Latest / HER / Sugarcoated: How to Manage Your Daily Sugar

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Sugarcoated: How to Manage Your Daily Sugar · HER

0:07
Pam Peeke, MD: Hi, I'm Dr.
0:08
Pam Peeke, and this is episode number 568
0:14
of The Bold and the BraveHER podcast.
0:18
Now, today I'm once again joined by my dear friend and colleague, Dr.
0:23
Marion Nestle, who is professor of nutrition, food studies, and public
0:28
health emerita at New York University, and basically internationally acclaimed
0:36
as one of the great nutrition scientists, especially as it relates to public policy.
0:43
and so there you have it.
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She's kind of like the ultimate nightmare of the food industry.
0:49
Just saying.
0:50
Just throwing it out there.
0:52
when they have bad dreams, it's usually her face that shows up.
0:56
Oh, Marion, welcome back to theHER podcast.
1:00
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh, glad to be here as always
1:03
Pam Peeke, MD: You and I, you know, we just sort of sit
1:05
back and wax philosophical.
1:08
This time we get to do it in a really cool way, and that is
1:12
because you've got yet another book.
1:16
How many books is this now?
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: I think this is 18
1:20
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay.
1:21
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: you count the edited ones and the co-authored ones.
1:26
This one's co-authored
1:28
Pam Peeke, MD: So this is definitely not your first rodeo.
1:30
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: No
1:31
Pam Peeke, MD: This is your 18th rodeo.
1:33
So every single one of these is just, a mind-blower, and I walk away after reading
1:41
your books with such great one-liners and wild stuff that I absolutely had no clue.
1:48
But you do deep dives.
1:50
Now, this one is really-- it kinda hits home to many, people.
1:56
It's called Sugar Coated.
1:58
Ooh, Sugar Coated.
2:01
And what on earth could this be about?
2:03
Well, you know, Sugar Coated basically is all about those lovely things many
2:10
people have been eating for years, and that's your little breakfast cereal.
2:16
And, you know, it's interesting.
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When I was reading this, it's such a cultural, you know, statement, too,
2:25
about what happened, you know, with industry and our acceptance of all
2:30
this over the years and back and forth.
2:32
What got you in-- you know, to pivot over to this for this particular book?
2:38
'Cause you've written about so many other things.
2:41
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Well, I've collected cereal boxes for years.
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And the,
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Pam Peeke, MD: Why the
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hell were you doing that?
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Well, the reason for collecting them was
2:51
that the companies change the boxes very frequently during the year.
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So they're very responsive to, changes in regulations, cultural trends, things
3:04
that are happening in society, new research, all of that kind of thing.
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And in 1988, I was the editor of the Surgeon General's Report on
3:13
Nutrition and Health in Washington, DC.
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I worked for the Reagan administration and edited this report.
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And within minutes of its coming out, General Mills produced a cereal saying on
3:30
the front of the box that it met all seven recommendations of the surgeon general
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So I bought that box.
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I, you know, I was just thrilled.
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My report was on the front of a cereal box.
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what could be better?
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And then over the years, I very unsystematically would pick up
3:54
boxes with ridiculous health claims.
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you know, if a box was advertising that it was gonna take care of your
4:03
immunity forever, I would grab it.
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If it…
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I mean, I remember, alphabet cereals that had no sugar in it.
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I thought, "Oh, I better get that one.
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That's, an amazing thing."
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And I was using these boxes in s- as slides in talks that I was giving.
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and, you know, I threw out the cereal and kept the box.
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And, after a while, I had quite a number of them.
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And when my literary agent asked, what my next book was gonna be after
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my book What to Eat Now came out last year, I said, "Well, maybe it's time
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to do something with my cereal boxes."
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You know, I've got a lot of them.
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They're really interesting.
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you can use the cereal boxes to talk about a lot of things in
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the food and nutrition landscape.
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You can talk about regulation.
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You could talk about culture.
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You can talk about marketing.
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You could talk about all kinds of things.
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and he said, "Well, nobody's gonna wanna read it, but, you
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know, write me a proposal."
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And so I started writing the proposal, and then I had a, memory.
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And, the memory made me stop writing the proposal.
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And the memory was that 15 years ago, I had been at Battle
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Creek you know, in Michigan.
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And, I was visiting the Kellogg, Corporation offices
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and factories in Battle Creek.
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Because I had asked to look at their archives of cereals, because
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I couldn't remember what nutrition information on cereal boxes looked
5:53
like before 1990 when Congress passed the Nutrition Labeling Act.
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And I had met this woman, Lisa Sutherland, who was a nutritionist, who
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was working for a lot of food companies.
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Hannaford, Walmart, Chobani.
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I mean, she was, a nutritionist who worked with food companies, and she
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had just written me to say that she was a vice president of Kellogg.
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I said, "Get me into the files."
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so she said okay.
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She tried to get me into the files.
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And the, apparently there was a go-ahead on that, so I flew out to Battle Creek.
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And when I got there, she, and her colleague said, "Do you
6:42
want the good news or the bad
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Pam Peeke, MD: Oh God, here we go
6:45
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Here we go.
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So I said, "I'll take the bad news first."
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And the bad news was that the lawyers weren't gonna let
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me anywhere near the files.
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I said, "Okay, what's the good news?"
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And the good news was spectacular.
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They had, on their own initiative, made color Xeroxes of the front
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and back of three sets of cereals from the year they were introduced
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until 2010 when I was there.
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So they gave me color Xeroxes of All Bran dating back to 1919, Rice Krispies
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from 1928, and Froot Loops from 1963, the years these cereals were introduced.
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And we sat there looking at these things, and they were saying
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things like, "Oh, look at this one.
