Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How to Use Relocation to Build Inclusive Teams with Settly CEO Marieke van Iperen | Ep. 127

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How to Use Relocation to Build Inclusive Teams with Settly CEO Marieke van Iperen | Ep. 127 · Women Disrupting Tech

• 0:10
  Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
• 0:13
  My name is dear Kanupkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
• 0:16
  who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
• 0:20
  each other. Join me on a journey into the
• 0:23
  world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
• 0:28
  to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
• 0:32
  In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
• 0:36
  Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
• 0:45
  Disrupting Tech and thank you for tuning in to Episode 127.
• 0:50
  When you're building a global company, you need global talent.
• 0:54
  I mean, how else are you going to create products and services
• 0:58
  that your audience around the world can relate to?
• 1:03
  But how do you make sure that these talents feel at home when
• 1:06
  they need to relocate to another country?
• 1:10
  In this episode of Women Disrupting Tech, you'll hear the
• 1:12
  answer to that question from Marika von Ipern.
• 1:16
  Marika grew up in a hippie community where belonging and
• 1:20
  giving back for part of daily life.
• 1:22
  And years later, she discovered that those personal values and
• 1:26
  community focused principles can be integrated into a fast
• 1:30
  growing company, balancing growth with impact.
• 1:35
  In this episode, Marik and I talk about what it takes to make
• 1:38
  people feel at home when they move to a new country, and why
• 1:42
  relocation, when done right, can become a powerful tool for
• 1:47
  building inclusive teams. You also hear her stories about
• 1:51
  bootstrapping, scaling, and learning to lead with intention.
• 1:56
  And we'll explore how challenges around immigration and housing
• 2:00
  can be turned into opportunities.
• 2:03
  So when you're ready to listen and learn how to use relocation
• 2:07
  to build inclusive teams, please welcome to Women Disrupting
• 2:11
  tech, Marika von Epern. Before we start, I want to
• 2:16
  highlight an event that embrace health organizers on the 3rd of
• 2:20
  December 2025 at Equals in Amsterdam entitled Understanding
• 2:25
  Women's Health. As you know, I'm really
• 2:28
  passionate about the need for everyone to learn more about how
• 2:31
  Women's Health works and how it is different from the health of
• 2:35
  men. Visiting this event will help
• 2:38
  both men and women better understand Women's Health and
• 2:43
  how it impacts energy, mood, productivity, and overall
• 2:46
  well-being at every stage of life.
• 2:49
  For more information and for tickets, please check out the
• 2:53
  link in the show notes or search for understanding Women's Health
• 2:57
  in the Luma app. So Marika von Epperton, welcome
• 3:03
  to women disrupting tech. Good to have you.
• 3:06
  My first question is always how did you get into your current
• 3:09
  job or current position? In your case, that's CEO of
• 3:12
  Setly. Nice.
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  Well great first question. It was definitely never on my
• 3:17
  list to become ACEO or founder. I simply wanted to travel the
• 3:22
  world, learn as much as I I could.
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  I ended up working in HR recruitment, living across the
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  globe and literally feeling the pain myself of people moving and
• 3:33
  not being able to to solve that. And an experience that I would
• 3:39
  really stand by and, and, and help people feel at home.
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  So at some stage after I became a mum and, and life changed
• 3:46
  dramatically and purpose became a little bit more important, I
• 3:49
  was like, why not? Maybe there's a niche here,
• 3:52
  maybe I can start my own company.
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  And that became sadly Fast forward five years later and
• 3:59
  that led to me now being the CEO and and Co founder.
• 4:02
  Yeah, so I read something interesting in your bio that you
• 4:07
  were raised as a hippie, you grew up as a hippie.
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  How did that does that help you at all or does that actually do
• 4:15
  the opposite? So does it block you from doing
• 4:18
  things? Absolutely.
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  I was brought brought up in a in a community.
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  My parents were hippies and they travelled a lot and and we
• 4:25
  worked together. So I think the importance of
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  shared values, giving back and always prioritizing the common
• 4:34
  benefit of the personal interest and experience over money.
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  So I think it taught me a lot about life and, and what I stand
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  for. So it also showed a bit of a
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  difference going into the startup world because that was
• 4:47
  very different and with its goals and its, its setup.
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  But I think we've sadly, ultimately, I, I was able to, to
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  combine the best of both worlds because the values the community
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  are still very much central in, in what we do and the giving
• 5:03
  back peace. But yes, you can also achieve
• 5:05
  growth and financial gain. So it was, yeah, it was
• 5:10
  interesting to see those worlds come together.
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  Yeah, because how, how did you marry the two?
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  Because the start up world is, is like really more almost
• 5:23
  performance oriented and also a bit about, well, not a bit,
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  quite a bit about money. Yeah, that's, it's an
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  interesting one. We started bootstraps I think
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  for that reason as well, because I really wanted to stay close to
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  the values what we stand for. And our mission was to create a
• 5:43
  world where everyone would feel at home.
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  All of a sudden we were growing 200, three, 100% and we were on
• 5:49
  the list of fastest growing company in the world, startup in
• 5:52
  the world. And that's when we start getting
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  a lot of interest from VCs. And up until that moment, I'd,
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  I'd never considered it, to be honest.
