Latest / Authentic Living / Seeking Calm Amongst the Chaos with Dr. Karyne Messina

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Seeking Calm Amongst the Chaos with Dr. Karyne Messina · Authentic Living

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  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Everyone, it's, Roxanne Derhodge of authentically being with Roxanne.
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  Thanks for joining me again today.
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  Today, I have a special guest, Karen Messina, here with us and Karen has done a lot of
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  fantastic work in in the in the field of psychology and, has published several books.
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  So, Karen, thanks so much for coming on today.
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  Thank you very much for asking me.
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  It's a pleasure.
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  Thank you.
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  So I'm gonna read a little bit about her bio, but the most of it will be in the show notes.
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  If you missed anything, everything's gonna be in there.
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  She The first book was, published by Rutledge in 2019, and it was titled misogyny,
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  projective, identification, and mentalization All big words.
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  We're gonna talk about all that.
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  The psychoanalytic, social, and institutional manifestations.
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  And her second book book was published by International Psycho Therapy Institute
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  aftermath, healing from the Trump presidency, which I'm sure there's a lot of need for that,
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  not just, obviously in the US where Karen's located, but of course, globally, I think it's
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  impacted so so many people.
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  And her 4th book, it's it's not me, it's you, how narcissists get what they want, on how to
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  stop them.
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  And it focuses on relationships between narcissists and projective identification, and
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  it'll be available in 2022.
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  So maybe Karen, you might have to come back and visit us again.
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  So, Karen, tell me, okay, tell me a little bit about, you know, did you always wanna do
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  psychotherapy?
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  Was that thing that you kinda grew up newing that you wanted to do or kinda what is your
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  story about, and your process and the doing the kind of work that you do?
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  Well, I grew up in the Florida Keys at a time where it was safe to roam and be curious and
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  had a little boat that I would take to a little island And it it was okay to do that sort of
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  thing.
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  Then, parents are so worried and and rightfully so.
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  I understand it, but I had very loving parents.
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  I was an only child and it had a lot of opportunity.
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  You'd be curious.
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  And as I said, 2 at floor.
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  And, I somehow, I used to climb trees a lot too and and take it as much as a little I don't
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  know how can found these thoughts were, but, I I figured out my father had a restaurant and
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  people were either coming to the keys to go to something or to get away from something in the
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  northwest or wherever.
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  And so I said, listen to people talk.
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  And I realized that everything of or this is what I found as a child, and it's too
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  believable to say everything a person is is an accumulation of very experiences up to that
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  very any moment in time.
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  So somehow I read some book about some helping person, I I don't know if they had books about
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  psychologists then, but I thought, I helping people by listening and and somehow it just
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  caught my attention.
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  Since I was probably in the 4th or 5th grade.
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  Oh, a long a long time then.
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  So you figured out some thing that a lot of people struggle with for a very long time at
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  what path they're gonna take.
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  Where's the trees?
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  Just
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  So trees in the ocean that I've mentioned the keys, and I could see how exploring us there.
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  I grew up in Trinidad and the same thing, in the islands, you know, just roaming and, you
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  know, the the the sea and the, you know, the sand and the shells, all that stuff.
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  And just,
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  like, yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  It's it's just a a an an amazing place to kind of evolve, especially with a young mind, and I
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  absolutely love the keys as well.
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  So let's let's talk a little bit about kind of the I'm gonna say the space we're in, Karen,
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  and, you know, you and I, we we sit behind closed doors, and we talk to people, about the
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  deepest darkest things that are happening in their lives.
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  And I often say it's a privilege that, you know, when you really stop and think what we
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  do, we we really do have a lot of responsibility in really creating a space that
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  allows people to be themselves.
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  Absolutely.
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  And I'm gonna talk to you a little bit, before Karen and I got them, we're talking a little
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  bit about kind of the space we're in, the time we're in 2020, 21, and kind of you know, the
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  whole concept of the space that the world is in.
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  So, Karen, I want you to kind of give me a sense of what you're thinking with between,
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  obviously, your past presidency and that time and that the chaos, the global pandemic and
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  impact on on every one of us, like where I am, we're in a a second lockdown, the violence and
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  the, you know, unfortunate things we're seeing with race and just the, you know, the fear
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  state that people are living in, what how do you find that that's affecting people in your
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  space, that you see.
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  Absolutely.
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  That's a very good question.
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  I think people are really scared and they're anxious.
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  And part of that has to do with living in a time that nobody's lived in before.
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  COVID created a sort of a base for that.
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  And then what happened with the election and what what's happening now with all the overt
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  racism that's been there all along, but it there's now something that's more palpable
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  about it.
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  So I think people wanna get involved, but I think there are some who are hesitant because
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  they don't exactly know how to do that.
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  I think the most important thing, is that people wanna heal from the damage that was
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  created during the trump administration, and Donald Trump didn't start all of this.
