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Why Do We Resist Kindness? · Life In Flow Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Life In Flow podcast.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: The three of us, Yulia, Polina, and Irina, are exploring what Life In Flow and Flow In Life is.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Join us as we experiment, test our diverse hypotheses, and have fun in the process.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Will we find an answer?
0:23
SPEAKER_00: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that
0:35
SPEAKER_00: the conversation itself becomes a group flow experience.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: Go beyond the intellectual information.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: Listen with your whole body.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: And notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind, body and energy flow together.
1:33
SPEAKER_02: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Life In Flow podcast.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm Yulia.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: I'll be facilitating loosely this episode.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: And here is also Polina and Irina.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: And today we're going to
2:01
SPEAKER_02: reflecting on exploring kindness.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: And it's our tradition to bring a question.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: I think in the context of our emergent conversations, I'm going to pause on the question.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: I'll say I want to explore kindness and then we'll see where it leads us.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: So I very much welcome whatever there is that we end up talking about,
2:41
SPEAKER_02: which aspect of kindness and where it leads us.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to emergence and to mystery in this exploration.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: And before we begin,
3:01
SPEAKER_02: I am going to give you a little bit of context of how this question,
3:09
SPEAKER_02: interest in kindness came about, was not expected at all.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: I first exchanged with someone On Substack,
3:23
SPEAKER_02: those were very, very nice exchanges that I really appreciate.
3:27
SPEAKER_02: There is something about,
3:28
SPEAKER_02: her name is Alicia Kwon,
3:31
SPEAKER_02: that to me very much resonated where she is in life and what kind she is exploring.
3:36
SPEAKER_02: And one of her questions and invitations one day was,
3:41
SPEAKER_02: can people share with me small acts of kindness?
3:49
SPEAKER_02: And the first reaction that I had was my favorite being, a sense of resistance came up.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: And then she was sharing just like really some where,
4:07
SPEAKER_02: you know,
4:07
SPEAKER_02: there's some exchange and some friendliness happening between people
4:12
SPEAKER_02: who don't know each other or like small encounters where people do something Nice
4:19
SPEAKER_02: and no strings attached for each other, but something really small.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: And it got me thinking,
4:26
SPEAKER_02: I was like, I'm going to come up with a story about this small acts of kindness.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: And I could not.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't really remember either receiving an act of kindness or giving one.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: It's like, hmm.
4:45
SPEAKER_02: What is kindness about anyway?
4:47
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't on my radar for a long time.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: And then something interesting happened.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: I was in this training called Fishing for Shadow.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: And there was someone there who, we were sleeping in the same space.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: And he took this really cool spot where he could sleep outside on the balcony.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: If there was no rain and then just like move inside if there was rain.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: And based on the exchange that we had with each other,
5:21
SPEAKER_02: he knew that this was something I really, really wanted.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: But he had been there before and I was late.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, love story, he got the place.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: So what can I say?
5:35
SPEAKER_02: And then on my last night there,
5:39
SPEAKER_02: And there hadn't been really any conversations about me asking him something.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: I was like, of course, you know, you took it, so it's your place.
5:51
SPEAKER_02: And he just kind of like casually passing me already on the way to brush his teeth.
6:00
SPEAKER_02: He's like,
6:01
SPEAKER_02: by the way,
6:02
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to offer you if this is of interest and if you want to take it,
6:08
SPEAKER_02: Take my place on the balcony tonight.
6:11
SPEAKER_02: And again, like, feel free to take it or not take it.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: It's totally up to you, but I wanted to offer that.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, first I was,
6:24
SPEAKER_02: I think I froze a little bit from how unexpected it was.
6:29
SPEAKER_02: And then gradually it started unfolding and it's still, it's been unfolding like ever since.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: Because that night on the balcony,
6:41
SPEAKER_02: as I slept on the balcony,
6:42
SPEAKER_02: I also was able to recall my first dream during those five days.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: And everyone was having dreams like every day and doing their dream work and me not.
6:56
SPEAKER_02: And on that night,
6:57
SPEAKER_02: a dream that I saw was like the biggest and the craziest dream ever in my life.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: And somehow in my Mind, those two came together.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: There was something really magical in that act of kindness.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: And also the way that it was extended was very special.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: So I wonder what it is about kindness that maybe is so important,
7:29
SPEAKER_02: but at the same time, what is it about kindness that makes us turn away from it or
7:35
SPEAKER_02: Makes us resistance about it.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: Like all those questions.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: I do have questions planned.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: But for now, this is just some context for you.
7:50
SPEAKER_02: And I want us to start with creating like a kindness soup.
7:58
SPEAKER_02: And the kindness soup is where with no specific order,
8:02
SPEAKER_02: I invite all of us Kind of offer some words or phrases into this big cauldron where
8:12
SPEAKER_02: the soup is cooking.
8:14
SPEAKER_02: And it can be something somatic,
8:17
SPEAKER_02: how kindness feels,
8:19
SPEAKER_02: or maybe something that an experience with kindness,
8:25
SPEAKER_02: but it's more like a short sentence or a phrase or one word.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: So it's like how many things, different things can we
8:35
SPEAKER_02: Gather in this cauldron so we can a little bit touch maybe the richness
8:41
SPEAKER_02: or different facets of kindness.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: And when you say kindness, what is our working definition?
8:54
SPEAKER_02: We'll work on our working definition a little bit later.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: For now, I leave it up to you.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: So we can start already?
9:14
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: Let us start.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: A smile.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: Warmth.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: Welcome and a hug.
9:38
SPEAKER_02: Healing.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: Pleasant heaviness.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Softness.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Tenderness.
9:52
SPEAKER_02: Pauline, can you say it again, sorry?
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Softness.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: Tenderness.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Definitely tenderness.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Sweet song.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Feeling.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: A very gentle embrace.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: Openness.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Welcoming.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: Shiny eyes.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: The sun.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Sunny.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: Light.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Freedom.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: Endless horizon.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: Undulating.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: Being.
11:29
SPEAKER_02: Intimacy.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: Permission.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Connectedness.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Attunement.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Respect.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Response.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Invitation.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: One more?
12:21
SPEAKER_02: Anyone?
12:21
SPEAKER_00: Or shall we?
12:23
SPEAKER_00: Hands.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: Like open hands.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Perpetuity.
12:39
SPEAKER_02: What a word.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: I think we're going to have...
12:49
SPEAKER_02: Really nice soup for stew.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: We can all take a dip.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: I'll take a spoonful.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
13:02
SPEAKER_02: Whatever it feels like.
13:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: And with that, let me ask my first question.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Polina, for checking in.
13:12
SPEAKER_02: And the question is, what is kindness?
13:29
SPEAKER_00: I think that kindness is two different things based on whether someone's giving or receiving.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: And how are they becoming different?
13:49
SPEAKER_00: It's a different energetic because it's a different intent behind the act,
13:56
SPEAKER_00: whether you're giving or receiving.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: It would, it would be, it would be connecting to different aspects of yourself and energies.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: Can you say more Berlin?
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Motivation is different because in, in, Giving,
14:17
SPEAKER_00: on the giving side of kindness,
14:22
SPEAKER_00: there's a motivation,
14:23
SPEAKER_00: a move toward, but that it would be different for the receiver.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: The motivation would be different, the intent, the move internally would be different.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: And can you speak to what it would be?
14:43
SPEAKER_02: What exactly it would be?
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, like for example, let's say it's someone wants to do something caring for someone.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: And let's say if kindness is warmth and giving
15:14
SPEAKER_00: attention and care and like a reaching out,
15:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm touching something that's moving me to reach out and show or offer care.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: The person on the receiving end would have to connect with receiving care,
15:37
SPEAKER_00: which is a totally different mechanism and a different motivation.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: Um,
15:42
SPEAKER_00: and they would also have to be attuned to the other person to know Like to sense,
15:51
SPEAKER_00: is this being given freely?
15:54
SPEAKER_00: What is the energy coming from this person?
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Do I want to receive this energy from this person?
15:59
SPEAKER_00: Do I have capacity to receive care from another person?
16:02
SPEAKER_00: It's like a whole, there's like a thousand things I feel like that happen on both sides of this.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: That just this one word doesn't necessarily capture.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to paint the picture.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Is it working?
16:18
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like a dance,
16:24
SPEAKER_02: giving and receiving that takes a lot of attunement.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: A lot.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: And what makes kindness specifically different from other types of giving and receiving?
16:55
SPEAKER_00: For me, kindness...
16:57
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm speaking again,
16:58
SPEAKER_00: but for me,
16:59
SPEAKER_00: kindness... Actually, this was another question for you before Ira speaks.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this is accurate or not,
17:07
SPEAKER_00: but for me,
17:07
SPEAKER_00: kindness...
17:12
SPEAKER_00: For it to be kindness,
17:14
SPEAKER_00: it has to be... Or at least to some degree, it has to be given freely...
