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Is the world alive? · Life In Flow Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Life in Flow podcast.
0:03
The three of us,
0:05
Yulia,
0:05
Polina,
0:06
and Irina,
0:07
are exploring what Life in Flow and Flow in Life is.
0:12
Join us as we experiment,
0:14
test our diverse hypotheses,
0:17
and have fun in the process.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: Will we find an answer?
0:23
SPEAKER_00: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
0:30
We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
0:35
conversation itself
0:36
SPEAKER_00: becomes a group flow experience.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: Go beyond the intellectual information.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: Listen with your whole body.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: and notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
1:05
Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
1:11
body,
1:12
and energy flow together.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: Hi, and welcome to another episode of Life in Flow podcast.
1:21
and um today i'm facilitating this episode i'm julia and with
1:29
me is polina and irina
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's a wonderful day in Berlin.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: Very sunny, very warm, also very dry for my plants.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being with us today.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: Really appreciate it.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: You listening and also you kind of playing and sensing along.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: The topic of our conversation is a question.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: Is the world alive?
2:04
SPEAKER_02: And...
2:06
SPEAKER_02: This is kind of sounds like a simple question,
2:10
SPEAKER_02: but at the same time,
2:11
SPEAKER_02: to me,
2:13
SPEAKER_02: it was a very dangerous question for quite a long time.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: Dangerous because it's like, is the world alive?
2:24
SPEAKER_02: What are you implying there?
2:26
SPEAKER_02: Are you implying that my house is alive?
2:31
SPEAKER_02: The rocks are alive?
2:34
SPEAKER_02: And...
2:36
SPEAKER_02: because I was raised with the values of being intelligent.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: There was a big contradiction there.
2:53
You cannot be intelligent and at the same time believe that the
2:57
world is alive.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of an interesting, a very, very interesting topic to me.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that I would be able to discuss it publicly.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: And I'm so happy that I'm able to do that because things change.
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SPEAKER_02: And I'm very looking forward to a conversation with you today.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: How are you?
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Great.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: Excited for you that you get to dive into this.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: You, Irv?
3:27
let's see what we discover yeah okay so we will start as we
3:34
usually do with a
3:36
warm-up where we basically exchange um some stories and get
3:41
some ideas flowing and
3:43
then we'll exchange some more i'll bring up a couple of
3:48
questions that i haven't
3:49
SPEAKER_02: shared with the girls that i have come up with myself and again
3:57
SPEAKER_02: Please play along, sense along, and yeah, have fun with us.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: OK, so the first thing is the warm up.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: So what we're going to do, I'm going to offer a word to you.
4:20
And I will ask you to come up,
4:22
and myself also,
4:23
to come up with some stories
4:26
SPEAKER_02: which are kind of short stories, but are more felt than anything.
4:36
So there are maybe some flashbacks that we could also feel with
4:40
you on kind of why
4:43
SPEAKER_02: that story is there.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: And we'll make one round and see if we want to make another round.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: And the word for you and for me is a fairy tale.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Well.
5:26
The first thing that comes to my mind is my relationship with
5:35
the forest spirit of
5:38
SPEAKER_01: the forest that is nearby my parents' house.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm visiting them twice a year.
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SPEAKER_01: And so every day I go for a walk to that forest.
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SPEAKER_01: And since some years ago,
5:57
SPEAKER_01: I began some sort of a ritual that every time when I enter the forest,
6:14
SPEAKER_01: I greet the spirit.
6:17
I call him the grandfather and say,
6:20
hello,
6:20
grandfather,
6:21
that's me,
6:22
I'm back.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: And it sort of feels like that there is the relationship.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Because every time when I lose some things in the forest,
6:45
SPEAKER_01: what I do is I ask the grandfather,
6:49
SPEAKER_01: like,
6:50
SPEAKER_01: hey,
6:50
SPEAKER_01: when you stop playing with this thing,
6:52
SPEAKER_01: can you please return it to me?
6:55
SPEAKER_01: And he actually does.
6:58
Every time when I lose a thing,
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I will find it somewhere in the forest later on.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And when we all were locked down for the COVID,
7:12
SPEAKER_01: I spent five months in my parents' house because I got locked down there.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: At that period of time,
7:23
SPEAKER_01: I learned to collect mushrooms,
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SPEAKER_01: which I never liked before,
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SPEAKER_01: but I sort of have a very strange relationship with traditions.
7:43
From one side I want to rebel against them and on the other
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side I want to keep them.
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So I always like learning how to bake these pireskis and blinis
7:57
and all the other Russian stuff.
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the traditional stuff and I always wanted to learn how to
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collect mushrooms because
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my father is a fan of this stuff and he knows a lot about them
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and I knew nothing
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so during that time I started collecting mushrooms and I
8:21
remember the last day
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SPEAKER_01: I went to the forest before I was about to leave to Barcelona.
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All of a sudden,
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somehow,
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I found a clearing in the forest that was just full of
8:45
mushrooms.
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SPEAKER_01: It was like...
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SPEAKER_01: It was plucked with the mushrooms.
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SPEAKER_01: And I was so amazed.
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SPEAKER_01: I was like, no, really?
8:58
SPEAKER_01: So many?
8:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's all for me?
9:00
And I couldn't get rid of the feeling that it was like a
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farewell present for me
9:09
SPEAKER_01: from the spirit.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: You're like, okay.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we had fun.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Here is for you.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: You're like, thank you, thank you, thank you.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: I was so excited.
9:25
SPEAKER_03: Cool.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: So your fairy is your relationship with that forest.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: I was so in Ira's story that I actually don't remember the prompt.
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SPEAKER_02: What do we do?
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It's whatever comes up for you,
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a story,
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maybe a story in response to a word.
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SPEAKER_02: A fairy tale.
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SPEAKER_02: That's something in the moment or that you can... Fairy tale.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: So many images come up with that word, you know?
10:08
SPEAKER_00: The Red Riding Hood or... What was she called?
10:12
She was called something else in Russian,
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so it felt like a different story.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: With the wolf, right?
10:20
SPEAKER_00: And Niznayka.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Remember Niznayka?
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Niznayka was like my go-to for so long when I was younger.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't really call that genre of fairy tales, but yeah, okay.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
10:32
SPEAKER_02: Niznayka was sort of fantasy.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Kind of fantasy, right?
