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Top Lawyer and Author Jessica Childress Talks Toxic Workplaces · Millennial Mental Health Channel

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And so I think the information, just knowing Okay, something bad has happened,
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the acknowledgement's important, and then the courage to actually pick up the phone
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and call someone. This is Millennial Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano,
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a Child and Adolescent psychiatry fellow, and I'm Eddie Creo, a licensed
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clinical therapist. Our podcast is here because we wanted to start a much needed
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conversation about mental health. Our goal is to teach you as much as we
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can by sharing our own experiences and interviewing experts in the mental health field.
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We will discuss topics like mood disorders, psychotic disorders, substance use, personality
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disorders, and many more. Millennial Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone.
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We hope you enjoyed today's episode. MMHC is a production of Spreaker from iHeartMedia
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Irena. Hey, guys, welcome back to MMHC. We have a really
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special episode for you today. Eddie and I get a lot of emails from
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people wanting to come onto the show to talk about their books or their projects
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they've been working on, and every once in a while we get an email
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from someone we feel like would be a great fit for the show, and
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we have them on. Our guest today is Jessica Childress, and after reading
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her bio, Eddie and I couldn't wait to get her on the show.
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In the past, we've talked about how a toxic work environment can really impact
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your mental health, and the numbers back us up. A survey from the
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American Psychological Association showed that nineteen percent of workers say their workplace is vary or
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somewhat toxic, and those who reported a toxic workplace more than three times as
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likely to have said they have experienced harm to their mental health at work than
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those who reported a healthy workplace, so fifty two percent versus fifteen percent.
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Our guest today, Miss Jessica Childress, is an author of a new book
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called Peace, Leaving a Toxic Workplace on your Own Terms. She's an attorney,
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she works in this area, and she was willing to answer all Eddie
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and I's questions. Here's her bio. Miss Childress is the managing attorney and
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founder of The Childress Firm, PLC, a boutique employment law firm based in
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Washington, d C. Miss Childress holds a bachelor's of Arts and Government and
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African American Studies from the University of Virginia and a Juris Doctor from the University
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of Virginia School of Law. Miss Childress graduated Phi Beta Kappa and with High
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Distinction from the University of Virginia in two thousand and seven. She has served
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as an attorney for two global firms and as an attorney for the United States
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Department of Justice. She's been the recipient of several honors, including the National
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Bar Association's twenty and eighteen Young Lawyer of the Year Award, the Washington Bar
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Association's seventeen to eighteen Young Lawyer of the Year Award, the National Bar Association's
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forty under forty Best Advocate Award, the Kim Keenan Leadership and Advocacy Award,
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the Greater Washington Area Chapter of the National Bar Association's Rising Star Award, and
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recognition by the National Black Lawyers as one of the top one hundred Black Attorneys.
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You can see why Eddie and I were so excited. So without further
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ado, let's get right into it. Welcome Jessica. Thank you so much.
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Justin and Eddie, I really appreciate your time this afternoon. It's really
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a pleasure to be here. Well, if there's one thing I know about
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lawyers is that you have a lot of billable hours. So we appreciate your
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time because I know you are probably very busy. Now you all are busy
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as well. You're doing incredible work, So thank you so much for having
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me. All of our time is valuable. But this is really a pleasure
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to spread important information. Yeah, we're excited to share a little maybe like
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a little different sector for our listeners of just like what's out there in the
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world. I think the topic of just like workplace discrimination, harassment, retaliation,
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even the phrase of like toxic workplace it's probably something that unfortunately a lot
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of us are familiar with her, have seen, have heard about. So
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I know any information that you're gonna have today for our listening is going to
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be super helpful, either in the near future or in the distant future.
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It's all super helpful. So thank you my pleasure. One of the main
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reasons why we wanted to have you on the show is because you did just
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write a really excellent book about toxic workplace environments and breaking up with toxic workplace
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environments. It's a topic that's gaining a lot more traction. More and more
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people are talking about it. We had the great resignation in the wake of
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COVID people and we've talked a lot about it on the show. People are
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really tired of a workplace environment that takes advantage of them, that doesn't prioritize
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their mental health, that prioritizes money and profit over the actual well being of
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people. So when we have the opportunity to bring you on the show,
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we're like, yes, this is amazing. So tell us a little bit
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about your journey into writing this book and how you got into this topic.
