Latest / The Soap Box Podcast / Why you need to shout louder about doing good, with Riannon Palmer

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Why you need to shout louder about doing good, with Riannon Palmer · The Soap Box Podcast

• 1:17
  Peta: Today's guest is building something rare in the PR world, a business that delivers results without burning people out.
• 1:27
  Peta: Riannon is the founder of Lemon, that's LEM dash UHN, an award-winning B Corp and feelgood PR agency that works exclusively with companies that care.
• 1:39
  Peta: She launched the business in 2021 to fill a very real gap in the industry, an agency that actually puts people first.
• 1:47
  Peta: Why?
• 1:47
  Peta: Because the PR industry has a problem.
• 1:52
  Peta: 91% of PR professionals say they've struggled with their mental health in the last year, and yet toxic working cultures are still seen as part of the job.
• 2:02
  Peta: And so I dig in with Hanon into what it really looks like to build a company that breaks that mold from menstrual leave and work anywhere policies to handling 8:00 PM client emergency calls without sending your team into burnout.
• 2:17
  Peta: We also talk about what most people misunderstand about pr, why so many purpose-led founders are reluctant to promote their work and why doing good isn't enough.
• 2:27
  Peta: You have to be willing to talk about it.
• 2:30
  Peta: If you are someone who wants to build a company that people are proud to work for, or you are a founder trying to get your story into the press without selling your soul, then this one's for you.
• 2:41
  Peta: Grab your notebook and listen to Hanon.
• 2:43
  Peta: Get on her soapbox.
• 2:44
  Peta: If.
• 2:46
  Peta: Rhiannon, it's really lovely to have you on the Soapbox podcast.
• 2:49
  Peta: Thank you for joining me.
• 2:51
  Riannon: Thank you for having me.
• 2:52
  Riannon: Excited to be here.
• 2:53
  Peta: Yeah, that's great.
• 2:53
  Peta: So, for people who do not know who you are and what you do, um, can you fill'em in a little bit and tell'em a bit about yourself and how you got here?
• 3:02
  Riannon: Yeah, of course.
• 3:03
  Riannon: So I am the founder of Lemon, a PR agency for purpose led businesses.
• 3:08
  Riannon: I have always worked in the PR industry and I, like many other founders, was working during the pandemic and came up with the idea of, um, lemon.
• 3:17
  Riannon: So I was working in the PR industry, which is always crazy hours.
• 3:20
  Riannon: Um, really intense.
• 3:22
  Riannon: Um, 91% of PR professionals have struggled with their mental health in the past year, and the PRCA survey comes back with the same results year on year.
• 3:29
  Riannon: Um, but then the pandemic was even crazier.
• 3:31
  Riannon: Lots of my colleagues were furloughed.
• 3:33
  Riannon: So I was working kind of crazy hours and lots of, um, workload and stress load as well.
• 3:37
  Riannon: So I wanted to work for a better type of PR agency that cared about its employees and worked with better brands, and there wasn't one, so I started Lemon in May, 2021, so just had our four year anniversary, which is crazy how time flies.
• 3:52
  Peta: That's amazing.
• 3:53
  Peta: Yes.
• 3:54
  Peta: I think sometimes I, I'm always meeting women who are like, well, this doesn't exist, so, uh, I'm just gonna make it.
• 4:00
  Peta: Um, it.
• 4:01
  Peta: always makes me laugh.
• 4:02
  Riannon: Yeah, I love learning about other people's kind of things.
• 4:04
  Riannon: It's usually, I think, especially female founders, there's quite often a purpose behind why they started their company, so it's always really great to hear about it.
• 4:11
  Peta: Yeah.
• 4:11
  Peta: No, that's really cool.
• 4:13
  Peta: Um, and so when people come on the soapbox podcast I like to ask them what their soapbox is, the thing that kind of keeps them awake or, um, talking other people's ears off at parties.
• 4:23
  Peta: So what is your soapbox that we're gonna talk about today?
• 4:27
  Riannon: Yes.
• 4:27
  Riannon: I think it's that kind of that work-life balance and um, making sure that you enjoy what you do.
• 4:33
  Riannon: I think we spend such a big portion of our life at works and so many people hate their jobs.
• 4:38
  Riannon: Um, and it's that Sunday night dread thing that everyone gets.
• 4:41
  Riannon: So I'm really passionate about doing something that you care about, um, and working for a company that cares about you as well.
• 4:47
  Riannon: 'cause sadly, lots of companies, um, yeah, don't care about their employees too much.
• 4:51
  Riannon: And I'm hearing lots of stories of people being asked to go back into the office five days a week and not having that flexibility, which I know so many people really enjoyed that they did get out of, um, the pandemic.
• 5:01
  Riannon: Um, so I'm just really passionate about making sure people can have a happier work life, which in turn leads to a happier life.
