Latest / The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast / Networking for Introverts: Building Relationships Without Burning Out | Justin Volman

Transcript

Networking for Introverts: Building Relationships Without Burning Out | Justin Volman · The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast

• 0:00
  When I used to, do networking I would have panic attacks.
• 0:02
  I would be like, my God, there's so many people,
• 0:04
  Like I don't know small talk.
• 0:06
  Yeah.
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  able to build relationships and realizing that just because I am an introvert doesn't mean I still can't build those relationships.
• 0:12
  You have kind of your key points that you want to hit.
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  You're not trying to kind of think of things on the spot like, where do I go next with this conversation?
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  Alumni are much more likely to respond to that cold outreach.
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  Where are you from?
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  What do you do?
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  where did you go to school?
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  those three questions, you would usually, find something in common with them within that.
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  Being an active listener not talking all about yourself, but letting them speak.
• 0:31
  It makes it that much easier where you're not having to kind of pull that information out of them.
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  We're all human beings, trying to learn, trying to grow and you know, be seen at the end of the day.
• 0:55
  Here we go with another episode of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning podcast.
• 0:58
  My name is Rick Meekins.
• 0:59
  I'm your host today.
• 1:00
  And in our studio, we have Justin Volman.
• 1:02
  How are you today, sir?
• 1:03
  I'm doing good, Rick.
• 1:04
  How about you?
• 1:05
  I'm doing fantastic.
• 1:06
  I'm doing fantastic.
• 1:07
  I'm appreciating this this rainy weather here in Georgia.
• 1:10
  You said it's starting to get hot up there in Maryland, right?
• 1:12
  Yes.
• 1:13
  Yeah, the DMV spring quickly turns into DMV summer and it's a very quick shift.
• 1:18
  So yeah, the humidity's here and thankfully it's not ninety and humid yet, but we're we're getting close.
• 1:22
  I hear ya.
• 1:23
  I hear ya.
• 1:24
  Folks, and welcome again to the show.
• 1:25
  If you haven't done it already, would you please like, subscribe, and hit the bell so that you can get updates every time we drop a new episode?
• 1:31
  And without further ado, let's get to
• 1:33
  it.
• 1:33
  So Justin, why don't you give us a little bit of background on who you are, what you do, and why you do what you do.
• 1:39
  Of course.
• 1:40
  So a little bit of background on myself.
• 1:42
  I'm a third generation entrepreneur.
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  So I saw my dad run his own solo practitioner legal practice for thirty five years.
• 1:48
  in my earlier ages, I was, answering the phone at his law office and, learned that customer service voice very quickly.
• 1:53
  and prior to that, my grandmother ran her own marketing company.
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  So I got a really, great first degree education on you know what it's like to be a business owner, from a very young age and
• 2:02
  it was always at either my dad's office or my grandmother's office.
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  And my grandfather worked for my dad for a period of time.
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  So really got to see, how businesses can be, run how they can involve family members and friends and just, you know, grow organically that way.
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  so I'm a third generation entrepreneur, a two-time founder.
• 2:18
  So I started my first business ten years ago, grew it to 200 people in seven different countries over three years and
• 2:24
  Really led me into the HR strategy career that I'm in today.
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  I really loved building those infrastructures, the company building, really just, creating more opportunities for everyone, in specific space.
• 2:33
  And so, ran that business for three years, then relocated to the DC, Maryland area, became an executive recruiter in the staffing world, saw all the different sides of it.
• 2:41
  and then prior to starting this new business last March.
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  I did an internal recruiting strategy for a local Maryland-based nonprofit and helped them double in size from about 450 employees when I joined to over a thousand now.
• 2:52
  And so over this last decade, I've become a four-time award-winning HR strategist and company builder who's hired over a thousand people across seven different countries in
• 3:01
  less than 10 years.
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  So it's been a busy last decade.
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  grew up in Connecticut originally and then did my undergrad at the University of Alabama, where I started my first business.
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  And
• 3:09
  met my now wife and now have been based in the D C Maryland area for the past seven years now.
• 3:13
  Wow, that's beautiful.
• 3:14
  I love this conversation and and like last time you just say these things so humbly.
• 3:17
  I I built a two hundred person everybody does that.
• 3:20
  I know it, you know.
• 3:23
  Congratulations.
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  Thank you.
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  I appreciate that.
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  And being a two time founder, I mean I learned a lot from running that first business.
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  I was a college student who just didn't know what he didn't know and had two hundred people looking to him for the answers and you know I didn't have them.
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  So, I've tried to really, make sure I have a solid foundation for, this new business that I started last March, Volman HR Strategy and really take all the knowledge that I've
• 3:41
  gained from
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  Whether it's hiring for my first business, hiring for others' businesses as a third party or hiring internally, I've kind of seen it from all different angles.
• 3:49
  And so really the focus of Volman HR Strategy is to take the frustration out of attracting, hiring, and retaining talent for businesses, while also taking the frustration
• 3:57
  out of the job search for job seekers.
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  So at the end of the day, trying to build a bridge between the two and make it easier for those employers that, need their talent to move that business forward and, make it easier
• 4:05
  on those job seekers that, are looking for those opportunities to move their lives forward as well.
• 4:09
  Yeah, that that is so that is so critical.
• 4:11
  Like with today's with today's job market, I mean it's just so tough.
• 4:15
  I just keep hearing stories over and over.
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  It's I got to my last interview and they select somebody else.
• 4:20
  And it's just it's heartbreaking to hear Um, I wanna hear about like some of your early lessons though.
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  You you talked about your grandmother's marketing firm.
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  what was the story?
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  in your life, where, you know, that it it impacted the way that you think about business now.
• 4:33
  Yeah.
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  So I think, both with my grandmother's business and my my dad's business, I really saw how employees could become kind of members of the family.
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  They could become, friends that, you know, they talked to for years.
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  a great example of that is my grandmother had this, great person that was working for her.
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  my grandmother became like a bit of a like a surrogate mother for her.
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  And this employee was getting married and she invited
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  know, my grandparents and me and my brother to the wedding.
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  And so, we went to the wedding of one of my grandmother's employees and on, the other side of my dad.
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  He's had he just sold his practice at the end of this last year.
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  He had the same paralegal for probably 30 out of the 35 years that he was running that business.
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  And she was at, all my bar mitzvah, my brother and my bar mitzvah.
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  She was at different family events and graduation parties and just really saw how, you know.
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  you can really build those bonds within an organization that can really become, friends, family, long time, people that, they're not just your employees anymore.
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  You know, they're, friend family friends, they're, close confidants.
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  And so that was, I think, a really big lesson I learned, very early on is, you need to really treat, the people that work for you, like you would your family members.
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  And obviously if you treat your family members well at the end of the day, it's all about, treating people how you want to be treated at the end of the day.
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  And I think I saw how
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  My dad and my grandmother, treated all their employees with kindness and understanding.
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  And, I think it really reflected in, just the longevity of the employees that would stay there, decades and just, you know, people just, really enjoyed working, for my dad, for my
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  grandmother.
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  And so that was a really big thing I learned, from very young age.
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  And another lesson I learned, I think the reason I'm, now a two time founder is, I saw the freedom that being your own boss, you know, had.
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  You know, I think
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  It was always, you know, my dad did not make looking or being a lawyer look like fun.
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  He always talked about how he did not like being a lawyer.
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  But I think, the things that he enjoyed was having that freedom.
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  And, he could always line up, his vacations with our school vacations.
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  He was always always able to come to, our different sporting events and things of that nature.
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  And you know, that was the part that was always, I think, really attractive to me was, building something on your own and, really having that freedom to, you know, not have to
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  answer to anyone and just, really be able to build, the vision that you see fit.
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  and my dad, he's a multi-time founder too.