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This is when the FDA passed this regulation.
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Oh, look at this.
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This is when that All Bran research came
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Pam Peeke, MD: Hello, we're connecting dots
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: You know, "Oh, look at this one.
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This was when Center for Science in the Public Interest sued us."
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And, you know, we looked at each other and said, "Oh my
8:01
goodness, there's a book in this.
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You know, these are the basis of a book."
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And then we lost touch and forgot about it.
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And about five years later, I guess Lisa Sutherland and I had some correspondence.
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We had, we met in 2014.
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we sort of talked about the book again, and we, you know, we had some
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correspondence about whether we could use images of cereal boxes in a book
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without having to go through elaborate permissions and copyright things.
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and the lawyers told us if we, if this was academic purposes, it, would be fair use.
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And then we completely lost touch.
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And so I'm sitting there writing this proposal and thinking, " Maybe
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I should get in touch with
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Lisa
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Pam Peeke, MD: Just saying, maybe that's a good idea
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: you know, and just tell her that I'm doing this, so she
9:00
knows and sort of gives me her blessing."
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And she was very hard to track down.
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She doesn't have much internet presence.
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But eventually, I spent a whole morning on it.
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Eventually, I found her, and she was at Jacksonville University in Florida.
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I tracked her down.
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I got an email address.
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I wrote her what I was doing, and she wrote back one line,
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"I'm doing this with you."
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So I said, "Okay, let's find out if we can write together," because
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I had a very bad experience.
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And, we did the proposal together
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Pam Peeke, MD: That's the one way to tell.
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you know, having been there, done that.
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absolutely, that's the one way to tell.
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So if you guys can get along writing a proposal, then for
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sure there's, a book in this too.
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So she's…
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Is she still with Jacksonville?
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: She's the president of Jacksonville
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Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, so she's just north of
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me 'cause I'm in, St.
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Augustine
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh, she's a busy lady.
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s- she's interim, she's the new interim president of Jacksonville University.
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Pam Peeke, MD: totally cool
10:07
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: But we had the best time writing this book.
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I mean, absolutely the best time.
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She knew all kinds of things about Kellogg's marketing.
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She was a vice president for nutrition for Kellogg.
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She knew a lot about the ins and outs
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of marketing and knew the legal stuff, all of the, I mean, the lawsuits.
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I mean, one of the things the book does is it relates a history of
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unrelenting fighting of lawsuits.
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It's kind of amazing.
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We had a really good time writing the book, and it was, it was one of the, one
10:45
of the best writing partnerships I've ever
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Pam Peeke, MD: How did you, how long did it take you to write this book?
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Well, it turns out if you have two
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people writing, it takes half the
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time.
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Pam Peeke, MD: So like
10:57
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: it went, oh, it was under a year.
10:59
It w- I think we wrote it in eight months.
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It went really fast
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Pam Peeke, MD: Well, you know, you had a lot of data.
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You had an insider who could really, you know, help guide you through this
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thing, and you're both excellent writers.
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: I'm,
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Pam Peeke, MD: you're smarty pants in the field.
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It's not like, you know, you got some guy from Jiffy Lube to write it with you.
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So you got two nutrition experts, you know, kinda going at it.
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And so here it is.
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And, I'm gonna tell you right now, this thing is just, it reads beautifully
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Okay, now you've finished the book.
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What does it look like, Marion?
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Looks like a cereal box.
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Here it is
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Pam Peeke, MD: Oh my goodness.
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It-- look at this.
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Sugar coated, and let's just see what it says.
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"Unboxing the hidden…"
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what does it say?
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"Forces shaping America's favorite breakfast food."
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It literally looks like a sugar-- it's got those
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little colorful sugary things coming down into a bowl
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: And we asked the designer if he could please sugarcoat
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the letters, the big black letters.
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So they have little sugar, they have little sugary
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Pam Peeke, MD: Little sugary things on them.
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Oh, my goodness gracious.
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You know, I gotta tell you something, Marion.
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I missed all of that stuff during my childhood.
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I was,
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh, I did too.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, well, thank God.
12:32
You know, sometimes you're just protected from craziness.
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But, my mother would, offer us, you know, five children,
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Cream of Wheat and, oatmeal.
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Cream of Wheat, no.
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That was a no.
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That was a hard no.
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but the oatmeal I could dress up.
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You know, nuts, berries.
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I'd do a little bit of brown sugar.
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I just ha- of raisins, by definition.
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It was just the coolest thing ever, and no wonder I was so regular.
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So I'm just saying, and my cholesterol is probably zero by the end of this thing.
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but, you know, I miss that whole thing.
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and it came out just as I was kind of going through my part of life
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where, you know, suddenly, other things were appearing on the horizon.
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I don't know, when did yogurt get to be such a thing, you know?
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Yeah, it was much later.
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But on the other hand, I don't know.
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Now, Marion, we're both graduates of UC Berkeley.
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Now, at Berkeley, at the co-op and everything, they had muesli,
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and they had much better options.
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So…
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: day
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Pam Peeke, MD: Oh, well, you know, mine did 'cause I remember that.
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I was like, "I gotta look it up.
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What the hell is muesli?"
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But, on the overall, not bad.
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You know, there was a little porridge kinda stuff and whatever.
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or you just ran like hell and didn't have breakfast 'cause you had an 8:00 class,
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which is kind of the way most of it went.
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But there you are.
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So let's go back to Sugar Coated.
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When did this…
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So this stuff, you said the Kellogg's stuff started around 1963?
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: no, Froot Loops was
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1963.
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Froot Loops.
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No, Kellogg's started in the, you know,
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Kellogg-
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Pam Peeke, MD: the sugary stuff from
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh, they-- It started in the 1950s.