10:36
Because he was in the forest with all these little people and
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he was like finding
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SPEAKER_00: all the stuff,
10:40
SPEAKER_00: like all these adventures.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: No?
10:43
SPEAKER_00: I think they had a city.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: But a whole city that was like magical, right?
10:48
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like a regular city.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: It was... Right?
10:52
SPEAKER_00: No?
10:52
SPEAKER_02: There is magic there.
10:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:56
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: For me, Nyusnaika was all about like adventure and exploration.
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And that was kind of the,
11:04
I guess,
11:06
through line to other fairy tales about what is a fairy tale.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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I love going in all those adventures,
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but I guess a more traditional fairy tale.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: I have lots of philosophical questions that come up around it.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, I can share kind of like my
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what comes up to a fairy tale and it's usually your parents my
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parents would read
11:40
me fairy tales and I would be dreaming I would be imagining
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myself being this
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princess and wearing this beautiful dress and it's like this is
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quite a I guess
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SPEAKER_02: common traditional thing to do and then I felt so good to
12:01
believe even for moments that this could be true and that's you
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know the princess
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could be there i could be the princess and then i could find
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this uh wooden stick
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and it would be magic stick and um there would be magic and
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then of course as you
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SPEAKER_02: grow up or even um
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know like as as things happen it's like realize well no that is
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not possible and
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and you get this i think constantly um well i got this
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constantly growing up that
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this is fairy tales that they don't have a place in um in their
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real life or in the
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SPEAKER_02: life of an adult and that felt very sad and then at one point i
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experienced something that just proved it and felt like,
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oh,
12:58
yeah,
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I knew it.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I actually never identified with the princess.
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SPEAKER_00: For me,
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SPEAKER_00: it was all about kind of the storyline,
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SPEAKER_00: the adventure,
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SPEAKER_00: then the good and the bad,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:17
SPEAKER_00: like all those dynamics between people.
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SPEAKER_00: And I actually really did not not believe the magical aspects.
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SPEAKER_00: It was kind of a normal aspect.
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SPEAKER_00: I never considered whether it would actually translate to reality or not.
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SPEAKER_00: It was more about like just being in it and like analyzing it.
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SPEAKER_02: And so we're more like Baba Yaga or if not princess or did you?
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SPEAKER_00: No, I think I would.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: No,
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SPEAKER_00: I would be more the observer of the thing,
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SPEAKER_00: except for in the case of Nisnayka,
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SPEAKER_00: I was definitely with him on all the adventures.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: He's like as your hero.
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SPEAKER_00: How interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: Not that he is my hero,
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SPEAKER_00: but I got to do all these cool things with him,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: and like explore the world in ways that I didn't get a chance to,
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SPEAKER_00: I think,
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SPEAKER_00: in real life.
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SPEAKER_00: So it was really cool.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: and for those who are not familiar with the Russian language,
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SPEAKER_02: Niznaika translates literally as not knowing,
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SPEAKER_02: someone who doesn't know,
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SPEAKER_02: and that's why he was often made fun of,
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SPEAKER_02: but actually,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: he was the character that we would empathize with,
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SPEAKER_02: and he would be making discoveries,
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SPEAKER_02: having adventures and all this.
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SPEAKER_00: I think he more embodied the sense of the beginner's mind.
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SPEAKER_00: I know that probably he had a negative connotation in our culture,
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SPEAKER_00: but I didn't see him that way.
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SPEAKER_00: I saw it as a beginner's mind in terms of exploration.
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SPEAKER_00: No, Ir?
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't think that he had a negative connotation.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: There is some aspect of...
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like the fool that always gets out of situations on pure luck.
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SPEAKER_01: But he's the trickster for kids.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think everyone loved him.
15:29
But I think it's also worth to mention to our listeners that
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it's actually like
15:35
SPEAKER_01: we're talking about the character,
15:38
the main character of the very popular book series and the
15:45
animation movies from
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Soviet Union.
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SPEAKER_01: They were extremely popular in Soviet Union in our time.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I've never read Miss Naika.
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SPEAKER_01: It was never my favorite story.
16:05
But I do resonate with what Yulia shared regarding,
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like,
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is fairy tale real?
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SPEAKER_01: Is it really true that it can't be real?
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SPEAKER_01: Because I am a very avid reader of fantasy books.
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And one of the reasons why I like reading them so much because
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they exactly give me
16:44
SPEAKER_01: back this sensation,
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SPEAKER_01: this feeling of magic.
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SPEAKER_01: And when I get inside a book that I like a lot,
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SPEAKER_01: I walk in the world,
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SPEAKER_01: even when I'm not reading,
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really feeling this sensation that everything is speaking to me
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and there is this
17:12
SPEAKER_01: some kind of thread of connection between the world and me
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SPEAKER_01: that go beyond just the physical interaction.
17:27
And every time when my rational mind starts questioning my
17:35
magical experiences,
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SPEAKER_01: saying like,
17:38
SPEAKER_01: no,
17:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm just imagining things,
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SPEAKER_01: it's all not true,
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SPEAKER_01: it can't be,
17:43
SPEAKER_01: there is another more rational explanation,
17:46
SPEAKER_01: or it's just your imagination,
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SPEAKER_01: because I have a very...
17:51
vivid imagination in the end I always come to the conclusion
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you know what I don't
18:00
care I just don't want to live in the world where there is no
18:03
magic because it's it
18:07
just gives this feeling of oh that I feel in the body and like
18:20
I don't want to live
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SPEAKER_01: without it
18:26
SPEAKER_00: It gives us a sense of like there's more.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how we would have weathered the,
18:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:34
SPEAKER_00: the Soviet era if there weren't fairy tales.
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SPEAKER_00: It was like the most sort of creative,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: like there's more energetics out in the world,
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SPEAKER_00: there's magic.
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SPEAKER_00: To me, it was definitely an escape to other realities.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: Or like the possibility of it, right?
18:55
SPEAKER_00: The possibility that there's something beyond this reality.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: Well,
19:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
19:03
SPEAKER_02: interestingly,
19:04
SPEAKER_02: fantasy books and fantasy series are the most read ever books,
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SPEAKER_02: the most watched ever series.
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And like,
19:16
if you look at anything,
19:18
any aspect of our lives,
19:21
including,
19:22
well,
19:23
computer games or anything out there actually it's all soaked
19:27
with magic and
19:29
magical characters and um magical just processes and happenings
19:39
and stuff like that
19:41
so it's interesting that there's we're like such a rational
19:46
society that is also
19:49
SPEAKER_02: obsessed with
19:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, some people would say that it's just the escapism.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: People who don't know how to be in this reality, they want to...