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  You know, he was halfway through, maybe about fifteen years ago, he got to that point where he's like, Maybe I could run a a sports bar because he's a big sports fan.
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  And him and my uncle and another couple of people went in on it and it didn't go well.
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  You know, it was they they shut their doors after a year.
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  Um, but that I think was a good lesson for my dad that, just because he's good at one sector of assist doesn't mean that, it's not it's necessarily successful in another side.
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  So, you know, I've kind of seen
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  though.
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  it is.
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  yeah, the restaurant industry is very tough.
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  even when my dad was thinking about that, I was like, Are you are you sure you want to do that?
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  And I was in high school at the time.
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  I like, Are you sure?
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  That's that's a lot.
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  he went through with it and I think he it was a good experience for him.
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  But, I've seen those lessons of, you know, businesses that succeed, businesses that fail, and you know, learned a lot from both sides and kind of what, leads to success or what
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  leads to failure.
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  And it just always gave me that resiliency as well to, you know, like, you know.
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  your business fails, that doesn't mean that, you know, you have to be a failure the rest of your life.
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  You know, you can pick yourself up and, build that next business.
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  you talked about employees and and treating employees like family.
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  and and I I love that.
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  my team, you know, it's they they've always been my different teams, you know, over the years have been very, very important to me.
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  And, I've been involved, you know, in in their lives.
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  The the hard the opposite side of that though is, you know, those difficult employees.
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  You know, did you have an opportunity to see like your dad or your or your grandmother, you know, have to deal with
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  someone that, you know, or some folks that, you know, just weren't a good fit for the organization and and how'd they handle that?
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  Yeah, so my dad definitely dealt with that a couple of times.
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  mainly it seemed to be or this one example was an attorney.
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  So he brought another attorney for his firm and the attorney unfortunately you know, started stealing and you know, was not, you know, doing things ethically.
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  And so my dad, you know, had to let him go.
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  and you know, the guy, you know, went and started his own firm and was still, you know, doing the same, you know, not great things.
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  And so I think, you know, I've seen
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  my dad and my grandmother and my grandfather were always you know willing to give people, you know, one, two, three chances.
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  You know, they were always trying to help people.
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  You know, there was I think a good example of one of the paralegals that worked for my dad and my grandmother at different times, you know, ten years before they hired him, you
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  know, he was in he was a lawyer himself and got, you know, in trouble for embezzling from clients' accounts and, you know, served time for it.
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  And they didn't hold that against him.
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  You know, they, you know, gave him that chance to, you know, be able to rebuild his career and his life and
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  you know, he was at my engagement party last year.
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  And so it kind of shows that, you know, when you give people those second chances, you know, it can really pay dividends, you know, in the long run.
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  And you know, but I definitely saw my dad have those tough conversations, whether it was with clients or with, you know, employees.
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  I mean, you know, I think another good example of this is, you know, the paralegal that has been with him for thirty years.
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  at one point he had also hired her sister.
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  and so he had both, you know, you know, they were both working as paralegals for him.
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  And, you know, at one point, you know, the business had a downturn, you know, during the 08 recession and the housing crisis.
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  And he had to, you know, lay people off in his office.
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  And one of them was, you know, this paralegal sister.
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  And, you know, it could have been, you know, a horrible situation.
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  You know, the paralegal could have also decided to leave.
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  You know, you're getting rid of my sister, you know, I'm gone too.
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  But I think the way that my dad, you know, approached it, you know, and was really like, you know, if I could.
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  keep you on, I would because you know, I've really enjoyed working with you.
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  You know, it's just, you know, a result of the economy and you know where we're at as a business.
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  And so, you know, that person, you know, that paralegal still stayed with my dad for, you know, decades longer and, you know, didn't hold that, you know, against him that, you
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  know, he had had to lay off her sister.
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  And so I think that, you know, just kind of shows when you treat people as people, you know, as human beings and you understand that, you know, they're not just kind of, you
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  know, robots or worker bees that can come in and just, you know, be expected to do everything and
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  not be affected by the things in their personal lives.
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  You know, I think that's something I always saw as well, where my dad and my grandmother and my grandfather really gave their employees grace to, you know, deal with things, you
• 10:16
  know, from a personal standpoint.
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  And, you know, if they need to come in late or they need to go to a doctor's appointment or take their, you know, mother to a doctor's appointment or their husband or whatever it
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  might be, you know, that always came first.
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  You know, family always came first, you know, business came second.
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  And I think that was always a really important lesson to learn as well as a business owner is, you know,
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  We're not just our businesses, we're more than that.
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  And you know, I think at the end of the day, no one's like, I wish I had worked at the end of my life.
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  That's why I wish I'd done, you more with friends, family, you know, the things that they love at the end of the day.
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  And so I think that was another really important lesson that, you know, business is not first, you know, family's first.
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  And, you know, it's really important that you have those clear separations and not, you know, let the business side, you know, you know, blend into the personal side and vice
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  versa.
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  That's it.
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  a tough one.
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  The you know, you you put so much effort, you know, and you know, as as a leader, as a founder, I mean, you've got to put effort into investing in your team, into you know,
• 11:06
  being loyal to them and building that trust and that sort of thing.
• 11:08
  And then you get to the point where, you know, as you described in two thousand eight, you have to do some layoffs.
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  And the and the and the layoffs in that situation aren't just, you know, they're not numbers.
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  These are people that you know that you work with every day.
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  You know, what what did you learn from watching your father
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  to lay off?
• 11:23
  Yeah.
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  How did that go?
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  Yeah, I mean, it was it was definitely tough.
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  you know, especially during, you know, that that housing crisis.
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  I mean, a lot of my dad's business was in the real estate market.
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  And so when that dried up, you know, it was definitely, you know, lean years, you know, from a business perspective.
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  And, you know, I think what I learned from seeing my dad go through that was, you know, he didn't necessarily let it affect, you know, how he was, you know.
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  Treating me, my mom, my brother, you know, when we were at home.
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  You know, he wasn't, you know, taking the frustrations out of the economy, you know, on us.
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  And, you know, just being able to kind of separate, you know, the business from the home length, I think was really important.
• 11:58
  but also just seeing how he kind of, you know, was able to steer the ship through this crisis and build the business back up and, you know, get it back to where it was.
• 12:04
  And you know, he did such a great job, I think, of investing in talent, you know, throughout the years, where he was always having high school students or law students or
• 12:11
  college students, you know, intern for him and
• 12:13
  you know, learn things from him.
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  And, you know, at the end of the day, when he sold his practice at the end of this past year, it was to a law student who 20-something years ago had interned for my dad, heard
• 12:23
  that my dad wanted to retire and sell his firm and bought the firm for my dad.
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  So, you know, I think I also saw how in investing in that talent, you know, at a you know, a very, you know, early stage from a company can really pay off dividends in the long run.
• 12:35
  When you develop it and
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  You're trying to, you know, really have that servant mindset where you're always trying to figure out, okay, how can I help someone else, you know, get the same opportunities that I
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  have.
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  you know, I think I saw that a lot with both my grandmother and my dad.
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  And I think the reasons that they did it was, you know, my grandmother was the first, you know, member of her family to go to college.
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  You know, both of her parents were immigrants, they didn't speak English.
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  and she was the first one to graduate college and did so when pregnant with my dad.
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  So she was able to, you know, go through with that and, you know, you know, go through that challenge and
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  You know, my dad, you know, always likes to say, you know, him and his, you know, my grandparents they didn't have a lot of money growing up.
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  You know, they were always, you know, trying to figure out how to help people.
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  And even though they didn't have money, they were always, you know, helping out other people's friends and family members and just, you know, giving them that, you know, extra
• 13:16
  leg up.
• 13:16
  'cause my grandfather, he had to basically kind of take over the family when he was fifteen, because his dad died when he was fifteen years old.