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  He's he's not the person who invented racism, but somehow I think that people were given a
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  they were given permission to say things that they wouldn't have said before.
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  They might have thought some racist things, but a lot of people wouldn't have said it.
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  And I I say to people sometimes that it's as if they got a license.
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  Got a license to be more violent.
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  They got a license to be more abusive.
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  They got a license to say whatever they want and to people from other countries.
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  And so I think that somehow we have to come together and heal as a nation.
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  And that's that's actually what mentalization is.
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  It's listening to each other in an atmosphere of respect.
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  Not necessarily agreeing.
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  I don't think we're gonna get or Republicans to become Democrats or vice versa, but just to be
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  decent to each other.
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  In one of my books I talk about, how how do you have things giving again with people who
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  haven't been speaking for 4 or 4 plus years.
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  But how do you do that?
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  I think that, just being respectful of someone else's opinion is really important.
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  If they get out of hand, then I think maybe they're disinvited from the table But
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  That's right.
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  You have to be able to listen to other ideas, and somehow sometimes that's very hard to do.
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  So what do you think some of the core fundamental things that need to be healed from
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  that era?
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  Like, what is it?
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  Like, in your book, your second book when you said the aftershock of how the trumpian,
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  projected identification and, resurgence of populism are changing the landscape all over
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  the world.
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  Yeah.
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  And I got writing a book about populism all over the world, but I think it's important
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  first to be talk for me to talk about just very briefly, projective identification.
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  Because it happens all the time in all kinds of ways, Trump was a master at it, but, another
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  another term that I use instead is blame shifting.
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  So I think so I think we all know that Whether you like Donald Trump or not, if it, in a
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  moment of silence with yourself, I think people know that he blamed everyone else.
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  It was never his fault.
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  He never took responsibility.
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  He never said he was sorry.
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  He was always the other guy, whether it was women or whether it was Biden, Biden's Biden's
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  son, who whoever he was talking about, he sort of he loved people, until you decided they were
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  no good, then it was their fault.
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  So projective identification is projecting something about yourself that you don't like
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  and then say, It's not me.
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  It's you.
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  You're you're the one who did it.
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  The problem with this is that the recipient of the projection or the person who has received
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  the blame can often start to feel that they are actually, damaged or that they they are doing
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  what the other person is saying.
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  It the projection coming from the first person, person hanging with Trump, but someone else
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  start to believe, well, is he right?
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  How could that be?
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  A good example is domestic violence.
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  Her man comes home.
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  He's just ranting raving.
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  Maybe he had a bad day at work.
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  And he comes home and he starts ranting and raving about his wife.
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  And maybe he's shove some plates on the floor and tells her she's a sloppy housewife.
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  Well, it's really it's really about him.
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  But if someone's vulnerable, they can think, oh, am I really messy?
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  Did I really do that?
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  So over time, that just really seeps in.
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  And they even have a major problem
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  So it's it's so some of the traits of a narcissist, maybe we should some maybe some
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  people listening wouldn't know some of those basic things.
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  So, of course, blame shifting is was one of them.
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  Not being able to, listen and understand your role in maybe an interaction or conflict.
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  What are some of the, yeah, no empathy No empathy.
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  They often, have well, they have to be right.
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  They don't apologize.
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  All of the things that, they're very boastful.
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  Right.
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  Very arrogant.
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  Kinda grand use, and they're thinking that they're better they're better than others.
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  Better than everybody else.
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  Mhmm.
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  Probably including you.
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  If you're associated with an amendment, if they'd be okay, but, they also underneath this
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  synvenir of bravado and now being mister Tuft or Liz Tuft, they really are pretty insecure.
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  But they can't let anybody see this.
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  So they have all these ways of fighting off this deep insecurity.
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  I don't know if people often realize that, but I think well, I'm not trump's therapist.
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  So we all know people who don't feel good about themselves, but you wouldn't know it from their
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  words.
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  They they talk about how wonderful they are, how great they they have the best car, the best
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  house, the best cysts, the best that But most of the time, that's the cover.
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  Right.
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  Because so they're so busy, creating the facade.
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  So that they need to maintain this facade because the fear, like you said, is that that
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  the thin veil would really show that small little part of that that part of them that
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  feels so small that they're they're working arduously hard to ensure that nobody sees that.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And so, of course, you know, and you think of what's, was happening, you know, in the US with
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  so many people were in pain just by, unfortunately, like you said, it was like an
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  implicit I was I sometimes people would say explicit in siding using some coercive things
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  that people didn't even know they were in the kind of the malaise of it.
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  Right.
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  Right.
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  Right?
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  And it was nonstop, like, not ongoing.
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  And and, you know, we would you kind of look at things, yeah, and I know looking at or just
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  having people talk about it, they go can you believe, you know, that was the thing.
