Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / Blood Sugar Spikes, Carb Myths, GLP-1s, and Fat Loss Tips from a Type 1 Diabetic (Ben Tzeel) | Ep 343

Transcript

Blood Sugar Spikes, Carb Myths, GLP-1s, and Fat Loss Tips from a Type 1 Diabetic (Ben Tzeel) | Ep 343 · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:01
  Philip Pape: If you're avoiding carbs because you're afraid of blood sugar spikes, you're training fasted because someone said it burns more fat, or you think insulin is a problem, is the enemy of fat loss, but you're still dealing with energy crashes, inconsistent performance, you don't have the fat loss results you want for the effort you're putting in, then this episode is for you.
• 0:19
  Philip Pape: Today, my guest, who has been managing type 1 diabetes for 25 years, has learned a lot about metabolism, insulin and body composition, and he is going to clarify some of those topics carb timing, insulin sensitivity, fat loss that the industry often gets wrong.
• 0:34
  Philip Pape: So listen in tune in, because you're going to learn a ton about blood sugar, carbs and fasting that will help you focus your efforts to optimize your metabolism and finally get the results you want.
• 0:44
  Philip Pape: Will help you focus your efforts to optimize your metabolism and finally get the results you want.
• 0:49
  Philip Pape: Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.
• 0:55
  Philip Pape: I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to discuss how someone living with type 1 diabetes has developed strategies that are going to help you help everyone when it comes to building muscle, optimizing health.
• 1:08
  Philip Pape: Some of these are going to be counterintuitive.
• 1:10
  Philip Pape: Yes, we're going to get into carbs and blood sugar and some of the hot topics, because they are important.
• 1:15
  Philip Pape: My guest is Ben Zeal, a registered dietitian, certified diabetes educator and certified strength coach, who was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at age 7.
• 1:25
  Philip Pape: And rather than letting this limit him, he's built a successful practice called your Diabetes Insider and helps thousands of people with diabetes live unrestricted lives while maintaining excellent blood sugar control, which is an amazing thing, because I definitely get that sense of frustration and sometimes hopelessness from individuals who feel like their medical history and their genetics are holding them back in some way.
• 1:49
  Philip Pape: Ben's got over 25 years of personal experience, advanced credentials in nutrition and strength training.
• 1:55
  Philip Pape: He's tested every approach, from high carb to low carb to intermittent fasting, and it's developed a hybrid approach that optimizes muscle building and glycemic control.
• 2:04
  Philip Pape: Developed a hybrid approach that optimizes muscle building and glycemic control.
• 2:08
  Philip Pape: So today I think you're going to learn a lot about myths like CGMs how useful are they, how to use them, how to navigate the carb confusion based on the evidence.
• 2:14
  Philip Pape: His tips on building muscle while managing blood sugar to help you go after gains whether you have diabetes or not.
• 2:21
  Philip Pape: With that, ben, welcome to the show.
• 2:24
  Ben Tzeel: I am so excited to be here and that was honestly the nicest intro anyone's ever done, so thank you.
• 2:29
  Philip Pape: Well, I appreciate that man and it's well-deserved.
• 2:31
  Philip Pape: We were talking before, we were recording how we connected and we haven't had someone talk about diabetes specifically on the show, especially who has lived it.
• 2:40
  Philip Pape: There is a lifter out there.
• 2:41
  Philip Pape: She's called the Canadian Forklift.
• 2:43
  Philip Pape: You know Jessica Bittner, which I'd love to have.
• 2:46
  Ben Tzeel: I don't know, I don't know.
• 2:48
  Ben Tzeel: I know who she is and she's.
• 2:49
  Ben Tzeel: I mean, my God, I'm like I would love to be just in remotely that stratosphere.
• 2:53
  Ben Tzeel: Yeah.
• 2:54
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, no, but it's inspired because, like in our Facebook group, when I hear from clients no, mainly people who haven't worked with me yet and you'll hear that sense of like, well, because I have diabetes, I can't X, y, z and I want to bust some of those today with you.
• 3:08
  Philip Pape: So let's get into it.
• 3:09
  Philip Pape: Let's start with blood sugar in general, because there's some science and mechanisms behind this, how the body works, and I guess I would say if there's one thing everyone could understand about blood sugar, what would that be?
• 3:20
  Ben Tzeel: Oh man, this is such a good question too.
• 3:22
  Ben Tzeel: I feel like it's tough right, because I feel like, as a person with diabetes, it's obviously a different perspective, because I'm over here thinking, well, I have to stay in range, or at least relatively in range the majority of the time, but someone without diabetes, you've got all the hysteria but the fascination with what's my glucose right now.
• 3:38
  Ben Tzeel: So the biggest thing is to not overreact to the blips that you see with blood sugars, and a perfect example of this would be I one time it was probably three, four years ago went out to breakfast with one of my friends.
• 3:49
  Ben Tzeel: He was a dietician as well and he doesn't have diabetes, and so I figured you know what, let's see what happens.
• 3:54
  Ben Tzeel: You're wearing a CGM, you got a CGM from your healthcare provider, whoever it was.
• 3:58
  Ben Tzeel: Let's compare, let's eat the same pancakes, let's see what happens.
• 4:02
  Ben Tzeel: And it was hilarious.
• 4:03
  Ben Tzeel: Of course, as a person with diabetes, I'm going to see more of a rise just because it was carbs and it was a good amount.
• 4:07
  Ben Tzeel: These were chocolate chip pancakes that we didn't hold back, we had just lifted, and my blood sugar went up probably 160, 170.
• 4:13
  Ben Tzeel: His blood sugar I absolutely I cannot make this up 94.
• 4:18
  Ben Tzeel: He went from like 85 to 94.
• 4:21
  Ben Tzeel: And he's oh my God, I went up nine points and I'm thinking, man, I would love to go up nine points eating some chocolate chip pancakes.
• 4:27
  Ben Tzeel: So I think a lot of people, especially without diabetes, they see these changes in the graph like oh my goodness, my blood sugar just spiked.
• 4:33
  Ben Tzeel: But you have to really put it in perspective.
• 4:35
  Ben Tzeel: Was it a substantial enough spike to really warrant any sort of concern?
• 4:39
  Philip Pape: Yeah, no.
• 4:40
  Philip Pape: So let's talk about that.
• 4:41
  Philip Pape: Do people without?
• 4:42
  Philip Pape: So we're kind of covering two populations here, but do people have to be concerned based on the range that they sit at with a baseline, or based on the variance?
• 4:51
  Philip Pape: Who should even measure this?
• 4:54
  Ben Tzeel: Oh, it's tough.
• 4:54
  Ben Tzeel: And so I think, if we're going diabetes specific first, just Google kind of, you know, parse it out Diabetes specific first, I would say it's more of the time that you are in range, right.
• 5:03
  Ben Tzeel: So the standard for a Dexcom Pacific first, I would say it's more of the time that you are in range, right.
• 5:06
  Ben Tzeel: So the standard for a Dexcom, which I would consider the gold standard for CGM, is typically, on default, 70 to 180.
• 5:09
  Ben Tzeel: If you tell me you're 80%, 85% in range, you're doing awesome, because as people with diabetes, you're probably not going to be 100% in range unless you're just straight up not eating or you have everything just completely perfect and all you do is diabetes in your life, which is not realistic.
• 5:24
  Ben Tzeel: But for people without diabetes I would say I mean it's tough right, because yes, you want to stay in a controlled range and ideally you don't ever want to go above 130, 140 if possible, and that would mean you ate a lot of carbs in one sitting and did not do anything to insulin sensitize yourself.
• 5:40
  Ben Tzeel: So I think the biggest thing is variability matters, I think range matters, but I think time within the range, and if you don't have diabetes, the smaller the range the better, no-transcript.
• 6:13
  Ben Tzeel: Go without food for a second.
• 6:14
  Ben Tzeel: What can you do outside of food to get your body in a prime position to be able to absorb the carbs and the sugar that's within the blood, right?
