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The A-Z on Intermittent Fasting · HER

• 0:08
  Pam Peeke, MD: Hi, I am Dr.
• 0:08
  Pam Peak, and This is episode number 548 of the Bold And the Brave.
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  Her podcast.
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  today I'm joined by a repeat offender.
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  That's right, Dr.
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  Susan Kleiner is back again.
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  Absolutely.
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  There she is with her little heart and everything and she
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  is absolutely extraordinary.
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  The owner and founder of High Performance Nutrition, uh, with PhD in an RD and every
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  single kind of education and academic standing you can in the nutrition world.
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  Um, and she has written countless books, And the latest one was The Good Mood Diet,
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  feel Great while you drop that weight.
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  Oh no.
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  That wasn't meant to really rhyme, was it?
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  It was.
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  Okay.
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  I get it.
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  I get it.
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  Anyway, so Dr.
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  Susan Kleiner, welcome back to the Herb Podcast.
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  you so much Dr.
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  Pam.
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  I am thrilled to have, be a returning guest or a repeat offender, however.
• 1:18
  Pam Peeke, MD: I kind of like repeat offender.
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  I don't know, maybe I have like some law enforcement in my blood somewhere.
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  I think it's just the rebellion in you.
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  Pam Peeke, MD: You know something, you are absolutely correct.
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  You know, you always nail it, Sue.
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  I'm just saying.
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  So here's the deal.
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  Here we are at the beginning of a new year.
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  2026 and you know what's on everyone's damn mind.
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  And That is, their number one thing is health.
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  and usually health is translated into weight.
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  because, the majority of Americans, I'm only gonna stick with Americans
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  right now, the majority of Americans, are at least overweight.
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  Okay.
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  At least overweight.
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  And they've been that way.
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  since 1996.
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  Quite frankly.
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  We've had a majority of people, of course, overweight then
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  was like five or 10 pounds.
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  Now it's more like 30.
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  And then we have, and women are worse than men.
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  a greater percentage of obesity out there in women.
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  Gotta say we're in the forties, right?
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  40%.
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  So we've got all kinds of things going on.
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  And then we also have the GLP type medications floating around.
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  the, announcement about Wago v.
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  from Novo Nordisk, coming out in tablet form now, and basically
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  oral form just hit the news.
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  And so now we've suddenly got all kinds of interesting options out there.
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  and people are sitting there saying, okay, what am I supposed to do?
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  And.
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  Talk to me about this whole issue of intermittent fasting since it's
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  everywhere and people are talking about it all the time, and what's going
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  to end up working well for people.
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  that's a huge mouthful of wild and crazy stuff.
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  But what I'm saying quite frankly, is that the world has become more complex.
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  Okay?
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  Now I'm gonna ask you, Sue, right?
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  in the years past.
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  Don't people write about this time of year?
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  Say, uh, I gotta do a diet.
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  Okay, so what's your thought now?
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  Well, now hopefully it's at least diet and exercise and maybe we
• 3:46
  have, we, we've had an impact.
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  I know my gym is packed right now, and I love to see that.
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  Although, I have to say in the weight room, I still am one of
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  very few women, and girls that.
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  spend time in there, although I have to say all those young dudes no longer ask
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  me if I'm actually using the rack, if I'm standing by it with weights on the bar,
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  it means I'm really using that racks.
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  Pam Peeke, MD: I love that, that's such a great anecdote.
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  I just, you know, are you really using that?
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  No, I'm just standing here like a moron staring at the wall.
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  What do you think I'm doing?
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  You know, if you were standing here, what do you.
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  I, I wouldn't even ask you.
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  Obviously you're using the rack.
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  know.
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  So, but I mean, I am, I'm always looking at the bright side And so I,
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  along with the idea of diet, food restriction and weight loss, I
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  think that the exercise message is beginning to hit home for more people.
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  And I think that the concept of weight loss.
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  Is beginning to overlap, at least with health and fitness and lifespan and health
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  span, meaning that you can enhance the quality of your life over the years that
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  you have by eating well and exercising.
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  However, there is no doubt that when we start out the year.
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  If you pick up a magazine, if you open your laptop, if you look on
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  your phone, if you're scrolling in social media, what you're going to
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  see are as many weight loss plans as there are, I think, stars in the sky.
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  So how do we know number one.
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  How should we eat to be healthy and promote a lifestyle that we want and
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  support our exercise that we wanna do?
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  And the other is this alphabet soup of drugs available to us now
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  to help control how much we eat.
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  Not what we eat necessarily, but how much we eat and how hungry we are.
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  All of This is kind of converging at this time of year to the concept, as
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  you said, of either, we think of it as intermittent fasting or time-limited.
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  Time-restricted eating.
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  You'll see both terms.
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  You'll see if f and TRE, we just love this alphabet soup, but it's the same thing.
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  Time restricted eating, intermittent fasting, and it overlaps
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  really with the GLP one drugs.
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  And so how do we, find our way through the forest?
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  Pam Peeke, MD: Oh, I'm gonna put something out there for you.
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  Sue.
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  I really want to hear what you have to say about this.
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  Okay.
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  So This is Dr.
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  Peak's take on the whole damn thing.
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  Let's just cut right to the quick.
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  Okay.
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  We're not gonna sit here and do, like now, now we're gonna talk about
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  16 hours of fa No, I'm gonna tell you One of the things I found after
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  I met an extraordinary scientist, Dr.
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  Sachin Panda at the Salk Institute, who became a good friend, was
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  the whole issue of honoring.
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  The clock.
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  Okay, so I'm all about circadian rhythm.
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  In other words, let's just go back to cave woman days.
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  And I gotta say, I've always used this analogy and I just had on the show.
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  Dr.
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  Marian Nessel, one of the greatest names in, nutrition science.
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  She and I are both, Berkeley grads she's a trip and a half, and of course she just
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  published her new book, what to Eat Now,
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  which
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  like this.
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  Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah.
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  I, it actually weighs more than I do.