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  Can you believe what?
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  And then we'd be like, oh my god.
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  Like, is is nobody gonna rail this man Is nobody gonna grab his phone from him?
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  It's, you know, telling me he can't tweet that.
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  It it would just Yeah.
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  After a while, it was kind of, you know, you kinda looked and you said, I think we're kinda
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  like in a movie.
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  And so instead of, like, you know, hit eject or signing myself, but hitting, okay, this has got
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  to end.
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  And obviously, it took a lot from that to get.
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  So I think a lot of people, you know, globally, not just within the US, everybody was just
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  really fearful of watching the way things were going down.
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  Absolutely.
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  And what I find me more and more as I research and write this next book on populism that this
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  is, like, a trumpian populism is it's burgeoning.
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  It's it's emerging all over the world.
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  Now some of it was already there, but in some places, in in well, Eastern Europe, the
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  Philippines, in various places.
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  It's just popping up in it.
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  It looks like a carbon copy with cultural differences, but it looks like a carbon copy of
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  what happened here in the last 4 years.
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  And it's really scary.
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  For one thing, I just happened to see yesterday that reporters are, they're getting attacked in
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  various places by police.
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  There were 7 Minneapolis uh-uh, reporter was arrested, not for anything outrageous, but just
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  because the person was there in in a protest.
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  And so one thing that one common element in populous countries is that free Prescott shut
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  down.
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  And when I saw that reporters were getting, and I read some things last June, but, or and into
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  the fall about this, what I saw saw this happening, it it just made me think.
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  Where are we going?
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  So tell me tell me a little bit of a populous environments because I'm not, you know, I have
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  limited knowledge, and I'm wondering if, you know, people listening.
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  You're saying it's it's showing up.
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  So you're saying a concept where potentially this these kinds of behaviors are showing up
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  more in sub cultural context, like smaller environments where people are being led by
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  somebody that's where their vision is skewed.
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  Is that what populous is?
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  It's it's basically, I think there are a couple of, consistent elements One is it's basically
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  the poor versus the elite, but it gets very tricky because the person who comes in to,
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  quote, unquote, save the poor actually then becomes very corrupt and very tutorial and very
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  authoritarian because that person wants to they want to be the king of the they wanna rule the
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  land.
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  The king of the castle.
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  So they come in in alignment with the with the impoverished or the the person, the poor, like
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  you said, and they maybe do certain things to kind of gain a grounding they gain populous,
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  you know, in in sectors that potentially would not have maybe potentially listened to their
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  rhetoric in the past.
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  And then somewhere within that space, this you start to see a shift where there is autocratic
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  behavior taking over at some point.
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  Absolutely.
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  And then everything is taken over by the state.
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  Sometimes more quickly, and sometimes it's not as as quickly, but media is taken over.
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  Schools are taken over.
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  Universities, libraries, museums, everything becomes state state run.
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  So, there there aren't private entities for the most part.
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  That's why when I saw this this, attack on reporters, I was so concerned because I would
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  say we're heading in that direction.
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  But that piece didn't look very good.
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  What's concerning if you have after what's, you know, with the trump era to see this And
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  obviously, it's, it's an area you've been, obviously, researching and doing work with for
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  a long time.
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  So is it that you're looking at the collective and being concerned about how, power can
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  implicit, explicitly in this way, case impact people's psyche and that that can impact
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  overall our society, kind of the the violence that we saw in Washington, you know, the, you
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  know, the black lives matter and kind of how that went and, you know, what really was the
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  truth behind some of the riots?
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  Was it incited by you know, we've heard so many things, but the then the thing becomes, you
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  know, at the end of the day, we're we're in a mess.
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  Right?
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  And decide for what is real, what is not, which, you know, what is good, what is bad,
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  and, you know, what side of the fence should I stay on?
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  Yeah.
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  The other thing I I wanted to mention, I think the other component in in in populous countries
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  is that they're all anti immigration, which just by definition makes the very racist
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  because there's somebody in some group of people they wanna keep out.
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  It's it's not necessarily all people or visitors, but they they targeted group for one
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  reason or the other based other culture.
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  And then that group is is becomes, like, subpar, and they can be very brutal to these
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  people.
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  I mean, they don't have the rights that people in the country have.
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  They they often don't have adequate housing, whereas they help other people who are poor.
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  So it it's really it's really strikingly bad.
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  If there's such a praise,
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  So with that in mind and with what I would say, you know, now the shift in power, How do how do
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  how do we heal from this?
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  Well, I think people have to start talking opposing groups as I was suggesting before, but
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  I think that needs to be operationalized.
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  How is it that we get groups of people to who have different views about how the country
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  should be run?
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  And I'm talking about level headed people, not people on their fringe, but how do we get them
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  to talk?
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  It it's vitally important to let other people have a voice even if you disagree with it.
