Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Worth Repeating: Why Some People Go Zero to Sixty with Anger (And Others Don't)
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict situations and the people involved in them. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:23): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:24): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute where we focus on training, consulting, coaching classes, educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. So today, bill, we're going to talk about anger, but first I thought I'd ask how your weekend went. Speaker 2 (00:48): Oh, well, it went fine. I actually spent a lot of time researching bullying for a new program. I'm going to be giving to probably 300 mental health professionals on dealing with child bullies and adult bullies. And so for me that was fun. I read a lot of research and some of the more recent stuff, it was very interesting, especially about online cyber bullying, et cetera. So it goes with my book, our New World of Adult Bullies, but child bullies are still there and they're online. Speaker 1 (01:29): Yeah, interesting, interesting. I didn't do any research. Speaker 2 (01:32): Yeah, I was going to say, how was your week? Speaker 1 (01:35): Well, as you can tell by my hair, it's not fixed today, and that's because I went to the sand dunes over the weekend and slept in a tent type of deal. So it was pretty messy, but I would normally still fix my hair, but I had a little accident in a side-by-side, kind of a beer version of a four-wheeler and took a nose dive down into the sand off of a little cliff. So kind of the biggest jolt I've ever had Speaker 2 (02:03): On Speaker 1 (02:03): My neck. So I'm really stiff and I don't feel like fixing my hair with a stiff neck. Speaker 2 (02:08): Yeah, take it easy on your neck. You're going to need it for a long, long time. Speaker 1 (02:14): Well, bill, that's a very good point because what I decided after that was no more of that kind of stuff. It's just too, your spine, your neck, everything is just too way too important. And I don't want to be in pain, nor do I want to be diverted from doing my career and my life in any way because, and it's just, yeah, those things are really precious. So no, no more of that. Speaker 2 (02:38): Yeah. Well, I'm glad you had fun until then. Speaker 1 (02:42): Yeah, it was fun. And we still even had fun after then, so it was all good, all good. But I didn't do any research on bullies, but interesting that you did. And I mean, I would think there's a lot of tie into anger and bullying, particularly not just for the bully, but even more so maybe for the person who is being bullied because that anger and resentment's going to build up, right. Speaker 2 (03:07): And that's part of the issue. Everyone gets angry, but what they do with it is the big question. And there's a lot of helpless anger that bullied people express that doesn't help them. So I'm looking forward to today's discussion. Speaker 1 (03:24): Helpless anger. Interesting. Okay, so last year a piece of research came out of Ohio State University and it was a meta-analysis of 150, I think 154 studies involving more than 10,000 participants. They were kind of looking at the myths that when you get angry, if you'll just vent about it, scream into your pillow, hit your pillow, scream into the wind, all of those things that will feel better after those, they found that maybe that's not really the case and that what really works to reduce anger is to lower your physiological arousal. In other words, turn down the heat. Sounds simple. We all know it's not that simple. Activities that increased arousal overall had no effect on anger and some activities made it worse, particularly jogging, which doesn't make any sense to me, right, because I was thinking that with dialectical behavior therapy, the right left, right left, getting the bilateral stimulation across between the two hemispheres of your brain as you walk, you're doing right, left, right, left, your eyes are going right then left and your arms are moving, your legs are moving, and the result being you feel better, you feel calmer with both hemispheres connected. Speaker 1 (04:54): So I would think that it would be the same with jogging. Are you surprised too? Speaker 2 (04:59): I am totally surprised because I recommend people go for a walk, maybe even go for a run as kind of use up that upset energy. You've got the cortisol flowing in the body and the adrenaline. And I had understood that some degree of physical activity was good for draining off those chemicals. So this is very good to know and that was only one solution, but I now will take that off my list. Speaker 1 (05:33): Well, I don't know. We'll have to dig a little deeper bill because it's surprising, really surprising to me because beyond draining off all the cortisol and that, I would just think that the physical movement, and again, that left right back and forth should help someone feel calmer. And I've even recommended to people that if they're going to have a difficult conversation with someone, maybe it's easier and will go better if you take a walk together. Speaker 2 (06:04): So maybe taking a walk is different from jogging. Speaker 1 (06:07): Yeah, we'll have to do a deep dive. I Speaker 