• 13:23
  And so he had to drop out of high school and, you know, support everyone in his family.
• 13:27
  And so I think that just ingrained a really, you know.
• 13:30
  work ethic within all of our family members, but also that caring mindset of, you we're not gonna leave anyone behind.
• 13:35
  You know, we're gonna try to, you know, lift everyone else up as well with us.
• 13:38
  And so those are, you know, some definitely some really important lessons that I learned from, you know, just seeing that, you know, you need to treat people as people because you
• 13:45
  never know, you know, how you treat someone can pay off, you know, in good ways down the road.
• 13:49
  So, you know, I definitely learned a lot, you know, by seeing those situations.
• 13:52
  I bet.
• 13:53
  I bet.
• 13:53
  What one of one of the challenges that we face as entrepreneurs, especially in in the startup phase, is being able to manage the different areas of our lives.
• 14:03
  You know, we've got our business and we've got our family
• 14:06
  What do you think is a great approach to being able to I don't know, I'm not gonna use balance but yeah, I mean synchronize it if you will.
• 14:14
  No, I definitely, you know, agree with that a hundred percent.
• 14:17
  And I think, you know, that was one of the mistakes I made with my first business, you know, and that led to me being burnt out where I was, you know, working all the time.
• 14:23
  There wasn't that separation from work and you know, personal life.
• 14:26
  And you know, at the time I was running a two-interperson company, everyone else, you know, everyone was remote.
• 14:31
  So, you know, usually the most times we could meet was like Sunday nights.
• 14:34
  And so
• 14:34
  There just wasn't that separation of you know the personal life and the professional life.
• 14:38
  And part of that was, you know, being a college student trying to balance you know courses and graduation and running a business and you know all those different things.
• 14:45
  And so, you know, to r I've really been cognizant since I started this business last March to really not, you know, make those same mistakes and really create those boundaries
• 14:54
  where, you know, I've worked from home, you know, when it was my first business during COVID, you know, for other businesses as well, and you know, with this business too.
• 15:02
  And so.
• 15:02
  I think it's really important, especially for those of us that, you know, work from home, you know, you need to have those separations.
• 15:07
  And so at five o'clock every night, you know, I'm turning my email notifications off.
• 15:11
  I'm not seeing anything until the next day.
• 15:13
  I think that's important, you know, especially if you're not, you know, an EMT or a you an ER doctor, you know, the difference between responding to that email in 24 hours or not is
• 15:21
  not the difference between life and death.
• 15:23
  And so I think that's always an important boundary that I really try to set where
• 15:27
  You if I have an early networking event one morning, you know, maybe I'm gonna, you know, start a little bit later the next day.
• 15:31
  And just, you know, kind of being that, you know, boss you wish you would have had.
• 15:34
  And you know, being that good boss to yourself, I think is very important.
• 15:37
  I think we can't sometimes forget that when we're those business owners that, you know, even though we are our own bosses, you know, we're our own bosses.
• 15:43
  So we can treat ourselves with, you know, kindness and respect and not make us work till, you know, two AM every night and then be up at five AM.
• 15:50
  You know, I think setting those boundaries are so important because you know, if you're burnt out and you can't run the business, you know.
• 15:55
  efficiently and effectively, you know, the business is going to suffer.
• 15:58
  You know, your team members are going to suffer.
• 16:00
  And so it's really important just to make sure that you have that strong work-life balance because, you know, like I said earlier, you know, no one wishes they would have worked
• 16:07
  more at the end of their lives.
• 16:08
  They wish they would have done you know other things and done things that they loved.
• 16:11
  And so, you know, I think that that's been a really big key part of it is just really making sure that I have that clean separation.
• 16:16
  And even though I'm working in the same place that I'm living, you know, I'm trying to get out of that work mindset, you know, shutting my email notifications off, my LinkedIn
• 16:23
  notifications.
• 16:24
  I'm not seeing anything business related, you know, until I turn those email notifications off the next day when my alarm goes off.
• 16:29
  So that's been a really big thing that I've been really cognizant of, you know, since I started this business last March to really prevent, you know, just that feeling of
• 16:36
  burnout, feeling of, you know, being drained and just feeling like there's no separation between, you know, the business and the personal.
• 16:42
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:43
  I I I always think about um burnout also from the perspective of progress.
• 16:48
  You know, it's like, you know, we're doing the thing, we're out here, we're grinding every day and it's just like, you know, I am not, you know, seeing this needle move.
• 16:54
  Have you have you ever gone through that uh that type of
• 16:57
  I mean, with my first business, you know, it was college students trying to pitch to Major League Baseball organizations of why we wanted to do scouting differently.
• 17:05
  And, you know, not that they were doing anything wrong, but just that there was not enough people to see all the players that they were trying to see.
• 17:10
  Where there is, you know, one scout seeing three states, and you know, you can't be everywhere at once.
• 17:14
  You can't, you know, be, you know, 20 different games at once.
• 17:16
  And so, you know, it took, you know, some time for the needle to move on that side, but I think, you know.
• 17:21
  The thing that I saw for both that business and this business was, you know, networking, you know, the connections I was able to make.
• 17:26
  And so the impetus for that first business was I did a internship with the one of the Cape Cod League summer baseball teams and basically was the liaison between the team and all
• 17:36
  the major league baseball scouts.
• 17:38
  So I was able to make you know a lot of great connections, you know, really, you know, develop a lot of those ideas while having those conversations with those different, you
• 17:45
  know, scouts or major league baseball executives.
• 17:47
  And then I did a
• 17:48
  sports technology internship for a company called Trackman where I met a couple other interns who, you know, ended up founding the company with me.
• 17:54
  And so, you know, I was able to really find people that, you know, thought similarly to me and really, you know, allowed me to, you know, kind of, you know, build the organization
• 18:02
  up.
• 18:02
  But I think, you know, it kind of all comes back to those conversations where, you know, the client that my first major league baseball client was someone that I met, you know, at
• 18:10
  when I was a Cape League summer intern and we continued the conversation and, you know, he was interested in, you know, what I was building.
• 18:16
  And so
• 18:16
  You know, having that, you know, just that approval, you know, from a major league baseball, you know, team, you know, I think really helped set, you know, us on this road
• 18:24
  to success.
• 18:25
  You know, going back and looking at now, I wish I had done you know, kind of indust not industry, division exclusivity, kind of like, you know, turn the competitive against each
• 18:32
  other and be like, you know, whoever signs up for this first is the only one in the division that can, you know, get this data and probably would have made a couple of the
• 18:38
  other teams move a little bit quicker.
• 18:39
  But um, you know, definitely learned a lot from that experience and you know, similarly with this new business.
• 18:45
  You know, my first client for this was a a result of networking.
• 18:47
  You know, I was on a a TEDco webinar call, you know, just to learn about their different investment programs.
• 18:53
  And another person was on it.
• 18:54
  He's like, I'm a company scout for a technology company.
• 18:57
  I was like, that sounds interesting.
• 18:58
  Let me follow up and chat with that guy.
• 19:00
  Met with him, learned he was a score business mentor, and he's like, I'm supporting this mental health therapy practice in Virginia and Maryland.
• 19:06
  You know, they need some HR help.
• 19:07
  Would you meet with them?
• 19:08
  Met with that therapy business owner, and that became my first client.
• 19:11
  So
• 19:12
  I think the kind of the through line through each of the you know two businesses I've started has been really about you know building those relationships and just showing up
• 19:19
  and you know connecting with people.
• 19:21
  And it doesn't come naturally to me.
• 19:22
  I'm not an an extrovert.
• 19:24
  My dad is the extrovert, my grandmother, my brother are.