17:22
SPEAKER_00: And without an expectation of getting something back.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: And out of like just the energetics of care and love and,
17:36
SPEAKER_00: you know, maybe empathy.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if it's possible to really truly express kindness to another human.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Like if in our patterning and our programming,
17:54
SPEAKER_00: it's possible to not have any selfishness around it.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, is it always also generating a sense of something back to the giver?
18:05
SPEAKER_00: Potentially,
18:07
SPEAKER_00: the fact that we're able to Receive as we give is one of the motivating factors
18:14
SPEAKER_00: of why we're even able to give or even able to touch empathy.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know if it's possible to be kind
18:21
SPEAKER_00: and completely have zero anything coming back to you as you extend kindness.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: But I would hope that there's more of warmth and care and also
18:43
SPEAKER_00: not
18:44
SPEAKER_00: the internal need driving it so it's cleaner in the exchange.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: And yet I don't know actually to what degree we're capable of that.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: Because if we were to really unpack this whole mechanism, I think it's quite complex.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Do I understand it right that for you,
19:11
SPEAKER_01: for kindness to be true, the way how you feel it, it has to be selfish.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: If it's not selfish, it's not kindness.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: The opposite.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: I would hope that it's less selfish.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: Selfless.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Selfless, yes.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: I would hope that that is part of the equation to at least some degree.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, the majority of the act is more selfless.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Even though I understand that as humans and the way we're patterned and designed,
19:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's possible to really truly do a completely selfless act.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: But I'm hoping that in that exchange, there is some selflessness.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Because energetically would then be, for me,
19:58
SPEAKER_00: would be much easier to accept and like be truly with this gift that's being given
20:05
SPEAKER_00: and like just take it for me without having to Have to gauge and worry
20:10
SPEAKER_00: about what does this mean for you?
20:12
SPEAKER_00: What am I going to owe you?
20:16
SPEAKER_00: Do I have to worry about what state you're going to be in now
20:18
SPEAKER_00: that you're giving me this act of kindness?
20:25
SPEAKER_02: Many questions about the act of kindness.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: Irv, what would you say kindness is?
20:36
SPEAKER_01: I think that at the moment my perception is different from what Paulina described in
20:45
SPEAKER_01: the sense is that it seems to me so like I feel that
20:50
SPEAKER_01: the kindness itself is just like certain types of vibration of the energy and
21:03
SPEAKER_01: It's a totally different matter how we connect to this energy from both sides,
21:09
SPEAKER_01: from the giving side and from the receiving side.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: And
21:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that I would necessarily
21:27
SPEAKER_01: put the equal sign between the kindness
21:30
SPEAKER_01: and selflessness.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Because again,
21:34
SPEAKER_01: it's selflessness or not, the degree of it, it's about how we connect to the energy.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: But the energy itself,
21:48
SPEAKER_01: I would say,
21:49
SPEAKER_01: yeah, it's sort of the mix of, not between, the mix of openness, love, tenderness.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: What was the last word?
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Welcoming.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: I like the way you described it because it really is a frequency that we interact
22:20
SPEAKER_00: with, like we engage with.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: It's funny because actually it's almost like it's a frequency that exists outside
22:29
SPEAKER_00: of us and it's something we can access or not access, touch, engage with.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: I also don't think it means, like it's not synonymous with selflessness.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: It's just my selfish desire is that when I am given an act of kindness,
22:48
SPEAKER_00: there's enough energy of selflessness in there and some selfishness.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: Because again, I don't know if humans are capable of true, full, 100% selflessness.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: But I would love it.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: It would feel good for me if there was at least some degree of selflessness.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't owe you anything as you're giving me this.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: As you're directing the energy of... Yeah.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think I can understand this desire.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: I may even can relate to it.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: But again, from my perspective, it's more...
23:25
SPEAKER_01: It talks about not the kindness itself, but about the different social mechanisms that...
23:34
SPEAKER_01: Influence our relationship with this energy.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's true.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Very good way to put it.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: So you're saying this energy is there and it can be sensed and
23:49
SPEAKER_02: then it can be shape shifted or filtered in various ways by The social structures or
23:57
SPEAKER_02: by the human system of interaction with each other.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're saying?
24:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
24:04
SPEAKER_01: it's always like in the acts of kindness and how we give it and how we receive it
24:10
SPEAKER_01: and how we connect to this energy,
24:13
SPEAKER_01: we are always influenced by Social structures by our personalities and
24:21
SPEAKER_01: the structures of our psyche and what happens to us and how we...
24:28
SPEAKER_01: I used to deal with the world and how we build a relationship with the world.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Just...
24:41
SPEAKER_01: A typical example, let's imagine, a man on the street helps an elderly woman.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Does he expect something from her for helping her?
24:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: Does it mean that he is selfless in this act of kindness?
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Maybe he is absolving himself for something by doing this.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: Maybe he is like...
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Doing this with the intent that the more people act like this, then the better world will be.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: And I want to live in the world where people act like this.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: Is it selfless?
25:27
SPEAKER_01: No, it's totally selfish.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm acting this way because I want something from this world,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: not from a particular person I'm directing my kindness towards,
25:39
SPEAKER_01: but from the world itself.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like this.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: I like this distinction that not necessarily selfless,
25:49
SPEAKER_02: but the selfishness is not to get someone towards who you extend kindness.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: The selfishness is in maybe some beliefs around the world or yes,
26:01
SPEAKER_02: like, you know, I want more people to be like that.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I
26:06
SPEAKER_02: like that.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: Because I was also kind of feeling, maybe it needs to be selfless.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: And I was trying to understand, to unpack that experience that I had.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think
26:32
SPEAKER_01: it must be admitted that in the majority of cases,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: I think in In the current structure of the world,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: connecting to kindness does require certain
27:01
SPEAKER_01: attitude of selflessness too.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: Just again talking about
27:11
SPEAKER_01: specific examples that
27:17
SPEAKER_01: came to my mind
27:20
SPEAKER_01: when we just started talking about kindness.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's also an example of the story from the social media.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: The story is that the person from LinkedIn, I think Yulia, you might know him too as well.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember exactly his name, but he's an artist from UK.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: And he lives in a rural environment.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: And so from time to time he shares the stories.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: For example, when he finds a mouse in his house.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: So instead of killing it or just...
28:09
SPEAKER_01: Throwing it away,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: he takes the mouse and gets it into the car and drives it to somewhere other place
28:17
SPEAKER_01: where he thinks it will be able to find the food
28:22
SPEAKER_01: and we will be still like we'll have shelter
28:25
SPEAKER_01: but like I'm sorry little guy I can't coexist with you because it will be bad
28:30
SPEAKER_01: for my health but like I'm kind so like and I want the world to be kind so
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but imagine if that little mouse has a bunch of babies waiting in the area
28:43
SPEAKER_00: where this mouse lives,
28:45
SPEAKER_00: and he's now driven this mouse all the way out of the countryside,
28:50
SPEAKER_00: and the little babies are
28:51
SPEAKER_01: waiting for food.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but if these little babies are in his house too,
28:58
SPEAKER_01: he will find these babies and will take them to the same place.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: She's like, the point is there are certain restrictions of the world we live in.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: He can't coexist with the mice,
29:13
SPEAKER_01: but he's trying to treat them with as much selflessness as
29:22
SPEAKER_01: the circumstances allow him.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: And in this example,
29:26
SPEAKER_02: I can also see how somehow when you have this encounter,
29:35
SPEAKER_02: You take an active posture somehow, right?
29:41
SPEAKER_02: So kindness is not just simply, okay, just go away.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna throw you out.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: But it's
29:52
SPEAKER_02: making an effort and creating space in yourself to do something,
29:59
SPEAKER_02: to extend this act of kindness.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: For me, it's something that...
30:13
SPEAKER_02: If there is,
30:13
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
30:15
SPEAKER_02: a cloud of energy,
30:17
SPEAKER_02: so
30:20
SPEAKER_02: that kindness would be extended like a hand outside of the cloud.
30:26
SPEAKER_02: It'd be like something extra.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: Not necessarily physically, but in terms of...
30:35
SPEAKER_00: Intention maybe or feeling or.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, but so the act of kindness is it's actually not singular in this case
30:46
SPEAKER_00: because he's not killing the mouse.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, in that way, we could say that there is an aspect of kindness in there.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: But again, he's acting out of his own interests and needs.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: And affecting this mouse's existence and geography and potentially food sources
31:09
SPEAKER_00: and family members that are waiting for the mouse because of his own selfish needs.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: So like in terms of from the perspective of the mouse, I'm not sure.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes, maybe the mouse can be happy and grateful that he wasn't killed.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: But like,
31:23
SPEAKER_00: is the mouse happy and feeling grateful for the fact that he's been driven out to
31:27
SPEAKER_00: the countryside?
31:28
SPEAKER_02: Is the mouse feeling grateful, period?
