25
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think even when it's the right choice, it was what was comfortable and normal. So like watching other people stand in those photos, you're probably like, oh, okay, this can't be my normal anymore. This is not me.
• 22:40
  Alex Alexander: Like, I need to move on. I need to fill these gaps with other things. I mean, I just want to say really fast, I'm so sorry you had to go through your divorce, I guess, alone, like we've all done really hard things alone, but I just nobody should have to go through such a major life transition without people rallying behind them. Did you find anybody to help support you through and this could be right, like I talk about this in my book. I don't talk about it as much on the podcast, but I should this could be professionals. This could be like therapists, counselors, divorce coaches, like did you find support somewhere I or you just, you just white knuckled it. There's power in that too.
• 23:22
  Erin Snow: I mean, I did. I pretty much white knuckled it.
• 23:25
  Erin Snow: And so divorce is hard, whether you're like you wanted it or you didn't want it, or you're the one initiating it, like I knew divorce was the right choice. It was still difficult to go through and all of the changes, and, you know, feeling like a single mom at that point and not having anyone, so that was really hard. And, you know, making sure as a mom that the kids are okay. So no, I did not have the people. I did not have the people at the time we were finalizing everything we were seeing other people at that point, but that, like pre was where it was challenging, and I was just really pissed off at, you know, they show all these shows where the girlfriends are coming over with wine and, like, hugging each other with blankets and watching all the movies like I was so mad. I'm like, okay, my life is not a Hallmark movie.
• 24:18
  Erin Snow: This is not real life. Like this is shitty. Like this just really, really sucks. And I looked for something that where I could find that support that I was looking for. I didn't feel like therapy was what I needed.
• 24:31
  Erin Snow: I had gone through therapy before. I was like, that's not really what I'm looking for. I really just want a space where I can be raw and say all the things and it'd be okay. And I couldn't find it, which is why I started the business that I that I did.
• 24:47
  Alex Alexander: which we're going to talk more about, which I'm so excited. But to continue down this journey, you know, we've talked about how you have kind of rebuilt. So at what point do you think you started rebuilding, like building a new community? What was the catalyst for that? After breaking up with your entire friend group? I know they kind of broke up with you too, but also just being like, I'm done, I'm moving on. I'm moving on. I'm not gonna keep chasing this.
• 25:12
  Erin Snow: Yeah, so it was, you know, there was the event, and then I moved and to a different town, and that, again, created some distance on its own, but I didn't really say it out loud or have the conversations, really, until I was still desperately holding on to something, until I started this business, and I started joining networking groups, women's networking groups, and I had women who didn't know me had met me, you know, like a month before, whatever very short period of time that they knew me. And whether it was business or something personal, they rallied around me at various times, whether it was me, you know. Was like, hey, is this a good idea?
• 25:59
  Erin Snow: And they were like, yeah. Like, so supportive. And hey, if you ever need anything, call me. It started to be that reciprocal relationship that I talked about at the beginning, where I'm telling you, you're telling me, and we're having, you know, equal footing conversations. And I was like, What is this? I'm like, I don't so I remember going to a networking meeting, and I had decided I was like, going to step back. And I was from my friend group. I had been hanging on. I was still in a book club, and I'm like, I can't do this anymore. I know now what authenticity looks like. I can't keep showing up in this way and keep showing up in my old life as a version of myself that I'm not happy with, like I'm not perfect. I've made mistakes, for sure, but I need to be able to talk about those and own them, and not feel like I'm a horrible person, or, you know, that somebody is going to listen to me and going to be supporting me. And so I was like, if I can't do that, if I can't share the things about my life that I'm going through, whether it's good news, bad news, whatever, if I can't share those pieces of myself, these are no longer relationships I feel like I can be in. And so I had that conversation. I remember going to this networking meeting, and I stood up, you know, at the end of the meeting, everyone kind of says, you know, shout outs, things like that. And I stood up, and I said, I want to thank each and every woman in this room who has shown me what support looks like, who has shown me what friendship looks like, who has shown me the difference, and I broke up with all my friends. And it wasn't dramatic, it was just it was like a very respectful, hey, I'm just stepping away. I didn't need to get into everything, but I did that, and you all gave me the courage to do that, and I am forever grateful for that. I am forever grateful that I stood up and said that in a room of a lot of women, and that they then reached out to me afterwards and were like, Hey, thank you for sharing that. I don't think a lot of people talk about that.