• 6:21
  Ben Tzeel: And so, of course, there's two main ways the body can do it.
• 6:28
  Ben Tzeel: There's insulin, right, of course, and then there's also with physical activity, using the calcium channels.
• 6:31
  Ben Tzeel: You can basically do the same mechanism but not have insulin involved.
• 6:34
  Ben Tzeel: So people like oh, if I take a walk after I eat, my blood sugar doesn't go as high because you've now started allowing your muscle to take up that glucose from the blood without doing anything else, and so that's what I typically refer to.
• 6:45
  Ben Tzeel: So if I tell people hey, you're very active, you're walking, you're lifting, whatever you might be doing, that's going to put you in a prime position to have a little more variability and wiggle room, so your number may not spike as high depending on what types of carbs you're eating.
• 6:57
  Ben Tzeel: So that's typically my primary way, I would say, from an insulin sensitivity standpoint.
• 7:07
  Philip Pape: Nailed it.
• 7:08
  Philip Pape: There we go Cool, nice.
• 7:08
  Philip Pape: So walking and lifting and muscle are some of the phrases you mentioned, and there's confusion around how that works.
• 7:11
  Philip Pape: So I often use colloquial language here, for two reasons.
• 7:14
  Philip Pape: One is hey, I don't know all the science at any one time out of my head, and number two is that's what people understand as analogies, right?
• 7:20
  Philip Pape: So the idea that the bigger your muscles, the more they can hold and store in terms of glucose, as well as the more active you are, the more you shuttle those nutrients.
• 7:30
  Philip Pape: You talked about calcium channels, so maybe break it down when you walk.
• 7:34
  Philip Pape: Just in that moment, what is happening?
• 7:36
  Ben Tzeel: So basically, in a nutshell, just imagine that there's these gates, right, and you have to have a certain molecule attached to a gate, and there's four gates or a combination lock, whichever one's easier for you to imagine, and basically you just have to turn the lock to have each of the things in the code go, you know, get open, and once you do one, two, three, four, boom, it's open and the glucose can come in.
• 7:54
  Ben Tzeel: So it's that simple and at that point, because you're walking and you're in motion, these gates will stay open, they'll continue sucking up glucose into the cell, pulling it out of the blood, and that allows your blood sugar to either not rise as high or, you know, in the case of someone whose blood sugar might be already high at baseline, to bring it down.
• 8:13
  Philip Pape: Awesome.
• 8:13
  Philip Pape: And does being sedentary have an amplifying negative effect?
• 8:16
  Philip Pape: And by that I mean, is it simply?
• 8:18
  Philip Pape: This is an important question, right?
• 8:20
  Philip Pape: Is it simply not giving you the benefit of walking, or is it amplifying the worsening of that effect of not using insulin?
• 8:28
  Ben Tzeel: Oh man, I love these questions.
• 8:30
  Ben Tzeel: These are the things that I always wish people ask, but I never get asked.
• 8:32
  Ben Tzeel: So I think it's.
• 8:34
  Ben Tzeel: I think it's both right.
• 8:35
  Ben Tzeel: I think if somebody's body is used to a certain amount of activity at baseline and I've seen this in myself, I've seen this with patients all the time where, let let's say, your body's used to 8000 steps per day and today you just decided to hang out, have a lazy day, Netflix, whatever you are going to see that negative impact because your body is already used to a certain baseline and you're not even close to approaching that.
• 8:56
  Ben Tzeel: So you might notice insulin resistance just because you're not moving, compared to your norm.
• 9:00
  Ben Tzeel: So I think there's that aspect of things where you're not giving your body what it wants.
• 9:04
  Ben Tzeel: You start walking, your insulin sensitivity goes back, your blood sugar goes right back in the range.
• 9:08
  Ben Tzeel: It is absolutely unreal how specific that is and I've seen it with myself and many, many, many people.
• 9:14
  Ben Tzeel: But I also think just that baseline in general, if you're not moving, it's not doing you any favors and that doesn't mean you need to be in perpetual motion on a treadmill or a walking pad, but I think your body really appreciates.
• 9:25
  Ben Tzeel: Our bodies are meant to move right.
• 9:26
  Ben Tzeel: Our body needs to stay in motion.
• 9:28
  Philip Pape: Loves to move, loves to lift, loves to be functional and active in the world.
• 9:31
  Philip Pape: And so, when you think of someone with diabetes like yourself, I've heard the claim and maybe it's true, right that the walking after meals is as effective, or more than metformin right Than a diabetes medication.
• 9:43
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts on that?
• 9:44
  Philip Pape: Like, how can diabetics actually can they manage to an extent where they can limit or eliminate some of their pharmacology from their lifestyle?
• 9:52
  Philip Pape: How important is all this for that?
• 9:54
  Ben Tzeel: Well, I would joke that I'm married to a pharmacist but I'm not the pharmacist so I can't answer completely right.
• 9:58
  Ben Tzeel: But what I would say is, from an efficacy standpoint, walking after meals or really any sort of light activity post meal can do absolute wonders.
• 10:07
  Ben Tzeel: You just can't expect it to do all of the heavy lifting metaphorically of the medication.
• 10:11
  Ben Tzeel: So, for example, if someone's on insulin or if I'm on insulin and I go out to dinner and I know okay, I had a ton of carbs, I'm going to walk after this meal, it will definitely blunt the ability for my blood sugar to keep rising.
• 10:22
  Ben Tzeel: But then if I walk for 10 or 15 minutes when I stop moving, if my blood sugar was going to keep going, it's going to keep going up, like it's not just going to completely stop and oh, everything's perfect now, but also it depends on the duration you're walking and a bunch of other factors.
• 10:36
  Philip Pape: That's good to know.
• 10:37
  Philip Pape: So it's a matter of degrees and again, that reinforces why you need to measure that when it's a concern for you and when it's not.
• 10:43
  Philip Pape: It sounds like just being active and lifting could probably be enough.
• 10:47
  Philip Pape: I mean, I don't measure my, I've never measured my blood glucose and I don't plan to because you know, I kind of understand the science that you're talking about and I've had guests on who are big advocates for it and one of the reasons they say it's helpful for non-diabetics maybe is to see the results of your food balancing right, like when you balance your macros, or having enough protein, fats along with the carbs.
• 11:08
  Philip Pape: How important is food balance and blood sugar management from that perspective?
• 11:14
  Ben Tzeel: I would say food balance, diabetes or not, food balance is going to be imperative.
• 11:18
  Ben Tzeel: And, like you're saying right, if somebody's hey, my macros are being hit and I'm one of the people who's more liberal I don't care how you do it, as long as you do it.
• 11:26
  Ben Tzeel: You can break the protein up and you know certain amounts, whatever fits in your life.
• 11:30
  Ben Tzeel: But if you want intermittent fast, go for it.
• 11:31
  Ben Tzeel: You want to be lower carb, go for it.
• 11:33
  Ben Tzeel: If you hit your numbers, you hit your numbers.
• 11:35
  Ben Tzeel: But from a blood sugar standpoint, I will say having fat and protein at meals will help with not spiking quite as high as you possibly could.
• 11:42
  Ben Tzeel: But on on the flip side, there's people who and I don't advocate for this way of eating but there's people in diabetes land who will basically just eat carbs, nothing else, just carbs.
• 11:51
  Ben Tzeel: No, basically no fat, basically no protein, and their blood sugars are just fine because there's no potential for anything to slow down digestion, anything to induce insulin resistance.
• 12:00
  Ben Tzeel: So there's these different camps and within diabetes land too, you get the people on the low carb side.
• 12:05
  Ben Tzeel: So I think everyone always asks what's the best way to eat with it, and I don't think there's necessarily a perfect method or we would all do it, but on the flip side, I think that from a food standpoint, you have to have balance within it, otherwise you're going to spike more than you want to.
• 12:19
  Philip Pape: Okay, and then to extend that, very interesting, you talk about the like only carb approach.