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  I use it as a door stop.
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  No, it took her four years and she thought it was gonna take six months
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  to update her original book What to Eat, and she found out that all the
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  food that she had discussed in the original book doesn't exist anymore.
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  You know, that's how fast everything churns through
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  all these fads and whatever.
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  So here's my take on it.
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  and interestingly, she said the Same thing.
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  So I feel somewhat affirmed.
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  Okay, so here it goes.
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  We look at ourselves as caved women.
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  Let's just be a cave woman for a moment.
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  All right.
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  What time did you wake up?
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  when some light hit the cave And then you heard the Tweety birds,
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  And then you said, man, I'm hungry.
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  And guess what?
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  There was no seven 11.
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  There's no Kroger grocery.
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  Come on out.
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  No
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  refrigerator.
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  Pam Peeke, MD: Like, girl, your your ass is up and moving because if you
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  don't move and groove, there is no food.
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  Right?
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  And so you get up and suddenly you are physically active.
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  No gym needed, man.
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  You gotta survive.
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  And so you're up with the Tweety birds part of This is survival.
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  You don't wanna be in there when bad things wanna crawl in there
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  and, You know, have you for lunch.
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  So out you go with your little, You know, tribe or.
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  Whatever the hell.
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  and, you know, you're, you're foraging and messing around and
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  you know, you pick up what you can.
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  Oh look, there's a, a raspberry bush.
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  let's grab some of that stuff.
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  Instead of saying like, oh, I can't have that.
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  It's got carbs in it.
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  I mean, I just wanna laugh my ass off.
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  Every time I think about how ludicrous it is.
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  It is, it is like, oh my God, it is.
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  It's some carbs and yeah, it's called Living in Survival.
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  And now eat the, eat the whole bush if you have to.
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  Come on now.
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  And then of course you know if you're lucky, lucky you get one main meal.
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  That day.
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  Otherwise what you have is a bunch of stuff you could just pick and poke and,
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  hope that, you know, you can pretty much survive until the next day when
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  hopefully hunting is more productive.
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  And so you're running around physically active.
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  Just by virtue of survival.
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  and you're eating a little here, eating a little there with
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  regard to physical activity.
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  You're resting here, you're resting there, so it's this beautiful harmony
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  of a little here or a little there all intersperse throughout the day, and
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  there are definite times when you have nothing to eat when you're fasting.
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  I mean, it could be that it's snowing out or, you know, whatever the issue may be.
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  and our bodies were meant to utilize fasting, to our metabolic benefit.
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  And we see this in all of the research that's poured out over this whole issue.
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  So, I look at the cave woman.
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  You know, kind of ethic.
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  And I say, you know, women say, yeah, but today is 2026.
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  And I'm like, I don't wanna break your heart.
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  You know, really, I, I am the messenger, so don't hurt me here.
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  But to affect enough metabolic change in your genome.
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  To thoroughly adapt to the insanity of what we do to our
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  bodies today is impossible.
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  'cause it takes a long time for the genome to really show,
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  You know, substantial change.
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  The epigenome obviously does, but the genome itself.
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  So, for all intent and purposes I see myself as that cave woman.
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  Dammit.
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  So I'm up with Tweety Birds and I know, I know there are night owls out there.
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  We'll get to you.
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  by the way, if you are a night owl, you are the one guarding the cave.
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  You were the one to raise your hand saying, oh, I got this.
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  You know, like I'm a night owl.
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  but for the rest of them, You know, the mass majority like to,
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  You know, do the morning thing and you just follow it like that.
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  And what time do you think they stopped eating?
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  When do you think they stopped
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  eating?
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  Yeah, it's like they either never had anything to eat in the first place.
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  in which case, You know, they went directly into some level of
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  a fasting state or they actually had something to eat, you know,
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  that was fairly substantial.
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  And then, you know, as soon as it became sunset, it's like,
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  my ass is outta here because.
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  All kinds of things crawl out of the forest in the dark
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  and they want me for dinner.
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  And so you go back to a safe place And what do you do there?
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  Well, you like, You know, crank out your iPad and your iPhone and
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  you start doing a little texting.
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  Come on now.
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  No, it was dark in there and plus you didn't wanna have a whole lot of anything
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  going on 'cause you don't wanna attract.
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  Any of the bad boys.
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  And so you went to bed in an appropriate time.
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  You went to sleep and up you went with the Tweety birds.
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  Basically rinse and repeat.
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  Okay.
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  That's the way it was supposed to work.
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  let's look at it now.
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  Sue.
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  What does it look like today?
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  What's your classic kind of situation today?
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  Flash forward.
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  Well.
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  Six situation today is, you know, it's fascinating, when you've been in a field
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  for a long enough time that you see the arc of change and sort of the histotripsy
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  points when, things impact our behaviors.
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  So in nutrition and particularly Marian Nessel, Has seen the impact of the
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  food industry on our eating behaviors.
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  So, It used to be that we ate three squares a day, let's just say that, and
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  that's been going on a long time, right?
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  We've eaten three square meals a day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
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  And sometime during the 1980s that I remember, 'cause I was already a
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  registered dietician in the field of sports nutrition, we started
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  to talk about snacking And that athletes needed more fuel and they
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  needed to prefu before exercise.
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  And this was all.
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  Focused in sports and very active people.
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  Well, the snack food industry, which was taken over by the cigarette
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  industry who were masters of altering habits and behavior and influenced
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  the way people thought about things.
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  They saw this as an incredible opportunity.
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  Also, as they started to develop all of these.
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  Ultraprocessed food technologies, and it was this opportunity to say, wow, if
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  Americans start snacking, we can feed them and sell them a ton more food.
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  And so all of a sudden, what was to me, sports nutrition advice
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  became advice to the average person.
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  In concert with, I have to be honest.
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  I'm going to call 'em out.
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  Gatorade.
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  When I started working in the early eighties and mid eighties with
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  Gatorade, Gatorade was a sports drink.
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  You drank it to fuel your exercise at a point.