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  But then when we started having some of those conversations and
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  learned that there's also impact VCs and you learn about, hey,
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  you can achieve impact at global scale if you link it to the ESG
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  goals. And you can get the best of both
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  worlds because you can grow, there will be more revenue and
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  you can make more impact. So for me that that felt like a
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  a good partnership and a good trajectory.
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  OK. So it was essentially about
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  finding the right investors, more of an impact mindset and
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  then money comes sort of along, but it's not the primary
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  purpose. And it still isn't, I shouldn't
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  say it is too, too loud probably for the investors, but it's not
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  for me. But for me it is the impact that
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  we can make at skill and, and, and money helps with that,
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  right? So getting the money in order to
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  scale to more countries and also to grow together.
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  Yeah. You also lived and worked
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  outside the Netherlands. And you said in the beginning
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  something along the lines of, OK, that I saw how that impacted
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  me, probably you, but also other people around you in terms of
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  feeling at home and becoming part of that society.
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  How did that did that weave into?
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  Certainly. Yeah, I think during my time
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  abroad which which initially started as one year abroad and
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  ended up being 15 years. Oh, OK.
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  Literally living everywhere from Greece to Latin America was in
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  China, Australia, Middle East. So incredible experiences to
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  develop and to learn and to really understand how different
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  cultures work as well. So if there would be one thing,
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  well, there's a few things probably, but never assume.
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  So always remain curious to other cultures and to other
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  people as well asking the why question.
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  So that's very much ingrained as well in in our culture.
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  I think the other thing that I learned a lot about is the the
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  impact again from, from community.
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  So if you can feel comfortable with yourself, you can feel at
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  home anywhere. And that could be in any
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  country. But a lot of that does link back
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  to community and and finding your tribe and finding locals
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  that you have a connection with and and can give a sense of
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  purpose. Yeah, So what?
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  What do companies get wrong? Because you worked in Ahr for
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  quite a while, I think. What do companies get wrong when
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  they hire, let's say, people from outside to country?
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  Most companies just want to get the people in as fast as they
• 9:01
  possibly can, so they focus on getting the job done.
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  So what skills are going to be needed and don't really focus on
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  what does it take for someone to move to a new country, to a new
• 9:11
  culture? Will they be able to to find a
• 9:14
  sense of belonging away from their homeland?
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  So think about competencies like cultural intelligence or
• 9:19
  resilience of awareness, resourcefulness.
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  Those are really critical pieces If you're moving someone to
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  another country alongside to being an amazing coder or still
• 9:32
  said is that the the individual will bring.
• 9:34
  OK, but does that go wrong in the selection process then?
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  Or is it more in, let's say if someone is already on board that
• 9:46
  he or she is just let go? Like, OK, you're on, do your
• 9:50
  thing, have fun. See ya.
• 9:53
  Think a bit above. Depends really on the type of
• 9:55
  company. Still, one 1/3 of moves goes
• 10:00
  wrong or someone will leave within the first six months.
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  So then you need to work your way back.
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  A, Did I I select the right person?
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  Did I look for those signals already?
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  Because a lot of times they go home or they go to another
• 10:12
  country or B, did I not have the right set up to give them a
• 10:18
  sense of belonging within our company, within our culture?
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  Do we have a body system? Do we have someone actually
• 10:24
  checking in with them beyond just their job scope, making
• 10:28
  sure that they are lending well? So, So what does that take?
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  Let's say I'm a manager at A at a company and I have an expert
• 10:37
  on my team or a multiple. Do you actually recommend having
• 10:41
  multiple experts? Because the the reason I asked,
• 10:45
  just for context, is that when I started interviewing for this
• 10:51
  podcast, some one of the guests told me you never hire one woman
• 10:56
  on the team. To change culture, you need to
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  hire like multiple women because then they also have a sort of
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  body they can act as, as each other's body and they will
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  change the, the culture, the team culture for you.
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  Does that apply also to experts? Yeah, I, I, I, I think so.
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  It doesn't have to be an expert. It could also be a Dutch person
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  who's lived overseas who understands the experience.
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  But I think it it starts with having people on your team who
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  value inclusion, who understand diversity and doesn't have to
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  have the title expect. But in general, having multiple
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  people with a diverse background together will definitely help
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  elevate and and drive change faster and get to results in a
• 11:47
  in a faster way. Yeah, I want to just go back in
• 11:53
  time a bit. You started set the about a
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  year, I think before COVID hit. What what happened and how did
• 12:02
  you pull through? Because I think all of a sudden
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  everyone was hiring people from abroad, but they had to stay,
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  stay at home. So the whole let's say the
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  integration part, physical integration part didn't need to
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  happen. How was that for you?
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  How did you manage to get through that that?
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  Was a tough one. I think you start a business
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  with the idea that the world is opening up and then a few months
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  in the world just goes in absolute lockdown.
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  We literally just secured our first free customers at that
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  stage, even their people around. So we had them in Spain and
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  Italy and Asia all over the world and they couldn't move.
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  They had already resigned from the previous employer.
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  There was so much insecurity about could they still move?
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  When would they be able to move? When would they be able to
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  start? But also for us as a business,
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  right, we just started. We had hired our first team.
