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Sean Sheffler-Collins on Winning the Fight for HCP Attention · Expertly Said

• Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Sean Scheffler-Collins, Director of Global Scientific Communication and Content at Estella's Pharma. Sean is a global medical affairs professional with 14 plus years of medical communications experience, supporting cross-functional collaboration across matrix teams to develop and implement integrated strategic medical communications plans for omni-channel scientific content, supporting medical strategy across numerous therapeutic areas across the product life cycle. Prior to working in medical communications, did research on the molecular mechanisms of synapse formation as the brain develops and obtained a PhD in neuroscience from the University of Pennsylvania. Sean, welcome to the show. Sean Sheffler-Collins: ⁓ Thanks for having me. Kristen Sweeney: Thank you. That was a real tongue twister for me. Molecular mechanisms of synapse formation. I made it through. Really happy to be here with you. So I'd like to kind of get into your origin story a little bit. You've obviously got background in scientific research. Was that sort of your first love and coms came later? Can you take us back as far as you'd like? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Thank you. ⁓ yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, I mean, so I think, let's see. So I, it wasn't really a straight line at all. But so I went to college thinking I wanted to do psychology and that I wanted to, you know, help help people be a therapist, something like that. And then I had to take some biology classes as part of my first year in college. And from there, I started to learn about hard science, molecular biology, and I got excited about that. And I ended up getting a summer internship at the National Institute of Health doing research. And that sort of, I guess, sparked my interest in research. I think I also I guess I've always been interested in sort of understanding like how the brain works and what makes us different. differences between us. I always think about like I have a brother and I always think about, know, we have almost the same genes and yet we're very different people. And I really want to sort of dig in on why that is and how we get there. And that, that I guess led me into research. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. sure. Sean Sheffler-Collins: And yeah, I think I in so I was I was interested in a research career up until I was in grad school and then I sort of ⁓ decided that the academic track was not necessarily for me. ⁓ And I think I sort of came back to the thing that I really liked doing when I was younger, which was was reading and writing and the idea of sort of being a being a writer in some form was really appealing. And that sort of helped me, know, it was a job I could do. It required very specialized skills, which I had, and there were a lot less people, I guess, interested in it than being a professor. So that sort of helped me, helped me find my way into medical communications. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I love your point of like, most writers are voracious readers, right? It's just how we sort of like understand the world and ⁓ through sort of osmosis, like just absorb what it means to kind of have style and tell stories. So that's, that's awesome. ⁓ Sean Sheffler-Collins: Okay. Yeah, and I think that's also like a hard skill for scientists, I guess, is to tell a story, right? We're very inclined to having a lot of data and, you know, trying to fit as much in as possible. you know, I think hopefully one of my skills is to sort of step back a little bit and think about, you know, how do we make a story out of this? How can it be interesting to someone and also sort of satisfying that you get? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: from point A to point B through the course of reading or presentation, something like that. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. was communications and life sciences just a natural extension of that interest in neuroscience and kind of your academic career of wanting to stick with science? Or did you entertain other ideas under other industries? Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: I'm... No, I did want to stick with science. think I really enjoy that scientific, learning new things. ⁓ I think I you know, I sort of get bored easily and I like doing different things. So that was sort of a way to stay on top of it and keep myself interested and engaged. So that was a good fit. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Although, I will say I didn't really know exactly what I was getting into when I started. So that was definitely, you know, I learned a lot about what the field was. I don't think I really had an idea getting in of what I was getting into. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, what was that transition like for you? What was maybe surprising? Because you obviously had writing skills, so what was surprising about a communications role specifically? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I think a couple things. mean, one big difference was that, you know, as a student or researcher, you know, I sort of did everything like I would, I would do experiments, I would make slides, I would write a manuscript, do all different things. And then as I moved into medical communications, it became a lot more focused. So there was, you know, there was someone who edited and someone who made great graphics and you know I had to really focus on the words themselves and you know little bit of how it's presented but really you know focusing on the words and so that was a that was a big difference to sort of learn to stay in my lane a little bit more and also to sort of I think it you know improve improve my craft as well as I as I got into it but I Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, that's such an interesting sort of, I don't know if it's attention. I think I've experienced that as attention, to be honest, like as a owner of a small boutique agency, having to make decisions fairly with some regularity about how big our sort of slice of the pie will be and where, in what ways do we want to grow and expand? Do we want to be hyper-niche and say, look, we're not Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: we're not going to entertain an image or we focus only on long form content. We won't touch your LinkedIn or no, we will. Like we are thinking about, you know, your thought leadership more holistically. So we want to cover multiple touch points and ⁓ it's there are many different philosophies on it. And I think more recently we're seeing that a bit of a swing with AI. Of course, we got about five minutes in before it came up. ⁓ Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: that idea of like an expansion almost back to generalization is something I'm seeing more broadly, or at least conversation about it of, now you have assistance, so you should be able to not be so niche and kind of like do more and be able to like handle more pieces of the process. So it's really, it's been an interesting thing to kind of watch evolve over my career and ⁓ to make decisions about it too of where we wanna be. narrow and focused and where we want to kind of be more expansive and open to something new. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, no, agree. it's yeah, I agree. It's sort of moving back to yeah, you have you have more tools, but also, it's a lot more work for for one person. the having specialists is is also sort of less work. But it is it is what it is. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I know you mentioned like ⁓ not liking to get bored. There's also that tension of, you know, if your remit is sort of really deep work, like I find that I like a blend of deep work and lighter. things because my brain can only operate in one of those modes for so long. And so sometimes I think it can, you know, if you get too specialized, you sort of run up against that's not a sustainable job to do full time is like work that's that intense. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah, Noah agreed. yeah, and there have been times in my career where I was like just sitting by myself writing a manuscript for days and days and days and I knew that like that was, that was, that was not for me. I, I need to sort of shake it up, do, do some different things. ⁓ Even though, even though I enjoy writing, I still, yeah, want to, want to do some other, other stuff. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk about some of those things. Can you ⁓ give me a little bit of the landscape of your current role and audiences you're trying to reach right now? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, so I mean, so my current role is in medical affairs. the primary audience are ⁓ physicians, health care providers, is the key audience. ⁓ In terms of what we do, there's the scientific publications, then there's ⁓ we create content for the MSL, the medical science liaisons who interacts. with physicians and then we also create educational content as well as content when the physicians ask the pharmaceutical company questions. I guess they're a couple different types. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Great. ⁓ Yeah, any, what's the specific types of physicians you're targeting right now? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, so right now I work in a hematology oncology. it's sort of rare type of leukemia I'm working on now. So it's very sort of niche ⁓ population. ⁓ So that's, yeah, it's different. mean, it depends. I've had the experience to work on a lot of different types of ⁓ pharmaceuticals and... at different stages. it's, yeah, it's interesting to sort of get in and, you know, have a much more specialized audience right now than I've had at other times. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. What do you see, I know we're gonna talk a little bit about attention to just kind of preview our one big idea shortly, but I'm curious what you see like working well in the landscape in terms of reaching HCPs more generally right now. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think one of the key things that I try a lot to do is that, they're very busy and they're very smart and they don't necessarily want me to tell them what to think. you know, one of the things that I'm trying to do is to, they know there's specific type of information they want to get from the pharmaceutical company and I want to be able to provide them with that information, that data. And then I think they prefer to sort of internalize it on their own. They don't, they're able to draw their own conclusions. They don't necessarily want ours. So it's a balance. It's a balance of not saying, you you can say, look how great this is, but then they say, show me the data. They don't want to know, you know. Kristen Sweeney: That's interesting. Mm-hmm. Sean Sheffler-Collins: what my take on it is, or the company's take on it. They want to come to their own conclusion. Kristen Sweeney: This makes me think about like, ⁓ I'll say