Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Exposing the Mammogram Myth: A New Era of Breast Cancer Screening with Dr. Jenn Simmons
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- Exposing the Mammogram Myth: A New Era of Breast Cancer Screening with Dr. Jenn Simmons === Dr. Taz: We Dr. Jenn Simmons: are treating 20 to 30% of breast cancers of screened detected breast cancers unnecessarily. And treatment for breast cancer is not benign. I was put here to forever change how we diagnose, how we treat, and how we screen for breast cancer. The way that we have been doing it, the way that we have been approaching it is wrong. Dr. Taz: There are usually three major drivers and we need to find it and nail it and then turn this thing around. Dr. Jenn Simmons: This is not about blame or shame. No. And no one ever does anything with the intention of getting cancer. Most breast cancer is a result of longstanding metabolic dysfunction. I'm changing forever. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Changing how we're Dr. Taz: treating Dr. Jenn Simmons: breast Dr. Taz: cancer, some of the hardest moments. That I've had in practice is sitting with one of my patients on their breast cancer journey. And keep in mind, they could be at so many different points of this journey, a new diagnosis, an old diagnosis, a family member, but it's the same anguish, the same fear, the same worry that I see in their eyes and hear their voice every single time. Dr. Taz: That's why this next episode is so important to me. I wanna introduce you to Dr. Jen Simmons, an integrative oncologist, breast surgeon, author, podcast host, and founder of Perfect QT Imaging. Her journey into breast cancer care began with her own personal tragedy. At the age of 16, she lost her acclaimed singer songwriter cousin Linda Creed, who died of metastatic breast cancer. Dr. Taz: Just weeks after Whitney Houston's recording of Linda's song, the Greatest Love of All You Guys Know That one. Dr. Jen became Philadelphia's first fellowship trained breast surgeon and spent 17 years leading the field. However, her perspective changed again when she became a patient herself. Through this personal experience, she saw how broken the conventional medical system can be. Dr. Taz: This led her to discover and embrace functional medicine, a revelation that sparked her journey to towards a more holistic approach to breast cancer care. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Jen Simmons. Okay. This is a really important topic, and you have made the trip up here because I know you think this is a really important topic. Dr. Taz: I sure do. Breast health, you know, we've talked a lot about breast health on the podcast in different ways, personal stories, you know, what people are experiencing, what the research and the science are saying. There's a lot of confusion, I've gotta say, in this space. You know, it's like every time I have somebody on, I feel like I get this different perspective on breast health and what it means and how we stay healthy, how we screen for it. Dr. Taz: So I really wanna dive into all of this with you. Yeah. But before we do, I want everyone to know you. So Dr. Jen is here. I love her. I have interviewed her before. You're an integrative oncologist? Yes. And you're a breast surgeon? Yes. But you've had your own personal experience with breast cancer. I, I have, Dr. Jenn Simmons: tell us a little bit about it. Dr. Jenn Simmons: People ask me all the time, you know, how did I get into this breast cancer space? I want to be very clear. Mm-hmm. I did not find breast cancer. Breast cancer found me. It works that way, doesn't it? It always works that way. So, um, but in a very. An early way in that I come from a breast cancer family. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Literally every woman in my family gets breast cancer, with the exception of my mother who had colon cancer. So my And how Dr. Taz: many generations Dr. Jenn Simmons: back, just Dr. Taz: outta Dr. Jenn Simmons: curiosity. Dr. Taz: Well, Dr. Jenn Simmons: I only know from my grandfather's generation, I don't know beyond that, beyond that Uhhuh. Um, and my grandfather was first generation here as he, he had 13 siblings. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. All the girls got breast cancer, all of their children. And you know, I have a very big family. Mm-hmm. All of their children got breast cancer. So I don't remember a time in my life where I didn't know about breast cancer. Hmm. It was absolutely part of that thread, that tapestry of our family. Hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So. Growing up, I had a first cousin. Her name was Linda Creed. Mm-hmm. Linda was a singer songwriter in the 1970s and 1980s. I'm dating myself right now. That's Dr. Taz: okay. I am right there with you. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So no worries. So she wrote all the music for the spinners and the stylistics. Oh wow. She was beautiful, brilliant. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Larger than life lit up. Every room that she walked into, she wrote 54 hits in all amazing. Her most famous song was The Greatest Love of All Dr. Taz: The One Whitney Houston Sings. Yes. That we all know when Singing the Shower sometimes. Yes. Amazing iconic Dr. Jenn Simmons: song. Was written by my first cousin, my hero. Wow. So she actually wrote that song in 1977 as the title track to the movie, the Greatest. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. Starring Muhammad Ali. Mm-hmm. But it really received its acclaim in March of 1986 when Whitney Houston would released that song to the world. Yeah. And at that time, it would spend 14 weeks at the top of the charts. Only my, my cousin Linda would never know, because Linda died of metastatic breast cancer one month after Whitney released that song. Dr. Jenn Simmons: No, she was 37 years old. 37 years old. I was 16 years old and my hero died. Mm. And despite the decades, I still can't tell this story. I get it without tears coming to my eyes. I get it. And her life, and ultimately her death gave birth to my life's purpose because I never wanted another woman, another family, another community to have to suffer the way that mine suffered. Dr. Taz: Mm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And so I did the only thing I knew how to do. I became a doctor, the first doctor in my family. Was she your Dr. Taz: motivation for being a doctor? Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. I became a surgeon. I became the first fellowship trained breast surgeon in Philadelphia, Dr. Taz: none of which are easy accomplishments, even in the seventies and eighties. Dr. Taz: So Dr. Jenn Simmons: I became the first oncoplastic surgeon in Pennsylvania, and I did this all, I did it really well, and I did it for a really long time, and I did it long enough for my mother to be diagnosed. Mm. I did it long enough for my aunt to be diagnosed and with all the writing on the walls. And what at what was arguably the top of my career as I'm running the breast program and running the cancer program for my hospital and I'm an author and a wife and a mother, and an athlete and a philanthropist, and I am arguably one of the most high performing people that you've ever met. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I go from that to, I can't walk across the room because I don't have the breath in my body. Dr. Taz: Hmm. How old are you at this point? Dr. Jenn Simmons: Oh, Dr. Taz: 46. So this is med school residency practice? Yeah. I'm in practice for about October Dr. Jenn Simmons: post 16 years at this, when this happens and uh, I find myself, I go through this intensive workup and I find myself sitting in the office of my. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Friend and colleague and physician, and he tells me that I need surgery and chemo radiation, and I'm gonna be on lifelong medication, thyroid. And despite the fact that these are things that I say all day, every day without hesitation or reservation, when these words are coming at you, it has a different meaning, I'm sure. Dr. Jenn Simmons: What were you feeling in that moment? I was blank. I was blank. And the most resounding thing that happened in that moment was a voice that I couldn't quiet. Mm-hmm. That I didn't recognize that was telling me there's something more. Go find it. Now I am deeply steeped in conventional medicine, right? I am a conventionally trained physician. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm a surgeon. I'm running an NIH accredited cancer program. I did not know of anything else. I didn't know that anything else existed. And yet you can call it God, you can call it universe, you can call it whatever you wanna call it. There's a voice that I cannot silence in my head that says, there's something more. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Go find it. Wow. And I walked out of the office that day and my, my friend, my doctor, told me exactly what I had told thousands of women before that when they asked me what will happen if I don't treat? My doctor told me what, I had told thousands of women before that when they asked me what will happen if I don't treat. Dr. Jenn Simmons: He told me I was gonna die of my disease. And I knew what he was saying. Like, intuitively I knew that I had said those things and I believed those things and I knew he was trying to give me the very best advice that, that he could. Right. And I knew that he believed that. And yet I felt so called to go find whatever this was, that that was, you know, listen to this voice, right? Dr. Jenn Simmons: This intuition. And so I went on a journey. This was a very selfish journey. This wasn't about like figuring out how I was gonna heal my patients. This was about figuring out how I was gonna live and raise my children. Dr. Taz: Absolutely. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So God is good. And I very shortly thereafter find myself sitting in a lecture hall and this tall, lanky guy walks on the stage, big toothy grin, and he introduces himself as a functional medicine physician. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. Now, despite the fact that I'm sick, I am still cynical. I still don't know where, where I'm going or what I'm looking for. Right. I'm still my snooty booty self. Mm-hmm. And all I could think of was, there's no such thing as a functional medicine physician. What is this quack talking about? Dr. Taz: Right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And then I remember that I'm sick and I'm there for a reason, so I check my ego and I tune in and thank God I did. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because what I was going to learn from this man over the next two hours would not only telescope how I was gonna recover my health, but it was also going to direct what I was going to do with the rest of my life. Dr. Taz: And you had never heard of functional medicine before. Never known about like never kind of this sort of underworld of medicine is what I call it, because we're not exposed to it at all. Dr. Taz: I thought he was a Dr. Jenn Simmons: quack. Yep. Right. Yeah. So now this is 2016, right? And in 2016 we didn't talk about any of this stuff. This was not mainstream. I mean, you might have known. Mm-hmm. And there might have been some fringe people who knew Right. Early. The early enlightened, I call them. But we didn't talk about this stuff. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And even, you know, I went to Jefferson for medical school. Yeah. There was a school of integrative medicine there. And we thought that that's where the crazies went. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like, you know, the fringe people who like I trust me, didn't quite get it. Yep. Right. Like they were hanging out in the school of integrative medicine and the serious doctors were in places like I was like in the operating room. Dr. Taz: I've told this story so many times, like when I chose this path, which also chose me because I got sick, but I was 28, you know, as I started much younger. So by 2016 I'm a slow learner. No, it's just, it's just when things happen to us, right? Like it totally takes you down a different road. And so 2016, when you're entering this conversation, I had already been in practice for about seven or seven or eight years. Dr. Taz: So you can imagine if you're thinking quack, then I was a super quack back in 2008, 2009. Right. And I remember my med school buddies being, you know. Literally sitting me down like, why would you do that? Like why would you jeopardize your name and your reputation? I know. You know, and you know, that was the time in the era that we were in and we're in a different one now, thankfully. Dr. Taz: But we still have a lot of work to do and we still have a long way to go. But I want to hear for sure without question. So you did next and what happened to you? So Dr. Jenn Simmons: what I learned in that in the next two hours, right? Is that in all of chronic illness, yep. But most demonstrably in the area of cancer, we are completely focused on the wrong thing. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Specifically with cancer, we're focused on the tumor. All the focus is on the tumor, right? But the tumor's not the problem. The tumor is the symptom of the problem. And unless you back up 10 steps and ask the question, why is this cancer there? You are never going to solve anything. You're never going to change the trajectory of that person's life. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Even me as a surgeon, removing the tumor doesn't solve the problem. I may delay the inevitable. Right. But I'm not solving the problem. I'm not changing the trajectory of that person's life. So as it turns out, this quack was Mark Hyman. Ah, we know that name. Which, you know, today you can, you can say his name and most people know exactly who you're talking about. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. But in 2016, not so much. Mm-hmm. And I have never heard of him. So, and he's talking about these concepts that were never introduced to me. Not at all. Yeah. Root cause illness. Who ever heard of that? When did we ever ask why? We never did. We never did. We weren't trained to a really good doctor. It takes a constellation of symptoms, gives it a name and prescribes a drug. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. A procedure. Right. Something along those lines. That's what a really good doctor does in that conventional system. And nowhere are they sitting with their patients for an hour or two or three trying to figure out how they got here. Right. So this was a completely new concept to me and I get very excited. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm an early adopter and I am a quick start. I enroll in the school for in the Institute for Functional Medicine. Mm-hmm. I spend the next three years just immersed in the study of functional medicine. What's going on with you meanwhile? Oh, I'm getting much worse. You're getting worse. Yeah. Yeah. So it turns out that you should not embark on a journey and think that you can heal yourself. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm. And I didn't know what I didn't know. Right. And I didn't ask for help. I, I, I, I got much, much worse before I got better. Okay. Much, much worse. Fortunately, I did get better, but it took a very long time. It took years and it didn't need to. Mm. Um, and I also made some very, very, very well-intentioned bad decisions. Dr. Taz: We do that as teachers. We do Dr. Jenn Simmons: that all the time. We should not be doctoring Dr. Taz: ourselves. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Let's just put that Dr. Taz: out there. Yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Or our children, as it turns out, or our families. Dr. Taz: Yeah. And yes. Too many stories there. Yeah. But absolutely not. Yeah. It does not work out too well. No. Mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I love you, Andrew. Dr. Taz: Oh, I have big man walking around. Dr. Taz: Well, I shouldn't share walking around with a stunt right now 'cause he wouldn't listen to me, so, yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Anyhow, Dr. Jenn Simmons: this is, this is my son who like is forever researching this and that and this and that and asking me, mom, I wanna do this and I wanna do that. And I'm like, ah, yeah. But yeah. Yeah. We digress. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. Um, so, you know, what was happening with me is that at every step along the way in what I was learning mm-hmm. I was applying whatever that that was to me then, and not really solving for what was going on with me. Um, and what was going on with me was very complex. And I want to be clear about the fact that what was going on with me and my why is different than anyone else's. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So true. And so people ask me all the time, what did you do to heal? Well, what I did to heal was take care of the things that I did to get me sick. Right. And a lot of them I didn't know about. And a lot of them people don't know about. So when we ask why, when we're in this position with patients, this is not about blame or shame. Dr. Taz: No. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And no one ever does anything with the intention of getting cancer, including smoking cigarettes. Mm-hmm. Like find me the smoker out there that's like, I'm smoking because I wanna get lung cancer. Right, right. Like, no one is doing this intentionally, but yet there are many things that we do unknowingly. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. That lead to illness. Dr. Taz: I love your point though, because for so many people, the first emotion around a cancer diagnosis, honestly around any diagnosis is a lot of shame. It is. And then there's the guilt, and then there's the blame. Yes. And it kind of, you walk through those three steps. Yes. Over and over again. Dr. Taz: Yes. And I think that, you know, if you do get a diagnosis, it's not because you did something wrong. No. And I think I hear that all the time. You didn't do something wrong. Now we wanna talk about the why behind cancer. And I think the why applies often to every type of cancer, not just breast cancer, right? Dr. Taz: That's the breast cancer has its own issue and I think you make a really good point that everybody's why is different. I talk a lot in the rooms about a three hit theory, that there are usually three major drivers and we need to find it and nail it and then turn this thing around. When you think of your own story, I have two questions for you here. Dr. Taz: First, if someone's listening to us and they just got a diagnosis of breast cancer or of cancer, what would you tell them? Dr. Jenn Simmons: Take a breath. Take a pause. Especially in the world of breast cancer, with very rare exceptions, which I'm happy to talk about that re the exceptions. You have time, you have space. Dr. Taz: That's such a gift in itself. Yes, Dr. Jenn Simmons: yes. And in this conventional world, everyone is kind of like, put on this runaway train of treatment. Like, hurry, hurry, hurry, sign up for surgery, sign up for chemo, sign up for radiation. You have to get treated right away. And they do that on purpose, right? We have a very fear-based system, a very fear-based system. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And think about how good you are at making decisions when you're stressed. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And is there a. Greater stressor than a breast cancer diagnosis. Dr. Taz: Not Dr. Jenn Simmons: at all. Right? So when you are stressed, you literally can't think. It is an intentional survival mechanism, right? Because we only know two states, right? We know safety and we know danger. Dr. Taz: Mm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And we only know these unsophisticated ancient dangers. Like we don't understand the difference between a deadline and a saber-tooth tiger, right? The only thing we know is saber tooth tiger. So if we are encountering a saber tooth tiger, we just need to run. We don't need to think about which way to run and should I make a left turn or a right? Dr. Jenn Simmons: We just need to run. Just go, go, go. Right? So what happens is that the blood gets shunted away from the thinking part, the cognitive part of our brain, and we're the monkey brain is on. Well, this is what's happening when people get a breast cancer diagnosis. They're immediately in danger. Yeah. Right. They have that stress response and then we're asking them in that time and space to make an A decision that's gonna affect them for the rest of their life. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And they're in Dr. Taz: mandated with information. Yes. And data and statistics. They're that they don't understand and they're possibly Dr. Jenn Simmons: process. Right. So here's the exceptions. If you have inflammatory breast cancer, this is an emergency. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: This is something that is already systemic. Your clock is ticking, unfortunately, and you need treatment right away. Dr. Jenn Simmons: This is a do not pass. Go. Do not collect $200. Just get on it. Just get on it. Yeah. Okay. The second thing is, if you have metastatic disease to the bone that has caused a fracture, right. These are very painful. People are suffering. It is impossible to heal when you are in pain. That is something that needs radiation right away because we need to get people out of pain in order for them to heal. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. And the third thing is if you have brain mets, yes. The brain is in a fixed space. We cannot afford for too much swelling because when you get too much swelling, the blood supply to the brain gets cut off. This is not compatible with life. Dr. Taz: Right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So if you have a brain mat or brain mats, you need treatment for that right away. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Everyone else, including people who are diagnosed with metastatic disease, everyone else, you have time. You have time to learn about the disease. Mm-hmm. Learn about the treatments, see what's right for you. Assemble your team. Make your plan. And the thing that everyone who gets breast cancer, breast ca, breast cancer, gets right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Is a treatment plan, but the thing that everyone with breast cancer needs is a health plan. Wow. And that's why I wrote my book, that's why I wrote The Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer. Because people need this. We are not allowing women to make informed decisions right now. Right. You can't make an informed decision if you don't have the information and you certainly don't have the whole story. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So this is how I am, I'm changing forever, changing how we're treating breast cancer because to do, to continue doing it the way that we're doing it, it's immoral. It really is. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's unethical Dr. Taz: and it's, the numbers continue to go up in terms of They Dr. Jenn Simmons: do, but, but in, in many ways, those numbers aren't real. Dr. Taz: Really. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And it's part and parcel to how we're screening. Because if you use mammogram. As the way to screen. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And please know the Mammographic screening program when it was started in the 1970s, I really do believe it was started with the best of intention. It was just built on very flawed thinking. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So when it was started in the 1970s, it was built on a foundational understanding. Mm-hmm. That breast cancer growth is both linear and predictable. Meaning that a breast cancer starts really small and it grows to some critical size, at which time it's more likely to metastasize or spread. So if you could find it before it reached that critical size, you could save lives and save breasts. Dr. Jenn Simmons: This theory is intelligent. This theory is logical. It just doesn't happen to be true. Ugh. So breast cancer growth is neither linear nor predictable. Breast cancer is all about biology, and it is what it is from the very start. So if it's gonna be an aggressive process, it's gonna be an aggressive process from the very start. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And unfortunately, these women that have aggressive breast cancers, they are not served at all by mammogram. Mammogram does not change the trajectory of their lives. So why are we Dr. Taz: still recommending it? Well, I'll tell Dr. Jenn Simmons: you. Dr. Taz: Okay. Excellent question. I mean, it's just so frustrating. Yeah. Because as somebody who personally found a lump, went down this nine month journey of, okay, you have a lump, now we need an MRI, now we need an ultrasound, now we need to go look at the other breast. Dr. Taz: Now we need to biopsy it. And just like walking through those steps, as a very busy woman, like so many women are. Mm-hmm. It took me six to nine months mm-hmm. To finally learn that it was negative. Mm-hmm. Right. But in the six to nine months, I'm like, is my will updated? Is everything okay? Like your brain starts to go Yes. Dr. Taz: And crazy. And in the meantime, spaces Dr. Jenn Simmons: you generated a lot of work. I did. And business for the system. I sure did. You had how many studies? Least five appointments. Two Dr. Taz: biopsies. Yep. Yep. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So it's all about the business of medicine, unfortunately. Mm. So, you know, when that program was started. They really did believe that they were gonna save lives and save breasts. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? And that's what we have been told for decades. For 50 years, we have been told that mammograms save lives and save breasts. And yet we've known since 1977 that that's not true. Mm. So when you look at, seems me Dr. Taz: so mad. Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's infuriating. So when you look at, no matter how many mammograms we do every year, the exact same number of women die of breast cancer. Dr. Jenn Simmons: We are not impacting the bottom line. No matter how many mammograms we do every year, the same exact number of women present with aggressive disease, these are the women that are not impacted by mammogram. The only women that are impacted by mammogram are the women who don't have aggressive disease. And for those women. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mammogram. Doesn't matter. 'cause they are gonna do well anyway. Mm. So let's look at the large scale studies. Okay. Because I think that that is the most important and the most demonstrative. So looking at the Swedish trials, 600,000 women, they have universal healthcare. So everyone has the same access. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Everyone has the same care. 300,000 are screened with mammogram. 300,000 are just getting physical examination. The same exact number of women die of breast cancer in both groups. Dr. Taz: Hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And the only difference is in the women that screen with mammogram, they have 20 to 30% more breast cancers. Dr. Taz: What's going on there? Dr. Jenn Simmons: So it's either that mammogram is causing them or mammogram is picking up things that would have never become clinically relevant, would've never affected their lives because they're not presenting in the other group. Right. So. We are treating 20 to 30% of breast cancers of screen detected breast cancers unnecessarily. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And treatment for breast cancer is not benign right now. There was another large scale study, the Canadian breast cancer screening study that, you know, maybe when you look at all women across the board, maybe it's not beneficial, but maybe young women, maybe it's beneficial in young women. We're hearing a lot now about younger, we should, should screen early and screen often, right? Dr. Taz: Right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So let's look right. 90,000 women ages 40 to 59. 45,000 screened with mammogram, 45,000. Just have physical examination. Same exact outcome, the same exact number of women die of breast cancer in each group. And the only difference is if you screen with mammogram 20 to 30% increased risk of being diagnosed with breast cancer, Dr. Taz: it's the same as the other study, the same Dr. Jenn Simmons: as the other study. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So now we know mammograms do not save lives. And if you screen with mammogram and the more mammograms you have, the higher your likelihood is of being diagnosed with breast cancer. Mammograms do not save lives. Oh my Dr. Taz: gosh. I have so many high risk, quote unquote high risk patients, right, that are told to get mammograms every six months. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. Do you know why? I'm afraid of the answer. It's the one way to guarantee that they will get into the system. Mm. That's the one way to guarantee that they will become a patient. It's horrible. And I do think that there are a lot of doctors. That are participating in this system unknowingly, of course. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. Because you know, when we were in medical school, we're trained in a certain way. Yeah. We are trained. Right. And we are taught. Right. That mammograms save lives. I mean, have you ever heard anything different? No. No. Right. Like the things that I say all the time are considered by many like heresy. Right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I get it because if you never looked into the data, you wouldn't know. You wouldn't know. And for all of those years that I was a breast cancer surgeon, because I did leave surgery in 2019. Mm-hmm. Because I knew that I could not stay right in this system. Right. That we were actually hurting people. So I never questioned, you know, when you are, when the people that you admire the most teach you this. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And when you are in medical school, you're looking up to these giants Absolutely. Of industry Yeah. Giants. Yeah. Why would I ever think that you, you trust that they've done the due diligence. Right? And if they're telling me they save lives and they save lives, right? And they're telling me that early diagnosis saves lives, then I believe it. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. Just doesn't happen to be true. Now listen, if we're not saving lives, but we're saving breasts, this is a worthwhile endeavor, right? Because after all, no matter how you try to prepare a woman for mastectomy, you cannot, those scars run so deep, Dr. Taz: horrific. Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's horrific. They will never, ever, ever, for the rest of their lives, once they've had a mastectomy, they'll never forget that they had breast cancer. Dr. Jenn Simmons: There is a daily constant reminder Dr. Taz: mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: That they've had breast cancer. So if we can save breasts, that's a worthwhile endeavor. Yeah. So let's look at the data. When we started to screen with mammogram. Did the mastectomy rate go down and the answer is no. In fact, it increased by 20%. Dr. Taz: Mm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So we're not saving lives. Dr. Jenn Simmons: We're not saving breasts. What are we doing? Well, you asked where's all this breast cancer coming from? Right. Well, some of it is coming from the mammogram because even though we gave it a lovely name, mammogram picture of the breast. Mm-hmm. It's an x-ray. It's an x-ray to what is arguably one of the most vulnerable tissues of the body because the breast is one of the organs and the thyroid. Dr. Jenn Simmons: These are our canaries in the coal mine. Dr. Taz: Right, Dr. Jenn Simmons: right. These are very environmentally sensitive organs. And what do we do with a mammogram? We put that organ under 20 to 50 pounds of pressure and then we radiate it. And we do it every year for good measure. And sometimes we do it more than once a year. So listen, I am not saying that one mammogram is going to cause breast cancer. Dr. Jenn Simmons: No, of course not. But who gets one mammogram, Dr. Taz: right? So what do we do? You know, I'm thinking about all the women out there who have breast cancer in their family. Mm-hmm. And are terrified. Mm-hmm. Or they have a friend that they've lost to breast cancer and we need some way I know of monitoring what's happening with, well first of all, we can get into a really long conversation about overall health, but when it comes to breast health and you know specifically what's the, what's the right step? Dr. Taz: Where do we start? Yeah. What's the age to start? Yeah. How frequently, what we are. Amazing questions, what Dr. Jenn Simmons: we do. So I'm going to start off with my tagline, which is, breast health is health. Of course. And the very same things that you're gonna do to have healthy breasts are also going to give you a healthy brain, healthy mood, healthy heart, healthy gut, healthy skin, healthy bones, healthy joints, healthy everything. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because it's all connected. Because we're all connected. We're just one being. Now the question is how do you screen for breast cancer? Right? Right. Because after all, breast cancer is probably the thing that women fear most, despite the fact that women die of cardiovascular disease more exponentially more, right? Dr. Taz: Yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Exponentially more from the age of 30 on exponentially more than they die of breast cancer. And yet the fear is absolutely positively centered around breast cancer. And I get it. Okay. I get it. But. We've been so conditioned to think that we have to suffer through this current system. And it's a lie. Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's not true. You can safely, effectively screen for breast cancer and then we have to talk about prevention. Mm-hmm. Because that is the most important thing. Of course. Yes, definitely. And early detection, even though I have early detection programs built all into my programming, early detection is not prevention. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Prevention is prevention. Right. And early detection. I mean, the horse is out of the barn. Totally. Right? Yeah. So how do we screen safely for breast cancer? Because it is unethical to expose a healthy woman, a healthy woman, and healthy breasts to radiation. So I don't think anyone should have a screening mammogram ever. Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh, Dr. Jenn Simmons: ever. Dr. Taz: Okay. That in itself is going to rock everybody's world. Yes, I get it. No screening mammograms. No screening mammograms Dr. Jenn Simmons: ever. And you don't need them. So what is, so here's my screening map paradigm. Three things. First, I think every woman, woman should be doing self-breast examination. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: No one is ever gonna know you better than you know yourself. I have a news flash. Every single woman thinks her breasts are lumpy. It's okay. Own your lumps. Right? That should be a tagline. Dr. Taz: Own your lumps. Own your lumps. I love it. Right. So if you know what Dr. Jenn Simmons: your breasts feel like when they're normal, you will recognize the abnormal, I promise you. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Okay. So own your lumps. Once a month, day seven of your cycle. If you are premenopausal, if you're postmenopausal, feel 'em on the first. Right. Just do it during a time that you know you're gonna do it. You don't have to examine your breasts every day. Nothing's changing that quickly. Just examine them once a month. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Okay. The second thing is there's a test now called the ARIA Test. Mm-hmm. A-U-R-I-A. This is the TIERS test. Have you heard of it? No. This test's amazing. The Aria Test. Aria, okay. A-U-R-I-A. They're aria.care, and I actually have a code for everyone to use, which makes this test very affordable. My code is Dr. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Gen 20. Okay. D-R-J-E-N-N 20 makes this test very, very affordable. It's an at-home test. Get gets sent to your house. There's a little piece of paper that you tuck inside of your eyelid, close your eye for five minutes, take the paper out, put it in a tube, send it off to the company. You get a result a week and a half later. Dr. Jenn Simmons: It is measuring for these proteins, these inflammatory proteins that are present 93% of the time in women who have breast cancer. Dr. Taz: That is fascinating. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Fascinating. Right? These are the S 100, A eight, and S 100 A nine proteins. Now these proteins are found in other inflammatory conditions, right? That's definitely true. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So the sensitivity of this test is 93%, which is better than any of the imaging, except for maybe an MRI. Mm-hmm. But better than a mammogram. Better, far better than a mammogram, right? Mm-hmm. So 93% sensitivity, the specificity is 58%, which means that 42% of the time, even if you don't have breast cancer, this test is gonna be positive. Dr. Jenn Simmons: You're gonna get a clinically significant result. However, there are no false positives on this test because if you test positive for these proteins, you have the inflammatory precursors to breast cancer. Do you know what this is? No. This is opportunity I. You can go have imaging, and if you don't have a breast cancer, what you have is the opportunity to prevent a diagnosis. Dr. Jenn Simmons: You've been given a gift, you know, Dr. Taz: so we should all be doing this. Dr. Jenn Simmons: We should all be doing this. And you can be doing it twice a year. Yeah. And we tell people to start at 30 and do it twice a year. And if you have a clinically significant result, my book, the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer, and I have the Breast Cancer Prevention Program. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So take my course, turn this train around. You have, and you can't turn it around. Dr. Taz: Yes. Yeah. That's the Yes. That's the message of hope. Yes. And moving us out of this fear-based space, you know? Yes. So Dr. Jenn Simmons: we can prevent this diagnosis. Dr. Taz: That is incredible. And I'm hoping everybody who's hearing this is motivated. Dr. Taz: Yes. Now let me ask you a question. Would this also correlate to just general inflammation in the body? Like A-C-R-T-A sed rate? Not, not so much. Okay. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So what, what the company has seen it correlate with is if you have inflammatory bowel disease. Yeah. Like Crohn's right. Or ulcerative colitis. If you are in a current flare, that can be your false positive. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Hmm. So if you're going to do this test and you have that condition, I would not do it at the same time. Gotcha. But again, there are going to be what, what's a naysayer would say? False positives. Mm-hmm. And I will say there are none. Right. Like if you have, 'cause the, it's trying Dr. Taz: to tell you something. Yes. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. It, it's telling you that you have the inflammatory precursors to breast cancer. And you have the ability to do things to negate those inflammatory factors. So Dr. Taz: let's, I know it's all in your book and I encourage everybody to get the book, especially if you've been concerned about your breast health or within your family or any of those type of things. Dr. Taz: Yes. If you took maybe. Three top tips. Yeah. To turn this train around, you've gotten a positive when it comes to inflammatory proteins that are marking breast cancer. Maybe you've gotten a positive on a screening study of some kind. What are three things you would tell people to do? Dr. Jenn Simmons: Well, first I want you to know that if you have a clinically significant result, you should definitely get imaging. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So the imaging that I recommend is a QT scan. I have per perfection imaging centers. Mm-hmm. In Pennsylvania. In California, I'm opening up 50 more in the next five years. Incredible. So everyone who wants access to this scan can get access to this scan. This uses sound waves, sound wave technology transmitted through a warm water bath. Dr. Taz: Wow, Dr. Jenn Simmons: that collects 200,000 times more data points than MRI and creates a true 3D reconstruction of the breast. So in as little as 20 minutes in a spa-like experience, you can have your breast screened in a sensitive, specific, accurate way. Dr. Taz: So more smashing, no more smashing and grabbing, no pain and all of that. Dr. Taz: No Dr. Jenn Simmons: radiation, no compression, none of it. None of it. It is a beautiful spa-like experience. And you do this once a year? Once a year. Okay. Once a year. So everyone who has a clinically significant result should go get imaging. Now when we're talking about prevention mm-hmm. Or even you're newly diagnosed, right? Dr. Jenn Simmons: There are, there are many things that I think about in terms of how do you start to build your health because when you build your health disease goes away, right? So. If you're purely talking about prevention, I think that you certainly need to think about what you're eating and what you're drinking, because 80% of our exposures to the outside world are through what we eat and what we drink. Dr. Taz: Hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So I think it's very important to look at your diet, to know that you're eating in a nourishing way, you're minimizing processed foods. I don't get into the diet wars, right? So, you know, I'm not, I'm not on the side of the vegans, right? I'm not on the side of the carnivores. Right. I'm not on anyone's side. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I personally am plant-based because that's what works for me. That's what makes me feel good, and that's what nourishes me. But I'm not judging anyone else. Right. But is Dr. Taz: there, has there been anything linked directly from a food standpoint to increase in these inflammatory proteins or increases in breast cancer? Dr. Taz: Absolutely. We've absolutely, we've some recent stuff around alcohol we've seen. So sugar alcohol is a Dr. Jenn Simmons: big one. Okay. Alcohol is a big one. Um, and you mentioned sugar. Mm-hmm. So I will say that at this last A four M Yeah. The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine, the focus of this talk, the focus of this conference was. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Metabolic disease. Right. And my talk was about metabolic disease and breast cancer. Because the truth is that most breast cancer is a result of longstanding metabolic dysfunction. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. So many things are tying right back to metabolic disease. Absolutely. Without question. And higher blood sugar levels, right? Dr. Taz: Yes. When we talk about Alzheimer's, we talk about autoimmune disease, we talk about blood sugar Dr. Jenn Simmons: levels, Dr. Taz: PCOS, endometriosis, triglycerides, all Dr. Jenn Simmons: of it, right? Like this all is tying in. And quite frankly, if we screened for metabolic disease with the same interest and vigor that we screen for breast cancer, we would all be in a very different place. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because that is prevention. Mm-hmm. Because the metabolic dysfunction presents decades. Before the breast cancer diagnosis, we should be screening for metabolic disease. Like it's our job. Dr. Taz: And what would you screen? 'cause there are many people that are skinny fat, they're not necessarily overweight. Yes, I know they're just high blood sugar. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. High lipids. Yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like what are the things? So what I'm always looking for, right. And this is part of every evaluation that I ever do with any patient. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm looking at fasting glucose, although I'll argue that that is a late finding. Mm-hmm. When you start to bump your glucose, the horse is out of the barn. Dr. Taz: Right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm looking at fasting insulin. Yep. I'm looking at A1C, but fasting insulin is a much more sensitive marker than fasting glucose because your pancreas can compensate mm-hmm. For a while before your, before your glucose starts to be abnormal. So I'm looking at hemoglobin A1C, which is a three month average, right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Of your sugar, of your blood Dr. Taz: sugar. What's your goal with that? Usually Dr. Jenn Simmons: under five. Yeah. I'm picky though. Yeah. I, I run a tight ship. Yeah. Dr. Taz: I, no, that's exactly what I recommend as well. Trying to get under five. But so many people are at 5.6. I know, which is quote unquote normal. I know. You know, so, yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Our normal includes 95% of our population. I'm not looking to be normal, right? I am exceptional. I love that and I expect everyone in my ecosystem to be the exception. Exception. I love it. Um, so I'm looking at that. I'm looking at triglycerides, um, 'cause that is how your liver is handling the sugar. I'm looking at HDL and specifically I'm looking at a triglyceride to HDL ratio. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And they should look like one another, right? Mm-hmm. Like it should be pretty close to 1.1. If you are above 1.5, you're not in good shape. Okay. And then I am looking at blood pressure. Mm-hmm. I'm looking at waist circumference. I'm looking at a waist to hip ratio because in women we should have a, a waist to hip ratio that is 0.8. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: We really should. Now, if you're very muscular woman and you're on the straighter side, your ratio might not be there. Right. But most women should have a waist to hip ratio that looks like 0.8 0.8. Yeah, so I, I'm looking at these things and they're very easy to measure, right? These are routine. Dr. Taz: These should be routine. Yes. From 21 on, honestly. Yes. Or even in our teenagers, like, we should be screening for metabolic disease from the get go. Yes. Because it's really an epidemic, but then it looks different on everybody. For some people it's PCOS. For some people it's autoimmune disease. For somebody else, it's breast cancer. Dr. Taz: So I think this is something that everybody can do. This is not, you know, out of our reach, difficult, high maintenance stuff. This is very much within everybody's reach, not rocket science. Right? But let's talk, let's, let's not leave the alcohol, because I still get this question today. You know, where, where do you land in the alcohol conversation when it comes to breast health? Dr. Taz: Okay. Don't shoot the messenger. Okay. I'm probably on the same page as you, but go ahead. All right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So, so according to, I'm gonna blame the AM American Cancer Society. I. Cancer Society. Love. I love it. So according to the American Cancer Society, there is no safe amount of alcohol for women. Dr. Taz: Hmm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Okay. Nice. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now listen, women and men are not equal. And I hate to say it because I am a very high performing woman. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: But we are not equal. Yeah. Men actually, I don't think we wanna be. Men actually can drink alcohol. They can. Mm-hmm. You don't think we're seeing the same inflammation and the Dr. Taz: same insulin resistance. Dr. Taz: And so they Dr. Jenn Simmons: should not be doing it excessively either. Yeah. But women are not able to metabolize everything they need to metabolize if they also have alcohol in the mix. Mm-hmm. So one ounce of alcohol is going to take your liver. Eight hours to get through. Dr. Taz: Mm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Okay. We just have one washing machine. If you have two loads of laundry every day and then suddenly you're putting in a third, but you can only get through two, you're just, it's just gonna pile up and pile up and pile up. Dr. Jenn Simmons: That's what's happening in women who add alcohol into the mix because we have more hormones to metabolize than they do because we just simply don't have the capacity. We don't have the capacity to get through alcohol plus everything else. And we also expose ourself to much more toxins. Right. Many more toxins than men do you know men are not putting on their face and doing their hair and putting products all over their body constantly. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. They're just not doing it. Yeah. So they're exposed to less and they have more capacity, so. I'm not saying you're never gonna have another champagne cocktail again. Okay. Your birthday, your anniversary. Okay. Special occasions. Special occasions. But you should not have more than one drink at a time. Dr. Jenn Simmons: You should not drink on consecutive days. Can you take a vacation from your life? Absolutely. But a vacation from your life is like a week. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Don't let a week turn into a month, which turns into six months, which turns into a year. And alcohol is not a stress management tool. Dr. Taz: Okay. Which so many women use men. Dr. Taz: That's exactly right. Men, women use today. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. And I think that that is a large part of the epidemic that we're seeing. Oh, I just have a glass of wine at dinner. Dr. Taz: Yeah. So many women cook with wine. So many women wind down with wine. Yes. So many of us celebrate with alcohol in some form or, or fashion. How, Dr. Jenn Simmons: how so many people cap their day. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. So many people, I actually had a, a patient fire me over this very issue. Are you serious? Mm-hmm. Dr. Taz: Oh wow. People are sensitive about this stuff. She's a nutritionist. Yeah. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I think it's very hard to tell people who that's their job. Their job, right? Yeah. And she was a cap your day with alcohol person. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. She had a glass of, that was how she capped her day. Yeah. Right. At the end of the day, she would've a glass of wine while she was cooking dinner. It was her thing. Right. And she got a breast cancer diagnosis. And you can imagine, I mean, she's a nutritionist. Her diet's beautiful. Dr. Taz: Right. It's Dr. Jenn Simmons: beautiful. Dr. Taz: Right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I said to her, you have to stop drinking. She said, what are you talking about? I said. You, at least in this acute phase, like you, you can't treat, you have breast cancer. Dr. Taz: Right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I think a lot of women don't even know the connection that alcohol has to breast cancer. It is the number one modifiable risk factor for breast cancer because it's a lot easier to stop drinking alcohol than it is to lose weight. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? Because it's age, obesity, alcohol, Dr. Taz: those are the three big ones. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. And by age, those are the three modifiable risk factors. Age, what's going on there? Yeah. So the beautiful privilege of living longer is, is beautiful in almost every way, except that every year or longer you live, your risk of breast cancer goes up. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And why is that? Because we're all born with an ability, a finite ability to tolerate toxins. So you're rehanded at birth, you're handed your bucket and you start filling it and start filling it and start filling it. And everyone will get to the point where their ability to clear the toxins is not as good as the toxins as they have as it used to be. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. So you're it. Breast cancer is a reflection of toxic overload. It's, you've, you've lost the battle. Battle. Okay, we gotta say that again. Yeah. Dr. Taz: Breast cancer is a reflection of toxic overload. Yes. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Breast cancer is a metabolic disease and sugar and all alcohol and inflammation. That's toxin. Right. Right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. And it's an environmental disease. So what happens in the breast, breast cancer is a normal response to an abnormal environment. Mm. And the breast. The reason that the breast is the canary in the coal mine. The reason that the breast is such a reflection of how toxic your environment is, is because the place that we store our toxins is in our fat cells. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? And when you look at the makeup of the breast as an organ, it glandular tissue, that's the milk producing tissue. It's fat. And even if you have dense breasts, you still have a lot of fat in your breast, right? Right. It's still, the majority of your breast is still gonna be fat, connective tissue, all in a skin envelope. Dr. Jenn Simmons: So if you have the abundance of the cells in the breast, be fat cells. And fat cells are where we store our toxins. Then your glandular cells, your your milk producing cells, they are literally sitting next door to the garbage dump. Right. It's like living next door to a hoarder. Mm-hmm. Eventually it's gonna spill over onto your lawn and when that happens, it damages the cells, damages the DNA, those cells feel threatened and they go into survival mode. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Hmm. That's all breast cancer is. This is a transformation from the chemistry of joy to the chemistry of stress. Dr. Taz: And so I know so many more patients are coming in with like the triple negative diagnosis of breast cancer. Mm-hmm. Which I think is purely like environmental toxic glow. It's Of course it is. Dr. Taz: Is that different though from an ERPR positive or hormone receptor positive cancer? Yeah. Is there any differentiation between those? Dr. Jenn Simmons: That's exactly what it is. It's a lack of differentiation. Mm-hmm. It is a, okay, we just gotta turn these cells out. I am in serious survival mode. Like this environment is really toxic and I just need to survive, survive, survive. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Don't care if I do it correctly, because remember, estrogen receptors, progesterone receptors, these are normal elements on a breast cell. A breast cell normally puts these receptors up so that they can interact with the estrogen and progesterone, which are normal physiologic hormones in our body. That's how the cell knows what to do. Dr. Jenn Simmons: That's how the cell gets its signaling. When we lose that, when that, when that cell has become so transformed, so mutated that we don't have that system anymore, like this is a really rogue cell. Mm. That's what that means. Gotcha. So when someone comes to me and says, well, I have a hormone positive breast cancer. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm like, great. You're not that abnormal. Dr. Taz: Well, what does it mean for women? You know, I get this question all the time. I've been diagnosed with breast cancer, I've recovered from breast cancer. I have a family history of breast cancer. Can I or can I not do HRT? Dr. Jenn Simmons: This is my love. This is the thing that I love the most, that I love to talk about the most. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm gonna share my story with you. Okay. So I come from this breast cancer family. I finished my training in 2003. I'm trained by a brilliant, brilliant man, probably one of the first people to become a dedicated breast surgeon. He, he runs an international think tank. He is just considered the grandfather of breast surgery, his name as Dr. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Gordon Schwartz. And in 2003, Gordon Schwartz taught me three things. He taught me that hormones cause breast cancer. Mm-hmm. That the only women that should take hormones are those that absolutely, positively cannot live without it. And in said women, you should give them the smallest amount for the shortest amount of time. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And that's how I went through most of my career. Believing that because why would he lie to me? That's there that still, and that was, that was the findings of the women's health initiative. Right? Right, right. So who am I to question it? So couple years go by decades, couple decades go by and I do not go quietly into my goodnight. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I literally have every single imaginable symptom of menopause. Mm-hmm. That you could think of. Mm-hmm. If you can think of it. I had it walked into a room. Dr. Taz: The hell did I come in here for memory loss, bone loss, rashes, hair loss. Yes. We can go on forever. Dizziness, vertigo. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. Vertigo. I mean, literally everything. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I am the bitch in my house. Yeah. I'm screaming at my children. I'm screaming at my husband. My relationship is suffering. I'm like practically in tears all the time, trying to hold it together, trying to run a practice. I mean, I am a disaster a lot. Yeah. And I'm at a conference and one of my friends comes up to me and she's like, you know, Jen, not for nothing, but you're not yourself. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I just break down and I tell her all about what's going on. She's like, well, why aren't you on hormones? I said, what are you talking about? I'm from this breast cancer family. I can't go on hormones. She's like, what? That's not true. Have you read Estrogen Matters? Mm-hmm. So I read Estrogen Matters and it changed my life. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And now I think, well, maybe I should be doing some research on this. Look at myself, look at this data. As it turns out, the data is not only there, but it's compelling for hormones. So when we look at the population of women who take hormone replacement, Dr. Taz: right, Dr. Jenn Simmons: and let's face it, if you don't take hormone replacement, you get breast cancer. Dr. Jenn Simmons: If you do take hormone replacement, you get breast cancer, right? Everyone gets breast cancer. But if you take hormone replacement and you get breast cancer, you have better outcomes. Dr. Taz: Really? Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. Why? Across the board? Better survival. Because now they may be self-selecting, right? Because the people that take hormones tend to be a little bit more proactive. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. Right. About their health and they, and they take care of other things too, right? Right. Okay. So they may be self-selecting, but. In my opinion. Okay. True, true. And unrelated. Right. If they're having better outcomes, we need to ask those questions why? Right. Right. And it turns out that they also have less heart disease. Dr. Jenn Simmons: They also have less dementia, they have less Alzheimer's, they have less fractures. Wow. These are the major things that women are dying of. They're dying of heart disease, they're dying of Alzheimer's, they're dying of bone disease. Mm-hmm. Right? So we need to be looking at this and saying, well, are we really doing the right thing? Dr. Jenn Simmons: Scaring women away from hormones because they're not getting more breast cancer and they're not dying of breast cancer. Dr. Taz: So take your hormones. So Dr. Jenn Simmons: take your Dr. Taz: hormones even past. Now Dr. Jenn Simmons: let's talk about the women who have had right. Breast cancer, and specifically women who have had hormone positive breast cancer because. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I can't think of a single reason. If you had triple negative breast cancer that you should be denied hormones. Mm-hmm. Like the argument just isn't there. Their tumor was neither caused by hormones. Right. Nor is it propagated by hormones. Right. So that that should be an easy thing. Even though most, most providers, once they hear breast cancer, the answer is no. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because most providers don't know the difference between, I don't know and no. Right. So they just say no. So they just say no. Yeah. But let's look at the data. 20 studies of women who have had breast cancer, hormone positive breast cancer, and then went on to take hormone replacement afterwards. No increase in recurrence. Dr. Jenn Simmons: No increase in metastatic disease, and increase in long-term survival. Dr. Taz: Mm. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because what's happening to these women afterwards? This is the forgotten woman. This is the woman that I talk to all day long. This is the woman who has been treated for breast cancer, and she's told that she should be grateful to be alive, Dr. Taz: right? Dr. Jenn Simmons: And she is grateful, but it is very hard to feel grateful when you have brain fog, when you can't sleep, when you're anxious, when you're scared, when you're having palpitations, right? When your joints ache, your bones ache, and you're not you. Everything aches. Yeah, you've gained weight. Your clothes don't fit. Dr. Jenn Simmons: You feel and look deformed. You have painful sex. Sex is unwanted. You have no libido. You have yeast infections, bladder infections, urinary tract infections. When all of this is happening, it is very hard to feel grateful, and yet we know from these studies that. Hormone replacement is very safe when done correctly and responsibly in the breast cancer population. Dr. Taz: I mean, I think, again, this is yet another message of hope and encouragement that women can be vital. I. Post a diagnosis. Absolutely. And there are options. What would you tell the women listening to us today who's, who's, who listens and is gonna walk away and be told something totally different when they go into their exam rooms or talk in their communities or things like that? Dr. Taz: What is your hope, you know, that someone can take away from today and then turn around and make it actionable for them? Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. I, I didn't get sick for no reason. Mm. I know exactly why I got sick. I got sick because I was put here to change the way that we talk about breast cancer, to change the conversation around breast cancer. Dr. Jenn Simmons: I was put here to forever change how we diagnose, how we treat, and how we screen for breast cancer. The way that we have been doing it, the way that we have been approaching it is wrong. And we need to get back to that woman sitting in front of us because she deserves the right thing. She deserves our care. Dr. Jenn Simmons: She deserves hope. You have so much more power than you think. Do not give that power away to someone who does not have your best interest at heart. This is all about building health. And health does not happen in a doctor's office. It doesn't happen in a chemotherapy suite and a radiation suite. Health happens at home with the things that you do every day, and only you can make you healthy. Dr. Taz: Wow, that's powerful, and I hope everybody listening or watching can spread this message, right? Absolutely. How long will it, in your estimation, is it gonna take for this standard of care? To become the standard of care. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Things are changing, right. I mean, the old guard is still the old guard. Right. And I think unless you have a real reason to change, most people are, they're just walking through their lives. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right, right, Dr. Taz: right. Dr. Jenn Simmons: But the, the, the young up and comers. They're from a different place. They have a different perspective. Yeah, I noticed that too. Yeah. And they're curious and I think that that's the main thing for all of us, is that we all have to maintain curiosity. Yeah. Because as the information changes and it's changing every day, as the information changes, our minds have to change. Dr. Jenn Simmons: And we have to be co, you have to be open and Dr. Taz: flexible. This is crazy that you only walk between two lines. Yes. When it comes to something as complex as our, as our bodies Dr. Jenn Simmons: and think about, you know, this is what we talk about. In the wellness space, right? In the longevity space, right, is that you have to maintain flexibility. Dr. Jenn Simmons: That's what keeps you young. That's what can continues to connect your mind and your body and your spirit. Mm-hmm. It's that flexibility and we need to expand that across the board to how we treat it, love to how we think about things, to how we build our health. Dr. Taz: Well that is the mission of Whole Plus. So I could talk to you probably for three more hours. Dr. Taz: However, I don't wanna leave you without asking you this question. What makes you whole? Dr. Jenn Simmons: You know, in the older I get, the more that I value my family. Mm-hmm. My my, I'm gonna cry like my beautiful husband, my, my grandchildren, my religion. It's everything to me. Yeah. You can me cry. Yeah. So I mean, it's just that the, ah, the more you walk on this earth, the smaller your world ends up getting. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. Because what all you want in the end is that beautiful relationship with the people that you love the most. Dr. Taz: You know, we have so many guests on this show and everyone comes back to family. I think family is the heart and the home and our sustenance and our fuel. It's my mission to heal families. Dr. Taz: It's my mission to get these messages out, to bring flexibility and creativity back to medicine. I could not be more honored to have you here today, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And where can people find you? Yes, Dr. Jenn Simmons: absolutely. So. The Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer. You can get this at Amazon. Dr. Jenn Simmons: If you are looking for help on your breast cancer journey, real health md.com. I also have a podcast that's called Keeping Abreast with Dr. Jen. We put out a new episode every week. You are going to see Dr. TAs on there very soon. And then if you are looking for that scam that I was talking about, perfection imaging and perfection is spelled with QT in the middle and you can find me on all the social channels at Dr. Dr. Jenn Simmons: Jen Simmons. And my Jen has two ends. Dr. Taz: Amazing. Thank you again, and thank you everyone else for listening and watching. I'm hoping this message spreads out there and we really educate women on breast health and breast care, and that it's actually a message of hope, not fear. Yes, yes. Thank you. Absolutely. Dr. Taz: Thank you. Thank you so much for listening and watching today's episode of Whole Plus, be sure to share this episode with your friends and family, and if you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe to this podcast on YouTube, or click the follow button on Apple, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcast. Dr. Taz: Don't forget to follow me on all social channels at Dr. Taz md. Until next time, stay healthy and stay whole.