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  So I think that we have to start organizing somehow groups of people who get together and
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  talk about talk about their feelings about this.
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  Their political views.
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  Their views on gun control.
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  You don't have to like it.
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  And gun control is particularly, a very difficult thing to talk about because of all
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  the violence that has increased lately, but people basically, people just need to be able
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  to state their views.
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  Right.
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  And that's the part of the healing process, right, because here, we're saying everybody's
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  in fear.
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  Right?
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  All the the the, you know, major disruptions that we've seen whether in your country or just
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  globally, and we're not seeing any ending sites.
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  And then we know as human beings, what we what do we need?
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  We need pockets of certainty.
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  We need to kind of feel like we have some semblance of control, but that's something
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  that's been, I would say, elusive is probably not the right word at best.
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  You know, we've been living in this, in this limbo, and it continues over and over again.
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  You know, like I said, we just recently extended a lockdown that started 3 weeks ago,
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  you know, here in Ontario, Canada, you know, yet again.
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  Right?
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  So it's it's gonna take a a while for us to feel I can use the word safe, and you and I
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  know what that means, but it's a collective safety that we've we've lost
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  There is one concept that I've I've heard about lately that I think makes sense, and I don't
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  know about the group per se.
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  I just know about how they're or how they came together.
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  I I believe Lincoln had this use the term better angels in a speech.
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  And so I think they were known as the better angels.
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  Now they've become, I believe, the brave angels or braver angels that basically there are
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  people and this target I think in 2000 around the time Trump came into office.
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  So it predates the insurrection, and it predates some of the very difficult things that
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  happened.
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  But the idea was to to get Democrat and Republicans, the same number as I understand
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  it.
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  This is just from what I've read.
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  So if they have a group, they have the same number of Democrats than they have Republicans.
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  And they get together in various cities and talk about very heated, but important issues.
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  So something based on that type of model I think needs to get started where there are
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  activists who will put this together, who will organize us, activists and organizers who will
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  put these kinds of groups together.
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  There are lots of things people could do.
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  But I think we need to do something that's tangible.
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  Mhmm.
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  We could talk globally about we should do this or we should do that.
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  I I think on the ground setting things up is gonna be really important.
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  So starting microscopically, right, like a bit, you know, a bit at a time and, as, like, with
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  this uncertainty and what I think what it's done to the overall psyche of of most of us is
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  that, you know, what is the new normal, first of all, which whatever that is.
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  But, again, just starting at the group, let's use the word grassroots where you have these,
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  subsets of people that's willing to almost, like, in a way, create a space of safety to
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  mediate, on some pretty big topics and going from, like, in your case, state to state, or
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  you know, city to city just kind of talking about really and having people use their voice
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  again, right, like, which is what I talk about a lot with about being your authentic stuff and
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  your voice.
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  Right?
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  So like you said, whether you're on this side of the fence or this side of the fence, and
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  you're gonna be polarized, potentially, how do you bridge that gap so that people can feel
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  heard and, like, And, I mean, this may be trivializing, but to agree to disagree, but at
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  least have a respect Yeah.
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  To be able to go back to, you know, kind of people living together again versus there being
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  such, I'm gonna say volatility, which, like you said, has erupted for a short of such a long
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  period of time when you and I know as a psychotherapist that if you don't address, the
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  space that with those with avenues or disillusions or these bombs that have gone on,
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  you can't move on.
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  You have to introduce this first.
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  Be able to kind of recreate a platform, to move forward from.
• 25:26
  Yeah.
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  I think one of the main purposes is to talk, but also to build a sense of community again.
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  So many people feel like they don't have a community anymore.
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  So if you're with people in a community forum or a group forum and you're talking about
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  various ideas, you get to know the person on the right and the left, and you might think,
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  would you?
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  This is a sensible guy.
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  Or this is the this woman makes makes a lot of sense.
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  So it's like really knowing people in your community.
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  I think that's sort of what what is the kind of key element that might make this work.
• 26:07
  It's it's great to talk to people in various cities but if you meet regularly to talk to
• 26:14
  people who you get to know and you realize, well, this person of color, this is a great
• 26:19
  guy.
• 26:21
  I've been all my life.
• 26:22
  I mean, that's I think how you break down some walls and racism as well.
• 26:27
  When you you meet a person who's from a different culture and you realize this is a
• 26:33
  this is a family member.
• 26:34
  This is a wonderful person.
• 26:37
  Just like my family.
• 26:38
  So
• 26:39
  right.
• 26:40
  Because if you're not, spending time with someone, you you may you may not may not
• 26:45
  recognize this much basic affinity, because, you know, if you're, say, for instance, I'm
• 26:51
  with you guys from the south and, you know, the north and all those differences and, you know,
• 26:58
  whereas here in Canada, we still, we still have the same kind of problems, but we're just
• 27:03
  there's just not the great divide, but it exists, you know, with, with our, you know, our
• 27:09
  parity issues or, or, cultural issues is they're the same, but it's not as height it's
• 27:15
  heightens, but it's not as heighten as public, we see out there with you, you know, in the US.