20:08
SPEAKER_01: escape to the imagined world because it's easier that way.
20:13
It's easier to imagine yourself to be in the world when you
20:17
just can do things like
20:19
SPEAKER_01: this and everything happens according to your wishful thinking.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: So that brings me to my first question actually.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: What does it mean the world is alive?
20:34
SPEAKER_02: What does it mean for you?
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And how maybe,
20:37
because we started discussing magic,
20:39
how magic fits into this?
20:51
SPEAKER_01: I think there are several aspects to...
20:57
SPEAKER_01: to the way how I, at least, look at this question.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: Because... Yes, there is an aspect of... You're like, I do believe and...
21:22
SPEAKER_01: for me, it's not just a matter of the mental belief.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: It's a matter of really of felt experience that everything has,
21:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:38
SPEAKER_01: some sort of consciousness.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: It might not be exactly as we imagine what consciousness is.
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SPEAKER_01: So it's not entrepreneurial.
21:53
anthropomorphological it's not like human-like consciousness
21:58
although we have no
21:59
idea what human-like consciousness is either but it does have
22:11
you know something
22:15
SPEAKER_01: beyond just the physical form and
22:21
SPEAKER_01: there's something that connects everything to everything.
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So this is the dwelling of the magic,
22:38
when we piece behind the veil and are able to somehow act
22:49
in the world not just from the physical action but through
22:56
operating these like
22:58
hidden threats but i think that when we are talking about is
23:08
the world alive for me
23:10
SPEAKER_01: there is also another aspect as considering the world
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SPEAKER_01: as it is, like as an actor in itself, something that has its own agency.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: And this is,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: I think,
23:28
SPEAKER_01: a very complicated and complex question because,
23:32
SPEAKER_01: again,
23:34
SPEAKER_01: whenever we attribute an agency to someone or something,
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SPEAKER_01: we tend to give this agency human-like aspects.
23:50
I do believe that the world as an agent,
23:56
an agent with whom we can interact somehow,
24:03
is alive.
24:04
But it does not mean that it has a rational mind or human-like
24:11
consciousness.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: It's something else.
24:16
there are the threads of communication and interaction whether
24:26
we are aware of them or not.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: I want to hear what Eula has to say on this topic before I chime in.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: I need a little more to tune into this.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: So what does it mean that the world is alive for me?
25:01
SPEAKER_02: I actually came to experience aliveness
25:09
SPEAKER_02: in quite direct ways,
25:15
SPEAKER_02: really experiencing that whatever it is I'm interacting with,
25:24
SPEAKER_02: be it trees,
25:26
SPEAKER_02: which is that is kind of easier,
25:28
SPEAKER_02: right?
25:29
SPEAKER_02: With trees, they're established by science as being sentient beings.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
25:39
SPEAKER_02: they have extensive communication networks,
25:43
SPEAKER_02: they have intelligence,
25:45
SPEAKER_02: their intelligence
25:47
evolved much earlier um and they were able to live and survive
25:53
um in more diverse
25:56
conditions than human beings i mean they're like much more
26:00
ancient right as well as
26:02
a lot of other animals um but with um you know then we come of
26:09
course to rocks and
26:12
SPEAKER_02: to
26:14
SPEAKER_02: objects that surround us, are they also alive?
26:29
SPEAKER_02: How do I say it without sounding stupid?
26:34
SPEAKER_02: I think that they
26:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, you just, when you allow them to be alive, they become alive.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: Because,
26:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
26:49
somehow the filter through which you perceive the world starts
26:54
allowing for
26:56
SPEAKER_02: different signals to come through somehow.
27:01
um yeah and also an interesting thing i actually listened to a
27:05
podcast um yesterday
27:07
about on on this topic one my favorite podcast that i have
27:12
shared with you girls
27:13
the emerald podcast actually i was like i was looking for some
27:17
inspiration because
27:18
the um episode is around also is this world alive are there
27:22
objects or not really
27:24
SPEAKER_02: and um
27:26
One of the things that I really loved,
27:28
he said,
27:29
is stones have a billion-year agenda.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of people in these discussions,
27:38
SPEAKER_02: they're like,
27:39
SPEAKER_02: okay,
27:40
SPEAKER_02: but you wouldn't say that the rocks and stones,
27:43
SPEAKER_02: that they have some,
27:44
SPEAKER_02: whatever,
27:44
SPEAKER_02: that they're alive.
27:45
Yeah,
27:47
and yet even the modern science is now saying that there is no
27:51
clear border between
27:53
um being alive and not being alive because our cells all of
27:57
them technically
27:58
they're not alive and yet they when they come together
28:02
something makes them alive
28:04
and that's something for example are some planets like the moon
28:08
without the moon
28:09
there wouldn't be life on earth there also are stones and rocks
28:14
for example
28:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:15
SPEAKER_02: the fact that we're hearing each other now is due to us having,
28:22
SPEAKER_02: due to the rocks,
28:25
SPEAKER_02: liquid minerals,
28:29
SPEAKER_02: like zinc,
28:30
SPEAKER_02: for hearing.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: And then we're seeing each other because also the liquid matrix,
28:37
SPEAKER_02: the conductors and semiconductors.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a little bit incoherent, but
28:45
SPEAKER_00: What does it mean that the rocks have an agenda?
28:53
SPEAKER_00: Can you give a little bit more context on that?
28:57
Well,
28:57
what I understood by this is that the rocks are the most
29:06
ancient beings on Earth.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: The rocks are also a very unique thing about the Earth, where
29:15
that's history is recorded unlike any other known planet where
29:23
this recording is
29:24
not happening for various reasons because the um the conditions
29:29
somehow are not
29:30
allowing for this so earth is kind of i heard this as an essay
29:36
also from actually a
29:37
SPEAKER_02: scientist and she's saying like
29:40
SPEAKER_02: Rocks are where Earth is keeping its history.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: And so with all that history,
29:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:48
SPEAKER_02: the rocks or the liquid minerals are ubiquitous nowadays.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: I mean...
29:56
SPEAKER_02: Of course, there are people who make pilgrimage to sea rocks, right?