2 (06:10): Actually already have some thoughts about that. Speaker 1 (06:14): Of course you do. So everyone experiences anger. Obviously in high conflict though there seems to be maybe a more intense anger all the way to rage. And we hear from many people who've said, look, I've dealt with someone that was in a very high conflict mode and I feel like I saw the most intense anger that I've ever seen in my life, just to the level of thinking that they're seeing red. And then you'll hear from the other person and they say, I was so angry, I literally could see red and that it goes so quickly, zero to 60 and just no time at all. And that's kind of my question and my thinking and why I thought it would be fun to talk about it this episode is why do some people go zero to 60 so quickly while others seem to have a little slower ignition time and can really pull that back? Do all people with a high conflict personality have a rage and anger problem, or is it just some, Speaker 2 (07:24): I think it's some. And we think of kind of five types of high conflict personalities that correspond with five of the 10 personality disorders. And there's so much information and knowledge about this, it's helpful, but keep in mind, not everybody with the personality disorders is a high conflict person preoccupied with blaming others. But let's take three for example. So borderline personality disorder, that's one of the characteristics is a difficulty regulating moods, wide mood swing, sudden and intense anger or rage. And often mental health professionals talk about borderline rage is something that we've all seen when someone just went off, like you said, zero to 60. So that's not unusual with someone who's a high conflict person and has borderline personality traits that you probably will see the rage and it probably will be directed at you at one point or another. Another one of the personalities, antisocial personality, by the way I might mention borderline and antisocial are predictive for domestic violence. There's a higher incidence of domestic violence from these two personality disorders. And I think what we're going to talk about today correlates with that because the rage turns into physical abuse and if people can calm the rage, they may be able to protect from the physical abuse, but antisocial is more calculated. And so you might see a rage that they decide, okay, now it's time to turn on rage and I'm really going to scare this person rather than that they can't control it, that they can turn it on, turn it off. Speaker 1 (09:19): So it's more conscious, Speaker 2 (09:21): More conscious, Speaker 1 (09:22): More conscious with the antisocial and with the borderline, it's just totally emotional dysregulation and not able to, they don't know what's happening. They're not planning on it. It just happens so quickly before their brain even knows it's happening, Speaker 2 (09:39): Right? It's just so fast. Let me mention also narcissistic personality, and there's two types here. A lot of people don't realize that one is the vulnerable narcissist who is real sensitive to criticism and such. And narcissists don't like criticism. They see themselves as superior. And so they'll go into a narcissistic rage, like a borderline rage. They're kind of similar. It just takes over and they'll talk about that this just took over. Whereas the grandiose narcissist is more like the antisocial and not as vulnerable and may go, I wonder if I'm going to use anger right now just to belittle the person and teach them a lesson and may not have that loss of self-control over it. So these three kind of personalities have two different ways of dealing with rage, but rage is common with them. And as I said, with borderline antisocial is actually the domestic violence. So finding ways, what's really encouraging about borderline is that they can learn to manage this. Programs like dialectical behavior therapy and such teach them distress tolerance and ability to calm themselves, including meditation and things like that. Antisocial are harder to learn as adults, but as adolescents, that's a really good time to teach. And some adolescents have changed behavior by learning dialectical behavior therapy methods, but these three seem to have more rage than most everybody else. Speaker 1 (11:26): Really interesting. I think that some believe that in high conflict, it's all unconsciously driven. The behaviors are very unconsciously driven. And I had someone in a class recently mention that it's easier for him to interact with people maybe that have an antisocial personality or traits, high conflict personality than it is with borderline. Because border, he posited that with borderline, you're not dealing with reality and antisocial, you are. So is that true? Speaker 2 (12:04): Well, to some extent. In other words, often the approach with the antisocial is to tell 'em there's a consequence for what you're doing now. You're going to go to jail or you're going to lose this job or something like that. And they may go calculation, recalculating not going to do that. Whereas someone in a borderline rage, you could say, if you do this, you're going to lose your marriage. And it's like they can't process it because the emotions have taken over so much. And what's an interesting thing when you're ready for it is some