Latest / The Backdrop Podcast / Episode 19 - Greg Sproule, CEO of Peregrine & Co.

Transcript

Episode 19 - Greg Sproule, CEO of Peregrine & Co. · The Backdrop Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to the backdrop.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm joined by Greg Sprohl, CEO of Peregrine and Company.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Greg brings more than 30 years of experience in creating and delivering world-class sporting and entertainment events alongside sport marketing across Asia in the Middle East.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Before establishing Peregrine, Greg was CEO of Falcon and Associates, overseeing some of Dubai's most prestigious events, including the Dubai Desert Classic, Dubai Moonlight Classic, and Emirates Airline Dubai Rugby Sevens, alongside major cultural and strategic initiatives for Dubai's leadership.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Prior to that, Greg spent 24 years with IMG, including 12 years as managing director in Dubai and 12 years as vice president in Singapore.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: During that time, he helped secure over$1 billion in commercial sponsorship revenue across the GCC and delivered major international events from championship golf and tennis to the historic Justin Timberlake concert in Abu Dhabi.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: His experience extends well beyond sport into fashion, tourism, culture, and entertainment.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: While his leadership helped IMG earn the title of GCC's best sports agency for five consecutive years, Greg has also negotiated major sponsorship and endorsement deals involving some of the world's greatest athletes, including Roger Federer and Tiger Woods.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Today, we'll explore his remarkable career, the evolution of the Middle East sporting and entertainment landscape, and what it takes to build events and partnerships that leave a lasting impact.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: How is everything going?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, the good weather's coming around.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm liking that.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we can get out of the summer sauna and enjoy uh tea tea time and much more.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's a great time of the year.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Things are great.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Really great.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Really great having you.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know that you have um you've had an incredible journey, and it's gonna leave us with a lot to discuss and go over.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I guess let's start uh, you know, not at the beginning, but you really in the in the in the early formative years of your, I guess, your career, and you spent 24 years at uh at IMG.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: So 12 years in Singapore uh as vice president and then managing director Middle East in the Middle East.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: What was the what was sort of that first mover advantage or early mover advantage that that you saw that others failed to see?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um it's been almost 21 years since I've been here.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been an incredible journey, and I could not have been more blessed than being able to come to the UAE and the region overall.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt quite fortunate to be here after 12 years in Singapore and Hong Kong and Korea before that.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So with that, the the Asia chapter of my life was was quite incredible.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the opportunity to come here, started doing business when I was based in Singapore from an IMG perspective, into the region, started to build some relationships and started to see that there was material opportunity.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody in the in the organization out of the UK, certainly because London was a big office, nobody had really claimed the Middle East.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't about a territory grab at all.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was just there's more opportunity out here than what I was doing, which was in the golf division and looking for golf course design, golf course management, and sports academy opportunities, David Ledbetter Golf Academy, Nick Boletari, Tennis Academy, all that ultimately got rolled up into IMG Academy, but started to see more opportunity.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So once it was agreed that that we should have an office here, and somebody said, Well, who's gonna do it?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I hadn't thought of that.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was just more, well, we need to have a uh a presence there.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody asked me if I wanted to do it.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: That made sense.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: So so coming here, I guess the the the most critical thing that we did at the time is the strategy was to focus on Abu Dhabi.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because principally the sweet spots of of the company at the time was golf, tennis, television, production, distribution, but also some some advisory work in the consulting space.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And Abu Dhabi didn't have much of any of that, certainly in golf and tennis.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So in 2006, we created the Abu Dhabi Championship, which um then became the Abu Dhabi HSBC Championship, and now is being has been rebranded the Abu Dhabi Aldar Championship.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that started in 2006, the Abu Dhabi Championship.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Again, no title partner for for five years.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then the Abu Dhabi Tourism Authority elected they wanted to have a title partner.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we brought in HSBC, which was phenomenal.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: They were the largest sponsor of golf worldwide at the time.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that was an enormous boost of credibility for Abu Dhabi and validation that the golf initiative was going to make sense.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: But we also had, you know, that gave us the opportunity to have other conversations in so many other interesting areas, whether that be establishing a tennis event, doing the Justin Timberlake Live and Abu Dhabi concert in 2007 and a bunch of other things.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, so Abu Dhabi was the strategy.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Dubai was important in many ways, as was the rest of the region.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of early opportunities, the low-hanging fruit, if you could say, it was it was Abu Dhabi.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the plan.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and um, yeah, it was it was very successful.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that move made such a massive difference to sport in in the UAE.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: It was really, I want to say the juggernaut didn't break anything, but it really created such an incredible infrastructure and uh for for sports, which then just opened the floodgates.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: So what you what you've accomplished there was just it was uh it really set the it created the the template or the blueprint for more to come.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: It what was most interesting about it for me, Michael, was to see the pride in Abu Dhabi emerge.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Abu Dhabi, you know, there was there was some sort of lower profile concerts that took place.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: There was some small things there, but it it hadn't really come into itself at all.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and the whole commercial program, sponsorships and so on, therefore didn't have really a lot to latch on to.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, so there was a there was an appetite once you know it was announced, and it was, you know, that we took a lot of effort to to really do that carefully.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um corporate Abu Dhabi really uh embraced the championship, uh, as did international companies.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we had Airbus, we had Rolls-Royce, we had uh you know, Nissan, we had a bunch of other partners that were international brands that really you know gave Abu Dhabi pride that it was a good idea and it validated what they um you know struck out to do, which was to showcase Abu Dhabi and to show it as a golf destination, as a business destination, and many other things.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So when we first made the site visit to Abu Dhabi Golf Club, I mean, it was barely open and it was, you know, it needed a lot of work.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: We, as part of what we needed to do, we need to we needed to bring in a golf course superintendent because the superintendent there didn't know how to overseed the golf course so it would look as good as and pristine as possible on television.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, you know, in January, the weather's not very good in northern Europe.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it was our responsibility to showcase Abu Dhabi as as as pristinely as possible.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we did that.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and as I say, the pride that emerged and so on, and and it really achieving that really opened a lot of doors for us.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it I I I it it remains very, very uh dear to my heart as a as a as a you know, it was a team effort by all means.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we we um uh you know built up the local office, we embraced our our our team out of London because that's where a lot of the the golf um uh event expertise was.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we brought in those people.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Great time of the year for that team, because there's not much going on in northern Europe, you know.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was everybody won.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and that that really that really makes me proud, and and I think it made Abu Dhabi proud.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it was a team, it was a team effort.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: You took the lead on that success, but making that move from Singapore to to UAE, who was it that is there anyone that you would cite as sort of you know, really pushing you and believing in you to make get this done and then see that potential?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: I had been in Singapore for 12 years and I really was enjoying what I was doing.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: I loved the golf division, I loved all the things that we were doing.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it was time to also uh you know take on a bigger challenge.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I left Canada right out of university and I went to Korea and I moved to Hong Kong and then I moved to Singapore, and so it's it's not that I was I I loved Singapore.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Our children were born in Singapore, I was married in Singapore, so I loved it, but there was the thing that really excited me about coming out here was the appetite that you could not dream too big to do some things.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so the ideas that we that we created, that we uh planted, that we harvested beyond just the Abu Dhabi HSBC Championship and beyond the tennis and other things were really unique.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and and that journey um and those opportunities, I'm incredibly, incredibly grateful for.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So was there anybody in particular?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was a it was a it was a um it was a golf division call that we were on, and I had said a week or so before, I'm gonna present a two-pager on why I think that we should have an office in Dubai to cover the region.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Submitted that, everybody agreed, makes all the sense in the world.