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The truth about OCD and intrusive thoughts #22 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

0:00
Speaker 1: The world needs free therapy. What's up, Kev?
0:03
Speaker 2: What's up, Benny?
0:04
Speaker 1: Not much, bro. I'm excited for this episode. This episode
0:07
Speaker 1: is all about OCD. We brought in Allegra Kastens to
0:10
Speaker 1: kind of go over OCD, and we've done an anxiety episode,
0:12
Speaker 1: but we really didn't do OCD. And what's interesting about
0:15
Speaker 1: this episode for me is that I've had OCD since
0:17
Speaker 1: I was like 12 or 13. And In the episode,
0:20
Speaker 1: you were like, bro, I had no idea.
0:22
Speaker 2: No clue.
0:23
Speaker 1: Because we don't really talk about it.
0:24
Speaker 2: How intense it was. Yeah, you don't really share.
0:26
Speaker 1: So intense. And I think Allegra brought up a great
0:28
Speaker 1: point that OCD can cause a lot of shame, especially
0:30
Speaker 1: in men. And I guess I have come to realize
0:34
Speaker 1: that there was some shame about it. And maybe explaining
0:36
Speaker 1: it to you was hard. And it's hard to get
0:38
Speaker 1: in the details of it. But I found the episode
0:41
Speaker 1: so interesting. The way she explained things made me be like, oh.
0:47
Speaker 1: And I even remember in the episode, you were having
0:49
Speaker 1: some realizations about how interesting it was because you weren't
0:52
Speaker 1: even so familiar with what OCD is and how it
0:54
Speaker 1: affects people.
0:55
Speaker 2: I had no clue about how OCD affects people in reality.
1:00
Speaker 2: And I mean, she gets into the differences between having
1:03
Speaker 2: a thought and choosing to act on it, why trying
1:07
Speaker 2: to get rid of certain thoughts can actually make them stronger,
1:10
Speaker 2: and how OCD can really become this endless cycle of
1:13
Speaker 2: rumination and obsession that I didn't really know existed.
1:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely not something talked about enough. I'm glad
1:21
Speaker 1: we did an episode on it. Allegra's message is really
1:23
Speaker 1: important in this episode. She says, for anyone that's struggling
1:26
Speaker 1: with intrusive thoughts, you don't have to get rid of
1:29
Speaker 1: the thought. The goal is learning how to respond to
1:32
Speaker 1: it differently.
1:33
Speaker 2: And so we get into what it actually looks like,
1:35
Speaker 2: how to break the cycle of compulsions, and why there's
1:38
Speaker 2: a lot more hope for people with OCD than we realize.
1:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really want to hammer that home. There's hope here, right?
1:44
Speaker 1: And I hope this episode gives it to you. So
1:46
Speaker 1: if you've ever been scared by your own thoughts, wonder
1:48
Speaker 1: what they say about you, or find yourself stuck in
1:51
Speaker 1: an endless loop of what if, this episode is for you.
1:55
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. Allegra, welcome to Free Therapy.
2:17
Speaker 2: Welcome to Free Therapy.
2:18
Speaker 3: We are so happy.
2:19
Speaker 1: To have you. Okay, so Allegra Kastens is a therapist
2:23
Speaker 1: in LA. She is an LMFT who specializes in OCD.
2:29
Speaker 1: And we have done episodes on anxiety, on rumination, but
2:32
Speaker 1: we decided at that time to actually not do OCD
2:34
Speaker 1: because it is like a whole different topic, I feel like.
2:37
Speaker 1: And I think it often gets lumped into anxiety and rumination,
2:41
Speaker 1: which it can and it should. But I also think
2:43
Speaker 1: it's so nuanced. And there's so much detail about it
2:46
Speaker 1: that we thought it'd be great to just go into
2:50
Speaker 1: OCD as a whole. And, you know, I've had OCD
2:52
Speaker 1: for a very long time. I think I first realized
2:54
Speaker 1: it when I was like 16 or 15. It's actually
2:58
Speaker 1: a crazy story. I don't know if you know this.
2:59
Speaker 1: When I was 11 years old, I was in a
3:03
Speaker 1: class in math and the water went out in the school.
3:08
Speaker 1: And so they were like, no one can drink water
3:09
Speaker 1: for a couple hours. And me and my friends were
3:12
Speaker 1: messing around with like the top of a lead pencil cap.
3:16
Speaker 1: You know what those are? You used to put it
3:17
Speaker 1: on the lead pencil, right? You put it over the eraser.
3:20
Speaker 1: No millennial. Cool. So it's a little piece of metal.
3:24
Speaker 2: Let's keep hearing this. I promise this is going somewhere.
3:27
Speaker 1: A little piece of metal. Fine. You can take it off.
3:29
Speaker 2: I got you.
3:30
Speaker 1: All of the cool kids were getting it stuck on
3:32
Speaker 1: their tongue like a tongue ring. Like suction it and
3:35
Speaker 1: be cool. I did it and choked on it.
3:37
Speaker 2: No. No.
3:39
Speaker 1: Scared the shit out of me i thought in the
3:41
Speaker 1: moment i was literally choking of course right i wasn't
3:44
Speaker 1: choking because you would be coughing yeah water went out
3:46
Speaker 1: and so like i felt like for two hours i
3:47
Speaker 1: was choking from there i started developing tics about not
3:53
Speaker 1: being able to breathe or swallow food yep like a
3:56
Speaker 1: couple years i would be like sitting at the table
3:59
Speaker 1: i can't breathe right mentally i just was struggling yeah
4:02
Speaker 1: so that started to formulate into these like behavioral tics
4:06
Speaker 1: Of like trying to gain control, whether it was like
4:08
Speaker 1: my mom putting me to bed and it was counting
4:11
Speaker 1: the walls in the room so I could go to
4:13
Speaker 1: bed at the right time or it was doing the
4:14
Speaker 1: bedtime routine in a certain order.
4:16
Speaker 2: Is it counting the walls in the room? Like one, two, three, four?
4:19
Speaker 1: Yeah. Every room I walked into, I had to count
4:23
Speaker 1: in fours the corners of the room to make sure
4:25
Speaker 1: there were four walls or I had to count them
4:27
Speaker 1: in groups of four.
4:29
Speaker 3: Super common.
4:30
Speaker 1: Compulsion. Really? Compulsion.
4:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. The compulsion was to do that.
4:34
Speaker 1: That was one of the many compulsions.
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Speaker 3: One of the many.
4:36
Speaker 1: At the time I had like five.
4:37
Speaker 3: The list is long.
4:39
Speaker 1: So that was like the first part of like, my
4:41
Speaker 1: mom was like, you need to go see a specialist.
4:42
Speaker 1: I was like 17, saw a specialist. It wasn't like
4:44
Speaker 1: the best. And then I started doing CBT work. Yeah.
4:47
Speaker 1: And started to like work through the compulsions when I
4:50
Speaker 1: was 18 or 19, which was like trying on clothes
4:53
Speaker 1: five times before I left the house or making like
4:57
Speaker 1: noises to make sure I could breathe. I had so
4:59
Speaker 1: many of them. Yes. And then it started to develop
5:01
Speaker 1: into like, Just mental compulsions because I was embarrassed by
5:05
Speaker 1: the physical. Right. And I worked through it. So anyways.
5:07
Speaker 2: I don't think I knew.
5:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't talk about this.
5:09
Speaker 2: You've never told me about this. It's like 15 years.
5:12
Speaker 2: You've never told me. It's a weird story.
5:13
Speaker 1: It's hard to explain it.
5:14
Speaker 2: I didn't know it was that intense.
5:16
Speaker 1: It was terrible.
5:17
Speaker 3: It's so interesting that that feels weird to you.
5:19
Speaker 1: Well, I was 16. And by the way, I still
5:22
Speaker 1: have some that no one sees.
5:24
Speaker 3: Of course.
5:25
Speaker 1: And it's like, I don't know how to like fully
5:27
Speaker 1: get rid of them. Yeah. They don't affect me anymore.
5:29
Speaker 1: But yeah, I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed. Because someone literally,
5:32
Speaker 1: when I was 16 working at Sports LA, was like,
5:34
Speaker 1: do you have Tourette's? Because I was doing some really
5:37
Speaker 1: fucked up shit with my neck.
5:39
Speaker 4: And it's interesting because tics and OCD are different, but
5:41
Speaker 4: they can look similar.
5:43
Speaker 1: Totally.
5:44
Speaker 4: And what we find is that men tend to experience
5:47
Speaker 4: OCD at a younger age. They have a younger onset.
5:50
Speaker 4: And also tics are more comorbid for men with OCD.
5:54
Speaker 1: Comorbid.
5:55
Speaker 3: So like having tics and OCD at the same time.
5:58
Speaker 1: Interesting. Does one develop first? How do you know? What's
6:00
Speaker 1: the difference?
6:01
Speaker 4: So tics tend to be involuntary and OCD compulsions are
6:06
Speaker 4: a choice, even if they happen habitually, like you jump
6:08
Speaker 4: into them without conscious awareness. So what you're describing sounds
6:11
Speaker 4: like OCD, but I could see how someone would think
6:13
Speaker 4: it's a tic where you feel this almost like, I
6:16
Speaker 4: think it's called a premonitory urge to like move your neck.
6:19
Speaker 3: Let's say that might be a tic.
6:20
Speaker 4: Whereas it sounds like you were trying to breathe in
6:22
Speaker 4: the right way or to check something.
6:24
Speaker 1: Yeah.
6:24
Speaker 3: And it looked tic like.
6:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. How would you define OCD? When someone goes, I'm
6:28
Speaker 1: so OCD, like what, how do you, how do you
6:29
Speaker 1: define OCD?
6:30
Speaker 4: So people tend to think OCD is an adjective to
6:32
Speaker 4: describe being cleanly or tidy.
