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The Injury That Keeps Coming Back: What Body Asymmetry May Be Telling You · The Endurance Athlete Journey

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome everyone to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Coach Justin.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here with Coach Katie.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a special guest today.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have Craig Depperschmidt, who is a doctoral of physical therapy.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to be talking about body asymmetries.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: And when when I heard this topic, I automatically assumed, oh, we're talking about muscular imbalance.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about, you know, oh, my left leg is longer than my right leg.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so now my run gate is all is all different.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think this topic goes way deeper than just what is the obvious.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems pretty relevant when we start talking to uh endurance athletes.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know as a coach, the strength piece has gotten so much attention lately that I think that it's starting to bring more of the underlying issues to the surface.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, what brings about these muscular imbalances as we start to get into the weight room to become more durable and more sustainable in our in our sport?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the things that we also have to consider as we map out our plan to become stronger and fitter?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, Craig, I'm really, really interested to hear what you got to say about this.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm gonna turn it over to you and tell us a little bit about yourself.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: I would I would like to know, Craig, go ahead, how you got into running, first of all, because I feel like everybody has a story about kind of how they got into it, and then maybe how you even got in to be the th physical therapist.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: But let's start with like your how you got into the sport of running.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_04: I know you've done some triathlons and stuff too, so I'd love to hear a little bit about what you've done.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first, thanks for having me.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is a treat to talk to both of you.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I've known Katie Cassane for years, almost almost all the way back to our CU days.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So this is awesome to be here.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Did we over did we overlap at well almost by a year?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I graduated in from CU in 2006.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Weren't you weren't you were you oh five?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: We must have done I was oh six.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_04: We just didn't really know each know each other somehow.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: But you were were you in kinesiology as well?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah is that your so we've all had this.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's funny.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we go way back, but my origins, I'm from uh Colorado, so I grew up in in Lubelin, Colorado, and I I grew up doing all the sports.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was especially into baseball.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Baseball was my big sport.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um in middle school, middle school Craig was gonna be a professional baseball player, and that was my career trajectory until until about seventh grade, when um seventh grade I I broke my nose playing soccer, ironically.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh after I broke my nose, I uh had a hard time managing airflow in my nose.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: For for a year or two, I couldn't breathe well out of my nose.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I knew I didn't like it at all.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I had to get breathe right strips and nasal dilators, and and I really struggled with it.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that was uh seventh grade that happened.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: My eighth grade year of baseball, uh I'll take it back, seventh grade of baseball, uh our team was really good.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: We won the championships and uh I thought I was pretty good.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was playing shortstop in third base and pitching and uh hitting third or fourth in the lineup and uh again was doing really pretty well for a seventh grader.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: But then in eighth grade, my my play really declined rapidly.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I went from not being able to field the ball, I couldn't throw it very straight, I couldn't uh couldn't pitch anymore.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I had to move to the eighth or ninth in the lineup because I couldn't hit the ball that well.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I went from batting almost like 500 out of the seventh grader to like barely hitting the ball at all.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so despite obsessively playing baseball as an eighth grader, I I my play kept declining.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I eventually dropped out of baseball in high school.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until a couple years later that I realized I needed I needed glasses at the time.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So my inability to manage airflow well in my nose shaped my cranial bones and and changed how the muscles were pulling on the the orbits of my eye.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I got astigmatism and myopia, and I needed glasses at the time, but I didn't know it because there's a gradual decline.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so after I couldn't play baseball, I tried all the sports.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: In high school, I think I played six or seven sports.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was in football, I did tennis, I was a diver, I was a swimmer.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh eventually I I was mediocre at all of them.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I went and um I went out for cross-country.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I found I was pretty good at the warmup run for all these sports.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went out for a track and cross-country and in um and had some success there.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and specifically, I saw that the the more I did it, the better I got.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that, especially as in that age, and the harder I worked at something, the better I got, which was very different than baseball at the time.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I got pretty into running.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I talked in the running summit that we did.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I I read Running with the Buffaloes about Adam Goucher, who is Kerry Goucher's uh husband now, and that turned me on to CU.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to go to CU and be Adam Goucher and run with Katie Cassane at CU.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so I went to CU Boulder and I kept trying to run more and more, but I kept getting injured.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: I kept getting knee pain and shin pain and foot issues, and uh it eventually led to to my profession of physical therapy because I kept seeing physical therapists for my uh again, shin pain, foot pain were my big things that I couldn't run like I wanted to to be able to run at CU.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got into a triathlon because I was cross-running so much with swimming and biking, uh, but but really running it was my passion and and still is.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until I went to physical therapy school in northern Arizona I was still trying to run at a high level, and uh I I couldn't because I kept getting shit and foot pain.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And to the point that I had foot surgery as an 18-year-old to address some things that um in hindsight I I probably wouldn't if I were to go back, I would change some things, so I wouldn't get that.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it really took until I went through physical therapy school, uh it took a couple years into being a physical therapist, that once I was able to manage airflow of my nose better and get my eyes to work better, that my foot and my shin pain went away.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so early on in my career, I got pretty excited about interdisciplinary integration.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So even to this day, I work with a lot of dentists in town and optometrists to get people to perform running and trathlons at a high level, uh, but but with different disciplines.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta we gotta get people to kind of appreciate different systems of their body to be able to move forward in space in a healthy way.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a bit of my story, and then my I guess my my athletic story is that um again, running's always been my passion, still is.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um but again, I got into trathlon because I couldn't run like I wanted to, and so I was on the trathlon team at CU and and since then I've done a handful of full distance Ironmans.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've been to Kona, I was just at Boston in April, I was in Chicago last year.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been able to do a lot of just this cool athletic endeavors that I would never think I could have done 20 years ago uh because of my injuries that I had, but uh, because I was able to manage airflow better and my nose and my thorax and and my eyes work a little bit better, that I can do these crazy endurance feats that uh that I'm still pretty excited about.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my story up until now.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_04: That's interesting you mentioned that those things specifically, because you wouldn't even like eyesight, I've never thought about that connection between because I I just uh I'm just uh uh avoiding going to the optometrist for quite a while myself because my I have astigmatism, I'm pretty sure of some eye.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_04: So now I'm got it just caught me thinking again, like, oh, I mean, I don't know if it would make me faster, but it might be make me run better.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm like, wow, maybe there is there is like more connection between all these other things and maybe um the way we move in space and uh than maybe most people realize.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_04: And that's kind of why I thought I would it would be really interesting to talk to you because I don't think people are thinking about that so much.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Katie, that's the feature of uh I'm a physical therapist, so it's the I I think the future of my profession is much more interdisciplinary focused.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think with AI synthesizing materials so rapidly and quickly that people connecting the dots to the different systems of their body of yeah, how does my ability to to manage airflow in my cranium affect my toes?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And how does your eyes working well together affect your neck tension and back tension?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that's the future.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where um, yeah, we'll get into maybe what I do with the Postural Restoration Institute, but uh that's what I really believe the future is.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And again, speaking as a physical therapist to to help society and and our community, we we need to be uh kind of appreciating how the different body systems work well together to to reduce pain and and pathology, but also to improve performance because I'm still I'm an athlete.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: I identify as an athlete, I work with a lot of athletes, and so but the performance of things gets me excited.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that is that is cool.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: I oh so I I think it would be helpful if you over like maybe um did a little overview of what isn't like an asymmetry, like how does that connect?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, like what we're talking about, but I think people are kind of thinking asymmetry, they're thinking, is it yeah, like um muscular imbalance, or is maybe one leg or something's off on one side and it's all just related to I don't know, muscles or you know, but maybe there's way more to it than that.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: So I would like you to maybe like overview what is this, what does that even mean?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: And how can we kind of think about it, I guess, uh in a way that's a little bit more nuanced.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, yeah.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, humans are humans are very different left and right.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Humans, we we all have two.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: We have we have a left and a right, and it starts at the brain.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: You your left brain is very different than the right brain.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're the left side of your brain, which controls the right half of your body, is the main motor control center of the body.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why 85 to 93 percent of the human population is right-handed.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And those who are right-handed are those who are left-handed are really emidextrous.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: They go back and forth a lot more than right-handed people.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Of significance, you have a big heavy heart in your left chest wall and a dense, heavy liver in your right abdominal wall.