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the cereal companies had to wait until, John Harvey Kellogg died before they
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could put a lot of sugar into the cereals.
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Pam Peeke, MD: going for it
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: He was a health food nut.
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a really committed health food believer.
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Actually, a lot of what he believed in reminds me of Robert F.
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Kennedy Jr.
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but you know, he had one really good idea, which is that high-fiber
15:00
cereals were good for your digestion.
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That's an idea that has lasted.
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However, he took it much further than that.
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And, he based his ideas on Seventh Day Adventism, so there was a
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big religious component in this.
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But he believed that, if you ate unprocessed cereals, it would
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take care of your digestion.
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Taking care of your digestion would take care of all of your other illnesses,
15:30
and it would stop you from masturbating.
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I mean, you can't,
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Pam Peeke, MD: Okay.
15:35
I'm, trying to connect those dots,
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: stuff up.
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You c-
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Pam Peeke, MD: working
15:39
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: you can't make this stuff up.
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But that was his belief system.
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And when his younger brother, W.K.
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Kell- Kellogg, who invented Post cereals, was trying to make these
15:54
cereals more palatable by adding sugar, he was very limited in the
16:00
amount of sugar that John Harvey Kellogg would let him get away with.
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And so Corn Flakes, which was the Post cereal, had very, little sugar
16:09
in it, and his formula is still the same a hundred years later.
16:14
Corn Flakes still doesn't have much sugar in it
16:17
Pam Peeke, MD: having corn flakes,
16:19
right?
16:20
but you had to dress it up, you know, strawberries and, you know
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Yeah.
16:24
It doesn't have much fiber either, but never mind
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Pam Peeke, MD: Great, so I wasted my time.
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Right
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Pam Peeke, MD: When did Weedy show up?
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh, it's, somewhere in there.
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and I don't remember the exact date.
16:40
but that's a General Mills cereal, and so it came somewhat later.
16:44
But the, And I'm sorry, I don't remember the date
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Pam Peeke, MD: Well, you know, the reason why I bring it up is because the
16:51
branding on that one as it related to slapping sports people, you know, on
16:57
the cover was brilliant because then you were, you know, however they wanted to
17:02
brand this, then you were kind of saying to yourself, "Oh, if I have Wheaties,
17:05
I'm gonna have big, strong muscles," and, you know, all the rest of it.
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So,
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: And w- and win oly- and win Olympic medals
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Pam Peeke, MD: Absolutely.
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Wheaties to Olympics.
17:17
Okay.
17:18
So, you know, you divided your book up into categories.
17:23
You were looking at, for instance, the thing that really grabs me are claims.
17:30
You know, claims about heart health, cl- w- claims about strength in your
17:35
muscles and all the rest of it, claims about immunity and the rest of it.
17:40
You know, how did that go over?
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Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: It sold cereal.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Well, that answers that.
17:47
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: I mean, really simple.
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you go down the aisle and you see that a cereal is going to
17:53
improve your kid's cognition, you're gonna bry- buy that cereal.
17:57
That one didn't last long.
17:59
The FDA didn't like that one.
18:01
the history that we tell in this book is of relentless cereal
18:07
company pushing the envelope.
18:10
And endless FDA pushback, until finally the cereal companies did
18:17
an end run around the FDA and got, Congress to insist that they be allowed
18:25
to, put health claims on cereals.
18:28
And then they just went wild with them.
18:31
And it's very disappointing because there aren't nearly as many health claims
18:35
on cereals now as there used to be.
18:38
I mean, there's Cheerios saying lowers cholesterol, and a bunch
18:43
of them have little heart d- heart disease claims on them.
18:47
But the really fun old stuff is gone
18:51
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, you know, it's interesting.
18:52
Do you remember when they started getting, that little stamp of approval
18:57
from, the American Dietetic Association, the American Heart Association?
19:04
Go right down the list.
19:05
what was the genesis of all of that?
19:08
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Money.
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Money.
19:11
I mean, really simple.
19:14
The, you know, there was a, an exchange, and they weren't, you
19:19
know, they're, they weren't really…
19:21
I mean, the Heart Association that did endorsements of products, and because
19:26
the Heart Association, for a long time, only cared about saturated fat, total
19:32
fat, and cholesterol, and didn't care at all about sugar, it was putting
19:38
its endorsement on sugary cereals.
19:41
You know,
19:41
Pam Peeke, MD: That is so interesting.
19:43
So, all right, you had a memory lane thing.
19:46
I'm gonna give you one that's kind of a bit of a mind blower.
19:49
So this was back in, oh, my goodness gracious, 2000 and,
19:55
like, three-ish, four-ish.
19:57
Okay?
19:58
I was doing a lot of, work with, the television networks as a, a physician
20:05
expert in health and all the rest of it.
20:08
And I was asked by CNN to show up and to have a conversation
20:12
with their correspondent, now get this, Tucker Carlson.
20:16
So Tucker I know we're just laughing.
20:19
It's like, "Oh, my, have times changed."
20:21
But anyway, so he had the bow tie thing, and he's doing that whole thing.
20:26
And he thought that since I'm a, you know, a physician, a health expert, that
20:32
I'd certainly be on the, you know, side of the American Heart Association and
20:36
the American Diabetes Association as it related to that little stamp of approval.
20:42
So what did he do?
20:44
He whips out the Froot Loops, and he whips out, I think it was, like,
20:48
Count Chocula or something crazy.
20:51
And there was the seal of approval, and he looked at me like, you
20:55
know, he'd kind of gotten me.
20:57
Like, "Okay, Doctor, you know, look what your people have done."
21:01
And then I got him back, and I said, "I don't agree with any of them.