• 12:28
  Philip Pape: I feel bad for those guys because, as much as I love carbs, I got to have my protein when you're lifting.
• 12:31
  Philip Pape: But it does bring up the restriction in the extreme camps and the reasons people do diets which are often, I'll say, flawed, and I it saddens me because if you're going to do something, it should be intentional for a purpose, and if you're doing it for the wrong purpose, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot.
• 12:44
  Philip Pape: The big one is just cutting carbs for X, y, z, right.
• 12:49
  Philip Pape: Cutting carbs to lose weight?
• 12:50
  Philip Pape: No, that's energy balance.
• 12:51
  Philip Pape: Cutting carbs because we think it's going to cause more fat storage, that's a whole topic about, again, insulin sensitivity and the flawed hypothesis related to fat burning versus glucose.
• 13:01
  Philip Pape: It's just two energy systems that you know.
• 13:03
  Philip Pape: It all balances out.
• 13:03
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts then on someone on diabetes who doesn't quite understand this and is afraid of carbs?
• 13:09
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts on that?
• 13:11
  Ben Tzeel: So my first thing is I give them an ice cream sundae.
• 13:13
  Ben Tzeel: No, I'm totally kidding, but my thing with that is here's a pizza.
• 13:17
  Ben Tzeel: First of all, pizza is like the biggest nightmare for most people with diabetes.
• 13:21
  Ben Tzeel: We fix it, but something I would say is somebody who's nervous.
• 13:24
  Ben Tzeel: It happens all the time because you get this dysfunctional relationship with food, because everyone says you can't have this, you can't have this, you can't have this, which does not serve anybody.
• 13:32
  Ben Tzeel: I'm always trying to figure out.
• 13:33
  Ben Tzeel: My team's always trying to figure out where does this come from?
• 13:35
  Ben Tzeel: Where does this stem from?
• 13:36
  Ben Tzeel: Was it one bad incident?
• 13:37
  Ben Tzeel: Was it one care provider early on in your diabetes career?
• 13:40
  Ben Tzeel: If we're going to call it that, that may have led you astray.
• 13:43
  Ben Tzeel: And then, from there, how can we challenge this?
• 13:45
  Ben Tzeel: Because I'm not asking you to eat a whole pizza, but we also can't have you concerned about a bowl of Cheetos that's next to you because you're concerned about what it's going to do to your blood sugar.
• 13:53
  Ben Tzeel: So at the end of the day, it's going to be hey.
• 13:55
  Ben Tzeel: How can we get you to slowly break out of this comfort zone?
• 13:57
  Ben Tzeel: If it's something that you're interested, that will work for your blood sugar management?
• 14:02
  Ben Tzeel: Because, to a degree.
• 14:03
  Ben Tzeel: Are carbs needed?
• 14:04
  Ben Tzeel: We could debate that and that's a fun.
• 14:06
  Ben Tzeel: I love that topic in general but you don't necessarily need carbs if you live with diabetes.
• 14:11
  Ben Tzeel: But a lot of people feel better, and so to me I'm like, if you can have a less restrictive life, you already have enough things going on with diabetes.
• 14:17
  Ben Tzeel: Let's make it less restrictive but also be able to still balance your blood sugar.
• 14:22
  Ben Tzeel: I don't see any problem with it.
• 14:22
  Ben Tzeel: So slow, steady exposure, I think, will be what ultimately saves it.
• 14:26
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and that sounds sustainable to me.
• 14:27
  Philip Pape: Um, so then let's tie this all back to lifting, which we alluded to a little bit, but one of my favorite topics, uh, specifically your approach to training that makes the most sense for building muscle from a blood management perspective.
• 14:41
  Philip Pape: And if the answer is look just any training approach that's effective to build muscle and strength is is all you need.
• 14:47
  Philip Pape: But where I'm going with this is there's some, I understand, there's some science around blood sugar management, insulin sensitivity, with the training session itself, the, the stimulus, recovery, adaptation, inflammation, post-training and then the fact that you have this tissue on your frame and like is it more important to focus on neuromuscular strength versus hypertrophy?
• 15:08
  Philip Pape: You know like I'm giving you a lot here, but it's also a blank canvas, so go for it.
• 15:14
  Ben Tzeel: Oh man, these are like the types of questions that make me wish that I had stuck with the PhD I was doing for a while.
• 15:19
  Ben Tzeel: I was doing that before I became a dietician.
• 15:21
  Ben Tzeel: I was like I'm going to go get a PhD and only study diabetes and macronutrient composition and body composition, and I would have been doing exactly what you're describing.
• 15:28
  Ben Tzeel: And then I was like I'm going to be a dietician, I like people.
• 15:31
  Ben Tzeel: So, that being said, with all of these questions, I would say from a training perspective, it all kind of folds into itself right, because, like you said, having more muscle at baseline ideally means more insulin sensitivity, easier for the muscle to have the ability to bring glucose into the cell.
• 15:45
  Ben Tzeel: Everybody is happier that way.
• 15:47
  Ben Tzeel: But at the same time, from a training perspective, if you train at all, there's potentially up to a 72-hour window of increased insulin sensitivity, depending on your level of training.
• 15:56
  Ben Tzeel: Now, someone like me I've trained for I don't know more than half my life, so at that point I'm probably not getting a 72-hour boost, I'm probably getting it closer to a 24-hour boost, but it's still something.
• 16:06
  Ben Tzeel: So my first step is for most people they're not doing anything.
• 16:09
  Ben Tzeel: Hey, let's get you started working out with something that you like.
• 16:12
  Ben Tzeel: I don't really care what it is, preferably there's resistance training a few times a week, but as you really start getting getting into the weeds, how can we get you from a hypertrophy standpoint and then some of the muscular endurance standpoint?
• 16:23
  Ben Tzeel: I think a combination of those two.
• 16:24
  Ben Tzeel: It doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't be any sort of, you know, linear, undulating periodization, but something of that nature where we can get both.
• 16:31
  Ben Tzeel: We get the best of both worlds, where, hey, there's going to be muscle on your frame but also you have the ability, if you decide to go, you know, do some sort of crazy 20 rep set, you can still get through it and still get the benefits from an insulin sensitivity standpoint, cause for hours later you're going to be especially the first 12 hours you're going to be more sensitive.
• 16:48
  Philip Pape: Nice and are you an advocate of bulking cutting?
• 16:50
  Philip Pape: You know you prefer people to stay at maintenance and do it slowly.
• 16:53
  Philip Pape: Does it matter?
• 16:54
  Philip Pape: Like it's preference?
• 16:55
  Ben Tzeel: I think it matters where your blood sugar control is.
• 16:57
  Ben Tzeel: First, because in my mind I don't really want you doing anything crazy until I know your numbers are not going to look like the Rocky Mountains, because otherwise, at the end of the day, you know when your blood sugar is higher, everything's just is more dysfunctional because your blood literally moves slower to the body.
• 17:12
  Ben Tzeel: It's like syrup instead of normal blood flow.
• 17:13
  Ben Tzeel: So that's not going to help you with recovery.
• 17:15
  Ben Tzeel: And then with low blood sugars you can't train.
• 17:17
  Ben Tzeel: So if your blood sugar is constantly bouncing, we got to stabilize that first.
• 17:20
  Ben Tzeel: Ideally, if somebody's eating too little and their metabolic rate is slow, fix that at the same time.
• 17:25
  Ben Tzeel: Then say, okay, now let's go, body comp, let's go.
• 17:28
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I'm a big advocate of that as well Priming your body for success in a maintenance mode where you're not stressing it out with these other things.
• 17:35
  Philip Pape: So once you've got that in place, tying it back to carbs, do you find people does it make a difference when folks like really throw in the carbs into their diet and they're trying to build muscle, or do you find that it's very personal?
• 17:48
  Ben Tzeel: I find it tends to be more energy balance focus and protein focus.
