Latest / Talk Commerce / Value-Based Marketing with Wordsmith Extraordinaire: Kristin N. Spencer

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Value-Based Marketing with Wordsmith Extraordinaire: Kristin N. Spencer · Talk Commerce

• Brent Peterson (00:02.286) Welcome to this episode. Today I have Kristen Spencer. Kristen, go ahead, introduce yourself, tell us your day -to -day role and one of your passions in life. Kristin N. Spencer (00:13.187) Alright, so I would say that I am the biggest word nerd that you've never met. And I have figured out a way to make money using words on behalf of my clients to get them paid what they deserve to be paid. And that's my favorite thing. And I have a lot of passions in life. One of them is music. I was actually one of the first girls to sing in Joffrey's Nutcracker in Los Angeles. I was part of the first... non all male choir. I think it was like 12. Brent Peterson (00:46.542) Wow, cool. My daughter had a voice scholarship for university. And it was Midwest, a lot of Lutherans, a lot of Lutherans. And so she went to a Lutheran anyways, choirs are a big deal anyways. So she did that too. Anyways, we won't get into that. All right. So before we get started, I'm going to tell you a joke. And all you have to do is tell me should that joke be free? Or do you think some point we should charge for it? Kristin N. Spencer (01:16.579) Okay, I'm ready. Brent Peterson (01:16.718) So here we go. I'm looking forward to watching the World Origami Championship. It's paper -view. Kristin N. Spencer (01:27.043) I think free. I think free, yeah. But I love the word play. I appreciate it. I'm here for it, but I think free. Brent Peterson (01:29.678) Yeah. Brent Peterson (01:35.278) Yeah, and actually that was just a coincidence. Sometimes I try to pick my jokes and I'm a little bit of a techie geek and I also have an open, I have an API to dad jokes and I was trying just to joke, boom, hit me, give me a joke and I'd have to hit it a couple times. So now I preview the jokes. All right, so Kristen, tell us a little bit about, let's start with avatars. Tell us. Kristin N. Spencer (01:54.947) That's smart. Brent Peterson (02:01.934) Tell us about avatars, how that helps with customers and did you like the movie? Kristin N. Spencer (02:08.931) So I love the movie. I love both of the movies actually. And my daughter, my middle daughter, I have two daughters and then also a younger son is obsessed with Avatar. Like we didn't introduce it to her until she was probably 12 and she loves it. So big fan of the movie. I'm not so much a fan of the actual concept. And can I tell you why? So client or. Brent Peterson (02:32.238) Yeah, cool. Kristin N. Spencer (02:35.555) Client avatars, or we would say ideal client avatars, ICP, right, is the lingo if you're in the business or the industry. They are naturally exclusionary, which means they are not helpful when we're trying to be inclusive. And they were also developed by marketing firms to make their jobs easier, not to make business owners' results better. So I am not the biggest fan of avatars because of those limitations. And I think we see, you know, you have kids. I have kids, the younger generations, they care so much more about their values. They care about brands that mesh with them. So they're not interested in being labeled in an avatar group. They have zero interest in that. They don't like it. Brent Peterson (03:19.854) Yeah, and just for the marketing folks, so avatar would be similar to a profile or a persona, right? A customer persona. Kristin N. Spencer (03:28.675) Right, so avatars deal with demographics, which is facts about you as a person, like your age, what brands you commonly buy, what type of living situation you're in, whether or not you're married with kids. And I don't like demographics as much as I like psychographics, which is a fancy word for the values you feel, your personality traits, and the convictions you have. Brent Peterson (03:53.838) Got it. Okay, so for myself then, maybe one of my demographics would be that I'm a big user of shampoo. Kristin N. Spencer (04:06.723) Yes, I mean, everyone needs soap. Brent Peterson (04:08.142) Yeah, I warned you that this could be the worst podcast of your way. So let's, let's keep moving. So, you're not a fan of avatars and you're obviously not a fan of like avatar, like a persona worksheets or ways to get like, when you're a marketing agency, you typically say, Hey, we want to develop a persona or I'm in the AI business. We develop a persona for the client who we're writing for. Tell us a little bit about why you dislike those worksheets. Kristin N. Spencer (04:23.171) Yes. Kristin N. Spencer (04:36.835) So it's not only me who dislikes these worksheets, but people that I've worked with who have previously had to do them would come to me and they'd be like, please tell me that you're not going to make me fill out one of those awful worksheets. And I'm like, I promise I won't make you fill out anything on your own. And the reason why is because someone who's not in marketing