• 27:21
  Yeah.
• 27:22
  So let's talk a little bit about the people that seeing right now with all the things we're
• 27:27
  talking, which we've got.
• 27:28
  We're at I I love that you've done this work, Karen, you know, because I think oftentimes
• 27:36
  people don't stop to think about that.
• 27:38
  Right?
• 27:38
  We kinda have a perspective, but to look at it, and to really deconstruct it and say, wow.
• 27:44
  This is this is our time.
• 27:45
  We are we are in the history books, aren't we?
• 27:47
  Like, you know, this time is going to be, you know, it's gonna be interesting, you know, with
• 27:52
  my grandchildren or great grandchildren, you know, when to have these conversations because
• 27:57
  we're actually living through this and we don't know what to do and, you know, you know, how I
• 28:03
  I was doing an interview earlier today with a CEO and, you know, we were talking about fact
• 28:08
  that trust was needed before, but trust was a concept, and now it has to be a reality.
• 28:12
  Absolutely.
• 28:14
  It's brought us to our knees in that we want deeper things even though we're in fear.
• 28:23
  Absolutely.
• 28:25
  I think people well, as I as I said earlier, because of the pandemic and because of the
• 28:34
  insurrection, the violence that's erupting more frequently or so it seems I I think people are
• 28:43
  really frightened, but they don't wanna remain frightened.
• 28:47
  They wanna come out of their houses.
• 28:50
  Some are beginning to feel a bit of relief because there's an end in sight with COVID.
• 28:56
  Hopefully, and I think that they what I am hearing is they wanna get involved in something
• 29:02
  where there's meaning.
• 29:04
  So it's it's about They wanna be authentic.
• 29:07
  They don't wanna fake it anymore.
• 29:09
  I hear people say, I I don't wanna just go out with the Joneses or the this group of that
• 29:16
  group just to go out.
• 29:17
  I wanna go out with people who really mean something to me.
• 29:21
  So when you start thinking about your community and who you wanna associate yourself with, then
• 29:28
  that also leads to who you wanna be yourself.
• 29:32
  I think that there's gonna be soul searching, who I really wanna be without all the frills,
• 29:40
  And that, of course, is the essence of authenticity.
• 29:45
  Mhmm.
• 29:46
  And and on an individual basis, I often, think of VW when it cuts true self and false self.
• 29:58
  I his idea.
• 29:59
  He came up with this and I believe it was sixties.
• 30:02
  It could have been a little bit before that.
• 30:05
  But his idea was, well, a true self is somebody engaged in life doing what they want to do.
• 30:12
  Mhmm.
• 30:12
  But they have a passion for.
• 30:15
  Joseph Campbell, I think, called it in the 16 sixties following your bliss, but doing what
• 30:21
  you really have, a real deep desire to do.
• 30:27
  If you do that and you're true to yourself and you're not listening to this one or that one or
• 30:33
  parents or spouses, significant others say, no.
• 30:37
  You ought to do this instead.
• 30:39
  Mhmm.
• 30:40
  Yeah.
• 30:40
  That that's being Well, that's accessing your true self.
• 30:46
  What happens is that people wanna be they wanna belong They wanna be approved of.
• 30:53
  They wanna be part of a group.
• 30:55
  And I'm not criticizing any of that, but that's what leads people to this false self state
• 31:02
  where they're doing things that other people want them to do.
• 31:06
  Not what they really what they wanna do themselves.
• 31:09
  Sometimes it there's some examples that come to my mind.
• 31:12
  It can be with very little things.
• 31:15
  Like, someone will save couples.
• 31:16
  They'll say, well, when we go out to dinner, I never say where I really wanna go.
• 31:21
  I never tell.
• 31:23
  My significant other way I wanna go.
• 31:24
  I just get inside, and I will say, well, You have no you have no opinion about what you
• 31:30
  wanna eat.
• 31:31
  I don't know if they were, oh, yeah, but it's not that big of a thing.
• 31:36
  Well, but that happens if it's happening in that on that level, it's probably happening in
• 31:41
  other areas too where other people are directing your life.
• 31:44
  And so I get people to start with very small things.
• 31:49
  Maybe when you're asked next time where you'd like to go to dinner.
• 31:52
  Maybe you'd have to have an opinion because maybe you're in the mood for Chinese food and
• 31:56
  maybe you're not.
• 31:58
  Or maybe you've had a Chinese food one too many times, and it's time to make it shit.
• 32:02
  But but maybe you want a good pizza.