• 5:08
  Peta: That's great.
• 5:09
  Peta: I love that.
• 5:10
  Peta: Yes.
• 5:10
  Peta: Big fan.
• 5:11
  Peta: Um, so can you tell me a little bit about how, what your kind of working life was like?
• 5:16
  Peta: Before you started Lemon.
• 5:18
  Riannon: Yeah, so it's especially in the height of the pandemic.
• 5:21
  Riannon: Um, I would log on round.
• 5:23
  Riannon: I'd probably check some emails on my phone when I woke up about like seven ish, and then I would start work about eight o'clock and then.
• 5:30
  Riannon: Uh, about like 7:00 PM I'd have a quick dinner and then I'd continue and take my laptop to the sofa and continue till about half 10.
• 5:37
  Riannon: And then I'd work on Saturdays as well.
• 5:39
  Riannon: Usually not too much on Sunday, but quite often I would check like things just about like 7:00 PM so I know it wouldn't be too bad on Monday.
• 5:46
  Riannon: Um, so it was just really intense.
• 5:48
  Riannon: Um, I think obviously with the pandemic, lots of people were put on furlough, but those of us that were left behind, it was just, um, a really intense environment.
• 5:55
  Riannon: But generally the PR industry.
• 5:57
  Riannon: But kind of that's not extraordinary.
• 5:59
  Riannon: Those, those hours.
• 5:59
  Riannon: I, I've had a friend who, um, she, she really wanted to join the PR industry, so she joined it and then she was working till 1:00 AM every day and she was like, this is not what I signed up for.
• 6:10
  Riannon: Um, and I think it's something people don't really realize as well because um, there's all that kind of talk about those, lots of the corporate industries that it's huge hours and kind of, you do get compensated better for it as well, but there's not as much discussion in PR and there is a certain need to be.
• 6:24
  Riannon: Always on something might come up, or like a Friday evening, it's always Friday evening that something comes up and you need to jump on it because we are working with the press and we need to go with what happens there.
• 6:34
  Riannon: Um, but there's definitely kind of, it doesn't need to be every day.
• 6:37
  Riannon: And for example, when we have that person, that client that calls at 8:00 PM on a Friday night and someone has to jump on it.
• 6:43
  Riannon: They'll get that time in lieu back so that they can know that there are those times that you're gonna have to jump on stuff, but also you get rewarded and you get that time back.
• 6:51
  Riannon: So it is that kind of, um, balance, which is really important.
• 6:54
  Riannon: Nothing's gonna be amazing, but it's just finding that balance in life.
• 6:57
  Peta: Yeah, definitely.
• 6:58
  Peta: And so what was it that drew you to the PR industry in the first place?
• 7:01
  Peta: Obviously not.
• 7:03
  Riannon: Yes.
• 7:04
  Riannon: Yeah, I, uh, I act I didn't know about the long hours before.
• 7:07
  Riannon: Actually.
• 7:07
  Riannon: They keep that quiet, I think.
• 7:09
  Riannon: Um, my, uh, sister and her wife both work in marketing and they had talked about PR and said that they thought it would be a good fit for me.
• 7:16
  Riannon: Um, I like probably most people didn't really know what PR was before.
• 7:19
  Riannon: You don't really, it's kind of that secret part of marketing that people dunno.
• 7:22
  Riannon: It really is.
• 7:24
  Riannon: Um, and yeah, I went for an, a grad scheme, um, after university and I got, I got the, um, job, so it went from there, really.
• 7:31
  Riannon: Um, but I think PI is such a wonderful industry because it's such very, you get to do from kind of the sales side of things, a kind of a bit of a psychology perspective, writing strategy, creative ideas.
• 7:44
  Riannon: Um, but the sad thing about it is that so many people are leaving the industry now'cause of the, the downsides of it.
• 7:50
  Riannon: Even though it's such a great career and the, the amount of people that are being lost in the PR industry is, is huge, especially when they get to that mid-level, um, side of things or people that go on to have families and they realize there's no flexibility within it.
• 8:02
  Riannon: Um, so it's, it's a real shame and it's something that I hope that in the future it won't just be me harping on about that work-life balance and, and positive agency.
• 8:10
  Riannon: It will be the norm, but it seems like quite a far away at the minute.
• 8:13
  Peta: Yeah.
• 8:13
  Peta: So like in your, with other people in the industry who aren't working for Lemon, how have you seen it kind of affect them and their lives and their health?
• 8:22
  Riannon: Yeah, I've seen lots of people leave the industry.
• 8:24
  Riannon: Um, I had one colleague, she's now become a teacher.
• 8:26
  Riannon: Um, I saw some other people that have gone on more to the kind of the marketing perspective.
• 8:30
  Riannon: Um, especially if you go in-house, the hours are better, um, compared to the agency life.