is not trained to even know how to fill out the worksheet. So it feels awful. And then the results are bad. So everyone's like, ugh. messaging. No, I don't want to deal with that. But they are being set up to fail. And that really bums me out. And I'm from Southern California. So I say bums me out quite frequently. Brent Peterson (05:15.534) But I think there's a responsibility that the marketing person, the junior marketing person has to go to their boss and say, hey, look, I've got this whole spreadsheet filled out. Kristin N. Spencer (05:26.883) I would ask and I do ask this because I'm a contrarian. I love to, you know, sort of poke the hornet's nest in marketing a little bit. I'd say, okay, cool. What are we going to do with that information now? What plan do you have to turn this information into money for us? Brent Peterson (05:42.478) That's a great segue. So if we're not going to use avatars and we want to work on psychographics or the psychographics of it, how do we collect that from the client? Kristin N. Spencer (05:55.555) So I have a seven page proven questionnaire that feels like it's only one page. I've been told by clients where I'm asking you questions that are designed to help me know as much as I can about you in very little time. And one of the things that I'm listening for is what is the main purpose of the business? And then I'm running that through the filter of is the person who's buying going to appreciate that that's the main point or do we need to adjust? the messaging from the ground up, which people love that when I come in and they're like, hey, fix this. And I'm like, okay, let's start over. And they panic a little bit. I'm like, let me tell you why we're gonna start over because this is how we're going to make you money and help you grow and scale. Brent Peterson (06:39.182) So when you say that you help people with words that sell, it's not just like, I'm going to give you the word the, and I'd like you to put it on Etsy. It's more than that. It's kind of helping people craft that. What would you call it then? If it's not a persona, it's not an avatar, what do you call it for the client? Kristin N. Spencer (06:59.331) So I say that it's a value -based marketing and I help them establish what I call touchstone principles, which is the idea that you can go back to this principle over and over again and weigh every single decision against it if you need to, to make sure that you are staying consistent because consistency is the biggest defense we have against client or purchaser mistrust. And that is the thing that all of us are fighting in marketing every single day. Brent Peterson (07:28.494) And do you help, I mean, do you see a difference in this for B2B or B2C, D2C, it applies to all across all disciplines? Kristin N. Spencer (07:38.339) It applies because any time we show up to sell, we're using words and we need to make sure that the words we're using are understandable to the person that we're using them for. And marketing is advocating, right? We're advocating for you to do this better. We're advocating for you to have this finally. And so it doesn't matter which kind of business that we're interacting with, but I do end up with a lot of B2B clients because... They need their other business purchaser to understand what they're selling. And sometimes it's really hard to have that objectivity when you're in the grind every single day. Brent Peterson (08:17.902) so I like actionable items and I'm going to say that we found, or I found you on LinkedIn or I was introduced to you on LinkedIn and you had a graphic that you created that said, I don't remember the name, but you, you, you know what it is. It's something like I'm looking for podcasts to do, right? Tell us about the inspiration behind that and how you used what you're doing to help sell, sell yourself in a way or sell your services or get. Kristin N. Spencer (08:34.403) Yeah. Brent Peterson (08:46.99) get on podcasts or what, like, I guess you have to start with your, what would you like as the end result, right? Kristin N. Spencer (08:53.475) Right. So I'm looking to go out and share the fact that traditional marketing is it has an expiration date. It's going to be phased out. And my podcast coach, Misha, who's a mutual acquaintance, was like, you should post about this. Like he was like, make the post right now while I'm on with you. So I was like, OK, I'm going to do what you say. I'm one of those people. I will try what you say because I trust you and I trust him. And he's like. but what you're doing is so different. You just need to lean into that instead of pulling away. So be a little bit more bold, which is something I've been trying to do, but it always helps to have someone who knows what your goal is in your ear telling you, go for it. Brent Peterson (09:37.134) Yeah, that's awesome. So you made the graphic, you posted it, and now give us some thought behind the word selling. Kristin N. Spencer (09:47.235) Yeah, so a lot of people, when they hear selling, it's almost like a bad word. They don't want to do