• 28:27
  Erin Snow: That's not easy to do. Thank you for doing that. And I was like, Thank you for showing me what the other side can look like. I was prepared to do this on my own right. I was prepared to do that, and had accepted that. You know, this is all in the movies.
• 28:46
  Erin Snow: There's women are not like that, and they showed up and showed me something entirely different, and it is definitely quality over quantity. You can have one really good person in your life.
• 28:59
  Erin Snow: Have one really good person, you don't need 100
• 29:03
  Alex Alexander: I'm over here, like glassy eyed, because sometimes we can get so focused on like the leaving of the group, and you did something really amazing, which is that you added something new to your life, and then what you once you saw how fantastic these people were and supportive, and how reciprocal, and just how the energy was different, Suddenly it made leaving everything else behind seem way less terrible than you had, like, built it up in your brain. And then, not only that, you're, like, announcing it to the whole room.
• 29:40
  Alex Alexander: Erin, I love it so much, and so many people are going to listen to that and just identify with you know, having walked into some space at some point that felt so much, I don't know, safer like they had, they had a greater sense of belonging there, and then suddenly realizing, like, oh, wow, this is possible, huh? Crazy. Okay, well, I just got like chills about it. I'm so happy for you.
• 30:08
  Erin Snow: Thank you. I have met some incredible women, and we're all meant to be in each other's lives when we're meant to be there. And you know, I am grateful for my friend group, I am grateful for the move. I am grateful for you know that that was also part of my journey and my story, because I think if I didn't have those things, how do you know the difference? Like, if you're experiencing one thing and then you experience the other, like, if you don't have both, like, how do you know and what you need and what you're okay with? So that that was hugely helpful for me to be like, yeah. Like you said, like, Okay, I'm I can be okay, walking away. I can be okay, letting this go.
• 30:48
  Alex Alexander: How have you tried to show up differently in these new relationships? Is there anything you're like consciously trying to do? I mean, it sounds like you're sharing a little bit more, even if it's small wins or positive things. Is there anything you're trying to do different, or do you really think it's just. Are the people you've met that are the main factor.
• 31:12
  Erin Snow: I think it's a combination. I'm surrounding myself with people who are going to be supportive of me regardless of my choices. For example, like they don't have to agree with my choices, but I know they're not going to be like, Yeah, I can't be around you, or I am not afraid to share like I was before, because I don't feel like I will be judged. And so it's like a combo. So I have that feeling of, you know, this new sense of, it's safe here and now, because I feel safe now I'm going to share more about my life. I have just like really honestly, since I the work that I was doing before this, what I'm doing now, how I've finally stepped into empowering myself and using my voice and using it to advocate for myself and for others in ways that I didn't before. It's really an incredible transformation. And it snowballs like little steps like, Oh, that felt good to do that. And so that reinforces that I'm going to try it again. And, okay, cool. This was safe. I'm gonna try it again now. And now I'm just like, unstoppable, yeah,
• 32:33
  Alex Alexander: yeah, because it's all compounded on each other, like you're saying, like the snowball gets bigger and bigger, and the momentum picks up. And you test the waters with little, small things, and they feel okay, and so you keep going, you know, like a, like, a slow, steady, rebuild. You said something about being, you know, in that space and feeling safer overall. I think, did you look for any type of space in particular, like if somebody was in your shoes where they had just given up everything and they felt like nothing was safe.
• 33:08
  Alex Alexander: Do you have any tips on what to look for in a like a group space you're going to walk into? And that might just be what you looked for.
• 33:17
  Erin Snow: I was just looking for people to be real and for them to feel comfortable being themselves. Because if they feel comfortable being themselves, and I can feel comfortable being myself, right? I think it's like that shared community of cool, you own who you are, love who you are, and we'll do the same.
• 33:36
  Erin Snow: And I have had trauma in my background, and I worked with people who had also experienced trauma, and what I would see, and what I did a lot of trainings and talks around is that when you've had those experiences, you start trying to, you ask questions in a way you're you're assessing safety, like constantly, right? Is this a safe space? Is this a safe person? So you're dropping like little pieces in a conversation.