31:30
SPEAKER_02: Because that is a big question that we could be unpacking for a long time.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: But at least his intent at least to take the mouse to the place
31:40
SPEAKER_01: where he can still provide itself with the food and circulation.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: But I actually,
31:50
SPEAKER_02: in my system and how it feels to me,
31:54
SPEAKER_02: when there is this kind of interaction of him and the mouse,
31:59
SPEAKER_02: the mouse gets it energetically.
32:02
SPEAKER_02: And not necessarily through human means or feeling grateful or feeling angry.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: But the mouse is present to this energetic exchange that's happening and to this core exchange.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: Energy of this energetic exchange and even like let's us you know okay maybe
32:25
SPEAKER_02: the mouse is not very happy with the new area maybe the mouse is happy we don't know
32:30
SPEAKER_02: the details but
32:34
SPEAKER_02: if I were to assume
32:39
SPEAKER_02: the mouse will carry this signature of exchange
32:44
SPEAKER_02: and also The mouse may kind of through morphic field even create this resonance
32:54
SPEAKER_02: for this guy and other mice or other animals possibly.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: Do you remember when you said that we cannot possibly speak for the animals
33:07
SPEAKER_00: from our human perspective?
33:10
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: She did state it in her explanation.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: She did say that we can't say whether the mouse feels grateful at all and what it feels.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: But she's assuming that it carries the energetic imprint.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: We don't know how the mouse perceives it, what it makes for its perception of the world.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: But I think I share this assumption, the energetic imprint should be there, I think.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: But from my perspective,
33:55
SPEAKER_01: it doesn't mean that everyone,
34:00
SPEAKER_01: acting with kindness means that everyone should act in the similar situations in
34:05
SPEAKER_01: the same way how this man does.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: I think it's more exactly about connecting to the energy and from this connection
34:18
SPEAKER_01: to this energy of love, openness, tenderness, welcoming.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: And we also mentioned another word in the warm-up soup, the attunement.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: So we get attuned to what is the most...
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Appropriate way for everyone involved to act here, what it would be.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: And in some cases, it might be to take the mouse to another place.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: In other cases, it might be just okay.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: I just don't touch you.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Go your way.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: There is something else now that I'm trying to Reconstruct that experience
35:10
SPEAKER_02: at what made it so striking for me.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: And that there is non-attachment there also that I could feel.
35:21
SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, you have this offer that you extend.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: And for those who are watching us on YouTube,
35:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm showing two open hands touching each other, the palms.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: As opposed, like anything else.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: Well, here, here, take this.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: Here, take this.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: Like the other party doesn't know what's going to happen next.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: Like what's in this hand exactly.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: And whether it was motioning like a closed,
36:00
SPEAKER_00: just to describe what you were showing for listeners.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: The open palms versus the, what's the other move?
36:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like a closed palm if something is there and that you are extending something
36:13
SPEAKER_02: in your kind of a fist, right?
36:16
SPEAKER_02: So this to me,
36:18
SPEAKER_02: I think was the difference,
36:22
SPEAKER_02: a very pronounced energy of this openness and non-attachment.
36:33
SPEAKER_02: So if we go back to the question of Selfless or selfish,
36:40
SPEAKER_02: there was no selfishness towards me and extending the offer.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: Again, actually selfishness is not something bad, but I think with the act of kindness,
37:01
SPEAKER_02: Selfless is perceived very differently.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: And it can be selfish in other ways, whatever.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: I want to save the world or I want to be this and that.
37:11
SPEAKER_02: Or maybe it's absolutely selfless, but I don't know.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: I didn't ask how he felt.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it's
37:22
SPEAKER_02: really, there's non-attachment made it
37:30
SPEAKER_02: Very fluid and light somehow.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: It was just like something easy flowing.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: It was easy to take or not to take.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Can I ask you, Yul,
37:52
SPEAKER_00: if the aspect of the fact that this was the masculine Offering something
37:59
SPEAKER_00: in this kind of way to your feminine,
38:03
SPEAKER_00: was that an element that also heightened that experience for you?
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Possibly, possibly.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: Possibly, and maybe because there is a rich history that
38:24
SPEAKER_02: women carry.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: Usually related to
38:33
SPEAKER_02: that something may be wanted
38:37
SPEAKER_02: from them in return
38:38
SPEAKER_02: and not necessarily anything that has to do with sex or whatever,
38:46
SPEAKER_02: but just it's somehow
38:52
SPEAKER_02: even without any awareness I think
38:55
SPEAKER_02: the first reaction is let me be alert and careful what's going to happen and see
39:03
SPEAKER_02: whether I want to even get involved with this or not.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: And in this case was like, it was so, so easy.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: It didn't feel like I need to check anything.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: And do you think that some of the other elements that were present were the fact
39:22
SPEAKER_00: that you were in this very specific container?
39:24
SPEAKER_00: So there was already potentially a sense of trust there
39:29
SPEAKER_00: that would have been different than in the outside world?
39:35
SPEAKER_00: And there was already a level of intimacy because you're a very select, very select person.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: Group of people that have self-selected into a very specific experience.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: Would that already somehow automatically break down some of the walls
39:49
SPEAKER_00: that you usually might experience around feeling into this frequency of kindness
39:55
SPEAKER_00: and also being able to receive it more easily?
40:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure all of that has had an effect.
40:07
SPEAKER_02: The trust that we had as a group.
40:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but also it's interesting asking myself this question.
40:21
SPEAKER_02: This was such
40:26
SPEAKER_02: an obvious thing, not an obvious maybe, but I can figure out.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can offer this to her probably, you know.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: Will make her happy.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: So it's like something so simple, but somehow so difficult.
40:55
SPEAKER_02: Because
40:58
SPEAKER_02: usually when I'm offered something
41:04
SPEAKER_02: by most of the people,
41:05
SPEAKER_02: My first response would be, no, I'm not gonna.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Why?
41:14
SPEAKER_00: What kicks up?
41:19
SPEAKER_02: Well, no, let me correct myself.
41:21
SPEAKER_02: At least I'm taking time.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm taking time.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm letting myself go.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: Over it.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: And this was somehow maybe I'm actually even missing something like why this was
41:35
SPEAKER_02: such an interesting experience for me.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: But so you're saying that usually when someone is offering you something,
41:48
SPEAKER_00: there's first like a scanning tuning in mechanism that turns
41:52
SPEAKER_00: where you're considering what?
42:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm considering whether
42:07
SPEAKER_02: want it or not or what the cost would be of that.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: And if you want to owe this cost to this particular person?
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah,
42:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking whether I want to bring in something that is not mine,
42:35
SPEAKER_02: but I just came across today, which was really interesting insight, but maybe later.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: So actually, this makes a good segue into my next question or more like an invitation.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: And the invitation is maybe can you Think about instances where you decided not
43:04
SPEAKER_02: to extend an act of kindness or you decided not to receive something
43:11
SPEAKER_02: that looked like an act of kindness.
43:15
SPEAKER_02: And what was behind that?
43:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't have anything in my mind that would answer to this specific question,
44:02
SPEAKER_01: but
44:05
SPEAKER_01: the story that really occupies my mind...
44:15
SPEAKER_01: have something to do with that but it definitely has to do
44:18
SPEAKER_01: with like what you discussed previously
44:20
SPEAKER_01: about how this all this like whatever our own programs and
44:26
SPEAKER_01: the social mechanisms affects you like how we perceive like
44:32
SPEAKER_01: and how we relate like do I want to Accept it,
44:36
SPEAKER_01: will I owe you, what are the costs, etc.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: So it happened to me
44:49
SPEAKER_01: more than 20 years ago.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: It was one of my first times in the US.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: And it was the first time when I was driving a car in the US.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: And it was the first time in general when I was driving a car alone
45:05
SPEAKER_01: without my dad sitting next to me and telling me what to do.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: And so I was driving from my hotel to the office.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: It was a work trip.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: And I got a flat tire.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: And so I didn't have any mobile phone.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: So I was lost in some residential area for which I didn't have a map with
45:34
SPEAKER_01: the rental car with a flat tire.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: There's no one around.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't have any means to call anyone.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: And I have no idea what to do.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: And so I was looking bad,
45:51
SPEAKER_01: really, because it's a residential area and everyone was at work, I guess.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: There was no one.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden,
45:59
SPEAKER_01: just some elderly couple jogging, passing by, and I go, please, please help me.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: So I told them the story and they really helped me.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: And at this respect,
46:11
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any doubt of receiving their help because they were my only hope.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: So they helped me to call the rental company,
46:20
SPEAKER_01: they took me to the rental office to get the new car, etc.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: And of course,
46:26
SPEAKER_01: they gave me their number and said,
46:29
SPEAKER_01: you know, call us, come to visit us, we will be happy to have you, etc.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: And so for the rest of my trip in the U.S., well,
46:41
SPEAKER_01: not in that town,
46:43
SPEAKER_01: let's say,
46:43
SPEAKER_01: that area, I was really torn apart by the thoughts, like, what am I supposed to do?
46:52
SPEAKER_01: Should I call them?
46:53
SPEAKER_01: Should I make a visit?
46:57
SPEAKER_01: Will it be polite?