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  Late eighties, early nineties, they changed their marketing to what
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  they called a beverage of choice all day long, which is when I stopped
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  working with them because I didn't understand why kids in school should
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  be drinking Gatorade all day long.
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  Why anybody should be drinking Gatorade all day long.
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  And it was all happening at the same time.
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  Everybody needs to eat small, frequent meals all day long.
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  And then it became three big meals with three snacks a day, And we were
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  just buying the heck out of all these products, and there was never any.
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  Substantiation that that was better for us.
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  At the same time were, we were being told that, you know, fats were bad
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  for us because we had the Framingham study that started to tell us
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  there was a problem with fat in our diets and leading to heart disease.
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  And so now we had all these new processed foods that were high in carbs.
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  Processed carbs, low in fats.
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  You could eat those all day long.
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  And here we are.
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  We are eating all day long.
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  All kind of things that may or may not give us good nutrition.
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  and certainly way more calories than we need to be eating
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  because we never need and process.
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  Right.
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  And so your story about how people ate at the beginning of human history.
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  It is certainly relevant because, except for maybe a minor few flips of
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  a genome, we are in the same bodies.
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  Right.
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  as you said, we have not changed in the last, what, 10,000 years.
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  Pam Peeke, MD: Sue, I identify as.
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  A
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 17:25
  Yeah.
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  There we go.
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  Pam Peeke, MD: I do.
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  I identify as a
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  but but you would be a miracle cave woman, right?
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  Because.
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  Women didn't live much past their childbearing years.
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  And so the new story is because when you're young, you can do almost
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  anything and survive until you get a cut and there's no penicillin
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  and you die of an infection.
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  But when you age.
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  We also have some other things happening that may not have been
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  happening during 10,000 years ago, but that we are understanding
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  through research does help and.
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  One of those things is not having our digestive systems so full
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  all the time that the rest of the body doesn't get the blood flow.
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  It needs to recover on a daily basis.
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  Pam Peeke, MD: Nor does it have an opportunity to clean up its mess,
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  which is where fasting comes in.
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  And that fasting piece, you know, people just need to understand.
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  What that's all about.
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  And I honestly think the work of both, Satchin Panda at the
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  Salk Institute, as well as Dr.
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  Volter Longo, at uscs, their large, longevity and, geriatric, institute, has
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  really helped us understand why it is.
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  Extremely important and beneficial to allow the body time to, as it
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  were, rest and digest, which is what the parasympathetic nervous
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  system does, rest and digest.
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  Instead, what we do is we eat.
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  24 7, I swear it's insane.
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  there's no time for the body to clean up, the breakdown products,
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  of both physical activity as well as, you know, what we eat.
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  and therefore the non feeding time, you know, we call it fasting, but the non
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  feeding time is exquisitely important.
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  there was a fantastic Japanese, scientist who won the Nobel
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  Prize, in identifying autophagy.
• 19:45
  Um, And that.
• 19:46
  Fancy word basically means how shall I say this?
• 19:50
  you're gonna love my analogy.
• 19:52
  So it's like a Dyson goes right through all your cells and sucks
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  up all of the debris, the dying cells, the pieces of cells hanging
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  out, toxins and whatever else.
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  During the phase of autophagy, when you've, you've had at least six hours for
• 20:15
  sure, of not eating, And then you enter, a stage of autophagy, then it's important.
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  To honor that time where your little dyson's running around, cleaning up
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  the mess, And then you have cellular rejuvenation and regrowth, And the
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  cells aren't having to deal with all of this extra debris and whatever.
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  That was the magic behind, You know, the whole issue of the
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  fasting or non feeding hours.
• 20:49
  Now the question is, what does that actually look like?
• 20:52
  You know, if you pull up all kinds of articles about intermittent
• 20:57
  fasting or whatever, you know, you'll see everything from people who
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  will once a week just drink water.
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  for once a week.
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  Other people are like, okay, well, what I'll do is I'll cut my calories
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  like in half, every other day.
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  And I'll do that.
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  So I'll, I'll kind of, as it were, suffer every other day.
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  And that's alternate day, fasting.
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  And then you have all kinds of nuances with regard to how many hours per
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  day you actually fast versus eat.
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  So, between you and me.
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  In talking to some of the world's experts, who I met at Vaulter's, you know, big
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  fasting conference a number of years ago.
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  they came in from everywhere, Europe, Australia, uk, all the rest of it,
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  and they all said the same thing.
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  The sweet spot was eating during a window of 10 hours.
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  And having 14 hours to be able to, get that little, vacuum going
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  in your body and cleaning things up.
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  That's what that's all about.
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  and it really isn't a vacuum, per se.
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  What I'm being facetious, autophagy actually means.
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  You are eating yourself, meaning that your cells, the old debris is being
• 22:23
  cleaned out, by systems, throughout your body, that are refreshing your cells.
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  So I think I'm arguing now for the ability to be able to find a way.
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  That everyone out there in the Herb podcast land can, individualize
• 22:44
  and customize and experiment with, being a little bit more,
• 22:50
  how shall we say, cave woman ish.
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  in which case you have to find out based upon your crazy life and all the things
• 23:00
  that get in the way and back and forth.
• 23:03
  What works best for you?
• 23:05
  When I was talking to Dr.
• 23:06
  Nessel, she said, you know what, everybody says A way to eat is
• 23:13
  successful if you can sustain it over time and it has healthful benefits.
• 23:22
  if you can't check those two boxes, whatever you're doing is crazy.
• 23:27
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 23:27
  Yeah.
• 23:27
  So, yeah, absolutely.
• 23:29
  I mean, it's always, you know, speaking as a nutrition coach, if
• 23:34
  you can't do it, it doesn't matter.
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  I could create the best, healthiest diet in the world.
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  If people don't eat it, it's irrelevant.
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  And so, ideally, we can.
• 23:47
  Hang our hat on a few data points, but it doesn't mean that if you can't,
• 23:52
  if this doesn't work for you, then.
• 23:55
  Drop the whole thing.