30:03
There are rocks for whom people fight,
30:06
or minerals like emeralds or whatever.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: And there's also the conductors, for example.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: Your foam is only there because they're liquid minerals.
30:19
And so this is how,
30:22
guess what is meant by stones have a billionaire agenda.
30:30
I also would take it as that because if we assume that there is
30:36
a consciousness in
30:40
a rock but it's just like from the point of view of
30:45
transformation of the physical
30:46
form the time flows very differently for this consciousness
30:55
rather than for us
30:58
So the agenda of this consciousness will be like four million
31:03
years because this is
31:06
SPEAKER_01: the time of their processes.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to tune in to what both of you said and also trying to tune in
31:23
SPEAKER_00: to where do I land on this topic right now?
31:28
SPEAKER_00: The only thing that I'm accessing is,
31:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
31:31
SPEAKER_00: as the two of you know,
31:33
SPEAKER_00: I kind of see everything as frequencies and energy.
31:37
And I know that rocks,
31:39
for example,
31:41
have an ability to hold energy,
31:43
right?
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Because you could feel different things if you touch different things.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: So from that perspective,
31:54
SPEAKER_00: I would say everything is alive,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: but also because I know everything's made up of molecules.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: Now the consciousness aspect I think is a little bit
32:06
SPEAKER_00: Well,
32:07
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
32:07
SPEAKER_00: because I mean,
32:08
SPEAKER_00: through our human mind,
32:09
SPEAKER_00: I would only understand consciousness as in terms of us,
32:13
SPEAKER_00: right?
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Our consciousness.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: We don't even understand our consciousness.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: So in terms of data,
32:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
32:21
SPEAKER_00: if energy contains data,
32:23
SPEAKER_00: then that means from that perspective,
32:25
we could make the leap to say everything is alive because
32:30
everything has an
32:31
SPEAKER_00: energetic frequency to it,
32:33
SPEAKER_00: which has data in it.
32:37
If data is in some way also related to consciousness,
32:43
then it's all kind of contained in it.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: I have a question for you.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: How do you connect the data to being alive?
33:03
SPEAKER_00: Well,
33:04
because the experiments have shown that things have different
33:08
actual frequencies,
33:10
SPEAKER_00: like energetic signatures,
33:14
and there must be some sort of data that kind of keeps that
33:18
thing together in its
33:19
SPEAKER_00: form.
33:24
whatever it is that makes up that that thing that frequency and
33:28
then and then also
33:30
the rules for that frequency to create what we perceive as as a
33:35
thing an object or
33:36
SPEAKER_00: a tree or or
33:40
SPEAKER_00: It's funny because when originally we started talking about this topic,
33:43
I actually sensed there was a bit of resistance about
33:48
everything is alive.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: I have a bit of resistance to it because if everything is alive,
33:52
that means that I need to be even more aware and conscious than
33:56
I already am.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, I have to...
33:59
SPEAKER_00: You know,
34:00
like step into the consideration of everything around me even
34:05
more with even more
34:07
SPEAKER_00: awareness than now,
34:08
SPEAKER_00: which requires like at first it seems like,
34:13
SPEAKER_00: oh,
34:13
SPEAKER_00: shit,
34:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't have the resources for this.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: But then I know that's just a mental construct around it.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: But it does make me question like,
34:19
SPEAKER_00: OK,
34:19
SPEAKER_00: so if everything is alive,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: I really could interact with it as in a different way than I have been.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: That is super interesting.
34:30
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I guess, how does it change things?
34:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know if I consider things in my environment, right?
34:45
SPEAKER_00: Like even the whole tree thing, right?
34:47
It was because of you that I started paying attention to trees
34:50
and starting to be
34:51
SPEAKER_00: like a little bit more aware and conscious about,
34:54
SPEAKER_00: okay,
34:55
SPEAKER_00: what is there with this tree?
34:57
SPEAKER_00: Which requires more openness, more actual curiosity, right?
35:03
It's another kind of aspect of how to be when I go outside or
35:07
even when I sit here
35:09
SPEAKER_00: and I look at the tree outside my house.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: But now if we're talking about everything is alive,
35:15
then I could consider making room in my consciousness and
35:20
awareness for this table
35:23
SPEAKER_00: and this monitor and this mirror,
35:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:26
SPEAKER_00: like in some other kind of way,
35:29
maybe which would make me reference myself even more in this
35:34
time and space,
35:35
SPEAKER_00: which actually could be great.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: But it's a new it's a new concept.
35:45
Have you ever had any stories,
35:48
Polina or Irina,
35:49
when you had something,
35:51
maybe a car?
35:53
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a rather common story,
35:56
which you kind of have a relationship with and you know its
36:00
character and you can
36:03
SPEAKER_02: tell what it's gonna do or might do.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: Not necessarily a car, but anything.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't come to my mind right now a specific story,
36:21
but this is exactly one of the points that I even had noted
36:27
down while I was
36:28
SPEAKER_01: listening to you,
36:29
SPEAKER_01: Yula,
36:29
SPEAKER_01: because it's really such a common story.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: pattern.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: We are talking to our computers,
36:38
we are talking to our cars in the hope for them to keep certain
36:43
behavior or adjust
36:45
their behavior when we need different results from what we are
36:49
getting from them.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: And it works, actually.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: It's not with me, but I remember just with the car.
37:00
It was one of my first jobs,
37:02
so it was still in Moscow many,
37:05
many decades ago.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: We were going to corporate event, I guess.
37:15
So I was going in a car with the two of other girls from the
37:19
office and one was
37:21
driving a corporate car because she was like salesperson or
37:27
something like this,
37:28
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: And so we get into the car.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: I think it was winter.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: So the weather was not very favorable really for the car to start.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: And the car was given the problem.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: And so one girl...
37:50
SPEAKER_01: No, I think the one who was driving was very irritated.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: And she was like, what are you doing?
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Like this bad car.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to use bad words.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: So like, it's not working.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: Why it's not working.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: And the other one who was actually was sitting at the passenger seat,
38:17
SPEAKER_01: or maybe not,
38:18
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember whose car it was,
38:20
SPEAKER_01: but one was very pissed off and irritated,
38:25
SPEAKER_01: and the other one said,
38:26
SPEAKER_01: no,
38:27
SPEAKER_01: wait,
38:27
SPEAKER_01: wait,
38:27
SPEAKER_01: wait,
38:27
SPEAKER_01: you are not doing it right.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: You just, you need to be gentle.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: And she started,
38:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
38:34
SPEAKER_01: caressing the interior of the car and saying,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: like,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: hey,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: look,
38:39
SPEAKER_01: darling,
38:40
SPEAKER_01: please,
38:40
SPEAKER_01: could you please just start up?