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Justin and Eddie, again, thank you so much for your time this afternoon.
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It really is a pleasure to speak with your audience. I have always
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wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a lawyer when I was
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probably eight or nine years old. And I think one of the reasons behind
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wanting to be a lawyers that I just hated the idea of injustice. So
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I was the kid who was standing up to bullies, you know, on
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the bus and on the playground and just calling out anything that was unfair.
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I know, I'm probably got on my parents' nerves because I was always like
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this is on pair and telling me the reason behind that, and really getting
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people to justify their decisions. So just a short synopsis of my life.
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I went I was on the high school debate team, on a debate team
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called the Lincoln Douglas Debate Team, where we advocated for positions on very interesting
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topics whether companies that violate or whether countries that violated human rights should be subject
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to economic sanctions. Was my first debate and I was in tenth grade,
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I know, actually ninth grade, I believe, debating this topic, which
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and it just stuck. I mean it stuck with me because that was just
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such a you know, a random time, but an important one. So
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those were the types of topics that we debated, and there were topics of
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justice. And after high school, I went off to UVA. Was on
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our student judiciary committee my first year and we were my panelists, my judges
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and I. We were judges on the judiciary committee, so we set on
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panels where we adjudicated cases of student misconduct involving first year students, which was
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incredible. And then I went off to after my first year to be a
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counselor on the Judiciary committee representing students who were involved in violations of the university
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codes of conduct, and we also had the opportunity to represent the university in
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cases against students and represent the position of the university. And then I went
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off to law school and the rest is a bit of history. My first
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job was clerking for a federal judge, where I had the opportunity to see
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employment law cases that came through the court. And then after my clerkship that
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was a year long, I went off to work and what's called big law
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and the industry, So that's big corporate law, representing some of the best
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companies in the world in employment disputes. So from a management side perspective,
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so I got the opportunity to create employment handbooks, employment policies, conduct trainings
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on best practices and employment law, and educate employers on key employment laws that
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they needed to know, and even do employment litigation, which is what I've
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done throughout my career. I did a brief stint at the Department of Justice.
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I'd like to say that I did time because I have worked for the
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Bureau of the Bureau of Presents is the organization or it's the federal agency that
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they're the administrative body for the Bureau of Prisons, and so I did employment
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side work, management side work there, and I just got a lot of
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experience work with the EOC and handling discrimination and harassment cases for management side officials
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who were working in prisons, and so that was just an incredible experience and
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I just gained so much experience trial experience in that particular position. Then went
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off to Big Law, went back to Big Law again, and then in
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twenty sixteen, I opened up my own firm where I now represent both employees
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and employers and employment law disputes. I conduct internal investigations for companies who are
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undergoing investigations about any employee misconduct, and I conduct trainings about how to create
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safe workplaces, how to create respectful workplaces. And that's really just what I
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love. I love educating employers about best practices because no one wants to work
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in a toxic work environment. And I really don't think people intentionally try to
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create toxic work environments, but a lot of toxic work environments is well,
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I'm sure we'll talk about are born from ignorance and not knowing what the requirements
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are, not knowing what you're actually saying or doing that could create an unsafe
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workplace for people. And so I really want to help organizations understand their obligations.
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And then if these organizations don't understand what their obligations are or not compliant
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with those obligations, I think it's important for employees to understand how to lead.
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So that's really what brought me to writing my book, and we can
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talk more about it as we go on in the episode. But that was
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my quote unquote brief synopsis. No, that was great. I think it's
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it's cool to see your whole journey. I really appreciate your story of like
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when you were younger, of like ever since you're like eight nine years old,
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wanted to be a lawyer and standing up for basically what's right and going
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about making the right decisions or what's fair for people fair and just do you
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feel this might be a little too like existential But do you think like the
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young Jessica and her want to do things that are right, or your clerkship
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and your early experiences or is it a combination of both that really led you
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to specialize in things like workplace discrimination, harassment, and retaliation. So,
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Eddie, that's a great question. I think that I have always wanted to
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be a civil rights attorney, and I knew when I was an undergrad.