• 8:35
  Riannon: They think it's like with many things.
• 8:37
  Riannon: Lots of agencies know that if they put, um, fewer people on.
• 8:42
  Riannon: Um, more accounts, then it'll be more profits and they'll have a bigger margin, which is great in the short run for the business, but actually in the longer run, it's gonna lead to people leaving the business.
• 8:51
  Riannon: Um, and also that high turnover that people see.
• 8:54
  Riannon: And then clients always get annoyed when it's a new person on the account every month.
• 8:58
  Peta: No, that's not helpful from, yeah, from the client side, that continuity.
• 9:01
  Peta: And you want people who are fresh and excited rather than jaded and exhausted because they've been up till 1:00 AM.
• 9:08
  Riannon: And, and I'm a big believer as well with when you, when when people are happier, then they're gonna deliver better work as well.
• 9:13
  Riannon: So it's a, a win-win for the employee and for the employer.
• 9:17
  Riannon: So if we can all make sure everyone's a little bit happier at work, and it doesn't have to be huge things, I mean.
• 9:22
  Riannon: Like, obviously there are some things that it would be great to be able to have kind of, um, greater maternity and paternity pay and things like that, that have more of an expense than our company.
• 9:30
  Riannon: It's even just that flexibility and understanding is something that's free for everyone to do, and it's actually such a big benefit for people.
• 9:37
  Riannon: We have things like.
• 9:38
  Riannon: Flexible hours, um, that time in lieu.
• 9:41
  Riannon: We have a menstrual policy.
• 9:43
  Riannon: We have a work from anywhere policy where people can work from, um, a country outside the UK for up to 45 days a year.
• 9:48
  Riannon: So it's these little things that actually aren't really too much of a cost to the employer, um, are really appreciated by employees.
• 9:56
  Riannon: So it's something that any company could do, however big or small they are.
• 10:00
  Riannon: Um, and unfortunately, none of the big companies seem to be doing anything like this.
• 10:05
  Peta: No, that's true.
• 10:05
  Peta: So yeah.
• 10:06
  Peta: So let's talk about that for a little bit.
• 10:07
  Peta: Let's talk about lemon.
• 10:08
  Peta: Like what, what is it that makes your PR agency different?
• 10:15
  Riannon: I think we've got quite a few things.
• 10:17
  Riannon: I think the, the main thing and the reason why I started Lemon is that kind of.
• 10:21
  Riannon: That, um, happier people, which I think does deliver better results for clients as well.
• 10:25
  Riannon: And then working with purpose side businesses, we became a B Corp this year after a year and a half of doing all the fund paperwork and everything.
• 10:33
  Riannon: So it was really nice to finally have it through.
• 10:35
  Riannon: Um, and it was like that stamp of, approval for all of those things that we had been doing all along.
• 10:40
  Riannon: Um, but it's nice that people can go to our website now when they see it, and it's a nice easy accreditation.
• 10:46
  Riannon: And then we kind of do a mix of digital and traditional PR as well.
• 10:49
  Riannon: Quite often it's people go for two agencies to do the digital pr, which is more SEO led, and the traditional pr, which is more brand awareness.
• 10:56
  Riannon: So we do a mix of them both, and half our teams split between the two.
• 10:59
  Riannon: Um.
• 11:00
  Riannon: At the core of it, I think it is that, which is really sad, but there's just not many PR agencies that are caring about employees.
• 11:05
  Riannon: I often get emails from people saying they're looking for jobs because they wanna work for a better type of PR agency.
• 11:11
  Riannon: Unfortunately, we're a small agency and obviously it's limited to the amount of people we can't employ everyone.
• 11:16
  Riannon: Um, but it's just such a shame that it's not the norm anymore, that that is kind of there, that isn't the norm, that people can have a happy work environment.
• 11:24
  Peta: Yeah.
• 11:25
  Peta: And what difference does it make to kind of the, maybe the team that you've built or the kind of, um, the kind of work that you can do?
• 11:33
  Riannon: Yeah, I mean in terms of the, the team that we've built as we, one of the things actually, so we used to have a, a London office and we went remote, uh, last, last year now, so 2023.
• 11:43
  Riannon: Um, and that actually was really great for us to open up different, um, skill sets and people.
• 11:47
  Riannon: 'cause I think, um, lots of.
• 11:49
  Riannon: the corporate world is very London centric still, sadly.
• 11:52
  Riannon: So that really helped us to, uh, make sure that we have a really talented team, um, that it's split across the uk and then we can meet up quarterly for, for Catchups, and then when there's client things and, and so on.
• 12:04
  Riannon: Um.
• 12:05
  Riannon: So that's definitely been really helpful.
• 12:07
  Riannon: Um, and then in, just in terms of kind of, um, retention and, and employee happiness as well.