38:43
SPEAKER_01: Because we need to go.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: You're very good.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: We're very grateful.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: And it worked.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: It started.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: And we were able to go.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we probably have heard many stories like this.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
39:06
SPEAKER_02: Pauline,
39:06
SPEAKER_02: and to what you shared,
39:09
SPEAKER_02: this is what I have been experiencing,
39:12
SPEAKER_02: that it is kind of taking more energy,
39:18
SPEAKER_02: but definitely a very big shift that may be also energy draining,
39:23
SPEAKER_02: because one of the things is that you are opening up.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: And you don't want to be open all the time, right?
39:31
So you want to regulate your state and what you're open to and
39:34
what you're not open to.
39:36
But then also another thing is that when you acknowledge this
39:41
agency of anything,
39:46
SPEAKER_02: it's kind of you feel that more reciprocity is needed.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: Somehow more respect is needed.
39:55
SPEAKER_02: A different type of...
39:57
SPEAKER_02: behavior and being is needed.
39:59
SPEAKER_02: That's been my experience.
40:01
So I'm still kind of like even regulating myself into a state
40:05
where I can handle it
40:06
SPEAKER_02: without getting too exhausted.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I also have a different perspective on this.
40:19
We can't take into account everything because exactly it's the
40:22
matter of resources.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: We...
40:27
Our RAM memory doesn't allow us to take into account everything
40:34
at any moment.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: So do you take into account all people?
40:42
SPEAKER_01: Even the one whom you are meeting on the street?
40:45
SPEAKER_01: Most of them?
40:48
SPEAKER_01: they're not of big concern for you,
40:51
SPEAKER_01: you're ignoring them because this data,
40:54
SPEAKER_01: if we're talking in terms of data,
40:55
SPEAKER_01: at this moment is not relevant for your experience.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: So I think we've, all the rest is the same.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:06
It's a matter of what are you focusing on and how are you using
41:10
your focus?
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
41:14
SPEAKER_00: And we only have a certain,
41:16
SPEAKER_00: I think,
41:17
SPEAKER_00: mechanism of lens,
41:18
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:19
SPEAKER_00: right,
41:19
SPEAKER_00: the lenses that we have in terms of,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: are we in the observer self?
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Are we zooming out and trying to take,
41:28
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:29
SPEAKER_00: kind of the energetic frequency of the entire space into account?
41:32
SPEAKER_00: Are we specifically focusing on this one leaf?
41:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean...
41:40
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot, there's a lot of data.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: Like that's what it feels like when I consider this.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: There's just so much data and I can only process so much at a time.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: But also in the processing,
41:52
SPEAKER_00: like what you said,
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Yule,
41:53
SPEAKER_00: it really does take resources and what you're saying too,
41:56
SPEAKER_02: Ir.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: And yet I think there's also another aspect.
42:03
SPEAKER_00: When I reference...
42:06
the space and time and and me rendering in the space and time
42:16
which includes you
42:18
know my my distance to the objects around me and and also the
42:23
energetic referencing
42:24
like am i connected to whatever is above and below you know
42:27
like the the the earth
42:29
SPEAKER_00: the ground whatever whatever it is in that moment
42:35
SPEAKER_00: There is more available,
42:38
SPEAKER_00: like even in terms of me,
42:39
SPEAKER_00: more of me is available,
42:41
even though I'm using resources to reference and take into
42:45
account the things,
42:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:47
SPEAKER_00: around me.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
42:50
SPEAKER_01: What I'm describing?
42:53
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean, but there is more of you available?
42:57
SPEAKER_02: Like more energy, more resources?
43:03
SPEAKER_00: More presence.
43:06
which has some kind of intelligence to it that is not the same
43:11
if I'm not in that state.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: Maybe more intelligent mechanism for processing the data.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: Like that's how I would describe it.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: It's hard because we don't usually talk about this stuff, right?
43:24
So I'm like trying to tune in right now,
43:27
like for the first time,
43:28
like a baby.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: It's hard to talk about this.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let me also.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Did I understand it right?
43:35
You said that if you take into account the aliveness of more
43:43
things around you,
43:44
SPEAKER_01: then you become more present.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: Not aliveness,
43:49
SPEAKER_00: because I haven't consciously,
43:51
SPEAKER_00: specifically tuned into that aspect yet,
43:54
SPEAKER_00: but I will after this episode.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: But more like...
43:57
SPEAKER_00: the fact that these things are here and what am I,
44:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:04
SPEAKER_00: how am I rendering also in relation to those things?
44:08
SPEAKER_00: I haven't taken it to this next level of the aliveness aspect,
44:11
but just in terms of like they're also in the space and I'm in
44:15
the space and that
44:17
SPEAKER_00: kind of tunes into something more intelligent in terms of my embodiment.
44:22
But I wonder what will happen if I really have the intention of
44:26
also tuning into
44:27
SPEAKER_00: the aliveness of the thing,
44:30
SPEAKER_00: of the things in the environment.
44:35
I know that when I sit,
44:36
there's this really cool secret spot where I live on a bluff.
44:42
And the bluffs in San Diego tend to come down sometimes,
44:47
so it's actually a bit dangerous.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: But when I go there, I do...
44:55
not that i ask like hey let me know if you're about to go but i
44:59
do tune in to like
45:01
are you feeling safe today will and and and i sort of i do ask
45:06
to receive a message
45:09
if there is instability coming and like so that i i know and i
45:13
can leave and and
45:17
SPEAKER_00: I've been doing this silently with myself,
45:19
SPEAKER_00: so I've never verbalized it to anyone,
45:20
SPEAKER_00: and it's also such a weird thing,
45:22
SPEAKER_00: but I do energetically tune into that aspect,
45:25
SPEAKER_00: and I believe that I will receive the message when it's no longer stable,
45:30
SPEAKER_00: and I will know.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: So that goes to, right, this topic.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but there are different ways of interpreting it.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: So, like, one way of
45:45
Looking at it is that there could be something that we could
45:53
ascribe some kind of
45:55
SPEAKER_01: agency that gives you the answer.