• 17:51
  Ben Tzeel: But what I will say is, from a carb perspective, if you're trying to lift heavier, of course you and I both know it's going to be like rocket fuel.
• 17:57
  Ben Tzeel: So you tell someone who's eating 80 grams of carbs per day oh hey, we're, we're going to slowly up at.
• 18:04
  Ben Tzeel: Oh, now you're at 160.
• 18:05
  Ben Tzeel: And suddenly they're deadlifting more than they've ever done and they're feeling amazing.
• 18:07
  Ben Tzeel: That's probably just a function of the carbs, but from a carb standpoint I don't really feel like it's 100% necessary, like I've done.
• 18:13
  Ben Tzeel: Like you mentioned earlier in the intro, I've gone all the way down to 40 grams of carbs per day.
• 18:17
  Ben Tzeel: I think I was eating 3,300 at maintenance and I was still lifting heavy and it was rough but I could still do it.
• 18:22
  Ben Tzeel: And then, on the flip side, I've gone all the way up to close to 500 per day and it was great.
• 18:26
  Ben Tzeel: Lifting was great.
• 18:27
  Ben Tzeel: My blood sugars, on the other hand, not as amazing.
• 18:30
  Ben Tzeel: At the time I was also in college, so different conversation, but it's definitely possible.
• 18:35
  Philip Pape: Yeah, it's good to understand that the experimentation you went through itself is the missing piece for a lot of folks, in my opinion, in that, like I think of clients who start with me, and I think of one in particular who was afraid of carbs and wanted to work with me just to eat more carbs.
• 18:51
  Philip Pape: He doesn't have diabetes, but my answer to a question would be a question like why don't you try it and let me know?
• 18:56
  Philip Pape: Because at the end of the day, that's all you can tell.
• 18:58
  Philip Pape: So it sounds like when you get the blood sugar managed properly, when you're eating in a balanced way, when you've got some reasonable targets for your performance, for your activity, you can then start to tweak the dials right and push one way or the other and see, and that sounds like a nice, safe approach to do it, even if you are a little bit fearful at first, because you've proved to yourself right through the data where you're at.
• 19:20
  Philip Pape: So what kind of data, what kind of metrics do you like to track?
• 19:23
  Ben Tzeel: So, of course, blood sugars right.
• 19:25
  Ben Tzeel: For most, most of the people that come to our practice, they have a continuous glucose monitor or they have some way to measure their blood sugar consistent.
• 19:31
  Ben Tzeel: So that's that's going to be imperative because, again, everything in my world and our world, you know, branches out from that.
• 19:37
  Ben Tzeel: But I would say total macros are going to be massive as well.
• 19:40
  Ben Tzeel: And especially, you know the calories and the protein.
• 19:46
  Ben Tzeel: And, for our sake, we look at the carbs simply as a function of how do they relate to the blood sugars?
• 19:48
  Ben Tzeel: Because, again, if someone comes in and they're eating 400 carbs a day, I'm not going to suddenly cut them to 200.
• 19:51
  Ben Tzeel: I'm not going to increase it either.
• 19:53
  Ben Tzeel: I want to get an idea of okay, if we have this here, are your numbers any more steady now that you're paying closer attention?
• 19:58
  Ben Tzeel: And then, from a training perspective, okay, how many days per week are you training?
• 20:02
  Ben Tzeel: What's your intensity of your training?
• 20:03
  Ben Tzeel: I like when people track the numbers.
• 20:06
  Ben Tzeel: Not everybody does.
• 20:07
  Ben Tzeel: Everyone's got a different commitment to activity and you know this only too well.
• 20:10
  Ben Tzeel: But if I can get that data too, I love it.
• 20:13
  Ben Tzeel: We'll look at labs, we'll look at the whole picture as much as we can, but typically from a diabetes standpoint, can we look at the food?
• 20:18
  Ben Tzeel: Can we look at the blood sugars?
• 20:20
  Ben Tzeel: How do they interlink?
• 20:21
  Ben Tzeel: And then, ultimately, what decisions can we make based on this?
• 20:24
  Philip Pape: Cool and you mentioned labs.
• 20:25
  Philip Pape: So what?
• 20:25
  Philip Pape: What are you looking at there for blood work?
• 20:27
  Ben Tzeel: So of course, a1c cause that's going to be technically the you know the average of the blood sugar over the last three months a little more complicated, but generally the gist that one's going to be a big one.
• 20:36
  Ben Tzeel: We do like thyroid because for two reasons.
• 20:38
  Ben Tzeel: One, and especially in type one diabetes land, where it's almost like a buy one, get one free for autoimmune disorders, thyroid tends to be one of the ones that goes, and so we like to keep just an eye on that to ensure that that's not getting out of hand.
• 20:48
  Ben Tzeel: And you know we don't prescribe but we'll tell people.
• 20:51
  Ben Tzeel: Hey, we see this.
• 20:51
  Ben Tzeel: Maybe consider talking to your doc about this, your endocrinologist or PCP, whoever those Two of the big ones.
• 20:57
  Ben Tzeel: We'll look at the CBC, cmp, all the lipids, just to make sure everything's behaving itself, and every now and then there's something that's off, but it's nothing typically wild.
• 21:06
  Ben Tzeel: And for some of the men, especially as men get older, we do like to look at the testosterone, similar with women.
• 21:12
  Ben Tzeel: We'll look at the estrogen because that can have a pretty big impact on blood sugar as well, especially as those levels start to decline.
• 21:18
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, makes total sense.
• 21:19
  Philip Pape: So then, like with the A1C, another thought that came to mind is the correlation between that and what are the biggest factors?
• 21:26
  Philip Pape: Right, and I know, just simply managing your weight and body fat.
• 21:29
  Philip Pape: You know, people are always surprised to learn how much of an impact that does have.
• 21:32
  Philip Pape: Independent of everything else.
• 21:33
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts on, like, the two or three biggest hitters for A1C?
• 21:37
  Ben Tzeel: I would say the first one for A1C, I think far and away is is your?
• 21:40
  Ben Tzeel: If you're on insulin, is your dosing on point?
• 21:42
  Ben Tzeel: If you're not on insulin, is your medication on point?
• 21:45
  Ben Tzeel: Because without that, at baseline right, you're going to be already behind the eight ball.
• 21:49
  Ben Tzeel: And I don't care if someone's the best carb counter in the world, if your insulin to carb ratio is wrong, it's not going to matter.
• 21:54
  Ben Tzeel: Your blood sugar is going to be all over the place.
• 21:55
  Ben Tzeel: So that you know dosing mixed with carb counting and, technically, protein and fat counting, that's always far and away number one.
• 22:03
  Ben Tzeel: I would say number two would be the activity side of things, because with that I remember vividly, there was one patient usually trains like four or five days a week and he, for whatever reason, for two weeks just didn't train.
• 22:12
  Ben Tzeel: His blood sugar average went up 15 points just from not training.
• 22:15
  Ben Tzeel: Ate the same, everything else the same, just went up 15 points, which in A1C world that's going to be almost a half a point or a little more than half.
• 22:24
  Ben Tzeel: That's a substantial difference, especially from a long-term complication risk.
• 22:27
  Ben Tzeel: So that's going to always be number two.
• 22:28
  Ben Tzeel: And then number three for A1C believe it or not, stress, stress will wreck you, absolutely wreck you.
• 22:36
  Philip Pape: Yeah, you mentioned stress.
• 22:37
  Philip Pape: Isn't that the common denominator with everything, literally?
• 22:40
  Philip Pape: You mentioned stress.
• 22:40
  Philip Pape: Isn't that the common denominator with everything Like even um?
• 22:42
  Philip Pape: I just recorded an episode about chronic inflammation and how, like, the biggest drivers are related to lifestyle.
• 22:48
  Philip Pape: I mean, visceral fat is a driver, but, like you know, you and I talked about being sedentary and not having that blood flow and how that affects insulin sensitivity and blood sugar.
• 22:55
  Philip Pape: Well, that's also stress.