• 12:12
  Riannon: So we, um, do like a biannual survey for employees and we always get our employees are happy or more than happy, um, at work, which is always really lovely to hear.
• 12:22
  Riannon: Um, and I think it's that we get lots of comments from employees that it's like I've never been happier at work or things like that, which is always really rewarding, especially for me because.
• 12:31
  Riannon: I was going back to the reason when I started the company is I wanted to work for a company that, but it didn't exist, so it's always really nice to show how we've been able to be that company for, for those people that have been really disheartened by the PR industry.
• 12:45
  Peta: And does that, so you talked about the B Corp kind of easy, like visual accreditation.
• 12:49
  Peta: Like it's almost like that stamp of you're a, you're, you're a good moral, ethical company, which is brilliant.
• 12:55
  Peta: Um, is that some, is that something that comes up a lot in conversations that you have with potential clients?
• 13:02
  Riannon: Hasn't.
• 13:03
  Riannon: Yeah, we, we only got it in March, so it's still quite new to us.
• 13:07
  Riannon: Um, but yeah, it hasn't come up in conversations really.
• 13:09
  Riannon: I think it's still kind of, people are finding out what a B Corp is as well.
• 13:12
  Riannon: I think there's more of an understanding in some industries than other, um.
• 13:17
  Riannon: I guess for us is the main thing is that we were doing all those things already, so it just made sense for us to go through the process.
• 13:22
  Riannon: I know there's been controversy, um, in like B Corp recently.
• 13:25
  Riannon: I know there was a couple of, um, marketing agencies that had accreditation even though they worked for like fossil fuel companies.
• 13:32
  Riannon: They've since had their, um, accreditation removed.
• 13:35
  Riannon: But it was one of those, um.
• 13:37
  Riannon: Processes where I was like, is it worth doing because is it just that anyone could get it?
• 13:42
  Riannon: But actually after going through the process and knowing how rigorous and difficult it was it was such like a difficult process.
• 13:47
  Riannon: Even the way that they weren't the questions, it's like they don't want people to be able to, um, get approved for it.
• 13:52
  Riannon: Um, so it has made me feel more confident that it is.
• 13:56
  Riannon: Something that's really difficult to, to get accreditation for.
• 14:00
  Riannon: Um, but for us as well, I guess it's that thing that you have to be accredited, um, again every three years or it's that thing about working to become a better company and see what else we can do to improve.
• 14:10
  Riannon: Um, sometimes I, I say to people, it's quite difficult for us'cause we've got quite a lot going on at the minute.
• 14:14
  Riannon: So it's like, what's the step further that we can do?
• 14:17
  Riannon: 'cause you have to get a higher score than.
• 14:19
  Riannon: The previous time to be able to, um, get that accreditation again.
• 14:23
  Riannon: So I think in three years time I'll probably be seeing what we can do a little bit more.
• 14:27
  Riannon: Um, but yeah, and it's, it's being in that network as well of like-minded businesses is always really rewarding.
• 14:32
  Riannon: Especially I'm a solo founder, so it's nice to be able to speak to people in that industry and seeing what they're doing and being inspired by what they're doing.
• 14:39
  Riannon: Um, and then also to network for business as well.
• 14:42
  Peta: And how does it work for service-based businesses?
• 14:44
  Peta: Because a lot of the B corp that I see around and about are kind of, they might be product businesses or something like that.
• 14:50
  Peta: So we're talking about supply chains, we're talking about sustainability.
• 14:54
  Peta: Um, in that respect, how does it work for a more service-based business to become a B Corp?
• 14:59
  Riannon: Yeah, it's still, you have to go through that big process.
• 15:01
  Riannon: There's like a big.
• 15:02
  Riannon: Humongous, um, big survey that you have to go through.
• 15:06
  Riannon: And they still talk about your supply chain, um, people and governance as well.
• 15:10
  Riannon: How you run your business.
• 15:11
  Riannon: Um, the type of clients you work for is huge.
• 15:15
  Riannon: All the different sections you have to go for.
• 15:16
  Riannon: I think it would be definitely more difficult if you have got a product based business.
• 15:20
  Riannon: 'cause there's a longer supply chain obviously.
• 15:22
  Riannon: Um, but then you basically, you score points is how you get the accreditation.
• 15:27
  Riannon: You have to score, score over 80, so.
• 15:29
  Riannon: Um, it's a little bit trickier I guess in the terms of when you're a service-based business'cause there's not as many things as relevant for you.
• 15:35
  Riannon: Um, and for us as a smaller business.
• 15:37
  Riannon: So it is, lots of the questions were like just not relevant for us.
• 15:40
  Riannon: It was, I think there was something about how do you, um, recycle your toxic waste And we are like a remote business.
• 15:46
  Riannon: We don't have any toxic waste.