• 32:05
  So so you think that people because we've been locked off from all the things that distract I
• 32:11
  wonder what your thoughts are at this, that it's really would you say it's brought people
• 32:16
  to to come to terms in the quietness of what makes them authentic?
• 32:23
  And do you think most people are feeling that, or are you finding that people are going the
• 32:26
  other way when they're trying to attract with every kind of dysfunctional elements that they
• 32:33
  can.
• 32:34
  I think this is across the board as there has been, quite an increase in domestic violence
• 32:41
  since the pandemic started.
• 32:43
  So I think it's working well for people who have a good relationship various people, a
• 32:49
  number of people say they're closer to a significant other, but that's only if the
• 32:55
  dynamic is working.
• 32:56
  If it's not things are they're probably not thinking about a true self if they're having
• 33:03
  terrible problems.
• 33:05
  With their their the person they're living with.
• 33:08
  And it's also been very hard on people with children.
• 33:12
  Yes.
• 33:13
  Because and I think it's it's not just mother's father's.
• 33:17
  I have fathers who call me from their cars.
• 33:20
  Because they've been home they've been working homeschooling their kids.
• 33:24
  They get a little bit of a break.
• 33:25
  They think they can run out and get a little piece for 50 minutes, and then they run back
• 33:31
  and do another assignment.
• 33:33
  So it's been really hard for families when they've had to nobody really signed up to be
• 33:38
  somebody in the workforce and to be a teacher and to take care of all the things.
• 33:45
  One has to take care of to run a family.
• 33:47
  So there there are plenty of real life things that have distracted people.
• 33:53
  But I think when things settle down, when kids are back at school, when there is more of a
• 33:59
  routine again and and people do the work they do.
• 34:02
  However, they do it.
• 34:04
  I think there will be some soul searching.
• 34:08
  One aside, but, it just makes me think about permanent change versus, temporary change.
• 34:17
  So in 3 years, will everybody be back in the same rat race that they were in, or will there
• 34:23
  be something different?
• 34:25
  I watched something, a documentary on the planet, and the planet profited, the
• 34:33
  environment profited, from COVID because in so many cities, the skies bright and the animals
• 34:41
  have come out and they're mating more and they're it's just amazing what the environment
• 34:48
  has, what's happened with the environment.
• 34:52
  There was one young man who was a photographer in India, and he hadn't seen the Himalay of the
• 34:58
  mountains before.
• 35:00
  But he he was just shocked.
• 35:01
  He went to this building.
• 35:02
  He was able to check this this beautiful mountain range that he hadn't been able to see
• 35:08
  for his whole life in person.
• 35:10
  So will people mister question is, will people take advantage of this opportunity to change a
• 35:19
  bit, and nobody's gonna change a 100%, but to capture this when our environment is not in the
• 35:26
  greatest shape, but our planet will they make some permanent changes.
• 35:31
  And so I think the same idea holds true for families?
• 35:36
  Are they gonna earn businesses?
• 35:38
  Are they going to do something different with their employees?
• 35:41
  Are they gonna allow people to work remotely, or is everybody in 3 years gonna be right back
• 35:46
  where they were?
• 35:47
  So I think that's a question that we all really have to answer.
• 35:52
  Was it?
• 35:52
  It's interesting that you talk about nature.
• 35:54
  Right?
• 35:54
  Cause he, you know, I've read, you know, different things where they say, like,
• 35:57
  naturally, when you when you slow, right, and then you look around, I I back onto the woods
• 36:02
  where I live.
• 36:03
  And I don't think I've ever seen that many birds you know, I'm back onto a golf course.
• 36:09
  So of course, there's a lot of pesticides and stuff.
• 36:11
  Obviously, there's a bit of a brush but, you know, I was at a a friend's place, not too far
• 36:18
  from here, and she also backs on to the woods and, all of a sudden, and she was in a condo.
• 36:24
  So she I'm I'm a little bit removed from the golf course, but she's kinda close.
• 36:28
  And all of a sudden out of nowhere, there was like 5 deer, and they they kept coming closer,
• 36:34
  Karen.
• 36:34
  And I was like, we're like, I'm like, I said to my friend, I can't believe this is happening.
• 36:40
  So we We slowed.
• 36:41
  We moved quietly.
• 36:43
  Nope.
• 36:44
  And it was such a name, and they kept coming closer.
• 36:50
  There was 3 babies, and it looked like I'm gonna see my mom and dad or 2 moms or whatever.
• 36:55
  And we we thought, okay.
• 36:57
  We're gonna, you know, try to feed them, but we're, of course, doing it, you know, in a very
• 37:01
  slight way.
• 37:02
  And they just state, and we were, like, blown away in all and I've lived in this home for,
• 37:09
  like, 25 years, and I'd never experienced something.
• 37:12
  I was like, I was profoundly.
• 37:15
  I thought, okay, universe.