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so just the weight of those two organs make humans want to weight the right side more than their left side.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: We want to just be biased over the right leg.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the average human is three to five pounds heavier on the right side than they are the left side.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you were to cut a human in half, a live human, they're heavier on that right side.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: So just the weight of the organs, the the biasedness of our body, we want to be weighted to the right.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Of a big deal is our hemidiaphragm or our respiratory diaphragm.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: You have two respiratory diaphragms, a right and a left.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Your right hemidiaphragm is two-thirds bigger, three times thicker than your left diaphragm, and it attaches lower on your lumbar spine.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if anyone out there is taking anatomy, they'll know that the liver sits underneath the right diaphragm, and you have a heart sitting on top of your left hemidiaphragm.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the net effect of that is that your bigger, stronger right diaphragm, every breath you take, it holds the lumbar spine and the sacrum to the right.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And your left hemidiaphragm, because it's flatter, it has a heart sitting on top of it, it essentially pushes the lumbar spine and sacrum to the right with every breath you take.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you have a brain, a heart, a liver, a weight difference right and left, and a respiratory diaphragm that's essentially pulling your lumbar, spine, and sacrum to the right with every breath you take and every step you make.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: So the analogy that I often use in the uh is that if you imagine if you go into a grocery store, you have a shopping cart that uh like a pretty new shopping cart, it's pretty pretty easy to push.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: The wheels aren't all gunked up with anything, and there's nothing in the cart.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can push the cart straight down the aisle and it's pretty easy to do.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take that much work, you don't have to work at managing it from going right and left.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: When you get to the end of the aisle, if you turn to the left, it's pretty easy to turn left around the aisle.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you go straight down the aisle again, it's easy to turn right around the aisle.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you imagine if you go to the water aisle and you get a big jug of water, like a five-gallon jug of water, and you put it on the bottom right side of your shopping cart, like that flat tray in the in the shopping cart.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now you have a shopping cart that's just slightly biased to the right.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: When you push it down the aisle, it wants to veer to the right.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And your body and brain need it needs a strategy to rotate it back to the left.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we're trying to rotate it back to the left as it's trying to go to the right.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get to the end of the aisle, you have to work at it differently if you turn left around the aisle versus if you turn to the right.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, all humans, we have this shopping cart body that is biased, it's trying to veer to the right, and we're trying to, with our neuromuscular system, trying to rotate back to the left.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's how we're managing our asymmetry in a nutshell.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And as it relates to endurance athletes, the more I mean, the more we're moving different left and right, the more it's magnified if we're training for something like a marathon.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if your if your cart tires are out of alignment, it probably won't wear that bad if you just go back and forth or through the neighborhood twice a week or go to the grocery store twice a week.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: But if you drive a hundred miles every other day in that car, it's gonna wear quicker and more significantly.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be harder on the tires, it's gonna be more stress on the chassis.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if our if our imbalances are becoming too imbalanced, that's when it becomes an issue with as a release endurance athlete.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I think it's especially important because we're asking so much of our bodies to do, whether it's running or trash lawn, the the repetitive demands is so high that our our imbalances become magnified because of the the demands we're trying to do.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_04: So you're kind of saying that the there's like that natural, almost normal asymmetry.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_04: So there's so like the fact that like one side of our body is heavier, like the right side, I think you said, is like heavier, and we're trying to kind of counterbalance that, that's all kind of a normal uh asymmetry where our body's just kind of normally trying to counterbalance that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_04: But are you saying like if there's something more than that, like a uh something that that's uh mag magnified a little bit in some way, that that's kind of when we run into problems, or because it seems like some of this is kind of normal, but there's yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's natural human asymmetries, but if it if something like in our lifestyle or our history makes it so those imbalances are excessive, that's when it leads to injuries.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be like myself playing baseball, which I would always plant one side and rotate to the left to throw a ball.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you have repetitive occupational demands that are the same all the time, that's gonna magnify your asymmetries.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you're just if if you're working out so much, if you're running 50 mile weeks and you're taking so many breaths because of that, every breath you take, there's more of an imbalance, there's more of a pull the lumbar spine to the right that you have to counterbalance by rotating back to the left.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really, yeah, there's natural human asymmetries and in the endurance community will see them just magnified because we're doing so many steps and so many breaths.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_04: So repetitive, like that repetitive movement, because you're doing that every time where we're bound to kind of counterbalancing that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_04: That's correct.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's like the need to think about.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the more you're loading a symmetric, uh the more you're loading an asymmetrical structure symmetrically, the more asymmetrical it's gonna get.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's why Justin, you know, strength training is all the rage, but it's not, I don't think many endurance athletes are getting injured because they're weak.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: They're getting they're getting injured because of imbalances that are a foundation of we already have a foundation of imbalance, and those imbalances are getting magnified because we're asking equal demands of our legs to go forward in space when we run, or we load ourselves with a barbell, and that's gonna make those imbalances more imbalanced because we're loading it symmetrically.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_04: And that's interesting to think about too.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we can get into maybe things people can do to help um with the asymmetry part, or like the I don't know, like the like, okay, well, what do we do about it?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: But um I don't know.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: Can you give like examples of because it seems like this is pretty common for most endurance athletes?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I know, I know even for myself, I'm always always struggling with my right, actually, my right side.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's like that's the leg, that's the side, that always gives me trouble.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: My left side is perfectly happy.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so it seems like yeah, I always have this hamstring thing that like it's never so bad that I have to be I'm like extremely injured.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: I just feel like I'm always babying that side a little bit more with the pharygon or the stretching.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's always the side that's tight.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: My ankle's always bug bugging me on that side.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: And so I don't know.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like when I'm just like, okay, it's kind of working, like it's not getting any worse.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I guess I'm trying to like I guess every athlete or many athletes have that.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: Is it pretty common?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: Like, is this something that's you would say most most of us who are running a lot like will deal with uh or like how common?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you know what I'm saying.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: All humans are different.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're all asymmetrical, and we have different ways to manage it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So because your brain is different and your history is different than than Justin, and you had different parents and different genetics, your inherent asymmetries are the same, but your your brain's ability to manage that is different.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, to have I mean, that's a big indicator.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you have an like a runner specifically, if they have like a pain or one side that's always been their issue side for a long time, and that's a dead giveaway that you're just not having equal demands on both sides of your body.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, underlying whatever's going on with your right leg is this imbalanced shopping card that's probably either asking too much of that right leg to push you forward or just the like the the mechanics of that leg is slightly off because of how you're managing your your body to move forward in space.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: I just I feel like I'm I'm I'm like, I probably should deal with this, but I just keep uh you know, I do the strength training and I feel like I'm doing a lot of things right.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, maybe there's more to explore there.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely Katie, if I I mean if you're just keep loading that more and more, then it's gonna get more pronounced uh theoretically.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know exactly what's going on, but if you keep loading it over time, it's gonna get more magnified because you're just you're asking the same thing from that that leg over time.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think so far I've just been kind of lucky just doing what it does.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_04: But um, I don't know.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_04: Did you have any questions, Justin, or anything off that?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I've been uh taken over the conversation.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think the one question that that comes to my mind is uh if we have this uh inherent built-in asymmetry already, how is it that we should should think about reoccurring or chronic injuries?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is is there something that we should be considering it's like how do I say this?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a threshold that we have to be concerned about an asymmetry?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something where it says, okay, you know, this this isn't that big of a deal or this is a big deal?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: So uh how how do you how do you make that decision because we're inherently asymmetric?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I mean, how do you how do you counterbalance this?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like I'm gonna start lifting, you know, 10 pound dumbbells with my left and only five dump five pound dumbbells with my right because my right is is heavier than the other, so I need to increase the strength on my left side and we're to counterbalance.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just that doesn't seem reasonable.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So how should how should we process that how should we process this to think about it's like, okay, is is this a concern or is this or is it not?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question, Justin, because it is if we're all asymmetrical, like how we can't flip our organs on the inside.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we know if if if it's an issue?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the big take home is uh appreciating that you're different left and right.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that there are specific techniques that we do within the clinic to rebalance it and and test things out to see if it's an issue.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of athletes they're better at managing their asymmetries than others.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And those are athletes that are they're super durable and they're they're performing at a high level.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the elite athletes that I see, the professional runners, the ones that have had a lot like a longevity of the career and a durability, they they move very well.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: They move very symmetrically.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're really balancing their imbalances well.