• 22:57
  Philip Pape: That's lifestyle.
• 22:57
  Philip Pape: It's all interrelated and yet it's one of the things that it's not sexy to talk about.
• 23:01
  Philip Pape: Right?
• 23:01
  Philip Pape: Sleep and stress.
• 23:02
  Philip Pape: We all need more sleep and less stress.
• 23:04
  Philip Pape: So, speaking of stress, I think about things that stress our body.
• 23:08
  Philip Pape: Right, one of those is a calorie deficit, but another would be potentially fasted training.
• 23:14
  Philip Pape: I'm curious of your thoughts about fasted training.
• 23:16
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, just go.
• 23:19
  Ben Tzeel: As I sit here, literally having training, trained, fasted, right before we're talking right now.
• 23:24
  Philip Pape: OK so.
• 23:25
  Ben Tzeel: I personally do it.
• 23:26
  Ben Tzeel: Some people love it, some people hate it.
• 23:29
  Ben Tzeel: The reason I do it is twofold right, I don't have any insulin on board from any sort of boluses, which in my world, just makes life slightly simpler.
• 23:36
  Ben Tzeel: So I don't have to worry about my blood sugar potentially falling off a cliff.
• 23:39
  Ben Tzeel: And I don't have to worry about my blood sugar potentially falling off a cliff and I don't have to worry about any food in my system for that.
• 23:42
  Ben Tzeel: Some people don't like it because oh, there should be something in your system before.
• 23:45
  Ben Tzeel: For me it's like from a muscle standpoint too.
• 23:47
  Ben Tzeel: I know there's the potential for breakdown.
• 23:48
  Ben Tzeel: I know there's ways to mitigate that.
• 23:49
  Ben Tzeel: I just see as the tradeoff.
• 23:51
  Ben Tzeel: I'm like, if I still hit my targets more down the average person, yes, but if it's, it's kind of in my mind it's like SPF 30, where you block 98% of the sun, or SPF 70 block 99.
• 24:09
  Ben Tzeel: It's like is that little teeny 1% difference going to really make that big a difference?
• 24:10
  Ben Tzeel: If my numbers are happier, which is going to make everything better in the longterm, I'll take the happier blood sugars.
• 24:14
  Ben Tzeel: But I think it's.
• 24:15
  Ben Tzeel: It's totally viable.
• 24:17
  Ben Tzeel: Some people if their blood sugar still crashed, then they need to have a concern with that, but we'll work through it.
• 24:21
  Ben Tzeel: But I I personally do it and I love it.
• 24:24
  Philip Pape: Cool, so you do it for blood sugar purposes.
• 24:27
  Ben Tzeel: Mainly blood sugar.
• 24:28
  Ben Tzeel: Also just convenience, like I like just having it done, then I can do what I want to do.
• 24:31
  Ben Tzeel: Cool.
• 24:32
  Philip Pape: Which is with intention, with purpose, like I think that's the main theme, is that people are thinking I should do fasted training because it's better for fat loss or something, and I and I think that that doesn't work.
• 24:42
  Philip Pape: And also you, like you said you're you've got to look at the the cons and they're actually insignificant, like we know now from protein, recent protein research, that you could distribute it just about however you want and it's like like a couple percent difference right In outcomes.
• 24:55
  Philip Pape: You know, and you it sounds like you've been training a long time so you've like got a big baseline, et cetera, et cetera.
• 24:59
  Philip Pape: So yeah, I just wanted to get that out for people.
• 25:01
  Philip Pape: It's like sure you can do it if it's convenient.
• 25:03
  Philip Pape: It's like intermittent fasting, like the main reason you do that is it's probably convenient for you and maybe it helps you control your calories, right.
• 25:08
  Philip Pape: Like it's not autophagy and longevity and all that stuff.
• 25:13
  Philip Pape: Do you agree?
• 25:16
  Ben Tzeel: I'm going to laugh and say this too.
• 25:17
  Ben Tzeel: I also intermittent fast and I only do it because I like eating two larger meals.
• 25:21
  Ben Tzeel: I do not care about everything else.
• 25:23
  Ben Tzeel: Like, that's just how I like to do it, and from an esophageal everything.
• 25:26
  Ben Tzeel: If there's a little benefit, cool.
• 25:27
  Ben Tzeel: But I'm not doing it because, oh, it'll.
• 25:29
  Philip Pape: You know for sure, help me live eight minutes longer per day, like no, it's just, you know, if you like it, like it, you know carnivore, keto, this and the other.
• 25:41
  Philip Pape: I'm like look, if you like meat and liver and eggs as your diet, you love it.
• 25:44
  Philip Pape: You think you can do that the rest of your life.
• 25:45
  Philip Pape: You feel great, you perform, you're not worried about the consequences of not having fiber.
• 25:49
  Philip Pape: You know whatever, uh, go for it, right, like it's not.
• 25:53
  Philip Pape: I'm not here to tell you what to do or what not to do, but rather to say that don't let others fearmonger you into thinking you have to do this.
• 26:01
  Philip Pape: It's like the two opposites.
• 26:03
  Philip Pape: What is your biggest boogeyman right now that we haven't touched on in the industry?
• 26:09
  Ben Tzeel: Oh geez.
• 26:10
  Ben Tzeel: I mean, besides carnivore which I don't even think carnivore is a problem I just don't think most people can stick to it for longer than three weeks.
• 26:17
  Ben Tzeel: Yeah, that's the main thing.
• 26:18
  Ben Tzeel: Yeah, Okay, glp ones Not even a question.
• 26:20
  Ben Tzeel: Okay, okay, I don't think that's even a question.
• 26:23
  Ben Tzeel: I think because it's everywhere, it's pervasive and it's it's fine.
• 26:26
  Ben Tzeel: But I think a lot of people view them in a really skewed way, diabetes or not.
• 26:30
  Ben Tzeel: Continue.
• 26:31
  Philip Pape: Tell me more when you say cause I yeah, no, we're probably on the same page with this, the nuance, but yeah, let me hear it.
• 26:37
  Ben Tzeel: So with it I mean the irony is they were initially developed for people with diabetes right, and for people with diabetes they can do amazing work and I'm grateful that they exist.
• 26:44
  Ben Tzeel: But then, when it became old, they can help with weight loss.
• 26:50
  Ben Tzeel: Everyone just assumes I'm going to take this thing, it'll be fine, and then I'll lose all this weight.
• 26:52
  Ben Tzeel: And I mean the studies you've seen on the study show that once you get off of it, if you don't change anything, you're you're done for.
• 26:56
  Ben Tzeel: You're just going to gain it all back.
• 26:59
  Ben Tzeel: And I tell people I'm like it's just, it's basically a manufactured calorie deficit because you're feeling disgusting so you don't want to eat anything.
• 27:04
  Ben Tzeel: It's like you could do the same thing.
• 27:06
  Ben Tzeel: You know you want to track and put in a little effort, but I always will say if you want to use it and I've had patients use them with amazing success and I think they're incredible If they're used as a springboard if you do everything else with them, if you do the nutrition side, if you do the exercise side and then from a blood sugar standpoint in our population, if you do the blood sugar have that on point it will work incredibly.
• 27:25
  Ben Tzeel: I've had people lose well over 100 pounds and they're amazing, but the key is to not have it.
• 27:30
  Ben Tzeel: So you're so reliant on them that the moment that they're out of the picture, you're completely SOL.
• 27:33
  Ben Tzeel: That's the problem, and I think so many people just want to use them as this crutch and say it's the magic answer, and in that case it's not.
• 27:40
  Philip Pape: Yeah, okay, I 100% agree.
• 27:42
  Philip Pape: I mean, that's what it comes down to.
• 27:43
  Philip Pape: It's like and I know you referred to your holy trinity, I think, right, nutrition, training, blood sugar, and I guess for me, without thinking as much about the blood sugar, for nine diabetics it's like nutrition, training and lifestyle.
• 27:54
  Philip Pape: Same idea.