46:59
SPEAKER_01: Will I be imposing myself?
47:01
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe,
47:02
SPEAKER_01: on the contrary,
47:03
SPEAKER_01: they're expecting that I will, like,
47:07
SPEAKER_01: it will be the act of, like,
47:09
SPEAKER_01: education,
47:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:11
SPEAKER_01: to return the kindness and to make the visit, or maybe I should send them flowers.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: So I was sort of, for my whole...
47:24
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't decide what I'm supposed to do,
47:26
SPEAKER_01: what will be appropriate, what will be kind, what will be educated.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: In the end, I didn't do anything.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: And for all 20 years, I have been beating myself up.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: I didn't return the act of kindness.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: I didn't respond to it.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: Until all this conversation,
47:52
SPEAKER_01: Makes me think about how really this social dance and social structures
48:04
SPEAKER_01: seeded in us
48:05
SPEAKER_01: that it can't be just an act of kindness with no stranger attached.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: You must respond somehow.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, you are selfish, you're not grateful or whatever.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know whether those people really expected something from me or not.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: How they felt about not me calling them and not doing anything in return.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Just in case...
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Whatever twists of the universe they hear it, I'm really grateful.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: I have been grateful for your help for all these years.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: But it's really...
48:53
SPEAKER_02: Which state was it in, Ir?
48:55
SPEAKER_02: Tell us the location so they hear it, that they know.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: So they can self-identify.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: California?
49:04
SPEAKER_01: It was Palo Alto.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay, perfect.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, yes,
49:12
SPEAKER_01: so like,
49:15
SPEAKER_01: why can't we just do acts of kindness and receive acts of kindness and perceive
49:24
SPEAKER_01: a desk?
49:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, this is how things are supposed to be.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's also like,
49:31
SPEAKER_01: if I owe anything at all,
49:33
SPEAKER_01: then it's just too Expand these acts of kindness to the world,
49:39
SPEAKER_01: but not necessarily to this specific person.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: This brings something up for me.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: Where I'm going to bring up the thing that I came across today.
50:10
SPEAKER_02: But what you're saying is,
50:14
SPEAKER_02: maybe you can say reciprocity,
50:16
SPEAKER_02: it does not need to be,
50:19
SPEAKER_02: it does not have, but it actually doesn't need maybe better if it's not direct.
50:25
SPEAKER_02: I receive something from you and I feel obliged to give something, right?
50:30
SPEAKER_02: It's more like a dance where You know, you are touched by something.
50:36
SPEAKER_02: There is this Russian cartoon from the Soviet times of someone receiving a bouquet of flowers.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: Was it like a baby elephant?
50:50
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about the same cartoon.
50:53
SPEAKER_02: Who was it?
50:54
SPEAKER_02: I forget the animal who
50:56
SPEAKER_01: started it.
50:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember who started it.
50:59
SPEAKER_02: Then he, out of nowhere, he received this bouquet of flowers.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: And then through,
51:06
SPEAKER_02: actually not exactly through the own will of the animal,
51:12
SPEAKER_02: but something was happening.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: So this bouquet got passed over to the next one.
51:18
SPEAKER_02: And so it created this chain of events where,
51:21
SPEAKER_02: you know, it's like, it wasn't shown like the whole forest was...
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Experiencing kindness.
51:30
SPEAKER_02: But to me now, it feels this way.
51:33
SPEAKER_02: Like there was something expansive, like expanding.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just like paying it forward.
51:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:43
SPEAKER_02: And so
51:48
SPEAKER_02: for me, now that I've been thinking about it,
51:56
SPEAKER_02: I see that I'm receiving kindness every day from plants or trees for the beauty
52:06
SPEAKER_02: or seeing me or giving me
52:12
SPEAKER_02: whatever signals or birds that are
52:17
SPEAKER_02: singing for me.
52:20
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, so I would even...
52:28
SPEAKER_02: Expand this, the kindness.
52:31
SPEAKER_02: It's like, who can you be kind towards, human or non-human?
52:37
SPEAKER_02: It's maybe just about adding some kindness into this big pot
52:44
SPEAKER_02: where it creates some charge and maybe kindness starts to grow or spread.
52:55
SPEAKER_02: And I read something today that had me like, wow.
52:59
SPEAKER_02: And this was, I'm not going to tell the whole story, but it's an Inuit saying.
53:05
SPEAKER_02: And this really happened with someone who lived with Inuits,
53:09
SPEAKER_02: a Western guy who lived with them for a long time.
53:12
SPEAKER_02: And so...
53:14
SPEAKER_02: In response to someone when he wasn't able to hunt anything,
53:18
SPEAKER_02: in response to someone bringing him his meat,
53:24
SPEAKER_02: and the Western guy was trying to thank him, and he said that
53:36
SPEAKER_02: gifts make slaves.
53:38
SPEAKER_02: This is like an hour saying, Inuit saying.
53:46
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: So what he wanted to say, that it wasn't a gift?
53:59
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
54:00
SPEAKER_02: That he didn't want it to be a gift.
54:03
SPEAKER_02: He wanted it to just simply be his human expression.
54:11
SPEAKER_02: For them, it's kind of like, feels like an assault on the character.
54:16
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not doing it to give a gift for you, to you.
54:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm just doing it because this is the nature of things.
54:24
SPEAKER_02: Kind of like that.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: But so they will accept it if the motivation behind the giving is the right frequency?
54:33
SPEAKER_00: Is that what you're saying?
54:35
SPEAKER_00: Is that what was being transmitted in this example?
54:38
SPEAKER_02: I think it is about some kind of frequency and...
54:45
SPEAKER_02: Like when you really start thanking and see it as a gift,
54:51
SPEAKER_02: I guess what
54:55
SPEAKER_02: it brings up is that it's transactional in nature,
55:01
SPEAKER_02: which they don't, well, for them it's not in their culture.
55:07
SPEAKER_02: I mean, for them it's a lived experience that this is not transactional,
55:10
SPEAKER_02: so they don't want to Bring this in or take this in from outside
55:15
SPEAKER_00: the transactionality.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: I think that's what I was trying to touch and explain and like what I was trying
55:24
SPEAKER_00: to engage with at the beginning of our conversation that like for me for something
55:30
SPEAKER_00: to really truly be a kindness without strings attached it would have to be In a way,
55:38
SPEAKER_00: selfless.
55:39
SPEAKER_00: Even though I don't know if humans are really capable of that.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: But if we take the perspective of this
55:48
SPEAKER_00: is just the situation,
55:51
SPEAKER_00: so you need this, so therefore, and I have it, I'll give it to you.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a different word?
55:58
SPEAKER_00: It's a different frequency?
56:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: Because is kindness in its frequency...
56:10
SPEAKER_00: Free.
56:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, the frequency is the frequency.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but is it a frequency that is transmitted without also an aspect of it,
56:27
SPEAKER_00: of taking, like, or you owe me, you know?
56:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, can it exist without that?
56:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
56:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't have the answer.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm just engaging with this.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
56:39
SPEAKER_00: Because I think that kindness is sold to us as if it's not selfish, there isn't a take.
56:46
SPEAKER_00: But I think in practice, often, there is a take in different ways, on different levels.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: The expectation of a future take,
56:55
SPEAKER_00: expectation of like, you will give it back to me, you know, right?
56:58
SPEAKER_00: So, but then is it kindness?
57:02
SPEAKER_00: Or is it just something we're calling kindness, but it's not actually kindness?
57:05
SPEAKER_00: So like, is it an issue with the word?
57:08
SPEAKER_00: With what we're describing, with, you know, that's the question that's coming up for me.
57:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no,
57:17
SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with you because I also have been,
57:21
SPEAKER_01: I have been weakness to many stories like that and it is really very common
57:28
SPEAKER_01: for people to behave As if I'm giving it all to other people.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: But of course,
57:37
SPEAKER_01: this giving it all comes from this motivation that I hope to earn something
57:44
SPEAKER_01: in return.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: Mostly people are hoping to earn love this way.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: And then when they don't get this expected love,
57:53
SPEAKER_01: then it all turns to me like,
57:55
SPEAKER_01: you don't appreciate everything what I have done for you.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: Or I also have been witness to several stories when
58:06
SPEAKER_01: person has been educated
58:11
SPEAKER_01: that you must be kind to other people.
58:18
SPEAKER_01: So you must commit the acts of kindness.
58:25
SPEAKER_01: But when it's not really connected to this frequency of love and openness
58:33
SPEAKER_01: and welcoming and warmth,
58:38
SPEAKER_01: it's performed out of this, like, installed duty, like, I must do it.
58:45
SPEAKER_01: So in the end, it always...
58:50
SPEAKER_01: Gets twisted and because of the person,
58:55
SPEAKER_01: as in the case with not receiving love,
58:58
SPEAKER_01: also not receiving love,
59:01
SPEAKER_01: not getting some kind of expected response,
59:07
SPEAKER_01: even like this person might not be aware of what kind of response I'm expecting.