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: The runners, the athletes that are very injury prone, they they can't tolerate a whole lot of miles.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the ones when we test them on the table, they're gonna be, they're not managing their imbalances very well.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're moving very different on the table.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: They have a lot of those strength imbalances, almost the shopping cart's getting out of control.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we we have the same asymmetries, but different ways of managing that in the we have different tests and techniques in the clinic to test it out to see how much of an issue it is.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: But but I do think as a like as a future, a lot of runners know they should do like a strength and mobility routine, a SAM routine.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: That uh like Justin was saying, that a lot of runners and traphletes know we should be strength training, which is really important.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: We should have like inhibitory activities in our routine.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: We should be inhibiting calf muscles and back muscles and hip flexors, these muscles that tend to overwork.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: But then on top of all that, I really think we need a program that balances our imbalances.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: And especially in like the teenage crowd that in your teens and early 20s, the earlier you can get after your imbalances, the more impactful it can be over a lifetime.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I I eventually see a routine where you're doing things a little bit different.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're orienting your body to the left and rotating back to the right instead of always orienting to the right, rotating to the left.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do some things that and that rebalance the body as part of that Sam routine.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: That that's what I would like to see someday.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm just like trying I I guess that's where you'll probably bring in the postural rest restoration piece, because I I'm assuming that's kind of part of that a little.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Bit, but I'm like because I mean I'm thinking so just an example here, like for the strength training, something that I'm like thinking about this, right?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I know I have probably one leg's stronger than the other when I do a squat.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's if I load it heavy enough, I'm always favoring one leg over the other.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like I can see it if I take a video there's a like a dip, a dip that and I'm like trying really hard not to let that happen.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's usually when it's loaded pretty heavy.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I'll do like one legged, I'll do like Bulgarian split squats or like one-legged deadlifts and to try to kind of balance that out, doing it like non obviously not like a symmetrical where it's loaded both sides where you're but it's like one side versus the other to try to but is that is that kind of then not really enough to sort of work on those strengths, Nani just like doing it that way, and you're saying maybe there's something else where you're moving, like practicing how you're moving in space differently.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like I'm trying to grasp because I'm a very visual person, so I'm trying to grasp what you're trying to say because I can't picture it in my head.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Katie, that's uh that's I think as a like in general, for if we're talking to the endurance, the running, swimming, cycling community here.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you choose to do a strength program, really prioritize single-leg single arm activity.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So don't load the body symmetrically, because we have when you're running, you're on one leg at a time.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: When they're biking, you want to make sure there's uh equal strength on both sides.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's different demands left and right.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's sort of the low-hanging fruit to help help be aware of your imbalances is prioritize single leg, single arm activity and be aware of how do you feel on one leg versus the other?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Does one side feel stronger?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are you more confident?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel more centered?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel your foot differently on one side versus the other?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: You feel um do you feel like you can breathe better when you're on one leg versus the other?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Those those things are are important.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: The more nuanced is uh I suppose if you can imagine the the statue of uh Michelangelo's David, the famous statue in Italy, where he's he's positioned on his right leg and he's contraposto rotating back to the left.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, or if you can imagine someone if you're waiting in line and you just and you put your right foot back and you weight your your body over your right leg and you just hang out over there on on your right hip, that's that's sort of a a way to kind of picture how humans are biased.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Our pelvis, our hips really want to be over to the right, and we want to rotate back to the left.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where we're stuck as uh Michelangelo's David.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that we're good at rotating to the left as we're biased to the right.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: So the one of the famous stories is the reason why we run anti-clockwise on the track is well, the Greeks and the Roman Romans know that we ran faster that way.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: So back in the ancient days, they did track anti-clockwise around the track.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: But with the modern Olympics in 1896, they started, they were going clockwise.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And from 1896 to about 1913, they did races both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And there's enough complaints that of people saying it doesn't feel right to run clockwise around the track.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't feel right to us.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: That in 1913, the like I forget who it is, like the International Association of Track and Field, the international governing body at the time, just designated okay, every time you're on the track, you're going counterclockwise because that is the more natural thing that people feel.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because we like to be planted to the right and rotate to the left.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, Katie, that's where it gets a little bit more nuanced from a like a movement specialist, would dive into that quite a bit.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but but that's one way to look at it.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, so I I teach for the Postoral Restoration Institute, which is an institute that educates movement professionals, physical therapists, occupational therapists, uh PTAs, coaches, athletic trainers, uh, and really anyone who wants to take a course and learn more about the body.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really centered around our asymmetries.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's centered around appreciating how we're so different left and right.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's classes on uh the pelvis and the rib cage and airflow.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's classes about the neck, about your bite, about your visual field and vestibular system, there's classes about your cranium, there's classes about impingement and instability.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a number of courses that they offer uh really centered around our asymmetry.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's again, we're as a physical therapist, that's our future, is really appreciating how humans are different left and right and having uh eventually protocols that are different left and right after surgery or even before surgery to prevent.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Can we appreciate how we're different left and right?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's this inherent asymmetry that often leads to a lot of issues.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: That's kind of interesting.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, like I think so.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of people are just maybe not aware of things, you know what I mean?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like they're just not aware of like their body a lot, you know, in space and how it moves.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: Cause and I think maybe this would be like an interesting thing for people to do.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_04: It sounds like maybe even just having someone stand on their left side and kind of like like how like even how are they imbalanced or how do they feel and then breathing and even taking a moment to like take some deep breaths and then and then maybe stand on I don't know, I this would be something you would advise, but I'm like just even pay attention to this, and then they stand on their right side and the same thing and just kind of is it more, do they feel more like strong on one side versus the other?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: And are they breathing funny or just even visual, like is it visually different, you know, when they're on some one side versus the other?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: I I don't know.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: I would feel like that would be maybe an interesting thing for people who are listening to maybe to you, just to kind of see what we're talking about a little bit.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can talk that through because you're right.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of this is the only the body you're in right now is the only body your brain has ever known.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so what you do most commonly is what is normal for that brain.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that's part of like a neurological discussion of the importance of experiencing new things and how brains are somewhat reluctant to do that.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: But if, yeah, if those listening, if you want to try this, if if everyone if not everyone, but I guess if you're listening, it's kind of weird to do it this way.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're so if you're listening to this, if you stand up, put your right foot behind your left foot and shift your weight back into your right heel.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So when you shift back and you look down, your pant zipper should be going to 130 or 2 o'clock.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you should feel most of the weight in your right heel.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And just pause, breathe there a little bit, remember what that feels like, and then put your left foot back and shift your left hip back.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: So your pant zipper goes all the way to 10 o'clock and see if that feels different.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Does the does your body weight feel different?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Does it feel tighter to go back into the left?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel heavier or lighter on that side compared to your right side?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: So just let that sit a little bit, go back and forth, and then maybe go back to your right leg.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Go back to your right heel, shift your right hip back, pan zipper to two o'clock, and then turn your shoulders back to 12 o'clock and take some deep breaths.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Take some deep breaths and just feel how easy it is to breathe in that position with your pan zipper to the right and your shoulders to to straight.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: So pan zipper to two o'clock, shoulders to twelve o'clock, deep breaths.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now go to the other leg.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Put your left foot back, so your pant zipper's at 10 o'clock, turn your shoulders to 12 o'clock, and take some deep breaths.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: And most people are gonna feel that's quite a bit tighter because that's going against the grain of their that's the anti-David of Michelangelo.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's when your pant zipper's going left, shoulders are going to the right, that's against the grain of the body.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where uh most people will feel different left and right doing that.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And again, every breath you take, every step you make, there's more of a the David's uh Michelangelo's David influence to your body.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you're trying to go straight in space, there's that twist.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's not probably a big deal if you run 10 miles a week, but a bigger and bigger deal if you're 50 miles a week, and then you add swimming and biking on top of that, then that that rotary influence of that asymmetry becomes a bigger difference and could often lead to injuries.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm like trying to pick, I'm like, I'm gonna have to go back and after our discussion.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm trying to envision myself like where am I how I'm standing and my pant zippers and my shoulders and everything else.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I can do that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so importantly, and the default is shifting back into your right heel, pant zipper to the right, shoulders back to the left, take some deep breaths, and just be in tune with how easy it is to breathe, how heavy you feel in that right heel, or just how your foot feels different on the ground, versus when you put your left foot back, shift your weight back into your left heel, turn your pant zipper to 10 o'clock, and then they're keep it at 10 o'clock as your shoulders go back to 12 o'clock and take some deep breaths.