• 27:54
  Philip Pape: The whole thing is use it as a tool to help with the potentially gene-related appetite dysfunction you have with your brains, which we know is a real thing and it's exacerbated based on your history, and then do the lifestyle and then come off of it.
• 28:08
  Philip Pape: And I also have worked with clients who, like on terzapatide, which is one of the more powerful ones who say like look, I am doing a lot of the things, but now I'm worried that when I come off, you know I'm just going to start gaining all the weight back and I think there's like a titration method for that.
• 28:20
  Philip Pape: So, given that you work with diabetic population who's probably taking the original Ozempic right, like the OG for diabetes, how do you work with them to come off of that as a strategy?
• 28:32
  Ben Tzeel: And so the fun thing it's the two things I'll say.
• 28:33
  Ben Tzeel: One is for Manjaro.
• 28:35
  Ben Tzeel: For whatever reason, it just seems like it works better.
• 28:38
  Ben Tzeel: Again, I've never taken it personally, but I've seen in the, in the probably three dozen people we've had who are on it, it always seems like Manjaro skews a better result.
• 28:45
  Ben Tzeel: So Zempix kind of there calms the noise, but that's just.
• 28:48
  Ben Tzeel: I forgot to mention that before.
• 28:49
  Ben Tzeel: So I want to make sure.
• 28:50
  Ben Tzeel: I said that, but from a from a titrating off standpoint, my biggest thing is making sure, from a metabolism standpoint, if we can make sure that you are eating an amount that's still reasonable.
• 28:59
  Ben Tzeel: Maybe you're in a deficit, ideally you're still in a deficit, but then we can slowly start to rebuild it back up and have them say, hey, I can know I can hit these targets every single day.
• 29:06
  Ben Tzeel: I can hit these targets every single day.
• 29:08
  Ben Tzeel: Then I have confidence that, as I need to reverse diet, if I choose to reverse diet and I want to eat more, I'm going to do so in a slow and controlled manner, because otherwise that's exactly what's going from a hunger standpoint, is going to go nuts and they're going to eat a bunch of more food than they're used to and the weight's going to come back, so it really just becomes hey, can we get you in a position where, as the doctor, I don't do any of the titration right, but as the doctor starts to bring it down, how can we make sure everything else in your life is set up for success?
• 29:43
  Philip Pape: So you don't have to stress fail-safes in place yeah, it's a good way to put it, Fail-safes and the titration and kind of increasing the calories or even going to maybe a little bit more aggressively over maintenance as you do it.
• 29:51
  Philip Pape: Whatever strategy makes sense for folks, so that once the appetite kicks in you're actually eating enough, that appetite's not as much a concern versus continuing in a dieting phase as you come off, because that's definitely going to be challenging.
• 30:05
  Ben Tzeel: Not only is it going to be hellish, but then, if you're able to change the frame and say, hey, you are likely going to be eating a little bit more, your appetite's going to come back.
• 30:12
  Ben Tzeel: How can we use this to our advantage?
• 30:14
  Ben Tzeel: Are we going to go into maybe a more of a strength building phase, if you're able to get the mindset shift with that too?
• 30:25
  Philip Pape: I think it can do amazing things, but someone has to be ready for that point, or otherwise they're going to absolutely fail, totally agree.
• 30:27
  Philip Pape: All right, I'm switching it up a little bit here because insulin pumps are an area that I know nothing about.
• 30:30
  Philip Pape: I've known diabetes.
• 30:31
  Philip Pape: I've seen the various technology.
• 30:32
  Philip Pape: I always thought it was kind of interesting how they work and how they've evolved over time.
• 30:35
  Philip Pape: But I guess the question is just maybe tell us a little bit about how it works.
• 30:40
  Philip Pape: But also, do you know, do you take breaks from using it?
• 30:42
  Philip Pape: How does that affect the blood sugar management with the other strategies that you work on?
• 30:48
  Ben Tzeel: Oh man, I was going to say I've been on a pump on and off, but mostly on since 2002, which is kind of crazy.
• 30:54
  Ben Tzeel: So I've I've seen the evolution of a pump where you have to do all the math yourself and plug in everything to a pump where it does a lot of the work for you not everything, but a lot of it for you and can make your life a lot easier.
• 31:04
  Ben Tzeel: So, in a nutshell, you know someone without a pump.
• 31:06
  Ben Tzeel: You have type one diabetes or you're insulin dependent.
• 31:08
  Ben Tzeel: You're taking an injection every time you eat, you're taking some sort of basal insulin, long acting, that will last the entire day.
• 31:13
  Ben Tzeel: What a pump will do is it'll just be constantly giving you teeny little amounts 24, seven to function as that basal and every time you eat a meal you dial up and say, hey, I want to eat a meal, this is 30 grams of carbs.
• 31:24
  Ben Tzeel: Boom, you take your dose and now you go eat and you're fine.
• 31:27
  Ben Tzeel: So it makes life a lot simpler because you're taking fewer injections as long as the pump is working and there's algorithms now that can make life a lot easier.
• 31:34
  Ben Tzeel: Oh, it sees, your blood sugar is going up a little bit.
• 31:36
  Ben Tzeel: Here's a little bit insulin for you, so you don't have to actively correct it.
• 31:39
  Ben Tzeel: So from a simplicity standpoint, it can help a lot.
• 31:42
  Ben Tzeel: It also can shut your insulin down if it notices you're trending down.
• 31:44
  Ben Tzeel: So for a lot of parents with kids, super, super helpful with these algorithms, for a lot of people that make life easier.
• 31:50
  Ben Tzeel: It's amazing.
• 31:51
  Ben Tzeel: But I would say a couple of things that people get hung up on is they expect it to do everything for them, which it's not going to.
• 31:56
  Ben Tzeel: You still have to have some sort of active managing role.
• 31:58
  Ben Tzeel: But when the sites don't work like I'm on an Omnipod right now, which is the wireless one and when the sites don't work you're not getting insulin or you're not getting as much as you think you're getting, so suddenly you could eat a meal it's the same meal you eat every day but if you're not getting the amount of insulin you thought, your blood sugar is shooting up and there's no real way to bring it down until you replace that site or take an injection.
• 32:17
  Ben Tzeel: So that's one of the big I'm going to call it cautionary but one of the big things that people have to realize is you have to have a backup plan for that, and there are times where I've gotten frustrated because I've had this for almost 26 years.
• 32:30
  Ben Tzeel: I have scar tissue, so sometimes I run into issues of sight.
• 32:33
  Ben Tzeel: So that's when I'll take a break, like you're alluding to, where I'll say I'm going to go on injections for a few days, or for a few weeks or a few months, depending how frustrated I am, and then I can always come back.
• 32:42
  Philip Pape: Cool man, Thanks for explaining that.
• 32:43
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I wasn't 100% sure how they worked and wanted the audience to understand, and it's just another tool that you've got to be aware of, obviously as part of the strategy for managing the blood sugar.
• 32:52
  Philip Pape: So kind of related or maybe not related, but I think you've said that diabetes can be a strength rather than a limitation.
• 33:00
  Philip Pape: I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you mean by that can be a strength rather than a limitation.
• 33:04
  Allan: I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you mean by that.
• 33:05
  Allan: Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip, pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being.
• 33:14
  Allan: Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares.
• 33:19
  Allan: Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use.
• 33:27
  Allan: He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health.
• 33:35
  Allan: He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition.
• 33:39
  Allan: Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie.
• 33:43
  Allan: In summary, philip Pate is the real deal.
• 33:46
  Allan: He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction.
• 33:52
  Allan: Thank you, philip.
• 33:55
  Ben Tzeel: So I think what was really tough was I was diagnosed at seven, right?
• 33:58
  Ben Tzeel: So you're seven, you want to just make friends and have fun, live a second grade life, right?
• 34:04
  Ben Tzeel: And you're not paying attention to this thing.
• 34:05
  Ben Tzeel: And I kept getting told no, no, no, no, no.