6:35
Speaker 3: It's a noun.
6:35
Speaker 4: So it's a mental health condition that is comprised of obsessions, repetitive,
6:39
Speaker 4: intrusive and unwanted thoughts, images and urges that are ego dystonic.
6:43
Speaker 4: And what that means is the obsessions are opposite to
6:46
Speaker 4: your values, your desires, your beliefs and your self-concepts. So
6:49
Speaker 4: what you know to be true about yourself, it's like
6:51
Speaker 4: you're having the worst thought on repeat all day long
6:54
Speaker 4: and you cannot get it out of your mind no
6:56
Speaker 4: matter how much you want to. And you feel the
6:58
Speaker 4: urge to carry out compulsive rituals. They could be physical
7:01
Speaker 4: rituals or mental compulsions, like you were saying, to alleviate distress,
7:05
Speaker 4: to prevent something bad from happening according to rules that
7:09
Speaker 4: your OCD has created. So it's obsession and it's compulsion.
7:13
Speaker 4: And what we typically see in the media is contamination obsession.
7:16
Speaker 4: So somebody who is afraid of germs and they're sanitizing
7:19
Speaker 4: their hands compulsively or they're Somebody who doubts whether or
7:23
Speaker 4: not their door is locked and you see them stuck
7:24
Speaker 4: there just going back and forth checking. But that actually
7:27
Speaker 4: makes up a very small sliver of OCD obsessional themes.
7:31
Speaker 4: Violent obsessions, sexual obsessions, religious and moral obsessions, sexual orientation
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Speaker 4: and gender identity obsessions are very common for people with OCD.
7:41
Speaker 2: Uh-huh.
7:41
Speaker 3: And OCD is.
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Speaker 4: Really characterized by pathological doubt. So you are doubting something
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Speaker 4: that doesn't need to be doubting. You are doubting ultimately
7:49
Speaker 4: what you know to be true. There's a lot of
7:50
Speaker 4: distrust in reality. So somebody with pedophile obsessions, let's say,
7:55
Speaker 4: like that was my main theme.
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Speaker 3: What if I'm a pedophile?
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Speaker 4: Even though they are not attracted to children, they have
7:59
Speaker 4: never been attracted to children, but they keep getting these repetitive,
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Speaker 4: intrusive sexual thoughts about kids that are so opposite to
8:06
Speaker 4: what they know to be true about themselves. And because
8:09
Speaker 4: OCD is a doubting disorder, they start to go, wait,
8:12
Speaker 4: I'm having all of these thoughts and images. Could I
8:14
Speaker 4: be a pedophile? And then we see compulsion. So an
8:16
Speaker 4: avoidance of children. Googling, how do I know if I'm
8:20
Speaker 4: a pedophile? Mental compulsion. So checking when you're around children,
8:24
Speaker 4: am I feeling something? Again, even though the obsessions are
8:27
Speaker 4: totally opposite to what the person knows to be true
8:30
Speaker 4: about themselves.
8:31
Speaker 1: OK, so ego dystonic.
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Speaker 2: Yes.
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Speaker 1: Means you have some compulsion going against your core beliefs. Yes.
8:36
Speaker 3: Obsession.
8:37
Speaker 1: Exactly.
8:37
Speaker 3: Or compulsion as well.
8:38
Speaker 4: But really the obsessions, like the thoughts that you are having,
8:41
Speaker 4: the intrusive thoughts and images oppose your values, your desires
8:45
Speaker 4: and what you know to be true about yourself. And
8:47
Speaker 4: that's really important because the obsessions oppose what they actually
8:50
Speaker 4: like and want. People with OCD carry out compulsions to
8:53
Speaker 4: prevent that thing from happening because they're so afraid of
8:56
Speaker 4: their thoughts.
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Speaker 1: Right. OK, this I totally agree. Right. Because I'm trying
9:02
Speaker 1: to think about my situation.
9:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a lot.
9:03
Speaker 1: It's okay.
9:04
Speaker 2: No, it's okay.
9:05
Speaker 1: We're just going to go backwards.
9:06
Speaker 3: He's like, I got to go.
9:08
Speaker 2: Oh, no, I'm like, I feel like I'm in a movie.
9:11
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's like slow it down for people who
9:14
Speaker 1: don't really understand OCD. Because I think the point you're
9:16
Speaker 1: making is a really important one for people to understand
9:20
Speaker 1: that OCD are thoughts and obsessions that go against your
9:25
Speaker 1: core beliefs.
9:26
Speaker 3: Exactly.
9:26
Speaker 1: So on a lower scale, on... Yes, the violent ones.
9:30
Speaker 1: I have a friend who, like, thinks they are the
9:32
Speaker 1: reason the World Trade Towers fell. Oh, my.
9:34
Speaker 3: That's so common.
9:35
Speaker 4: Or that, like, they're going to hijack the airplane or, yeah.
9:38
Speaker 1: They have convinced themselves they are the reason for catastrophes. Yeah. Yeah.
9:44
Speaker 2: Where does this come from?
9:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question.
9:45
Speaker 2: No, seriously.
9:46
Speaker 3: I wish I knew.
9:47
Speaker 2: What are the leading beliefs of where this comes from?
9:49
Speaker 4: So, yeah, we don't know exactly, but what the research
9:51
Speaker 4: shows is there tends to be a genetic and biological component.
9:54
Speaker 4: So there's a biological predisposition, and then something in the
9:57
Speaker 4: environment might set off that biological predisposition. which for me,
10:00
Speaker 4: I think was anorexia. I was anorexic before I had
10:04
Speaker 4: a sudden onset of OCD, but my brother has OCD.
10:07
Speaker 3: I think it runs in the family.
10:09
Speaker 1: It's exactly what happened to me. There we go. My
10:11
Speaker 1: pen swallowing, I know that people in my family are
10:14
Speaker 1: controlling and obsessive and they may not have defined it
10:18
Speaker 1: as OCD, but like It did come from some genetic predisposition.
10:22
Speaker 3: My brother had that same obsession, by the way, about
10:24
Speaker 3: the choking.
10:25
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.
10:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, because he almost choked on an onion ring one
10:27
Speaker 3: time at dinner.
10:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.
10:28
Speaker 4: And then it became an obsession of his. And, like,
10:30
Speaker 4: he made my parents take him to the hospital because
10:32
Speaker 4: he thought something was in his throat and they were
10:34
Speaker 4: doing all these tests.
10:34
Speaker 3: But, again, nothing was. Like, that is OCD.
10:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
10:37
Speaker 3: You're distrusting reality, but it feels so real.
10:41
Speaker 2: Does... How does.
10:44
Speaker 1: the thoughts that you have that are against your core beliefs,
10:49
Speaker 1: why do we have those thoughts? What are those thoughts
10:53
Speaker 1: telling us? Are they protecting us? Or how do we
10:57
Speaker 1: understand that process better?
10:59
Speaker 3: I think it depends on who you ask.
11:00
Speaker 4: I don't necessarily look at it as protecting us. And
11:03
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people with OCD probably wouldn't
11:05
Speaker 4: because OCD, I mean, there's a high rate of suicide
11:09
Speaker 4: for people who have OCD. And I guess somebody could
11:13
Speaker 4: look at OCD as a protective part.
11:15
Speaker 3: I really don't. I think it's kind of a misfiring
11:17
Speaker 3: of the brain.
11:18
Speaker 4: I think that it is neurobiological and we all every
11:22
Speaker 4: human being gets an unwanted thought.
11:24
Speaker 3: Like, I'm sure both of you have had a thought before.
11:25
Speaker 3: What the fuck was that? Why did I think that?
11:28
Speaker 4: But for people with OCD, they stick. There's something in
11:30
Speaker 4: the brain. There's something biologically happening. I wouldn't look at
11:34
Speaker 4: it as a protector. But again, some people might.
11:37
Speaker 1: It's so interesting how you say you don't think it's
11:39
Speaker 1: protective because I personally I do believe for me, it
11:42
Speaker 1: feels protective, but I also understand the neurological disposition because
11:46
Speaker 1: I know that SRIs and medication really helps quiet those thoughts.
11:50
Speaker 3: Changed my life.
11:50
Speaker 1: Totally. And I've heard this almost, the reason I mostly
11:54
Speaker 1: got on medication when I was younger was because of that.
11:58
Speaker 1: And the moment I got on it, like the way
12:00
Speaker 1: Kimberly Quinlan describes it, like the dial just gets like
12:02
Speaker 1: turned down. And so all those thoughts that you would have,
12:05
Speaker 1: which is like, what are some of mine? Um, Oh,
12:09
Speaker 1: if I I'm definitely if I say this, I'm going
12:10
Speaker 1: to get fired from my job and getting fired from
12:12
Speaker 1: my job. I'm fired from my job. And then it's like, oh,
12:15
Speaker 1: the voice. Oh, I'm going to get fired. But I
12:17
Speaker 1: just like let it go. I let the thought just
12:19
Speaker 1: like go. It doesn't stick, which I'm sure for you.
12:20
Speaker 1: It doesn't have OCD. The thought comes in and you're
12:23
Speaker 1: rational enough to be like, oh, that's not that's not. Yeah.
12:26
Speaker 1: For me, it's like it's happening. Yeah.
12:28
Speaker 3: And it feels so real in the body. And that's
12:30
Speaker 3: what's so hard.
12:31
Speaker 4: People with violent obsessions, they're holding a knife, cutting up vegetables,
12:34
Speaker 4: and they have the thought, what if you stab yourself?
12:36
Speaker 4: And it really feels in your body like you could,
12:38
Speaker 4: even though you don't want to.
12:40
Speaker 2: Can you give an example of maybe... I would imagine
12:44
Speaker 2: the violent obsessions are less common than... No.