stuff about the brain, about the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex where with say, borderline, the amygdala thinks your life is in danger and you have to fight to defend yourself. And the prefrontal cortex isn't calming down your amygdala. Whereas what's interesting is with antisocial, the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala are almost reversed. So they can do a lot of calculating what I'm going to do with my emotions right now. And that can be so manipulative because people go, oh, this poor person. So they're burst into tears or they're really angry or whatever, and this is a more much more calculated approach for them. Speaker 1 (13:27): Interesting, interesting. So the prefrontal cortex is what tells the amygdala to slow down? Speaker 2 (13:35): Yes. And actually a very interesting thing is most of what adolescents is about is learning what's a crisis and what's not. Because the amygdala goes, oh my God, it's a crisis. Your girlfriend didn't call you back. It's already been 10 minutes, and your prefrontal cortex says it's only been 10 minutes and you're going to see her in an hour somewhere or whatever, or you're going to have a few more girlfriends, so you're going to survive not so wary. And it's like the prefrontal cortex can tell the amygdala to stop sending out all those cortisol chemicals and adrenaline chemicals. And that's why they say the adolescent brain isn't really fully developed until the mid twenties. And that's a lot of what it's doing. Speaker 1 (14:24): That prefrontal Speaker 2 (14:25): Is saying, what's a crisis and what's not a crisis? Whereas by 15, you're really trying to figure that out. Speaker 1 (14:34): So with borderline and those intense rages, that prefrontal cortex, it's there. It's not that it's missing, it's just not strong enough to override the amygdala response. Speaker 2 (14:48): I think that's a lot of what it is. And they talk about with borderline that a lot of borderline begins maybe around 18 months as an infant when you start learning to manage your emotions and for one reason or another, they don't learn that as well. And it's a lot about close relationships. So you might not see any of this rage and anger at the office, but when you live with this person, it's like, oh my goodness, here we go again. So it's that close relationship where you see this lack of self-restraint. Speaker 1 (15:27): Interesting because here we go back to my PhD in reality television, one of the shows I've been watching for many years, and it's about couples and one couple, the very first season we saw just outrageous behavior directed toward her partner, and this was before they were just dating at that point, but just screaming, raging, throwing things at him and all of that. And then they got married as you do. Here we are a few years later, and it seems she's appeared to be able to manage it in front of the cameras better, kind of in a performance setting. What he's saying is that behind the scenes things are horrible When they're at home, his life is hell. Speaker 1 (16:21): But the other people on the TV show, and what I've read about it online is there's this perception that he's the bad guy because he doesn't seem to want to be intimate with his wife, and she's this really hot babe, and he's not that attractive of a guy. So they're like, you've got a really hot girl. What are you doing? Are you punishing her? What's the problem? And he's like, you don't understand what my life is like at home. The ups and the downs and the rage and the insults and the put downs. And so I'm not saying that I'm not diagnosing anyone with borderline or anything else, but it seems really interesting. Like you said, bill, it's at home because it's that close relationship and that brain just can't get a grip on that. And it's like the brain is saying, you're not close enough to me. You're not doing enough for me. And there's this kind of big empty hole that can't be filled by that person, but they think it can. So then they think that person's always failing because they can't ever feel the need. Speaker 2 (17:21): Right. Speaker 1 (17:22): Then they get mad. Speaker 2 (17:23): Yes, exactly. Well, a lot of this is early childhood, first five, six years, and if a child isn't taught self-regulation or is abused or has an insecure attachment with their parent, they may not learn this emotional self-regulation, which you mostly learn by mirroring your parents and how they manage stress. And so if your parents aren't managing stress, you're not going to learn how to do that. But also this is learning close relationships. We learned that in the first five or six years of life, going to school, getting, being a teenager, getting a job, all that stuff is a different level and it's not as personal, but in close relationships, it's really personal. And that's where this shows up that they never learned it. And that's why what's exciting, especially with people with borderline traits is dialectical behavior therapy, some of the other cognitive behavioral therapies where they learn the self-restraint and self-management, which makes their lives so much happier that they didn't learn in their first five or six years either because of just not great parenting or maybe biological tendencies. Some people have great parents but