• 34:07
  Ben Tzeel: You can't get strong, you can't play sports, you can't lift, you can't have the cupcakes with your friends and it got really frustrating.
• 34:18
  Ben Tzeel: And so over the years at first I was I'd run into resistance, but I started realizing that the resilience standpoint I think it really builds a lot of resilience and it forces you to build a lot of resilience.
• 34:27
  Ben Tzeel: And also thinking about it from just a health standpoint, from you know, if you're looking at it as a positive, you're way more in tune with your health than the average person.
• 34:34
  Ben Tzeel: Like somebody you know in a conversation who's listening to this is probably already in tune with lifting and working out and food, but someone who's not, you know, relative to that, you're way more.
• 34:46
  Ben Tzeel: You have to be more in tune.
• 34:47
  Ben Tzeel: I have to know everything that's going on in my body.
• 34:48
  Ben Tzeel: I have to be paying attention to my sleep.
• 34:49
  Ben Tzeel: There's 40 plus factors that can impact your blood sugar at any given moment.
• 34:53
  Ben Tzeel: I need to be paying attention to these things.
• 34:55
  Ben Tzeel: So, while it takes up a lot of bandwidth, I feel like from a longevity standpoint as long as blood sugars are maintained, I think in a really weird way this is keeping me on my toes and more accountable, because you get real immediate feedback if you're not paying attention.
• 35:07
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, To the point where it threatens your very physiology and your life.
• 35:14
  Philip Pape: I imagine you know not to find a point on it.
• 35:15
  Philip Pape: So then, based on that, what you've learned and kind of the insights you've had, are there a couple of big lessons that you like to share with folks, whether they are dealing with diabetes or not, for training, nutrition, whatever, and it could be mindset, could be psychology you've taken away from that experience.
• 35:29
  Ben Tzeel: I think one huge thing I've seen again with myself with patients is you have to everyone has to understand, from a consistency standpoint, you're not gonna just explode to perfection right away.
• 35:40
  Ben Tzeel: And so with your blood sugars right, if you're like my, numbers are way higher than they should be, you can't expect in two weeks your blood sugars are going to be perfect.
• 35:46
  Ben Tzeel: If you're trying to lose 50 pounds, you didn't take two weeks to, you know, gain the 50 pounds.
• 35:49
  Ben Tzeel: You're probably not going to take two weeks to lose it.
• 35:51
  Ben Tzeel: So I think, just keeping expectations tempered and enjoying the ride along the way it's with life in general, lifting and lifting pretty moderate, heavy to heavy, a good amount of time, typically solves a lot of problems that otherwise would you know, would be very nasty.
• 36:15
  Ben Tzeel: So I've just, the more I've done it, I've like, oh, I got into this when I was 14.
• 36:18
  Ben Tzeel: Like I really love lifting, I don't think I understood the benefit at the time and the significance you start when you're 14 for aesthetics and for sports, but realizing as a lifelong thing this is massive for people with diabetes.
• 36:32
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and I would extend that to say it is massive for everyone, because that message is the message I try to share on every podcast I go on and I'm surprised sometimes when I talk to a health coach who's like, well, I don't really lift weight, like you're missing out on the biggest piece of the pie in my opinion.
• 36:46
  Philip Pape: So you know, I love what you said about.
• 36:48
  Philip Pape: You know, you can't explode to perfection.
• 36:50
  Philip Pape: We are not just a society, but as a species we want to get things solved.
• 36:56
  Philip Pape: Like once we know we have a goal, we want to go after it, we want to get it solved and we're like you know how do we make that happen as quickly as possible?
• 37:02
  Philip Pape: And so when you combine that with realistic expectations like it's going to take time and enjoying the ride, meaning you know what you could still get dopamine hits and short-term wins.
• 37:11
  Philip Pape: Anyway, if you're smart about, like, constructing the process the right way, it can all work out.
• 37:17
  Philip Pape: I was talking to Nick Delgadillo.
• 37:19
  Philip Pape: He's the CEO of Starting Strength Gyms and he was talking about how, like, new lifters will get that self-motivation once they start seeing the results come fast, especially when you're you know, you're squatting three times a week and weight's going up every time, but then after a certain period of time it starts to get really hard and the progress starts to slow down and you can't just necessarily be a lifter for its own sake, right, you have to kind of parlay that into maybe a sport or something you enjoy or whatever.
• 37:46
  Philip Pape: And I joked because I said, well, I actually do love lifting and some people just love it for its own sake.
• 37:50
  Philip Pape: He's like cool, you're the easiest person to coach, aren't you?
• 37:52
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts on that in terms of people who don't lift regularly and are listening, being consistent, getting in the gym, thinking it's not something for me or I don't like it?
• 38:02
  Philip Pape: How do I get to like it?
• 38:03
  Philip Pape: You know those things.
• 38:04
  Philip Pape: How do I start?
• 38:05
  Philip Pape: How do I be consistent?
• 38:06
  Philip Pape: How do I become a lifter for life?
• 38:08
  Ben Tzeel: I think, and I think for some people I've talked to especially, they're even nervous about the gym, right, because there's, oh my God, everyone's going to be watching me and looking.
• 38:15
  Ben Tzeel: When nobody actually cares and I think they'll be nice and supportive, but if they're in their heads I'll be like let's get you started with something at home.
• 38:22
  Ben Tzeel: You know, you can get a couple of resistance bands you can get, you can use your body weight and you can do a lot with just those two things.
• 38:27
  Ben Tzeel: But you know, then you add in, you know, a couple of little weights and then, when you're comfortable, hey, let me go into the gym and let me make it a twice a week thing.
• 38:33
  Ben Tzeel: I'm going twice a week for half an hour.
• 38:35
  Ben Tzeel: I's add that third day, let's add that fourth day, let's extend it by 10 minutes.
• 38:43
  Ben Tzeel: Suddenly you look back and a year from now, you just went from I'm barely squeaking in there twice a week for 30 minutes to I'm here four times a week for an hour.
• 38:50
  Ben Tzeel: And as you start to see those games like you were alluding to, people start to see that and they're like I want to keep seeing these games, I want to see this progress.
• 38:57
  Ben Tzeel: I see the changes in my body, and that's, I feel like, how people tend to at least from what I've seen fall in love with.
• 39:02
  Ben Tzeel: It is they see the progress, but then also they don't realize until they look back whoa, I'm here way more than I'd ever thought I would be.
• 39:10
  Philip Pape: For sure.
• 39:10
  Philip Pape: Take the action, get the result, get the motivation and make sure to look back what's happened in the before and after you have to, and I'm bad at that myself.
• 39:26
  Ben Tzeel: There are times where I'm like, wow, I just didn't.
• 39:27
  Ben Tzeel: And I'm like, oh, but I was supposed to do that, and so that's a problem that I've worked on all the time where I'm like I need to give myself some credit.
• 39:29
  Ben Tzeel: But to that point right.
• 39:30
  Ben Tzeel: I vividly remember to one patient where she started out eating 40 grams of protein a day and she thought that was a lot, and a year later she was at 150 grams, just plowing, and she was like I ate 150 grams of protein every day.
• 39:39
  Ben Tzeel: I'm like, yeah, remember when you could only eat 40?
• 39:41
  Ben Tzeel: And she's like, how did I live?
• 39:42
  Ben Tzeel: I was like, great, great question.
• 39:44
  Ben Tzeel: Only you can answer that.
• 39:45
  Philip Pape: Exactly.
• 39:46
  Ben Tzeel: But that's, I think, a way to kind of summarize that part where you don't realize how much you've done until you look back and say, wow, that was awesome.
• 39:53
  Philip Pape: For sure.
• 39:53
  Philip Pape: Always good to have some mindset psychology on the show, because that's what a lot of times people struggle with, not just the nuts and bolts and the information.
• 40:00
  Philip Pape: So we've addressed some fear mongering, we've addressed some myths, we've addressed blood sugar management.