• 15:48
  Riannon: We try and keep everything paper free as well.
• 15:51
  Riannon: So not even from that perspective.
• 15:53
  Riannon: Um.
• 15:54
  Riannon: And I was going for it with this consultant, that's one of the processes.
• 15:57
  Riannon: And I was like, what type of business do you pick me on?
• 15:59
  Riannon: Like, we're not gonna have any toxic waste, but that you still have to go for it and answer these questions.
• 16:03
  Riannon: So it does make it trickier because there is less things that would be relevant for the business.
• 16:08
  Riannon: Um, and it's just confusing as well.
• 16:09
  Riannon: I have fed back to them as I think that I, um, found it confusing.
• 16:13
  Riannon: And if you've got maybe like a disability or an accessibility need, then how do you expect someone else to not get confused by the process?
• 16:20
  Riannon: I think it needs to be a more accessible, um, process for everyone.
• 16:23
  Peta: Yeah, no, that's fair.
• 16:25
  Peta: At the end does sound very, very complicated.
• 16:26
  Peta: Well done for getting through it.
• 16:28
  Peta: Yeah, fingers crossed for three years time.
• 16:30
  Peta: Um, so let's talk about your clients for, for a bit.
• 16:34
  Peta: So obviously, so B Corp's only been for, for about a year, um, but you.
• 16:39
  Peta: Have been very intentional like you said, in the way that you, um, that the things that you do, the way that you treat your staff, the, and the impact that that has on availability and working hours and things like that.
• 16:51
  Peta: How has that been part of the conversation with clients or potential clients?
• 16:56
  Peta: Like with you're doing pitches or something like that?
• 16:59
  Riannon: Yeah, definitely.
• 17:00
  Riannon: I think we're quite lucky in terms of our clients are in that space as well, so they quite like that we are doing these things that are caring for our employees and everything.
• 17:08
  Riannon: I think we're, if we were in a different space.
• 17:11
  Riannon: It probably would be an issue.
• 17:12
  Riannon: I know one, um, one of my friends in the industry, she has had to work Christmas Day because she works for a big supermarket brand and it, it's, there's no day that you're not working, um, which you probably don't need to be working.
• 17:24
  Riannon: No.
• 17:24
  Riannon: Journalists are gonna be like opening the emails on that day really.
• 17:28
  Riannon: And there's not gonna be many coverage opportunities.
• 17:30
  Riannon: Um, but for us, for example, one thing we do is a Christmas shutdown.
• 17:34
  Riannon: So we close for about a week depending on.
• 17:37
  Riannon: When it falls a week and a half over Christmas and it wouldn't be possible if we were working for traditional clients like big supermarkets or something like that.
• 17:45
  Riannon: And it would be that thing that if something came up, we'd jump on it, obviously.
• 17:49
  Riannon: Um, but'cause our clients are in similar industries to us and have similar perspectives, it always works really well and it's, it's received really well in pictures.
• 17:57
  Riannon: And I think then it goes back to as well, what I was saying about how.
• 18:00
  Riannon: Stuff does come up.
• 18:01
  Riannon: Unfortunately, it's always kind of, nothing ever comes up on like a Wednesday at 1:00 PM It's always like on a Friday or a Saturday or something like that, and we, we just jump on it.
• 18:10
  Riannon: We had one of our, um, clients, um, had their products used by Victoria Beckham last year.
• 18:17
  Riannon: It was on a Friday evening of course, so then we had to jump on it.
• 18:20
  Riannon: Um, and then on the Saturday as well, do some pitching and get to those weekend editors.
• 18:24
  Riannon: Um, but then again, our, our employees can claw back that time.
• 18:28
  Riannon: Um, so it does happen and I think you know that when you work in the PR industry as well, that there's gonna be occasional moments that you might have to work some funny hours.
• 18:35
  Riannon: Um, but then you do get that time back.
• 18:37
  Riannon: So I think we always make it clear that we have these positive policies.
• 18:40
  Riannon: Oh.
• 18:41
  Riannon: Also that's flexibility.
• 18:42
  Riannon: What you get with a PR agency is that always on reactive, um, side of things and that press office management.
• 18:47
  Riannon: So it's just finding that balance, which is always, um, really well perceived.
• 18:51
  Peta: Yeah, no, I think that's the, that's the difference, isn't it?
• 18:53
  Peta: Because I think it can be really easy, um, when you're thinking about.
• 18:58
  Peta: What is difficult about an industry that you want to fix, kind of in, in eCommerce, all of it, but actually by the, by the very nature of what you do and, and the like, the problems that you have to solve or the opportunities that you have to jump on.
• 19:12
  Peta: There's no getting around that longer availability that, that kind of spur like last minute thing that has to happen, but that doesn't mean.
• 19:22
  Peta: That you can't organize the rest of your business to maybe mitigate that slightly and also look after the mental health of your employees in other ways.