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody said, Well, who's gonna run it?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I I I don't know.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't I've got to that.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted you guys to be comfortable that that that the opportunity is there.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And as I said before, one of the guys in the call said, Why don't you do it?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Yeah, that that's a that's a logical next step for me.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and that opened it, you know, it wasn't just a golf responsibility, it was all the things in the company that that that you know, some of which I didn't know and had to lean on a lot of people to get up a learning curve really quickly.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: But um, it's a team effort, you know, and and and when you're generating business and you're generating business for other divisions, everybody wants to jump on board and help.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: So fast forwarding, you know, to to uh throughout your IMG time and and I guess just in in all the time that you've been, you know, uh creating these sponsorship opportunities for brands, like you said, you rightly said that that needed to have that sort of to have that sort of landscape to to invest in and that platform to invest in.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Over one billion in sponsorship uh over the years.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to find out, I just want to ask you, do you feel like sometimes the the partnerships become, and I use the term transactional, meaning that that you know, the value of what the what the brand is getting, does it become um do they sort of lose sight of what's valuable in that partnership sometimes, or do they get it?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like do they understand that it's really just sort of uh it's it's it's the it's the sort of being tethered to to to a competition or or you know, a tournament or something like that?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, these are relationships, right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's in everybody's best interest to have balance for people to understand, for our partners to understand that there are benefits that we need to deliver to them, and then go beyond that.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's the servicing part.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Selling the deal is one thing, but servicing it and creating a real meaningful bilateral relationship, again, you know, if if it's not an event that we own, then we're representing somebody else.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a big responsibility to make sure that you have to do the deal, and there are metrics that go against that from an ROI perspective.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And every company has their own, you know, there's there's a whole spectrum of why or how that ROI calculation really makes sense.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's important and it's good that that happens.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: So then you get buy-in and there is a process, a diligence that goes through that evaluation of a property.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: To be fair, there are there are times where the chairman or chairwoman loves a sport and they want to be involved.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's their own company, maybe it's not.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the easiest ones to do initially, because it they're they're they're passionate about it for whatever reason they have.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: But beyond that, you know, the the the ROI analysis, if it is securing more business, gaining new customers, acquiring new customers, if it's if it's looking after existing customers, if it's internal objectives with staff, um, you know, those kinds of things, those are metrics that are really, really important.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've had the pleasure in this journey, just a you know, a couple of examples.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, companies like HSBC and Mubadla are unbelievably professional in how they evaluate, assign responsibility within companies, and then you know, monitor that throughout the year to make sure that they're getting enough benefits to make that relationship or that partnership, that sponsorship valuable.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really interesting to see.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I'm from the largely from the sell side.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So to see that from the buy side, because again, you're our responsibility is to get close to them.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: We we don't, it's not about being inside the organization, but it's about asking the right questions, it's about delivering what we have agreed on and then going beyond.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the commitment that I think makes you know, one plus one equals three in those kinds of relationships.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because if it's one-sided, it it's it's not going to be a long-term relationship, and that's not good for anybody.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the long-term relationships are meaningful relationships.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: It means that there's something that is that goes beyond uh sort of the intangible, you know, uh value that that supersedes the financial return.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is there any example that you that you have that you can think of that where that where that happened, where where something where that partnership meant more to the client than just the financial returney?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's bottom line.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's all I mean, there's a number of examples.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I it it it's probably not not right for me to to get overly specific about who it was and what it was, but that's all part of a of a relationship where you care and you get to know your you know partner, your sponsor in particular, um, as an organization, as individuals, as decision makers, and then do things that are beyond that.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: If that is, you know, uh inviting them to Wimbledon because, you know, they're also a tennis fan, or inviting them to the Masters because they like golf, or taking them to uh an IPL uh game in in India, if if you know, if if that is something that's passionate for them, if that is getting them to meet Roger Federer, um, you know, above and beyond, being very respectful of Roger and so on, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: But at an event that we're involved with doing those kinds of things, yeah, that adds extra value.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they bring their business partners with them in those opportunities.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that goes way beyond what is in an agreement.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: But that's part of the importance of the relationship and driving that, understanding them, giving them unique opportunities and also unique opportunities that they can share either internally or with their customers.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not part of an agreement at all.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's just extra things that you should do in terms of building a uh a strong relationship that that goes beyond what's in in black and white.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's the spirit of the relationship that really shows.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now now I want to move away a little bit from IMG and I want to talk about the uh your affiliation with Dubai Metro, Dubai Metro naming rights.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: And you you brought you brought on board something that was fairly uh something that was really not very conventional, which was inviting clients or inviting, you know, commercial organizations to come in or private sector organizations to come in, yeah, to be able to have sort of, you know, to to own a metro station, which was, you know, like I said, very unconventional.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: How did you get that across to the stakeholders?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: And what was the sales pitch to say, you know, we're gonna we're gonna name these uh different uh metro stops after this group or that group, and and they're gonna they're gonna pay for it.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: That all started in 2007 over a cup of coffee with myself and two other people, not too far from here in Emirates Towers, Jumara Emirates Towers.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the gentlemen at the table was uh involved in building of the Dubai Metro.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the other gentleman, a dear friend of mine, Blair Hagel, um, good Canadian, um is in the was in the the real estate advisory space.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: His company eventually sold it, became JL in the region.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And to Blair, I was explaining our stadium and arena naming rights business and how that works and what the how you evaluate how you value that, how you sell it, blah, blah, blah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: When's the best time to do that?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And all of the things around that.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: The other gentleman who's building the Dubai Metro, um, you know, I I turned to him and said, wouldn't it be crazy if we took this stadium naming rights business and applied it to the Dubai Metro?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we all laughed.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, ha ha.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm driving home and I'm like, actually, that's that's not a crazy idea.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a crazy idea.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: What it is about at its core is about a sleeping asset.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So and it would have been no different, you know, going back several decades when stadiums had naming rights deals and arenas had naming rights deals, naming rights deals.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly, and that's been involved in hospitals and library wings and so on for a long period of time.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is just this is sport specific.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And like stadiums, the metros change names every every once in a while.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: They do, they do, and I mean that it's a factor.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these were 10-year deals that we originally did, started in 2009, went to 2019.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: But um fundamentally, it is about aside from the sleeping asset matter, it's about traffic.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time when we were putting it all together, um, you know, the estimations that the RTA had, I mean, nobody knew.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: They had certainly done their homework, but but this it was a guess because no other city in the region had had a metro system like that at all.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it was very novel.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: The time was really good because the construction boom back then was enormous.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this was His Highness's, one of his most important um uh uh infrastructure projects is very rightly very proud of it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the the idea itself we took to the RTA, but the beauty of it was that it cost them hardly anything, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're building the stations, it's a matter of branding them.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that you have to brand them anyways.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it was essentially like it was all profits, sleep fast flee.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it, I mean, our tagline when we did the project was called when we went to the market, was turn your brand into a destination.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what it became.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about it's about it's about um traffic, it's about being in an iconic location where people say, Oh, yeah, you're right near um, you know, equity metro station, or you're right near, you know, Mall of the Emirates Station.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what that becomes part of people's lexicon.