21:06
I think this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen.
21:09
How in the hell can you approve of something with this amount
21:12
of processed sugar in it?"
21:13
And back and forth.
21:14
He was completely blown away.
21:16
He was not ready for that one because I was in agreement.
21:20
I said, "This is a, a travesty.
21:23
and somebody got bought off by someone."
21:26
Just saying, just putting it out there.
21:29
You know?
21:29
And that's how I remember it.
21:32
Oh, my gosh, it's been so long.
21:34
And yet, here we are today, you know, with a lot of this…
21:38
You know, it's interesting.
21:39
When I was reading your book, there's, you know, every now and then
21:43
certain things stick in your brain.
21:45
And it occurred to me, you know, you said the sheer size of the cereal box,
21:50
most measure 12 by 8 inches, makes it possible for cereal companies to
21:56
use them as marketing billboards.
22:00
Never occurred to me.
22:02
I was walking around with a damn billboard.
22:06
Oh, my goodness gracious.
22:09
and there it is.
22:11
So the claims, let's flash forward to today.
22:15
What's going on today?
22:16
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Well, there are heart disease claims.
22:19
there's no gluten claims, then particularly on Cheerios and
22:25
various kinds of Cheerios.
22:28
and you know, and then there's protein.
22:32
Pam Peeke, MD: Oh God, the protein.
22:33
We have protein in flowers now.
22:35
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: My,
22:36
Pam Peeke, MD: crazy
22:37
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: my, my current favorite cereal example is
22:41
cookies and cream Cheerios protein.
22:45
Pam Peeke, MD: It's like, what?
22:46
Wait a minute.
22:47
Let me sit with this for a minute.
22:49
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: I think it's so funny.
22:52
Pam Peeke, MD: It's like, l- we'll just sugarcoat the protein, and then we'll…
22:57
Yeah, okay,
22:58
fine.
22:58
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: P protein, by the way
23:00
Pam Peeke, MD: Oh, wait a minute.
23:02
Now we have this, this whole virtual signaling from the plant community.
23:08
So, oh, my goodness gracious.
23:11
That's just insane.
23:13
Totally insane.
23:14
All
23:15
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: so much fun.
23:15
It really is
23:17
Pam Peeke, MD: I know.
23:17
Well, you know, one of the things I've seen lately is, thank God
23:24
for this, is they're taking the damn, coloring out of everything.
23:30
N- it, it's-- I- I'm sorry, that's really cool.
23:34
that's disgusting when you read the side label and you see what they put in it.
23:40
It's like, really?
23:41
It's all the marketing thing, you know, as people are leaning
23:45
into, this whole health gig.
23:49
So the marketing thing is something I've been watching very, closely.
23:54
And when we come back, we're gonna start right in with that 'cause
23:57
I wanna really understand what happened with cereal and marketing
25:01
And we're back.
25:02
Okay.
25:02
Now, we talked about claims.
25:05
What's up with the marketing, and, how has marketing changed?
25:12
I'm, also leaning into AI here.
25:14
I'm wondering what AI thinks about this whole thing too.
25:18
Oh my God, you know, it's like we have a lot of cast of characters now.
25:22
But the marketing all along, you said something that was so absolutely spot on.
25:29
It just followed where the culture was going.
25:33
And, you know
25:35
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: I mean, cereal companies are not social service agencies
25:38
and they're not public health agencies.
25:41
They're businesses w- with stockholders.
25:43
The four major cereal companies own a huge percentage of the market.
25:49
The main challenger is private labels.
25:52
But you have Kellogg, General Mills, Post, and Quaker.
25:56
Quaker's owned by PepsiCo.
25:58
Kellogg is now split so that some of the cereals went with Mars, one
26:03
candy company, and the rest went with Ferrero, another candy company.
26:08
You know, the maker of Nutella.
26:11
so we'll surely have Nutella cereals if we don't already.
26:15
but these are, this is big food.
26:17
Absolutely big food with a lot of political power and the, and a lot of,
26:24
control of the marketplace with the biggest challenger being these private
26:29
label brands that people are buying more and more of as the prices have gone up.
26:36
So people are buying private labels.
26:38
So marketing is what it's about.
26:41
You want people to buy your cereal repeatedly.
26:45
You wanna get kids to develop brand loyal- loyalty right from the beginning
26:52
so they buy that cereal throughout life.
26:57
you wanna take over the market share of the other big four cereal companies,
27:03
and you can see how they're doing it.
27:05
You look at or, Cheerios, for example.
27:08
There used to be plain, ordinary, run-of-the-mill Cheerios
27:12
in the original yellow box.
27:15
and now there are 20 different varieties, most of them with a lot of sugar in them.
27:21
but they take up a lot of real estate in supermarkets.
27:24
So the rule is the more space they take up, the more people
27:28
buy them because people see them
27:31
Pam Peeke, MD: I think that they spent a lot of money hanging out with Hollywood
27:35
because whenever all of those kids shows showed up and the characters and
27:41
movies and whatever, suddenly, you know, there they were on some cereal box.
27:48
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Yeah.
27:49
I mean, the one
27:50
that I, the one that I like best is Baby Shark cereal.
27:54
Pam Peeke, MD: Oh yeah, definitely.
27:56
I mean, I'm-- I've
27:57
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: that's
27:58
Pam Peeke, MD: sharks
27:58
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: to toddlers.
28:00
Pam Peeke, MD: I know.
28:01
It's like right up there with baby goats,
28:05
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Yeah.
28:06
Yeah.
28:07
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah.
28:07
it's,
28:08
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: yeah.
28:08
So marketing to kids is a big part of it.
28:11
The big bestsellers are kids' sweetened cereals.