12:48
Speaker 3: Oh my God, so common.
12:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
12:49
Speaker 3: People think that.
12:50
Speaker 2: And the cleanliness.
12:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
12:51
Speaker 2: Oh, no, no, no.
12:52
Speaker 3: So like most of my caseload is taboo obsessions. Yeah, no.
12:56
Speaker 4: We just hear about contamination obsessions more. So people think,
12:59
Speaker 4: Even when I do podcast interviews, I've had people say
13:01
Speaker 4: things like, you had a very rare case.
13:04
Speaker 3: It's so not rare at all. It is so common.
13:06
Speaker 4: Men, women, non-binary folks, taboo obsessions are highly prevalent for
13:11
Speaker 4: people with OCD.
13:12
Speaker 3: We just don't hear.
13:13
Speaker 2: About it enough.
13:14
Speaker 4: Yeah.
13:14
Speaker 1: Wow. What's the difference between an obsession and a compulsion?
13:17
Speaker 4: So the obsession is, A, think about pathological doubt, doubt
13:20
Speaker 4: that is not rooted in reality.
13:22
Speaker 1: Can you explain pathological for people?
13:23
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
13:24
Speaker 4: So There are doubts in life that are reasonable, right?
13:28
Speaker 4: So if like, let's say there's smoke coming in from
13:30
Speaker 4: under the store and we start to smell smoke and
13:32
Speaker 4: your brain goes, what if there's a fire? Well, in context,
13:35
Speaker 4: that's probably a doubt that we should pay attention to.
13:37
Speaker 4: People with OCD are doubting things that are quite literally
13:40
Speaker 4: not happening in reality. What if I'm a pedophile, even
13:43
Speaker 4: though I don't, I'm not attracted to children. I don't
13:45
Speaker 4: desire having sex with children. It's really like it lives
13:48
Speaker 4: in the imagination and also repetitive, intrusive thoughts, thoughts that
13:53
Speaker 4: happen to you.
13:54
Speaker 3: They pop in.
13:55
Speaker 4: Whereas the compulsions are behaviors that you carry out in
13:58
Speaker 4: response to the obsessions. You feel the urge to. It's
14:00
Speaker 4: not as simple as just stop. And that could be
14:03
Speaker 4: a mental behavior, ruminating, mental checking, thought neutralizing. It could
14:08
Speaker 4: be physical and it could also be avoidance. That is
14:10
Speaker 4: a very common compulsion for people with OCD. If a
14:13
Speaker 4: man is having obsessions, what if I'm gay even though
14:15
Speaker 4: I'm married to a woman and I know that I'm not?
14:17
Speaker 3: I see my clients avoid going to the gym.
14:19
Speaker 4: They don't want to be in the locker room with
14:21
Speaker 4: men because they're afraid that they're going to have sexual
14:23
Speaker 4: intrusive thoughts or.
14:25
Speaker 3: you know, avoidance of anything that could trigger OCD.
14:28
Speaker 2: How important is diagnosing the OCD? Let's say, because I
14:33
Speaker 2: would also imagine that there's a range of obsession and compulsion.
14:36
Speaker 2: There's like really debilitating.
14:38
Speaker 1: Of course.
14:39
Speaker 2: And then there's, you still live your life, but it
14:42
Speaker 2: is like, you may, you say you have OCD. I
14:45
Speaker 2: don't experience you as having OCD.
14:47
Speaker 1: Because I have done so much fucking work.
14:49
Speaker 3: That's the other thing. OCD doesn't have a look.
14:51
Speaker 4: You could be sitting next to someone that has the
14:53
Speaker 4: most debilitating OCD and you would have zero idea. Like
14:56
Speaker 4: when I was struggling, I was a publicist at the time.
14:59
Speaker 4: I was like climbing the ladder in the PR industry.
15:01
Speaker 3: I was so unbelievably sick, but all of my symptoms
15:05
Speaker 3: were invisible. Nobody would have known.
15:07
Speaker 4: So people think if someone has OCD, I'm going to
15:09
Speaker 4: see them circling the block over and over again. They
15:12
Speaker 4: might be ruminating for hours on end or checking in
15:14
Speaker 4: their mind or doing other things that you don't see.
15:17
Speaker 4: But there are, you know, of course, more severe and
15:20
Speaker 4: debilitating cases than.
15:21
Speaker 3: others.
15:22
Speaker 4: But to be diagnosed, your obsessions and compulsions have to
15:25
Speaker 4: take up at least an hour of your day. So
15:27
Speaker 4: you're having the thoughts, you are doing things in response
15:29
Speaker 4: to them for at least an hour, and your functioning
15:31
Speaker 4: is impaired in some way.
15:33
Speaker 2: I mean, how important is getting diagnosed?
15:35
Speaker 3: I think it is so important for so many people.
15:38
Speaker 1: Noah Kahn is like a perfect example. He literally got
15:40
Speaker 1: diagnosed in his early 30s. He had no idea why
15:43
Speaker 1: he would wake up feeling depressed, why he'd think his
15:44
Speaker 1: life was terrible, why he was so lost. The thoughts
15:47
Speaker 1: he was having, he's like, and he didn't know.
15:49
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
15:49
Speaker 4: And that's why I think Some people don't like diagnosis,
15:52
Speaker 4: but I think most people with OCD are happy to
15:54
Speaker 4: receive a diagnosis because there's this name for this thing.
15:57
Speaker 3: Like, it's not me.
15:58
Speaker 4: I have this mental health condition that is, you know,
16:00
Speaker 4: producing these thoughts that are really not me. And I
16:03
Speaker 4: think that that can be so powerful for people with OCD.
16:06
Speaker 1: I think what's unfortunate is like because OCD, like this
16:10
Speaker 1: is like depression, anxiety are less taboo than they've ever been. Right.
16:13
Speaker 4: Right.
16:13
Speaker 1: But OCD is still crazy taboo about it.
16:16
Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
16:17
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like really. And that's why you see like people
16:18
Speaker 1: like Howie Mandel or Noah Kahn are really like people
16:22
Speaker 1: are speaking really. And everyone in the comments are like crazy.
16:24
Speaker 1: Because everyone is so seen.
16:25
Speaker 3: So many people relate, but we just don't talk.
16:28
Speaker 1: Yeah. Because it doesn't really make sense, right? Yeah. Because
16:30
Speaker 1: some people are like, for me, like my mom is
16:31
Speaker 1: a therapist, right? And I think you know my mom.
16:33
Speaker 1: You've heard about her, which is really good.
16:36
Speaker 2: Hi, mom.
16:36
Speaker 3: I don't actually know her, but I've heard of her.
16:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:38
Speaker 3: She's like, I don't know who this woman is.
16:39
Speaker 1: I just want my mom to know that she's loved
16:41
Speaker 1: and respected because I admire her and I want people
16:44
Speaker 1: to admire her.
16:44
Speaker 3: That's very sweet.
16:45
Speaker 1: But I think that obsessive compulsive disorder is like a
16:48
Speaker 1: disease of the brain.
16:49
Speaker 3: Oh, a thousand percent.
16:50
Speaker 1: People don't really look at it like that because it
16:52
Speaker 1: is something that is wrong with, not wrong, it is
16:55
Speaker 1: something that is different.
16:56
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's wrong, cut it out, fix it.
16:58
Speaker 2: It's something that's.
16:58
Speaker 1: Different with your brain and the need for me to control,
17:02
Speaker 1: fix it, make it better is actually the problem. It's
17:04
Speaker 1: more about acceptance that this is a part of me
17:05
Speaker 1: and I have to learn how to manage it and
17:07
Speaker 1: understand when my intrusive thoughts come, why they're showing up,
17:10
Speaker 1: what is it about, and then diffuse them in different
17:12
Speaker 1: ways with different tactics to not let it inhibit my
17:15
Speaker 1: life so I can be in relationship with you or
17:18
Speaker 1: my girlfriend or my family And not let OCD change
17:22
Speaker 1: the dynamic of my life.
17:24
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
17:24
Speaker 4: Acceptance was a really big part of my treatment journey.
17:28
Speaker 4: Accepting that I was having these thoughts, I spent so
17:30
Speaker 4: long fighting with them. Because who wants to experience unwanted
17:33
Speaker 4: sexual thoughts about your father or animals or kids? And
17:36
Speaker 4: that was me all day long. And I had to
17:39
Speaker 4: just come to, okay, I'm having this thought. I'm going
17:40
Speaker 4: to let it be there and I'm going to carry
17:42
Speaker 4: on with my day.
17:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:43
Speaker 3: Without making meaning out of it.
17:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:46
Speaker 3: And now I don't mean it.
17:47
Speaker 1: Making meaning. How do you start making meaning out of
17:48
Speaker 1: these thoughts? I mean, these things are hard. You feel
17:50
Speaker 1: it in the body, right?
17:51
Speaker 3: Oh my God, it's the most real feeling ever.
17:52
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is a real feeling. My therapist
17:53
Speaker 1: would be like, that's not real. That's OCD. I'm like,
17:55
Speaker 1: feelings are not facts, right? I was like, how do
17:57
Speaker 1: you know? He goes, I know. He's like, do you know?
17:59
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, I think I do. But my
18:01
Speaker 1: body is like, it's 100% real. Absolutely. My mind is like,
18:04
Speaker 1: it's not real. But I have to listen to my
18:05
Speaker 1: body because it's a feeling. Not all feelings are real.
18:08
Speaker 2: How do you get to agree that feelings are not facts?
18:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
18:11
Speaker 2: Kimberly said the same thing. Don't believe your feelings. Like,
18:13
Speaker 2: how do you actually go from feelings are completely real
18:16
Speaker 2: and they dictate my life and my actions to feelings
18:20
Speaker 2: are not facts. How do you get there?