• 23:56
  So as you said, eating in the morning versus if you set your 10 hours, let's say
• 24:03
  starting at six or seven in the morning or eight in the morning, whatever time
• 24:10
  in the morning, you have something that resembles a breakfast in your mind, eating
• 24:16
  earlier, And then going into your fasting.
• 24:21
  Sort of by seven or eight o'clock at night.
• 24:26
  not eating late at night, rather than saying, I'm gonna eat for 10 hours
• 24:30
  and I'm gonna start at noon and I will eat till 10 o'clock at night.
• 24:34
  Well, the data are showing us that it's actually more healthful.
• 24:40
  And if you're trying to lose fat, It is slightly.
• 24:45
  Better to eat in the morning versus eating late at night.
• 24:51
  So that's
• 24:53
  Pam Peeke, MD: Well, there's another reason for that.
• 24:54
  Piling on that we know that, um, throughout our body
• 24:59
  have a circadian rhythm.
• 25:01
  One of them, is insulin.
• 25:04
  And so insulin tends to be most efficient in the morning up
• 25:09
  until about early afternoon-ish.
• 25:12
  So if you're eating a boatload of food, you know, like say Mount St.
• 25:16
  Pasta for dinner, Then you are flooding your body with a boatload of carbohydrate
• 25:23
  that your insulin can't manage optimally, And that will be stored as fat guaranteed.
• 25:29
  So the rule is if you really wanna have some great carbohydrate, that usually
• 25:35
  involves like a starch, then to do it in the morning, or at, I love to call.
• 25:41
  The meal, that takes place around one-ish, you know, two-ish.
• 25:45
  the main meal of the day, that's the main meal.
• 25:48
  'cause all of your hormonal systems are operating optimally and you'll be able to
• 25:56
  metabolize much better than if you were, you know, chowing down at nine o'clock
• 26:02
  at night or eight o'clock at night even.
• 26:05
  So you gotta be so careful.
• 26:06
  That's why I keep saying that clock.
• 26:09
  Circadian rhythm.
• 26:11
  You know, we, we could talk all day long about fancy programs you and I can
• 26:16
  create and they can sound real sexy And we could TikTok them out and whatever.
• 26:21
  But I don't want, again, I don't wanna break anyone's heart out there.
• 26:24
  Here we go.
• 26:25
  Okay.
• 26:26
  You have a prehistoric circadian rhythm built into every cell of your body.
• 26:33
  Every cell has its own clock, and you know you can wish and hope all you
• 26:39
  want, you could pray over your body.
• 26:42
  It ain't gonna change you.
• 26:44
  You're gonna have a circadian rhythm that honors the rotation of the earth.
• 26:51
  Right, because that's happening on a circadian rhythm.
• 26:54
  Last time I looked it was called sunrise and sunset.
• 26:57
  And you can't mess with that.
• 26:59
  I know.
• 27:00
  You're trying to mess with that.
• 27:01
  You go put, I got lights on at nighttime.
• 27:04
  Yeah.
• 27:04
  Well thanks for sharing, but you know, your body is still working
• 27:08
  on a Arcadian rhythm, you know, and you gotta, stay with it.
• 27:13
  And that's why I argue, against anything strange.
• 27:19
  That really deviates from that too much.
• 27:22
  You know what I mean?
• 27:23
  You could still customize.
• 27:24
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 27:24
  And that 10 hour window, I like that, um, even better than the
• 27:30
  eight hour window and 16 hour fast.
• 27:33
  Is because as women typically we can't get in all the nutrition that we
• 27:41
  really need in a brief period of time.
• 27:45
  I mean, some people do four hour eating windows.
• 27:50
  It's just not long enough for us to eat well and get in all our nutrition.
• 27:56
  And so the eight hour window.
• 27:59
  eight to 10 hours, let's say, is much more practical for most of us and
• 28:06
  allows you to live a social life, allows you to go out to dinner with people.
• 28:12
  Just say, I need an early bird dinner, but,
• 28:15
  but.
• 28:16
  Pam Peeke, MD: Oh no, not the blue plate special.
• 28:18
  Hey, listen, when we come back, Sue, I'm gonna be talking more about this whole
• 28:24
  issue of how do we make this practical.
• 28:28
  You and I as fellow cave women, I.
• 29:31
  And we're back.
• 29:32
  Okay.
• 29:33
  Hey, cave woman.
• 29:35
  So here's the gig, We wanna make this work so that women, you just said it,
• 29:41
  women can see the practicality here And the fact that it will help you.
• 29:47
  Because when women say, well, I'll go to the gym and I'll
• 29:49
  just work it all off, look.
• 29:51
  Don't wanna break your heart.
• 29:52
  That's not the way this goes.
• 29:54
  The science shows that if you really wanna peel off some extra fat, the
• 29:59
  best way to do it is through nutrition.
• 30:01
  And then physical activity adds the period at the end of the sentence,
• 30:07
  So, It makes it sustainable, and it maintains that beautiful metabolism.
• 30:13
  But nutrition is absolutely queen here, isn't it?
• 30:17
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 30:17
  Yes, yes.
• 30:18
  Although if you are focusing only on nutrition for weight loss and
• 30:23
  restricting your calories, you're also losing more muscle than if you
• 30:28
  would be working out in the gym.
• 30:30
  You'll hang on to more muscle, while you lose weight because we
• 30:34
  really don't care what you weigh.
• 30:36
  I mean, what you weigh only represents the relationship of your body to gravity.
• 30:42
  What we care about is the proportion of fat to muscle.
• 30:46
  And so, we're always gonna lose muscle when we're losing weight.
• 30:51
  we hope to lose more fat and less muscle.
• 30:53
  When we're gaining weight.
• 30:54
  We're gaining, hopefully, if we're working out, we're gaining more muscle
• 30:59
  and less fat, but it's always a ratio.
• 31:01
  And so in this case, we want to focus on our diet, on our nutrition,
• 31:08
  on the food that gives us.