• 19:27
  They'll walk into any room and within seconds they're talking to, you know, every person in the room, you know, strangers, you know, doesn't matter if they know them or not.
• 19:33
  Whereas I definitely take more after my mom, where she was a college librarian for a number of years, you know, definitely more introverted and
• 19:39
  So it's really something I've had to learn.
• 19:40
  You know, it's not easy for me to, you know, go into a remote people that, you know, I don't know.
• 19:44
  I have to really, you know, kind of psych myself up and you know, get myself into that, you know, networking head of headspace to, you know, be able to, you know, be successful
• 19:52
  in that side.
• 19:52
  So I think that's the thing that I really saw is you know how I could make it a skill, you know, from a networking perspective and just, you know, Being able to build relationships
• 20:00
  and realizing that just because I'm I am an introvert doesn't mean I still can't build those relationships.
• 20:04
  And
• 20:05
  you know, I think that was a really big thing that really helped both of the businesses, you know, grow was just really, you know, showing up, you know, connecting with people and
• 20:12
  you know, just showing that I'm in this for the human side too.
• 20:14
  I'm not just in this to, you know, make a lot of money and then be done and leave everyone behind.
• 20:17
  You know, I really want to make sure that, you know, for both of my businesses and you know the work that I'm doing that, you know, I'm leaving the the space better than what
• 20:24
  was before.
• 20:24
  Do do you have tips for for people um like for introverts, like what what you what made you successful?
• 20:31
  in, you know, just connecting with people?
• 20:32
  I mean, you've you've got a great you know, personality and way with people, very authentic way, but I mean what what are some things I I find we find a lot of times, you
• 20:40
  know, you know, people have their their five steps, you know, you need to do this, that you know what what have you learned?
• 20:45
  What's been your experience?
• 20:46
  What's worked for you?
• 20:47
  Yeah, great question.
• 20:48
  So I think, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of times I have the same conversations with different people.
• 20:54
  And that makes it a little bit easier.
• 20:55
  So, going back to my campus recruiting days, I was talking with, lots of students, regular basis, you know, telling them about the organization that I was a part of and, why they
• 21:02
  should come work at, this organization.
• 21:04
  And so I think, for lack of a better term of script, You have kind of your key points that you want to hit.
• 21:08
  It makes it a little bit easier.
• 21:10
  So that way You're not trying to kind of think of things on the spot and you know, you're not trying to be like, okay, where do I go next with this conversation?
• 21:16
  I found that to be really helpful where, it kind of becomes more of that like learned habit where you're like, okay, these are the questions that I want, you know, answers to,
• 21:23
  you know, these are the things I'm gonna ask, but still keeping it, in an organic, relatable way.
• 21:27
  So it's not like I'm putting them through a you know list of you know, pre, selected questions or something of that nature.
• 21:32
  So that's been really helpful.
• 21:33
  And I think the other biggest thing that I've learned is, you know.
• 21:36
  Rejection is okay.
• 21:37
  if that person doesn't respond to that message, it doesn't mean that, you know, they hate you or that they'll never buy from you.
• 21:42
  You know, sometimes they just miss it.
• 21:44
  And it's okay to follow up with people and, you know, check back in.
• 21:46
  but another big thing that I really and I help this with job seekers as well, is try to find people that you already have multiple things in common with.
• 21:53
  And so I love, you know, using alumni bases as an example of that, where for a lot of people, you know, those four years as an undergrad or some of the, you know,
• 22:01
  most formative years of their lives.
• 22:02
  And so I've always found Alumni are much more likely to respond to that cold outreach.
• 22:07
  because you already have multiple things in common with them.
• 22:08
  You went to the same university, you're in the same industry.
• 22:11
  And I think that makes those conversations easier because you're not going into it kind of blind of like, I don't know anything about this person.
• 22:17
  They know nothing about me.
• 22:18
  We have nothing in common.
• 22:19
  You already have something in common.
• 22:21
  You already have something that you can kind of build that relationship from.
• 22:23
  And I saw that with my dad, you know, throughout the years.
• 22:26
  He usually asked, you know,
• 22:27
  same three questions to every stranger who would meet, you know, Where are you from?
• 22:30
  What do you do?
• 22:31
  And you know, where did you go to school?
• 22:32
  And within those three questions, you would usually, you know, find something in common with them within that.
• 22:36
  And so I think that's the really another big important thing that I found is, you know, listening and just Being an active listener and just not talking all about yourself, but
• 22:45
  really showing that you're interested in learning about them and just kind of letting them speak.
• 22:48
  Because I think that's where you learn the most is when you let someone kind of talk about themselves and what are their challenges, you know, what are the things that are going
• 22:55
  well and
• 22:56
  know, It makes it that much easier where you're not having to kind of pull that information out of them.
• 22:59
  You know, they're just, you know, kind of giving it to you willingly.
• 23:01
  And so I think that that was a really big thing that I had to learn was just, you know, it's okay if someone does, you know, says no and just doesn't want to have the
• 23:09
  conversation.
• 23:09
  Yeah, there's gonna be, you know, hundreds of other people that, you know, do want to have that conversation and are willing to, you know, give that time.
• 23:15
  And those are the people that you want to surround yourself with at the end of the day.
• 23:18
  You know, when I started my first business,
• 23:20
  Or not that's the first business, but when I started this business last March before I started, I talked with a lot of other consultants in the space just to learn, you know,
• 23:26
  how did they build their businesses, what led them to success.
• 23:28
  And, you know, so many people were so generous with their time with me.
• 23:31
  And, you know, the thing that always kept coming back was referrals, you know, building that network and those centers of influences that can send you business.
• 23:37
  And I saw that with my dad for a number of years and my grandmother's business, you know, just the relationships that you're able to build, you know, with your businesses, you
• 23:44
  know, can come back in, you know, incredible ways.
• 23:46
  And another great example of this is.
• 23:48
  I interned with someone at a track man.
• 23:50
  now, you know, ten years later, one of his best friends is local to this area.
• 23:56
  He is now runs his own HR company and we connected and now we're in the same fantasy baseball league again.
• 24:01
  And he's like, How did you know like these things?
• 24:03
  I was like, I was friends with your friend.
• 24:04
  And so it's it's amazing, you know, kind of how, you know, the world is, you know, not as disconnected as we think it is.
• 24:10
  You know, there's so many things that link us and bond us and
• 24:12
  you know, I think also just realizing that, you know, everyone's a human being at the end of the day, you know, just because that person's you know older than you or in a position
• 24:18
  that's higher than you doesn't mean you can't have a conversation with them because We're all human beings, we're all trying to learn, we're all trying to grow and you know, be
• 24:25
  seen at the end of the day.
• 24:26
  And so I think that's one of the biggest things that I've kind of approached the networking side that's been helpful for me, but also having like a networking, you know,
• 24:33
  partner or buddy that you can go with who's like, you know, have you met this person or you know, you know, Justin, you should meet this person, that's always helpful.
• 24:40
  especially if you're, you know, struggle to kind of initiate those conversations, you know, having someone with you that maybe is a little bit more extroverted or just a little
• 24:46
  bit more familiar with the group of people that you're meeting with, you know, that can go a long way and just kind of help so that way it's just it doesn't feel like it's just you
• 24:54
  against this group of people.
• 24:55
  You know, you have someone that can be kind of that, you know, networking partner and just make things a little bit easier at the end of the day for you.
• 25:00
  Good stuff, good stuff.
• 25:02
  I I love the I love the active listening.
• 25:04
  That's that's just I find that to be so critical.
• 25:06
  That's so critical.
• 25:08
  You've been down the uh so you've been on the on the entrepreneurial journey, you know, for quite a while, and you've been through the entire life cycle.
• 25:14
  You know, you start business, you grow it, you you get to a certain point, you close it, et cetera, et cetera.