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I think at the end of my undergraduate experience, after doing some clerkship or
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doing some internships when I was an undergrad, that I wanted to be a
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civil rights attorney and protect civil rights in some way. I didn't know if
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that would be educational civil rights. I didn't know if that would be housing
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civil rights. But I did know that I just could not tolerate injustice and
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I really wanted to change institutions. And when I got to law school,
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I think the natural trajectory for or just the common not natural, but the
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common trajectory for students who went to my law school was to go into corporate
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law. And so that was just kind of a natural path. It was
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just it was just the common path. Many many students did go into public
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service. I did go into corporate law, but I wanted to do something
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that would still have a civil rights component. And employment law has I mean,
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the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four. Title seven of the Civil
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Rights Act of nineteen sixty four is the pre eminent civil rights law, so
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that protects against discrimination on the basis of the race, age, color,
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national origin, sex, pregnancy, so actually pregnancy, there's a separate act
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for that, but this is the pre eminent civil rights statute, and that
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is really what you are arguing when you are taking on a case involving employment
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civil rights. Primarily their state analogous statutes, but the Title seven of the
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Civil Rights Act is really what you need to know. And then states have
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their own version of their civil rights statutes. And so this was just a
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way for me to still be a civil rights attorney, even though when I
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started practicing, I was representing only management side officials. And I think you
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brought up a great point there that there are certain things that you can get
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legal help for in terms of if you've been discriminated on the basis of race,
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religion, and recurignancy status. And that's I think an important point.
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And expand on that a little bit, like when do people start to seek
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legal help, because I think a lot of people work in a lot of
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toxic work environments, but I'm not sure if they know when you can actually
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start trying to get a lawyer, maybe start to look into discrimination, harassment,
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things like that. So what are your thoughts. It's really hard for
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people to recognize that something is going wrong. I think people want to believe
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that the best in people, and so even thinking, Okay, something is
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awry here, you know, I really need to talk to someone about it.
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Even talking to the people in your friend circle or your family circle could
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be hard because you don't want to think that something is going wrong. So
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talking to a lawyer, just picking up the phone or sending an email to
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say, hey, I want to talk to you, that can be a
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very very hard step because it first takes the acknowledgement that something has arisen to
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the level that legal counsel needs to come in and be an advocate. So
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I think it's really really important the step where I think people should know that
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when people should actually consult with an attorney. I think it really is when
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you feel as though you really can't take this environment anymore, or it could
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be an assault, you know, if it's something if you're assaulted, you
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know, you know, I think you know that you've been assaulted, right,
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it's pretty obvious, if that's an obvious example. But even so,
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you can still even with an assault, you can still feel shocked. You
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don't know what to do, You're you're still wondering, hey, did that
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really really happen, even though it could be very obvious that it happened,
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And so it takes an acknowledgement first that something bad has happened. I think
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that sometimes it's the people around us that tell you, hey, I think
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you should this might be a violation. You know, I really think that
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you should talk to someone about this. In trainings that I give, and
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I think many many people who give anti harassment trainings, they do go over
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what the law requires. I mean, if you're not giving that information as
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a trainer, not really sure what you're doing because you I mean, that's
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the baseline. It's that you have to inform employees and employers about what the
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law is. And so if you're but that training often happens once a year,
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so it's not as and this is not the training. You know.
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I'm an employment lawyer, so I think all of this is just fascinating.