• 31:11
  All of the nutrition to build our bodies up so we don't tear them down.
• 31:16
  The point is, as we live through each day, each week, each month,
• 31:22
  each year, that we get stronger, that we are more capable, not less.
• 31:28
  And so that requires.
• 31:30
  Really good solid nutrition.
• 31:32
  And so over that, let's say 10 hours or eight hours, you still need
• 31:37
  all that protein that we've talked about and it's been talked about
• 31:41
  multiple times on this podcast.
• 31:43
  and you don't wanna get in, you know, 90 grams of protein in one slug.
• 31:48
  That's disgusting.
• 31:49
  It's also not good for your intestines and your
• 31:53
  digestive.
• 31:54
  Right.
• 31:55
  And so when we, we want to separate, we still wanna separate out our food,
• 32:01
  we still wanna fuel our exercise.
• 32:04
  We don't want to under fuel training.
• 32:07
  You can under fuel later in the day, but not before your exercise.
• 32:11
  'cause then you don't get the biggest bang for your buck when you go in.
• 32:14
  To train, And so making sure you're well fueled, getting in your protein,
• 32:19
  getting in all the fiber that we need so that you still have that, low
• 32:25
  inflammatory response in your gut, which transfers out to the whole body.
• 32:31
  To get in the bone building minerals.
• 32:33
  I mean, I could go on and on.
• 32:35
  So the story is the same whether you are on a calorie restricted diet or
• 32:41
  a time restricted eating pattern, you still need the basic foundational
• 32:47
  nutrition to be super healthy and to train well, and to keep your mind clear
• 32:53
  and do all the things that you wanna do.
• 32:56
  Pam Peeke, MD: Actually magic about, your natural circadian rhythm is.
• 33:06
  effortlessly, I mean, effortlessly, you end up eating fewer calories because
• 33:12
  you have less time to munch out.
• 33:15
  I mean, if you're eating well, actually, when Satchin Panda began his, his
• 33:19
  scientific work, he went ahead and he just found out what a baseline number of hours
• 33:25
  of eating, of the average American, and he found out that people eat on average.
• 33:32
  15 to 16 hours a day.
• 33:35
  I mean, it's like a second career.
• 33:36
  Excuse me.
• 33:37
  Hi.
• 33:38
  I'm a software engineer and I'm also someone who eats, um, you
• 33:42
  know, it's like your second career.
• 33:44
  So, you know, when he saw that, he was like, uh, Roro that,
• 33:48
  that's leaving No time for that.
• 33:51
  cellular clean.
• 33:52
  The autophagy, people are eating later, they tend to move it down and
• 33:58
  they tend to, you know, pack in the largest chunk of calories, usually
• 34:04
  processed in very heavy stuff by volume.
• 34:08
  in the evening, which is again, the worst time to do all that.
• 34:11
  That's like a guaranteed, a way to be able to pack on pounds.
• 34:16
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 34:16
  You know, on your way to marginal diabetes.
• 34:19
  Pam Peeke, MD: I, I know it's like pretty nuts.
• 34:21
  So This is where he just said, okay, let's all calm down here.
• 34:25
  Now, you know, all together now, and This is the way it's gonna look.
• 34:30
  What we're gonna do is we're going to come up with a reasonable window.
• 34:35
  Now, by the way, the only reason why he used in his experiments, which he
• 34:40
  did, in the beginning with, animals.
• 34:43
  these are rats and, mice.
• 34:45
  And then he eventually went to humans.
• 34:47
  He used 16 eight because it was the easiest thing.
• 34:51
  And also, as you know, and I know as researchers, whenever you
• 34:55
  do research, you, you wanna get your biggest bang for your buck.
• 34:58
  You go for a bit of a harder protocol where, you know, for a natural fact
• 35:04
  you're gonna get a really cool result.
• 35:07
  You know what I'm saying?
• 35:08
  And so, I think that.
• 35:10
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 35:10
  Kind of the deck.
• 35:11
  Pam Peeke, MD: well, the other reason why you're gonna love this,
• 35:14
  when Sachin told me I fell off my chair, I was laughing so hard.
• 35:17
  He said in my original experiments, which were all published in Cell,
• 35:22
  which is one of the top, mags, journals out there for us.
• 35:27
  Um.
• 35:27
  his head research, guy running, you know, managing the protocol and everything.
• 35:33
  For him, he needed to be home by a certain time.
• 35:37
  Okay.
• 35:37
  I'm not kidding.
• 35:38
  I, I wish I could make this up.
• 35:41
  No.
• 35:41
  And he said, You know, I can do the 16 eight thing 'cause it works well
• 35:46
  with, You know, my household and how everything's wor, but I can't do
• 35:49
  this other, you know, And we can't do, You know, 14, 10 and whatever.
• 35:54
  He says, I gotta get these rats eating over eight hours And then You know,
• 35:58
  we're dead And then let's move along.
• 36:00
  So I laughed.
• 36:02
  and that's just another perfect example of how crazy science can be when
• 36:07
  you're executing these experiments.
• 36:10
  So.
• 36:10
  I personally, ever since I met Satchin, I'm not kidding you,
• 36:14
  I literally changed on a dime.
• 36:17
  I went out to the Salk Institute.
• 36:18
  I was out in the West coast for other meetings and I just, popped on by
• 36:23
  to see Satchin And we spent hours.
• 36:26
  the science was so compelling that I switched over everything for myself.
• 36:31
  I have never felt better in my life.
• 36:34
  So, you know, plenty of wiggle room.
• 36:37
  Now here's where, where it gets cool, do you think you have to live
• 36:40
  like this every single freaking day?
• 36:42
  Of course not.
• 36:44
  there's wiggle room.
• 36:45
  So some days I may do 12, 12.
• 36:49
  Which is what a lot of people do.
• 36:50
  You know, 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM we're all good.
• 36:53
  Whatever.
• 36:54
  Okay.