28:15
They have cartoons on the packages.
28:18
They have tie-ins with movies, and now the toys are back.
28:21
I thought we got rid of the toys.
28:23
No
28:24
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, I know.
28:24
I was kinda, you know, that takes me back to my Cracker Jack days.
28:28
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh yeah, toys are back.
28:31
Pam Peeke, MD: okay.
28:31
N- now what about fortifications?
28:34
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh, yes.
28:35
Pam Peeke, MD: Oh, yeah.
28:36
Talk to us about fortified with vitamin C, fortified with, and then on and on.
28:43
When did that start showing up?
28:44
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: 16 vitamins and minerals.
28:47
Well, it started during the second…
28:48
I mean, there's a history about this.
28:50
It started during the Second World War when there was a real concern about
28:55
vitamin deficiency syndromes in the United States, pellagra and so forth.
29:02
And lots of people had them.
29:03
And by fortifying the food supply, that was one way to get
29:07
the missing nutrients to people.
29:09
But they were very concerned that, lots and lots of men who signed up to fight
29:15
in the war didn't meet the physical test 'cause they were so badly malnourished.
29:20
So, there was a big push.
29:22
Vitamins had just been discovered.
29:24
So, there was a big push to put vitamins into the food supply, and that was
29:31
when fortification of wheat and flour started with, initially four nutrients.
29:40
Now it's five.
29:41
in 1969…
29:43
I mean, this is where the history is so interesting.
29:46
In 1969, there was a White House conference on food, nutrition, and health.
29:51
And there were recommendations that came out of that conference that fortification
29:57
levels should be increased, and cereals were listed specifically as one of
30:03
the foods that should be fortified.
30:06
The next year, Congress held hearings, a set of hearings specifically
30:12
on the low nutritional quality of breakfast cereals and how they
30:16
needed to have more vitamins added.
30:19
And of course, the cereal companies were deliriously happy with this.
30:25
And so in 1970, practically no cereals were fortified with anything
30:32
other than the original four.
30:36
And two years later, essentially all cereals were fortified, and
30:41
that was when eight added vitamins, 16 added vitamins came in.
30:47
and, you know, they, really caught a break.
30:50
And people go, "So what you're really eating is a vitamin-fortified cookie
30:56
for breakfast," is the way I look at it
30:59
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, a- are those…
31:01
Is the preparation and presentation of those vitamins and minerals,
31:07
What's the bioavailability?
31:09
What's the quality of that?
31:10
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh, hard to know.
31:12
I mean, most vitamins are best obtained from food in
31:16
the food.
31:18
Oh, sorry.
31:19
Sorry, sorry.
31:22
but, you know, I mean, some of it'll be absorbed.
31:25
I don't know how much, but some of it certainly will be.
31:29
do vitamins make healthy people healthier?
31:32
I don't think so.
31:34
there's not much evidence for that.
31:36
But a lot of people think that fortification has made
31:40
an enormous difference in the nutritional health of Americans.
31:44
I'm a little skeptical, but then I tend to be skeptical
31:47
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, or so says Kellogg's and the rest of them.
31:53
just, kind of putting it there.
31:54
But I would imagine if I'm a mother and I'm thinking, you know, my kid's
31:58
a picky eater, he's not having enough vegetables and blah, blah, you know,
32:01
suddenly you have this, you know, one way, like a delivery system.
32:06
Basically, the cereal becomes a delivery system for vitamins and
32:11
minerals that'll keep my kid healthy.
32:13
Doesn't that make sense?
32:15
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: I mean, that's, how the supplement industry has
32:18
convinced everybody to take supplements.
32:21
you're worried that your diet isn't good enough.
32:23
You have no way of checking, and so you're doing a little insurance.
32:28
I mean, the one thing is it's very unlikely that the
32:31
added vitamins are harmful.
32:33
So, you know, I don't worry about them very much.
32:36
But these, some of the cereals have 100% of, you know, what is considered
32:42
to be a recommended daily intake.
32:46
And if they're eating a lot of fortified foods, they're getting
32:50
a lot of vitamins and minerals.
32:52
And one of the things about vitamins is you don't need much.
32:57
I mean, they're needed in very small amounts.
33:01
and it's, there's not a whole lot of evidence that for clinical vitamin
33:06
deficiencies in the United States, except in certain, you know, pregnant women
33:11
and iron, we can argue about that one.
33:14
and you know, other kinds of things.
33:16
But, it's, just not a huge public health problem in the United States.
33:21
But the supplement industry has convinced everybody that their diets
33:25
aren't good enough, and so they should be taking vitamin supplements
33:29
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, I've been fascinated with this whole issue of
33:31
fortification because if you now flash forward to all of the, worried well,
33:37
who are on the longevity journey, okay?
33:41
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Peptides.
33:42
Pe-
33:42
Pam Peeke, MD: themselves, "Huh?
33:43
What?"
33:44
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: peptides.
33:46
Pam Peeke, MD: Oh, stop that now.
33:48
you're so radical.
33:50
so, you know, here we are, we're busy, we got a million things going on.
33:55
Damn it, I missed breakfast.
33:56
Damn it, I missed lunch.
33:58
You know, my, my dinner went to hell.
34:00
I don't know.
34:01
And you say to yourself, "You know, this isn't going well, and, I would
34:05
like to get everything all at one time."
34:07
So we call it a shake or, it could be all kinds of, interesting iterations of
34:15
this for adults, that are just jam-packed with all of these vitamins and nutrients,
34:22
that you've been told are exceptionally important for the longevity journey.
34:28
And you hear this all the time.