• 25:19
  What are some important things, you know, as an entrepreneur, we can learn from your experiences?
• 25:25
  Yeah, great question.
• 25:26
  So I think the first and foremost thing, and this is something I saw with both of my businesses that I started, is just how many resources that are out there for business
• 25:33
  owners from a completely free perspective.
• 25:36
  Um so when I was an undergrad, I utilized the University of Alabama's you know entrepreneurship incubator.
• 25:41
  actually ended up winning the startup competition through the university.
• 25:44
  You know, it didn't cost me anything to enter, but I was able to, you know, win a good amount of money that was able to, you know, move my business in the right direction.
• 25:51
  and so I think that that's a really big thing that, you know, is just taking advantage of all the resources that are out there.
• 25:56
  You know, with this new business that I started last March, I utilized the small business development centers in Maryland that are, you know, all throughout the US, as well as
• 26:03
  SCORE, which is a great, you know, free business mentorship resource.
• 26:06
  And so
• 26:07
  You know, honestly wish I had utilized those resources more when I started my first business.
• 26:10
  I just didn't really know about them.
• 26:12
  But, you know, I made sure to know about them before I started this second business.
• 26:15
  And so, you know, I think that that's a a big thing that I always try to help, you know, other you know, fellow new entrepreneurs or business owners learn about is just all the
• 26:22
  great resources that are out there that don't have to cost you an arm and a leg.
• 26:26
  You don't have to take out, you know, a loan against your house to, you know, have someone look over your business plan or you know, look over your, you know, contracts or
• 26:32
  agreements.
• 26:33
  You know, there's, you know, lots of organizations out there, you know.
• 26:35
  Providing free support that can really, you know, help make a difference.
• 26:39
  And that way you feel like you're not just building it, you know, all on your own.
• 26:41
  So that's definitely something I always try to help, you know, new entrepreneurs and business owners, you know, just all let them know about all the resources that are out
• 26:48
  there that are designed to help you succeed.
• 26:51
  And, you know, whether it's free tradings or free webinars, I think you know, SBDC and SCORE do a great job of both where you can learn about the things that, you know, maybe
• 26:58
  you aren't sure about.
• 26:59
  you can get connected with those subject matter experts that can help walk you through it.
• 27:02
  And it's not gonna cost you.
• 27:03
  you know, anything at the end of the day.
• 27:05
  so that's a big thing that I always like to share with other, you know, new entrepreneurs is just, you know, this is how you kind of get the name out there.
• 27:11
  This is how you, you know, connect with people, and just, you know, how important networking is.
• 27:14
  You know, if you're just, you know, by yourself and you're not telling anyone about your business or anything, you know, you're no one's gonna find out about your business.
• 27:21
  You know, no one's gonna know about it.
• 27:22
  you know, especially in today's, you know, super digital age, you know, attention spans are so short that, you know, people just aren't, you know, kind of grasping information
• 27:29
  like they used to.
• 27:30
  And so
• 27:31
  I think it's so important just to kind of, you know, be showing up, going to different networking events, you know, coming to different things.
• 27:36
  There's so many free events out there as well that, you know, maybe you're the only one in your industry that shows up to that.
• 27:41
  And then you're the person that everyone wants to talk to because you're the only person, you know, from that industry there.
• 27:46
  And so I think that's been another big thing that I've learned that's been really helpful is just the power of connection and the power of building that network.
• 27:53
  where people can then send you business.
• 27:55
  There's people that are thinking of your business, you know, even when you're not in the room and thinking, you know, this person would be a good person to send, you know,
• 28:00
  Justin's way.
• 28:01
  And you know, I think just the benefits of, you know, being able to build those relationships.
• 28:05
  I was actually just at a Montgomery County had a annual barbecue or Montgomery County Society of Human Resources Management had their annual barbecue last night and invite all
• 28:13
  the other local Sherm chapters and
• 28:16
  There was a bunch of people that I, you had recognized and were friends with, but there were also two people that, you know, I'd helped for free when they were unemployed as job
• 28:22
  seekers.
• 28:22
  And they were there then with jobs.
• 28:24
  And Justin, you know, not sure if you remember me.
• 28:26
  And I I did remember them.
• 28:28
  and they were like, I'm in this job, I'm doing great.
• 28:30
  And, you know, that just makes it so, you know, that makes it all worthwhile.
• 28:33
  You know, even though I'm doing that side for free, you I'm investing in people and betting that, you know, these people are gonna find jobs and they're gonna go on and do
• 28:39
  great things and you know, they're gonna think kindly of the times that I helped them when I didn't have to.
• 28:42
  And
• 28:43
  you know, even when I was there, one of the job seekers, like, my friend's coming tonight.
• 28:46
  Could you meet with them?
• 28:47
  You know, they are they're looking for a change too.
• 28:49
  So you know, I think when you show people, like you said, that genuineness and you show that you're there to, you know, care about them and you want to help them, I think that
• 28:56
  really makes the difference, especially in today's world where everyone's like, you know, what's in it for me?
• 29:00
  You know, sometimes you need to ask, you know, what's in it for you?
• 29:02
  You know, what how how can I help you?
• 29:03
  How can we help each other?
• 29:04
  Um, because it's lonely as an entrepreneur, you know, especially if you're running your own business and you're a team of one like I am.
• 29:10
  You know, no one understands the stresses of being an entrepreneur like a fellow entrepreneur.
• 29:13
  So I just find it so beneficial to connect with other people in the space and just talk about the challenges that we're going through.
• 29:19
  And so that way it's not as isolating.
• 29:20
  You feel like, I'm the only one going through this issue when you know it's an issue that, you know, every business owner goes through and they need, you know, to see what, you
• 29:27
  know, the other business owners that did to, you know, solve that issue and what worked for them and what didn't work for them.
• 29:32
  And it'll save you a lot of time at the end of the day too, because you won't have to go down those rabbit holes that you know already didn't work for that other individual.
• 29:38
  So
• 29:39
  Another thing is collaboration, you know, finding those partners, finding those people that, you know, they're either do similar different parts of the industries to you and
• 29:46
  seeing how you can, you know, grow each other's businesses at the end of the day.
• 29:49
  I found that to be really beneficial and has really helped, you know, this new business take off, you know, by partnering with other, you know, solopreneurs or other small
• 29:56
  business owners in different areas and seeing how we can collaborate and send business each other's way.
• 30:01
  you know, that's been I think a really big part that I've
• 30:03
  You really tried to focus more and more on, you with this new business and seeing how we can collaborate and, you know, just build more partnerships to you know, make it easier
• 30:10
  for everyone at the end of the day.
• 30:11
  Mm, mm, yeah.
• 30:12
  Partnerships.
• 30:12
  I I think that's so important.
• 30:14
  Do you uh now you've also closed you closed one of your businesses and you know, I'm sure I'm sure you there were a lot of learnings around that as well.
• 30:21
  Can you share some of those?
• 30:22
  Yeah, of course.
• 30:23
  So you know, when I was in the process of shutting down the first business, I did have a couple of potential buyers lined up.
• 30:29
  And I wish I had gone about the process a little bit differently.
• 30:32
  you know, I probably should have done more forward thinking from like a financial projection standpoint and just kind of showing the value of the organization because, you
• 30:40
  know, I had these two buyers lined up, but they both wanted to offer me, you know, no money up front and wanted me to keep running the business.
• 30:45
  And so I think.
• 30:46
  lesson I learned very early on is okay, if the business can't survive without me, then it's not gonna be something that I can sell.
• 30:52
  And so I think that was something that I, you know, learned the hard way.
• 30:56
  but you know, I I probably would have had to shut down the business because of COVID anyway, just with amateur sports being canceled at that time.
• 31:02
  Um, but you know, it was tough.