• 34:03
  Erin Snow: So let's say you and I are having this conversation outside of this podcast. We're just, you know, something big is going on in my life, and I'm trying to figure out, hey, is Alex a safe person for me to talk to? So the way I'm going to do that is I'm going to say, Hey, Alex, how was your weekend? Yeah. And you're like, how was yours? And I'm like, good. It was kind of rough. And if you just, like, gloss over that and just keep going, instead of saying, Hmm, I just heard Erin say this weekend was rough. Yeah, I'm gonna ask her, because I care about her, I'm gonna ask her, Oh, why was your weekend rough? And so it's those kinds of questions that people will kind of sprinkle in conversations to see how you're going to react. Are you a safe person? Are you picking up on these things? If you're not picking up on these things, why aren't you picking up on these things? And that can really drive whether or not somebody ultimately starts talking to you about what's really going on in their life. Yeah.
• 35:06
  Erin Snow: Well, I was gonna say, if you told me your weekend, right? My response would probably be something like, I something like, Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry that you had a rough weekend. I would love for you to share why it was so rough, but also, if you don't want to talk about it, I totally get that. I'm so sorry you had a rough weekend, and I'm always here, yeah, that's perfect. That's right. It gives me choice of whether or not I want to talk about it. It signals to me that, okay, Alex is somebody who cares about me. She noticed this, and is letting me know that I can go to her if I want to talk to her, right? But a lot of times we're just so focused on what's going on with us that we don't pick up on those things. And then somebody who is looking for that kind of connection is going to be like, okay, not right now.
• 35:52
  Erin Snow: You're not my person right now.
• 35:53
  Erin Snow: And it's unfortunate, because I don't think we focus on that enough, and I think that we're missing out we have we're missing out on opportunities to connect with people.
• 36:02
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I just want us all to sit with something Erin said for just a second. It because the example she gave is so tangible, like this is something you can take into your very next conversation. This is a shift you can make right now. If you've been around here for a while, you might recognize what's actually happening in this moment. This is my roots framework in action. If you're not familiar with it, go back and listen to Episode 12. But the short version is this, one of the three types of roots holding our friendships together are story roots, which are our beliefs and expectations about our friendship, beliefs like my friend cares about me. And those beliefs don't just appear out of nowhere. They get built through actions slowly over time, and those small, repeatable actions, they either confirm that belief or they quietly chip away at it.
• 37:05
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Now what Erin just described someone dropping a comment as simple as, hey, I had a rough weekend. That is an opportunity to show up in a way that confirms a story root. So when you see that, and you pick it up, and you respond in a way that's a belief building moment right there in real time in a conversation you're probably going to have tomorrow or the day after at least once this week, if not once an hour. Now, I know what some of you are thinking. You're like, okay, great, in that moment, Alex, my brain kind of short circuits a little bit, and I don't know how to word a good response. What do I actually say in that moment?
• 37:54
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Maybe you freeze. Maybe you're just not sure how to respond without making it weird. Maybe you tend to make it about yourself. Maybe you just need a second to figure it out, and it feels like by the time that second has passed. The conversation has moved on. If that is you, I want you to go listen to Episode 90 with Antonio Nieves. His episode has dear men in the title, but honestly, his episode applies to everyone. And one of the gems that you're going to hear in there is Antonio in the episode tells you his go to response that he uses every time he's in one of those belief building moments. Somebody says something that hints at something bigger, and he just says, Tell me more about that. And then he sits in silence. That's it. That's the whole thing. You don't have to have the perfect words. You don't have to know where the conversation is going. You just open the door and let them decide if they want to walk through it. And the joy of Antonio's response is that it works every time. So just remember those words, and then you can focus on looking for the moments, use the same phrase over and over and over again.
• 39:13
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Tell me more about that, and boom, you have showed up for your friend without the need to find the right words immediately, so simple but so powerful. Give it a try if you feel like it, report back.
• 39:30
  Alex Alexander: Oh, okay, I could go down such a rabbit hole for that, but I want to talk about The Unmuted Room, because you go through all of this, right? You're feeling like you don't belong necessarily, or like you aren't heard, your divorce, your friend breakup, your rebuild, and on the other side, you have created the UN muted room. And I have never heard of anything like it, and maybe that's just me not searching hard enough. So can you talk a little bit about the problem that you are trying to solve for people, and why you created The Unmuted Room?