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the the RTA recognized that that it was the first time in the world it had ever been done.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there had been some stations, you know, Disneyland in Hong Kong is called Disneyland Station because it's a terminus for that metro network, but not a whole, you know, it and we we commercialized 10 stations.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's what that's what they set aside.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: These 10 you can go you can go commercialize.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the process that we went through was was really quite interesting.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe one of the most unique things that we found is that yes, there were some established brands that were interested in that, but where the action really was was in aspirational brands.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Brands that were, you know, sort of second or third tier that wanted to make a statement and be associated, whether it be on Sheikh Syed Road and all of the all of the profile of those stations, um, or you know, making a statement that we are, we believe in the in the metro itself.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a statement that they wanted to send to the leadership of Dubai.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it was it was very, very successful.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And clear.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the leadership saw that because they saw what our plan was and they saw the projections that we that we had.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we tried to be as as as realistic as we could.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was an open bid.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a tender process.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: So is it this station?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: You tell us which, you know, which one you're interested in.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sealed bids, all of that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I'll never forget opening all of those envelopes and and seeing what the bids were.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: We had minimums that you know they had to, yeah, that we we made quite clear.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it was uh it was very rewarding.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it goes to my point that I said before about no idea is too big to be considered.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: If it's a good one, it's well thought out.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody can win.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: No better place in the world than than Dubai and the UAE to come with those kinds of ideas.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: But you you made a good point because you're not building something for them.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's not uh you're just rebranding, you're just rebranding something, but also because it's not uh they're not paying for billboard space.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is part of the infrastructure of the city.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, correct.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: You're branded within the infrastructure of the city.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: You're now on the mind of someone when they're talking about, like you said, a a journey or destination.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's so what what other maybe you you can't uh you don't want to divulge, but are there any other unconventional ideas that that you think could happen in in Dubai?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe street names or like or we've had some discussions uh for some other things and and and have tried a couple of things.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the Metro was uh was was the Dubai Metro was probably and it continues today, right?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, with the expansion and so on.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: I the one thing that I've thought about for a while that I think is is is at some stage worth exploring is public art and companies getting behind public art, as in public art displays at in graffiti?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, okay.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: It could be it could be um uh you know uh statue, it could be you know something like that public art along a road or in an in a roundabout or something like that where companies can get involved and contribute to making that art happen.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do they do that anywhere else?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I'm aware.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, not that I'm aware.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, companies buy art to be sure, but this is this is more and and I I get the delicacy of this, right?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: You don't uh there is an inherent conflict in a beautiful piece of art, if it's a sculpture by way of example, uh sculpture in particular, I think sculptures make a lot of sense.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then branding it.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have to be really careful about that.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, there's some hurdles to it, but but but I think in cities, I think public art and sculptures and those kinds of things add to the texture um uh of a of a city.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I think that that, yeah, I'm curious about that.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think we probably scratch the surface.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: I have a feeling you're gonna be involved in all of it.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's uh I think it'd be really, really interesting to see what's gonna happen.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I I do see that there are there's these installations, art installations in other cities, but they're not corporate owned.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're not uh there's no affiliation with uh that balance sponsor.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: That balance is really it has to be really, really carefully thought through.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you can't you can't brand it out at that point.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, but then you lose, it gets a the a little bit gauche.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a little bit.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's there's a there's there's more subtle ways to do it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think exactly.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we we we talked before uh before filming, we we mentioned that uh, you know, at your time with with Falcon and Associates, and I I spent uh a great deal of time visiting the offices there and working with them.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And um there was that always that hunger for bringing in international events, and and uh they've been very, very good at that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and so with you developing the Moonlight Classic, the Dubai Desert Classic, and everybody knows these, these are you know iconic and emblematic events in Dubai, I mean, what I want to talk about really is is nation branding exercises and the strategic initiatives for the leadership of Dubai and and how they tie together into something that becomes more than just what it is, more than that that it becomes that emblematic event for Dubai and and and and sort of the the development of that, the mindset of how it gets started.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to walk us through some of that?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I wasn't here when the when the Dubai Desert Classic started in 1989, right?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: That was his highness's um idea and and you know has been demonstrated to be replicated in Doha, in Abu Dhabi, in Saudi and elsewhere.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, that was was was absolutely not my idea.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: I had the pleasure of coming in and and and making some changes um that I that I felt was quite necessary.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: When in in Abu Dhabi, every year we would audit the Desert Classic and every other event.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Just go visit it, evaluate it, what do they do great?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what could be improved?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: What can we learn, etc.?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I I had a pretty good idea in mind when when the opportunity came.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the idea of nation branding and sport goes back a long time.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and you look at the Olympics, right?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'll we'll come back to a Dubai example here in a second.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, the Olympics, you know, when Tokyo hosted the Olympics in 1964, that was their coming out party to the world, right?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Seems crazy now to think you know, Tokyo needed to do that or wanted to do it.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: But '64, that was their coming out party.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: It happened in Seoul in 1988.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: It happened in Beijing in 2008.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these are grand sort of entry statements of sport at the highest level that governments uh across a whole spectrum of reasons, but that's what that's what it represents.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: And in in in in time, you know, that'll happen in many other countries because it it does.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: One could argue it's the same thing with uh Qatar hosting the World Cup in 2022.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Saudi Arabia is going to do that um in 2034, which also comes to the point about non-sports things, which is Expo, right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: The Saudi's doing that in 2030, Dubai did it in 2020.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that legacy, that statement that Dubai made, and Falcon was very involved.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: My predecessor, Giselle Pettifer and and others, they deserve all the credit for that.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And his highness, you know, making that decision to go ahead and and and bid for Expo, uh, those were massive decisions that were made, and a lot committed to do it and do it in a Dubai manner, which means better, which means bigger, which means, you know, doing it, doing it like nobody else has ever done.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I would argue that Expo 2020 accomplished that.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: We had the pleasure of being involved in the commercial program there, and that was a we can talk about that in a second, but um, you know, from a Dubai Expo perspective, part of of our mandate from a from a commercial partnership perspective was identify brands and companies that wanted to to to be a part of the logistics corridor that was going to be created in legacy phase of expo, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Jabal Ali port, the new airport, that logistics corridor there.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: They wanted to, you know, that's what the legacy phase of that area is, many other things as well, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Residential and recreation and so on.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but one of the things that we did is when Siemens came on board as a partner of Expo 2020, they committed to in legacy phase of of Expo City being their global logistics hub.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and that gets into, you know, we talked about about you know ROI and so on, is you know, Expo was a tremendous celebration of Dubai, of the UAE, and and and about tomorrow and all of the themes, the important themes that were being celebrated.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it was also about what does that area of Dubai mean for future development?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, that logistics corridor and being near the airport and Jebal Ali port and so much more.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and that is part of the that's part of the brand building of of Dubai.