59:13
SPEAKER_01: So it all turns out into scandals and the accusations and it becomes so ugly.
59:23
SPEAKER_01: So in the first, you look as like, wow, what a kind person.
59:28
SPEAKER_01: You're like, this is just Mother Teresa.
59:32
SPEAKER_01: People like this don't exist in this world.
59:34
SPEAKER_01: And then it all gets upside down.
59:38
SPEAKER_01: Turns the other way, totally, like 180 degrees.
59:45
SPEAKER_02: And we're like, really?
59:46
SPEAKER_01: Is it the same person?
59:48
SPEAKER_01: The one that was so kind and was doing all these things so selflessly, apparently.
59:58
SPEAKER_01: Those things were not that selfless.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_02: How complicated, because...
1:00:07
SPEAKER_02: Like how many,
1:00:10
SPEAKER_02: I guess maybe what is there for me is that in our society,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_02: most of the people, sadly,
1:00:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:00:21
SPEAKER_02: for many people,
1:00:22
SPEAKER_02: not like for the lack of trying,
1:00:23
SPEAKER_02: but just because this is how life in the current society is,
1:00:30
SPEAKER_02: have to pretend and be not what they are and also pretend Around the values
1:00:38
SPEAKER_02: that are kind of like on the books.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, like what do you have?
1:00:43
SPEAKER_02: Kindness, love, selfishness.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_02: Now, you know, how about acting those out for us so we can tick all the boxes?
1:00:55
SPEAKER_02: It's like a, I guess it's a play that
1:01:00
SPEAKER_02: you kind of experience it as play so often in your life.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_02: That you then even can forget what real kindness feels like.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_02: What is that energy that maybe is inherent in the human fabric?
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: I just was thinking that in the end we tend
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: to picture people who
1:02:01
SPEAKER_01: Do selfless acts in favor of other people as
1:02:10
SPEAKER_01: something that is worth admiration.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_01: But in the end,
1:02:19
SPEAKER_01: I think
1:02:23
SPEAKER_01: real like The real connection to this energy,
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: to this frequency of kindness starts not with selfless acts,
1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: but with kindness towards oneself.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: And even,
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: like there is a classical Buddhist meditation,
1:02:52
SPEAKER_01: which is very famous nowadays because everyone is doing mindfulness,
1:02:59
SPEAKER_01: which is called Metta.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_01: And it is like the meditation of love and kindness.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_01: And so like they have this specific order in which like you...
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: Experience this energy and you direct it to different kinds of people,
1:03:16
SPEAKER_01: but first you direct it to yourself.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_01: So you start with yourself.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: Only when you nurture yourself with this frequency, you may be really kind to the other.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_02: Or there is another variation that I've come across that starts purposefully with like...
1:03:40
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, creatures or people that you know.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_02: And then through you experiencing and accessing kindness towards others,
1:03:52
SPEAKER_02: then it also becomes easier to see how you might be able to be kind to yourself.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_02: Because it's also sometimes the hardest, right?
1:04:06
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know how, like, how...
1:04:10
SPEAKER_02: Pure that kindness is without kindness.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no,
1:04:13
SPEAKER_01: but it's true that it's an exercise just to get the feeling,
1:04:18
SPEAKER_01: okay, yeah, you know how to direct it to the other.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_01: No, just imagine that it's directed to yourself.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_01: But in the end, I think it should be, the beginning should be oneself.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise,
1:04:49
SPEAKER_01: if you're not nurtured with this frequency,
1:04:57
SPEAKER_01: it always will be the act with some expectation of getting something back
1:05:03
SPEAKER_01: from this person or just as the reward from the universe that I have been kind,
1:05:09
SPEAKER_01: I have been good.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_01: Now just give me benefits.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_01: I have deserved it.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_00: I think you're pointing to another aspect of this,
1:05:20
SPEAKER_00: which is how embodied are some of these frequencies that are available in general
1:05:25
SPEAKER_00: between us?
1:05:26
SPEAKER_00: How embodied is that frequency?
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: But that's already sort of more of an advanced move or an advanced level of development.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_00: I think it's not a given that we're all able to embody the frequency of kindness or
1:05:45
SPEAKER_00: that we're all able to embody the frequency of trust,
1:05:48
SPEAKER_00: but we sometimes can engage with those frequencies without having it embodied.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: So it's more complicated than that.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_00: You may not be able to embody kindness within you as yourself,
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: Your first move,
1:06:07
SPEAKER_00: you may have to actually reference it towards someone else first in order
1:06:12
SPEAKER_00: to start building that internal kind of like foundation of maybe the neural wires,
1:06:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:06:19
SPEAKER_00: are restructuring that would allow you to actually bring it in to the inside.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_00: Depending on your upbringing, of course, in your life experiences.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think for me,
1:06:39
SPEAKER_02: It was
1:06:41
SPEAKER_02: accessing kindness of the modern human world,
1:06:49
SPEAKER_02: like of trees and birds and flowers that
1:06:58
SPEAKER_02: created a bridge and some capacity in me
1:07:02
SPEAKER_02: to experience kindness
1:07:08
SPEAKER_02: To myself, at least, I think for me, it's also it's easier cure, especially as a woman.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_02: I think you're raised with this idea that kindness and taking care
1:07:21
SPEAKER_02: of others is just what you're about.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_00: Like it's an outwardly expression of that frequency.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_00: It's for others, not for yourself.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:07:32
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_02: And so being able to figure out a sense into what it's like to extend kindness
1:07:43
SPEAKER_02: to myself, it didn't come from humans.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:07:51
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that, Yulia.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_00: I think maybe one of my pivotal stories around this topic,
1:07:59
SPEAKER_00: and it is quite layered and complicated,
1:08:01
SPEAKER_00: so I actually don't know which frequency started what,
1:08:04
SPEAKER_00: what was the exact movement, in and out, I don't know.
1:08:08
SPEAKER_00: But
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: one of the major barriers to self-kindness for me was my experience with Teddy, with my dog.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_00: The horror of what was happening with him when he was super sick
1:08:26
SPEAKER_00: and how difficult it was for me and how taxing
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: and how much burden I was feeling around having to extend myself towards him
1:08:37
SPEAKER_00: and figure out ways to extend myself to help him.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_00: But eventually...
1:08:45
SPEAKER_00: I shared with you, I think, in one of the episodes, right?
1:08:48
SPEAKER_00: Or just maybe in a conversation.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: Eventually, I broke through the burden.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: And I broke through it and I dropped into the privilege
1:09:04
SPEAKER_00: of me being there
1:09:06
SPEAKER_00: in his most difficult times.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_00: That I had the privilege to be there for this amazing and incredible being.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: And when I broke through the burden of it,
1:09:18
SPEAKER_00: which is like a family lineage thing,
1:09:21
SPEAKER_00: all the women in my family have been loving and kind,
1:09:26
SPEAKER_00: but it's always come with a lot of burden around it,
1:09:30
SPEAKER_00: which makes it very hard to be able to receive...
1:09:35
SPEAKER_00: Love through that burden,
1:09:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:09:37
SPEAKER_00: to really like it's very hard to get access to those clean frequencies that you need
1:09:44
SPEAKER_00: to be able to engage with.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_00: It's always so muddy.
1:09:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:09:48
SPEAKER_00: So when I broke through this like family lineage of burden into like the privilege
1:09:53
SPEAKER_00: of it, it became really an act of love and and and.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_00: More kindness,
1:10:06
SPEAKER_00: I think in some of the ways in which we're engaging with that word
1:10:10
SPEAKER_00: or what it represents,
1:10:12
SPEAKER_00: like became more accessible towards him,
1:10:14
SPEAKER_00: but also towards me because of that experience.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_00: Because when I was able to engage with that frequency without the burden in the way,
1:10:24
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my God, wait, this, this is now allowing me to give it freely.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_00: And want to,
1:10:34
SPEAKER_00: and if he was to survive another year or two years,
1:10:38
SPEAKER_00: even though it was so hard on all of us,
1:10:41
SPEAKER_00: I would have been happy to be there for him.
1:10:45
SPEAKER_00: And so in a way,
1:10:46
SPEAKER_00: I
1:10:49
SPEAKER_00: was like, oh my god, wait, this is what I would like to experience from people.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_00: This is the thing that I've been also wanting to experience and I haven't been able
1:11:00
SPEAKER_00: to because of all these things in the way.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_00: So this is an example of like not yet embodying it internally, right?
1:11:08
SPEAKER_00: So the opposite of what you're saying,
1:11:10
SPEAKER_00: you know, like it wasn't like an internal thing I owned yet.
1:11:13
SPEAKER_00: So it was an external experience,
1:11:16
SPEAKER_00: like outside in,
1:11:18
SPEAKER_00: but also through an animal and not even a human, like what you're describing, Yul.