• 19:32
  Riannon: Yeah, definitely.
• 19:34
  Peta: Yeah, no, that's really interesting.
• 19:35
  Peta: So tell me a little bit about the type of clients that you like working with at Lemon.
• 19:41
  Riannon: Yeah, we, we work.
• 19:42
  Riannon: It is always really interesting, I think from the messaging perspective, which obviously is your, your
• 19:46
  Peta: my thing.
• 19:49
  Riannon: Um, but like we, I think when we started it was like purpose led, um, or feel good has been a big phrase for us.
• 19:55
  Riannon: So something recently I've been talking a lot more about, especially kind of when I'm events, is we help companies doing good things get into the press because.
• 20:02
  Riannon: We work with all sorts of companies.
• 20:04
  Riannon: Um, and the main thing for us is if they have a, a.
• 20:07
  Riannon: Strong kind of thing that they're doing that's positive at the heart of it.
• 20:11
  Riannon: Um, so it can be from, we have one of our clients is Rosetta Stone, so the language learning app or two.
• 20:17
  Riannon: We have another client that is a, um, neuromodulation device.
• 20:20
  Riannon: So you attach it to your ear and it stimulates your vagus nerve, which helps with things like depression, anxiety, sleep, um, like general health and wellness.
• 20:28
  Riannon: Um, so it's from that more.
• 20:30
  Riannon: Really obvious perspective about why something is purpose led to kind of, obviously Lang languages is good for you.
• 20:36
  Riannon: So we have different perspectives.
• 20:37
  Riannon: So yeah, I find it always really interesting of what's the best messaging, and I think it's kind of depends on the audience I guess you're with, but trying to make it, um, as clear as possible is always, always tricky.
• 20:48
  Peta: I think you're right.
• 20:49
  Peta: And, and sometimes you, sometimes a particular term gets used so much and attached to so many different things that it sort, it kind of loses its meaning.
• 20:58
  Peta: So I, I worry that purpose driven is getting there.
• 21:03
  Riannon: Yeah, and I think people don't really understand what purpose led means sometimes, which I, I do understand.
• 21:08
  Riannon: I think I'm in the industry, so it's so like in my head now, if you're an outsider, you're like, what is purpose?
• 21:14
  Riannon: 'cause it could be a lot of different things.
• 21:17
  Riannon: Um, and there's lots of people that shout about it, as you said.
• 21:20
  Riannon: So it's tricky to make sure you have that.
• 21:22
  Riannon: Um, good word.
• 21:23
  Riannon: So I think going back to basics like have been doing a bit recently and just saying companies doing good things.
• 21:27
  Riannon: 'cause everyone knows what that means for us.
• 21:29
  Riannon: It's like if people are helping people or planet as well, really, or doing something in a positive way.
• 21:34
  Riannon: Um, and, and I think it, it, we get go kind of disheartened because we see so many companies like impacting the planet or like not treating people properly.
• 21:42
  Riannon: Um, actually there are so many good companies doing good things, so it's really nice to support them.
• 21:46
  Riannon: I haven't always worked on, uh.
• 21:49
  Riannon: Positive companies are one client I used to have was a payday, um, loans.
• 21:54
  Riannon: It's one of those industries where you're just shucked on.
• 21:57
  Riannon: Um, and yeah, it's always kind of not the nicest'cause you hear about some of the, the stories that aren't so nice as well behind the scenes and you have to kind of the, um, crisis management when anything comes in like that.
• 22:08
  Riannon: So, um, one of the things that I love obviously is helping employees have a better work life balance, but also being able to grow those companies.
• 22:16
  Riannon: Really need it.
• 22:17
  Riannon: And when you see those results, when you get clients into the press and then they say like, they doubled their revenue or something like that because of a press, um, pieces come out, it's always rewarding'cause it's, you know, that what they're doing is good and it's helping so many people.
• 22:30
  Peta: Yeah.
• 22:30
  Peta: No, that's lovely.
• 22:31
  Peta: So speaking of, so talking about PR and companies that do good, I often find, because I work with, with similar types of companies for going there, but like people who have, who there's, there's a problem that they wanna solve for people because of an experience that they've had or they are, they're trying to solve a problem with the planet.
• 22:50
  Peta: All those kind of things.
• 22:51
  Peta: I often find that it is difficult to get them to shout as much about what they do as you would like them to because um, I find that sometimes people who wanna do good are focusing on the doing good and not so much on the big themselves up.
• 23:11
  Peta: Um, is that something that you've come across with, with clients that you've worked with in that space?
• 23:16
  Riannon: Yeah, definitely.
• 23:17
  Riannon: I think it's definitely a process when you start working with a client and it's like an educational piece.
• 23:22
  Riannon: Um, for us it's always easier when someone has had like a marketing or a PR background.