45:57
Or it could be that just you tuning in to the data available
46:02
that tells you if it's
46:04
SPEAKER_01: safe for you or not.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: That is true,
46:07
but I specifically was tuning into the bluff itself and also
46:11
the roots of the
46:12
SPEAKER_00: trees.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: There's this really cool trunk that's dead, but it's still in the ground.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why,
46:20
and I don't know if I've ever even thought about it this way
46:23
until we started doing
46:24
SPEAKER_00: this whole project and experiment and Yula started tuning me into trees,
46:27
SPEAKER_00: period.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: But I really did specifically have the intention of...
46:33
tuning into the bluff itself and the tree trunk that they will
46:39
let me know because
46:40
SPEAKER_00: for some reason,
46:41
SPEAKER_00: I sense that they will have access to that data.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: And that if I'm tuned into it,
46:48
SPEAKER_00: we can have that conversation or like at least messaging system,
46:53
SPEAKER_00: which it sounds wild and it's crazy,
46:56
SPEAKER_00: but there's something there.
46:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't think it sounds wild and crazy.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, to the old version of me, right?
47:05
SPEAKER_00: The version that comes from,
47:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:07
where we come from and all the intellectual and information and
47:12
only data in the
47:13
SPEAKER_00: thinking channel,
47:14
SPEAKER_00: right?
47:14
SPEAKER_00: Like to that part.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is a little on the fringe and yet it makes sense.
47:23
yeah i had an interesting experience i was um at my wilderness
47:29
education module and
47:30
the topic was birds i shared with you and um so we were
47:36
learning about birds
47:38
through exploring and making experiments and one big insight
47:41
for me um also it was
47:45
SPEAKER_02: like okay you feel
47:48
SPEAKER_02: I love watching birds.
47:50
SPEAKER_02: Well, the birds that I have in my garden and the trees anyway.
47:55
But it's always kind of like there's this wall or something and
48:00
they're very distant.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: And then one of the things and practices that we did,
48:05
SPEAKER_02: actually,
48:05
SPEAKER_02: we are sharing common nonverbal communication language.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: Right.
48:10
SPEAKER_02: So one of the things we were like trying to
48:14
not scared of the birds by showing them in our human ways
48:22
through our signaling
48:23
SPEAKER_02: system,
48:24
SPEAKER_02: some of which we share with the birds,
48:26
that we are not dangerous and that we are not staring at them
48:30
and that we are also
48:32
SPEAKER_02: kind of like picking up some stuff from the ground.
48:36
SPEAKER_02: It was so...
48:40
SPEAKER_02: fun.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I guess, yeah.
48:44
SPEAKER_02: And for me,
48:45
SPEAKER_02: it was like,
48:47
SPEAKER_02: wow,
48:47
SPEAKER_02: we're also like,
48:48
SPEAKER_02: we're sharing things,
48:52
SPEAKER_02: we're sharing signals,
48:53
SPEAKER_02: we're sharing information.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's not like, of course, that wasn't with the rock, right?
48:59
SPEAKER_02: But it still was a big highlight for me.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: Wait, that's so cool.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: Can I share what came up for me when you were describing that?
49:08
I just made the connection that giving eye contact to birds may
49:12
not be the right
49:14
SPEAKER_00: human-animal cue,
49:16
SPEAKER_00: and I never thought about that.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm always trying to connect to them with my eyes, and that never works.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: And yesterday,
49:24
my partner verbalized that he can only hold my gaze for a very
49:30
short amount of time
49:31
SPEAKER_00: because for him,
49:32
SPEAKER_00: his experience of my gaze is very intense.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what?
49:36
SPEAKER_00: What is that?
49:37
SPEAKER_00: What is that about?
49:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, because it's not like I'm always.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: But I think there's it just it helped me tune in to.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: this aspect of like seeing each other,
49:48
SPEAKER_00: looking at each other,
49:49
not everyone's nervous system is able to maintain that
49:52
energetic exchange for like
49:55
SPEAKER_00: for a certain amount of time.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: And so now that you talked about the birds,
49:58
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
49:59
SPEAKER_00: oh my God,
50:00
SPEAKER_00: maybe I need to try to not give them eye contact and just be more in the,
50:05
SPEAKER_00: my animal,
50:07
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
50:07
SPEAKER_00: like kind of mirror the,
50:09
SPEAKER_00: like it's safe.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: I wonder what would happen.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: I think I overuse my eyes to tune in,
50:17
but really maybe I need to use some other senses like in the
50:20
physical body to do
50:22
SPEAKER_00: that because that's what they do,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: right?
50:24
SPEAKER_00: They are more in their whole physical body, not just their eyes.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: Like now that we're talking about it and I'm tuning in.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:36
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I think so.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: In the interest of time,
50:39
SPEAKER_02: that was a super interesting conversation and diversion,
50:43
SPEAKER_02: but nonetheless.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: And so I hope everyone is well.
50:50
And the next question and the last question for today is,
50:54
so what does it change?
50:58
SPEAKER_02: experiencing the world as alive.
51:02
SPEAKER_02: And funny that you started kind of touching on this for your experiences.
51:07
SPEAKER_02: But what else?
51:14
SPEAKER_02: Before and after.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't think that for me there was before and after.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: I guess I never stopped.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: There was time when I was...
51:33
SPEAKER_01: more proponent to punish myself for imagining things.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: And then I just said, you know what?
51:43
SPEAKER_01: Like I said,
51:44
I don't want to live in the world without magic that for me is
51:48
the same as I just
51:49
SPEAKER_01: don't want to live in the world that is not alive.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's about meaning.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: It just makes every experience much more meaningful.
52:08
It is like...
52:14
You know all these stories,
52:18
again,
52:20
when something happens...
52:28
SPEAKER_01: like an accident or a tragedy,
52:32
something that a person finds hard to accept or to live through
52:41
the experience.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: And then in the end, when we go through it,
52:53
SPEAKER_01: somehow we're able to see that,
52:57
SPEAKER_01: for example,
52:59
SPEAKER_01: the hypothetical situation,
53:02
the person walks a lot and is really on the brink of the
53:09
burnout and then he or she
53:12
SPEAKER_01: gets into the accident and has to spend several months in bed.
53:20
SPEAKER_01: Because the whole system was not able to sustain that rhythm anymore.
53:26
So something in the system around this person had to create
53:30
this accident.