18:21
Speaker 4: I think it's really hard and I think it depends
18:23
Speaker 4: on in what context. So like with OCD, let's say
18:27
Speaker 4: the journey in treatment, it doesn't just happen overnight, but
18:30
Speaker 4: ultimately I think it's more about changing behavior than it
18:33
Speaker 4: is about changing feelings. So recognizing that I'm having this
18:36
Speaker 4: feeling and it does feel real and it feels urgent
18:39
Speaker 4: and I feel like I need to respond compulsively, but
18:41
Speaker 4: I'm going to choose to do something else. because of
18:44
Speaker 4: what I've learned about OCD, because of what I know
18:46
Speaker 4: about it. So I think clients come in wanting, like,
18:49
Speaker 4: I just want this feeling to go away. I don't
18:52
Speaker 4: want to feel like I could be a pedophile anymore.
18:54
Speaker 4: But the work really is you might have that feeling,
18:56
Speaker 4: but we're going to change our behavior because changing behaviors
18:59
Speaker 4: can help change thoughts and feelings. I think if you're
19:02
Speaker 4: looking at trauma, I think that that can be a
19:04
Speaker 4: little bit harder. That's where I think sometimes CBT can
19:07
Speaker 4: actually be unhelpful for people with trauma.
19:09
Speaker 3: Who have, let's say, negative core beliefs about self. And
19:12
Speaker 3: it's like, let's just think differently. That doesn't necessarily work.
19:15
Speaker 2: Totally.
19:16
Speaker 3: Yeah.
19:16
Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that the difference between like a compulsion
19:20
Speaker 2: and a tick is choice, that the tick is involuntary,
19:23
Speaker 2: the compulsion is choice. Can you explain that? I mean,
19:27
Speaker 2: to me, that gives hope.
19:28
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
19:30
Speaker 4: I don't specialize in ticks, but I know a little
19:33
Speaker 4: bit about it because it's often comorbid with OCD. But
19:36
Speaker 4: Tics tend to be involuntary, so the person feels a
19:39
Speaker 4: premonitory urge and they feel like they have to do
19:43
Speaker 4: something to kind of like get rid of that tension,
19:45
Speaker 4: but it is involuntary. It can be stopped, like there
19:48
Speaker 4: is habit reversal training for people with tics.
19:51
Speaker 3: So there's hope for people with tics as well.
19:53
Speaker 4: But with OCD, it is an active choice. Like you
19:56
Speaker 4: are choosing to do something. It can feel automatic over
20:00
Speaker 4: time because you've jumped into it so habitually. Like if
20:02
Speaker 4: you are ruminating constantly, you might experience the, what if
20:06
Speaker 4: I'm gay? And then boom, you go right into rumination.
20:08
Speaker 4: It's still an active choice. And the work then is
20:11
Speaker 4: to create awareness of it.
20:12
Speaker 1: Okay.
20:13
Speaker 3: Notice that I'm ruminating. This is not helpful.
20:15
Speaker 4: I'm going to stop and come back to the present moment.
20:18
Speaker 4: So we want to stop compulsions. We can't stop obsessions.
20:21
Speaker 4: It's not as simple as just stop. I think that's
20:23
Speaker 4: one of the most annoying things to say to someone
20:25
Speaker 4: with OCD. Just stop checking the lock.
20:27
Speaker 3: It's not that simple.
20:28
Speaker 2: That's not what to say.
20:29
Speaker 3: No, exactly.
20:30
Speaker 1: Exactly.
20:30
Speaker 3: Ultimately, that's the goal. Yeah.
20:32
Speaker 2: So like, what is that process of growth so that it's,
20:38
Speaker 2: you said you're not going to change obsession, but you
20:40
Speaker 2: can change the compulsion.
20:41
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
20:42
Speaker 2: The first thing you mentioned was this practice.
20:44
Speaker 3: ERP.
20:45
Speaker 2: ERP.
20:45
Speaker 3: So what I do with clients, I start with psychoeducation.
20:48
Speaker 4: It is really important that people understand what OCD is
20:50
Speaker 4: and how it's showing up for them. I do some
20:53
Speaker 4: metacognitive therapy. So helping them think differently about their thinking.
20:56
Speaker 4: Like again, feelings are not facts. Thoughts are not facts.
20:59
Speaker 4: A lot of the time clients will use the mere
21:01
Speaker 4: fact that they're having these thoughts as evidence of the
21:04
Speaker 4: OCD being true. Instead of you're just experiencing thoughts in
21:08
Speaker 4: the mind like every other human being does. So metacognitive therapy,
21:11
Speaker 4: mindfulness skills training. to be mindful of thoughts, feelings, images, urges,
21:16
Speaker 4: sensations without resistance and without compulsive engagement and then some
21:20
Speaker 4: exposure and response prevention.
21:22
Speaker 3: So I use a variety of tools when working with people.
21:25
Speaker 1: I think something that I think is really challenging around
21:27
Speaker 1: OCD is that when you start to challenge those thoughts
21:29
Speaker 1: as not real or those feelings as not facts, you
21:31
Speaker 1: start to lose trust of your gut, right? Because the
21:34
Speaker 1: gut is a feeling as well. So you have a compulsion,
21:36
Speaker 1: you have an obsession, you start ruminating and you're like, wait,
21:39
Speaker 1: is that my brain and my body just feeling, nah,
21:40
Speaker 1: this isn't right right now? Or is it my gut?
21:43
Speaker 1: And then you start to, and you're like, well, what
21:44
Speaker 1: is real?
21:44
Speaker 4: And trust your gut is not really applicable for people
21:47
Speaker 4: in the, like in OCD context. Cause it's like, my
21:50
Speaker 4: gut is telling me I'm a fucking pedophile right now,
21:52
Speaker 4: even though you're not, your anxiety is flaring up. Your
21:55
Speaker 4: body is going into fight or flight. You can't necessarily
21:57
Speaker 4: trust your gut in that setting, in that context.
22:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. So how do you move towards?
22:01
Speaker 3: For me, it was.
22:03
Speaker 4: Really recognizing that this was how OCD was showing up
22:06
Speaker 4: for me. When I felt that real feeling, it was,
22:08
Speaker 4: a sign to stop engaging, like really understanding what OCD
22:12
Speaker 4: feels like in the body, understanding why you are buying
22:15
Speaker 4: into the obsessions and ultimately choosing to change your behaviors
22:20
Speaker 4: even when it feels real and it feels irresponsible to not.
22:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. All of my obsessions are coming back now.
22:28
Speaker 2: He's like, I'm ill.
22:29
Speaker 1: I've done so much fucking work.
22:30
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
22:31
Speaker 1: No, it's amazing. I mean, we can talk about this forever.
22:34
Speaker 1: One of them was I used to not go see
22:38
Speaker 1: movies because if I didn't narrate a movie as it
22:41
Speaker 1: was happening to understand it, I'd watch a movie. While
22:44
Speaker 1: I was watching the movie, I would have to narrate
22:46
Speaker 1: why it's happening and what's happening. And I wouldn't be
22:49
Speaker 1: able to watch the movie.
22:49
Speaker 2: You would pause. No, in my head.
22:50
Speaker 3: Because you felt like you had to like perfectly understand
22:52
Speaker 3: it or else.
22:53
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then after the movie was done, I had
22:55
Speaker 1: to do the entire plot front to back in my
22:57
Speaker 1: head without messing up the story once. It would take
23:00
Speaker 1: me hours.
23:01
Speaker 3: It's exhausting. Whoa. It's so. Yeah.
23:04
Speaker 1: Probably like 24, 25 after I was sick to like 26, 27.
23:10
Speaker 1: Buddies would call me to go to the movie and
23:11
Speaker 1: I would say no. And they'd be like, why? And
23:13
Speaker 1: I wouldn't tell them. And I would only watch shows
23:15
Speaker 1: that movies that I'd already seen and understood. So I
23:18
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to do the compulsion while I was watching
23:19
Speaker 1: a movie.
23:20
Speaker 2: How did you do with the Odyssey last night?
23:21
Speaker 1: It's awesome.
23:22
Speaker 2: Did you review it?
23:23
Speaker 1: Nope. Actually, there's always moments. No, I didn't. Which is great.
23:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was sweet.
23:29
Speaker 1: It is.
23:29
Speaker 3: It can be so unbelievably exhausting.
23:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I used to be worried about
23:50
Speaker 1: what people would think of what I would wear. Do
23:51
Speaker 1: you know Michelle Krask? I do.
23:54
Speaker 3: I don't know her personally, but UCLA.
23:55
Speaker 1: I saw her for a couple of years. Okay.
23:57
Speaker 3: You saw the big dog.
23:58
Speaker 1: I was so fucked up. She said. My mom was like,
24:00
Speaker 1: go to her.
24:01
Speaker 2: She was.
24:01
Speaker 3: She said, honey.
24:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. She got me out of.
24:04
Speaker 3: Things ain't right.
24:05
Speaker 1: She got me out of the obsession, physical stuff. Yeah.
24:08
Speaker 1: And I used to worry about the clothes. So she
24:11
Speaker 1: made me wear the same pair of jeans 10 days
24:13
Speaker 1: in a row to work. Wow. And she said, would
24:15
Speaker 1: anyone notice? Not one person noticed.
24:16
Speaker 3: No, of course.
24:17
Speaker 1: I don't care if you wear shit anymore.
24:19
Speaker 3: Yeah.
24:19
Speaker 1: That's the exposure and response prevention.
24:21
Speaker 2: Do you find that typically people with obsessions and compulsions
24:26
Speaker 2: in one area will develop or have them in many,
24:30
Speaker 2: many areas?
24:31
Speaker 3: That can happen for sure.