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  We had five or six people. How are we going to pay them?
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  So how do we going to get through this?
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  Yeah, a very grateful that we live in the Netherlands.
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  So there was a system rolled out quite quickly to help start-ups
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  such as ourselves that we can continue having, having our team
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  on our, on our payroll and really use that time to better
• 13:22
  understand the client's needs. And because we had all these
• 13:25
  people across the, the globe, we started talking to them about
• 13:30
  their, their pain points and, and what's really important.
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  And I think that really LED us to find out, yes, you can get
• 13:37
  everything right in relocation. You can get the house, you can
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  get the pyramids, but ultimately, if you don't have
• 13:44
  connection and you'll feel lonely, it's, it's not going to
• 13:47
  be successful. So I think in hindsight, it was
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  a blessing in disguise for us because prior to us coming in,
• 13:55
  we are a digital relocation. Everyone was why do you need a
• 13:57
  digital relocation? I think within COVID people
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  like, ah, that's quite handy. Yeah.
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  The relocation because they can go to all of these offices and
• 14:07
  also it it really helped us to start creating events and
• 14:11
  communities. So on our platform at that
• 14:13
  stage, we would host events about the Dutch culture in a fun
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  way, like a pub quiz or so for everyone being stranded across
• 14:22
  the globe. And there was actually more to
• 14:24
  keep us busy at that stage as well.
• 14:26
  But it was such a success and people failed it so much that it
• 14:30
  actually became a, a feature on the platform that we still have.
• 14:34
  And that's that's used a lot for people moving to a new place.
• 14:38
  Yeah, that's cool. But it's also good that you
• 14:41
  managed to get through. You've also scaled to a couple
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  of, well, a couple of a lot of other countries.
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  Meanwhile, what is the biggest challenge you ran into doing
• 14:54
  that? Getting people or.
• 14:59
  That's an interesting one. It's one I I didn't think about
• 15:01
  before. It's geopolitics.
• 15:04
  When we started our our company, I think I was aware of the focus
• 15:10
  on immigration. And.
• 15:13
  Immigrants and experts and how rapidly that changes as well the
• 15:18
  sentiment in certain countries around that.
• 15:22
  So I think that was something initially I didn't, I didn't
• 15:26
  think through. We had one go to market plan
• 15:30
  that we would then do in different countries.
• 15:33
  But I think gradually we figured out that Spain has a very
• 15:36
  different situation than that Germany is and also that the
• 15:39
  legislation in those countries is very different as well.
• 15:44
  So even within the country, sometimes there's regional
• 15:47
  differences in how you need to approach immigration and
• 15:51
  relocation. So I think that was a yeah, a
• 15:55
  major learning and, and also hurdle and, and how do you then
• 15:58
  make that scalable? So I think definitely with that
• 16:03
  came team and people because you can scale so much with tech, but
• 16:07
  there is an element of people wanting to help people and
• 16:11
  having a critical Fender network in all of these markets and
• 16:14
  countries that we go into. Yeah.
• 16:16
  Do you have local vendors in every single marketing?
• 16:20
  Yeah. And then that, that's also to
• 16:23
  accommodate, let's say for the for the differences in culture
• 16:29
  and that they can actually lend properly locally, let's say.
• 16:33
  And and to your point, I think Germany is a big country.
• 16:38
  So there's big differences at least in culture between East
• 16:41
  and West. I've experienced that myself.
• 16:44
  So yeah. Shall we switch to what Setly
• 16:50
  brings? So maybe we can start by?
• 16:55
  You can start by describing what set lead actually does.
• 16:59
  Set Lead is a digital relocation platform helping companies move
• 17:05
  their people across the globe and making them feel at home.
• 17:09
  So we've built 2 platforms, 1 is for the employer.
• 17:12
  So we work for a lot of start-ups, scale UPS, but now
• 17:15
  also multinationals. Think in the line of of Binder,
• 17:19
  Presonio, Muse, Data Sniper. They have a platform then that
• 17:26
  integrates with their HRIS. So they can say for every
• 17:30
  international hire that we have, we want to give this particular
• 17:34
  package that comes with either a lump sum or housing or shipment
• 17:41
  of goods or immigration. So the company determines what
• 17:45
  the package will be and then employee gets an app and a
• 17:50
  personalized service that takes them through a checklist step by
• 17:53
  step for all the services that are provided by their by their
• 17:58
  company. And then on top of that, they
• 18:00
  get access to community events, lots of information as well
• 18:06
  about culture, just to make it a fun experience to land well in a
• 18:09
  new country. OK.
• 18:11
  But do you then or does Setley then take care of of let's say
• 18:17
  the the lending part of it or is that still the employer?
• 18:22
  It's always a partnership. So I think This is why we love
• 18:25
  to work with employees that take this job very serious.
• 18:28
  We can do an amazing job having them land in the Netherlands,
• 18:31
  but if the company is not focused on employee experience
• 18:34
  and learning them well in the company, then you have a have an
• 18:36
  issue, right? So to go hand in hand and having
• 18:40
  an aligned vision on employee experience and we look after the
• 18:44
  the country elements, everything that's needed for instance in in
• 18:48
  the Netherlands and the company looks after everything that's
• 18:50
  needed to land well within that culture and that.