• 40:04
  Philip Pape: Speaking of blood sugar, I guess you and I talked before we recorded about some of the hot, spicy topics.
• 40:11
  Philip Pape: I guess what would be something that's, I guess, on the dangerous side that is being promoted by the gurus and the fitfluencers related to blood sugar, that they just totally get it wrong and it could actually hurt people maybe.
• 40:23
  Ben Tzeel: Man, that is a good one, because I feel like a lot of them everybody still talks about you know, oh, when you're done working out, you better have this massive insulin spike.
• 40:30
  Ben Tzeel: So you better spike your blood sugar with all these carbs and, like I wouldn't even say it's necessarily dangerous, it's been around since I started lifting no-transcript.
• 40:50
  Ben Tzeel: Probably not going to work for me.
• 40:51
  Ben Tzeel: You don't need to actually do that.
• 40:53
  Ben Tzeel: From what I've seen in the research has shown you don't really have to do that either, but I haven't seen tons of craziness.
• 40:57
  Ben Tzeel: I'm sure there is.
• 40:58
  Ben Tzeel: I also don't always go looking for it, which is probably for my own sanity's sake, because I see enough stuff about nasty blood sugars and how to cure your diabetes and getting told that you can eat random things.
• 41:14
  Ben Tzeel: So I see enough of that and I'm like I don't want to fill my brain with more trash.
• 41:18
  Philip Pape: All right, I get that man.
• 41:19
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I wish I could just like get rid of social media altogether and just delete it all and there's days I'm like could I live off the grid, would it be fun?
• 41:28
  Ben Tzeel: And then I'm like, no, I'm like two days, I want to see what people are doing.
• 41:30
  Philip Pape: Exactly All right.
• 41:31
  Philip Pape: So then let's go more moderate approach.
• 41:33
  Philip Pape: I alluded to fiber once, I think, talking about carnivore.
• 41:36
  Philip Pape: What role does it play in blood sugar control?
• 41:38
  Philip Pape: Is it necessary Because some people say, well, it's not essential, just like carbs aren't essential?
• 41:42
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts on fiber?
• 41:44
  Ben Tzeel: I don't know if I'd go so far to say necessary, but I would say doing two things.
• 41:48
  Ben Tzeel: One would be slowing down the potential blood sugar spike.
• 41:51
  Ben Tzeel: So you eat a meal and if your blood sugar would have gone I'm just going to throw out arbitrary numbers If it would have gone to 180, if you've got a good amount of fiber, maybe you're only going to 140 just because it slows digestion so much.
• 42:02
  Ben Tzeel: I think and I don't have all of the fun super in-depth data on this, but I do know from a gut health perspective there's a lot of links with gut health and blood sugars and the microbiome and the different possibilities of if your microbiome's off, your blood sugar control could get worse.
• 42:18
  Ben Tzeel: That's, I think, the bigger thing with fiber is.
• 42:21
  Ben Tzeel: I think there's a lot of impact on the gut that people don't pay attention to.
• 42:24
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I agree, and it's.
• 42:26
  Philip Pape: I don't think there are any very many people who are educated enough or expert enough to convey the full answer, but, um, there is someone.
• 42:35
  Philip Pape: Oh man, what's his name?
• 42:35
  Philip Pape: Justin Cottle.
• 42:36
  Philip Pape: Do you know Justin Cottle?
• 42:37
  Philip Pape: He's, he's a.
• 42:38
  Philip Pape: He is an anatomy researcher.
• 42:41
  Philip Pape: Uh, he worked at the anatomy lab.
• 42:43
  Philip Pape: It's the big one.
• 42:44
  Philip Pape: I forget the name he's.
• 42:45
  Philip Pape: He's also a YouTuber now.
• 42:46
  Philip Pape: Really nice guy, actually remind me a lot of him Cause he's.
• 42:48
  Philip Pape: He's very nuanced.
• 42:49
  Philip Pape: You know, positive guy, doesn't want to like fear monger, any of this stuff and he'll give you a really good explanation of the whole, uh, digestive tract and like how fiber affects the microbiota and how diverse sources of fiber and different even eating different apples on different days, you know the different pectins from the different skins will feed that bacteria and we just don't know.
• 43:10
  Philip Pape: So I worry that someone eating carnivore 20 years from now will they have some effect that we haven't been able to study yet because of the length.
• 43:17
  Philip Pape: But you know, we know having fiber has positive outcomes.
• 43:20
  Philip Pape: So I don't know what having no fiber, what the outcome is going to be, is the question.
• 43:24
  Ben Tzeel: Yeah, I don't know if I want to know, honestly, because even in, like the keto people, at least they're getting fiber.
• 43:29
  Ben Tzeel: It may be crazy amounts that might be manufactured, but it's something.
• 43:33
  Philip Pape: For sure, for sure, all right, man.
• 43:35
  Philip Pape: Well, with all of this stuff, is there anything that we didn't cover?
• 43:39
  Philip Pape: Anything you wished I would have asked, and then what would your answer be?
• 43:42
  Ben Tzeel: Man, honestly it's one of the most fun in-depth ones I've gotten to do in a long time, so I'm feeling like we covered a lot of stuff.
• 43:50
  Ben Tzeel: I don't want to overdo it, Cool man.
• 43:52
  Philip Pape: No, that works.
• 43:52
  Philip Pape: That works.
• 43:53
  Philip Pape: I think you covered all the main points.
• 43:54
  Philip Pape: Where do you want people to look yourself up and learn more about this?
• 43:58
  Ben Tzeel: I would say if people are interested, diabetes or not, my team and I are able to work with you, know people from all walks of life who want that nutritional insight, especially in relation to blood sugars, but at man of zeal on Instagram and Tik TOK.
• 44:09
  Ben Tzeel: So M a N O F T Z E E L.
• 44:12
  Ben Tzeel: And then your diabetes insidercom is the place for you know what our team does.
• 44:17
  Ben Tzeel: We've got free stuff on there.
• 44:18
  Ben Tzeel: We've got tons of different freebies, opt-ins and knowledge for you to be able to learn more about diabetes and make your life better.
• 44:25
  Philip Pape: And there's a podcast too, right.
• 44:27
  Ben Tzeel: There is a podcast, the your Diabetes Insider podcast, very cleverly named so that one's a lot of fun if you want to hear some more real, raw rants and fun nuanced diabetes knowledge.
• 44:36
  Philip Pape: For sure, yeah, so we'll throw those in the show notes.
• 44:38
  Philip Pape: Manofzeal at IG.
• 44:40
  Philip Pape: That's with the silent T in there Yourdiabetesinsidercom and yourdiabetesinsiderdiabetes.
• 44:46
  Philip Pape: I'm sorry, I flipped them.
• 44:48
  Philip Pape: Which is the domain?
• 44:49
  Philip Pape: The domain is.
• 44:50
  Ben Tzeel: Oh, yourdiabetesinsidercom and then yourdiabetesinsiderpodcast.
• 44:54
  Ben Tzeel: Okay, okay, so super original on the podcast no no no, that's good.
• 44:57
  Philip Pape: I switched the podcast name, All right, man.
• 44:59
  Philip Pape: Well, yeah, no, it's been a lot of fun.
• 45:01
  Philip Pape: Ben, I appreciate your approach to all of this and I like that people have, you know, the flexibility no matter whether they're on the diabetes or not to really kind of eat and train in a lot of different ways, as long as they're doing it and living an active lifestyle right.
• 45:14
  Philip Pape: Just not for blood sugar alone, but just just to thrive.
• 45:17
  Philip Pape: So thank you so much for sharing that message.
• 45:19
  Ben Tzeel: I'm just grateful that I got to chat with you and hopefully educate some people, diabetes or not, that you know it doesn't have to restrict your life.
• 45:26
  Philip Pape: Awesome.
• 45:26
  Philip Pape: So great for having you on.
• 45:28
  Philip Pape: Thanks for coming on.
• 45:29
  Ben Tzeel: Thank you.