still lack this piece. So there's hope, in other words. Speaker 1 (18:57): Yeah. So this same study, a few highlights from it, of all of the negative emotions, anger is the one people have the most difficulty regulating. So if in general that anger is the most difficult one for everyone, just imagine what it's like with someone who kind of has it at a traits or disorder level and really can't manage it, which, and I bring this up because I think it helps us to not judge and demonize someone that has really intense anger and rage. You just have to understand them and use a skill to help calm them. Activities that decrease arousal, anger, arousal, according to the study, breathing, meditating, counting, those kinds of things, I think really do decrease arousal. But for someone who struggles with a traits of one of these five personality disorders or high conflict personality, it's different. They're going to have a much harder time just so don't tell someone, well, you just need to breathe. You just need to calm down because it's so intense. And like you've said, this is primitive and it's crisis. It feels like crisis in some to a level of complete fight or flight. And that is power powerful. Speaker 2 (20:27): Well, let me say something. I want to say something about the high conflict personalities and why they have difficulty with this. Because the high conflict personalities are preoccupied with blaming others, and because of that, they're not working on themselves. So in other words, people with borderline personality disorder that aren't high conflict, people may go into DBT dial electrical behavior therapy and be really interested in learning how do I manage myself and my relationships better? But the high conflict people preoccupied with playing don't work on themselves. And so that's why you may see over the years of a relationship, absolutely no effort, and in fact, justifying their rage, their venting, well, look at what you did. You didn't put your socks away, so I have to teach you a lesson by raging at you, or you came home 10 minutes late, so you must be having an affair. Speaker 2 (21:25): And so I have to read you. So that's the difference I think with high conflict personalities is this preoccupation with blame shuts them off from learning. And that's sad. I see that in a lot of family court cases, even where people are ordered to take DBT and it doesn't take hold because they're high conflict people and preoccupied with blame. So I think that's one of the things is helping people look at managing themselves. And one of the things we teach in the New Ways for Families Method and also New Ways for Work Method is giving yourself encouraging statements so you can calm yourself. But that's a cognitive technique. That's why I'm interested in this research. So go ahead. Speaker 1 (22:14): Yeah, well, I was looking at that article about jogging, and firstly it says activities that increased arousal overall had no effect on anger, and some activities made it worse, particularly jogging activities that increased arousal or generally ineffective, but also produced a complex range of outcomes. Jogging was the most likely to increase anger while physical education classes and playing ball sports had an arousal decreasing effect. Suggesting to the researchers that introducing an element of play into physical activity may at least increase positive emotions or counteract negative feelings. Speaker 2 (22:59): Now that's interesting. Well, a thought you triggered for me is, and I would come back to this, my workplace high conflict person favorite is Steve Jobs. And so with the iPhone, iPad and all that, highly successful, but he had a reputation in Silicon Valley for being a high conflict person. And one of the things that worked with him was going on a walk with him. And so I remember when he was ready to fire like a whole division of 200 people, a project wasn't going the way he wanted. And one of his management team says, Steve, let's go for a walk. And they go for a walk for an hour. And he loved to go on walks. And so that was a really effective thing. He came back and had a much more nuanced response to here's what I want this division to do, rather than I'm firing everybody. So for him walks seemed to help. But what you just said, making it a positive connecting experience may be like, play that. That brings it down. That's fascinating. Speaker 1 (24:12): So PE classes and playing ball sports, Speaker 2 (24:15): Interesting. And maybe walking. Speaker 1 (24:18): Oh, because jogging is probably by yourself Speaker 2 (24:21): Generally, Speaker 1 (24:23): And classes and playing ball sports always involve other people. So maybe the connection piece Speaker 2 (24:31): That sounds, maybe that's the key. If I think of occasionally over the years I've gone jogging when I was angry and I remember I'm so angry, I am so angry. This person did such and such, and I don't remember, I mean, my vague recollection is just of exhaustion, Speaker 1 (24:55): Of talking to yourself or from running. Speaker 2 (24:57): Well, from the running and well, talking to myself too, but I can see that you can stay angry while you're jogging. Whereas if you're on a walk with someone or playing a ball game that the anger may really quickly fade away because you're having a good time that takes