• 18:53
  Yeah. So in the Netherlands we had, or
• 18:58
  we just had a pretty far right government with pretty, let's
• 19:03
  say relatively, at least for the Netherlands, extreme views on,
• 19:07
  on immigration. How did, how did that impact
• 19:11
  your business? Because if it's, I can imagine
• 19:14
  that if it's outside the, if it's another country, you, you
• 19:19
  sort of have in the back of your mind like, OK, that's another
• 19:22
  culture, but now it was coming here.
• 19:25
  I'll be really honest, I was in shock.
• 19:28
  And it starts with our own team. We, we have 20 nationalities in
• 19:33
  our own team. So waking up that morning and
• 19:36
  speaking to my own team about what does that mean?
• 19:40
  And, and seeing the questions and seeing the fear in their
• 19:42
  eyes, what does that mean about me?
• 19:43
  What does that mean? Am I no longer want it?
• 19:46
  It's a place I want to be living in.
• 19:48
  So yeah, it really it, it, it hit home initially and it, it
• 19:54
  also created some doubts like are we, are we in the right
• 19:58
  place? Are we in the right country?
• 19:59
  What does that mean? There was a lot of unknowns and,
• 20:03
  and insecurity in the beginning. And, and you also saw that
• 20:07
  within companies focusing on, hey, we just want Dutch people
• 20:11
  first before we go to internationals.
• 20:14
  And I think quite quickly they noticed we simply didn't have
• 20:18
  enough local talent to fill the roles.
• 20:20
  So the business for that reason wasn't, wasn't impacted much.
• 20:25
  But of course it is it is a narrative that is impacted as
• 20:30
  well. And our job became a lot more
• 20:35
  policy and comps driven and I ended up in conversations that I
• 20:40
  I never government affairs that I was never close to before.
• 20:45
  But yeah, we're also really interesting to to understand
• 20:48
  that the sentiment of, of why we are where we are.
• 20:53
  I think it, it also, yeah, creates a lot of opportunities
• 20:57
  for us to, to enter those conversations and to, to get
• 21:02
  closer to, to one another and, and now particularly at the EU
• 21:05
  level, collaborate. So how did you manage that team
• 21:10
  wise? Because I can understand that
• 21:12
  all of a sudden you have this government and then everyone is
• 21:18
  feeling like, OK, do I still belong here?
• 21:21
  How do you deal with that on a personal, on a personal and team
• 21:24
  level inside the inside the company?
• 21:27
  Different for everyone and this is where you see that, that
• 21:31
  people coming from Latin America respond very differently than
• 21:34
  those from the UK or from Asia. Some you open it up and you have
• 21:39
  conversation within a group and some it is more one-on-one.
• 21:44
  It is, it is really making sure we have the time to, to have
• 21:48
  those discussions and, and to also focus on, hey, what can we
• 21:51
  now do as a team to turn this around and, and to make the
• 21:56
  impact. Because if we're feeling a
• 21:58
  sentiment in our own team, does that mean for all of the users
• 22:02
  on our platform, for all the internationals working at the
• 22:04
  companies, for all of the, the clients we're working with?
• 22:08
  So I think quite quickly we, yeah, we also proactively
• 22:12
  reached out to all of our clients just to better
• 22:14
  understand, hey, what does this mean for you?
• 22:17
  What is the sentiment? How can we help in any way,
• 22:21
  shape or form? Which I think it, it helped a
• 22:25
  lot. Also again, through, through
• 22:27
  events and, and getting together and seeing, hey, we're not the
• 22:31
  only ones that are thinking like this.
• 22:33
  Actually, there's a big portion of the Dutch people that do not
• 22:37
  fully stand by what's happening and, and how can we change that
• 22:41
  narrative and make sure that they also hear those voices and
• 22:47
  that they start feeling at home again and getting that sense of
• 22:50
  belonging within the team first. But then beyond that and how can
• 22:54
  they also help share that narrative with all of our
• 22:57
  customers? So one one thing I picked up on
• 23:01
  in our conversation so far is that every time there's sort of
• 23:05
  a, let's say, negative event, you manage to take that as an
• 23:12
  opportunity. Do you know where that comes
• 23:16
  from? Is is that something that you
• 23:19
  learned or? It's a good one.
• 23:21
  I hadn't thought about it, but I do.
• 23:23
  I do. I think being being brought up
• 23:26
  in an environment with a single mom, welfare money wasn't there.
• 23:32
  There were a lot of hardships. There were a lot of ways that
• 23:37
  you just had to turn them around in in the positive.
• 23:40
  And maybe initially that just came a coping mechanism.
• 23:43
  But I think I really like that coping mechanism and it suits me
• 23:47
  well and it really helps me understand the world and
• 23:51
  continuously have hope. Because with every downside
• 23:54
  there, there's always an opportunity to come out stronger
• 23:58
  if you pause to reflect and and try and take the learning side.
• 24:02
  Yeah. Is it also about having a
• 24:04
  purpose? Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:09
  I think that's the the centre of of it all.