• 37:16
  Thank you for letting me have this experience, because they got so close and they stayed.
• 37:22
  You know, so it's amazing what's happening.
• 37:24
  Right?
• 37:24
  And if we could learn from some things naturally that are happening, in nature,
• 37:31
  really, like, to your point, yes, we were in the we're going through a lot of adversity, but
• 37:36
  there's so much beauty to that's being shown to us in a different
• 37:40
  And, and, B, what you said is being shared.
• 37:45
  That feeling is being shared by people all over the world.
• 37:49
  If they're seeing nature deer, various other animals are are coming into communities.
• 37:56
  It's it's really pretty phenomenal.
• 37:58
  So people have had the same experience you're talking about.
• 38:01
  There there's one place I'm not exactly sure where it where it is, but, so tribal people
• 38:12
  planted, food that they they they, grew to eat And the elephants were coming into into the
• 38:23
  villages at night, and they were taking the food.
• 38:26
  And they thought of something that was very clever.
• 38:28
  They planted an area just for the elephants and and the elephants just went to their area.
• 38:36
  They never went back to a place where the people's food was planted That that's pretty
• 38:42
  phenomenal.
• 38:43
  That's a that's a fascinating story, Gary.
• 38:46
  Wow.
• 38:47
  You know, and so I think as much as we, you know, when we talk about, like you said, the
• 38:52
  populace of what is, and all the things that we've all gone through is that there are such
• 38:59
  you know, such beauty around us and things that we can notice and probably some natural rules
• 39:03
  of nature, which we, we often hear about, right?
• 39:06
  Like, that we can it get more a bit more entuned.
• 39:09
  And I think that's what's happened.
• 39:11
  I found, like as I've coached, certain people, some people are getting it, and they're they're
• 39:17
  opening up to a lots of different things.
• 39:19
  And then, unfortunately, people that are unable or uncomfortable with slowing and you know, you
• 39:28
  know, coming to grips with a crazy monkey in their brain, and they're distracting over and
• 39:33
  over again.
• 39:33
  Those seem to the people that, are employing more, dysfunctional strategies and that are
• 39:39
  making things worse in their life.
• 39:41
  And so it's it seems to be like it's like a bit of a divide that way.
• 39:46
  You know?
• 39:47
  What I'd like to say, I'm a realist, but I'm also an optimist.
• 39:52
  I I think there could be hope If people really have had time, if they still have time to
• 40:00
  really assess what they really want in life, what's really important versus all of the
• 40:06
  things people do just to keep up with us, the saying goes to Jones is, but it really really
• 40:13
  decide what's important for them as individuals, for their families.
• 40:15
  I think that this could be a new beginning.
• 40:15
  Now maybe that's where ful thinking, but I hope it is for some time.
• 40:24
  I'm I'm I'm with you, Karen.
• 40:25
  I'm hoping it that it is.
• 40:27
  You know, I was going to my closet today, and I thought I hadn't worn a dress in a while.
• 40:30
  And I thought today, I feel like wearing a you know, it's it's so interesting.
• 40:33
  I'm going to my clothes, and I have so much clothes.
• 40:35
  And I think, you know, how I've shifted even Right?
• 40:40
  Like and I'm thinking and I love the dress I have, and I haven't worn it probably in about a
• 40:43
  year and a half.
• 40:44
  And I thought and it didn't I was kind of overwhelmed with all that was in my closet
• 40:49
  because I thought, do I need all of this?
• 40:55
  Yeah.
• 40:55
  Truly.
• 40:56
  Yes.
• 40:56
  We all like nice, pretty things once in a while, but I looked at the extent of what I was
• 41:00
  looking at, and I thought This doesn't make sense anymore.
• 41:05
  I know.
• 41:05
  I had a similar experience.
• 41:07
  I I moved into a house during COVID.
• 41:12
  So some some of my clothes ended up in a downstairs bedroom closet, and everything else
• 41:19
  is was upstairs.
• 41:20
  It was put upstairs, and that's where it stayed.
• 41:24
  I haven't touched those things.
• 41:26
  I've been wearing what's in the downstairs closet.
• 41:29
  Washing it.
• 41:29
  Where are you again?
• 41:30
  And I've had the same realization too.
• 41:32
  I really need all of that stuff in the upstairs closet.
• 41:35
  I think the answer is no.
• 41:37
  I think I think you're right as well.
• 41:39
  So for people listening, like, we've talked, you know, we started off very macro and I'm
• 41:46
  gonna say a bit I'm gonna use the word dark because if we were to really sit with her
• 41:51
  feelings and I know you, you and I, you know, we We are in the space where you should sit and
• 41:56
  really sink into what you're feeling.
• 41:58
  There's a lot going on.
• 42:00
  But if there are people out there that are really just saying, you know, I'm sad.
• 42:05
  I, you know, I hear what you're saying, but I I'm struggling.