• 31:03
  You know, it was tough having to tell all the scouts and people that worked for me that I believed in me that, you know, I was gonna have to shut the business down.
• 31:09
  And you know, I tried to be as transparent with them as possible, you know, letting them know that, you know,
• 31:14
  funding wasn't great.
• 31:15
  You know, we were, you know, kind of struggling from a financial aspect.
• 31:18
  And, you know, at one point my management team was like, you know, don't tell us these things.
• 31:22
  And I'm like, but I want I want you to know.
• 31:23
  Like I'm not trying to pull the rug out from under you and just, you know, have this come, you know, out of shock.
• 31:28
  You know, I want you all to know that, you know, this isn't easy.
• 31:30
  You know, this is, you know, I always made sure that everyone else was paid before me.
• 31:34
  I didn't take any pay or salary from my my first business because I wanted everyone else to be paid.
• 31:39
  And, you know, they were doing work for me that, you know, I wanted to compensate them for.
• 31:43
  So um
• 31:44
  know, that was a really, you know, lesson that I learned that, you know, with this new business, you know, it's just me, so I can pay myself now.
• 31:49
  So that also is important.
• 31:50
  Like I do a lot for other people, but I also need to make sure I take care of myself as well.
• 31:55
  you know, be able to pay my bills and, you know, things of that nature.
• 31:58
  but I definitely learned a lot when I shut down that first business and you know, wish I had been able to position it further for sale or even, you know, tried to have it be kind
• 32:05
  of acquired by one of the major league baseball teams that was one of our clients.
• 32:08
  So I think that could have been a good way to, you know, have that data live on, but
• 32:12
  you know, didn't know what I didn't know.
• 32:13
  You know, I was a, you know, college student trying to sell a business to, you know, other, you know, business owners.
• 32:18
  And, you know, at the time I was kind of on a time crunch because I was moving to Washington, DC at the time with my now wife and she had gotten into American University's
• 32:27
  master's programs.
• 32:28
  We needed to find an apartment in DC.
• 32:29
  And, you know, they need that proof of income of okay, this is how much you're gonna make and how you can afford this rent.
• 32:34
  And my wife was a, you know, master's student, so she didn't have a full time job.
• 32:38
  And so, you know, I needed to find a job that, you know,
• 32:40
  could pay me a salary, could give me health insurance, and that way I could, you know, get that, you know, apartment to rent for us.
• 32:46
  And so, you know, it was kind of you know, a lot of different things happening all at once.
• 32:50
  You know, we were moving from Alabama to DC.
• 32:52
  It just felt like a a time of transition and a time where I was like, you know, I d the stress is too much.
• 32:57
  It's it's not worth it anymore.
• 33:00
  because sports for me had always been an escape.
• 33:01
  You know, it was always one of my favorite things.
• 33:03
  You know, I grew up I was raised a crazy Boston sports fan in Yankee territory.
• 33:07
  So that
• 33:08
  That fandom and sports was always a big part of my life, you know, from a very early age.
• 33:12
  My dad's been to every Patriots Super Bowl since I was born, except for this last one.
• 33:17
  I've been to a couple with him.
• 33:18
  He's gone to World Series games, finals games.
• 33:20
  Like sports was just always such a big part of our lives.
• 33:23
  And so when it became my everyday from a business perspective, you know, you get exposed to some of those uglier sides of the business, and it just doesn't become as enjoyable
• 33:30
  anymore.
• 33:31
  And so
• 33:32
  I think that's also a thing where, you know, people are like, you should find what you love.
• 33:35
  And you know, I do really enjoy what I'm doing, but you still need to have it not be that thing that was that escape for you.
• 33:40
  So, you know, with my HR business, I still do work with sports organizations.
• 33:44
  I'm usually cross coach evenings and weekends, but it's not my all day every day.
• 33:47
  I'm not only focused on this specific, you know, sports industry.
• 33:50
  and so I'm allowed, I'm, you know, allowing myself to, you know, enjoy it again and you know, not feel like, I wish I could have done this or this.
• 33:56
  But
• 33:57
  you know, just being okay with failing because, you know, you talk to any business owner, entrepreneur, you know, they failed more than anyone.
• 34:02
  And, you know, it's they get back up, they, you know, build a new business and you it's what you learn, you know, from those failures that I think is really the key.
• 34:09
  And so, you know, I think I learned so much from that first business that I've really tried to, you know, make sure that I have that solid foundation, you know, going forward
• 34:16
  with this business and just, you know, really seeing how I can, you know, better position it.
• 34:20
  Down the road to, you know, do a sale and you know, similar to how my dad sold his practice or other people sell their businesses.
• 34:25
  So I want to have that, you know, lasting impact, you know, on all the blood, soot tears that you put into, you know, your business at the end of the day.
• 34:31
  So that was definitely a lesson I learned.
• 34:33
  you know, when I ran that first business and having to shut it down, unfortunately.
• 34:37
  you know, it was nothing related to the any of the efforts of, you know, the people that were working for me.
• 34:41
  You know, it was really just a big transition point in my life and you know, something that, you know, unfortunately needed to, you know, close so another door could open and I
• 34:49
  could, you know.
• 34:49
  find, you know, a different career and find ways to kind of do what I was doing the sports side, but, you know, more broadly for, you know, more businesses and, you know, help them
• 34:57
  like I've helped, you know, other organizations from a talent identification standpoint.
• 35:01
  Mm.
• 35:01
  Mm.
• 35:01
  Mm.
• 35:02
  That's r that's really courageous.
• 35:03
  I I talk to a number of entrepreneurs that, you know, they they they feel like they've got they've gotten to the point where the business is running them.
• 35:10
  And so, you know, they've got, you know, the employees and that sort of thing.
• 35:13
  And, you know, they they won't make that decision, that personal decision and say, Hey, you what, I need to step back from this because I'm dying here or, you know, what whatever
• 35:22
  that was.
• 35:23
  it's tough, you know, and because it it feels like failure.
• 35:27
  Um
• 35:28
  You know, we we alluded to the emotional weight of being an entrepreneur, you know, uh a number of times, you know, and sometimes it's just like getting up every day and showing
• 35:38
  up, or as you talked about going to the networking event, being an introvert, knowing your social battery only lasts a certain amount of time, et cetera, et cetera.
• 35:47
  Um, one of the one of the important questions uh I've asked folks and would love to get your input on is how do you
• 35:54
  What what are the things that you do to protect or maintain your emotional stability so that you can show up, so you can do all the things, so that you can make the right
• 36:04
  decisions, you know, for your business, you can know when you need to step back some time and say, Hey, I need a break.
• 36:10
  I need to get out of here.
• 36:11
  What what what are some what are some thoughts you have on that?
• 36:13
  No, that's a great point.
• 36:14
  And I think, you know, the biggest thing that I've seen the importance of is, you know, taking care of your mental health like you do your physical health.
• 36:20
  Because, you know, be I've been in therapy for, you know, over twelve years, you know, since I was, you know, g went to college.
• 36:26
  You know, I've been, you know, under psychiatric care since then too.
• 36:29
  And so
• 36:29
  You know, I think, you know, a lot of times people are like, you know, I'm not feeling well, you know, physically, you know, whether, you know, it's stress related to ulcers or
• 36:36
  things of that nature, but they're not dealing with that underlying cause of, you know, the anxiety, the depression, the imposter syndrome.
• 36:42
  And so I found it so beneficial, you know, to really make sure that I'm taking care of my mental health.
• 36:47
  You know, I meet with my therapist at least once a month, you know, same with my psychiatrist because, you know, I've seen how, you know, detrimental, you know, that those
• 36:54
  mental health issues can be and how, you know, much of a struggle that they can be to your point.
• 36:58
  If
• 36:58
  You know, your brain is telling you that you shouldn't get up, you know, out of bed that day.