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sport has played an important role in that, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Desert Classic and the tennis and rugby sevens and so on.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that's that's it, it happens all around the world.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Dubai's done a particularly good job of that.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, certainly in this part of the world, the Desert Classic became iconic.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, I was not involved, but bringing Tiger here uh in the early days and him, you know, hitting golf balls off the Burjal Arab um helicopter pad and Roger Federer and Andrew Agassiz playing tennis, you know, off the same helicopter pad.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, those are iconic moments that are brilliant, yeah, that that use sport as a way to to identify in brand.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: So Tiger coming here and not just once, but many times, um became synonymous um of you know Dubai's profile, sporting prowess, tourism destination, real estate destination, insurance, you know, financial services, et cetera, et cetera.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's it's quite an impressive story, and and Dubai is the leader.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: And Abu Dhabi's done a great job in their own way, right?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: With course, you know, golf and tennis and formula one and um many other things.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a feeling Russell Kim is going to be picking up uh you know, picking up pace as well with uh with a lot of their developments and the partnerships that they're gonna be uh taking in.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I I think it's really commendable that that Dubai had that foresight to to create Expo City as, like you said, as that sort of legacy space before Expo even came.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: And there are a lot of usable spaces that don't get used after a large-scale event like Athens after the Olympics, it everything just gets decayed and goes, but it was repurposed uh and repurposed very, very, very well.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Dubai will not let that fail.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, and now it really is its own city.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and that's so much of Dubai's growth is going out that way, right?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when the new airport opens and you know a few years down the road, then that that becomes such a hub.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, built the mobility corridors all the way out there, like you said, with the with the metro into the airport.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, um so but when you're working with the when you're working with a client, um, whether it's the government, whether it's private sector, public sector, to do you ever find yourself sort of challenging the expectations that they have sometimes, or just maybe stopping and saying, you know what, I don't think this is gonna work because of this.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Something like maybe some evidence-led uh sort of opposition.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the the base of that is honesty, yeah, right, and being very candid.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um governments, companies, whatever will have objectives doesn't mean that all sports events have to make money if there's bigger objectives.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you talk about, you know, brand, you know, nation branding or emirate branding or whatever, whatever.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't have to make money.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: The issue is that you have to be clear of what's that delta from the beginning.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, agreeing to to to to to uh budget you know for something of$10 million is one thing.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Having to go back and ask for another 10, you know, when it's when you're about to reach the finish line is another matter altogether.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what's what's critical is just having that open discussion, knowing what you're doing, not you know, finessing things, but showing what the numbers are, but also being very realistic in terms of what you know the benefits are and how to maximize and make the most of it, right?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: If if it if it's something that's around um, you know, tourism, how can how can a city, an emirate, a country, whatever, how can they really leverage that from a tourism and all the travel trade partners, airlines, inbound tourists, whatever, golf tour operators, you know, use a golf example there, but um, how can that be harnessed?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Dubai's exceptionally savvy from uh from uh you know Department of Uh of Economy and Tourism.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: They know, they know their stuff.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're very, they're very cut and dried about it, right?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Events in events in Dubai are very different from ones in Abu Dhabi and Doha and Saudi in terms of underwrite.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Dubai, generally speaking, there are exceptions to be sure, but generally, generally Dubai's attitude is go ahead and do it, but it's it's gotta it's gotta be commercially sustainable on its own.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, other places there is more um um um appetite to to fully underwrite at a government level.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's gotta be the right event, it's gotta fit within the strategy.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Dubai will do that at times, but generally speaking, it's like we've got to make it commercially sustainable.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and so those are those are very honest discussions.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I completely respect that.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, government here and and and uh you know in the UA in general, and just in large organizations that are based here typically they do a lot of serious anal analysis.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they do a lot of benchmarking, and I think they know what they're doing before they even come to agencies.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so they know what they want, but sometimes the appetite is just gets so big that they really want something because they want that end result and whatever it takes to get there, they just want to get there.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes it's pretty hard to override.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, uh, but I think you like you said, just cultivate to sort of get get get them in the right way to get where they need to be.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to be honest.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course you have to be honest.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, present the numbers and it's there at the end of the day, it's their decision, but the numbers will the numbers will speak for themselves.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: The strategy that underpins all of that is important.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, how you maximize those benefits.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Keep in mind that that this is not a uh uh UAE or GCC specific things.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: This happens all around the world, right?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Happens in Singapore, it happens in Thailand, it happens in Europe, it happens in North America.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is you know, governments get involved in these initiatives, right?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: If they make sense.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's not it's not unique to uh to to the region here at all.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: So we we mentioned obviously Tiger Woods, a pretty uh incredible part of your of your journey uh working with Tiger Woods and Roger Federer.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to ask you when you are working with legends like this, I mean icons of sport like this, how do you how do you how do you balance um personal grand equity and sort of that commercial return?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how do you find that sort of balance so you can, you know, uh, you know, ensure that you still retain, I guess, sort of the negotiating power with with massive you know icons like this and all the other ones you've worked with.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, I you know, to be clear, I I've had the pleasure of of of doing some things with Roger and with Tiger.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they are surrounded by not not vast numbers of people, but really impressive people.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're very smart on their own.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, America Roger's wife is incredibly uh smart, sophisticated, savvy.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Roger's manager, Tony Godsick, uh, Tiger's manager, Mark Steinberg.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're they're I played a role in that, right?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not uh I don't I never represented them, but I did I did get involved in some things.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I have tremendous respect for for for them and their teams.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: They are unique individuals, right?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Roger Tiger is in the same, in my mind, in the same, you know, space as the Michael Jordans and you know people like uh of that ilk.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really refer to it so much as power, you know, but be between them as in between an athlete and a and a brand.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly they're at a those those kinds of athletes are at a completely different level.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody else kind of falls in behind.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, it the deal has to make sense for both sides, and it needs to be properly negotiated because otherwise it's not gonna last, right?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of diligence that goes in from the athlete side, let alone on the brand side, right?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, Roger and Tiger had a couple things when they were in their prime that were really quite um many people may know, they may not, but you know, they're they're head-to-toe Nike athletes.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: So they can't have another brand on them.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that made it challenging.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: But Nike bought out all that inventory, right?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And they do that with their, you know, prime athletes.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing with with you know, Rafa and uh, you know, LeBron in many ways, although that's different because he's you know NBA, but um, and and Michael Jordan.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, it's not so much of a power thing, it has to make sense.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's interesting about the athletes' point of view that that that I learned is how precious their time is.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: So they have to be really careful when they enter into these discussions with potential partners, is what's the time commitment that's being asked of them.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because on one hand, you can say, oh, this company ABC wants two days a year, and that shouldn't be too hard.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it isn't if you only have one.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have 10 of them and they're all asking for two or three days, you start stacking that up, looking at their competition schedule, their training schedule, their rest schedule, you know, and so on.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Those days stack up.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: So respecting their time is really important, right?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then the clarity that goes into that with brands that are that want to be associated, you know, they've got their own assessment going on.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and sometimes they look at it and go, two days, like, come on.