24:32
Speaker 4: Sometimes people think about OCD like whack-a-mole, like you get
24:35
Speaker 4: over one and then something else pops up. Although for me,
24:38
Speaker 4: that wasn't the case. Like my obsessions were purely like
24:41
Speaker 4: I had sexual obsessions. That was the main I didn't
24:43
Speaker 4: like I've never been worried about contamination. I don't have
24:46
Speaker 4: hit and run obsessions. I don't have gender identity obsessions.
24:49
Speaker 4: So it just depends on the person.
24:50
Speaker 2: Hit and run obsessions.
24:51
Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness.
24:52
Speaker 4: You worry that like you have hit someone, let's say,
24:55
Speaker 4: while you're driving and then you turn back around to check.
24:58
Speaker 4: And these people are caught like it could be they're
25:01
Speaker 4: late to work. They're getting fired from their jobs. That's
25:03
Speaker 4: why when people think OCD is some cute personality trait.
25:06
Speaker 3: It's not.
25:06
Speaker 4: Imagine feeling like you have to drive your car back
25:08
Speaker 4: around for two hours.
25:10
Speaker 1: This is a good point. Once it goes, oh, I'm
25:11
Speaker 1: so OCD I have to go home.
25:12
Speaker 3: Oh, it fucking kills me.
25:13
Speaker 1: That's so OCD is the taboo. Right. When you do
25:15
Speaker 1: something that's not OCD. Yeah. And you explain it as OCD,
25:18
Speaker 1: it takes away someone's actual.
25:19
Speaker 3: Of course.
25:20
Speaker 4: Like I'm like Khloe Kardashian. So I'm so horny organizing
25:22
Speaker 4: my garage. That's not what OCD is.
25:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:24
Speaker 4: There are just right obsessions where someone feels the urge
25:27
Speaker 4: to do something over and over and over again until
25:29
Speaker 4: it feels right.
25:29
Speaker 3: But that's distressing. It's not like you like to organize.
25:32
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
25:34
Speaker 2: I have a friend who does not have a taboo obsession,
25:38
Speaker 2: but it's more of a cleanliness obsession. It's like things
25:41
Speaker 2: that sometimes sit on the ground cannot sit on a countertop.
25:45
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
25:46
Speaker 2: The rules. And there's so many rules for things. A
25:49
Speaker 2: lot of rules of just cleanliness and where things go
25:52
Speaker 2: and how they go. I imagine to someone with that
25:56
Speaker 2: kind of obsession or compulsion, it's... correct to them like
26:01
Speaker 2: i look at it and go what what are you
26:03
Speaker 2: right and i'm i'm the opposite in terms of clowning
26:07
Speaker 2: this but i i understand that i like do things
26:09
Speaker 2: that are probably too dirty right no but to me
26:12
Speaker 2: i'm like you can let go of these things but
26:14
Speaker 2: to them they're like no this is the right way
26:16
Speaker 2: you know what.
26:16
Speaker 4: I'm saying okay that is what i'm saying yes and
26:19
Speaker 4: you bring up such an important point because i'm not
26:21
Speaker 4: diagnosing your friend and i have no idea what they're
26:22
Speaker 4: experiencing but There's a difference between OCPD and OCD. And
26:26
Speaker 4: a lot of the times people mistake OCPD for OCD.
26:29
Speaker 2: What is that?
26:30
Speaker 4: So obsessive compulsive personality disorder. So with that, that is
26:34
Speaker 4: where you might see a preoccupation, like a preoccupation with perfectionism, order, cleanliness.
26:40
Speaker 4: And it's like my way or the highway. It's this
26:42
Speaker 4: is how things should be done. They should be done
26:44
Speaker 4: in this right way. And like nobody is going to
26:47
Speaker 4: change it. I don't want to work on it. This
26:49
Speaker 4: is just how I see the world. That is more OCPD.
26:52
Speaker 4: Whereas people with OCD don't.
26:54
Speaker 1: Which isn't a problem, OCPD?
26:55
Speaker 3: No, it's a problem.
26:57
Speaker 1: Doesn't need like medication. It's more of like.
26:59
Speaker 4: Well, no, it does impair people. I think that's one
27:00
Speaker 4: of the myths about personality disorders. It can impair people.
27:04
Speaker 4: But oftentimes it's just like this is how I see
27:06
Speaker 4: the world. I am not willing to change. What someone
27:09
Speaker 4: said to me when I was training it, you know,
27:11
Speaker 4: to treat OCD is that when you see OCPD, it's
27:14
Speaker 4: often a family member referring the person. Because the family
27:17
Speaker 4: member is like, I can't live with this anymore. But
27:19
Speaker 4: it's not a problem necessarily for the person experiencing it.
27:22
Speaker 2: Totally. The person experiencing it is like, no, no, no.
27:24
Speaker 3: No, this is right.
27:25
Speaker 4: But with OCD, it would be different. So someone with
27:28
Speaker 4: contamination obsessions, they probably don't want to be doing those things.
27:32
Speaker 4: They don't want to be dictating where other people are
27:35
Speaker 4: putting things. They're doing it because they feel so unbelievably anxious.
27:39
Speaker 4: They recognize that it's compulsive, but it can be really
27:41
Speaker 4: hard to stop.
27:43
Speaker 2: Okay, can you explain OCPD now?
27:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm not an OCPD expert, I'm afraid. I'm like,
27:48
Speaker 4: one time I posted about it and I'm like, I'm
27:49
Speaker 4: gonna get canceled. I'm not an OCPD expert, so I
27:52
Speaker 4: just wanna say that. But it's like, it feels more egocentronic.
27:56
Speaker 4: It's this is right. This is how I want to
27:58
Speaker 4: do things. This is how things should be done. Whereas
28:01
Speaker 4: with OCD, it's I don't want to be doing this thing,
28:04
Speaker 4: but I feel the urge to. My brain is telling
28:06
Speaker 4: me that I have to sanitize for the seventh time.
28:08
Speaker 4: My skin is bleeding. My skin is cut open. I
28:10
Speaker 4: don't want to, but I feel like I have to.
28:13
Speaker 4: With OCPD, it's more like I want to, this is
28:15
Speaker 4: the way.
28:16
Speaker 3: And it's rigid.
28:17
Speaker 4: It can absolutely impair the person and other people around them.
28:21
Speaker 4: Let's say your boss has OCPD and it's like there
28:23
Speaker 4: are hundreds of thousands of rules and you have to
28:25
Speaker 4: do every single thing how they want it to be done.
28:28
Speaker 4: It can be difficult, but they probably don't see it
28:31
Speaker 4: as problematic.
28:33
Speaker 2: Whoa, I didn't ever make that distinction.
28:34
Speaker 3: And people, that's why when people say.
28:36
Speaker 2: I always call OCPD OCD.
28:37
Speaker 3: There we go.
28:38
Speaker 4: That's when people say like, you know, I really like
28:40
Speaker 4: my things to be organized in this way. they're thinking
28:43
Speaker 4: about OCPD, even though that's not even necessarily OCPD.
28:46
Speaker 3: Like there's diagnostic criteria for that.
28:48
Speaker 4: But people, I think that that's why people commonly say,
28:51
Speaker 4: I have OCD, I'm so tidy, or I like things
28:53
Speaker 4: organized when that is not what OCD is about.
28:56
Speaker 3: OCD is distressing and it's unwanted.
28:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Okay. So what are some of
29:03
Speaker 1: the tactics to help with rumination?
29:09
Speaker 3: Really great question.
29:10
Speaker 4: So This is going to sound very simple, but stopping
29:13
Speaker 4: ruminating because it is.
29:15
Speaker 3: I know I'm like, just fucking stop.
29:16
Speaker 1: You can't stop the obsessions and the compulsions.
29:18
Speaker 3: So yeah, you can't stop. That is very important.
29:20
Speaker 4: And that is like a lot of education that I
29:22
Speaker 4: do with clients. If you have a thought like stab
29:23
Speaker 4: them that pops in, trying to stop that thought is
29:25
Speaker 4: actually going to.
29:26
Speaker 3: Increase the likelihood.
29:28
Speaker 1: Exactly.
29:28
Speaker 3: Of you having that.
29:30
Speaker 4: What we can stop is how we are choosing to respond.
29:32
Speaker 4: So if you notice that you're ruminating, can you create
29:35
Speaker 4: awareness of that? And can you actively choose to stop
29:37
Speaker 4: and turn your attention to something that is more helpful
29:40
Speaker 4: in the present moment? It is unbelievably difficult. I'm not
29:43
Speaker 4: saying like, just stop, but that ultimately is the work.
29:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
29:46
Speaker 2: And this is like where the mindfulness practice comes in.
29:48
Speaker 3: Exactly.
29:49
Speaker 4: To create awareness. And it's like, I don't know, trying
29:52
Speaker 4: to solve something in your mind. Can you set that
29:54
Speaker 4: question aside? Can you actively stop?
29:57
Speaker 3: And you can. It's just really uncomfortable.
29:59
Speaker 1: It's hard.
29:59
Speaker 3: It feels irresponsible.
30:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
30:01
Speaker 1: A lot of things I've done is like, oh, not today, OCD.
30:03
Speaker 1: Like a thought comes. I'm like, oh, not today, OCD.
30:04
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
30:06
Speaker 1: Or that's OCD. Or I'm not choosing to listen today.
30:08
Speaker 1: Or like.
30:08
Speaker 3: There's that thought. Moving on.
30:09
Speaker 1: A lot of different things you can tell yourself. Yeah.
30:11
Speaker 4: So that you don't like a non-engagement response so that
30:14
Speaker 4: you don't engage with the obsession.
30:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. I did a lot of ACT work.
30:18
Speaker 2: I love.
30:19
Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
30:20
Speaker 1: That and mindfulness. That's what Jessica helped me with.
30:23
Speaker 3: My fucking favorite.
30:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. It really helped with understanding because it just helped
30:28
Speaker 1: me diffuse all of the thoughts that felt real that
30:32
Speaker 1: weren't real. Like when you diffuse, you can explain diffusion.
30:35
Speaker 4: So diffusion is like when we're fused with a thought,
30:38
Speaker 4: we see it as a fact. We see it as truth.
30:40
Speaker 4: We see it as something that is dangerous. It's threatening
30:43
Speaker 4: in a state of diffusion. We see it for what
30:44
Speaker 4: it is. It's words in the mind. That's really all
30:47
Speaker 4: that it is.
30:47
Speaker 3: It's not an action. It's not a thought.
30:48
Speaker 4: It's not a command. So we can use diffusion techniques
30:51
Speaker 4: to get to that place. For me, this is going
30:54
Speaker 4: to sound wild, but like a heavy lean in was
30:56
Speaker 4: one of my favorite tools. So if my brain said,
30:59
Speaker 4: we should probably give a trigger warning, by the way,
31:00
Speaker 4: for this episode. But if my brain would say something like,
31:03
Speaker 4: you want to fuck that kid? I'm like, yep, I
31:04
Speaker 4: want to fuck every fucking kid. And I would move
31:06
Speaker 4: on with my day. Not because I wanted to.
31:07
Speaker 3: It was horrifying.
31:08
Speaker 4: But because OCD gave me this thought, I'm going to
31:11
Speaker 4: take it up a notch to show it. I don't
31:13
Speaker 4: give a shit. This is so fucking stupid.
31:14
Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah.
31:15
Speaker 2: Can you give another example of like how you would diffuse? Yeah.
31:21
Speaker 3: So heavy lean-ins were my biggest one.
31:23
Speaker 2: What's another example of a heavy lean-in?
31:25
Speaker 4: It's like you're making the thought worse, basically. It's like
31:27
Speaker 4: you're telling– because OCD tries to scare the shit out
31:29
Speaker 4: of you. You can one-up it by saying, you're going
31:32
Speaker 4: to give me this. I'll make it 10 times fucking worse.
31:34
Speaker 4: And then OCD is like, wait, they're not afraid. They're
31:36
Speaker 4: not scared.
31:37
Speaker 1: It's fear based. Yeah.
31:39
Speaker 4: Or using something like a maybe, maybe not. Not that
31:41
Speaker 4: you're actually saying maybe I'm a pedophile, but just like
31:43
Speaker 4: a whatever. I'm going to move on with my day.
31:45
Speaker 1: The thought has power. So you have to take the
31:47
Speaker 1: power away from the thought.
31:48
Speaker 3: That's exactly.
31:49
Speaker 1: Do that by leaning into it and double downing on
31:52
Speaker 1: the thought. Yes. Makes you be like, that's not fucking real.
31:54
Speaker 1: Or you can take it as like, maybe it isn't true.
31:56
Speaker 1: Maybe it is true. And then when you're taking the
31:57
Speaker 1: power from the thought, you're giving your body a sense
32:00
Speaker 1: of like control, again, or your mind a sense of control.
32:02
Speaker 1: And then the thought doesn't feel as real.
32:04
Speaker 4: You could sing the song in a funny voice. You
32:06
Speaker 4: can like narrate it in, let's say, an actor's voice.
32:08
Speaker 4: Like anything to show your brain, this is a thought,
32:11
Speaker 4: this is words in the mind. There's nothing we need
32:13
Speaker 4: to do about this.
32:14
Speaker 1: Another one for me that was really helpful was that
32:16
Speaker 1: the thoughts would come very quickly and then the rumination
32:21
Speaker 1: would start to be automatic. And so my therapist gave
32:24
Speaker 1: me a tool. He's like, if you look at, a
32:27
Speaker 1: music vinyl and you go all the way around. He goes,
32:30
Speaker 1: the middle are these like automatic thoughts that happen so quickly.
32:35
Speaker 1: I'm this, I'm that. And he goes, but you need
32:37
Speaker 1: to like zoom out and look at the way end
32:40
Speaker 1: of it, which are more like value driven thoughts of like,
32:43
Speaker 1: am I acting in accordance to my values by listening
32:45
Speaker 1: to this thought? If I am listening to the thought,
32:48
Speaker 1: the value is aligned and I'm like, slow down. So
32:50
Speaker 1: I would tell myself like, I'm feeling anxious. And I'm
32:54
Speaker 1: ruminating about it doesn't make sense for me to be
32:56
Speaker 1: ruminating about that because I actually don't value that. And
33:01
Speaker 1: I would slow down my thoughts from being so automatic.
33:04
Speaker 3: And OCD opposes people's values.
33:06
Speaker 4: Like I always tell people I was born to be
33:08
Speaker 4: a mom, not because I think I'm like a woman
33:10
Speaker 4: and that's my job, but that is just the thing
33:11
Speaker 4: I've wanted most in life. And then at 19, I
33:14
Speaker 4: had this sudden onset of like sexual intrusive thoughts about
33:16
Speaker 4: kids that I'd never had before. And it really attacks
33:19
Speaker 4: the thing that you love and cherish most, which for
33:21
Speaker 4: me is kids.
33:23
Speaker 2: Was there something that set it off? You don't even
33:25
Speaker 2: have to share what it was.
33:26
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:26
Speaker 2: But like, did you have to resolve that experience or
33:32
Speaker 2: come to peace with the setting off experience to release
33:37
Speaker 2: the OCD? You know what I'm saying?
33:38
Speaker 3: This is a really great question. Fascinating question.
33:41
Speaker 4: So no, I was, my therapist asked me like, were
33:43
Speaker 4: you molested? And it makes sense to ask that question.
33:45
Speaker 4: Why would you start having these thoughts out of the blue?
33:47
Speaker 3: I wasn't. I truly have no fucking idea what my
33:50
Speaker 3: brain broke that day. I don't.
33:51
Speaker 4: And I think that that's, One of the scariest things
33:54
Speaker 4: for people with OCD is it can happen in 0.2
33:56
Speaker 4: seconds and your entire world changes. I do think that
34:00
Speaker 4: my anorexia contributed. I was super malnourished and that impacts
34:03
Speaker 4: the brain. But like I worked on the anorexia that
34:07
Speaker 4: didn't cure the OCD. So there's this common myth that
34:10
Speaker 4: if you just figure out what caused it or if
34:12
Speaker 4: it's trauma based, then all of your OCD symptoms go away.
34:15
Speaker 3: And that's not the case. You still have to treat
34:16
Speaker 3: the OCD.
34:17
Speaker 1: I think it's important to know that like it is
34:19
Speaker 1: very hard to cure yourself of OCD. I don't think
34:22
Speaker 1: you live with it better.
34:23
Speaker 4: So yes, I will say I don't meet diagnostic criteria anymore,
34:26
Speaker 4: which is insane to me. Like I was probably like,
34:30
Speaker 4: I was so unbelievably unwell. And now I like, I
34:33
Speaker 4: rarely have thoughts like that.
34:34
Speaker 3: I really like, I.
34:35
Speaker 4: Don't feel like I have OCD. Not everyone gets to
34:38
Speaker 4: that place. A lot of people do manage it throughout
34:40
Speaker 4: the lifespan.
34:41
Speaker 1: Does OCD change? If it's one thing, does it change
34:43
Speaker 1: to another? If you have like a mental compulsion, it
34:45
Speaker 1: hasn't for you.
34:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does for some people, especially in treatment.
34:48
Speaker 4: Like if you If I have my client, let's say,
34:50
Speaker 4: cut out physical compulsions, like I say, we're no longer
34:52
Speaker 4: going to check the stove to see that it's off,
34:55
Speaker 4: then they might start to do mental compulsions. Like I'm
34:57
Speaker 4: going to picture the stove in my mind to make
34:59
Speaker 4: sure that it's off. So it definitely can happen for people.
35:02
Speaker 4: For me, it never morphed into anything else, which is
35:05
Speaker 4: also fascinating.
35:06
Speaker 3: It's like, what the fuck?
35:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what's most.
35:08
Speaker 3: I wish I knew.
35:08
Speaker 1: I think what's the most fucked up part that I
35:11
Speaker 1: feel that I've learned over time is that there probably
35:14
Speaker 1: would have been a time where I could have got
35:16
Speaker 1: a better handle on my OCD, but because... trauma got
35:20
Speaker 1: infused with OCD and then OCD manufactured into no longer,
35:24
Speaker 1: but into like uncertainty and fear, right. Trauma latched onto
35:27
Speaker 1: my OCD.
35:28
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
35:28
Speaker 1: Right. Where it was like one, my OCD was like
35:30
Speaker 1: behavior or whatever. And then all of a sudden I
35:32
Speaker 1: got really sick and I lost people and I yada, yada,
35:34
Speaker 1: yada near death. And then it's like, Oh, OCD became
35:38
Speaker 1: uncertainty and fear. And so now OCD, everyone's life has
35:42
Speaker 1: uncertainty and fear. Right. Now my OCD is latched to it.
35:45
Speaker 3: Yeah.
35:45
Speaker 1: And so now anything with uncertainty and fear causes rumination
35:48
Speaker 1: and compulsion.
35:49
Speaker 4: What you said at first is so interesting to this.
35:51
Speaker 4: Like if I had gotten a handle on it earlier,
35:53
Speaker 4: I used to think about that all the time because
35:55
Speaker 4: I went 12 months like zero idea what was happening.
35:58
Speaker 4: I didn't want to Google like, why am I having these?
36:00
Speaker 4: I thought the Internet was going to say you're a pedophile.
36:02
Speaker 4: And I knew that I wasn't. So I went 12
36:04
Speaker 4: months without knowing what was happening. I finally Googled and
36:07
Speaker 4: then I got treatment. three months after that, but I
36:10
Speaker 4: didn't start seeing the OCD therapist for even a few
36:12
Speaker 4: years after. And I think that like, if I would
36:15
Speaker 4: have known immediately, I probably wouldn't have suffered as much.