1:11:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because humans,
1:11:30
SPEAKER_02: as we said,
1:11:32
SPEAKER_02: as you said,
1:11:34
SPEAKER_02: through the social fabric and a lot of eco-dependent stuff,
1:11:41
SPEAKER_02: they make this complicated,
1:11:46
SPEAKER_02: probably all feelings, be it kindness or love, and just maybe in this form where
1:11:59
SPEAKER_02: We could really learn to embody it, to sense into it.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_02: Maybe that form is more accessible in the modern human world
1:12:13
SPEAKER_02: for all of those, including love.
1:12:17
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_02: I think to me it sounds like for me it's true.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_00: Also what was coming up for me earlier was when we were like unpacking all
1:12:39
SPEAKER_00: of these stories and different aspects of it was when we're talking
1:12:43
SPEAKER_00: about selflessness, I was trying to connect with like what would truly be selfless?
1:12:49
SPEAKER_00: Like what could truly be selfless?
1:12:51
SPEAKER_00: And then what came to me was an instinctual act could be actually selfless
1:12:58
SPEAKER_00: because you're If someone was hit by a car or a mother that runs into a building
1:13:07
SPEAKER_00: to save her child,
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: that's instinct taking over and I don't know to what degree the frequency
1:13:18
SPEAKER_00: of kindness is in there,
1:13:19
SPEAKER_00: but at least that could be, I think, a clean example of what selflessness could be.
1:13:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, except for if you're running into the building to save a family member,
1:13:35
SPEAKER_00: you're actually also in a way saving yourself
1:13:37
SPEAKER_00: because your family member is also you.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_00: So let's say a stranger runs into the building by instinct to save someone else.
1:13:46
SPEAKER_00: Also,
1:13:47
SPEAKER_00: we could argue that could be a bit selfish because like this is us paying it forward
1:13:52
SPEAKER_00: for humanity.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_00: Like what's the right thing to do?
1:13:55
SPEAKER_00: Or like how do you know?
1:13:59
SPEAKER_01: How do you know what psychological programs inside of him really is driving him
1:14:05
SPEAKER_01: to be a hero and to save other people and to run into the
1:14:14
SPEAKER_01: buildings in the fire?
1:14:17
SPEAKER_01: Maybe he has this feudal wish.
1:14:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
1:14:22
SPEAKER_02: That goes deep.
1:14:24
SPEAKER_02: That goes into mystery territory.
1:14:27
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:14:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll just finish before we recap with something like the story.
1:14:39
SPEAKER_02: My story as of lately is I've been thinking about kindness and acts
1:14:43
SPEAKER_02: of kindness is realizing that I'm also not usually not exchanging acts of kindness.
1:14:51
SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking about some moments where I could have and what is stopping me?
1:14:58
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's just like that being so complicated.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_02: So what next?
1:15:05
SPEAKER_02: Now I do this,
1:15:07
SPEAKER_02: especially I'm,
1:15:11
SPEAKER_02: I
1:15:14
SPEAKER_02: live,
1:15:16
SPEAKER_02: it's not in my native country where I live and
1:15:23
SPEAKER_02: like,
1:15:23
SPEAKER_02: what are the, how are they going to take it?
1:15:26
SPEAKER_02: Is it, will it resonate?
1:15:28
SPEAKER_02: Will it just Create some,
1:15:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:15:33
SPEAKER_02: misunderstanding or an obligation for them to do something in return for me.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_02: But also actually not necessarily even in Germany or Berlin.
1:15:45
SPEAKER_02: There is also something almost like tiredness.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_02: Almost me preventing this expenditure of energy for,
1:15:57
SPEAKER_02: well, first I'm going to Be kind to someone.
1:16:03
SPEAKER_02: And by thinking probably it's not already,
1:16:05
SPEAKER_02: you know, really the kindness that people would like to receive.
1:16:11
SPEAKER_02: And then imagining what kind of exchanges would follow, how it would complicate things.
1:16:17
SPEAKER_02: And
1:16:21
SPEAKER_02: yeah, so it's, I really, I would really, really love to
1:16:34
SPEAKER_02: To have an opportunity to somehow get into this act of kindness without overthinking
1:16:43
SPEAKER_02: and just allowing myself to go there.
1:16:49
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:16:52
SPEAKER_02: Maybe there is something kind or kindness that people experience from it.
1:16:58
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_00: I think this whole reciprocal nature or this aspect to it,
1:17:04
SPEAKER_00: you know, that's what really muddies it up.
1:17:07
SPEAKER_00: So I've actually been practicing because some of the courses I've been in, right?
1:17:13
SPEAKER_00: I've been practicing recently like catching myself in the moment where I want
1:17:20
SPEAKER_00: to reciprocate and actually practicing not.
1:17:25
SPEAKER_00: And it's very edgy and very hard.
1:17:28
SPEAKER_00: Because it makes me feel like I'm being selfish.
1:17:30
SPEAKER_00: It makes me feel like I'm taking something for granted.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_00: But in a way, and all of those yucky, like sticky feelings are there.
1:17:38
SPEAKER_00: But also what I do feel when I do this exercise is actually a sense of freedom.
1:17:45
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm disconnecting from this becoming a...
1:17:51
SPEAKER_00: Mercantile exchange.
1:17:53
SPEAKER_00: So that means I'm freeing up the energy to actually receive this more fully
1:17:57
SPEAKER_00: because I don't have to worry that I have to return it in some way or I have
1:18:01
SPEAKER_00: to show up for you like this is for me,
1:18:03
SPEAKER_00: which then also in a way becomes a bit of a selfish act, right?
1:18:08
SPEAKER_00: So this whole aspect of selfishness,
1:18:09
SPEAKER_00: I think, is something that messes with so many aspects of things.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_00: But is it selfish?
1:18:16
SPEAKER_00: I feel like sometimes when someone receives something from me
1:18:19
SPEAKER_00: and I don't feel like they're engaging with their worries about what does this mean,
1:18:25
SPEAKER_00: what am I going to have to give back to,
1:18:26
SPEAKER_00: and they just truly receive it, it actually frees me up as the giver.
1:18:31
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah.
1:18:33
SPEAKER_00: And then when I am able to truly receive and disconnect from worrying about you,
1:18:39
SPEAKER_00: because you're an adult,
1:18:42
SPEAKER_00: you're choosing to give me something,
1:18:45
SPEAKER_00: And your internal landscape around it is not really my problem.
1:18:49
SPEAKER_00: That's like something for you to engage with.
1:18:52
SPEAKER_00: But if I allow myself not to engage with your story and just to engage with like,
1:18:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to allow myself to really receive this, I feel free.
1:19:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think that energetically the giver might also feel free whether they're aware
1:19:06
SPEAKER_00: of it or not.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what you were describing in your story, Yulia,
1:19:09
SPEAKER_00: at the beginning with him giving you the bed and like the fact
1:19:12
SPEAKER_00: that you didn't freeze, right?
1:19:15
SPEAKER_00: Which could be a lot of these reasons we've been talking about.
1:19:18
SPEAKER_00: Like why do we freeze when we're given something?
1:19:21
SPEAKER_00: But you didn't.
1:19:22
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't even about him.
1:19:23
SPEAKER_00: We don't know if he did it out of kindness.
1:19:25
SPEAKER_00: We have no idea what his internal landscape is.
1:19:27
SPEAKER_00: But what you really were describing is you giving yourself permission to receive.
1:19:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:19:35
SPEAKER_00: All of us is an act of kindness towards yourself in a way.
1:19:40
SPEAKER_00: In the receiving.
1:19:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:19:42
SPEAKER_02: Interestingly, when I said, oh, yes, I love that.
1:19:47
SPEAKER_02: I then was like, wow.
1:19:49
SPEAKER_02: Now, because...
1:19:51
SPEAKER_02: It was so precious to me because I really, really wanted to sleep outside.
1:19:57
SPEAKER_02: I was like, how do I thank him?
1:20:00
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
1:20:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_02: Thank you again.
1:20:03
SPEAKER_02: And then it was like,
1:20:05
SPEAKER_02: it just,
1:20:06
SPEAKER_02: this excessive thinking, it just feels,
1:20:15
SPEAKER_02: feels like it's, it closes something up.
1:20:19
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:20:21
SPEAKER_02: So if only there was some kind of agreement,
1:20:29
SPEAKER_02: right,
1:20:30
SPEAKER_02: that this is,
1:20:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:20:33
SPEAKER_02: if I give,
1:20:34
SPEAKER_02: and it probably would be a local agreement between a group of people or partners
1:20:40
SPEAKER_02: that if I give, then I just give without expecting even a thank you.
1:20:48
SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't that be cool?
1:20:52
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just realizing that this incoherent rambling
1:20:58
SPEAKER_02: about why I'm not extending acts of kindness,
1:21:03
SPEAKER_02: I think it goes to this long lengthy experience of being in a helping profession
1:21:11
SPEAKER_02: and burning out a couple of times.
1:21:14
SPEAKER_02: So I almost Feel aversion sometimes of extending.
1:21:20
SPEAKER_02: And I also have experiences where me overextending and overextending
1:21:25
SPEAKER_02: and overextending created this,
1:21:27
SPEAKER_02: like, disbalance that it was people just... You know, it's too much.