it. And when I first got into this industry, I was very resistant because, you know, I have really strong morals and I didn't want to be that sort of high pressure salesperson. So I thought I'm not going to be good at this. But really, if we're curious. about the other person and what they need to hear in order to get the help that they really want, that's going to propel us forward. And a lot of business professionals don't like curiosity. They're nervous about it. They think it's going to destabilize everything they're doing, but it's been proven that the more curious people are, the better long -term decisions they make and specifically in business. Brent Peterson (10:36.174) Yeah, and I think chat GPT has proven that if you are just sitting and waiting for something to happen, your business can be greatly disrupted, especially if it's service based, if it's text based, if it's programming based. And now if it's audio or video based, it's all going to get really turned upside down. And if you're not listening to what the market is saying, and you're not pivoting with, with those type of things, you are going to get stuck. Tell, I wanna dig into a little bit about that apprehension about change. How do you coach people into leaning in themselves? You were able to do it, but how do you coach them into doing that? Kristin N. Spencer (11:22.755) So one of my professional superpowers is I know how people are feeling just from talking to them after a few minutes. It comes from working as a humanitarian worker who was with people who had survived human trafficking. And you cannot sit there and have them explain to you how they're feeling because they can't even conceptualize how they're feeling when they first get out of that. You have to be able to read their emotions and tailor whatever is going on so that they succeed. That was my whole job. It's helping them have their first job after that and succeeding in it so that they could build confidence. And so when I'm talking with someone, I want to know honestly what they don't want to do because so many of them are doing things they don't want to do and then it's difficult for them to show up. And no matter what amazing copy I give them, no matter if we write the best business nonfiction book and I write it in their voice, they will not be able to get momentum because they don't like doing that thing. Brent Peterson (12:28.974) Yeah, I mean, that's such a great point. They don't like doing that thing. Do you think that now there's a little bit of laziness that's happened in the marketing industry because they think that chat GPT is going to be the ultimate solution to all marketing problems and that there's things that people did that they can have somebody else do, but. the end of the day, somebody still has to do it, right? Do you think that there's gonna be sort of this complacency that happens and it's gonna spring back a little bit on, hey, well actually somebody has to schedule these posts or somebody has to do the social or somebody has to respond to it. Kristin N. Spencer (13:12.259) I think we're actually in chat GPT fatigue right now. And what we're seeing is all the people who thought that they could just phone it in and use software to create their content, all of their interactions with real people are crashing. It's not, they can't maintain. And I was just sort of kind of waiting to happen as I was getting asked on repeat constantly. Well, are you afraid that AI is going to take over your job? And I'm like, I'm not afraid because I spent a month testing everything it could do and everything I can do and I want every time. So I'm confident that we're going to come to a point where people realize, hey, other humans don't like being tricked by robots and thinking that that's a human when it's clearly not. And also AI doesn't have the same curiosity we do. And there's not the same potential for customization that we can bring when we're actually listening. Brent Peterson (14:09.198) Yeah, and I think one thing I had, I talked about yesterday with another guest was the fact that your chat GPT is never gonna buy your product or service. You're never gonna sell words to open to the chat GPT. There's gonna be a person at some point is gonna have to buy the service, use the service. Because we're selling, we're selling things for humans to consume and we're writing things for humans to read and we're creating video and audio for humans to listen to and watch and I think that that that somehow we're we're losing sight of the fact that we need to Humanize it which I thought was a good word that I recently picked on picked up on That we need to humanize the content to make sure that it's humanly readable And I think we're seeing a specific voice that's out there now that you can just pick and find those words. Like I'm going to use the word delve. Nobody has ever used the word delve in the last 50 years except for now. Now, and I think chat GPT is probably going to force us to start using delve more. Like I'm going to delve into that. No, who said that? Kristin