53:34
to allow for the rest that the person's mind did not allow,
53:40
you know,
53:41
rationally,
53:41
consciously.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: And I don't personally,
53:45
SPEAKER_01: I don't believe in the guardian angels that,
53:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
53:48
SPEAKER_01: like some might interpret it,
53:50
SPEAKER_01: that it's your guardian agent and your guides or whoever,
53:54
SPEAKER_01: some spirits arranged that to happen.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: I believe more that it's this, you know, like self,
54:04
organizing system that arranges itself in order to allow for a
54:14
certain element that
54:16
SPEAKER_01: needs to emerge.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: And in this case, this element is the state of rest for the person.
54:30
SPEAKER_02: A pause, a pivot, a rest, whatever.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: What is the before and after?
54:42
Before this conversation,
54:43
after this conversation,
54:44
or a different before and after?
54:46
SPEAKER_02: Before you accept that the world is alive.
54:51
SPEAKER_02: And maybe you're not there yet, Pauline, but then what does it mean?
54:55
SPEAKER_02: What does it change?
54:56
SPEAKER_02: How does it change...
54:59
SPEAKER_02: your life or the world.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, I think I am there from the energy perspective.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: I've always been there.
55:10
But what it does change because of this conversation and how
55:15
we're engaging with it
55:16
SPEAKER_00: is it changes how I will.
55:21
I guess,
55:22
you know,
55:22
the awareness aspect and how do I engage with the environment?
55:33
Maybe I will consider objects more and we'll have to play with
55:41
it a little bit.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: I have to like tune in a little bit more.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: I remember you told me to start tuning into the ocean and I do,
55:50
SPEAKER_00: but it is a different type of frequency.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: And so...
55:57
SPEAKER_00: It's like a big experiment.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: Also tuning in with birds is weird.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: So like there's...
56:03
I think I need to practice a different way of tuning in to some
56:07
things that maybe
56:08
SPEAKER_00: have other operating systems.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Like the ocean has a different operating system than a human.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: So there's a bird.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: So how do you tune into that operating system?
56:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure, but I want to play with it.
56:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:24
SPEAKER_02: I guess for me, one of the things is...
56:27
was very liberating like was so liberating oh my god it was
56:33
like a big burden off
56:34
my shoulders because big theme my personal and i think actually
56:41
it's applies to a
56:43
lot of people is that we see ourselves as the ultimate force
56:49
although there is a
56:50
SPEAKER_02: lot of blah blah blah on that
56:53
well,
56:53
yes,
56:54
but,
56:54
you know,
56:55
what can you control and what can you not control?
56:58
SPEAKER_02: Until you have this experience,
57:01
SPEAKER_02: you still,
57:02
SPEAKER_02: all your,
57:03
SPEAKER_02: whatever,
57:04
SPEAKER_02: conditioning,
57:05
SPEAKER_02: the whole life of the rational mind in this rational era,
57:14
SPEAKER_02: it nails into you almost that,
57:19
SPEAKER_02: no,
57:19
SPEAKER_02: if something doesn't happen right,
57:21
SPEAKER_02: Then it's up to you, okay?
57:23
SPEAKER_02: Up to you also to fix it.
57:27
It's like for a long time it was just so exhausting and I was
57:31
trying so many things.
57:33
SPEAKER_02: Okay, how about I breathe?
57:35
SPEAKER_02: How about to do this, that?
57:37
SPEAKER_02: It's like a whole job for regulating myself.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden,
57:42
SPEAKER_02: when you see the world as alive,
57:45
SPEAKER_02: when you see getting back to the stones,
57:48
SPEAKER_02: stones have a billion year agenda,
57:51
SPEAKER_02: when you see the ancient intelligence of whatever,
57:57
SPEAKER_02: trees and plants and how they also have
58:02
their agenda i was like whoo sigh of relief wow it's not all up
58:11
to me i just like i
58:13
can take a back seat and relax because in the grand scheme of
58:18
things i am nothing
58:21
i'm just uh riding some huge wave and i do have kind of like of
58:27
course agency some
58:29
SPEAKER_02: agency and how i ride that wave but
58:31
then say just you know relax okay so this was um like really
58:41
really huge yeah that
58:46
i can relate to yeah that that that point of before and after
58:51
did exist in my life
58:53
SPEAKER_01: like when you um
59:00
we discussed in the discussion on trust when you make this leap
59:04
of faith and it's
59:06
coming back to the question of flow life and flow there is this
59:12
certain moment when
59:13
you decide to surrender the control and you stop considering
59:20
yourself as the only
59:22
SPEAKER_01: agent that is responsible for everything that happens in your life and
59:31
SPEAKER_01: It does involve attributing the agency to life itself.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: And you go through...
59:43
SPEAKER_01: At least in my case,
59:46
SPEAKER_01: it was like...
59:51
There was a big period of time when it was just the exercise in
59:56
surrendering
59:57
SPEAKER_01: control.
59:57
SPEAKER_01: And okay, so like...
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: I let myself flow with life.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:00:05
And for me,
1:00:06
that was like,
1:00:08
I believe that this thing is alive and it is bigger than me.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just surrendering to it.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: And it still continues to be constant exercise.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: because I still tend to sometimes try to control things too much when I'm
1:00:30
SPEAKER_01: forgetting to trust in my ability to sustain any experience.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: But it also becomes more and more
1:00:50
SPEAKER_01: the process of co-creation.
1:00:53
Because as I said,
1:00:55
okay,
1:00:56
life itself has an agency,
1:00:59
but I also am an agent of life.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_01: So this flow,
1:01:05
it's the co-creation together of me and all the other things
1:01:10
alive around me and
1:01:12
SPEAKER_01: what I'm connected with.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: And
1:01:16
SPEAKER_01: Going back to the question of what changes if the world is alive,
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: it just becomes much more fun.
1:01:26
Because if there are so many agents you can interact with and
1:01:32
co-create with,
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: and also tuning into the whole data of the system itself that
1:01:43
SPEAKER_01: is alive and self-organizing and devised somehow.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_01: You're like,
1:01:50
SPEAKER_01: wow,
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: there are so many things to play and flow with and have so many different
1:01:58
SPEAKER_01: experiences.
1:02:01
It's much more fun than rather than this constant grain of goal
1:02:06
setting and
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: achieving and demonstrating something.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_00: That really makes a lot of sense.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: A bunch of self-organizing systems with their own.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_00: Agenda is another topic I want to talk about.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_00: That word agenda, like what does that mean?