• 24:12
  And and for me with with founding sadly as well, that to
• 24:15
  me was combination of of all the aspects, travelling, living
• 24:19
  abroad, community and and giving back again and doing something
• 24:23
  where I feel I can make a meaningful impact to this world.
• 24:28
  Yeah, that's beautiful. Hey, I want to shift back to
• 24:34
  immigration for a bit because we had, we talked about government
• 24:39
  and the impact it had in preparing for this episode.
• 24:43
  I had, let's call it a brain wave for, for lack of a better
• 24:48
  word, that we live in a country where we see or we live in a
• 24:56
  broader society, the EU, where we see immigration as a problem.
• 25:01
  On the back of what we just discussed about seeing things as
• 25:05
  an opportunity. How can we turn this around in
• 25:09
  our thinking to make it an opportunity and to get the best
• 25:13
  out of these people? What do we need to do?
• 25:16
  I think everything starts with with understanding and awareness
• 25:20
  and and what you see happening. It happens across the globe, not
• 25:23
  just here. When people are insecure and
• 25:26
  they're financially impacted in their own wallets than anything
• 25:30
  that's different or odds that behaves different or things
• 25:33
  different may become the reason. And that doesn't just impact
• 25:39
  immigrants. It's LGTBQ.
• 25:41
  It is it is a wider issue that we're seeing as well.
• 25:45
  And I think it starts with understanding why they're
• 25:50
  feeling this way about immigration and are people
• 25:54
  looking different and feeling different and then asking the
• 25:57
  questions and, and having conversations and, and always
• 26:00
  fall back on the numbers. Because if we look the numbers,
• 26:04
  we'll see why we need immigrants and why we need highly skilled
• 26:08
  migrants. We, we've got one of the lowest
• 26:10
  unemployment rates in the world. It's, it's 4%, yet we have
• 26:14
  400,000 jobs open. And unfortunately, even if we
• 26:18
  would up or reskill any single person in this country, there
• 26:23
  won't be enough for, for, for, to fill the roles that we have.
• 26:27
  So I think sometimes that the real issue and, and maybe the
• 26:30
  underlying issue is, is more in regards to housing because
• 26:35
  that's what people, again, they feel they see.
• 26:37
  So it's like, oh, the immigrants are here to take up our housing,
• 26:40
  but what if we would just solve the housing crisis, which has
• 26:43
  been there for 10-15 years and they keep being initiatives, but
• 26:47
  they're not being resolved. So really working with our
• 26:50
  government as well to, to raise awareness on all of these topics
• 26:54
  and, and to make sure that we start with an angle in mind and
• 26:59
  that we really look at the numbers because we're only
• 27:01
  talking about 16,000 highly skilled migrants last year.
• 27:05
  It's not a big group, but if we would lose that group, what
• 27:08
  would that mean for our innovation?
• 27:09
  What would that mean for our growth?
• 27:11
  What would that mean for our tech ecosystem?
• 27:15
  Is that something we want to jeopardize?
• 27:18
  Yeah, there's, there's a lot to be missed.
• 27:20
  Then I think what would you change in, in the way we
• 27:24
  currently approach these these files like housing, like
• 27:29
  immigration? A by coming together and and
• 27:32
  starting with the end goal in mind, other would call it
• 27:35
  vision. But you think about where do we
• 27:37
  want to be as a country in in 20 years?
• 27:40
  What do we want to be known for? Is that indeed innovation?
• 27:45
  Is that sense of belonging, making people feel at home?
• 27:48
  What is it? And, and work your way back from
• 27:50
  that. And that means, yeah, figuring
• 27:53
  out housing, that means figuring out jobs, that means figuring
• 27:56
  out social healthcare system, that means employment laws.
• 27:59
  That means a lot of other things that will come into play.
• 28:04
  I wouldn't tackle it as a siloed topic.
• 28:08
  Do you think it gets tackled as a silo in silos at the moment?
• 28:15
  I do, particularly around the election period.
• 28:17
  It's, it's, of course it's, it's a nice topic to win your votes
• 28:21
  with, but when you look at the numbers, is that really the
• 28:26
  topic we should be talking about?
• 28:28
  I don't think so, but I I understand why we are.
• 28:33
  So it will probably be a topic again at the upcoming elections,
• 28:38
  but once the elections are then done, not much actually happens.
• 28:42
  No, that that we've seen for the past.
• 28:45
  What is it a year? Do you, do you think we can
• 28:49
  borrow anything from playbooks of other countries or other
• 28:53
  societies there? Absolutely.
• 28:56
  There's a, there's a lot to be borrowed from, from Scandinavia,
• 28:58
  I think when it comes to the system and labour market, the
• 29:05
  employment system, but also and how they, they dealt with
• 29:08
  immigrants. I think Spain at the moment,
• 29:11
  good example as well where they're really saying if we do
• 29:15
  not get, I think they just had a million refugees signed and,
• 29:21
  and, and given them local status because they can see the country
• 29:25
  in 10-15 years. We need talent and we don't have
• 29:29
  this in our own country. It's mainly blue collar workers,
• 29:33
  but also for the Netherlands, it's not just highly skilled
• 29:36
  migrants, it's it's healthcare, it's education, it's blue collar
• 29:39
  workers where, where the need is.