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But if that's not your job, you know, you you might just be
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checking the box. You might not retain that information, and so you might
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be wondering, hey, like what is discrimination? What's harassment? Did this
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happen? Where's my ployment handbook, how do I report? And so it
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can be very hard just because of the information disadvantage. There could be you
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know, someone might not even have their employment handbook to know how to report
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something, or to know how their company defines harassment or discrimination, or to
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know how the law defines harassment and discrimination or toxic work environment. And so
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I think the information just knowing, Okay, something bad has happened, the
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acknowledgement's important, and then the courage to actually pick up the phone and call
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someone and to call an attorney. I think that's really what's required. Having
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a hard time like knowing when it's like something is going wrong, like like
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resonated with me a little bit. I can this is like subjective, but
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I feel like probably my last employer and maybe even the first two, like
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there's some things or I just had a really hard time and I had a
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hard time getting to the point of saying that like something was wrong for like
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a bunch of different reasons. One that stuck out as you were sharing that
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is like maybe I just need to be more grateful that I have this job,
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and I just need to be more appreciative that I get to work here
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and I love other pieces of my job, so if I like that,
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then I have no reason to complain. So as you're saying that, I'm
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like, oh, man, like that's really sticking out to me. And
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I'm sure a lot of people, a lot of other people probably have felt
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similarly that it's like it's hard to ask for help already, and maybe I
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should just be more grateful of what I have in front of me and like
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just let the other things like slide away. Absolutely, Eddie, I mean,
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that's one thousand percent correct. I think that there are many considerations to
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making a report. I always train employees and employers about the importance of making
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a report of discrimination or harassment because internally, not even externally, but internally,
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because the company has to know that something wrong is going on so that
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they can then take action to correct it. But it can be very difficult
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to say something internally because you are afraid that you might lose your job.
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You go through the feelings of should I feel grateful just to have this position.
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Many of us are caretakers, many people are parents. There you know,
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we have to have money to live and so these are this is our
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livelihood right, and so reporting something could mean, if a work environment is
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not understanding there, if an organization does not understand their legal obligations, they
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could act in a way that's vitaliatory and unlawful if someone does make a report.
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So it's really really important that organizations understand what their practices and what their
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culture should be. I know, for me, when I was working in
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a place that really should have understood what their legal obligations were, it was
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they did something that I thought was unlawful, and I did say something about
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it, but it took a long time for me to think about or for
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me to actually say, Okay, I actually need to say something. And
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I went through this entire analysis about whether or not I should say something.
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Should I just be grateful, should I just let it go? And I
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ultimately did say something. But in that moment, I realized that it's really
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hard for people. I'm a trained advocate and have been advocating for other people
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for years, have been advocating for you know, positions for years, and
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it was really difficult in that time for me to say, hey, like
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this is wrong, Like this is what you all did wrong, this is
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how this needs to be corrected. I know, like I was cursed at
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during when I was actually and it was it was profanity that was used during
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a discussion and it was directed to me, and I didn't say anything.
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It was really inappropriate. It was someone who had a position of authority within
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an organization, and I didn't say anything. I just froze and took it.
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But I know that for me having to work with that person again was
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really scary because I then just shut down. I wasn't going to feel like
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I could do my best when I was afraid to work with someone because of
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the way that they would talk to me. And so it's really difficult to
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speak up because you are wondering, especially if fear is a power and balance,
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You're wondering if you say something, is the person going to see the
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situation the same way that you did. But I do think it's important to
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speak up internally, and then a lawyer can really I think, empower people
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to say, hey, yeah, you should say something, something wrong did
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happen, And that validation can be all that it takes for someone to feel
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like they can speak up. A validation from someone who looks at these cases
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and advocates for these types of cases day in and day out. The word
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grateful has up a few times, and I think that's a really important point
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where it feels like the older generation, their mindset was you should be grateful
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to have a job, You should be grateful that things are your stable home.
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But I also think that that mindset leaves a lot of room for abuse
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and abusing workers. From someone who actually works in the field and works with
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this on a day to day, do you feel like the mindset is changing,
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that their culture is starting to understand like, hey, it's okay to
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talk out about these things, it's okay to try and communicate so that we
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can make a more healthy work environment. So I think that the me Too
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movement really did help employers understand that harassment happens, and me Too was centered
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in sexual harassment, but I think the premise the premises are the same.