1:21:34
SPEAKER_02: So I guess now I need to calibrate back into it.
1:21:43
SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't it be cool if, like, when...
1:21:46
SPEAKER_00: If...
1:21:47
SPEAKER_00: We were able to come to the table and say,
1:21:51
SPEAKER_00: like straight up, say, hey,
1:21:54
SPEAKER_00: I care about you and I know this would help you and I'm going to do this for you
1:22:01
SPEAKER_00: because I want to help you.
1:22:02
SPEAKER_00: But also at some point,
1:22:04
SPEAKER_00: I would love it if you can also show up for me, like at some point in the future.
1:22:12
SPEAKER_00: Or I'm going to help you and I expect absolutely nothing in return.
1:22:16
SPEAKER_00: I legitimately am coming from a place where there is nothing that I need from you.
1:22:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm giving this freely.
1:22:23
SPEAKER_00: You don't even have to thank me.
1:22:25
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to worry about it.
1:22:26
SPEAKER_00: This is not an exchange.
1:22:31
SPEAKER_00: It would also normalize the exchanges where it is an exchange.
1:22:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, it's going to really take a lot from me right now to show up for you.
1:22:40
SPEAKER_00: And if you could pay it forward sometime down the line, that would be really cool.
1:22:48
SPEAKER_00: Or help me out.
1:22:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm helping you now because I can,
1:22:53
SPEAKER_00: but it would be lovely if you could also help me out at some point in the future
1:22:57
SPEAKER_00: if you can.
1:23:00
SPEAKER_00: Just be more transparent about it.
1:23:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree about being transparent.
1:23:07
SPEAKER_02: Because transparent, just tell me.
1:23:11
SPEAKER_02: Is it you doing it because you're expecting something in return?
1:23:14
SPEAKER_02: Because you want something?
1:23:18
SPEAKER_02: Tell me.
1:23:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I want to earn points in this relationship.
1:23:22
SPEAKER_00: I want to earn points.
1:23:24
SPEAKER_00: And I can't do this for you.
1:23:26
SPEAKER_00: It's not that difficult.
1:23:28
SPEAKER_00: And I know that it'll earn me points.
1:23:30
SPEAKER_00: Are you okay with that?
1:23:31
SPEAKER_00: Are you okay with me earning some points by doing this for you?
1:23:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:23:41
SPEAKER_01: To get to this transparency, we need first to surpass the first level that we're not aware yet.
1:23:53
SPEAKER_01: I always bring it up and it's awareness.
1:23:56
SPEAKER_01: Because to be transparent about my intentions, first I need to be aware of my intentions.
1:24:03
SPEAKER_00: And the majority of people have no idea why they're doing what they're doing.
1:24:09
SPEAKER_00: But we don't even know what words mean.
1:24:12
SPEAKER_00: We're using words to describe, like, look,
1:24:15
SPEAKER_00: we unpacked how many things are actually necessary to come together for it
1:24:20
SPEAKER_00: to be kindness and also for whom.
1:24:24
SPEAKER_00: Because every one of us might have a different configuration of what's actually kindness, right?
1:24:29
SPEAKER_00: What are the elements that make up kindness?
1:24:32
SPEAKER_00: How does it have to feel?
1:24:33
SPEAKER_00: How does it have to be given?
1:24:34
SPEAKER_00: Are you in the receiver role or the giver role?
1:24:36
SPEAKER_00: Because that might change as well.
1:24:39
SPEAKER_00: Efficiency has literally put us in a position where we no longer know what
1:24:47
SPEAKER_00: the hell we're talking about.
1:24:51
SPEAKER_02: Everyone is talking about something of their own.
1:24:55
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:24:56
SPEAKER_02: And even that, I think they're maybe mostly not aware of, including myself.
1:25:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm, you know.
1:25:02
SPEAKER_00: But expecting, expecting that what I say by this, what I mean by this is what you mean too.
1:25:09
SPEAKER_00: Like we are, we're on the same conversation, right?
1:25:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, kindness and love, right?
1:25:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:25:16
SPEAKER_00: They rule, right?
1:25:18
SPEAKER_00: Of course, we're kind and loving people.
1:25:22
SPEAKER_00: Selfishness is bad, is it?
1:25:26
SPEAKER_00: What if selfishness is the best thing you can do?
1:25:29
SPEAKER_00: Like if I know you're selfish, I know that whatever you do is for your own benefit.
1:25:36
SPEAKER_00: Great.
1:25:37
SPEAKER_00: Then I know how to interact with you.
1:25:39
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's freedom in that.
1:25:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:25:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:25:48
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:25:48
SPEAKER_02: This has been wonderful.
1:25:51
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for engaging with kindness.
1:25:55
SPEAKER_02: And I just want to wrap things up.
1:25:59
SPEAKER_02: And if there is anything now, anything else that wants to be said that comes to mind,
1:26:08
SPEAKER_02: please do.
1:26:09
SPEAKER_02: Or
1:26:11
SPEAKER_02: maybe there is a recap or there is something in your heart now that you want to...
1:26:19
SPEAKER_01: I have a question to you both.
1:26:22
SPEAKER_01: I wonder...
1:26:24
SPEAKER_01: How much of this frequency of kindness did you feel in this conversation?
1:26:36
SPEAKER_00: I actually felt quite a lot of it and especially when I was feeling it,
1:26:41
SPEAKER_00: I was paying attention to it and I was even like curious about it and I felt a lot
1:26:45
SPEAKER_00: of it today specifically towards Yulia.
1:26:49
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
1:26:50
SPEAKER_02: Because I felt like
1:26:51
SPEAKER_00: this was a tender and important topic for her.
1:26:55
SPEAKER_00: And I actually saw myself shift energetically out of like,
1:27:00
SPEAKER_00: really, I didn't care about what I had to say about my stories.
1:27:03
SPEAKER_00: I actually really wanted to make sure that you,
1:27:07
SPEAKER_00: Yul, were able to touch what you needed to touch with this topic.
1:27:12
SPEAKER_00: And I actually was going to ask you,
1:27:13
SPEAKER_00: did we accomplish what you needed,
1:27:17
SPEAKER_00: like what you wanted to touch and what you wanted to interact with?
1:27:21
SPEAKER_00: Were we able to provide the holding space for you?
1:27:26
SPEAKER_00: Because I know usually in our facilitator role,
1:27:29
SPEAKER_00: we end up taking a very tender topic to us,
1:27:33
SPEAKER_00: but also kind of a little bit outsourcing it to You know,
1:27:37
SPEAKER_00: the other two participants to a large degree.
1:27:40
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, that's what I was feeling towards you.
1:27:42
SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure you like you're you're walking away with what you wanted to walk away with.
1:27:50
SPEAKER_01: But first of all, no strings attached.
1:27:54
SPEAKER_00: No, really, no strings attached.
1:27:56
SPEAKER_00: This is really just this my care for you.
1:28:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to say thank you in the spirit of this conversation,
1:28:05
SPEAKER_02: but I really Carried in my heart, you getting to this frequency.
1:28:13
SPEAKER_02: I did inhabit that experience I was describing,
1:28:17
SPEAKER_02: and I also inhabited some experiences that were not happening for me,
1:28:23
SPEAKER_02: so I was wondering why.
1:28:25
SPEAKER_02: So I find I engaged with kindness in some
1:28:37
SPEAKER_02: Meaningful ways, I would say.
1:28:41
SPEAKER_02: Irene, you?
1:28:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, the reason why I asked,
1:28:45
SPEAKER_01: because to me,
1:28:47
SPEAKER_01: the whole conversation had a very different feel to it,
1:28:54
SPEAKER_01: different from our other conversations.
1:28:57
SPEAKER_01: It had more tranquility, more tenderness, and...
1:29:08
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, like slow pacing.
1:29:13
SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking, so maybe it's because there was this energy in the room.
1:29:21
SPEAKER_01: And so it made it feel different.
1:29:25
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for noticing that and verbalizing that and speaking to it.
1:29:30
SPEAKER_00: I actually really feel what you're describing.
1:29:34
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
1:29:35
SPEAKER_00: I think we really allowed...
1:29:37
SPEAKER_00: The frequency of kindness to be part of the fabric of this conversation today.
1:29:44
SPEAKER_00: Maybe kindness paid us a visit, right?
1:29:47
SPEAKER_00: Kindness paid us a visit.
1:29:50
SPEAKER_00: And we touched it.
1:29:53
SPEAKER_00: And it touched us.
1:29:56
SPEAKER_00: I feel internally touched.
1:29:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I also feel touched.
1:30:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so how do we finish?
1:30:09
SPEAKER_02: Anything else that wants to be said?
1:30:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm just glad that we get a chance to ask these questions,
1:30:22
SPEAKER_00: interact with resistance,
1:30:24
SPEAKER_00: interact with unpacking such simple words, concepts, and really
1:30:35
SPEAKER_00: Dig in there and touch what are the different frequencies,
1:30:38
SPEAKER_00: what are the different aspects of these things,
1:30:41
SPEAKER_00: these things that are so easily taken for granted.