34:30
I'm protecting myself by taking-- by spending $80 a month on this
34:36
one particular, you know, drink thing that will give me all of my
34:41
greens for the day, by just sucking this baby down for $80 a month.
34:49
and, people are like, "Okay, that's very convenient, and I don't have
34:54
to worry about going to the grocery store and cutting up celery."
35:02
I mean, isn't that kind of where we're going?
35:04
I see this among my colleagues all the time.
35:07
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh yeah, except it's not $80.
35:10
It's a lot more than that
35:11
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, I'm playing around.
35:12
You know, I was just trying to be kind.
35:14
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: it's a lot, it's a lot more than that.
35:16
Yeah.
35:16
I mean, I think the supplement industry has done a phenomenal job, first of
35:21
all, getting itself deregulated, which happened in 1994, so that there's
35:27
no oversight of what's in those bottles, and you have absolutely no
35:33
way of knowing if what it says on the bottle is what's in the bottle.
35:38
You have no way of knowing if that's correct.
35:41
and of convincing people that, you know, if they don't take supplements,
35:45
they're not gonna be healthy.
35:47
Okay,
35:48
whatever
35:49
Pam Peeke, MD: there's just a belief system, I think.
35:52
I think, like, for me, I absolutely have to have vitamin D supplementation
35:57
'cause I actually have a polymorphism on my, vitamin D receptor and in my body.
36:03
I never knew until I actually had a blood level done a number of years ago,
36:08
and my physician, dear friend, called me immediately and said, this isn't good."
36:17
my vitamin D level was insanely low, and, that's when we did some genetic
36:22
testing, and we figured it out.
36:23
So I have to be maintained on that, and there you have it.
36:28
And, you know, people have, you know, over time discover things.
36:32
I had a- another patient who discovered she has a, a little genetic inheritance
36:39
of a calcium leak in her, kidneys.
36:42
And so she has way too much calcium coming out and running into problems with kidney
36:46
stones and this and that, and, has to watch the calcium levels very closely
36:51
and actually has to be supplemented.
36:54
So I think, you know, what happens is you have to be, huh, careful and thoughtful
37:02
about how a lot of this, goes forward.
37:07
and, you know, look, even Joanne Manson, you know, said that, a
37:13
multivitamin, you know, may be, you know, helpful for a lot of people who
37:18
are just not getting what they need.
37:21
It's one of those things where you just say, you gotta, again,
37:25
be extremely thoughtful."
37:27
But to your point, you know, especially as we look at the
37:31
delivery system, as it were, if your delivery system is a sugar-coated,
37:36
you know, cereal, what the hell?
37:39
You know, what happened?
37:40
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: about gummy bears?
37:41
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, there we go.
37:43
All right?
37:44
I mean, I'm just saying.
37:46
gummy bears, oh, my goodness gracious.
37:48
So then we, jam all kinds of things into those and, oh, it just sort of never ends.
37:55
And you know what really blew me away?
37:57
one of the million things that I was blown away with by reading this fabulous
38:02
book, Sugar Coated, is that Rice Krispies is still the same template.
38:09
It's the same thing.
38:12
It hasn't changed.
38:14
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Not since 1928
38:16
Pam Peeke, MD: Like what the, what, how did they do that?
38:20
That's crazy
38:21
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: I guess it's got an audience that buys it.
38:24
It has customers.
38:26
Everything about this is about whether the cereals sell or not.
38:30
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, it's so fascinating
38:32
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: you know, and from the very beginning, the
38:36
Rice Krispies Treat recipe was on the box almost from day one.
38:41
And people like Rice Krispies Treats
38:46
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, just make those little squares.
38:48
It's just wall-to-wall sugar.
38:50
You know what's interesting?
38:52
I was curious what your thoughts are.
38:55
I think this is a very interesting generational thing.
39:00
I wonder how many boomers are still, you know, devoted to specific brands
39:07
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh.
39:08
Pam Peeke, MD: What do you think?
39:10
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh, there's no question about it.
39:12
I mean, when Lisa and I talk to people about the book,
39:16
everybody has a cereal story.
39:19
You know, everybody who's old enough to have grown up when these sugar-sweetened,
39:25
kid-centered, cartoon-illustrated, games on the back, you know, cereals came in
39:33
targeted to kids, everybody has a story.
39:37
Everybody has a story about fighting with their parents about it.
39:41
Everybody has a story about what their favorite is.
39:45
everybody has a story about how they secretly, that's their midnight snack.
39:52
They're still buying it.
39:54
everybody does.
39:55
I mean, we've heard the most amazing stories about cereals.
40:00
People relate to them really, strongly, in part because of the
40:06
cartoon characters, the Saturday morning television that advertised
40:12
them
40:13
Pam Peeke, MD: and Bullwinkle, come on now
40:14
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: There you go.
40:17
then as kids, they had, you know, serious emotional connections to these characters,
40:24
and here they are on cereal boxes.
40:27
And they're fun and they're, you know, and, it's cereal.
40:30
Cereal has Evo Terra
40:32
Pam Peeke, MD: I wonder, do the millennials do this?
40:35
Do,
40:36
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: to a le- to a lesser extent because
40:39
people are eating less cereal.
40:41
You know, the cereal industry is in trouble.
40:44
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, talk to us
40:45
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: And it's in trouble for five reasons.
40:48
Let me see if I can remember them all.
40:50
The first is Robert F.
40:51
Kennedy Jr.,
40:52
who says that ultra-processed foods are poisoning America.
40:56
Second is GLP-1 drugs, which, are encouraging people not to eat as
41:03
much junk food, so they're not eating as much sugary cereal.
41:08
the whole concern about ultra-processed foods.
41:11
Robert F.
41:12
Kennedy Jr.
41:13
says ultra-processed foods are poisoning America.