over. Interesting. Speaker 1 (25:17): Yeah. Really, Speaker 2 (25:18): I learn something every time. Speaker 1 (25:20): I know, I know. It's great. It's great. They sum that up by saying, going for a run is good for your heart, but it is not good for managing anger. And then they start the abstract with anger is an unpleasant emotion that most people want to get rid of. Some anger management activities focus on decreasing arousal, whereas others focus on increasing arousal. So the decreasing would be the deep breathing, mindfulness, meditation, whereas increasing is hitting a bag, jogging, cycling, that type of thing. They mentioned cycling in there, which is also kind of an individual activity, even if you're biking with someone else kind of jogging. So it's like the connection maybe is the thing. Which reminds me, I had a guy tell me this last week, he is had a lot of struggles with his spouse, argumentative and lots of anger. And so I've been working with him on connection skills and using your statements. And I mentioned eye contact. It's been about six months since he and I had worked together this last week. He said the thing that works the best for him is when his spouse is angry, he gives her eye contact, really gets pretty close to her and looks into her eyes and it calms her down. Speaker 2 (26:43): It's Speaker 1 (26:43): The connection. And to me it says, this is a person whose reactive brain is screaming for what it craves, which is connection. And when you give someone eye contact, that is an absolute connection and the brain must register that as so and responds in a positive way. Speaker 2 (27:05): Interesting, interesting. And in a way, this reinforces our your statement method because when someone's really angry, you want to get angry back or get away, and your statements are a calm way of connecting. And usually within 30 seconds they calm down 90% or more of people. But the eye contact piece, that's fascinating. That really helps. Also, another thing, and law enforcement does this a lot, is when they're dealing with a difficult person or maybe mentally ill person, someone who's seeming to be out of control is to get their first name. What's your first name? Speaker 1 (27:47): Oh, Speaker 2 (27:48): Yes. Okay. And then use that first name and say, I can see this is a hard time bill. Or Let's walk over here, bill or Bill, I think I can help you with this. And so using your first name, maybe that works a connection. Speaker 1 (28:05): Yeah, yeah. Connection and attention. It seems that that brain high conflict brain just wants, I need it to be all about me right now. So if I'm looking in your eyes, if I'm saying your name, I'm making it all about you right now. Speaker 2 (28:23): And this may fit with the early childhood piece. If there's an insecure attachment with a parent and the child is feeling disconnected. And for kids, rage is one of the things you do when you're disconnected to get reconnected and three year olds punch their parents' knees. I want attention. And they get attention. It may be negative attention, but if they could just say, I want attention and get it, they probably wouldn't have learned that anger is what you need to do. Speaker 2 (29:01): So it's fascinating stuff, but it's also important because I think the role models through the media, especially a lot of dramas and such, include outrageous anger. And there's a moment at which someone just blasts another family member or a friend and storms out of a room. And I remember I had that. I've had that happen a couple mediations, and I thought that's familiar. And remembering sitcoms in the middle of the sitcom, they go into a rage and storm out of the room and then by the end they usually make, and it's not a good role model for society to have people doing this rage stuff so easily. And that shift from I'm angry to I'm enraged, is very effective dramatically. But that's exactly what we want to teach people not to do. Speaker 1 (30:03): So let's move on to a book. You were recently reading, or I guess when you were researching for your book, our New World of Adult Bullies, I think it was called The Archeology of the Mind. Speaker 2 (30:16): Yes. Speaker 1 (30:16): So what did you find in that? Speaker 2 (30:19): What I found was fascinating, they really talk about the mind as the lower mind, which we share with all mammals and seven emotional systems, fear, rage, caring, concern for people expressing panic or grief. So connecting with them play is one of them, which is interesting. Lust, of course, keep the species reproducing and Oh, seeking. Seeking. That's it. Nice Speaker 1 (30:55): Work. Couldn't have done that. But Speaker 2 (30:58): When you think about that and you think about pets do all of these, you think about cows, goats, pigs do all of these and it helps them survive. But what's different about humans, or is supposed to be different is that we can manage our emotions and we can have conflicting emotions. We can be really angry at someone we love. And Temple Grandin, the autistic woman who's brilliant, help design farms really animal Speaker 1 (31:33): Cattle, pens, surgery. Speaker 2 (31:34): Yeah. What she says is, animals can only do one emotion at a time. And humans are unique that way because we can manage, do several at a time. But she said people with