• 29:41
  So I think looking abroad and, and, and also seeing how we can
• 29:46
  collaborate more within the EU is, is, is super important in,
• 29:51
  in figuring this out the right way.
• 29:52
  Cool. I want to shift a bit.
• 29:56
  You talked about getting investors on board and initially
• 29:59
  you bootstrapped. At what point did you discover
• 30:03
  you were ready for investors? You mentioned that you were
• 30:07
  growing like 3-4 X with what else?
• 30:11
  What makes what what? What made you ready for to get
• 30:15
  investors on board? Not sure if you're ever ready to
• 30:19
  be really honest. And I wasn't like I wasn't in
• 30:22
  the in the mindset. We need to get investors at some
• 30:25
  stage. I, I honestly wasn't looking
• 30:28
  until indeed we, we got that, that nomination of, of fast
• 30:32
  growing company that we had lots of, of offers all of a sudden
• 30:37
  in, in our inbox. That just got me curious about
• 30:40
  that world 'cause I had it. I had a very predetermined view,
• 30:43
  having worked for Uber as well in, in Hypergrove.
• 30:46
  So knowing what that can mean positive, but also what the
• 30:49
  downside could be in working with, with VCs.
• 30:54
  But it got curious and like, why not maybe, maybe we should just
• 30:57
  take 10 calls and then see if what it does to us.
• 31:02
  Does it confirm our assumptions that we have about the, the,
• 31:06
  the, the world? Or does it indeed open things
• 31:09
  up? And if when we started having
• 31:11
  those conversations and we actually felt a click with a few
• 31:14
  investors, it, it opened up this whole new world that we didn't
• 31:18
  know even existed where there was care about values and how
• 31:22
  you do things as well as the the results and how you direct them.
• 31:26
  Because ultimately 1 needs to go hand in hand with the other.
• 31:32
  So I think it, yeah, it, it, it wasn't like a moment that we're
• 31:37
  ready now, but hey, these guys are really great.
• 31:41
  How cool will it be to partner up with them and then increase
• 31:47
  the impact that we can have on society, on the world with the
• 31:51
  insights that they bring. And to our board members, they
• 31:53
  have skilled start-ups, scale UPS to multinational level.
• 31:58
  So just having those insights and partnering with someone.
• 32:03
  Yeah, it really felt like a like a good value add alongside to,
• 32:07
  to money being nice. But it was also the the
• 32:11
  partnership with the with the VCs.
• 32:13
  Yeah, looking back with you on board investors earlier, if you
• 32:20
  had to redo the the whole thing? No, but what I would do is
• 32:24
  probably Angel investors. We didn't do that.
• 32:28
  So we we were already so big by the time we started looking for
• 32:33
  investors, the ticket size was no longer interesting for Angel
• 32:36
  investors. And looking at other founders
• 32:39
  and see how much value they get out of those early stage angels
• 32:45
  that support them and help them grow.
• 32:48
  Yeah, I think in hindsight, I would have probably explored
• 32:52
  that avenue a little bit sooner. Yeah, but then really targeted
• 32:57
  at at the Angel part and not the big VC world.
• 33:01
  Correct. No, I, I actually really, yeah,
• 33:04
  liked that we've grown this much bootstrap.
• 33:07
  So by that time we were really solving the problem that our
• 33:10
  clients were facing and it drove us to have a business model that
• 33:13
  was effective and that was working and that was profitable,
• 33:16
  which post COVID became quite of an important piece many startups
• 33:22
  and scale UPS. Yeah, but also for investors, I
• 33:25
  think. Yeah, that wasn't before, but it
• 33:28
  became one of the the criteria as well of a sudden money.
• 33:31
  Wasn't free anymore. So, So what happened to the
• 33:37
  company as a result? Did it, what did it change?
• 33:41
  Having investors on board, positive and negative?
• 33:44
  It's definitely a big. Shift that I underestimated for
• 33:50
  contacts. My Co founder is also my partner
• 33:52
  so a lot of decisions were made at the kitchen table or with the
• 33:56
  team in the office. We didn't have a board.
• 34:00
  So with getting investors on boards, he had to set up a board
• 34:03
  and all of a sudden I was a chairman of the board and all of
• 34:06
  a sudden I had to run effective board meetings without actually
• 34:10
  having been to one prior to that.
• 34:12
  So I think that was a, a steep learning curve, a nice one.
• 34:17
  I got to speak with a lot of amazing founders and clients who
• 34:21
  run board meetings and, and, and learn from them.
• 34:24
  Mathais Wella is a perfect example from you.
• 34:26
  He helped me a lot with his, his insights and learnings along the
• 34:31
  way. But once you get there and, and,
• 34:33
  and you know how to run them effectively and, and prep your
• 34:37
  prep your meetings and, and what to do and, and what to not do,
• 34:41
  it is absolutely such a game changer in a positive way.
• 34:45
  Like being challenged at the moment that you really need that
• 34:48
  challenge going to someone who actually knows their stuff to
• 34:52
  help and advise you and and quickly get the company in the
• 34:57
  right direction. Yeah, it it really helped us
• 35:03
  fast track a lot of decisions did it make.