41:16
and most, most breakfast cereals, not all, but most of them are ultra-processed.
41:24
What's happening with inflation?
41:26
I can't believe what this stuff costs.
41:30
I'm just astounded.
41:31
I buy the most boring cereal in the world.
41:34
It has one ingredient, wheat.
41:38
I buy either Post's Shredded, Mini Shredded Wheats or
41:42
whatever store brand I can get.
41:45
you know, I buy the store brand because I can't believe what this stuff costs.
41:50
and then the last one is that it turns out that for many young people, getting
41:56
a box off a shelf, pouring the product into a bowl, adding sugar, adding
42:03
milk, adding whatever it is you're gonna add, and having to wash the bowl
42:08
and spoon afterwards, it's too much.
42:12
So they want Pop-Tarts or things that they can eat on the go
42:17
Pam Peeke, MD: They can nuke.
42:18
They can immediately just throw in the waiver and nuke.
42:21
You know, or, you know, look what Starbucks did.
42:24
Look what they offer.
42:25
In addition to sort of egg white burrito things or whatever for breakfast,
42:30
they also have oatmeal in a cup, okay?
42:34
And then they've got a little bit of sugar in there and back and
42:37
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: And a lot of additives of, very
42:39
yummy things you can add.
42:41
It's not a little bit of sugar.
42:44
Pam Peeke, MD: I'm, I was just playing with you.
42:47
no, but they, hopped right on the bandwagon of the, "Hey, they don't
42:50
have time to do anything at night."
42:52
I mean, in the morning when they're running out.
42:55
And quite frankly, raise your hand out there if you've eaten cereal for dinner
43:01
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Oh yeah, sure.
43:03
Pam Peeke, MD: Oh, hell yeah.
43:04
No question about it.
43:06
Well, you know, I was thinking about this whole brand thing and generation,
43:10
so, I interviewed on my podcast Natalie Grabow, and she, made international fame
43:17
when she became the first woman at the age of 80, to successfully complete the
43:24
Kona Ironman Triathlon, in, a year ago
43:29
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Good for
43:30
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, I mean, well, no, it was so cool.
43:32
And everyone out there, you know, just Google Natalie Grabow.
43:37
That's G-R-A-B-O-W.
43:39
And, just look under videos, 'cause by far the reason why this became
43:44
so big was because as she approached the finish line, and for most people
43:50
who don't know Ironman, you have to finish in 17 hours or less.
43:56
If you're like 17:01, no, you don't get the medal, and you don't get
44:01
called an Ironman, and so that can be, like, a serious downer.
44:05
So she was rapidly approaching 17.
44:07
She was about 16:40 or something like that, and as she came up the computer
44:15
carpet, which we all know, I've done triathlon, and, you know, you've got this
44:21
big arch, which is the f- finish line.
44:24
And she came up the damn thing.
44:27
some, so many people had, preceded her, right?
44:32
Because, you know, these are the big winners and the people who
44:34
came in at 12 hours and whatever.
44:36
What-- Somebody had kicked up the carpet a little bit, and she didn't
44:39
see it because it was blackout.
44:42
It was, like, late at night.
44:44
Remember, this is almost 17 hours.
44:47
She never saw it, so she face-planted.
44:50
So she's going, "Oh, no, this was excellent."
44:53
So she goes up.
44:54
She goes, "Whoa!"
44:55
And then she did a really…
44:57
You know, if you're gonna face-plant, do it this way.
45:00
she face-planted, and then she kinda got up.
45:03
And knowing Natalie, who by the way, everyone should know, her
45:07
background is she was a mathematician who worked for Bell South.
45:11
You with me?
45:12
She's m- she thinks more like an engineer.
45:15
She's like black and white, you know?
45:17
And she doesn't spend a lot of time on whining.
45:19
So she put her head up, and she had that look on her face in which I told her.
45:23
You know, during the interview I said, "This is what it looked like.
45:26
'I'm gonna kill the SOB who knocked up this damn carpet.'"
45:30
She just had this hysterical look.
45:32
And then she got right on up and she go, "Okay.
45:35
Now let's just continue this party."
45:37
And went right through the arches and was declared an Ironman.
45:42
I think her time was, like, 16:44, right?
45:45
Maybe some change or something.
45:46
And she immediately entered the Guinness Book of World Records, and
45:50
everyone was, like, clapping around.
45:52
So I couldn't wait to meet her.
45:54
She's up in New Jersey.
45:57
And so I'm talking to her and I'm like, "Hey, Natalie," you know, and I'm kinda
46:00
channeling my inner Marion Nestle.
46:03
And I said, "So dying to know what the hell you eat."
46:07
And, she's, she talks just like us.
46:09
She's really straightforward, black and white, engineer mind.
46:12
You know, and she goes, "Well, I get up in the morning- After I do my stretches
46:17
and a little bit of exercise, but she doesn't do her big training yet.
46:20
She goes, "I'm gonna have my breakfast."
46:22
And I said, "Wow, what are you gonna have for breakfast?"
46:24
You know, and at first I was thinking, you know, she's gonna have like some
46:27
special green shake with 900 weird things in it, threw in chia seeds and flax seed.
46:34
And it's like I'm waiting to listen, yeah.
46:36
And she didn't say anything like that.
46:37
She goes, "Oh, I'll have my Cheerios."
46:40
I said, "Excuse me?"
46:42
She goes, "Yeah, I'll have my Cheerio.
46:44
But wait a minute, they're super healthy.
46:46
I put blueberries on them."
46:48
I'm talking to an 80-year-old, you know, triathlete.
46:52
And I'm like, o- okay.
46:54
Well, well, what do you have as a backup?