36:18
Speaker 3: And that's, it's like so painful to look back on.
36:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is.
36:38
Speaker 2: Like how much shame do you still have around the
36:42
Speaker 2: OCD stuff that you struggle with or that you did
36:45
Speaker 2: struggle with it? And do you think that your cancer
36:51
Speaker 2: made you sort of stop focusing on it? Like I've
36:56
Speaker 2: never heard about this. You're talking, you're so vulnerable with
36:58
Speaker 2: me and you haven't shared a lot of the stuff
37:02
Speaker 2: you shared today.
37:03
Speaker 1: It's so, the reason I, yes, the reason I, it's
37:05
Speaker 1: so hard for someone who doesn't have OCD to understand it.
37:08
Speaker 1: it's almost like not worth explaining it because it to
37:11
Speaker 1: me it's just like the reaction is that's crazy that
37:15
Speaker 1: you think that or it doesn't make sense in my
37:17
Speaker 1: brain that you can be thinking like that so it's
37:20
Speaker 1: very like.
37:21
Speaker 4: Isolating so isolating and I think especially for men again
37:27
Speaker 4: who like earlier you were saying you know it felt
37:29
Speaker 4: so crazy and to me I'm like wait that's so
37:31
Speaker 4: interesting that being afraid of choking, let's say it feels
37:34
Speaker 4: so shameful to you because, you know, of course, there
37:37
Speaker 4: are other taboo obsessions. But I think for men, that
37:39
Speaker 4: shame and stigma gets in the way from accessing help,
37:42
Speaker 4: from telling other people about what they're experiencing. And it
37:45
Speaker 4: sounds like that is part of what has happened.
37:48
Speaker 1: It's just a hard road, right? Because it's like I
37:51
Speaker 1: can explain it about one thing, but it isn't. It's
37:54
Speaker 1: so much deeper than that. And so the problem with
37:56
Speaker 1: OCD that I was like trying to over explain myself
37:59
Speaker 1: all the time actually just makes it worse. Like I
38:01
Speaker 1: just started telling my girlfriend about it like a month
38:03
Speaker 1: ago because it was starting to affect the relationship negatively.
38:05
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:06
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, shit. I've never had my OCD
38:09
Speaker 1: affect something that I care about so much.
38:12
Speaker 3: Of course.
38:13
Speaker 1: And that's been hard, too, because I'm like, oh, fuck.
38:16
Speaker 1: And that's making me address it more head on. But,
38:18
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not committed to you. Right. So like
38:21
Speaker 1: it's not going to.
38:22
Speaker 2: Never had to.
38:22
Speaker 1: Never had to. But I but I know that like
38:25
Speaker 1: it's starting to show up in the podcast.
38:27
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:28
Speaker 1: Right. You're seeing it. Because now we're committed to each other.
38:30
Speaker 1: And so I think that is a challenge where I'm like, oh,
38:34
Speaker 1: like not that like don't look at me different because
38:37
Speaker 1: I know who I am and I know like it
38:38
Speaker 1: doesn't matter that I have it, but I'm still doing
38:41
Speaker 1: a ton of work right now. Like I would say
38:44
Speaker 1: in the last like year and a half, it's been
38:47
Speaker 1: the biggest growth area for me. And I think I'm
38:50
Speaker 1: still just like understanding how it's affecting me today. Whereas
38:55
Speaker 1: like early on behavioral, whatever, Cancer, trauma, death, loss, OCD. Like,
39:00
Speaker 1: I feel like it's the last one of the biggest
39:04
Speaker 1: things that I have yet to fully comprehend. And I'm
39:07
Speaker 1: still like in it. And I like that I'm in it.
39:10
Speaker 1: And I'm closer to like getting it more. And that's
39:12
Speaker 1: probably why I do have some shame around it. But
39:14
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm talking.
39:15
Speaker 3: Shame is huge for people with OCD.
39:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:18
Speaker 3: It keeps people sick.
39:19
Speaker 4: It keeps people from talking about what they're like. I
39:21
Speaker 4: could not say my intrusive thoughts out loud to my
39:23
Speaker 4: own therapist.
39:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:25
Speaker 3: She was going to call the police and report me.
39:27
Speaker 1: I mean, it took me a year and a half. Oh,
39:28
Speaker 1: my God. I would say it in silence.
39:30
Speaker 3: Lying is so common, too.
39:31
Speaker 1: I lied to Michelle Krask. Yes.
39:33
Speaker 3: She's like, what are you?
39:34
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
39:34
Speaker 3: I'm just worried the door is unlocked.
39:35
Speaker 1: I literally lied to her.
39:37
Speaker 3: She's like, why are you getting better? I don't know.
39:39
Speaker 3: It must be you.
39:40
Speaker 1: I'm so embarrassed. I didn't lie to Jessica, but I
39:43
Speaker 1: wasn't honest. I was more about talking about cancer and depression.
39:47
Speaker 1: I wasn't talking about OCD. It wasn't until after Jessica
39:51
Speaker 1: with that therapist that I just started working on OCD.
39:53
Speaker 1: Cause I was like, she's not going to fucking get it. Right. Yeah.
39:57
Speaker 2: For someone that doesn't have OCD, I agree. It can
39:59
Speaker 2: be hard to really understand the mind of someone that
40:02
Speaker 2: does because you maybe have the thought, but there's no obsession.
40:05
Speaker 2: There's no, of course. Right.
40:06
Speaker 3: Yeah.
40:06
Speaker 2: How can someone that doesn't have OCD, but maybe has
40:09
Speaker 2: some people with OCD in their life, better understand, better
40:12
Speaker 2: empathize with someone with OCD.
40:14
Speaker 3: Okay.
40:15
Speaker 4: What, and maybe you won't answer this, but like, what
40:17
Speaker 4: is the scariest thought that you could think? Or image
40:22
Speaker 4: that you could have, let's say. You're like, I don't
40:25
Speaker 4: even know.
40:26
Speaker 2: Scary?
40:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, like literally, the truly like, the scary.
40:29
Speaker 2: Ah, I don't know what I'm thinking about.
40:32
Speaker 3: Period. Okay, but that's it.
40:34
Speaker 4: Imagine that then, all the time, like over and over
40:37
Speaker 4: and over and over and over while you're trying to
40:39
Speaker 4: talk to people, while you're trying to have sex with your.
40:41
Speaker 3: Girlfriend, while you were, imagine that. Horrific. And that is
40:46
Speaker 3: often what I say to people who want to try
40:48
Speaker 3: to understand.
40:48
Speaker 2: You have no control over that.
40:49
Speaker 3: Zero control over that thought popping in.
40:52
Speaker 4: Imagine how hard that would be to live like that
40:55
Speaker 4: and to feel like this could be true about me.
40:58
Speaker 4: And you feel so afraid to tell other people like
41:00
Speaker 4: that is usually what I say. Like imagine the worst
41:02
Speaker 4: thought you could ever think someone dying or whatever. And
41:04
Speaker 4: then it's just 24 seven.
41:06
Speaker 1: Wow.
41:07
Speaker 3: And there's no there's no escape from your brain.
41:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
41:09
Speaker 4: Even like I was afraid to sleep because I thought
41:12
Speaker 4: that I would see myself carry out my obsessions in
41:14
Speaker 4: my dreams.
41:15
Speaker 3: Like there is truly no escape from OCD.
41:17
Speaker 1: Something I think would be great to explain. Just talk
41:19
Speaker 1: about relationship OCD.
41:21
Speaker 3: That is very common as well.
41:22
Speaker 4: And that goes back to reasonable doubt versus obsessional doubt.
41:26
Speaker 4: When people have relationship OCD, they are experiencing doubt that
41:29
Speaker 4: is not rooted in reality. What if I'm not attracted
41:32
Speaker 4: to my partner? What if I don't actually love my
41:33
Speaker 4: partner enough? Even though they do love their partner, even
41:36
Speaker 4: though they are attracted, they are stuck on this thought
41:39
Speaker 4: that they don't align with that does not feel true.
41:42
Speaker 4: And then they're performing compulsive rituals like, even during sex,
41:45
Speaker 4: checking over and over, am I feeling the right way?
41:47
Speaker 3: Am I attracted to my partner?
41:49
Speaker 4: And then that can create a feeling of numbness or
41:52
Speaker 4: like I've checked so many times, I don't even know
41:54
Speaker 4: what I feel for my partner anymore. So it's doubts
41:57
Speaker 4: about the rightness of a relationship or about the rightness
42:00
Speaker 4: of one's partner. It could be fixating on a very,
42:02
Speaker 4: very like minor flaw that you don't even care about
42:05
Speaker 4: and your brain just like, it pops in 24 seven.
42:09
Speaker 4: And it really impacts people because they don't want to
42:11
Speaker 4: be thinking these things but it's 24 seven. And then
42:15
Speaker 4: sometimes people feel the urge to compulsively confess to their partner.
42:18
Speaker 4: And it's like, imagine being on the receiving end of like,
42:21
Speaker 4: I worry, I don't love you.
42:22
Speaker 3: I worry that I'm not attracted to you. I worry
42:24
Speaker 3: that you're ugly.
42:24
Speaker 4: And it was, yeah, it's so hard for both people.
42:27
Speaker 1: Okay.
42:29
Speaker 2: Can we focus on relationship OCD for a second? Like
42:31
Speaker 2: how does one maneuver that? Like what is the exposure
42:35
Speaker 2: and response to relationship OCD?
42:37
Speaker 4: So It could be like I tend to look at
42:40
Speaker 4: what a person is avoiding in their life. So oftentimes
42:43
Speaker 4: people with relationship OCD avoid sex and intimacy because they're
42:46
Speaker 4: worried that they're not going to have the right feelings.