• 35:07
  It easier to make decisions because usually if you you
• 35:11
  broaden the group of decision takers it slows down the
• 35:15
  decision taking process. But how was that for you?
• 35:19
  Yes, it slows it down. But ultimately the decisions are
• 35:23
  better and more effective. So in the past we would just
• 35:27
  make decisions on our own and run and and we would make a lot
• 35:30
  of mistakes and we would experiment a lot.
• 35:32
  And then that also takes time. And I think now by having a step
• 35:37
  where you get to learn from others and get that input and
• 35:40
  then make a decision based on that in combination with data
• 35:44
  takes a few more steps, but not that much longer.
• 35:46
  And we we don't have a big board.
• 35:48
  It's just that the five of us. So it's it's still very
• 35:51
  manageable. Yeah, but what I'm also.
• 35:54
  Hearing you say is that it's more in, in terms of processes,
• 36:00
  it's more efficient because you have less rework, less decisions
• 36:04
  that you have to revisit in this case, yeah, yeah, because we're
• 36:08
  first time founders. So we learn a lot along the way,
• 36:11
  but that takes time as well, right?
• 36:13
  Learning. It's fun, but it's not always
• 36:15
  the best for your business. Sometimes it's good to to get
• 36:18
  some outside input and make sure you learn or you you do the
• 36:22
  right experiments at the right time, because then you get to
• 36:26
  yeah, the next steps faster. OK, so out of.
• 36:29
  Curiosity. Yeah.
• 36:30
  How did you? Because you talked about Mathias
• 36:33
  Vella. He was on the show 2 episodes
• 36:35
  ago. How did you get into contact?
• 36:38
  Did you know him already or the were you linked by investors
• 36:42
  they're a client of? Ours, so I didn't know who was,
• 36:47
  but we've never actually connected because we worked
• 36:50
  directly with with their HR and their their mobility team.
• 36:53
  It's actually through tech leap. So tech leap has events and I'm
• 36:56
  part of their community and one was around running an effective
• 37:00
  board and it was a small session and it was held at the at Muses
• 37:06
  office with, with Mattice. So that's how I how I got that.
• 37:09
  OK, OK, I understand. Let's go to the to the future.
• 37:15
  Let's say that every company would do one thing that is
• 37:21
  necessary to make people belong in their team, whether they're
• 37:24
  from outside the country or that's a not your stereotypical
• 37:30
  hoodie guy. What's one thing companies can
• 37:34
  do to make people belong? Sounds simple but.
• 37:37
  It's not. It's creating a safe space
• 37:40
  because ultimately you want to create a space where people feel
• 37:45
  safe to give feedback and to ask questions and to challenge the
• 37:49
  status quo. So I think that's, that's the
• 37:51
  key piece. And what does that mean it it's
• 37:54
  probably a little bit different for everyone, but for every
• 37:56
  founder to, to ask themselves that question.
• 38:00
  What's needed to create that safe space in my company?
• 38:04
  Because then you can ask your your team the questions about
• 38:07
  belonging because they will be eager to help if you have an
• 38:11
  engaged team. But then I'd be more than happy
• 38:14
  to help you out. Like what can we improve?
• 38:16
  What's really happening and what's working well and, and
• 38:20
  what isn't? But it starts with a yeah, a
• 38:23
  safe space. Yeah.
• 38:25
  What do you consider? A safe space for me, it's
• 38:27
  something. Where people can be themselves
• 38:31
  and can bring their authenticity to work.
• 38:34
  Where they're not afraid to ask questions, where they can give
• 38:38
  their candid feedback and actually rewarded for making
• 38:42
  mistakes and having that culture of it's a good thing.
• 38:45
  Let's share learnings and let's build something together where
• 38:51
  you can challenge your leaders and where you can give feedback
• 38:54
  360 without there being a form. Oh, that's important.
• 38:59
  Without there being a form, because I used to work in a 360,
• 39:03
  but that was form based. Yeah.
• 39:07
  I just still go to pick who in the 360 was giving me feedback.
• 39:13
  So that's that way I would create sort of my own safe
• 39:16
  space. But yeah, yeah.
• 39:19
  It becomes quite biased, yeah, because you.
• 39:23
  Get into your own echo chamber, indeed.
• 39:26
  I know, I know. I'm.
• 39:28
  A I'm a firm believer in in having conversations with your
• 39:32
  team. Yeah.
• 39:33
  How? How do you do A?
• 39:35
  360 without forms Just really curious because I I have a
• 39:41
  problem imagining this in. I understand the concept but I I
• 39:46
  just want to pick your brain on this.
• 39:48
  How do you do that? Is that sort of 1 moment every
• 39:53
  month, quarter that you sit as a team?
• 39:58
  Yeah. You.
• 39:58
  You ingrain it in your culture. And we're only just just setting
• 40:01
  it up so that I can actually explain it as well as part of it
• 40:04
  as part of the process. But every time you have a
• 40:08
  one-on-one with your team, you, you give them feedback and vice
• 40:12
  versa, they give you feedback. The same with projects.