46:59
Don't you ever get kind of bored with Cheerios and blueberries?"
47:02
She go, "Oh, of course I do.
47:04
I have a backup."
47:06
And I said, "Well, please help me with that.
47:08
What is it?"
47:09
She goes, "Frosted Mini-Wheats."
47:13
There she is with a body fat of like 17%
47:19
and, it just, I mean, she's rocking it.
47:21
So what that told me was, you know something?
47:24
First of all, she's an elite exerciser.
47:27
So, I mean, she's an elite athlete.
47:29
And so y- you could probably get away with a little bit more because, you know,
47:34
her body's like, "No, screw this stuff."
47:36
You know, "I'm just gonna metabolize it and let's just get on with it."
47:40
But I was loving her even more after she told me the, whole thing.
47:45
And then the rest of the day is very healthy.
47:47
You know, it's just like vegetables and protein and da, and she's a,
47:52
you know, she's a petite person, and so she doesn't need a whole lot
47:56
of food 'cause she doesn't need it.
47:57
You know, as you age, you need fewer calories, and you and I
48:01
both know that.
48:02
I know, really.
48:03
It's like I keep telling my body, "Would you just come along with
48:08
me, you know, when I'm telling you to eat fewer calories?"
48:10
But anyway, I just thought that was really cool and as I was reading the Cheerios
48:15
pieces, I just kept flashing back on the look on my face when she said, "Cheerios."
48:21
She's like,
48:22
"But they're healthy.
48:23
I have blue- blueberries on them."
48:26
You know, just make it healthier.
48:28
You know?
48:29
And so there's no big secret here.
48:32
I just absolutely love this thing.
48:35
And the fact that, you were able to catalog and I was able to follow along,
48:41
and I ke- you know what I'm gonna do?
48:43
What I did was I kept thinking, "Where was I in that year?
48:48
How old was I?
48:50
What was going on in that year?"
48:52
And as all of you out there read this fabulous book, Sugar
48:57
Coated, do the same thing.
48:59
It's really a mindblower to say, "Wow, I got sucked down that vortex of you know,
49:06
believing that, you know, fortifying with 65 things I never even heard of before was
49:12
gonna be okay, and I paid money for that.
49:15
I don't know.
49:16
Maybe I should think about this a little more thoughtfully."
49:20
And that's why I absolutely love this book, and that is, you know, it
49:26
really help fill in gaps in my own knowledge about what I was putting
49:33
in my mouth all of those years.
49:36
all I can do is just be thankful that a lot of the sugar coating, you know,
49:42
actually took place, after I was really already entrenched at Berkeley and hanging
49:48
out at the co-op and kinda doing muesli more than anything else, and my oatmeal.
49:54
You know, it's interesting.
49:54
Oatmeal became my go-to, and it has to this day.
50:00
So to your point about brand recognition, you know, it's that comfort of
50:05
knowing that I- I've always done that oatmeal thing, when I feel like it.
50:10
It's more like a, a winter thing for me now more than anything else.
50:15
When yogurt first showed up, I think it was a game-changer for a
50:19
lot of people because I think they pivoted to that instead of cereal.
50:24
What do you think?
50:27
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: some don't.
50:28
I mean, everyb- everybody has a story about it, and I loved hearing the stories
50:34
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, you know, I, to me it was convenience.
50:37
It was like just open that little top, throw on my walnuts, rock and roll.
50:43
I could, you know, do dashboard dining, you know?
50:45
You know, I got my little plastic spoon and I'm doing
50:49
this at red lights, you know?
50:52
I mean, you know, we, all hack the system and make it work.
50:56
This is absolutely fabulous.
50:59
All I can do is say thank you, Marion, for writing this incredible
51:06
book, that I am so asking everyone out there to run out and buy.
51:12
It's called Sugar Coated, 'cause it's gonna blow your
51:15
mind.
51:15
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: it up again
51:17
Pam Peeke, MD: Hold it up again.
51:18
Woo-hoo.
51:19
There she is.
51:20
Beautiful.
51:20
Wait a minute.
51:21
hold on.
51:22
I wanna get a little…
51:23
Hold on now, 'cause this is…
51:25
Oh, there we are.
51:28
Beautiful.
51:28
I love it.
51:29
I absolutely love it.
51:31
And I'm so glad you reunited with your co-author, because as a
51:35
fellow author, it's a nightmare,
51:40
trying to, get things to work and it…
51:42
And people think, "Oh, yeah, come up with an idea, and, like, within
51:46
three weeks you've got a proposal and you're off and wr-" No.
51:49
No.
51:49
That's not the way this wor- It may work for somebody, but not
51:53
for me, and not for you for sure.
51:55
It's, a much more thoughtful process.
51:58
Well, all I can say is thank you, Marion, and I cannot wait to have you
52:03
back on the HER Podcast once again.
52:07
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH: Thank you.
52:07
Glad to be here
52:09
Pam Peeke, MD: Of course.
52:10
And now I also wanna thank my wonderful, sponsor, SkinSafe.
52:15
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52:56
Know what you're putting on your skin.
52:58
And now please take a moment and leave us one of those wonderful, thoughts and
53:07
feedback and reviews 'cause we love that.
53:11
And this has been a production of Podcast Health.
53:15
I'm gonna leave you with a little thought, which I love to do, and
53:19
this one's from one of my favorites.
53:21
Her name is Edith Wharton.
53:23
"There are two ways of spreading light.
53:26
Be the candle or the mirror that reflects it."
53:30
Marion, I think you're both.
53:32
I'm just throwing it out there.
53:34
Now, come on now.
53:35
Get out there.
53:36
Carpe diem, seize the day.
53:38
And thanks for listening, everyone