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The legal framework for racial discrimination, sexual discrimination, discrimination on the basis of
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any protected category is rooted in the same analysis as you that you would do
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for a sexual harassment case, and so the training that's required you have to
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create an environment that's safe for employer, for employees, you have to investigate
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claims of any misconduct, especially discrimination and harassment, and you have to empower
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employees to report, and employers have to understand how to respond to reports of
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misconduct. And so I'm really grateful for that movement. And again I didn't
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mean to use someone grateful, but I'm happy. That was just no pun
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intended, but I am. I am very very happy that we had that
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movement because I do think that it inspired organizations to make sure that they had
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some system in place to respond to complaints of discrimination and harassment. I think
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it also empowered workers to understand that this is happening. You are not alone,
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and people think they're alone and they're not. So the social media movement
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that came out of me Too, with people sharing stories that they never shared
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before and then speaking up and calling out harassers, I think that was revolutionary
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in the way that we respond now to harassment claims. So I think there
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was a huge trend after twenty eighteen in the way that employers train their employees
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to report, and I think there was more information surrounding the importance of reporting
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harassment and empowering I mean, I think that that was just the that's the
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key thing that I see that is the barrier to reporting discrimination and harassment is
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that people just don't feel empowered to do so. Yeah, when it comes
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to reporting, like how what should people know? Like how can someone go
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about reporting misconduct, harassment, whatever it is. We let's say we just,
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for example, we have someone who finally feels like, Okay, I've
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dealt with this enough, my support system supports me off, talked to enough
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people, I want to do something about it. What should people know about
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taking those next steps forward? Sure, so organizations, I mean large organizations,
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they should have a reporting policy. So large organization should have a reporting
23:15
policy. That reporting policy should be given to all employees onboarding. And so
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when you start at a job, you really should get your employee handbook.
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That handbook should have a reporting policy to report any claims of misconduct. There
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should be a code of conducts somewhere within that employee handbook. And there should
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be a system that's outlined in that handbook that tells employees how to report claims
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of discrimination, harassment, abusive work environments. And that is standard. That's
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not the case for all organizations. If you are a small mom and pop
23:56
business, you may not have had the resources to create an employee handbook,
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or the time or the knowledge to create an employee handbook. So this is
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not the case industry wide. There you may not have an employee handbook.
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But if you are of mid size to large organization, there should be a
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reporting policy and you should follow that reporting policy. If you don't know how
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to follow, if you don't know where that policy exists, you should speak
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to HR if it's safe to do so. You should speak to a supervisor
24:27
if they're not the harasser. But typically there is a system built in to
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report to someone other than a harasser. If you feel like the person who
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is harassing you, of course you're not going to want to report to them,
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So there should be a system built in to report to someone else us.
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But I would start with finding that policy in your employee handbook. And
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this is where I think lawyers do come in. If you can't find that
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policy, you can talk to your lawyer about, Hey, what do I
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do? Now? You know? Is there do I need to report some
25:00
something to the board? Do I need to report something to the CEO?
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Do I need to report this to someone else, to a governmental organization?
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So that's really I think that's the analysis that you should go through. But
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you should start with Okay, what's in my employee handbook? Let me first
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start to report internally. What I love about what you do is that you're
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not only a lawyer and you're advocating for people. You're also creating all these
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trainings that are going to help employers create a better workplace environment for their employees.
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And we are going to have some resources in the show notes, So
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tell us a little bit about those, and also like try and make a
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case for if there are any board members out there, CEOs or anything listening
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to this, why is it so important to create a workplace environment that people
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feel safe in. I am creating trainings. I've been doing trainings for years,
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training organizations on how to create safer workplaces, training employees on how to
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report, training managers on how to respond to claims of discrimination and harassment.
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But these trainings, I think organizations have to have the resources to bring in
26:15
a trainer, and so often it is the more privileged organizations that are able
26:19
to afford a training, and so there I think that privilege trickles down right.