• 42:10
  What are some One a couple of tips that you could give them, Karen, from from your wisdom
• 42:14
  and expertise to, to guide them to the spaces that we've been talking about.
• 42:21
  Well, I think some people could do this by themselves, and some people need a guide.
• 42:28
  Mhmm.
• 42:29
  If people can do it by themselves in a quiet time or place where they have a moment to just
• 42:37
  kind of take an self inventory of, you know, where they've been.
• 42:42
  Some people like to write these things could be written in a journal, but where they've been
• 42:47
  and where they wanna go.
• 42:49
  And if they wanna go someplace that they haven't been, how are they gonna get there?
• 42:55
  Like, what are the goals?
• 42:58
  How how what do they have to do to change to be able to live the life they want to live?
• 43:05
  And some people could do that by themselves.
• 43:08
  I think I think other people need a guide, and and often a guide as a therapist.
• 43:14
  And it's sort of like going.
• 43:17
  It could be you 70.
• 43:18
  It could be any any park, any place in the world.
• 43:22
  Yes.
• 43:22
  These days, you can get your phone out.
• 43:25
  You can get some kind of Google map or some other map for that particular place or an app.
• 43:31
  And and you can go through that forest or the that, park.
• 43:37
  But if you go with a guide, you're gonna see many more beautiful things that you've never
• 43:42
  seen before.
• 43:43
  You're gonna see some of the deer you're talking about and other animals.
• 43:47
  And sometimes it's good to go with a guide because then you've gone down other paths that
• 43:54
  you wouldn't have gone down because of the experience of the other person.
• 43:59
  And at the end of the trip, you can go back to that path again and and go down it by herself.
• 44:08
  So
• 44:09
  well, I've never heard it put that way because, generally, maybe I should try that delivery
• 44:13
  when You're trying to explain it to people because most people are afraid to talk to
• 44:17
  people like you and I.
• 44:18
  And I often say it should be this is my analogy.
• 44:22
  I said, you know, So when we go to our doctor's office, we sit in the waiting room, oftentimes
• 44:28
  way too long with 30 other people, And when you see a psychotherapist, it's like, you know,
• 44:35
  high level mission where nobody's gonna run into anybody but for fear that they'd have
• 44:40
  something going on.
• 44:42
  And I said, oh, not until we get to the space where we can all sit and wait in the waiting
• 44:46
  room at the same time thinking, we all got something going on, before we go in, are we are
• 44:51
  we gonna be there?
• 44:51
  And that's where I think, mental well-being will the acceptance that our mind is equally as
• 44:57
  important as our body.
• 44:59
  And as a valuable, and it's one in the same that we we that's when we'll see potentially.
• 45:04
  I hope in my lifetime, the shift to where people would would just you know, just relish
• 45:09
  in it and and accept, that that's a that's a part of us that we need to keep, equally as
• 45:14
  healthy because it's a part of our body, you know.
• 45:18
  It's kind of so enjoyed our time.
• 45:20
  I'm sure, my listeners are gonna enjoy the space that, you brought with all your amazing
• 45:27
  writings and the perspective, which oftentimes I think we may not speak about from a, I would
• 45:33
  say a macro level all the way down to to, the micro.
• 45:37
  So for people that are wanting to get it connected with you or maybe wanting, to buy
• 45:44
  some of your books or anything else that you you offer, let people know where they can get
• 45:49
  ahold of you.
• 45:51
  Well, they can my email address is available, which is Well, the spelling is a little bit
• 46:01
  different, but Well, you
• 46:02
  know what, Karen?
• 46:02
  You could spell it, but you can send it to me as well, and I will make sure it goes in this.
• 46:06
  Okay?
• 46:06
  That would be good.
• 46:08
  I also have, a website.
• 46:11
  I have an Instagram account that I post on, every week regularly.
• 46:17
  So send you that information.
• 46:20
  Awesome.
• 46:20
  Awesome.
• 46:21
  Well, thank you so much for everybody listening.
• 46:25
  Yes, it's been a tough time on all of us, but, look around, enjoy, and think about what is it
• 46:33
  that you can let go of that you no longer need, like my clothes in my closet, and that would
• 46:37
  Karen shared to let go.
• 46:39
  Try to let go and relish the moment, we will get through this.
• 46:45
  We are resilient.
• 46:46
  And, potentially at the other end of it, there will be something a little bit more appealing
• 46:51
  for all of us, not just, countries, but hopefully globally.
• 46:56
  So again, Karen, thanks and for anybody wanting, any information on the authentic
• 47:01
  leadership, please go to roxannedurhodge.com.
• 47:04
  Derhodge for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 47:11
  healthy change.
• 47:13
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 47:19
  roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 47:23
  We'll see you next time.
• 47:25
  Unauthentic living with Roxanne.