N. Spencer (15:21.187) No. Kristin N. Spencer (15:32.355) Right. Well, and that's, you know, I'm a certified copy editor, so I really understand and appreciate language, and I had to study it as part of my certification process. And computers cannot appreciate common use. They don't understand it. And so Dive Into is a common use transition that we've made as a society, whereas Delve is grammatically correct. So... I don't think that computers will be able to understand those nuances because it's very difficult for us to teach them to other humans, let alone computers. Brent Peterson (16:10.862) Yeah, so I know that you have a book coming out, but you also have a quiz. How long does that quiz typically take? And can we do it in parts? Kristin N. Spencer (16:19.235) So it should take two, it's very short, it's 10 questions, they're simple questions. It should take you between two and three minutes from what other people have said. And it tells you basically what your purchasing type is in the realm of business land. So we use Alice in Wonderland characters to do that. But the bonus is you can actually take the quiz as your favorite client or most profitable client and see. these are the purchasing traits that I'm looking for actually when I go out and create content. Brent Peterson (16:53.678) All right, so I didn't ask you this in the green room, but do you want to do a quiz right now? Kristin N. Spencer (17:00.099) sure. Let's be curious about what could happen. Brent Peterson (17:01.998) and give our listeners, and you can quiz me, I'll be Avatar, the cartoon guy that goes underwater. Kristin N. Spencer (17:07.715) Okay. Kristin N. Spencer (17:15.299) Alright, so am I running the quiz? Is that how it's working? Okay. Brent Peterson (17:16.494) Maybe not. Yeah, you have to run the quiz because I don't know what the questions are. Kristin N. Spencer (17:21.987) Okay. Sorry, I'm using my really, really loud keyboard because I use it when I'm writing a book. Brent Peterson (17:31.278) It's okay. Kristin N. Spencer (17:32.291) you can hear it. Okay are you ready? Brent Peterson (17:36.174) Go. Kristin N. Spencer (17:37.859) Which answer matches you best? I take the time to notice what is going on around me, but my focus for individual tasks surpasses the importance of any demands my clients or team members place on me. Deep down, I know whatever is good for the group is the best decision overall, even if it means I don't always get the credit I deserve. The benefits of the group as a whole are what really motivate me. When it comes to making professional choices, I'm half interested in what's best for me and half concerned with what will help others, and I notice things that others don't. Even though people can't tell how observant I am at first, I notice everything and ask follow -up questions that often surprise others. While I try my best to be as friendly as I feel, sometimes my facial expressions can be read as shy or uncertain, that's me for sure, especially in big meetings where I care so much. This might be hard for you to keep track of actually, because there's five answers for each one. Brent Peterson (18:36.814) So that was, was that the first question and you gave me the five answers? Okay, so I think it's probably gonna be D, although my wife would disagree. Kristin N. Spencer (18:40.483) Yep. Kristin N. Spencer (18:49.045) the observant. Brent Peterson (18:50.478) Right. I'm getting better now that I do interviews. But I think she would say if we're sitting outside doing something else, then I'm oblivious to what she's saying and I'm watching everything around me. Kristin N. Spencer (19:04.099) I mean, that's me and my marriage, so. Brent Peterson (19:06.734) I think in a business setting though, I'm trying to listen and be observant. Kristin N. Spencer (19:11.683) Right, right. And that's, I mean, that's a good distinction, right, to know that about yourself. That's so much self -awareness that I'm proud of you right now. All right, next one. While I look somewhat extroverted from the outside, my mind is a wealth of private information and that helps me to plan things as well as I can, but I know that I can't control every outcome. My brain brings up important points on autopilot and I sometimes second guess myself after conversation has taken place or I've delivered a good or service to a client. Being thoughtful is a great skill to have, especially because being discreet has kept me out of difficult situations in the past. It is helpful in my opinion if others help me understand the benefits of what they provide as fast as possible. Once I am convinced that I should take action, I do, and without any second guessing. Before I make that decision, though, I want to take the feelings of others combined with my own thoughts into consideration. Brent Peterson (20:19.278) Wow, can I do F all of the above? Do I have to pick one of them? Kristin N. Spencer (20:22.147) No, you can't, because then you won't get a good answer. Brent Peterson (20:25.582) Right, yeah, I'm gonna go with A. Kristin N. Spencer (20:29.155) Okay. Wow, we're very similar. Brent Peterson (20:31.63) But all of those are really tough because, you know, I definitely do a little bit of all of that. Kristin N. Spencer (20:38.019) And I think, you know, there are people who, and these are based on personality trait scales. So there are people who tend more toward one side. And then there are people who are like in the middle for every category. And you have to say, okay, what offer then, what about my offer is going to fit someone who is maybe not in the middle? Because if you're going for everyone, you're going for no one, right? As the marketing idiom goes. Brent Peterson (21:02.062) Yes, exactly. I get that. Kristin N. Spencer (21:07.299) All right, next one. When things change in a project, I am totally ready to pivot. All the information I've been gathering in the background will serve me well. Working with others is mostly an inconvenience. Innovation has the potential to create progress, so I'm excited about non -traditional business methods. I have always been curious about the perspective of others and want to use new information to update the way that I reach out. to those I work with. While I've been known to sit back and gather data, I also know when to dive in and get to work. The people I work with would describe me as a self -starter. Brent Peterson (21:46.99) Hmm. I was going to say C, but I think E might be better for me. Kristin N. Spencer (21:53.859) So you're into data then. Brent Peterson (21:55.854) Yes. Kristin N. Spencer (21:57.283) Okay, awesome. All right, here we go. Next one. When people speak simply and clearly, I tend to do work that gets better results, but I want my ideas confirmed before I take action. Traditional approaches. No. You just want it. You're just that. That's the one. Are you like a gut feeling person? Okay, we're just going to the next one then. A for that one. Brent Peterson (22:13.55) Can we stop right there? I'm just gonna say A. Okay, go. Go, just keep going, sorry. absolutely. Okay. Because people are gonna wanna download and get these questions on their own too. Kristin N. Spencer (22:27.715) Okay. Kristin N. Spencer (22:31.747) Yes, for sure. That's true. We don't want to spoil everything for them because the sense of discovery is super fun. Brent Peterson (22:36.622) We can use Chetchu PT to rewrite the words. Kristin N. Spencer (22:39.267) I don't need your GPTN. Brent Peterson (22:40.91) I really want to delve into that. I aim to find a better way. Go. Sorry. Kristin N. Spencer (22:47.011) No, I love it. So timing is everything and I know when to speak and when to wait. My discipline is what makes me so good at what I do. While other people might not see my progress, I know it's there and it keeps me headed in the right direction. Everyone around me notices my confidence and quick decision making, but they don't see it as arrogance. They know I always do my homework. When someone is describing a concept or method I don't already understand, it is important that they clearly describe how using this new information will help me and what potential risks might show up. While other people might not see my progress, there's a double one in there. I've got to go back and fix that. I just found a typo. Okay, I'm making a note for myself. Brent Peterson (23:35.95) I'll go with B. Brent Peterson (23:39.886) We're both doing great here. I'm doing your proofreading. Kristin N. Spencer (23:43.331) the I know I have proofread it, but you know, other eyes, that's the rule. You have to get a second pair. And none of my proofreaders noticed it. So I'm so thankful to you right now. All right. I know that getting the end result you want is what is most important, even if the process is messy. Brent Peterson (23:48.43) I know. Yes. Brent Peterson (23:54.51) Ha ha ha ha ha! Kristin N. Spencer (24:06.947) Before people come to me with a list of things they want me to do, I want to be sure they have a list for themselves ready to go. Being creative comes naturally, which means I'm constantly open to better updated approaches. I know I don't keep the neatest desk, but colorful office supplies and toys help me do better work. The end result is the most important thing to consider, and there are multiple ways to get there. And if someone thinks I'm being brash because I'm communicating in the most straightforward way, I'm okay with that. Brent Peterson (24:38.862) Well, I'm going to say E. And actually, ChatGPT has helped me write better emails because I am very short in people. It's funny, in texting and email, people will assume your mood by how short your words are. And I had been, have been, a believer in short and succinct. Kristin N. Spencer (24:53.763) Yeah. Kristin N. Spencer (25:02.531) I am the same. And then, you know, my developmental team is like, your book has to be at least 60 ,000 words. I'm like, but I could write it in 30. They're like, no one cares that you could write it in 30. I'm like, all right, fine, fine. All right, next one. Not all outcomes matter to me, but I do want what's best for