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the reality is, is, you know, that's the intelligence of activating that relationship that they can do on their own.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they need photo sessions where they can, you know, create content and you have their proper images and so on.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be very smart about how you use that time.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, that's the that's the art of maximizing and leveraging from a brand point of view an association with an athlete like that.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: The athlete, obviously, it had there has to be a match, yeah.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And all athletes have different standards, what's important to them, what they don't want to be associated with, and so on.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's really important.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the people around them, like some of those that I mentioned, are very, very good at that.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the the the appetite that they have on the commercial side is one matter.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, um, but the time that that that that it requires of the athlete, when you start looking at multiple um um brand partnerships, it adds up.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and most of of of the true professionals give more than they're not contracted to, but they they they they often give more than what's in black and white, right?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: In order to build that partnership, in order to extend it, in order to, you know, and it goes both ways, right?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: It goes both ways.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, those they're they're they're fascinating discussions.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and it was a real it's been a real thrill to be a a part of them, um, and and with others, you know.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: But but you know, to your question, I don't view it as power.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I you know, because because any any sponsor, look what happened to Roger and Tiger, you know, they have both moved on from Nike.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, so you know, Roger didn't want to leave Nike, but Nike made that decision, right?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, who had the power?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you know, if you want to say, I mean, so yeah, who that was a decision that they made.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: If I take that a step further, I think what's more interesting from that, you know, the the athlete and a brand perspective is the movement these days into athletes taking equity into some of their uh into their partners.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, Roger and Awn is an example of that, right?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Equity stake, and then and that is, you know, that suggests a long-term commitment in many ways and involvement in product development and so on.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Athletes at that level, there are others, right?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Awn is, you know, and now it's the Mbappe relationship and talking about getting into golf and some other things.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it happens with Whoop and Rory McElroy and others, where the athletes take an equity stake in the brands, and that that that changes the landscape entirely.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're only we're talking about the ones at the you know, the real peak performers who have a bit of leverage to have those kinds of discussions, but it also goes to a real you know truth of it being a true partnership, right?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Vote with your feet or your wallet.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and that that's a whole new era that I think is um is really exciting for the right athletes in the right categories.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, and there's enormous potential, not guaranteed, but potential upside.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: You so are are there any other, are there any sort of athletes that you've worked with or any that you've that kind of has surprised you?
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to you don't have to name names, but you can just explain sort of a the situation or the scenario.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: Is there are there any that that really kind of surprise you?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or are there agents that uh that surprise you in a in a good or bad way?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: I can maybe look at it this way.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: In in in in in running of a golf tournament or a tennis tournament, having the discussion, and so this is from now I'm on the buy side.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm organizing a tennis tournament or a golf tournament, and we want star players to participate.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're out talking to the The best golfers or tennis players in the world.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Having those discussions are very professional.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, everybody plays a role in those discussions.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: The the agent or the manager plays a tougher role, understandably.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's they're the gatekeeper than the athlete themselves.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Athlete, oftentimes, you know, that the job, and the reason why IMG was formed in the first place was because Mark McCormick said to Arnold Palmer, he said, you focus like a laser beam on being the best golfer you can in the world.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna take care of all those other things.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna make the decision, and I'll bring those decisions to you, but I'm gonna do all that negotiating for you, bring it to you, you make the decision, yes or no.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: That was 1974, I think you said that was 1962.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think 1960.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, goes back a long ways.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mark Mark McCormick was the is the grandfather of the sports marketing business.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he started with Arnold Palmer and then Gary Player and Jack Nicholas.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: And until I was actually doing my research on your background and I came IMG and I came across Mark McCormick, I I actually had never been in doing research been so interested in learning more about someone post-interview because I think it it really, really seems he was an incredible man.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: He had um uh a vision like, you know, as as his track record showed.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he had a vision like like, you know, when he first started the company back in 1960, I think it was, um, he saw, and there were so many things that were in his favor at the time.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was representing the best talent, it was creating events around those athletes, and then it was televising them.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Color television was coming into reality, the jet airplane was coming into reality reality, so athletes could travel and Palmer and player and these guys would start to go to Japan in the 1960s, and like, I mean, he was so far ahead of everyone.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: I remember being in a meeting in Hong Kong um uh before he passed away, obviously.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, and he all he wanted to talk about was was ballroom dancing.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and he was like, This was this was this was we have to be a part of this incredible um um initiative, this this this groundswell of that I can see coming.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody like thought he was like, What really?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's he talking about?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what he saw was dancing with the stars right as an entertainment property that went crazy, right?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Years down the road.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't see that.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: He did.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we thought he's like ballroom dancing, like what?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it just goes to show that even in his later years, he had a vision that was incredible and had an incredible work ethic and some of his you know habits and so on.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was a real pleasure to to to spend a little bit of time with him.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you get someone that uh that that that is at that sort of genius level, if they say gerbil racing, you're like, write that down, you know.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: He's the guy that started it all.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so sports, then we talked about uh you know Dubai Metro.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: Now I want to talk about another uh another part of the uh of of your of the platforms that you've uh been part of, which is live entertainment and and justin Timberlake, justin Timberlake Live Abu Dhabi.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things we started about was talking about the Abu Dhabi Championship, right?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: The Gulf of In.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: When we delivered that successfully, I also talked about the pride that Abu Dhabi started to have and and the fact that we delivered it so successfully that first year and the second year and beyond, um, it opened doors to have other conversations.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh one particular gentleman who uh is still in the region, he's an incredible guy.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: I went in to see him.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: I won't name the organization, um, but I went in to see him and and we we caught up about some of the great things that we were doing and what I was thinking.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a lot of things on the table.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, before I leave, just give me one thing that we can work on.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: I it doesn't need I don't five, no, one thing that you think really makes sense.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, music.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, okay, why?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why is that?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's oh, we went to this event and it was it was a disaster.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was, you know, you it was the lineups to get in and the and it wasn't in Abu W, it was somewhere else.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: The lineups to get in and the traffic and the experience, and the concert was great, but they're trying to leave and the traffic was terrible.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we can't, that's not what, that's not what Abu W is, not what we stand for.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, all right.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that you know, bad experience somewhere else, you know, that you went to, you went to uh a concert.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I said, and and you want to, you know, music's of interest, use it.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, musics of interest to me.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: I said, how about I create a list of 20 artists that we think would be iconic and would make sense?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you pick five or three, and then we'll go out and see if they're available and if the timing works.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll come back to you.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, great.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we went up, created the list.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I worked with a colleague in London who ran our arts and entertainment division, came up with the list.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sat we sat down with them.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what's the order?