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And again, most people feel pretty different left and right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_04: So if someone's like, wow, this is really different, like something's I don't know, or they they they combine that, plus they have some sort of like stubborn injury that always seems to crop up when they're, you know, get to that 50 miles a week or whatever the mileage is, you know.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'm assuming like obviously you would probably recommend maybe it would be a good idea to go see a physical therapist.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but how like like if someone comes in to work with you or they're they're wanting to first of all, maybe see if it is an asymmet asymmetry like an asymmetry or something.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um I don't know, like what do they what would they expect?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like how do they what do you how do you work with people to figure this out?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like I don't know, there's probably really different for because I'm I'm guessing there's probably a lot of different things that could be wrong with someone, you know, so it's probably not a cookie cutter sort of situation, but I'm just curious, like, do you have them do a series of these types of um different movements so you can kind of s visually see how they're moving?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like, do you kind of watch how they're moving in space?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like how would you work with someone?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, first we do we we assess them and there's a lot of objective assessments, so we're not relying completely on our eyes um or our palpatory skills, because that's that's why research is not very accurate.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of objective assessments we can do to to educate people and to figure out figure out their imbalances and how much of an imbalance is it is it um a factor in what they come in for as an injury.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yeah, there's a number of tests that we do within the clinic space, uh, and it's pretty obvious.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like most people that come in, we will point out just how they're moving different left and right and what that means for that particular injury.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like um the question often comes up like, how do I know as a runner specifically, how do I know if these imbalances are driving my issue?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the the there's the there's common things.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: One is like from the ground up, is it do your do your feet look different?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a bunion on one side?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a like a hammer chaw on one side, or do you do you always lose that same toenail on that one foot?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big indicator that you're moving different and your feet are absorbing that rotary stress.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So do your feet look different?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do they sound different when you run on the treadmill?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: When you go for a walk, can you hear your the sound of your feet?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Are are they different?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big indicator.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you have shin splints, shin splints for sure, that's a splint of of rotary stress in your body, and you're you're not rotating well somewhere in your body, so you're absorbing that torque in your shins.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So shin splints is a big red flag of that.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a shopping cart issue, it's an imbalance issue.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Knee pain, I'd say knee pain, especially on one or both sides.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if your pelvis is going to the right and your feet are going straight, the knees torque and they're gonna create an IT dan pain or uh or a pedal femoral pain or whatever you want to label it, knee pain.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you get hip impingement, hip impingement is all the rage, especially out in Colorado here.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people with hip impingement, it's it's a it's a shopping cart issue.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you get hips that click and clump when you do your ab exercise, you you lift your legs and it clunks and clicks, or if you have a snapping hip when you uh deviate to one side or when you run, that's a you're not managing your imbalances very well.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'd submit SI pain and back pain is a is a big indicator of you're you're just not managing that asymmetry well and and it needs to be better balanced.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you like, if you look different, do you have a rib flare?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Most a lot of humans have left anterior rib flares.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Their ribs stick up a little bit more on their left side, and if they bend over, they're gonna have a little more of what's called a right posterior rib pump.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's a very common finding.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you look in the mirror, does one shoulder look different?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you always drop that one shoulder down?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do your collarbones look different lame?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big red flag.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, a lot of if you have a crossbite, if you feel your teeth different left and right, if you would when you smile, does your jaw deviate one way or the other?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're dealing with a lot of head pain and neck neck issues, or even like a shoulder impingement as you run or as you bite.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you if your shoulder feels pretty tight afterwards, then that's probably an indicator that you're not managing that your your imbalances very well.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: They need to be more balanced.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Your imbalances need to be more balanced.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: But those are like that's a pretty general it can like you said, Katie, it can manifest in a lot of different ways.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's not really a cookie cutter approach because it's that's a fun part of being a physical therapist.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what I do is we get to play detective all day long.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: We can really work with that person.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: What how are they managing their imbalances exactly?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to tie in their their past history.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: What do they do as as a teenager and uh where are their levels at now for their athletic endeavors?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what parents did they choose?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, did they choose parents that gave them a lot of ligamentous laxity or or a tight ligamentous structure?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a big part of it.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then how are they integrating their life stress within their movement patterns?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many layers to it that makes it uh really exciting to do to do what I do.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a lot of people.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: I'm making like it.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: I know I want to move, I know I at some point I do want to move into the brain piece because I I keep thinking like there's a probably a big mind body connection to it as well.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I even think about people who have who I work with, like a nutrition, but also have a lot of trauma.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um there's oftentimes uh like they oftentimes have something um physical happening to them, whether they have some sort of autoimmune disease or there's something kind of more physical manifesting, you know, out if they've have a lot of stress or trauma.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: And so I feel like I wonder if that's maybe maybe go down that road a little bit, but that that's got me kind of thinking thinking a lot.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know um if you have any thoughts or anything.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_04: I've d uh Justin Justin hasn't talked much, I feel like we've taken over.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_04: What are you?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've been sitting I've been sitting in the back seat listening to mom and dad talk in the front seat.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how does that land of just uh I guess hearing that the body's different?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: If I again with your athletic background and all the athletes you coach, does that I don't know, does it sound bizarre?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I you know, I try to be I don't want any of this to c come across as like too out there.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is just anatomy and biomechanics for talking about.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so I'm just curious since just how that lands for you, Justin.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know I've known Katie in the past and she um but yeah, this is the first time we've met.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've even worked with you.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_04: I've had some I've had a few issues of my own that I think before.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think I have like I've had a hip issue, and then I I think one time when I was after my pregnancy, I was running a lot and I was pushing a stroller, which probably wasn't helpful maybe for uh asymmetries.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, because you're it's but I was having some foot issues, so I've been I've there's been a few times I've visited with you, but yeah, I don't know.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm curious what your thoughts are just.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: How does that land, Justin?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I do.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I see it quite a bit in some of the athletes that I work with.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, especially with with swimmers when we're talking about the mobility of the shoulders and and the in the thoracic rotation that they that they're trying to achieve in the water.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um they just they end up swimming flat because they just don't have that rotation.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so they they come to me and they're like, I'm trying to get faster, I'm trying to get faster, but you know, I can't figure out like what's going on.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is really kind of enlightening because it's not just mechanical breakdown, is what we would automatically start to that's where we would go, first of all, uh, I think as as coaches, we would just say, okay, I want to look at your form.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that it goes it goes one step before that as well, because it sounds to me that these asymmetries lead to mechanical failure.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that, you know, or we're just we just don't have the fitness and so our form breaks down, or we don't have the strength, so our form breaks down.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like there's another piece to the puzzle that we may not be considering.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I guess the question that I've got for you, I think the question that I've got for you is that how do we determine if this is a mechanical failure that's not been derived from an asymmetry or if there's an asymmetry that we have to figure out how to counterbalance uh in order to have proper movement in space.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, that's an awesome question, Justin.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you summarize it perfectly.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a predominant there's before that mechanical breakdown, there's a predominant movement pattern that um that creates the mechanical breakdown.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I yeah, I think at this point in my career, I I think it's um it's it's more the ladder that you said, Justin, it's that it it's usually there's an imbalance that needs to be counterbalanced.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a purely mechanical breakdown, that's more I'm thinking like nutrition and pacing.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if you got your nutrition dialed in, you you got enough calories, you got enough sodium, um and and you paste it well, like that's an it that the more the former.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: But if they keep if there's a breakdown that doesn't you don't feel like is involved with that, it's more of a a biomechanical, like anatomy neurological breakdown of trying to manage uh like a a movement, then that's the the lack of counterbalance to your imbalances.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think most athletes need something in their program to to manage their specific imbalances that have a predominance of all the stuff we just talked about, this bias to the right, rotating back to the left.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: So but then Katie as well, the like after pregnancy and we have two young kids, so I'm around a lot of young par a lot of uh new parents, I should say, young uh young parents and new moms.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, if your abdominal wall is really stretched out for the third trimester and um and and there could be some trauma or not trauma associated with that during delivery, then that that really magnifies the imbalances.