• 37:01
  It makes it a lot harder to, you know, run that business.
• 37:03
  And, you know, it makes it that much difficult, more difficult to, you know, lead that group of people that you're trying to lead as well.
• 37:09
  And so that's been a really important thing for me has been, you know, really making sure that I'm taking care of my mental health.
• 37:14
  And I think it's just always helpful to have a third party kind of look at things for you and be like, you know, I know you're, you know, it feels like the end of the world for
• 37:21
  you.
• 37:21
  But think about, you know, and my psychiatrist said this to me, you know, a month or so ago.
• 37:25
  She's like,
• 37:26
  You're you just turned 30.
• 37:27
  These are all the things that you've done and you just turned 30.
• 37:30
  Like you're doing incredible.
• 37:32
  Even if right now in this point it doesn't feel like it, you know, you ask any, you know, you would quiz th five people on the street right now, you know, they'd all say, this
• 37:39
  person's doing incredible.
• 37:40
  And so I think, you know, that's been really helpful for me to just have someone that's not as, like you said, emotionally invested in the business and just, you know, giving
• 37:48
  their blood, sweat, and tears to it to say, it's okay.
• 37:50
  You know, failures are part of life.
• 37:51
  You know, not everything is gonna be, you know, up.
• 37:54
  And I think that was another
• 37:56
  you know, big thing I learned from another therapist was, you know, progress isn't always linear.
• 37:59
  You know, it's not always going to be straight up.
• 38:01
  You know, it's up and down and up and down.
• 38:03
  And just, you know, I think the things that I've learned is when it, you know, gets to that down point, you know, I know it's going to get back up.
• 38:09
  And I know, you know, what, you know, I did before to, you know, make sure that those, you know, downward spirals don't you know continue to go downward.
• 38:15
  And so I think to your point, you have to take care of yourself as that business owner.
• 38:19
  You know, you need to take care of your mental health like you do your physical health.
• 38:22
  and you'll feel a lot better because you know, if you were not to go to the doctors for your body for ten years, you know, probably there's gonna be a couple of things wrong.
• 38:29
  And if you're not going to the doctors to, you know, treat your brain at the end of the day, you know, a lot of those, you know, root causes of the things that are, you know,
• 38:35
  keeping you up at night, the stress, the anxiety, the depression, they're not gonna get solved.
• 38:40
  And so I think that's been a really important thing just to really unpack, you know, why I think the way that I do, you know, why certain intrusive thoughts come more readily than
• 38:48
  others.
• 38:48
  And, you know, then just you build those
• 38:50
  strategies to be able to deal with them and to be able to sit in that discomfort and know that it's gonna get better because you've been through it before and you know that, you
• 38:58
  know, it can do you know, it can be a better situation.
• 39:00
  You know, When I used to, you know, do networking or have to do these different things, you know, I would have panic attacks.
• 39:05
  You know, it was really tough.
• 39:06
  You know, I would be like, my God, there's so many people, like I can't talk to anyone.
• 39:10
  Like I one of the biggest barriers always for me was just like starting conversations.
• 39:14
  Like I don't I didn't want to be like that person imposing myself on someone and just being like,
• 39:18
  you know, hi, how are you?
• 39:19
  Like I just I was like, I don't know how how to do that.
• 39:21
  Like I don't know small talk.
• 39:22
  Like it just was very difficult for me.
• 39:23
  And so, you know, by getting, you know, that mental health support, you know, both from the therapy and the psychiatry aspect, you know, made it easier for me.
• 39:31
  You know, I take, you know, anxiety medication before I'm you know gonna go to a n networking event.
• 39:35
  So that way I don't feel, you know, that panic rising and can, you know, kind of, you know, have my, you know, hormone levels be, you know, more at that right level.
• 39:43
  And so I think it's it's just important that you take care of your body and your mind.
• 39:47
  because if you're, like you said, burnt out, you're exhausted, you're not able to get out of bed, your business is gonna suffer.
• 39:53
  And so I think that's a really important part is just, you know, setting those boundaries and just, you know, really taking care of your your mental and physical health.
• 40:00
  and there's another HR consultant who chaired this great I I love that he does this for his company.
• 40:05
  everyone in the company is not allowed to respond to an email before nine or after five at all.
• 40:11
  cross the board.
• 40:11
  Doesn't matter if it's the CEO or the new person, no one's allowed to.
• 40:15
  And I thought that was a really great way to kind of ingrain that work life balance in for the entire company.
• 40:20
  And so I think that is another great example of like the things that we can do as well as business owners for our employees, for our team members.
• 40:27
  So that way they're able to bring their best self every day.
• 40:30
  You know, they're not feeling drained and burnt out and feeling, I can't do this anymore.
• 40:34
  My boss doesn't understand.
• 40:35
  You know, he's making me work, you know, seven AM to, you know,
• 40:39
  midnight and I've got kids I got to get on the bus in the morning.
• 40:41
  You know, he was like, we recruit lots of parents who maybe they can't start at nine, but they can start at 10 and then they can they have to break for, you know, get the kids off
• 40:48
  the bus at the end of the day.
• 40:49
  And that's a huge population that so many, you know, organizations overlook because they just can't be in at 9 a.m.
• 40:54
  and they got to get their kids on the bus.
• 40:56
  And that's what they have to do.
• 40:57
  And but they can do the work in between and they can do a great job at it.
• 41:00
  But you know, they're just not given that opportunity.
• 41:03
  And so I really liked his mindset on that was really like ingraining that work-life balance within the culture.
• 41:08
  But also, you know, showing people that you can be human.
• 41:11
  You can drop your kids off at school.
• 41:13
  You can pick them up from the bus and it's not gonna affect your job.
• 41:16
  You know, that's something that, you know, should be encouraged because, you know, we're not robots, you know, we have personal lives, you have things that affect, you know, our
• 41:23
  business selves.
• 41:24
  And so to just kind of, you know, think that those things don't affect each other is just, you know, kind of, you know, just kind of putting your hands over your eyes because you
• 41:31
  don't want to see it.
• 41:32
  You know, it's just it's it's it's it's there and you know, I think that's a really important thing.
• 41:36
  So
• 41:36
  Yeah, just to, you know, wrap up, you know, that question was, you know, really just taking care of yourself, you know, mentally and physically and really making sure that you
• 41:43
  give that yourself that grace, you, you know, be that good boss to yourself and you know, don't drive yourself into the ground, you know, due to stress and worry and anxiety.
• 41:50
  You know, there's ways to get support for that.
• 41:52
  And, you know, there are subject matter experts and not saying that every therapist or psychiatrist is good.
• 41:57
  I've had my share of bad ones over the years.
• 41:59
  It took me a long time to find, you know, ones that really understood, you know, the way that I was thinking.
• 42:03
  And I think that was really just
• 42:05
  beneficial in its own right where my therapist wasn't saying, you shouldn't worry about that.
• 42:09
  Just don't think about that.
• 42:10
  Now he's like, no, I think similarly to you.
• 42:12
  I also have OCD.
• 42:14
  So he's like, I also have OCD.
• 42:15
  I understand why you're thinking like that.
• 42:17
  This is how you can do what you can do when those thoughts come.
• 42:20
  And so that I think was just so empowering for me where it was like, okay, I'm not alone in this.
• 42:24
  It's not just me that's having all these types of thoughts.
• 42:27
  You know, there's other people that are have very similar chains of thoughts.
• 42:29
  And so I think that was just really beneficial for me to understand like,
• 42:33
  Okay, it's not just me.
• 42:34
  You know, there's other people that are dealing with these same challenges and, you know, they're able to start, you know, build their businesses, they're able to grow their
• 42:39
  businesses, they're able to be successful.
• 42:41
  and it's, you know, more of a kind of a superpower for them than it is, you know, something that's a detriment to them.