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So if an organization doesn't have the resources to bring a trainer in,
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how are they going to empower and inform their employees about their obligations and their
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rights. So I do recognize that power and balance and that just the resource
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inequity there. So it's important to me that information is accessible, and that's
26:47
why I created my E course, my upcoming ebook it's coming out in January
26:52
of twenty twenty four. But I wanted employees and employers to understand what their
26:56
legal rights are, and I wanted employees to understand how to leave toxic work
27:03
environments because despite how much training we do, my intention is to make sure
27:07
that workplaces are safe. But if a workplace remains unsafe, I don't think
27:12
that people should stay in those work environments. I mean, of course,
27:15
it's going to depend on their individual circumstances. Everyone has to do an assessment
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as about you know, what is my life require? Some people don't have
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an option, unfortunately, but in my book and E course, I try
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to lay out what are some of the alternatives? Can you can you ask
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to work in a different in a different department. Can you ask to take
27:36
some administrative leave if you are undergoing some sort of psychological or physical distress because
27:44
of your work environment. Is fmla Family Medical and Leave Act leave available?
27:48
What are your leave policies, So there are a host of options that may
27:52
not include absolutely leaving. You also have to think about what are your post
27:57
of your post work for restrictions. Are there any restrictive covenants that prohibit you
28:03
from going to work into in another industry? So there are many many things
28:07
that you should consider. I actually have a checklist that I'll put I'll give
28:11
you to put into the show notes in which people can there's a checklist with
28:15
key considerations before you should that you should make before leaving a toxic work environment,
28:21
because it's not just open and shut decision. It really is multifaceted.
28:27
So that is one of the resources that is going to be in my e
28:32
coourse in my ebook. But I wanted to create information that was accessible because
28:37
I think that we don't have enough accessible information. Attorneys are expensive, and
28:41
again there is a barrier to accessing an attorney that's licensed to practice within your
28:45
jurisdictions. It's not the case that you can just pick up the phone and
28:51
you're going to receive legal representation. So this is an informational resource that will
28:56
it won't it's not legal advice, but it will provide information and so that
29:00
people can at least have a starting point. I want to be mindful of
29:03
time, just kind of know we're close to the end of this as we
29:07
wrap up. Any partying words, anything that you want to give our listeners
29:12
as we wrap up today's episode. I feel like I just got so much
29:17
information that I feel very appreciative. I'm always impressed with how much lawyers can
29:22
reference years and like acts and laws and things like that, so that's really
29:26
cool for me. But any partying words for our listeners as we start to
29:30
wrap up for today, this has just been a true pleasure. Again,
29:34
I just love the work that you're doing because knowledge is power. And when
29:38
we hear that you're not alone. When you hear that this happens, workplace
29:45
misconduct happens all the time, and it's important to feel empowered enough to say
29:51
something. And you don't know how even and we haven't talked about bystander intervention
29:56
and speaking up for other people. But even if you're not the person who's
30:00
enduring a toxic workplace, if you are listening and you know of someone who
30:04
is enduring a toxic workplace, let them know that they're not alone. Let
30:08
them know that there are resources available to them and make sure that we never
30:14
normalize toxic work environments. It's very easy to just laugh off inappropriate comments and
30:21
not say anything because we're uncomfortable. But when we do those things, it
30:26
allows toxic work environments to fester, and we don't want to do that.
30:30
So call out things even if it's uncomfortable, and know that you're not alone
30:36
if you are enduring a toxic work environment. Thank you so much, Jess,
30:40
and you got anything. Just a reminder that in this country, in
30:44
our society, we spend a lot of our time at work, and if
30:48
we're in a toxic work environment, it can be really hard on our mental
30:52
health. You can increase anxiety, you can increase depression, and I've known
30:56
some people who have worked in some pretty talk sick work environments and they come
31:02
home and they just need to vent for a long time because they need to
31:03
get a lot of things off their back. So this is really important.
31:07
This is important for our society, This is important for our mental health.
31:11
I'm so appreciative of the work that you're doing and trying to make this better
31:15
for Americans in general. I think it's such a cool thing and I'd love
31:18
that you have such a wealth of resources that people can access that are actually
31:22
make things better. Thank you so much, Eddie Ingested. I'll make our
31:26
wrap up short and sweet. You know where to find our podcasts if you're
31:30
listening to it, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whatever you're using. All our
31:33
social medias are at Millennium MHC and as always, take care of all mentals