• 36:55
  Sometimes I'll do, 10 and 14 some days just turn out to be wild and
• 37:01
  crazy and I end up with a 16 eight just 'cause life happens that way Now.
• 37:07
  He did more experiments you know, very, very well.
• 37:11
  And what he did was over the weekend he decided to just sort of mimic what
• 37:16
  Americans do, which is let it rip.
• 37:19
  Okay?
• 37:20
  So he, he allowed the.
• 37:23
  mice or rats to eat whatever in the hell they want.
• 37:27
  Now, they were no longer restricted to the 16 eight and whatever, and
• 37:31
  they ate whatever they wanted.
• 37:33
  I mean, they had food available 24 7 and sure to form, you know, they
• 37:39
  definitely took 'em up on that.
• 37:41
  But here's what's weird.
• 37:42
  When they looked at the metabolism, all of the metrics, everything from blood glucose
• 37:48
  to insulin levels and all the rest of it.
• 37:51
  When they actually looked at their metrics, the animals who
• 37:56
  had been Monday through Friday, pretty much on the money, right?
• 38:00
  And then let it rip on the weekend.
• 38:03
  It didn't even matter with their weight, body composition
• 38:10
  or with any of their, labs.
• 38:13
  And he was astounded, astounded.
• 38:16
  then he began to put two and two together.
• 38:19
  And here's something that you're gonna love when you do this little
• 38:24
  honoring the the clock thing.
• 38:28
  What happens is guess which Fat Depot is the most sensitive to weight loss?
• 38:33
  Visceral fat.
• 38:35
  That's the Mac daddy.
• 38:36
  That's the one you need to really control because when you have too
• 38:40
  much intraabdominal fat, too much of it, obviously you have some, it's
• 38:45
  normal, but too much of it, man.
• 38:47
  You got diabetes, like you said, cardiovascular disease.
• 38:52
  Cancer's up, You know, it's a bad situation.
• 38:55
  So I love the fact that your body forgives you for your
• 39:00
  little, nuances on the weekend.
• 39:03
  so long as you're right back at it on Monday.
• 39:05
  And most people have found after they've been at this for a while.
• 39:10
  They tend not to deviate too much anymore.
• 39:13
  It's sort of, have you noticed that in, in, in working with people?
• 39:17
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 39:17
  Yeah, so this concept of the 80 20 rule has been around forever, right?
• 39:23
  Pam Peeke, MD: Oh no, not the 80 20 rule.
• 39:26
  Oh, no.
• 39:27
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 39:27
  that's kind of what you're talking about, that 80% of the time you're on task
• 39:33
  and 20% you get to, you know, deviate.
• 39:37
  And so, the body.
• 39:40
  Likes to, I don't wanna say go in a straight line, but it likes to stay
• 39:46
  within certain parameters And so you train it, and when you train it.
• 39:55
  Even within whatever intermittent fasting or time-restricted eating, whatever, even
• 40:02
  calorie restriction, when you set it on a path, it likes to stay on that path.
• 40:10
  Even if you do a little deviation, you drive, you know, off the road.
• 40:17
  If you completely go in the ditch it, you know,
• 40:21
  all
• 40:21
  Pam Peeke, MD: we've been there.
• 40:22
  Trust me.
• 40:24
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 40:24
  You go on a vendor and it's, it's over.
• 40:27
  But if you kind of, it's teleological or we're giving, description to body
• 40:34
  cells as if they have a brain, which we actually know, they kind of do.
• 40:39
  It's amazing a whole nother research area.
• 40:42
  But When we, let the body understand what the expectation
• 40:48
  should be, it stays on track And so that we can deviate like this.
• 40:54
  That's why all these different patterns, two days of fasting, five days of
• 41:01
  eating, or three days of alternate.
• 41:05
  Sort of, kind of sort of fasting and four days of eating more on
• 41:10
  time restriction or whatever.
• 41:13
  You do those things.
• 41:16
  the body will adapt.
• 41:18
  I think in my experience of working with many, many, many people, the
• 41:24
  sort of regularity of every day works best And the two and five often.
• 41:33
  You know, people start out that way and they fall off the wagon.
• 41:37
  It becomes difficult, first of all, to truly fast all
• 41:40
  day and still be functional.
• 41:42
  I mean, unless you're someone who has no other responsibilities.
• 41:47
  To show up for anything.
• 41:49
  Fasting all day is uncomfortable and you don't, perform at your best, And so
• 41:56
  that's why this time restricted eating.
• 42:00
  is so beneficial.
• 42:01
  It puts us in the sweet spot during the hours that we need to be sharp and
• 42:07
  alert And we can feel well fueled to go to exercise, And then it lets us.
• 42:14
  You know, rest our body and recover in the alternate hours.
• 42:18
  And that's why I really, I like that pattern.
• 42:22
  But as you are saying, everyone should find what works for them and
• 42:27
  know that This is not mandatory.
• 42:30
  You can also, if just eating less without time restriction
• 42:36
  works well for you, then do that.
• 42:40
  Pam Peeke, MD: I mean, you know, it, it, you have to experiment And also you.
• 42:45
  Know, let's talk about women, you know, women's needs their nutritional needs.
• 42:50
  They'll change over time.
• 42:53
  so I've gotta tell you the little anecdote with, Dr.
• 42:56
  Nessel.
• 42:57
  it was a really great, interview 'cause she's always been one of
• 43:01
  my, kind of icons in nutrition and she turned out to be a riot.
• 43:05
  She's 89 years
• 43:06
  old.
• 43:08
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 43:08
  you
• 43:08
  know, writing books and emer
• 43:11
  Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah.
• 43:11
  And she, well, she's got her faculty office and You know, and
• 43:15
  you're like, I wanna be like her.
• 43:17
  toward the end of the interview, we were just hanging out and I said, so
• 43:21
  like, how do you eat during the day?
• 43:23
  Like, You know, you're one of the queens of nutrition, people buy all your books
• 43:27
  and you know, we hail you as the one.
• 43:30
  She goes, oh, okay.
• 43:31
  Well let's see now.