• 42:46
  So that's something that, you know, has been really key for me in, you know, making sure that, you know, I can, you run this business for a long time and, you know, not have it,
• 42:53
  you know, affect me mentally or physically.
• 42:55
  That's smart.
• 42:55
  That's smart.
• 42:56
  That's smart.
• 42:57
  Last question for you.
• 42:58
  Um, the name of the show, of course, is the Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast.
• 43:02
  Uh so the question is, it's very simple, or I shouldn't say simple, but you know, it's you know, you can define what winning looks like.
• 43:10
  It's you know, it could be, you know, something small, it could be something huge.
• 43:13
  The challenge that a lot of people have is maintaining that relentless pursuit.
• 43:18
  What would you recommend to someone to help them maintain that relentless pursuit of winning?
• 43:22
  No, great question.
• 43:23
  And you know, I apply, I think, a lot of things, you know, on my youth lacrosse coaching side as well.
• 43:28
  You know, it's important to, you know, not give up.
• 43:30
  It's important to understand that even if it doesn't go right today, doesn't mean it's gonna not go right the rest of the days.
• 43:35
  You know, they always say it's you know darkest before the dawn.
• 43:38
  And so, you know, if you're in that dark space and you're like, I don't know if I can get out of this, you know, it's gonna get better because it's been better in the past.
• 43:44
  And so
• 43:45
  I think that that's a really, you know, a thing that is important when you have that relentless pursuit of winning is not let those failures stop you.
• 43:51
  You know, let that be an opportunity to learn.
• 43:54
  there's this great I'm trying to remember the quote, but there's this great quote by Nelson Mandela around, you know, he doesn't lose.
• 44:01
  You know, every you know, win every, you know, lesson it's a lesson that you learn.
• 44:05
  And I think that's you know, really true.
• 44:07
  You know, you can learn you know, so many things from the things that you know didn't go right.
• 44:11
  the things that did go right.
• 44:12
  And I think it's just, you know, really important to, you know, just really give yourself that that kindness.
• 44:17
  You know, be that boss that you wish you would have been, that you wish you would have had.
• 44:20
  And you know, understand that, you know, it's not the end of the world when, you know, something doesn't go right.
• 44:25
  You know, you can pick yourself back up.
• 44:26
  You can, you know, use those, you know, failures as, you know, fuel to succeed in something else or to find those ways to be more successful in the future.
• 44:34
  And I think as well,
• 44:36
  Something that's really important to me is, you know, I want to help people.
• 44:38
  You know, that's always been a big part of, you know, me and my background.
• 44:41
  I want to help, you know, make it easier for others.
• 44:43
  And so with the free job seeker support that I do, you know, I'm helping people through a really tough time and it, you know, really fills me up, you know, emotionally.
• 44:51
  And so I think it's important as well to figure out, you know, what really helps you feel best at the end of the day.
• 44:57
  You know, some people are money motivated, some people are, you know, servant leaders and they want to help people.
• 45:02
  and so it's, I think, a really important to just figure out, you know.
• 45:05
  what really motivates you as an individual and what are the things that you know you look most forward to, the things that you don't look forward to.
• 45:11
  I, you know, have the same conversations with my job seekers that I work with.
• 45:14
  You know, what do you like about your job and what don't you like about your job?
• 45:17
  You know, well, if there's things that you don't like, let's see who, you know, maybe within your business or outside of your business could take that lift off your shoulders.
• 45:23
  That way you don't have to do it anymore.
• 45:25
  And so that's been a really big thing of mine is just, you know, kind of keep going.
• 45:28
  You know, every, you know, just because you lost today doesn't mean you're gonna lose the rest of your life.
• 45:33
  And, you know,
• 45:34
  I thought a great example of that was I just wrapped up my spring rec season for my sixth, seventh grade team.
• 45:39
  and we had our end of the season lacrosse tournament and we had been the number one team all season, all spring.
• 45:45
  And our first game of the tournament, we got blown out.
• 45:47
  It was like nine one and they were they just, you know, weren't ready to play.
• 45:51
  Um and we weren't ready.
• 45:53
  And so we had to win the next rest of the games to get, you know, to the championship.
• 45:56
  And so we won the second game and we won it, you know, in overtime.
• 46:00
  We won the third game.
• 46:02
  And then we had to play back to back the same team that we lost to at the first game that in in the championship.
• 46:08
  And we ended up losing four two after losing to them nine-one in the first game.
• 46:12
  And I told all the kids I'm, you know, so proud of the way they bounced back and just pushed through it.
• 46:16
  And, you know, no one's gonna rem you they're I'm I always told I tell them, you know, you're not gonna remember, you know, if you won or lost this game, you know, 20 years from
• 46:23
  now.
• 46:23
  You're gonna remember if you had fun, if you worked hard, if you you know gave it your all.
• 46:27
  And so
• 46:27
  That's something I always just try to help, you know, those youth athletes understand that, you know, it's okay to make mistakes.
• 46:32
  We're all gonna make mistakes, we're all gonna fail.
• 46:34
  It's about you know what you do after that that really defines you as a person.
• 46:38
  And I think that that really, you know, is the you know, kind of impetus for a lot of things that I do.
• 46:42
  You know, I've been at some of the darkest, you know, points in my life, you know, whether it's depression, anxiety, you know, been, you know, in really dark places.
• 46:50
  And so I think, you know, the fact that I'm able to come out of that and want to help other people, you know.
• 46:53
  Not just avoid those spaces, but understand that they can come back from them too.
• 46:57
  I think that's really what drives me and just really trying to help, you know, make the world a better place than the one that I left it.
• 47:01
  So that's I think the fuel for me and what, you know, keeps that relentless pursuit of winning for me.
• 47:06
  I'm also just naturally a very competitive person.
• 47:08
  You know, I love sports and was a little cross player for a number of years.
• 47:11
  So I really don't like to lose, but you know, I've learned that you need to learn to lose.
• 47:16
  And it's okay to lose because, you know.
• 47:18
  you'll you'll go up but get them the next game or you know the next project or the next business and you know not to treat those failures as you know failures for you personally.
• 47:26
  You know, sometimes things happen and you just need to be able to pick yourself up, you know, brush yourself off and, you know, keep on moving forward.
• 47:33
  Yeah, yeah, I like that.
• 47:34
  Justin, if somebody wants to uh get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?
• 47:38
  Yeah, of course.
• 47:39
  So I'm very accessible on LinkedIn.
• 47:41
  You know, Justin Volman, you can find me on there.
• 47:43
  You can check out my website, volmanhrstrategy.com.
• 47:46
  my email is my last name and my first name at gmail.com.
• 47:49
  So again, super easy to find, but really accessible from the website, LinkedIn or email.
• 47:55
  You know, people can reach out to me any of those ways.
• 47:57
  So, you know, whether it's a business struggling to attract hire or retain their talent.
• 48:01
  or a job seeker that's struggling in the job search, you know, I'm happy to help in, you know, any way that I can.
• 48:05
  Awesome, awesome, Justin.
• 48:06
  Thank you so much for your for being on the show.
• 48:08
  I I enjoyed it.
• 48:09
  I had I learned a lot.
• 48:10
  I appreciate you.
• 48:11
  and I look forward to talking to you again soon, man.
• 48:13
  Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Rick.
• 48:14
  It was, you know, such a great experience and just always love having these conversations.
• 48:18
  And you know, like you said, no one understands the stresses of being an entrepreneur like a fellow entrepreneur.
• 48:21
  So always happy to, you know, chat and see how we can you know, make it easier for that next generation.
• 48:26
  Awesome, awesome.
• 48:26
  And folks, thank you so much for watching or listening to another episode of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning podcast.
• 48:32
  We'll catch you next time.