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or as a male, if they have some kind of abdominal surgery that that really can magnify that.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then, Katie, if you add on pushing this symmetrical stroller, I'm run I'm I'm putting a lot of miles with the stroller on now with our young one, and uh now we're we're symmetrically loading this asymmetrical body in two ways by pushing a stroller and by trying to run forward down the bike path and and go in straight in space.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's gonna I need to be extra mindful of that.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we'll see a lot of these within certain demographics, like like moms, uh like people who always maybe just and breathes the same way in the water.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: They always always breathe to the right or breathe to the left.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna magnify some of their imbalances.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm thinking like I'm I'm really now thinking about it.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like a lot of my recent, like I really was not super injury prone.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: And and then I had my son, and I had like a I mean, I think the worst I'd ever had was maybe some shin splints in high school and then like an IT band syndrome that I had uh in in grad school.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then and and that was it.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then I got pregnant and it's like all of a sudden I was I was felt like I was a stranger in my own body.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_04: I was like some my body doesn't feel like it did.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_04: I feel different in this body now.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so that I had all sorts of things.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_04: I think I had that foot thing and then some hip impingement issues, and then I'm still dealing with this right side issue.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't know, you know, that's probably a whole topic on its own is that the changes that happen after pregnancy.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_04: But now that I'm thinking about it and like that, I'm wondering if there is something that was like magnified or some change structurally or something that happened in my pregnancy that maybe caused this.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's kind of gotten better.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's um, I'm not really suffering with quite so many issues as I was, but it's still kind of there.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, it just makes me wonder if that may be the catalyst for this a little bit.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_04: Because I felt like I was invincible.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like pretty, pretty much.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_04: I was really lucky with that with injuries before.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_04: So just kind of got me thinking.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you have a a an answer for that or a thought, but it does get me.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Magnified is the right word.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: It can be magnified after a pregnancy or an appendix surgery or anything that disrupts that abdominal wall.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it uh Katie, I I don't want to give anything to the audience, but it's like you're gifted with a a pretty tight connective tissue structure, and a lot of elite athletes are elite runners, are like most most professional runners can't really touch their toes.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: They don't they're not comfortable sitting cross-legged, they're not uh they're not winning any like gumby yoga tournaments because they need this tight connected strip.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're not they they need a tight connective tissue structure to tolerate the demands of other miles.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so Katie, not hopefully this is not uh this is okay to let, but like you're gifted with that, which is awesome.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: But then uh yeah, after pregnancy, now you have some lapsity from the hormone changes, but also again, importantly, that abdominal wall needs to re needs to be retrained to so that your imbalances don't become excessive.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's again kind of the cool thing.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: If if you have a lot of ligamentous laxity because of the parents you chose, then you're gonna you're probably not gonna be as durable or you're gonna be more influenced by your this this asymmetry that we're talking about.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_04: So you're saying if someone's like really loose, like they can easily touch certain ligaments or more like loose or and the verse is like tight, you know.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_04: So that's kind of what you're saying.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they just have uh they they don't have these these tight structures connecting their bones together as well as you do, so they they need to rely heavily on their neuromuscular system to tolerate the miles.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: And just in general, like most runners specifically, the elite runners, the ones that can tolerate eighty, ninety, hundred mile weeks for multiple years, they they're not they're pretty tight and they need to be.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: They need a you need a tight sport suspension to tolerate that, not a not a loosey-goosey uh suspension to tolerate the demands of that repetition.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_04: I've never had a thought about that.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's in that way.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there's something that uh that I'm kind of curious about.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned it earlier in the episode where you were talking about the the strength component and focusing on uh single appendage movements, which I completely agree.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Though the but the one thing that I want your insight on is is there a natural progression that an athlete should uh uh implement in order to get to get to single leg movements?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because some of the things that I find working with athletes is that uh they're new to strength training.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so with those particular athletes, I don't give single appendage movements because I want to just introduce them to time under tension.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll give them just you know fixed plane movements.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're using machines and you know, just so that I can uh load up their muscles, load up the tendons, and get them used to that tolerance.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Once they develop a little bit more strength that way, then they progress to single leg, single arm, single appendage kind of movements because they have better control.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: They're getting better muscular engagement.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then it sounds to me like once they get that built, then they can move to something that's a little bit more like pliometric, where it's just a control of movement in space, which is super important for endurance athletes being able to control our bodies in space.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that that is a logical and and responsible progression for let's say somebody who's new and they're getting into sports, or they have chronic issues that will may never be resolved.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so now it's just a management kind of thing.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that kind of the path that you would recommend for somebody to follow?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I like that, Justin.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think from a like a peer strength and conditioning uh approach, that how you laid it out is perfect.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: The I guess what I'm referencing more of just the background of injury prevention and recovering from injury, it's more to make a body more durable, let's prioritize those single leg activities.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: But how you outlined it from if there's no issues going on, they're they're moving pretty well, they're healthy, they don't have niggles, they're they're doing the swim bike and running at a level that they like to, then what you outlined was perfect.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: If now if they can do that for 10 more years and they're talking about, okay, how do I improve my longevity within the sport and how do I become a uh a super grandpa or grandma, then then it's let's do single leg activity, let's appreciate these imbalances and and have a designated time of your day that you're trying to you're rebalancing your imbalances.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:15
  unknown: All right.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like the big thing is maybe um if people are thinking, okay, well, maybe I do have some asymmetries, I really do feel like they probably would benefit from working with someone like yourself, Craig.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_04: I think because it's I think really hard, even thinking with myself.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I know Justin's, you know, we both have a background, a lot, uh a pretty long background in sports and uh like strength training.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I I feel like I'm pretty self-aware of of my body.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_04: But I feel like I'm kind of like maybe there is something that I'm just not able to visualize.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe if I took a video of myself, I but then I'm like, well then if I saw something or I was able to identify for sure, like I said, maybe there's something imbalanced, I wouldn't really know what to do about it other than other than what I'm already doing, which is like the one, you know, the um bilateral movements.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, or is that right?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like the single leg movements.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um I don't like I I don't know.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, well, I don't know.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I'm thinking it would probably behoove somebody to at least maybe seek out a PT to be able to identify that or be able to have because it seems to me like you would have very specific uh movements.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I've even seen some of those pictures, like when you had the the summit of people with like balloons, they were blowing up.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I I don't know, like I'm like, I feel like there'd be very something very specific you would have them do to kind of correct that.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: That would not be something intuitively somebody who doesn't have that sort of training would be able to figure out.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_04: So if if someone's listening and they're like, yeah, I'm really feeling like this, I they're identifying with this and they're having something happening that they do your little test that you described and they feel like they're having something, uh a common injury or something that keeps coming up or keeps hindering their ability to move forward with their training.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I must assume, yeah, they probably it'd probably be the best to what would you say their next steps would be?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_04: Would they go to the, would you, you know, maybe find a local physical therapist, or do you think like what is it about like the postural restoration certified piece of it that you think would maybe benefit them even more?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just curious because some people might be like, well, why don't I just go to the, you know?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the if if the audience is out there, if you again if you feel different left and right, if you look different left and right, if you had any of those the aches and pains that we outlined earlier, from their, yeah, your toes to your crossbite to your your visual field, or uh again, a shoulder looks different left and right.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um or if your power numbers are different on the bike.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you're if you have pedals and uh it's showing different numbers, then yeah, the the easiest thing is go to the the postural restoration institute.com, or so PRI, postural restoration institute.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can go online, there's a ton of information online.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can read about you can read about all the research, you can read about different sports, volleyball, running, cycling.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's articles on that.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can go find a provider, so someone who's done the training in it, which is essentially just they're diving deeper into the anatomy and biomechanics and neurology of asymmetry and left and right, which is again, I think the future of my profession.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you can go find a provider, you can go find a physical therapist or chiropractor or coach even uh online all around the world that is trained in that.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: So just go find someone in your area and and set up a time to meet with them and they'll do they'll objectively assess you and and tell you what you need to need to do.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not around anyone, there's a lot of us offer online telehealth visits, uh, or again, just a deep dive in information.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's so much information on the Postural Restoration Institute website um because they know AI is reading the whole internet, so they want a lot of good information that's not behind a paywall.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there's webinars, there's podcasts, there's all kinds of good stuff that um that you can dive into and spend many weekends reading and listening and watching.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_04: Hours, hours, hours, days, years.