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: One, two, three.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Timberlake was at the top of the list.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just because of all the things that, you know, he's such an incredible performer.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's such a his his his history, it was so clean and so interesting.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: And he's just he's a right guy, low risk.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: All of it.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, all of it.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: He was the package.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we went and um we ended up, you know, doing a deal for for him to come.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and the what year was that?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: 2007.
• 49:51
  unknown: Oh wow.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: Future Sex Love Show.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was almost 20 years ago.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and we did and we did it Emirates Palace and we designed the venue so that everybody could arrive and leave within 45 minutes.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's easy on the front end because you create a lot of activities for people to come early.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: So the you kind of stagger that.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: At the end is usually where the challenge is.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we create a lot of things that people could do, you know, afterwards to stay.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, um, but we also manage the parking and the, you know, all of that as we capped as like the number is 11,000.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's what this site and the roads, etc., can handle.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: Forgive me for not knowing this, but was that the first Emirates Palace concert?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: It was a magical night in December.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: The weather was, you know, perfect for that time of the year, and this, the, the views across uh the city.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was, it was, he was phenomenal.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it and again, it was it comes back to that to that pride that it that a city has.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we can do this.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: And which and that then was the beginning of Flash Entertainment, which now leads into Ithara.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: But that was the beginning of the of the our the our production guy uh was higher number two with uh with Flash.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and at you know, because it was just a one project initiative for us.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh it was another example of of of in that instance of Abu Dhabi coming together.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: But the basis of it was that we delivered a great golf tournament and created good relationships and built trust and and that and you know that just that expanded.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a it was a it was a it was a very interesting um um experience.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Music is much different from sport.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: And sport has its own ranking even within it.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: To have a a gentleman and an artist like him was was uh spectacular.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that started something at I mean, I think the risk-reward calculus just evaporated after that.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: Just sort of it was so worth it.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: Not because of maybe just the commercial result, but because it just set off uh it something incredible.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it also sent about outdoor live entertainment in Abu Dhabi.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's just and and it sent a message to the music industry, yeah.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: So Timberlake and his management, uh, all the old guy, all the guys at CAA, men and women at CAA were like, wow, they did a great job.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: And the way we structured it and the to give them a vote of cut, because it never happened before in Abu Dhabi.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: So they're like, what?
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Abu Dhabi?
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: Dubai, yes.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Abu Dhabi.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we structured it mindful of of what was important to them.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and it was uh it's just, you know, you see that, you see that in in uh certainly in Dubai, you see it in Abu Dhabi, you see it elsewhere.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: But the pride that people have.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just and so it's so rewarding to to to be a part of that and to do it for you know the people that gave us the vote of confidence uh to try it in the first place.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it's incredible that Abu Dhabi's now become known for live entertainment.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, since then it's just snowballed from there.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like Elton John, Beyonce, Rihanna, Coldplay, regularly Justin Timberlake again, probably a few times, Guns N' Roses, yeah, and it just goes on and on.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: All credit to the leadership of Abu Dhabi and and and the Flash, yeah, Slat and Now Ithara people.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, they they were they were um instrumental in in in all of that.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there was broad support.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, Dubai does great things as well, right?
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, of course for it's you know, Abu Dhabi's just taking a bigger bite at you know Formula One and those kinds of things which are which are um you know iconic.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, those are the that's the it's the it's the it's the landmark of the schedule, it's the dilemma.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: So are there any sort of live artists, anyone you work with that you were that you feel were I I mean, I guess it was just sort of a a misconception that you might have had about uh booking these talents from that that people might think that they're the divas or or really maybe difficult, or or is what's is there a misconception that people have about there's some personality as you mentioned before about working with with with Tiger Woods and Chuck Roger Federer, they're very professional, they know what they want when they before they come in, yeah, and everything is aligned.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm assuming that's gotta be the same with live performers.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, although from a music perspective, from a music perspective, yeah, coming in.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: To be fair, Timberlake was the only one that I was involved with.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: And he could not have been, you know, less Diva-ish.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he was such an easy guy to to to and and you know, part of that, part of that is the team that we assembled um that anticipate.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's so much a part of dealing with any of these um, you know, personalities, whether they be music, and again, I I have I have relatively limited experience with that, but but on the sports side and dealing with those athletes, it's anticipating.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it and if uh and and no surprises, right?
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes stuff goes a little bit sideways, but you can anticipate a lot of stuff.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do that, and if you look after them in ways that are important to them and give them trust and keep it easy and respect their time.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about that before.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, respect their time, look out for them, um, be professional.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you're proactive in how you manage that, the chances are that it will go well.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there's you know, it it's hard with a golfer or a tennis player, after they've played, if they need to do corporate hospitality visits and they've played badly or lost, lost in the case of tennis or at a bad round in golf, it's it's not easy, you know, to go immediately into hospitality and them to be, you know, smiley and happy.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so there the the art of that, of letting them settle, not rushing them, telling them what's gonna happen, how long you're gonna be there for, and look after their interests, right?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: Got to balance the interests of the sponsors and so on, and stakeholders that they're going to be meeting, but that's just being a proactive, respectful manager of a situation.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you do that, um, and they've had a bad round or they've had or they've lost a match or whatever, you have to respect and manage that.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and maybe be a little creative along the way.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: So there this you know, sport, music, fashion, um, you know, the culinary landscape.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there a lot of them are competing for the same sort of audiences.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of experiential convergence that takes place.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um where does it become commercially irrelevant?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh where where are the lines sort of where do they blur?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: Where where things become a little bit like irrelevant, where they become sort of um those traditional boundaries are are are evaporated.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: The the the the key with all of this is just harmony and honesty.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it in in all of these, in all kinds of relationships.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you're honest and upfront and proactive, then um you know problems can be managed proactively.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: And otherwise you you're you're asking for trouble.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: The the unorthodox opportunities like you we we talked about with Dubai Metro, I think there's probably a lot to come with merging a lot of these uh together.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they we do it a lot in Dubai and Abu Dhabi anyway, with you know, the the a food festival that has a concert that has or Formula One that has a concert.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: We've merged that really, really well because now if there's yeah, where people are coming to the concert, yeah, they're coming to Formula One or they're coming to both, but it becomes sort of landmark events within itself and where it's together, you know.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and and maybe I didn't I didn't answer your question quite quite um carefully enough, but but the convergence I think is a really is is is an interesting one, and it's necessary in many respects, and it's particularly necessary, in my view, in this part of the world, in other countries, in Canada with hockey, in Japan with baseball, in the US with basketball and NFL, not everybody, but most people, these are the most popular sports in those countries.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: We know football is popular here, but but in the UAE, it's a very heterogeneous society here, right?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's circa 10 million people here, and but they're from all over the world.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, there's a lot of our friends from India and a lot of our friends from the Philippines, but given the size and scale of the events here, right?