• 40:15
  If you're working together on a project in the moment, ideally,
• 40:19
  ideally the same day, even if possible, if you see something
• 40:22
  happening, you create that culture to share that feedback
• 40:26
  positive or area of improvement. And then it doesn't become this
• 40:30
  big thing that has to happen once a quarter or once a year,
• 40:34
  but it's it happens every day, but you record it and you make
• 40:39
  sure that it it does link to performance ultimately by and
• 40:45
  and that part you do twice a year in our case, some companies
• 40:48
  do it quarterly. OK, so.
• 40:51
  You really make it micro moments, almost feedback.
• 40:56
  Yeah, I would. But we have a small type team,
• 40:59
  so you can you have that culture where you can give people
• 41:03
  feedback and people appreciate it as well.
• 41:06
  And we've had training sessions around, OK, so how do you give
• 41:09
  feedback? What's the best way to share
• 41:12
  when something has happened? And always start with how does
• 41:15
  it make you feel? Don't point any finger so that
• 41:18
  there's certain techniques to help people feel comfortable
• 41:22
  with giving and receiving feedback, particularly across
• 41:25
  all cultures. Because again, working with
• 41:27
  people from countries where it's really not done to speak up to
• 41:30
  your boss because you will lose your job to the continents that
• 41:34
  we employ. So in the, the Dutch directness,
• 41:37
  they will say anything and everything at any given moment
• 41:40
  of time. You don't have to ask them a
• 41:41
  question. So it's it's it's just figuring
• 41:45
  how how that is combined. Yeah.
• 41:48
  And also. Giving indeed the the safety for
• 41:52
  people to understand each other's perspective on how that
• 41:56
  could work. So how how can men help and
• 42:03
  contribute to this, to making teams more inclusive, making
• 42:10
  creating safe spaces? Are there specific things that
• 42:13
  white men like me take myself as an example or can do?
• 42:18
  I was just going to say everyone needs to be a little.
• 42:20
  Bit more like you because that's that's where it starts.
• 42:24
  It's it's asking these questions.
• 42:27
  Bias is in everything. It's in everyone starts by
• 42:30
  asking these questions. What is your role in educating
• 42:34
  yourself and reflecting and surrounding by people who are
• 42:38
  different than you, whether it's females or whether it's people
• 42:41
  from different background or different skin colour or the
• 42:45
  LGTPQ. But making sure you have a
• 42:48
  collection of people around you that will then become the the
• 42:53
  the catalyst for growth, I think sounds like a great.
• 42:56
  Place to move to my last question.
• 42:58
  Thank you very much for the conversation.
• 43:00
  Really enjoyed this. I hope you did as well.
• 43:05
  If people want to connect with you, learn more about Setly,
• 43:10
  where do you want to send them? And also please tell us about
• 43:14
  your new upcoming or maybe even already live feature that you
• 43:18
  have on the platform. Nice, but everyone's always
• 43:21
  welcome. To add me on on LinkedIn and to
• 43:23
  follow me there, we have a website that explains everything
• 43:26
  and anything about what we do. And indeed, we have a very
• 43:30
  exciting new feature because I think we spoke a lot about
• 43:34
  immigration and integration as well.
• 43:37
  And it's super important for us to create a world where everyone
• 43:40
  feels at home to not just solve that for the international
• 43:43
  talent, but also the local talent.
• 43:45
  And what we were saying is that with the housing crisis, it's
• 43:48
  very difficult to find a house if you have a lower budget.
• 43:53
  So for the early to mid career. So we created something called
• 43:57
  Tenant Help, and that's our latest feature where people can
• 44:00
  find each other within the app. It's completely free and then
• 44:05
  together they can have a higher budget and therefore increase
• 44:08
  their their likelihood in finding a home and that is also
• 44:12
  part. Of making people belong in a
• 44:15
  society that they have a roof over their head, Yes.
• 44:19
  Foundational to me, yeah. So, Marika.
• 44:23
  From the Thank you very much for an amazing conversation.
• 44:26
  We'll mention those links in the show notes, and we'll also link
• 44:31
  to the new functionality with that.
• 44:37
  Listeners, thank you very much for listening, and until the
• 44:40
  next episode, keep being awesome.
• 44:47
  Well, that's it for episode 127 of Women Disrupting Tech with
• 44:52
  Marika von Epern titled How to Use Relocation to Build
• 44:56
  Inclusive Teams. Marika, and I hope that you
• 45:00
  found our conversation as purposeful and practical as we
• 45:03
  intended it to be. And if you have any questions
• 45:06
  for Marika, please share them in the comments on Spotify, Apple
• 45:10
  podcast, or YouTube. When you want to connect with
• 45:13
  Marika, learn more about Setly or get free access to tenant hub
• 45:17
  for your company, please check out the links in the show notes.
• 45:21
  As usual, you can find the show notes at Women Descriptive Tech
• 45:24
  dot Blog, and you can find that link in the caption there.
• 45:29
  You can also find more information about the Embrace
• 45:32
  Health event that I mentioned in the intro.
• 45:35
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• 45:38
  leaving a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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• 46:35
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• 46:37
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• 46:40
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• 46:44
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• 46:48
  With that, I wish you a wonderful day.
• 46:50
  I hope to see you in the next episode, and until then, as
• 46:54
  always, keep being awesome.