autism, or at least some people with autism have one emotion at a time. And so that's why she's so able to work with animals effectively because she can identify. I know she gets them, she knows. And I remember seeing her crawl through the cattle shoots and stuff like that to see what do I feel when I'm doing that? And she was brilliant because she redesigned a lot of stuff because of that. But the main idea here is that we have a higher mind that can manage our emotions and channel them so we can channel our anger into a work project. And really getting something done, lifting something that maybe you couldn't do if you weren't angry, you get everybody together and we lift this, raise a house or something, building houses, things like that. So the thing is that we need to refine learning how our higher mind can manage our lower mind so that we can succeed in today's world. Because you can't just get angry at your boss and keep your job like that. Speaker 1 (33:00): And all the rage we see on the highways as people drive and anger at sports games and now it's all kinds of things. A lot of unrestrained anger, and I think there's going to have to be a lot of calibration of that. There's too much unrestrained anger. And going back to the cows Bill just for a second, having grown up on a Speaker 2 (33:28): Farm, I know you know about them. Speaker 1 (33:31): You learn so much when you grow up around animals. So my grandpa had Herefords, the breed of cattle called Herefords, they're red and white and they're very docile. So during calving season, you could go up and put a tag in the Cal's ear right after it's born, give it its shot, vaccination, mess with it, whatever he needs to do, like we do when they're new. And the mom would just look over and go, okay, no problem. And you'd be fine. You did not have to fear the rage of the cow. And then dad shifted to black Angus cattle, Speaker 1 (34:13): And they're not like Herefords, lemme tell you. Interesting. They're the rages. Oh my gosh. They're hyper protective of their calves. And so it's always a risk of life and limb when you're out tagging calves of a black Angus mama because they're just so, they start pawing the ground and they're suspicious and they're paranoid about you. They're going to protect that calf no matter what. So you might get tossed in the air or something. You got to be fast. You've got to be very fast and very cautious. And that goes to kind of the point also of genetics. We all come from different, even we have a wise mind, a higher mind, and a lower mind still. We're all born a little bit different, and I think genetically some of us are going pop off easier than others. And if that that's you, you just have to know that about yourself. Don't beat yourself up about it, but do something about it. Figure out what your triggers are. There are many other impacts or instigators, I guess, and it could be stress, it could be hormones. Hormones have a huge impact on anger and the inability to control it at different stages of life. I mean, there lots of other things that come into play, maybe medications you're taking or things like that. So it's something that anger is normal. It is a part of our whole range of emotions, but not managing it is not okay. Speaker 2 (35:55): Exactly. We live in a world where you can't just do that. Like you said, just pop off on somebody. I really like what you're saying, and I really agree that we're all born different, and this is one area because a lot of the research on antisocial personality disorders as it's significantly genetic that a lot of people are born with those tendencies and possibly borderline as well. There's people that have these issues and come from families with really mellow parents and everything's loving and friendly, and they go into rages as a child, and it's like, this didn't come from this mom and dad. They're not mirroring this mom and dad, but learning about that has helped them so much learning, they can manage their emotions, and we teach in new ways for families that give yourself encouraging statements. And in a way, you're kind of connecting that way with yourself. You say People love you, or I can get through this. I've gotten through things before, and you can calm yourself and maybe represent that connection is my children loved me, and even though right now they're angry at me, it doesn't mean I'm doing anything wrong. I'm setting limits and they're angry about it. So I think what you tell yourself is, to me, always been one of the biggest ways to calm, anger and redirect it. But I'm excited to learn about what physically helps and what physically doesn't help. Speaker 1 (37:38): Yeah. Maybe we'll talk about that a bit more next week as well. Next week we'll be talking about some family court divorce type issues and how to be assertive. We were just talking, you and I last week, bill, about this, and I learned some new things about it being assertive, and it's changing the way I'm presenting information and in my training. So thank you for that. So we'll be talking about that next week. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Until then, keep learning and practicing. Be kind to yourself to others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing peace. It is All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.