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: Golf is popular, but it's not like everybody's playing golf, let's be honest.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, in order for a golf event to be successful, you have to appeal to the non-golfer.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: When I when I first um um was was putting together the plans to revitalize the desert classic, I know that we want to have the best players in the world there, for sure.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, you to attract them is is an investment.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I know if we get a great field, golf golfers, golf fans, they'll come.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: They'll come.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: I said to to my team, I actually, in terms of building the popularity of the event, I actually don't care about the golfer.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: I want and and and we were out on the golf course, and I I pointed to you know, JBR and the Marina and JLT.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, those are the people that I want to see come to the Desert Classic.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: The people with young families that that want to go for a uh an enjoyable afternoon walk and have an ice cream that maybe want to get their 10,000 steps.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: I want to, I wanna, I want the people that want just a great afternoon out with their friends.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they want a hamburger or they want some sashimi or they want a you know cold beverage of some sort.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: I want them to come here and this to be their great day out.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we will create activities around the golf course, not just in hospitality around 9 and 18, in the village, out on the golf course.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: We'll create platforms, viewing spectator hubs where people can gather at their leisure with their kids and otherwise.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: We'll market it accordingly, we'll price it accordingly, and we will bring in partners who share that vision, who want to tell a story to more and more people.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: We actually cut the entry fee.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: There was not no entry fee.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: And over time, and Simon Corkill and the others that are running the tournament now are doing a phenomenal job.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the the the launch pad was we want more than just golfers to come.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: The golfers will come, but create a good give a good reason for other segments of the demographics of Dubai to come.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: We did the same thing in Abu Dhabi at the event there.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and and that was very specifically planned.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's how they become more popular.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's what sponsors want, it's what the media wants, it's what the players want.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: Other people, you just spectators want to be where other people are having fun and having a you know something great to eat, something nice to drink in unique places with fun people.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they want some music.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we deliver that.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: That so that convergence is really important.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not as much like that in the music space.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you go to a concert, and yeah, you may have some interactive things to be sure, but you're going to watch, you're going to watch Justin Timberlake or Coldplay or whatever, and you might get something to eat before or after, et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's much more that's much more task specific.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: At a golf event or a tennis event, you're there for a number of hours, right?
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're there for a day.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and we wanted to attract, and the only way to attract more people was to, and I say this carefully, not worry about the golf fan.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're gonna come.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they'll and they'll want that, they'll want that, you know, that great chicken burger, or they'll want that, you know, excellent swarma, or a lovely, you know, glass of champagne like anybody else.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, but we're gonna we're gonna create those other activities.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and and we're we'll take some risks along the way.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: But you make it you, it's something for everyone.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's just uh it's the experience, and I think that like you said, here it's at a different level because you you'd need if it's just one sort of siloed experience, it's just not enough anymore.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's in a with a concert, obviously it it is it completely immersive.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need anything else because sound, life, everything is there for you, and and audio, all that.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just sort of um the same the same thing.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: I would say has also been done here with um with the uh Emirates Airline Dubai Rugby Sevens, right?
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's been expensive.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not just a rugby tournament anymore.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when I was involved in the pitch for that, which is the an irony of a Canadian who doesn't play rugby, but telling the story of what what happened with the Desert Classic and how terrible in the sentence ended the what's that?
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: We don't do terrible in the subs.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: We don't do terrible, but I don't know, I don't know a lot about rugby.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: So here I am talking to Kiwis and and and and South Africans and Brits.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: But what I'm gonna do at a rugby, I yeah, the basics of of of the roadmap of what needed to be done, not at what happens on the pitch.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's happened by yeah, by world rugby, but how to create a robust, attractive event when you know you're there for a day.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: How do you attract the non-rugby fan?
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing with Formula One and Abu W.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: They've done a great job there.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for these events that are over the course of a weekend or a few days, yeah, how do you attract the non-fan?
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's the magic, generally speaking, because you know, like I say, we're we're not in Japan or other countries where a sport is so unbelievably popular.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you have to attract from a lot of different um demographics.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so to do that, you got to introduce more elements.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I would argue that those um those elements here in this part of the world are done at a level unlike anywhere else in the world.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: Take away the Super Bowl in in the US or you know, that kind of stuff.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's just that's just that's at a totally next level.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we can all learn from it as well right away.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think event delivery here and how to build it out in terms of not just appeal to that golf fan or that tennis fan or that rugby fan or that Formula One fan, I think the UAE's done an amazing job of that.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_02: But the leaders here that are creating these events or or are developing these events have to be can sort of conceptually agile.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: They have to they have to think of what'll work together and what doesn't work together.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: So these leaders, and this is where I want to get into leadership, is is a leader somebody that can think, I don't like saying outside the box again, but someone that can think sort of in a full spectrum mode, or someone that's just really good at managing people and and just getting it done and managing clients and keeping happy.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or would you consider sort of the big check mark is someone that can a leader that can really work with the team to think of something strategically unique?
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: So my view is that a leader surrounds himself or herself with people that are smarter than he or she is.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, it's not about one person.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if I was the you know, head of this organization or that, it's not about yeah, I'm driving the bus.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: But my role is to identify, recruit, nurture, celebrate.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: The smartest people that I can possibly find that are way smarter than me, if it's in marketing or event delivery or hospitality or you know, whatever, find those people that are smart, smart, smart.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then set the culture of the organization from an integrity point of view, from a planning, budgeting, you know, managing of budgets and and and and you know, event plans.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and let those people go.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: Let them do what they're good at.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: Keep an eye, regular basis, you know, always interacting with them, always being a part of it, digging in where something starts to fall behind, right?
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: Jumping on that, uh, supporting where necessary.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: But generally speaking, I mean, all of us, or those of us in that had the opportunity to be in leadership positions, you don't just go to the top, right?
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you work your way through an industry or an organization and you know what what what atmosphere, what setting high performance employees best work in.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because if the system's working properly, you were one of those junior people years before that were doing a great job and had to deal with good or bad leadership.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when that opportunity comes, it's like, okay, this isn't a power play.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's about, you know, accomplishing the mission that the organization exists for and the projects that you undertake along the way.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: Let people do their job, right?