1:30:47
SPEAKER_00: I actually don't remember the last time I broke down the word kindness with another human.
1:30:55
SPEAKER_00: I used to have these philosophical discussions when I was younger, like when I was in college.
1:31:00
SPEAKER_00: I had some friends that were very much into philosophy, so we would break things down.
1:31:05
SPEAKER_00: But I don't know that we broke down these kinds of concepts,
1:31:08
SPEAKER_00: like what is kindness, what is love?
1:31:14
SPEAKER_00: So this just, I think this is what leads down the road to awareness, as Irina always reminds us.
1:31:25
SPEAKER_00: Cause if you're not aware, then you have no choice in the matter.
1:31:30
SPEAKER_00: And also really no sense of yourself.
1:31:37
SPEAKER_00: I think this helps me to have more of a sense of myself,
1:31:40
SPEAKER_00: even though we don't really end with an answer and we don't like come out with
1:31:44
SPEAKER_00: a clean I don't even think it's possible to resolve it.
1:31:49
SPEAKER_00: It is quite complicated,
1:31:50
SPEAKER_00: but it helps me to touch more of myself, like bring more of myself online.
1:31:57
SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate it.
1:31:58
SPEAKER_01: That's what I wanted to say.
1:32:07
SPEAKER_01: I think there is one question that for me is...
1:32:14
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say it's left unanswered because it was not asked,
1:32:18
SPEAKER_01: but it's still worth exploring and we didn't touch on it.
1:32:25
SPEAKER_01: It's not that we didn't touch on it at all,
1:32:32
SPEAKER_01: but I think there is much more to it than what has been already said.
1:32:40
SPEAKER_01: And it's the reason why
1:32:46
SPEAKER_01: The idea of kindness creates so much resistance in us.
1:32:55
SPEAKER_01: I think there are things there that are
1:33:05
SPEAKER_01: still not uncovered.
1:33:09
SPEAKER_01: They are still uncovered.
1:33:10
SPEAKER_01: They are worth exploring.
1:33:17
SPEAKER_01: I think for myself,
1:33:23
SPEAKER_01: before even
1:33:26
SPEAKER_01: trying to engage with any intention of
1:33:33
SPEAKER_01: committing more acts of kindness,
1:33:35
SPEAKER_01: I think I need to just learn to
1:33:41
SPEAKER_01: engage more simply with this frequency,
1:33:44
SPEAKER_01: with the energy.
1:33:47
SPEAKER_01: And so I would be able to be more kind to myself.
1:33:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's freaking lovely and wonderful.
1:33:56
SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
1:33:58
SPEAKER_00: I think my hunch for me is that resistance comes... For me,
1:34:03
SPEAKER_00: it comes up whenever a word has either been usurped or is adjacent to or has...
1:34:12
SPEAKER_00: Some religious context connotations or like religion has taken the word and used it
1:34:17
SPEAKER_00: for a long time.
1:34:19
SPEAKER_00: And so it's become doctrine and it's become prescription for who you're supposed
1:34:24
SPEAKER_00: to be as a human.
1:34:25
SPEAKER_00: Whenever a word energetically comes or is adjacent to that, I automatically have resistance.
1:34:32
SPEAKER_00: And kindness, I think, does have some...
1:34:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, those flavors.
1:34:41
SPEAKER_00: Like if we were to interact with the word care, I would not have resistance come up.
1:34:47
SPEAKER_00: I have an easier way to interact with the word care than kindness because
1:34:53
SPEAKER_00: of this altruistic religious connotation that kindness has taken on over the years.
1:34:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the epidemiology is, like where this word comes from originally.
1:35:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but I'll look it up.
1:35:05
SPEAKER_02: I know I looked it up.
1:35:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah?
1:35:07
SPEAKER_00: And?
1:35:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:35:08
SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to bring it up.
1:35:10
SPEAKER_02: Is it religious?
1:35:12
SPEAKER_02: No, it's not religious.
1:35:13
SPEAKER_02: Actually, it's first originated from kin.
1:35:19
SPEAKER_02: Which is like family or clan?
1:35:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it has a familiar connotation, clan.
1:35:24
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like being that with people of your family and clan.
1:35:30
SPEAKER_02: And then the meaning shifted to being of that nature.
1:35:39
SPEAKER_02: For example, kindly beast.
1:35:42
SPEAKER_02: It meant that the beast was as it was.
1:35:46
SPEAKER_02: And then it started to gain,
1:35:48
SPEAKER_02: I think in the 18th,
1:35:51
SPEAKER_02: 19th century, it started to
1:35:56
SPEAKER_02: be used for in the religious context and
1:36:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh, so like,
1:36:02
SPEAKER_00: so to be kind is to treat yourself and others as if you're family,
1:36:07
SPEAKER_00: sort of, maybe originally as if you were of one plan.
1:36:11
SPEAKER_00: It seems so.
1:36:12
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's like, yeah,
1:36:14
SPEAKER_02: something about it being inherent also resonated for me,
1:36:18
SPEAKER_02: like inherent to who you are.
1:36:21
SPEAKER_00: Inherent to who you are.
1:36:23
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
1:36:25
SPEAKER_00: And then the energy of religion got infused and then it changed more.
1:36:32
SPEAKER_00: It got indoctrinated.
1:36:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's where the my resistance comes from.
1:36:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I'm I'm glad that we got to explore kindness.
1:36:44
SPEAKER_02: And for myself,
1:36:48
SPEAKER_02: I am just like feeling so excited even that I got to experience kindness
1:36:57
SPEAKER_02: and be aware of this.
1:37:02
SPEAKER_02: You know,
1:37:03
SPEAKER_02: for the first time in a long time,
1:37:05
SPEAKER_02: and then things just kept giving,
1:37:08
SPEAKER_02: like Lisa was there and Jakob was there,
1:37:11
SPEAKER_02: and then there was someone else whose community I joined,
1:37:17
SPEAKER_02: and I didn't make it to the live sessions, and I was listening in today.
1:37:22
SPEAKER_02: Also, somehow I wanted to get there,
1:37:26
SPEAKER_02: but I had a little bit of resistance even listening to those.
1:37:30
SPEAKER_02: And then the
1:37:35
SPEAKER_02: sense that I was getting was kindness, that of kindness was like the whole thing.
1:37:43
SPEAKER_02: It was about kindness, about him.
1:37:50
SPEAKER_02: Offering like this with open hands, you know, like, please know this.
1:37:57
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, and now I'm hesitant even to say thank you.
1:38:03
SPEAKER_02: I just accept.
1:38:07
SPEAKER_02: I receive.
1:38:08
SPEAKER_02: Receiving kindness is beautiful.
1:38:10
SPEAKER_00: Thank you is a receiving.
1:38:12
SPEAKER_00: It's a receiving.
1:38:13
SPEAKER_00: It's a cue.
1:38:15
SPEAKER_00: I am receiving.
1:38:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't mind hearing a thank you.
1:38:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:38:19
SPEAKER_02: So I just want to say I'm so,
1:38:22
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:38:23
SPEAKER_02: with so much gratitude,
1:38:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm receiving kindness and receiving kindness is so beautiful.
1:38:30
SPEAKER_00: But also look at the,
1:38:33
SPEAKER_00: like the effect of this,
1:38:34
SPEAKER_00: this man had, he not only has an effect on you, he's also had an effect on us.
1:38:42
SPEAKER_00: Because you came in today engaging with an energy with a frequency, right?
1:38:47
SPEAKER_00: That you are engaging with in a different way.
1:38:50
SPEAKER_00: And we were able to also access it and engage with it in a different way.
1:38:54
SPEAKER_00: So really it was an act of kindness because it had this generative expansive effect
1:38:59
SPEAKER_00: beyond just him and you, but also to us and our field today.
1:39:03
SPEAKER_00: So I thank him too.
1:39:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:39:07
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jakob.
1:39:09
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Jakob.
1:39:12
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Jakob.
1:39:16
SPEAKER_02: And thank you everyone who tuned in, who was exploring kindness with us and with themselves.
1:39:27
SPEAKER_02: We wish you kindness.
1:39:32
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:39:33
SPEAKER_02: Until next time.
1:39:55
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
1:39:56
SPEAKER_02: How was it for you?
1:39:58
SPEAKER_02: We believe that the more people experience group flow together, the better off we all are.
1:40:04
SPEAKER_02: More connected, more creative, more alive.
1:40:09
SPEAKER_02: So let's expand the field.
1:40:11
SPEAKER_01: If this episode resonated with you, help us spread the word.
1:40:17
SPEAKER_01: Share it with a friend, leave a comment or give us a rating.
1:40:22
SPEAKER_00: We love you.
1:40:24
SPEAKER_00: We'd love to hear from you.
1:40:25
SPEAKER_00: Let's keep flowing together.