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_04: That's cool that they uh open up that information, you know, to so that, you know, even coaches or like Justin and myself, or I have I don't know, I feel like man, there's already so many things I want to do.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um I have yeah, so limited time, but I would love maybe to learn a little bit more.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um I don't know.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_04: I do want to I I know we're kind of hitting on time a little bit.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_04: I do want to mention the bot the brain piece a little more.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have any more questions about the body body asymmetry, Justin?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_04: Or do you mind if we I do.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: I just I just got one.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a curiosity of mine.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times endurance athletes enter into the sport uh because they're looking for something just wild to do, something drastic.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: They've had something that that's happened to them and they're and they're looking to do something extreme.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this is probably some to a certain extent, probably Katie works uh with this particular scenario as well.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the question that I've got for you is obesity uh is just uh it's an epidemic, uh essentially.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: So my question to you is are these asymmetries uh is there science behind it to where has obesity uh amplified the asymmetries that we see within our body, which is going to play a role when these individuals uh start to lose weight, whether it's through some kind of medical procedure that's helped them lose the weight.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: So now they're getting in to endurance sports because now they have this new body.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I'm speaking from experience from from my journey.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: Are these asymmetries more pronounced in individuals that have had a weight problem in the past?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: And or or is is there really no no discernible difference between uh where weight's not a factor?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question, Justin.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, I don't know the the research off the top of my head for that, and I don't know if there is, but I would I would say that that is the I get a the two different well maybe three scenarios.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: One, no matter your size, if you're a human, you you're different left and right.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a brain, you're different left and right.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um no matter how much mass you might be carrying.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think if one is carrying more mass, the asymmetrics are magnified because of the mass is higher.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that, if if the weight is around our pelvis and our abdominal or thoracic cavity, then it the effect is like a like a large pregnancy.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you lose that for however you lose it, then it's it's similar to going through a third trimester with a baby and you gotta retrain your abdominal wall, your pelvic musculature, you gotta you gotta rebalance the imbalance that were probably magnified because the abdominal wall was extended and the rib cage was hyperinflated because of the mass underneath it.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I yeah, I do think um Yeah, if if you lost the weight, it's gonna be similar to being being a new mom in that we gotta retrain some things with your ribcage and your pelvis and your abdominal wall so that you're moving more a little more symmetrically.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's interesting.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_04: I never I've never like thought about so yeah, it's my main thing is if you I feel like if somebody's a lot of weight they've lost, or some kind of abdominal surgery, or maybe any kind of surgery really.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um you know, maybe they would want to think about this a little bit too.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_04: Is that affected their body and the way they move and maybe they need some help there?
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_04: That's interesting.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's fascinating.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_04: Well, let's move on.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_04: I do want to move on to the I do.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's very helpful.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so one of the things that really made me think during your summit, because I never made this connection, was the differences between right and left brain.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_04: You talked about the, you know, what the right brain does, what the left brain, it the strengths of each tride.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but one thing that I found interesting was that connection between that and maybe how we move.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_04: But more interesting to me was just how that might impact even our enjoyment, the joy or even the um what we get out of the sport itself in a way.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_04: That's at least what I got out of it.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_04: Was um I feel like when I'm way more on my right side of my brain during training, instead of so focused on all the metrics and parameters that maybe my left side wants to focus on, I do feel like I get a lot more enjoyment out of the running.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the Westernary brains are very different.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, again, I mean you have two.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: You got a left side and a right side, and you have a you have a left brain and a right brain.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's way more different and nuanced than I think a lot of us, you know, might think one side of the brain is for art, one is for math or something like that.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's way more in depth than that.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of this, this is well researched too.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: If people get excited about this, go get the book, The Master and His Emissary by Ian McGillchrist.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's sort of the gold standard.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Ian has dedicated his life to left and right brain research.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very dense read, it's a very scientific read.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but what I did for the talk that KG's alluding to is I really synthesized the material of how it relates to running, because it's a running summit.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: But then I also as it relates to uh the knowledge that body is different left and right.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: So again, the left half of your brain controls the right half of your body, the right brain controls the left half of your body.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if you had a stroke or trauma to your left brain, your right side is physically affected for the most part, and vice versa.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: If your right brain has a stroke or affected, your left side body is affected.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, since we're biased to the right already because of our asymmetry we already talked about, like the more stimulated your left brain is, the more imbalanced your shopping cart is over time.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: The more um the more imbalanced the body becomes physically, and then over time it's it's a lack of resilience to to stress, whether that's uh swim, bike, and running or life stress or just age and stress.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so in general, and what Ian the Gilchrist will say is that as a society, as a modern culture, we need to really stimulate right brain activity.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the more we simulate right brain activity, the more balanced our bodies become physically, which is the cool thing, is that uh the the more that right brain is lit up, the different we move below the brain.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'll I'll kind of summarize the like the top five thing that I outlined in the running talk a couple of weeks ago is your left brain is very narrow and focused minded.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever you're concentrated on a task, you're thinking about one thing, but your left brain is lit up.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas your right brain is more more broad and vigilant, it's it's focused on the periphery.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the common analogy that's used is if you imagine a bird looking for some seed in the grass in a park, the left brain is lit up to focus on the exact seed and color that it needs, whereas the right brain is on to take in the whole grass, the whole park, the the whole landscape.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so without the left brain, you would starve, and without the right brain, you'd become someone else's lunch.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you need those working together.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: The left brain is also it's focused on uh it has an extrinsic focus, it's focused on tools uh and and um and machines and the inamina objects, whereas the right brain is focused on the environment and living things.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so it it's more has a it an intrinsic focus to send something internally that's from your right brain.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're using a tool, no matter what hand you're using, if it's your right hand or left hand, your left brain is more lit up because you're using a tool.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: But your right brain is lit up if you miss it and you jam the hammer on like if you're using a hammer on a nail and you jam it funny, now your right brain is lit up because of how that feels on the inside.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how they're working together from a like a mechanical standpoint.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the left brain is all about control.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's where dopamine is, it's where addiction is is in your left brain.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a stroke in your left brain or trauma to your left brain, whatever you're addicted to goes away.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: So whether that's running or alcohol, it's gonna go way down, if not away, because the dopamine is primarily a left brain activity.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: The right brain is more about uh connection, it's seeking to understand.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's about empathy.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: Empathy is in the right brain.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's about letting go.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like the the 12 steps of AA, it's all about it's letting it go, having a mindfulness practice, and building relationships.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's all stimulating the brain activity to stop your addicted left brain all the time.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then the left brain is very binary.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's black or white, it's yes or no.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: It wants to be certain about something.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: The more you're searching certain about something, the more you know it's right to do X, Y, Z, the more your left brain is dominating your process.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right brain is more about ambiguity, it's more about uh the experiences, more about curiosity.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: The right brain is is open to new experiences and open to other opinions.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: It aims to understand.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then the final thing that I really want to emphasize at the running summit was left brain is all about familiarity and habits.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: The more you do the same thing, the more habitual you become at whatever it is in life, the more the left brain is lit up.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the right side, when you experience something new, that's a right brain activity.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: Things that are experienced new is the right brain first, and then it's communicating to the left brain of what should be habitual from this.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: The analogy there is if you're learning to drive a car when you're 16, it's a very right brain dominant activity.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're in a new position in the car, you're in that front left side of the car, uh you're taking in the whole environment, you're learning what all the buttons and the blinkers do.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you gotta manage cars on left and right around you.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: But after you've done it for 25 years, like driving is a pretty left-brain activity at this point in my life.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: When I drive mostly to work and back, I've done that a thousand, thousands of times.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: It can it's so automatic.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not thinking about it much.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's left brain activity.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: So take home is that the more you're doing all those left brain activities, which you can elaborate on, or we can elaborate on it, the the more right biased your body becomes.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: And over time, there's an art there's a case to be to be made that you're becoming less resilient physically because of your your your mental habits and how you proceed and how you feel through the world.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense so far?