1:02:27
SPEAKER_00: And also agency, what does that mean?
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: I think that could be a whole other several episodes.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_00: But the image you were drawing really made sense.
1:02:38
all these different things in the field that have their own
1:02:42
self-organizing
1:02:46
SPEAKER_00: programming or frequency or whatever you want to call it.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_00: And then also the bigger system itself.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: And then all of those things coming together and totally makes sense.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_00: It also feels to me, when I made that shift, also felt...
1:03:04
SPEAKER_00: much more relaxing.
1:03:06
It's not like I am this controlling agent that can control all
1:03:11
the very...
1:03:12
SPEAKER_00: No,
1:03:12
I'm just like a small piece of a bunch of other pieces and
1:03:16
we're all doing kind of
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: the best we can as we are interacting with one another.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: And... I think I could have an effect on...
1:03:31
aspect of it the more self-regulated i am the more self-aware i
1:03:36
am the more i do
1:03:38
consider things around me and and their self-organizing
1:03:42
capacities i think there is
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: more agency in that way um but
1:03:49
It also takes away the need to take things personally when
1:03:53
things don't go your way.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: Because it's, listen, there's so many things going on.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: okay,
1:03:58
SPEAKER_00: sometimes the organizing agents are not,
1:04:02
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: this is how things turn out because this is how things came together,
1:04:06
SPEAKER_00: you know?
1:04:07
SPEAKER_00: So it's not necessarily that...
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: This accident had to happen,
1:04:11
but there were lots of things coming together and the accident
1:04:15
happened because
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: also you were on the verge of burnout,
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: So it's not necessarily like, oh, personal.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: It's just there's things beyond our...
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: awareness and ability to comprehend that are all coming together.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_02: And also,
1:04:33
SPEAKER_02: I already need to be wrapping up,
1:04:37
SPEAKER_02: but this is,
1:04:38
SPEAKER_02: I love how it's now turning out where we are at this moment.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think one more thing,
1:04:44
SPEAKER_02: Pauline,
1:04:44
SPEAKER_02: as you were talking again about the accident and what would be happening,
1:04:51
SPEAKER_02: what could be happening there.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_02: I think also as you
1:04:56
acknowledge the agency and aliveness of this world you have
1:05:01
kind of more respect
1:05:04
and a better ability to tuning in what's happening and some
1:05:09
tips like you sitting
1:05:12
on the on the rock I forgot how you called it on the bluff yeah
1:05:18
yeah and it's like
1:05:22
SPEAKER_02: you know you have kind of like more
1:05:26
SPEAKER_02: trust and intuition and your senses,
1:05:30
SPEAKER_02: which you cannot even verbalize,
1:05:32
SPEAKER_02: of course,
1:05:33
SPEAKER_02: because that other categories of beings,
1:05:38
SPEAKER_02: they don't speak your language,
1:05:40
SPEAKER_02: but there is some signaling going on.
1:05:44
So that opens up actually a much better way to also flow and
1:05:50
adjust the direction.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_02: Because you now respect this major source of information and,
1:06:00
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
1:06:00
SPEAKER_02: are more respectful and attentive to it.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: And you have more access.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_00: Remember when I started with you have more access,
1:06:10
SPEAKER_00: like more intelligence is available,
1:06:13
SPEAKER_00: even though there's more resources required,
1:06:15
SPEAKER_00: but there's still there's more intelligence available,
1:06:17
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
1:06:18
SPEAKER_00: and definitely that trust piece.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_00: Because when I'm tuning into the bluff and that tree trunk,
1:06:25
SPEAKER_00: I am trusting that they are hearing me and we're having a conversation,
1:06:29
SPEAKER_00: like a communication of sorts,
1:06:30
SPEAKER_00: and that I will receive a message.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_00: So also to your point, Ir, with the trust piece.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so...
1:06:45
SPEAKER_02: I could go on, but let's wrap it up.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what are we living with, each of us?
1:06:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm living with rocks as Earth's historians.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_01: I love this part.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was really cool.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm leaving with I'm going to play more with the things in the field.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
1:07:22
I'm living with this really good kind of feeling and having fun
1:07:29
that I guess maybe
1:07:34
I didn't really it was more challenging than fun at the
1:07:39
beginning because this is
1:07:41
SPEAKER_02: For me also, I do not usually talk about this with people.
1:07:47
And so verbalizing some stuff as if for the first time,
1:07:51
it maybe felt a little bit challenging.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_02: But then there was this flow, I guess.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: So I had a lot of fun discussing it today.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_02: And maybe it wasn't...
1:08:07
SPEAKER_02: perfect.
1:08:07
And there's,
1:08:08
of course,
1:08:09
there are so many more things to be said about this topic.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_02: But it was a cool start.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_00: I totally agree with you.
1:08:19
SPEAKER_00: I felt like we were very careful.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_00: There were some,
1:08:23
we weren't that flowy for like almost two thirds of this
1:08:27
conversation because it
1:08:28
SPEAKER_00: was,
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:08:30
SPEAKER_00: it was a different type of topic to engage with.
1:08:32
SPEAKER_00: I felt like, oh,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm not really, I don't know how to connect to this.
1:08:37
I don't know where the kind of the receptor is for this
1:08:40
conversation in some ways.
1:08:41
And then eventually towards the end,
1:08:43
something shifted and I was like,
1:08:45
oh,
1:08:46
here it is.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_00: Here's the flow.
1:08:47
SPEAKER_00: And things started flowing more between us.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: I wonder what that trigger point was in the conversation.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think...
1:09:03
This topic is definitely a big one and there are a lot of more
1:09:10
aspects that could
1:09:12
SPEAKER_01: be discussed and I hope that we'll discuss them.
1:09:17
Wait for the fun we will have when we talk about the origins of
1:09:21
the world.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_01: That will be fun.
1:09:33
SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, Kurilsen, thank you so much for this discussion.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_02: And thank you, everyone who was listening.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.
1:09:46
Hopefully,
1:09:46
also got to experience some things to play with us and to sense
1:09:51
with us.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_02: And till next time.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_02: Bye-bye.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_02: How was it for you?
1:10:04
We believe that the more people experience group flow together,
1:10:08
the better off we all are.
1:10:10
SPEAKER_02: More connected, more creative, more alive.
1:10:14
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1:10:17
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1:10:38
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1:10:40
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