the team. This is especially true when I'm having a good time. My convictions are strong, but I am also trusting of those around me, assuming that most people really want to help. Yes. Brent Peterson (25:12.106) You Kristin N. Spencer (25:31.267) The end result is important, but having fun while getting the work done is a personal priority for me. Making sure to cooperate with those around me is really important, even if it means I say one thing to preserve unity and leadership meetings, but work in the background to make sure everyone is succeeding. Or outcomes are what matter most. Brent Peterson (25:51.758) Wow, I like C and D, but I think I might go with D. Kristin N. Spencer (25:56.355) Okay, you're a team person. Brent Peterson (25:59.502) Yeah. Kristin N. Spencer (26:01.635) I like that. All right, determination is one of my best qualities. Life has taught me to be careful of others, especially when they have not proven to be flexible or to provide me with information that supports their previous decisions. When others see me as contrary, I'm okay with it. My alternative approaches have proven to work well in the past. If someone is trying to help me or sell me something, it's really important for me to know that they're listening to what I'm saying. with the results I've seen and make sense that I'm proud of the good decisions I've made in the past. I also know that I can be stubborn sometimes, but it's not bad. Brent Peterson (26:41.39) Well, we'll go to E. Kristin N. Spencer (26:44.387) Alright, we've got two more. Okay, extra assurances are always welcome from my perspective, especially when I have a specific goal and want to see certain end results. It's better to take action than to wait and see. Or, I don't often feel stressed when making a decision. Being vulnerable is okay with me. I can figure out a way through situations even when I don't have the obvious advantage. Or finally, Knowing all of the potential risks before I make the decision helps me deal better with stressful situations and I'm happy to pay. Brent Peterson (27:20.782) Hmm, I'll go see. Kristin N. Spencer (27:24.163) so you're more relaxed. Alright, here we go, the final one. Once I make a decision, there is no other option but to follow through. If I'm flexible, I might make a mistake and I can't have that. There are lots of different ways for us to solve each problem and I'm quick to share when I think something needs to be adjusted. Controlling my personal and professional journey feels totally possible. I can make amazing decisions and control how I react. In general, the things that are going on around me don't have a huge effect on how I see myself or my performance. I'm confident we can always find a solution for each problem. Or I'm quick to point out what others do well and what they need to adjust. It's a delight working with those who can stay calm, even in situations that have the potential to be tense. Knowing I can ask those around me questions to help me clarify what's going on is extremely valuable to me. Brent Peterson (28:21.39) Wow, I really like E. I'm gonna go with E. Kristin N. Spencer (28:23.171) Okay. Kristin N. Spencer (28:26.691) Alright, so I'm going to fill this out as you and then put my email in. Brent Peterson (28:36.174) You must be on a PC if you're making that much noise. Kristin N. Spencer (28:39.427) I told you it's not it's my crazy keyboard. I'm on a Mac. I'm a Mac person. Okay, so in the in the world of business land, you are most like the Mad Hatter. Brent Peterson (28:44.014) Okay, all right. I, yeah. Yes. good. I do snack on mercury, so. Kristin N. Spencer (28:56.931) Mean it wasn't his fault right but the good the potential qualities of the manhatter are they display emotions want benefit focused language They examine their feelings. They're innovative confident and they desire high quality outcomes Brent Peterson (28:59.502) You Brent Peterson (29:11.758) That's good, I love that. Yeah, well, and we just met. Thank you. All right, so let's spend a little bit of time, tell us a little bit about your book that you're writing and when will it be finished and can I get it? Kristin N. Spencer (29:14.787) I feel like that's you. Kristin N. Spencer (29:30.947) So it's supposed to come out this fall. It's probably going to be a little bit later fall because I've had to rewrite part one three times, which is not normal for me, but I'm working with two amazing coaches who are helping me get the best end result into your hands. So it is about being curious about which words sell and basically be giving yourself permission to ask so many questions and to engage that curiosity. And I teach you how to be more curious because it sort of stamped out of us, right? As we go from being children to adults, people are like, why are you asking this many questions? And especially in the professional world, we're taught, like, don't ask a lot of follow -up questions. And that is how I found I was doing my best work and getting the best results for clients. So I was like, I'm going to talk about this a lot