• 23:27
  Riannon: Um, like if they either, if they have like internal, like.
• 23:30
  Riannon: Marketing team or if they have like a founders that have come from that background.
• 23:34
  Riannon: But we also do work with lots of founder led businesses.
• 23:37
  Riannon: So it's quite an educational process.
• 23:40
  Riannon: Um, and even when like a marketing team does get hired eventually, sometimes it's still the founder that is kind of that.
• 23:46
  Riannon: Difficult of kind of getting that story out there.
• 23:48
  Riannon: Or like for us, a big asset for us is the founders themself, having them front and center in the press.
• 23:53
  Riannon: We've had founders who don't want to be in the press as well.
• 23:56
  Riannon: Like they just wanna be doing good.
• 23:57
  Riannon: They don't wanna be the face of it.
• 23:59
  Riannon: You are your biggest asset.
• 24:00
  Riannon: So it's, it's that convincing and showing people like why it's good to be in the press.
• 24:05
  Riannon: Um,'cause people buy from people I always say.
• 24:07
  Riannon: So, um, it's really important to be able to show that, that face that, um.
• 24:11
  Riannon: It's one of those slow hand holding processes where you try and teach them about why it's important.
• 24:17
  Riannon: And it is a gradual process because obviously there's a certain amount of trust when you win a pitch and you win the client, but is over the first couple of months is when you prove yourself and they kind of, they grow to trust you.
• 24:28
  Riannon: And when they know that, um, they've trusted us in this press release that we've recommended has got the press coverage, then there's that slow process of understanding.
• 24:34
  Riannon: If they need to be talking more about the stuff that they're doing, that's good because you can be doing all these amazing stuff.
• 24:39
  Riannon: If no one hears about it, it might be doing good for the business, but the business isn't gonna get any customers throughout it, and you might not be able to sustain the business.
• 24:46
  Riannon: So then in the end, it's not gonna be good for anyone.
• 24:49
  Peta: Yeah, I talk about that a lot in terms of, of sales and marketing.
• 24:53
  Peta: Like if you, yeah, you could, you could be doing the best thing in the world.
• 24:56
  Peta: You could be helping save people's lives, but if you're not willing to shout about it, then you won't save those people's lives.
• 25:02
  Peta: So yeah, it's almost like you might as well not bother.
• 25:04
  Peta: It's very frustrating sometimes.
• 25:06
  Riannon: Yeah, definitely.
• 25:07
  Riannon: And I, I've seen a few companies recently of kind of those companies doing really great things that have closed down.
• 25:12
  Riannon: Um, and you do wonder if, if they'd not been shouting about that stuff as much as we would've liked them to, as, as marketers.
• 25:19
  Peta: Yes.
• 25:19
  Peta: Yeah.
• 25:20
  Peta: So, because a lot of those kind of people who are doing good things, listen to this podcast.
• 25:25
  Peta: Um, what would be your recommendations for them from like a PR expert standpoint?
• 25:31
  Peta: Um, if they are.
• 25:33
  Peta: maybe they've just been kind of doing all the marketing themselves.
• 25:36
  Peta: Um, they've not really thought about pr, or they're a bit further down the line and they're, they're looking for some good PR ideas.
• 25:44
  Peta: What would you be telling them to do?
• 25:47
  Riannon: First, first things first.
• 25:49
  Riannon: Wherever you are, even if you've got a PR agency, I'd say that you should be reading the news yourself, um, and being reading those publications or consuming that media that you want to be in, because then you know what they're talking about.
• 26:00
  Riannon: You know, a kind of a.
• 26:01
  Riannon: The companies are appearing in the press because I think people get really confused with PR that they think it's just advertisement and you just say, here's a story, publish it.
• 26:10
  Riannon: But actually PR is a lot more about fitting into the news agenda and seeing how you can get your story into what people are already speaking about.
• 26:17
  Riannon: If it might be the type of thing that you'd.
• 26:19
  Riannon: Interested in speaking about someone with someone at the pub or a cafe, then it's probably the type of thing that journalists might be interested in.
• 26:26
  Riannon: So that's definitely tip number one is, um, consume the media yourself.
• 26:29
  Riannon: Um, and then tip number two, especially for purpose led businesses, is kind of what is the message behind it?
• 26:34
  Riannon: What is the thing that you are doing that's good?
• 26:37
  Riannon: Um, and then look at, competitors are talking about this in the media.
• 26:40
  Riannon: Um, kind of look at how that can fit into the news agenda as well.
• 26:43
  Riannon: So if you are, um, a copywriter working with purpose-led businesses, how can that fit into, um, the news agenda?
• 26:50
  Riannon: What are people speaking about?
• 26:51
  Riannon: I mean, tariffs is a huge thing at the minute.