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and and keep an eye and set the culture and all of that stuff, regular check-ins, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do things collaboratively, build an effective team structure, not in silos.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's pretty standard, but hire the smart people and then let them do their job.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let them go.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what, and and people inevitably, you know, this this has happened in my career, is some of the the real superstars, yeah, there's a time where they they leave.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe they start, and and some of them have started their own, you know, businesses and so on, and and you know, bless them.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: But but set that, let them go, manage them and and and celebrate them and promote them internally.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the first person I hired here in 2005, before the office even opened, Joyce Chai, um, from Malaysia, living in Singapore, she was a junior, relatively relatively junior marketing person.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: Promoted her throughout the years.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: She's now one of the best tournament directors in the golf division in ING.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: I still see her.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: She's amazing.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and promoted internally, celebrated, more responsibility, you know, and and and you know, worked with, you know, other tournament or a tournament director, Peter German, who's an incredible human being himself.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she saw, saw from the best, learned from the best, and and and she moves up the organization ladder like she should.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and to your point, comes up with great ideas like everybody else needs to.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't come from the top.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you you again, you're driving the bus and you've you know, you've got this holistic view, and you're, you know, you have exposure to other things.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're contributing.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: But some of the best ideas come from everybody else in the organization.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so creating that culture where people are are aren't afraid to take a risk or make a silly suggestion.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like you got to take risk.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: Calculate it.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_02: But as a leader, you recognize that, you foster it.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_02: You you foster that sort of upward gradients with it within the company, and you're able to come on, get that idea out.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be afraid to squeak it out.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it maybe, maybe these ideas are are are gonna be, you know, earth-shattering.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know, but yeah, but you have to take a risk and chance.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_01: You have to experiment, you you know, you stand still, you go backwards.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Now, about taking risks.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Six years ago, we were in the depths of COVID.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_02: After three decades in leadership, you decided to pivot and start Peregrine and Co.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_02: So with Peregrine and Co.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_02: what if there was still room to grow that leadership mind, what what changed?
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_02: What what was your what was your mindset at that time, like creating the company and what you wanted to do?
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it was a COVID was a reset for everyone, right?
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_01: In in in their own way.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that yeah, so that was a that was quite a pivot.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and and you know, the timing was the timing, to be sure.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it was for me going from such a large organization in IMG where there is an expert in at the time, um, there was an expert in anything somewhere within the family, yeah.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and it and and resources that definitely, yeah.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Then then at Falcon, much smaller, still great people, then going to my own.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: What you realize on my own, what you realize is that actually, you know, I haven't figured it out.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody has, but I'm comfortable in that journey in my own organization.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And having been around for a while, I've I've had the pleasure of working with a lot of people who are really good.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I can find those people, I can bring them in on a project basis or hire them as necessary.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't, of course, it was it was it was risky given the time of COVID and and the tail of that, because it just, you know, stuff got canceled and pushed out, and they were we were coming back, and then, you know, we weren't, and and that was that was certainly stressful.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but from a risk point of view, I didn't I didn't look at it as that much risk.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly there's financial risk.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that weighs on you know, anybody that has their own, you know, company um and the responsibility that you have to the people that work for you and to look after them.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And give me there's overheads and there's you know all that stuff.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And anytime there's a challenge, um, like these days, candidly, yeah, um, you know, you you you gotta be created a little bit of a reset right there.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta be creative.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and and ultimately, you know, as you go along, you're mindful that, yeah, we could have a curveball.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, stuff could go, stuff could go sideways.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if it does, then then what do we do?
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you're always thinking about that.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the risk didn't, the risk didn't honestly it didn't bother me.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_02: So what what do you think?
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so where do you see the next white space opportunity in the next five to ten years?
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is there do you see any opportunities in the in the in the next uh decade, perhaps, that that you think that we should be jumping on?
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, without giving away your exactly.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not I'm not gonna give you the recipe book here, but um no, I I I think there's there's a few things.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: One is the impact of of AI, to be sure.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the event business is going to um is going to thrive under that, I think in many ways.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the that certainly that that that experience economy that that that we all enjoy and most people enjoy.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is there wheels?
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: It might damage that though.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't think so.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think I think I worry about what I worry about, and I've thought about that a lot too, and and I I think about the content side of things.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think about the content is just not there yet in terms of developing research and and uh with AI uh as as you know as a human would do.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_02: We we know that a lot of groups uh have paid millions and just jumped into Chat GPT and gave some sort of results.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but it but I worry about the the content side.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_01: So so that's fair, but uh my my point is is the in-person experience at a tennis event or a Justin Timberlake concert or at a you know art event or at a fashion show or at that in-person experience economy will be that much more important and be that much more celebrated.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think AI and the opportunities that it gives us in terms of you know ticketing um strategies and and being more efficient with how we plan and that I think is that those tools I think are very helpful for us.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, same thing in from a sponsorship sales point of view, and all of the the the tools that we have at our disposal will make us more efficient.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the experience itself of going and and going to a World Cup final or going to uh you know Wimbledon, you know, whatever, the the Mubadla um Abu Dhabi Open tennis event or the you know Emirates Airline Dubai Rugby Sevens, that in-person experience will not go away and will be incredibly valuable to people, given all the other, you know, content that could be generated on your phone or on your you know on your other stuff.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just think that that's going to be celebrated quite a bit.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think AI is is an opportunity, is a white space.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's still being figured out in many ways.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's something interesting.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I think also the the television side and what's going to happen globally with TV rights, you know, with the emergence of the you know, Netflix and Amazons and those guys in with traditional cable television, that migration is very disruptive.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So much sport, if it's, you know, football, as in Premier League football or NFL football or whatever, is going to be is is dealing with the impact of you know the networks or the you know the cable companies, the skies and so on being pinched and not having the money to pay their rights fees.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens with that?
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really interesting, really interesting space.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I also think a white space is the third one that I would share is uh women's sport.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um we see this is not news to people that live in Europe or in North America, to be sure.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but women's sport is seeing its moment and is being celebrated, whether that be in you know, football or soccer or hockey or basketball or whatever.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's impressive.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_01: It hasn't arrived here yet.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: It it it hasn't really been celebrated in Asia as much yet.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um UAE just won gold in the Asian games with uh with martial art, with the I think it was wrestling or so to be sure, I guess I'm meaning more sort of you know, competitions or leagues or whatever.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've got yes, we've got the you know the the LPGA and golf and the WTA and tennis, but but but the the the expansion of um uh leagues of uh facilities um competitions is going to increase for women.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is how that manifests itself here, not sure, but I think it's it's um a lot is happening there, and and and and rightly so.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you very much, Greg.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_02: Really, really great to have you here.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Michael.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really really uh thankful that you could could make the time and uh um we wish you all the best with Peregrine and Co.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_02: and uh we'll hope to see you again soon.
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you for having me.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Here at the backdrop, we work hard to bring you the people, the stories, and the perspectives behind one of the world's most dynamic industries, events.
• 1:17:48
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• 1:17:54
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• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for watching.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_00: The backdrop was recorded live at One Central in Dubai United Arab Emirates.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was hosted by Michael McClennan and produced and edited by Dan Powell.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.