more, but in it, I also break down some of the most useful sales psychology that we have. in a way that relates to Alice and her journey through Wonderland where she's trying to sell herself a way out of being stuck in a place that she got to by burning curiosity. And I feel like that's sort of the situation we're all in professionally. Brent Peterson (30:44.622) Yeah, that's such a good analogy. I appreciate that. So tell us how people can get in touch with you. And we'll put all these in the show notes so we don't have to, but it helps to have if somebody's in the car, they can listen and tell us the easiest way. Kristin N. Spencer (30:55.363) So if. Kristin N. Spencer (31:03.363) Yes, so if you want to take the quiz, just go to alisquiz .com. Super easy. And if you want to talk to me, I would love to chat with you on LinkedIn. I'm under Kristen and Spencer or slash Kristen Spencer writes. And that's where I hang out most of the time. And if you're interested in how you can use value based marketing to propel your business forward to do what you want, you can check out lit .com. Brent Peterson (31:31.246) That's perfect. All right, so final question. In the green room, we talked about this conference that I was at, and one of the speakers was talking about comedy, using comedy in your business writing. And I hadn't really thought a lot about that, but it made me kind of think more about what I should have in there, and then. Kristin N. Spencer (31:45.827) Yes. Brent Peterson (31:57.646) Maybe people don't need to always take everything so seriously, but there's also spots where you'd need to not be sarcastic so there's no confusion over the copy, right? What is your feeling about where you should offer comedy in your content and where you should be a little bit more serious? Kristin N. Spencer (32:07.907) Right, right. Kristin N. Spencer (32:18.307) So there's actually a book called Humor Seriously. Have you heard of it? you're taking, sorry. No, so it's great in that the authors are not actually successfully funny in it, even though they're trying, but because they're trying at all, you naturally trust them. And that's what they prove with research in the book, throughout the book. So you don't actually have to get the laugh. You just have to attempt to get the laugh. And that... Brent Peterson (32:21.646) Hmm. Kristin N. Spencer (32:43.555) wins you so much trust and building trust is one of the main tasks in any marketing. And I will say I have struggled with this balance for years to where I was like, how do I insert my humor without seeming silly? And in this new book that I've been working on, my mentors, like you finally got it. So this is my way that I've finally figured it out is I put the jokes I want in and then I take half of them out. So the first writing, I'm putting the jokes in. The second one, okay, I have to delete 50 % which ones are gonna make it. And that's the balance that I've been able to work out. Brent Peterson (33:20.046) And who determines the ones that have to stay? Is it you? Kristin N. Spencer (33:23.971) It's me, but also I have my husband's voice in my head because he's the best at being like, no one's going to understand this joke or this is too over the top or you're just putting this in here because of nostalgia, which nostalgia plus humor equals danger. That's what I'll say. Brent Peterson (33:39.822) make sense yes okay so yes I did humor seriously that's a thank you for the tip so Kristen as we close out the podcast to give everybody a chance to do a shameless plug what would you like to plug today? Kristin N. Spencer (33:57.795) I would love to plug my ghost writing services. If you want a book and you feel like you need a book or lots of people have told you you need a book, don't try to become a writer overnight. The best way to do it is to work with someone who knows how to take your voice out and put it on the page with a specific goal. So I always tell my clients, the book is a strategic tool and we need to know what it's pointing toward. I just... A few months ago stopped working under Forbes Books as one of their ghost writers on their bench. And the reason why it was because I didn't like the way they were supporting their authors with the after the book part, because they were like, there's the book. Good luck. I'm like, no, we have to build the systems into the book beforehand. So if you want to talk about a business book, which is an amazing tool, if you have the right team, I love that. Brent Peterson (34:47.47) All right, perfect. And I will make sure we get all the contact information on the show notes. And we'll also have a link to your quiz that people can download. Kristen Spencer, as we discussed earlier, no relation to Diana Spencer or the family Spencer's. It's been such a great conversation today. Thank you so much. Kristin N. Spencer (34:55.875) Amazing. Kristin N. Spencer (35:04.611) Unfortunately, no. Kristin N. Spencer (35:10.243) Thank you for having me and I appreciate this opportunity and for you to share your audience with me is really special.