• 40:04
  Erin Snow: Yeah, I was trying to solve my problem. So many of us do, yeah. Like, honestly, that was it. I was trying to solve my problem. Hey, I'm going through this. I went through this. At this point, I was remarried, and I was like, okay, look, I have worked with women who have not felt like their story has been heard. They've been telling it.
• 40:25
  Erin Snow: Nobody's hearing them. I'm like, check I understand what that feels like, not having a space to just like, be our raw selves because we're constantly, like, putting on a mask. I was thinking about the other day, like, if you think about a square, there's all these, like, pointy edges or a triangle, pointy edges. Like, we're always trying to round out those edges so we're more palatable to people. We make people more comfortable. And I'm like, No, I don't want to do that. I want a space where, if you're jagged and pointy and raw and messy all those things, great, I would love to create that safe space where you get to be that. And so that was what I was. Looking for for myself. When I was going through all of that, I couldn't find it. So again, I was watching, like, Sex in the City, these shows where I was, like, pissed off that all these people have this I'm like, This is not real life. I just I said to my husband, I'm like, I want to start this business where I listen to women, where that's what I do. I couldn't find it. I thought there was a need for it.
• 41:30
  Erin Snow: I'm like, I cannot be the only person who has gone through this and who is feeling this way, or felt this way. So I did. I left my that was in June of 2024 just this idea popped in my head.
• 41:43
  Erin Snow: July 2024 I left my job, and August I opened, I started.
• 41:49
  Alex Alexander: So what type of people are often coming to work with you?
• 41:55
  Erin Snow: So it's people who are frustrated, overwhelmed, burnt out, going through lots of different life transitions, divorce, empty nesters, people who are trying to figure out, okay, my kids are grown up and they're out of the house like now, what do I do people who are caring for aging parents, all of those big things, trying to get pregnant and having fertility issues, dealing with friend groups, dealing with family, rough jobs, helping to deal With co workers and navigating that really like anything that you can think of, that you're like, this is happening to me on a daily basis, and man, I would really love to talk to somebody about it. That's what this space is for. And I am honored that people come and share their lives with me, share what's hard for them. I also have people who come in and share their joys with me, this isn't just a place to kind of, I mean, it's a lot of letting go of or unloading or dropping off the baggage, if that's what we want to call it, the mental overload. But I also have people who are like, I have like, this amazing news, and I don't have anyone to share it with, either because they don't have anyone family or friends or a support system, or because they do, but maybe their support system is going through a really rough time, and they feel badly sharing their good news because they don't want to upset that person. So yeah, I hear it all.
• 43:26
  Alex Alexander: What a beautiful, beautiful space for people. I mean, especially I hadn't, it makes perfect sense when you say it. But I hadn't really thought about the people who, yeah, like somebody who just got pregnant, and some of their best friends are going through long term fertility struggles, and they want to just talk and talk and talk because they're excited, because it's amazing news, and whether they have shared or not shared, you know, maybe they have, but they just don't feel like they can talk about it to the extent they want to, because they're so excited with those other people.
• 43:58
  Alex Alexander: Because, again, as we talked about in the beginning, two emotions can exist at one time.
• 44:03
  Alex Alexander: Like, maybe your friend is excited for you, but just like, really can't take on talking about it all the time, because it also hits on how sad they are for themselves, right?
• 44:14
  Erin Snow: Exactly?
• 44:15
  Alex Alexander: Oh, that's a beautiful space you've created.
• 44:18
  Alex Alexander: Thank you. If somebody I mean, I'd love for people to come to The Unmuted Room and connect with you and like this is so needed. But if there are people who are listening to the podcast today, who maybe are in a friendship where they feel like that listening dynamic is uneven, do you have any tips for people who maybe want to try and see if they can make a shift?
• 44:45
  Alex Alexander: There's no guarantee, obviously.
• 44:47
  Alex Alexander: But if people like want to maybe bring it up to their friends, or they want to try opening up more themselves and seeing how it's received,
• 44:56
  Erin Snow: so I start my listening sessions, especially with new clients. How do you want me to listen to you today?
• 45:02
  Erin Snow: What are you looking for? Are you looking for a safe space to just talk with zero interruption. Are you hoping I can troubleshoot with you?
• 45:11
  Erin Snow: Problem solve, what is it that you need for me right now? And I did this in my marriage with my husband, because I would start venting, and he would immediately jump into problem solve. Let's fix this mode. And I'm like, I don't want that right now. I don't want that.