42:49
Speaker 4: And this actually happens a lot for men as well.
42:50
Speaker 4: People can have obsessions related to like sexual performance. So
42:54
Speaker 4: what if I'm not like performing well enough?
42:56
Speaker 3: But I look at what people are avoiding.
42:58
Speaker 4: So it could be like having sex with your partner
43:00
Speaker 4: and then practicing sex. not checking during, not ruminating afterwards.
43:05
Speaker 4: If sex is values-based, of course, I'm not going to
43:07
Speaker 4: say go have sex if someone's not willing to. It
43:09
Speaker 4: could be watching rom-coms if that is what triggers relationship obsessions,
43:14
Speaker 4: which it does sometimes. You see this perfect relationship and
43:17
Speaker 4: then it feels like the, what if this is not
43:19
Speaker 4: the one for me, feels very real. Comparing yourself to
43:22
Speaker 4: the person on screen. So I might have them watch
43:24
Speaker 4: a rom-com while simultaneously cutting out any kind of comparison
43:28
Speaker 4: or rumination.
43:29
Speaker 3: It could look like going on a date with your
43:31
Speaker 3: partner and not.
43:32
Speaker 4: Checking in to see how you're feeling during.
43:34
Speaker 1: Right.
43:35
Speaker 4: Tons of different exposures. And response prevention is very important.
43:39
Speaker 4: I think people think with OCD, it's all about the exposure.
43:42
Speaker 4: I think response prevention is maybe even a bit more
43:45
Speaker 4: important than the exposure.
43:46
Speaker 2: That's what I was going to ask.
43:47
Speaker 3: You have exposure all the time around your partner.
43:49
Speaker 2: If you have a compulsion, how do you do response prevention? Like,
43:54
Speaker 2: isn't that.
43:56
Speaker 3: It's practicing not... which is very difficult.
43:59
Speaker 4: It's I'm going to choose to be with my partner
44:01
Speaker 4: right now and I'm going to do something other than
44:03
Speaker 4: checking in on my feelings.
44:04
Speaker 2: You have to like replace the thought with another thought,
44:06
Speaker 2: I would assume.
44:07
Speaker 4: No, you like I think coming back to the present moment,
44:10
Speaker 4: that's where I love mindfulness and OCD treatment. Like, can
44:13
Speaker 4: you focus on what your partner is saying? Can you
44:15
Speaker 4: be in this experience instead of ruminating about the rightness
44:18
Speaker 4: of the relationship or checking internally?
44:21
Speaker 2: Got it.
44:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
44:21
Speaker 2: Because I'm just thinking about like, don't think about a
44:23
Speaker 2: pink elephant. And that's all you're thinking about.
44:25
Speaker 1: Right. Of course.
44:26
Speaker 2: For someone that's listening, like how do they.
44:29
Speaker 4: So and that's the difference between obsession and compulsion. We're
44:31
Speaker 4: not saying like, you know, while you're on a date
44:33
Speaker 4: with your partner, you might have intrusive thoughts like he's
44:35
Speaker 4: ugly or he's not the one for me. Again, you
44:37
Speaker 4: don't align with those thoughts. We're not stopping those. We
44:40
Speaker 4: are choosing not to engage with them. That is the
44:42
Speaker 4: response prevention.
44:43
Speaker 3: Got it.
44:44
Speaker 1: What's your take on OCD now, Kev?
44:46
Speaker 2: Fascinating. A lot more empathy for it, probably more than anything.
44:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
44:50
Speaker 2: Just like understanding how out of control it is, if
44:54
Speaker 2: that makes sense.
44:54
Speaker 3: It's like the worst. I want to ask you this,
44:56
Speaker 3: but I'm afraid to ask you this.
44:57
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask it. Okay.
44:59
Speaker 3: Was cancer or OCD worse for you?
45:02
Speaker 1: Oh, wow. I mean, it's so hard to answer that
45:11
Speaker 1: because it feels like cancer was hard when it was hard. Yeah.
45:15
Speaker 1: Now OCD is hard because it is hard. Yeah. And
45:18
Speaker 1: I kind of like don't separate them that much anymore
45:22
Speaker 1: in this like integration of my life. Absolutely. Whereas like
45:25
Speaker 1: when I fully integrated cancer back into my life in
45:27
Speaker 1: my early 30s and everything that I went through during
45:30
Speaker 1: that integration became a lot of OCD. And so I
45:33
Speaker 1: think I kind of just think of them as like
45:35
Speaker 1: one part of my identity.
45:37
Speaker 2: Okay.
45:38
Speaker 1: And I think that's been probably more helpful because I
45:41
Speaker 1: don't think I I don't think the OCD would have
45:44
Speaker 1: been as bad if I didn't have cancer. Yeah. And
45:46
Speaker 1: I don't think.
45:48
Speaker 3: That makes sense.
45:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think I look. Yeah, I guess. How's
45:51
Speaker 1: that sound?
45:52
Speaker 3: Well, no, it's up to.
45:53
Speaker 1: No.
45:53
Speaker 3: Well, the reason that I.
45:54
Speaker 1: It's hard to know the answer.
45:55
Speaker 4: The reason that I ask that, though, and this is
45:57
Speaker 4: not everyone I want to preface this, but. I have
46:00
Speaker 4: people who come into my office and quite literally say
46:02
Speaker 4: I survived cancer five times and my OCD has been
46:05
Speaker 4: a hundred times more traumatizing and debilitating.
46:07
Speaker 3: And that can just put into perspective.
46:09
Speaker 4: How debilitating OCD can be.
46:12
Speaker 3: Again, it's not everyone.
46:13
Speaker 4: I do not want to say that everyone with cancer,
46:15
Speaker 4: you know, but I think OCD can be traumatizing.
46:18
Speaker 3: Like I've had big T trauma, like assaults.
46:21
Speaker 4: And I would choose that every day of my life
46:23
Speaker 4: if it meant not going through what I did at
46:25
Speaker 4: age 19.
46:25
Speaker 1: Yeah.
46:27
Speaker 2: This has been such an enlightening conversation.
46:29
Speaker 3: I'm so glad.
46:30
Speaker 1: Awesome.
46:31
Speaker 3: I'm so glad.
46:31
Speaker 1: I loved it.
46:32
Speaker 2: It's not often you get to have a conversation where
46:35
Speaker 2: you feel like you're walking into a city that you've
46:37
Speaker 2: never been in.
46:38
Speaker 1: Yeah.
46:38
Speaker 2: It's completely different than most of the cities you've been in.
46:41
Speaker 1: Totally.
46:42
Speaker 2: Thanks for definitely educating me, but also I think a
46:45
Speaker 2: lot of people. Yeah. And helping them understand.
46:48
Speaker 3: Can I say one more thing?
46:49
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
46:49
Speaker 3: If you are a man experiencing this, like you are
46:51
Speaker 3: so not alone.
46:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
46:52
Speaker 3: Seek out therapy.
46:54
Speaker 4: OCD therapists are so used to hearing this. Like there's
46:56
Speaker 4: nothing that you're going to say that is going to
46:58
Speaker 4: scare them. And I really think that it is so
47:00
Speaker 4: attractive for men to go to therapy.
47:02
Speaker 2: Like, please.
47:03
Speaker 1: Keep saying it.
47:03
Speaker 2: Please.
47:04
Speaker 1: Our goal is to get a million guys.
47:05
Speaker 4: I'm literally, I'm just going to start dragging them in
47:07
Speaker 4: on the street. I'm like, have you heard of therapy?
47:09
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah.
47:10
Speaker 3: Oh, no, I'm scared.
47:12
Speaker 2: No.
47:14
Speaker 1: Also, tell people where they can find you.
47:16
Speaker 4: Oh, Instagram at Allegra Kastens and then TikTok at Allegra Kastens.
47:21
Speaker 2: You just said, it's so attractive. Yes.
47:23
Speaker 3: Hot guys do therapy.
47:24
Speaker 1: Yes. Please. Please.
47:26
Speaker 4: It's weird because I was thinking about like the shame
47:28
Speaker 4: and stigma of men. Now I'm like, I think that
47:31
Speaker 4: I have stigma towards men who don't go to therapy.
47:34
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't want to fucking go.
47:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. Go.
47:37
Speaker 3: Wait, this is incredible.
47:38
Speaker 1: You got it. Yeah.
47:39
Speaker 3: Oh my God.
47:40
Speaker 1: Wow.
47:40
Speaker 3: I'm going to carry this around.
47:41
Speaker 1: I'm just going to, please. Thank you so much.
47:47
Speaker 3: I'm so glad.
47:48
Speaker 1: Thank you.
47:48
Speaker 3: Hopefully it was helpful.
47:49
Speaker 1: It was.
47:50
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the episode. We hope you loved it.
47:53
Speaker 2: So our goal is to get a million guys into
47:55
Speaker 2: therapy with this show. And the biggest thing you could
47:57
Speaker 2: do to support is leave us a five-star review on
48:00
Speaker 2: Apple or Spotify.
48:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kev and I are so passionate about these conversations.
48:04
Speaker 1: It makes such a big impact on the show and
48:06
Speaker 1: it really helps us reach more people who need to
48:09
Speaker 1: hear conversations like this.
48:11
Speaker 2: You can also watch the full show on YouTube with
48:13
Speaker 2: videos so you can actually feel like you're in the
48:16
Speaker 2: room with us getting therapy.
48:18
Speaker 1: Because therapy is expensive. But our podcast is free. So
48:23
Speaker 1: go subscribe, follow, rate, and review. And if you have
48:27
Speaker 1: any feedback on topics you want us to cover, just
48:29
Speaker 1: shoot us a note on Instagram. We'll see you next week.