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_04: This is just the the what I got from that when it comes to like training, like when it comes to like running specifically, is like left brain would be like you're looking at your HRV, you're looking at your your paces that you're running, you're like analyzing everything and you know, you're paying all this attention to that, and you're running down the road, but you're not really appreciating it.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe like right brain would be like the brain that would appreciate the visual, like what you're seeing, and like, oh, there's pretty flowers, and oh, look at this, look at the cool animals.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe if you're so on to this left side that you're so focused on the training and the the getting that done, and so focused on that part of it, that maybe you're kind of missing that right side a little bit.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Nailed it, Katie.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: So so if you're left brain dominant running is you're you're focused on the target, the pace you're doing.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I gotta run eight minute miles for six miles, no matter how I feel.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's left brain.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas right brain is all about the experience.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're going out like I might run nine minute miles, I might run six minute miles, whatever I'm feeling today, that's what's gonna be right.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's right brain.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: The left brain views body as a tool or machine to be automized.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's the HRP, that's the maxing, the human maxing, the looks maxing, that's left brain.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the right brain, it looks into the body as a living organism to be appreciated and to be felt.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: The the left brain is a is usually really rigid, it's heavily patterned within its gait and its movement.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are the runners who I can only run on a bike path, or I can only run on this side of the road, I can't run on the on the other side of the road, I can't run on a trail, that's too variable.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas right brain is the runner that just kind of bounces from the bike path to the dirt, uh, hops over a fence, it gets on the trails, it goes uphills, goes downhills, it's very fluid and adaptable.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: Left left hemisphere running is those are the runners who really ignore their their body signs.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like if their knee starts to hurt at mile four, they just keep going to mile five because Coach Justin told them to.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very left brain dominant style.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas a right brain is like, well, my Achilles trips around three miles, so I'm gonna stop at two miles because that's what that's what feels right to me right now.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because right brain is very interoceptive.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: Your your sense of yourself is right brain.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then the the source of joy within running is left brain running, it's very extrinsic.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: You you get your joy from running from hitting that three-hour marathon or achieving a certain amount of miles and then putting it on Strava, so you get your likes.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's left brain hugely.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas right brain, it's it's an intrinsic joy of running.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's you're you're running because you just it's autoletic running.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: You the the reward is running, and it's what you're doing it for.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very brain-dominant running style.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, the the more you can stimulate your right brain, whether it's encouraged by a physical therapist myself or Ian the Gilchrist, the the neuroscience expert, over time, as a trend over time, you're gonna make your body more durable to do the things we want to do.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that was like again, a brief summary of a 600-page hyperdense scientific book, and and then how I synthesize that to make it sense to runners.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: Part of it's uh, you know, inherent uh the the the importance of novelty to a human brain is so important.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's a new, if you always run one way around your name, then start running the other way or explore something new.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: The importance of novelty to the brain to age well and to be resilient over time is is wildly important.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so I'd encourage the audience the more you're doing the same of something, really challenge yourself to experience new things.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's inherently right wing.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you take on a a new challenge, so Cal Newport will talk about um embrace cognitive struggle.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: So to dive into these books that are a hard and and try to uh to learn totally new things, that cognitive struggle is inherently right wing because it's new.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that that right brain stimulus is gonna help you move better as a factor over time.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: But that's uh again, I I'm pretty the the neuroscience fired things is is super fascinating.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's another I think it's a fear of my profession, just like interdisciplinary integration, working with different disciplines to help someone out, like appreciating how we're filtering the world and our mental processes and how that's manifesting into injury and how one can be more durable as an athlete or as a human.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's um it's something that is becoming understood, but but we have a ways to get.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I find this all fascinating.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_04: I found it there's so many there's so many things I want to talk about with the brain piece, but because I I I have a fascination with that connection with brain and body, and um I know like just thinking about my own experiences uh as an athlete, I think when I do tend to have flare-ups of things.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_04: It probably is when I'm way too focused on my training and make and making the metrics and things like that work.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_04: And then that seems to be when I start to get like prob more problems.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm, you know, that's what kind of got me thinking about this connection more and how even when I'm training for something, is there a way to pull in the right brain more?
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think inherently I'm more right brain of a right brain person, but um but sometimes I get really stuck in that left brain.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_04: So anyway, that's what was fascinating to me about that talk.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_04: I I thought the body, the asymmetry was also fascinating, but the brain piece really was um but I wanted to make sure he talked about the body piece because I think most people with their injuries would probably resonate more with that.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um well one thing came to me with that is all all humans were all left brain dominant.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: The left brain is currently dominant and doesn't think it needs the right brain.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: The right brain is it experiences the new things and then communicates to the left brain, but then the left brain wants to block the right brain out.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the the analogy that I didn't have time to get to you in the running summit is your the left brain is your social media algorithm.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: The the social media algorithm wants you to stay the Instagram, the Facebook wants you to not leave Facebook and Instagram.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: It wants you to suff you in and it's it's very it's surrounded by things that make you feel you're right all the time.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: The left brain always thinks it's correct, it's right, and it doesn't feel like it needs the right brain.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: The the social media algorithms don't want you to leave that algorithm because it's a threat to their attention and and they want your attention.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so all humans are left brain dominant.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's about can you can you stimulate your right brain enough to help you balance your imbalances out?
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it it and that's where it really comes down to.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what Ian McGillchrist's big thing is.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this was written uh 2009, I believe.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: So he he wrote it as a as a way, as almost it's all it's a bunch of neuroscience the first half, and then the second half is how this affects like cultures and communities, of having a a modern society that's becoming more and more left brain dominant because of our modern society.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: So get into just cool uh like a study on on culture and communities as well.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: All language is in your left side.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't realize we were all more left brain dominant.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_04: I guess I thought there was certain people that were more of one versus the other, but yeah, interesting.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_04: Any thoughts, Justin?
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think I think my left brain is a massive bully and just and and just and shuts up the right brain because I I don't even think the right brain is there because I'm so left brained.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so one thing that I've that I found was interesting while you were talking, I was trying to like run through this thing in my head, is that we're we're by default, we're right side, right side bias, I guess.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right side bias.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: So when we stimulate the left side of our brain, i.e.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: we're worried about pace, we're worried about power, swim splits, hitting the metrics, then it amplifies that asymmetry and that biasness.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the one thing that I find interesting is that if we were to listen to music during training sessions that elicit emotion an emotional response as a way to stimulate the right side of the brain in order to counterbalance the left side bias, is that is that a reasonable conclusion?