• 43:33
  Yeah, I wake up in the morning and I don't like breakfast,
• 43:37
  so I'm like, okay, alright.
• 43:40
  You don't like breakfast?
• 43:41
  She goes, yeah.
• 43:42
  I don't really start feeling like I wanna have anything until about 11, and
• 43:46
  I'm thinking about all the RDS out there falling off their chairs, going, what?
• 43:51
  but, hey, I don't wanna, you know, again, Break your heart in 5,000
• 43:57
  pieces, but she's 89 and you are not.
• 44:01
  And that means that she knows something that You know, and
• 44:04
  she's awfully healthy right now.
• 44:07
  And so why don't you listen on up.
• 44:09
  So what's the lesson here?
• 44:11
  And her telling me that, well, you know, let me finish the rest of the day.
• 44:15
  So I said, oh, so what do you have?
• 44:16
  She goes, you know, probably some cereal.
• 44:21
  I said, really?
• 44:21
  What kind?
• 44:22
  And she goes, oh, multi-grain.
• 44:24
  I like that.
• 44:24
  And might do some multi-grain stuff and every, everyone's falling off
• 44:28
  their chairs, gluten and all those horrible things that are ripping
• 44:32
  your microbiome into shreds.
• 44:35
  And meanwhile she's like, eh, it's worked for years, you know?
• 44:38
  And then I said, well, what do you have the rest of the day?
• 44:41
  I dunno.
• 44:42
  You know, it's like whatever's around and, you know, I just sort of put it together.
• 44:47
  And then, I said, well, when do you finish eating?
• 44:50
  And she says, You know, I eat early.
• 44:53
  notice I said that, and I eat early, you know, like I'm, I'm finished up.
• 44:58
  I no later than, you know, 6, 6 30 and I'm good to go.
• 45:03
  Right?
• 45:04
  so.
• 45:05
  What did we learn from all of this?
• 45:08
  We learned that, there's a lot more wiggle room than you think, number one.
• 45:15
  Number two, being super rigid and strict and, you know, having
• 45:23
  to grind your teeth through it.
• 45:25
  Is not helping you.
• 45:28
  last time I looked, I don't know, food's supposed to be delicious and n
• 45:32
  nourishing and nutritious and enjoyable, You know, all those neat things.
• 45:38
  So what happened to that?
• 45:40
  And, I think that also what's all over TikTok and, you know,
• 45:46
  Instagram and God knows what else.
• 45:48
  YouTube are a bunch of young men especially who are on very rigid
• 45:55
  kind of stuff that, you know, they give it all kinds of and whatever.
• 46:00
  And then they've got, you know, kind of tech bro bodies, they're
• 46:04
  lifting weights, doing their thing.
• 46:05
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 46:05
  They're shooting into themselves
• 46:07
  Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, well, I'm not gonna even go there.
• 46:10
  Um, And so, I think it really influences a lot of people.
• 46:15
  Now let's quickly pivot to something that you and I were
• 46:18
  talking about before the show.
• 46:21
  What is going on with women?
• 46:24
  Now we're talking about health, And we know that if you live a little bit
• 46:28
  more like a cave woman, you know, with nuances around that, your numbers,
• 46:33
  your lab numbers improve beautifully.
• 46:36
  Your visceral fat and your belly fat improves, tremendously.
• 46:41
  We have tons of evidence that shows that your waist.
• 46:44
  Circumference decreases, and of course if you're having enough protein and
• 46:48
  lifting weights, your muscle mass will be optimized as well, but.
• 46:55
  Oh my God.
• 46:56
  So, you flip through the pages of Vogue Magazine and we're
• 47:01
  back to the skinny women again.
• 47:04
  you know, I saw one the other day that had about 14 feet between her thighs.
• 47:08
  she has like, what, where did you come from?
• 47:11
  stick land.
• 47:12
  yet for a while there things had changed.
• 47:15
  What happened there, Sue?
• 47:17
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 47:17
  I think it's the fashion industry, honestly.
• 47:19
  I mean, they need us to buy new stuff.
• 47:23
  Year in and year out.
• 47:25
  And if they change the body type, then the fashion itself changes.
• 47:30
  And so between Hollywood and the fashion industry, and of course social media.
• 47:38
  We are seeing a return to the bad old days of the 1980s.
• 47:44
  Before that, I remember Twiggy, which was the same kind of image,
• 47:50
  but we didn't quite understand.
• 47:51
  I think what we were looking at at that time.
• 47:54
  That was the 1960s.
• 47:56
  And so, by the 1980s, sort of the anorexic body type became
• 48:03
  very popular And the whole.
• 48:06
  Concept of, a muscular woman or a well-defined body for a
• 48:12
  woman just was not in vogue.
• 48:16
  It was neither in vogue, nor was it in Vogue.
• 48:19
  And so we went through such hard work to change that image, to educate
• 48:27
  a whole new generation of women to be comfortable in their skin.
• 48:32
  That who you are does not is not defined by the way your body looks That.
• 48:39
  Health is what matters.
• 48:41
  Taking care of your nutrition, your mental health, your physical
• 48:45
  wellbeing, all of these things are good for, as we talked about, health
• 48:50
  span longevity and to be strong contributors to the world around us.
• 48:56
  And now it is going back.
• 48:59
  It is, we are seeing, skyrocketing levels of cigarette smoking
• 49:04
  in the younger generation,
• 49:06
  Pam Peeke, MD: And for a long time they had given that up too.
• 49:10
  Well, there's another layer to all this And the other layer, it's very interesting
• 49:15
  once these, weight loss, drugs.
• 49:18
  Popped up.
• 49:19
  Now all of a sudden, there was the most fascinating op-ed in the
• 49:23
  Wall Street Journal written by a psychiatrist whose name is Alfred May.
• 49:28
  He might be a psychologist, psychiatrist, one of, I think he's a psychiatrist.
• 49:32
  What he basically said was patient's were coming in saying that they had
• 49:40
  bought into the body positivity thing.