• 45:29
  Erin Snow: And I think if we kind of take that approach in our relationships, friendships or with a family member, co workers even like, hey, I really want to tell you something right now, and I just need you to listen.
• 45:42
  Erin Snow: Just let me go. Please don't interrupt me. And that's all I need from you right now and feeling empowered to say what you need. And if your friend's like, I can't do that. Okay, that's okay. We have to understand boundaries. And maybe your friend's like, hey, that's really important to me. I want to do that. I just can't do it right now. When's a good time for us to do that and create.
• 46:06
  Erin Snow: You did making sure that you know that, and I knew that I'm here for you when you want me to be. But if your friend's like, Yeah, I can't do that just because they can't be bothered or don't want to, then that's probably an indication right there that you need to maybe it's time to move on. Find it's not serving you in the way that you need, yeah.
• 46:28
  Alex Alexander: I mean, my whole thing is, like, give it a try, right? We can't assume everybody's gonna read our minds. We got to say it, right, but also listen to their answer.
• 46:39
  Alex Alexander: Because, yeah, if it's if it's not ever going to be reciprocated, if it's just like, No, no, thank you. You're the listener. I'm the dumper, and that's I'm just always going to vent and put things on you.
• 46:52
  Alex Alexander: Then, yeah, that's a red flag for sure, for sure. And at this point, hopefully anybody listening to the episode, you know, maybe is a little inspired, that if they go out there and search for some safer spacers, it'll feel better to walk away.
• 47:08
  Erin Snow: Yeah,
• 47:09
  Alex Alexander: yeah. Well, wow, this is such a good episode.
• 47:13
  Alex Alexander: Erin, how do I mean, let's close it out this way. How would people work with you in The Unmuted Room?
• 47:23
  Erin Snow: Yes, when I first started this a year and a half ago, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna have this space, and it's going to be right here, and but then I I'm all about access. And I was like, Look, other people are reaching out to me in other parts of the country, and they don't have something like this.
• 47:39
  Erin Snow: So, like, I've never heard of anything like this. I could really use this. Can you please work with me? And I was like, Okay, can I make this connection work on a virtual platform, and I've been able to do that. So I do. I'm here in New Hampshire, and I do have my office, but I also will do sessions virtually too.
• 47:58
  Alex Alexander: So you are available all over for anybody out there who is listening. You know, as much as I talk on the podcast about how we want to try and find friends who will do this reciprocal and supportive and all those types of things, like a type of support is a professional. And how amazing that you've created this option for somebody to plug into their wheel of connection, which is my framework, talking about the support you need,
• 48:28
  Erin Snow: I would say too.
• 48:29
  Erin Snow: Like, this is, can be a friendship saver?
• 48:32
  Alex Alexander: Ooh, tell me more.
• 48:34
  Unknown: Well, okay, let's take a divorce, for example. Since that's what I went through, like, a lot of people are like, okay, that event happened to you that was really sad. I'm here for it, and I was here for it, but now their lives have to move on, but you're still in it. And you know, if you show up to every dinner and you're like, he did this, and this is really hard, and this is going on in this and every single time you get together, that's the conversation. It's burnout for the friend. It's like, absolute burnout for the friend. They want to be there for you.
• 49:04
  Unknown: They're feeling bad that they can't be there for you. They've had enough, but you also still need the space. Just because they're done hearing it doesn't mean you're done talking about it. So I'm like, Hey, use me as the friendship saver. Like, come here, talk to me about it, so that you can have some space.
• 49:21
  Unknown: Your friend can have some space and a little bit of break, but you're also still able to process and talk about it, so that when you do go out with your friend, you have other things that you can discuss and engage in. And then when something comes up, they have more capacity to be like, Okay, I'm re energized and recouped.
• 49:40
  Unknown: I've had a little bit of break on this. I'm ready for it. Let me I'm here again for it, you know. So it allows, really, for both sides to get the things that they need. Because I've had people like, I can't they've stopped being friends with people because they won't stop talking about certain things.
• 49:56
  Unknown: And I feel sad for, you know, people going through that that's really, really hard, and there's a way to prevent that, and this is one of those ways.