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: Am I thinking about that right?
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: I love the question, Justin.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, good questions.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the um no, so the right brain, you you're correct in that.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: The more that left brain is stimulated, which controls the right half of the body, the more biased we're getting to the right.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: The left brain is the center of language.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so because the right brain is so focused on the environment and nature, when you go for a run, you don't want anything in your ears.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_00: You want to run and take in the chaotic background of the of nature, of the birds singing, the dogs barking, the ambulance sirens going, because it's unpredictable, it's inherently novel, and it doesn't have a predictable beat.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you listen to words, if you listen to people talk like on a podcast, that's a very left brain activity.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have a predictable beat of a song, that's left brain.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why part of encouraging right brain activity is go for your run, go for your bike rides with none in the in the ears.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta just take in the wide world and the smells and the sounds and how the daylight is changing now.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: The sun's in a different angle of the sky.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_00: The sky in Colorado here, it's more blue.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you gotta take in the wind and and how September five, four or five days ago, and it feels different.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like to be in tune with that is right brain.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_04: That's fascinating.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_04: That's not what I wanted to hear, by the way, but Yeah, I'm guilty of listening to podcasts while I run, and I know I shouldn't do that all the time.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_04: I don't do that all the time, but I do sometimes or listening to like books and things like that.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_04: But um, today I did that donkey run, and I'm like, that was very right-brained to me because it was like you're with the animal and you're paying attention to what they're doing.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_04: So it's not just you, plus, there's all it was like Redstone Canyon, so there's all these beautiful red, you know, stones.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_04: I'm looking at the rocks and taking it all in, and and I'm and and I feel as though I just am in in a different kind of mood.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like it's like an interesting like the aftermath of that experience as compared to other days when I just go on my usual run and doing the podcast or something in the afternoon, I just feel a little bit more like low-key, like less, I don't know, like okay, life is good, a little happier.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you're more parasympathetic.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, your autonomic nervous system is more balanced because you stimulated the right brain, is what you're feeling.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: How how did your leg feel?
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if I feel like I felt it today too much.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_04: Other than when I got out of the car because it was stiff a little bit, you know, but that happens, I just kind of stiffens up.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's probably a hamstring issue.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it yeah, I mean, but while I was doing it, I think I was so enthralled with everything else going on around me and paying attention to this animal that I was, you know, trying to work with that I didn't even think about it really, to be honest.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_04: So that I mean, I've done it now twice, but I do think it's kind of some bringing back to that novelty of like trying something a little bit different.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like, yeah, I w there was no what going with any sort of pace because this animal was going to either run or it wasn't going to, and it doesn't run the whole time.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_04: So if I had some sort of goal set, like that I had to do an eight-minute mile, there was none of that happening.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it was like just going based off Wrigley's Wrigley's the name of the the donkey was his pace, you know.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_04: So I I and I really do, I I really do enjoy that.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_04: So I think yeah, I've I would argue to people, then that's what I kind of got out of that talk you did was I need to find more times when I am training for something to really bring in that right brain side a little bit more.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I think I think a lot of people benefit from that.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_04: So that's why I wanted you to talk about it.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And importantly, to live as a trend over time.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: So like you're yeah, your hamstring wouldn't feel magical, magically better.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people do feel better and they have that focus acutely, but it's a it's can you live more in your right brain over the next 30 years?
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Then you're gonna have a better running career and a and honestly you're gonna be just a more well-rounded individual mentally and physically.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't, Justin, if you don't let that left brain become such a bully.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's I that's the art aging well, is one of the art, is is don't let that left brain be such such a bully because you're human in a modern society and it's it's hard not to let it take over.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_04: That's an interesting thing to think about.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, to do something like dancing that puts me out of my comfort zone.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_04: But uh maybe I was thinking playing the pancho or something.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's something to really get people to think about um that side of running and how our brain is connected with it.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, um thank you.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think this was this was a really fascinating, uh, fascinating talk.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it's a really interesting conversation because one of the things that I just did today, and I just pulled the trigger on like one of my big races for 2027 today, and it's a it's a little bit of a different race, and uh I'm actually considering a different training methodology for it.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so this conversation really has kind of solidified like the approach that I was that I was thinking about taking.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like I got confirmation, and it's just like, yes, this is you know, let's try something different, let's try something new, let's take a different approach.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think it's just really kind of interesting to to understand on how left-brained I am.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's really kind of it's really kind of of awakening and how it's always the right side of my body that's jacked up.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes complete sense now.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_04: So I was thinking to myself, I was thinking to myself when I heard that.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_04: I was thinking about myself, and then I also was thinking about you, Justin, because I know you very well.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I think I think Justin might benefit from this conversation about the brain.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been pushing my athletes to to try and stop chasing paces and chasing powers and more getting into more of the of the RPE methodology.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that that's this seems to be a valid approach to engage the right side of the brain more.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: That am I thinking about that right?
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the more you're in tune with with how you feel on the inside, the that's a right brain is yeah, yeah, the right brain, it's um again, interoceptive sense, how you sense yourself is filtered by the right brain.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is that the right brain is very engaged by community and groups.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um the more you're involved with a community, the more you're doing a swim, your your masters in the morning, or uh joining a rug group, or just hanging out with people and not on screens.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like it has to be in person.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Your right brain is very stimulated.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's um uh just another thing to consider with your new training is yeah, it's maybe totally new stimulus physically, but also do it with people.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh go do it with friends, and then uh go to a totally different restaurant afterwards, after your training session, and uh talk about deep stuff that's meaningful and that that provokes emotion and uh all those things.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like living a life like that's gonna help stimulate the brain on the right side.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Everything everything that I'm doing now seems to be moving me in the right direction.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I sponsor a local tri-club, and so you know, I'm being more social.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm training with a couple guys on on our Saturday long rides, and so I'm trying to stop being such a lone wolf, which I've been doing for like 10 years now.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I prefer to train by myself, and so now I'm trying, I'm trying to wake up, I'm trying to wake up the right side a little bit and tell them to you know grow pair and stop getting pushed around by the left side.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_03: Shut the left brain up.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, shut shut that left brain up.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_03: So well, thank you so much, Craig.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my pleasure.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_01: I had fun.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this has been uh uh we don't know what episode is this is yet because uh we're we're pushing this forward into September.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_01: But this has been the Endurance Athlete Journey podcast, where we've talked with Craig Depperschmidt, uh a doctor of of physical therapy, where we've talked about asymmetry in both the body and the brain and and how they work together and how they they fight each other sometimes.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_01: But uh this has been a fascinating conversation.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if this has resonated with you, I hope that you'll continue uh consider sharing the episode with with someone or uh just leave a review and a like and subscribe.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Those are greatly appreciated.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you, Craig, for for coming on with us today.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's greatly appreciated, and thank you so much for a fascinating conversation.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So all right, guys, so that's it for us.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_01: This has been Coach Justin, and I'm here with Coach Katie, and this has been the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast with Craig, and we will see you all again next time.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, bye-bye.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: That wraps up today's episode of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Endurance sports have a way of teaching us patience, humility, and resilience.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Lessons that carry far beyond the workout.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Progress in endurance sports doesn't come from shortcuts, it comes from consistency, discipline, and doing the work when it's not glamorous.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Wherever you are on your endurance journey, keep trusting the process and honoring the work you put in each day.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: If today's episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone to help on their endurance journey.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to join the conversation on our social sites to help build and foster a community where we all learn and support one another.
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back with more stories and insights from Coach Justin and Katie.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, visit the podcast website at the endurance athlete journey.buzzsprout.com for more episodes from the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Have questions or comments about the podcast?
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Feel free to send us an email at the endurance athlete journey at gmail.com.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_01: For all things coaching, visit Coach Katie at fuel the number two run dot com and coach Justin at tabula rasteracing.com.
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Again, thank you for listening to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And remember to find joy in the journey.