• 26:53
  Riannon: So for any business like ours, we can talk about how that's impacting our business.
• 26:57
  Riannon: Are we losing clients because it are people kind of being more strained as businesses.
• 27:01
  Riannon: So it fitting into those kind of topics that people are already talking about, looking at, um, tools such as like Google Trends, TikTok trends, Pinterest trends to see if you can fit into that cultural dates as well.
• 27:12
  Riannon: Um, looking at the emotional story as well behind it.
• 27:15
  Riannon: Um, and kind of that comes onto as well.
• 27:17
  Riannon: Who are your experts and who are your sources?
• 27:19
  Riannon: Ideally, the founder will be happy to be in the press, but maybe you've got other people in the team that can talk about different expertise and and backgrounds.
• 27:26
  Riannon: 'cause journalists love having that to tap into, especially if you've got, if you've got a nice emotive story behind it.
• 27:32
  Riannon: Um, for us, we always say the easiest thing to pitch journalists and to get into the press is that.
• 27:36
  Riannon: Um, found a story if it's a bit of an emotive side to it, and also that kind of, if it's product, those product reviews and roundups,'cause journalists are always working on those two things.
• 27:45
  Riannon: So it's much easier than some of the other things you can think of.
• 27:49
  Riannon: Those bigger campaigns, maybe later down the line.
• 27:50
  Riannon: But when you're, if you're newer to it, think about those easy wins.
• 27:55
  Riannon: Um, and then the reactive side of it as well is.
• 27:57
  Riannon: There's your plan pieces of press that you do, but then there's also that reactive side of it.
• 28:01
  Riannon: So it's, um, if something comes up, like I met Gala the other day and then Rihanna announced she's pregnant.
• 28:06
  Riannon: If you're a family brand or a a baby brand, you can jump on that and do some story related to it.
• 28:11
  Riannon: Um, so that's really big as well.
• 28:14
  Peta: Excellent tips.
• 28:15
  Peta: Those are brilliant.
• 28:16
  Peta: Thanks very much.
• 28:17
  Peta: Um, I'm gonna go away and think about lots of PR things
• 28:20
  Riannon: Pitch some tariff
• 28:21
  Peta: Yes.
• 28:21
  Peta: Some Tara stuff, probably not about Rihanna's pregnancy.
• 28:24
  Peta: Um,
• 28:26
  Riannon: You know what you, sometimes you'd be surprised there's probably a, some sort of angle you can pitch in.
• 28:31
  Riannon: Sometimes it is that thing about thinking about that unique angle that people might not expect.
• 28:34
  Riannon: 'cause every brand is probably gonna be jumping on it.
• 28:37
  Riannon: So you need to try and have a unique angle on it.
• 28:40
  Peta: No, that is very true.
• 28:40
  Peta: That is great advice.
• 28:42
  Riannon: Let's see if you can think of anything.
• 28:44
  Peta: And if people, um, have listened to all that and gone, uh, yeah, I'd love to do all that, but I do not have the time or the capacity, and they want to come and find you and Lemon, how can they do that?
• 28:55
  Riannon: Yeah, definitely.
• 28:56
  Riannon: I'm, I would always even say if people don't have the budget right now to work with a PR agency, easiest thing you can do is at least read the news and kind of know and start thinking about it from a reactive perspective.
• 29:06
  Riannon: Um.
• 29:07
  Riannon: 'cause PR is time consuming.
• 29:08
  Riannon: That's the tricky thing, why people can do it themselves as well as that skill.
• 29:11
  Riannon: Um, but yet people can come and find us.
• 29:13
  Riannon: Um, lemon is our, our name and our, we have our website and I'm also, I'm quite active on LinkedIn.
• 29:19
  Riannon: Um, lemon is spelled phonetically, which always confuses people.
• 29:22
  Riannon: That's kind of a another story.
• 29:24
  Riannon: We, six months in a company with a similar name, try to sue.
• 29:27
  Riannon: So we had to rebrand and rename the company.
• 29:29
  Riannon: So that's why Lemon is spelled LEM dash UHN.
• 29:34
  Riannon: Um, and we copyrighted it so we wouldn't go through that fun struggle again.
• 29:38
  Peta: Well done.
• 29:38
  Peta: That's cool now.
• 29:39
  Peta: And, um, I will put all of that in the show notes so nobody will have to spell anything funky.
• 29:44
  Peta: That's, yeah, we'll be good.
• 29:46
  Peta: Cool.
• 29:47
  Peta: Um, yeah, no, that is so helpful, Rhiannon.
• 29:49
  Peta: Thank you so much for giving us an insight into Yeah.
• 29:51
  Peta: What it's like to run a Yeah.
• 29:54
  Peta: Run a business that looks after its employees and an industry that's, that doesn't always.
• 30:01
  Riannon: It is been so nice to speak with you.