• 49:43
  when they say they bought into it, they did that.
• 49:46
  Publicly, but secretly to themselves, they never bought it.
• 49:50
  They were never happy with their bodies.
• 49:53
  And now that they're on GLP and their bodies are changing in a way That is more
• 49:59
  beneficial in terms of their health and wellbeing, their numbers, the labs And
• 50:04
  the rest of it, they're almost afraid to say anything because there's been this.
• 50:10
  Kind of an ethos out there of it is okay if you're, substantially obese.
• 50:16
  And when according to Dr.
• 50:19
  Alfred, he said that, no, that's not true.
• 50:22
  That's not really true at all.
• 50:24
  That most people really wanted to change for the better.
• 50:27
  They just had no tools to do it.
• 50:29
  And now you have these meds and suddenly the body positivity
• 50:34
  movement, per se, has morphed.
• 50:37
  Now I'm gonna make very clear to everyone what I mean by this.
• 50:43
  Every woman comes in a magnificently awesome shape and size.
• 50:49
  You need to love yourself.
• 50:52
  you need to be able to be proud of who you are, mentally, physically, spiritually.
• 50:58
  You need that.
• 51:00
  That is absolutely foundational.
• 51:03
  But you also have to pay attention to your health.
• 51:08
  And so health is exquisitely foundational.
• 51:11
  You believe whatever you want, but if you have no health.
• 51:14
  Then you got a problem.
• 51:16
  And now you know, if you look at all the new NASH global trends, the global trends
• 51:23
  are health, wellness, and longevity.
• 51:26
  So.
• 51:27
  If you're doing everything you can to be as healthy as you can.
• 51:32
  How about that meditation?
• 51:33
  How about taking, you know, those walks?
• 51:36
  How about connecting with other people?
• 51:38
  How about eating nutritious whole foods and doing something
• 51:41
  radical called cooking?
• 51:43
  how about, addressing your sleep and your stress, all those things.
• 51:48
  That's what I'm talking about.
• 51:49
  And then your body will follow.
• 51:53
  Don't start with the body.
• 51:55
  The body is going to follow when the process of how you live changes
• 52:02
  for the better and all along.
• 52:05
  You still love yourself, you're proud of yourself.
• 52:10
  It's just that you've got to remember to weave in health and wellness throughout.
• 52:19
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 52:19
  Oh, absolutely.
• 52:20
  So the GLP one drug.
• 52:23
  Are an amazing advancement.
• 52:25
  Undeniably people struggling to find health who couldn't do it on their
• 52:32
  own, just eat less and exercise more.
• 52:35
  Right?
• 52:36
  Just like we say, just say no to drugs.
• 52:39
  Those things, platitudes are not helpful.
• 52:42
  And so the GLP one drugs I think are in an early phase, but they are.
• 52:50
  Helpful for the proper individuals.
• 52:53
  But even within that, as you're saying, even when you have the medical support
• 53:00
  or the pharmaceutical support, you still need to understand how to adjust
• 53:06
  your lifestyle so that whether or not you stay on those drugs forever.
• 53:12
  You are supporting health, And so I talk about weight loss is not a goal.
• 53:20
  Weight loss is an outcome of changing all the things that
• 53:25
  you have talked about and giving yourself a pat on the back each day.
• 53:29
  For going out for a walk, that's your goal.
• 53:33
  Being a little more physical, active, getting up off the couch, doing
• 53:37
  something and planning and carrying that through on a daily basis.
• 53:41
  Setting up a time when you have a creative, expression during
• 53:46
  your day, having your spiritual, opportunities, making sure that you
• 53:51
  have strong relationships in your life.
• 53:54
  Doing.
• 53:56
  You know, making the world a better place through volunteer work or whatever that
• 54:01
  may be, and eating well and hydrating well, each one of those on a daily basis
• 54:08
  or a weekly basis, Those are goals that
• 54:12
  Pam Peeke, MD: And that's exactly how we're going to end this,
• 54:15
  this fantastic episode with you.
• 54:18
  What a beautiful way to be able to summarize all that.
• 54:22
  Remembering, that both of us said the same thing and you said it so
• 54:26
  gloriously, and That is any level of excess fat in your body That is reduced.
• 54:33
  It was never the goal, it's an outcome because the real goal was to clean
• 54:39
  up all of those other elements to start with, And so I think that That
• 54:44
  is a powerful message coming from Dr.
• 54:47
  Susan Kleiner learned more about her incredible work at her website, Dr.
• 54:53
  Kleiner, and That is DRS.
• 54:58
  K-L-E-I-N-E r.com
• 55:02
  because she's so damn smart.
• 55:04
  And This is why, you know, we keep grabbing you again and again to
• 55:09
  help elucidate some of these crazy controversies and, issues that women
• 55:15
  really wanna get to the bottom of.
• 55:17
  And we did that today with our little cave woman, episode here.
• 55:22
  so again.
• 55:23
  Thank you, Sue, for being on the Herb Podcast.
• 55:27
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 55:27
  My.
• 55:27
  Or Thank you, Dr.
• 55:28
  Pam.
• 55:29
  Pam Peeke, MD: And I wanna thank my sponsors, SORAY Vitamins,
• 55:33
  minerals and Herbs, rooted in nature And the new her Life stages.
• 55:39
  Products that help a woman, oh, they've got her back from
• 55:43
  menstruation all the way through.
• 55:45
  Post menopause.
• 55:46
  Scope it all out at soray, S-O-L-A-R-A y.com.
• 55:53
  And now take a moment to leave us a review.
• 55:55
  'cause um, we just sit around waiting to hear from you.
• 55:58
  this has been a production.
• 56:00
  Of podcast health and you know, yeah, yeah.
• 56:04
  Your time is limited in this world, but the things you can do
• 56:08
  at that time are certainly not.
• 56:10
  So you choose to get up off your feminine behind and get
• 56:15
  out there and seize the day.
• 56:17
  Carp a DM girlfriends.
• 56:19
  Thanks for listening.