• 50:04
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, it reminds me of a story. You know, we had a friend many years ago now, who was going through a really big struggle. And luckily, we had kind of this, like, bigger friend group, to the point where when somebody would get burnt out, we would actually tell other people we knew were talking to this friend and be like, Hey, I'm tapped out. I can't, I can't, and I need you guys to kind of step in a little bit more and be a little more proactive about the check ins, because our shared goal between a few of us was to like, support this person. We were able to kind of bounce it back and forth. When one person got burnt out, they kind of took a step back, and the other people were more proactive. But if you're not someone who has a few people, for whatever reason, this just maybe you do have a variety of people, but this isn't an area of your life where you feel like you can talk to a variety of people. You just have one person. Or this is really just this all consuming topic that even a couple people, or it's really sensitive.
• 51:07
  Alex Alexander: Sensitive. You can't talk about it with whatever it is. Doesn't matter. You know, you your services, your work, could be in tandem with friends to help, like you're saying, like balance the burnout. And you know, maybe some of it is working with you and really unloading and venting and like intense things. And then sometimes you go back to your friends and you give them, like updates, honestly with with my health stuff. That's kind of how I feel about like doctors appointments sometimes is I go and I do all this, like deep work with my doctor and problem solving and figuring it out. And then my friends that are really like a part of this journey and checking it all the time, I'm just kind of giving them, like a 510, minute update on what we're doing, and they're checking in on how I feel. And then we move on to other life things. Yeah, yep, yeah.
• 52:04
  Erin Snow: Tap me in. Tap me in.
• 52:08
  Alex Alexander: Well, Erin, I just want to thank you for coming on here and talking about, I mean, your journey, because I know so many people are going to identify with it, but also where this journey has brought you and the work you're doing now, that is, I think, so needed for so many people. I just, I'm so grateful you got creative and created your own niche. We need that you saw a problem and you're fixing it.
• 52:32
  Alex Alexander: Yes, yes, exactly. This was a lot of fun. Thanks. Thank you so
• 52:39
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: So many people are going to finish this episode and feel seen, maybe for the first time in a long while, because what Erin described that slow, quiet realization that the friendships you've been showing up to don't actually know you that is so much more common than anyone talks about. We're out here much, Alex.
• 53:01
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: talking about normalizing this and normalizing that. Why aren't we talking about normalizing the fact that so many of us are just trying to fit in, and the wild, disorienting part is that you had a hand in that you made yourself smaller. You edited yourself down. You were so busy being everyone else's person that you stopped letting anyone be yours. You didn't want to mess up other friendships or rock the boat so you tried to show up in a way that you felt like everyone wanted you to, and now you don't know how to get out of the situation. Will anyone really like the real version of you? Can you actually walk away and start over? Is that even possible? Erin's answer is yes, and my answer is yes. This podcast, the one you're listening to right now, was built by a woman who was living in a world full of people who didn't really know what was going on with her, and that woman is me. So trust me when I say there are endless episodes of the Friendship IRL Podcast about what it looks like to rebuild, what it feels like, and how you actually do it. You are in the right place. Now, if this episode cracks something open for you, I want you to go listen to Episode 86 it's a solo episode that I recorded titled How to embody main character energy in your friendships, and it's really all about this idea of kind of peeling back the layers on your authentic self and letting yourself actually be seen, instead of riding somebody else's waves and losing sight of your own needs. Which probably sounds familiar after today's episode, doesn't it? Now, if you heard Erin's story today and you thought, I need that, I need somewhere to just say the thing, all of it, without someone jumping in to fix it or judge it or make it about them, then go find Erin. The Unmuted Room is linked in the show notes, and Erin offers a free 10 minute consultation so you can learn more about what this looks like and whether it's the right fit for you. That link is in the show notes, and with that, I'll see you next week.
• 55:23
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Thank you for listening to this episode of Friendship IRL. I am so honored to have these conversations with you. But don't let the chat die here. Send me a voice message. I created a special website just to chat with you. You can find it at
• 55:40
  [alexalex.chat](http: //alexalex.chat).
• 55:43
  [alexalex.chat](http: You can also find me on Instagram. My handle,@itsalexalexander. Or go ahead and leave a review wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts.
• 55:55
  [alexalex.chat](http: Now if you want to take this conversation a step further, send this episode to a friend.
• 56:00
  [alexalex.chat](http: Tell them you found it interesting. And use what we just talked about as a conversation starter the next time you and your friend hang out. No need for a teary goodbye. I'll be back with a new episode next week.