a model that I think is becoming, if not already, kind of outdated. But this idea of, know, back in the day, you'd write this top of funnel content, like blog posts, right? And it would be like the ones that are sort of meant to be neutral and they're not selling your company, but ⁓ maybe, you know, what started, what often would kind of creep in is people be like, well, can we maybe like pitch this so that the obvious answer, the obvious solution is our company. And you've got to be really careful with that because like, of course you should be able to promote yourself and put your own messaging out there. It's, you know, exponentially more important to do that with integrity, of course, when you're talking about scientific data, but at the same time you can. kind of ⁓ actually diminish your own credibility if you push a certain narrative too hard. And like you said, people are smart. ⁓ We're all very online now. We are sort of used to some of the old tricks that maybe were effective before. And again, I don't say tricks in a sort of deceitful way, but I think that more than ever, you've got to be really mindful of Maybe less is more, like you said, in terms of kind of layering your opinion or your narrative on top of the data. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Right, yeah, and I think, yeah, mean, everyone is sort of a much savvier consumer than we used to be. And they understand like, where's this information coming from, right? And, you know, that we all have to evaluate it for ourselves. So I think that's important to not, as you said, of overstep and ruin our credibility because, you know, ultimately, when I'm providing the information, you know, I... I want a physician to think about, you know, what would this mean for my patients, right? Could this help me treat patients more effectively? I guess is my goal working on this medical side. I'm trying to say, hey, look, we have this interesting data, but you know, they're going to filter through their own lens anyway. So I would rather, you know, Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Hopefully try and be more objective and, you know, meet them where they're at instead of trying to tell them what to do ultimately. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, do too much, too much persuasion. Absolutely. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about how you, how you collaborate inside your organization to work with the folks generating the data. ⁓ can you share a little bit about, maybe across your career, what, what you found to be effective in that kind of collaboration and maybe what some of the challenges you've encountered are. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, I mean, so I think always. So it's always, I guess, better when there are less cooks in the kitchen, right? I mean, think really figuring out sort of who are the key team and decision makers and identifying them and then sort of figuring out how do we do this together? I think getting the right players, mean, within the organization. As I said, we're somewhat specialized, so it's really important to have people that go across different roles and they can sort of bring their own experience and expertise. Cause I think, you know, that's something that's super, super helpful to me is like, so we have this data, but you know, what is someone who's in that physician, right? So I'm, I sit in the global part of the organization, but There's someone like the MSL who's directly talking to a physician. So, you know, I want to get their perspective as well of, you know, is what do you think of this information and the same of, you know, other other people with medical degrees and also, you know, someone who works with the You know regulatory environment and someone who has legal expertise and other areas to just see you know what do you think of this information does it does it make sense and then obviously I can sort of bring you know I see it I guess less is like me coming into the meeting with an agenda and I see myself as more of the sort of the communicator so you know I want to just listen and Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: sort of help people say what they want to say. It's less about my take on it. I want to hear what they want to do and try and help them get there and try and figure out, as we were talking about earlier, how do we make this into a story? How do we keep it concise? How do we really get someone to see what's important quickly in the information that we have? Because I think, know, Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: No matter what, everyone is busy and doesn't have that much time. So we're fighting for their attention and we have to, yeah, we have to figure out how to get them the right information that they want to see quickly and hopefully, you know, still be able to tell some sort of stories, some sort of context to help them hopefully see it the way that we see it and why we're excited to share it with them. Kristen Sweeney: Right. Yeah, I imagine that that approach where you described that really coming in and listening first ⁓ probably goes a long way toward really positive collaboration with your colleagues of them feeling heard and certainly like letting the science lead the way ⁓ in those narratives that are developed. ⁓ There's a, to me, the big challenge when you get those differing perspectives is kind of the the part that makes your brain hurt, but in a good way, which is like, what do I do with that now? I've got to somehow synthesize all of that into one message, one deliverable, one asset, one voice. ⁓ And I think that that requires strong relationships in the organization, but also a lot of just like deep thinking, honestly, about what's in, what's out, what kind of... Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: goes onto the cutting room floor. How can we accommodate the different priorities without just diluting every, know, having it just kind of feel like the kitchen sink has gone in there. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Right. Yeah, no, agreed. And I think we have to like, you know, try out a bunch of things, right? It's not just that we like hear a bunch of perspectives and like, okay, well, this is the one to go with you. I think you have to sort of take it, take it to the next step and see, you know, this is what we thought. But can you know, does that tell the right story? Does that give the right information? Is that really the right message? Right? It's it sounds good, but does it you know, Does it when it's scrutinized by someone, does it does it still hold up? And I think that's that's where you sort of, you know, pressure test some of the information and try and see like, you know, if, you know, I have these great smart colleagues do you know, if I tell them this, they you know, do they believe me right? Or do they think no, that doesn't work. And I think that to me, that's really helpful to sort of Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: pressure test it, you know, with the same group as well to say, okay, you know, this is what you told me. And then this is what I came up with. Does that, know, does that work? Is there anything you know, we can, we can poke holes in, you know, within our organization to say, no, you know, that I thought about it now, now I see it come out. That doesn't really make sense anymore that you know, Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: That does work. That's exactly what I'm going to say is great. But yeah, think it takes some, you know, takes a lot of back and forth, ⁓ which is good. think that, you know, it's painful, but also we get to the right, you know, deliverable, the right product, right, based on that, that back and forth. ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, I love that you called out that it's painful. I'm working on something right now and something I talk about is this idea of like that grit is a like maybe the secret sauce of like actually moving things into the world. And I think sometimes we feel that friction and we think like, well, this is supposed to be a system. Like that friction means something is wrong. But the reality is Sean Sheffler-Collins: Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: You've got all these different perspectives. You've got people with competing schedules. You've got just a lot of, a lot of challenges, not all of which can be fixed or even sort of in your control. And so the ability to kind of push through and persevere, even if it takes more followups than it should, even if it's more conversations than you planned, you know, I think is, is kind of a. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: not necessarily a sign that something is wrong, but maybe a sign that you're facing things as they actually are. Like always work to improve the system, but acknowledge where that friction is going to be part of it. And you've just got to figure out how can you move forward anyway. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah! Yeah, no, mean, I think you get something better when there is disagreement and friction. Not when everyone just says, you know, ⁓ that's great. Let's, you know, let's go ahead. I know I was just talking to a colleague about that. ⁓ Recently, you know, he was just saying like, he has a team of people and you know, he was saying how, you know, he wants them to disagree with him. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: The point, you know, we, there is some hierarchy, but he wants to have team members who, who tell him that he's wrong. He doesn't, you know, doesn't want everyone to just say, ⁓ you know, you're, know, you're on the next level. So what you say must be right. We should go with that. I mean, I think that that I think is very, very important. And like you said that, like, I think it being sort of taken through the fire. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: makes it better in the end even though it hurts along the way for sure. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I want to transition us now into our one big idea segment. This is a portion of the show where we dig a little bit deeper into one specific topic. ⁓ We've already touched a little bit on it in our conversation about HCPs, but today we're going to talk about attention. So. I'd love to hear first why this is timely, relevant, important to you, this concept of attention, ⁓ and maybe also what we even mean, like kind of a line around or a circle around like, what are we talking about when we talk about attention in this setting? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, I mean, so I think some of our research says that we we only get about a minute of of an HCP's time where they're sort of going, you know, they're, they're seeing patients a busy day, they, you know, they have to keep up with the literature, they have to do different stuff. We have we have about a minute of their time, right? So either, you know, either you can hold their attention or They're just going to go to the next email, open the next tab on their browser. You know, there, there's, there's always a lot going on. So I do think that we're sort of, we're all sort of fighting for attention. And I think, you know, you were talking about blog posts and other things. mean, there's just so much content with social media, with videos, with, you know, everything is happening at once and Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: you know, we're all sort of being bombarded with that. And, know, I think even, even though some things are different and HCP is also, you know, a person too scrolling, you know, who's born in a meeting scrolling on their phone and, you know, to, you know, pick a kid from their activity and all that kind of stuff. you know, we don't have a lot of chances to get their attention. ⁓ And, know, I think that's. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: That's, yeah, a big challenge. I think even, you mentioned, it's hard to get around with AI and these other things. mean, there's just so much more content than any of us can consume as well. So that's, think a fight that happens all the time about sort of, who even sees what you do? And. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: you know, I think a lot of ⁓ with us, you know, you don't have that many chances either to you think you have this amazing data you want to share with someone and, know, you don't have that many chances with that person. Maybe, you know, you have something positive and then you can start, you know, further conversations or sometimes, you know, they just click to the next thing and that's ⁓ That's all you get. ⁓ So it's, yeah, it's a challenge. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I'm curious how you talked about AI and the proliferation of more and more content and things are just busier than ever. I find this so relatable. I feel like I'm constantly culling my inbox of things that I'm like, you're great. I just can't. I can't keep up to try and protect my time and my bandwidth. So I'm curious. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: If you're finding that, are those, ⁓ like, are congresses or in-person touchpoints playing a different role now than they used to? Are they more prominent for you? Is the role of digital ⁓ changing in that noisier environment? How do you see, kind more broadly, ⁓ medical communications adapting? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, no, for sure. mean, I think think Congresses are like a big a big time for us for sure, because that's that's a time where, you know, ATPs, everyone has their attention is totally focused on one thing. I mean, it's only for a couple of days, but their attention is there and they're excited to learn. And that's a great time to, you know, engage with them. You know, I think also, yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I was going to say it's like, it's not just quantity, but quality, like how many times have we heard quantity, but quality, but that's what really strikes me as you're talking about this is like, they're in a different space. They're not that 60 seconds they might have for you. It could become more if they, you know, walk by your booth and want to stop or engage someone in conversation. That's not possible when they're in between patients or, you know, Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: scarfing down a sandwich on their lunch break and scrolling on their phone, like, it's a different kind of ⁓ attention, maybe, that they're able to give something that's maybe a little bit, like, Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, no, think absolutely. And I think also, you know, that's that does have with us sometimes when we have like a big publication as well as another time where there's something, you know, something is published, it's picked up by news media or on social media and they, you know, that's another chance where there's something, you know, exciting that's happened. And there's a reason for them to get, you know, someone to open open a link or to scroll to something. And, know, I think for me, it's also my job to try to, you know, as far as we get into the omnichannel type approach, you know, to, try and have the content available to them in different forms so that they can, they can see it in that way. I mean, I think that's one of the things I do. It's not, it's not that I have, you know, 10 different types of content. It's just ⁓ same study or the same data, but you're trying to put it. in the different formats. So that way, if someone asks, know, it's available. If they're if there's someone who who wants to watch a video, then we have a video with someone who just, you know, wants you to send them the manuscript, then we'll send them the manuscript, whatever we want to do ⁓ to and try and meet people where they are, I think helps too. Because again, if you, you know, you ask for something, ⁓ you get it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, really finding ways to meet people where they are. Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: the odds of you going back to it are pretty slim unless it was really you you were really already you already thought it was important you're probably not going to go back it's going to be one of the things on your you know on your to-do list or one of one of your you know one of the tabs in your browser where you're like you know now now that I have 20 open then I'll you know I don't remember why I clicked on number four Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes. Sean Sheffler-Collins: So I'm just going to close it and try and try and declutter and get back to where I need to be. So. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Definitely. I like this perspective too on the idea that, you know, ⁓ I think especially on social media, there's a lot of sort of hype around like, this is the next new format and like everybody wants to watch it on video. Everybody wants, I mean, certainly you can look at something like TikTok and like see the extent to which there is some truth to that, but ⁓ there's, you know, some research I don't have the... exact information on hand, but the idea that even today, there are different kinds of readers. And some readers are going to skim all of your headlines, and some readers are going to read every word all the way down to the bottom of the page. That's kind of personality. And so being able to, as you said, meet them where they are with the kind of information and the depth of information, ⁓ it's not necessarily because you're chasing fads. It's to really try and. like have an impact in the way that people want to consume information. I know for me, I would much rather read something than watch a video most of the time. I can skim it, I can go back and review parts, know, like there are certain things I love about that. Many other people would definitely disagree. So that I just like that that perspective on what it means to be omni-channel and linking it really back to the people that you're serving. ⁓ And Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: how you can give them information in a way that they're going to be able to take it in and get the most value from it. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, no greed. mean, I think, yeah, I'm old enough that, I would rather read than watch videos, but it, you know, a of, a lot of people do. And I, I think that's also, you know, a point of the TikTok and other things and reels is that it's so, it's fast, right? The other thing is that it's, it's short because you're only paying attention for so long until there's something else, the next thing's coming. So that's, again, then Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Right, right. Sean Sheffler-Collins: The challenge is you really wanna make them remember you. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, so we've talked about, you have maybe a minute of an HCP's attention. We've talked about maybe format and channel of how you meet them, where they are in that presentation and having the same information available in different formats. What beyond that is, do you see as being effective in terms of really earning that attention or earning the right to kind of get that that second 30 seconds or maybe earn a like a second look or a closer look. Is it? Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, I mean, think, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that's also a time where we want to have something engaging, right? I think we want to not just like look at something, but hopefully engage. And again, to me, it doesn't matter what it is, whether you know, they, they then click the link to read the manuscripts, or they go to our website and get information or they, you know, go go look it up that it's sort of, you know, in the ideal world, there would also be an action associated with it, right? We we, get the attention, and then there's there's some kind of action. And, you know, I think that's where there's then there's opportunities. But you know, how to get that. That's hard. I mean, I think a lot of that is about being being credible for me and also trying to sort of as much as I can. mean, obviously, I'm not the HCP, but to try and speak their language to try and, you know, give them the information they want. And a lot of times, in my experience, that's that's sort of the data itself without without a lot of commentary and without a lot of words, but really like, you know, I have your time. This is, you know, this is is the one thing I want to show you. that I think will convince you of the benefits of what we're doing. yeah, really sort of honing in on that, ⁓ sort of across the content and in different ways. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I yeah, I think relevance too. I think maybe there's an easier sort of mapping of audience data sets, like who this is for. There's maybe some pretty direct lines you can draw, but certainly ⁓ in other sectors that we work in, like, it could be the driest thing in the world, but to the right, Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: engineer, it's gold. It's a gold mine of information. It's so valuable. And so I think really that comes back to like understanding that perspective and the relevance to them. And I think sometimes that requires loosening up a little bit what you think of as engaging. Sometimes that is, it's flashy, it grabs my attention, know, draws the eye, whatever that may be. But sometimes it is being so relevant and resonant that Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: that's what captures the attention because that person feels really seen, identified, kind of their needs are understood. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I, yeah. And I, you know, obviously now we have like some, you know, analytic data to set, you know, to try and reach, you know, who we think is most likely to receive our message. Right. So I, know, that, that is, that is helpful. But again, I think it's really important to really consider the audience and speak their language and try and try and meet them where they are. Like you were saying, know, whatever it is, you know, if there's something you know, they're excited about, then you want to, you want to give that to them because it doesn't doesn't matter how cool it looks, they understand the significance themselves. And they're ready. ⁓ They're ready to use that information. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. The last thing I wanted to ask you about, you mentioned it once, was just like being concise. So tell me about the value of that in a world where you've got, you know, 60 seconds. How do you approach that in your work? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that being concise to me is more powerful because I think sometimes like I, you know, I get a really long email or I open something up and there's so much text and sometimes I just like sort of zone out and gloss over. And to me, you know, I think that's that's really the most meaningful thing is, you know, can you say something in sort of I mean, to me, it's a it's a challenge, right? In as few words as possible. Can I say what I want to say? And to me, that's powerful. that's also something I know it's like, ⁓ it's funny thing, like with my wife and I write, she like really likes ⁓ things are like really long and really detailed and really descriptive. And for me, I like, I think of someone like Hemingway or some writer who's like very concise and yet there's like a lot in it. That's like my... ⁓ You know, my favorite is that it's both, you know, it's powerful and it's descriptive and it tells a story, but it's short. And I think I, you know, I'm definitely guilty of like picking books based on length sometimes because I just know like that's what I want is something short. I, you know, I want it to be short and to be interesting and to sort of... Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: take me somewhere and then, you know, I'm someone who loses attention and I want to do the next thing. So I want to be fully engaged with that. And to me, that's that's being concise and being, you know, being powerful. And I think, you know, I know, obviously, the technology is changing. mean, one of the things I find frustrating about a lot of the AI technologies, it's very like long winded and show-offy. I Kristen Sweeney: Be over. Mm-hmm. Sean Sheffler-Collins: to me that that really doesn't resonate with me that you know it really feels good if there's like you know the perfect word where you can get rid of you know a whole sentence and you just use one word to me that's like really I feel really great about something like that I really like get get into the get get into the the details and try and try and try and keep it short and sweet Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I think the first editing exercise I can recall was, I believe it was in middle school and we were tasked with editing the Gettysburg Address, you know, considered like an amazing shining example of a speech. And I forget what it was, but there was like a certain word count and we had to edit it down and it was hard, but very satisfying as you've said, you know. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right, yeah. And I think, you know, but again, you sort of want to, it's even harder in my mind that you like still want to keep something rich about it, right? Because you like you could you could summarize something in so few words that it has no meaning, but that's not the point. it isn't that it's just short, but it's still you need to retain that and you know, or I think of something like, you know, Kristen Sweeney: Yes. This is something that, yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: the state of the union address or something like it's a whole hour. You know, and then, and now we have like new sites and different things we're saying, you know, everything is like, what are the three takeaways for this? What are the five takeaways for that? So, you know, how do we sort of, I think a lot about how do we sort of like what I'm doing? What are the, you know, what is the one big takeaway? Right. And what else do I need to say to get there? And Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: To me, it's a lot easier to edit, you know, from 100 words to 50 words than it is to write down, you know, pages and then try and and sharpen it up. So I try and do more sort of editing as I go. I think that's important. And then also like, you know, if you're doing a slide or video or whatever, you know, you have visuals, right? So you want to... Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Sean Sheffler-Collins: it's, you know, I just like when I make a slide, I try and have as few words as possible. But I do want to, that's because I want you to look at it too. And then, and then see it for yourself. ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. engage, right? It's a visual aid, not a self-directed slide deck that is the presentation. You know, there's a presenter there for a reason. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I don't want you to be able to read the whole thing by yourself and get the whole point. I want you to pay attention to the speaker because there's not that much text. So you're focused on what they're saying and what I want you to get from that information. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, right. Right. Right. Yes, because at the end of the day, like in some situations, in some circumstances, the takeaways are good enough for us. And in some circumstances, we actually need and want to be influenced by the speech itself. And that experience is not captured in, you know, your bullet point takeaways. I think there's still definitely a place for both. Love that. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, no, I totally agree. Again, I think it's all about sort of who you're speaking to and what you want them to get out of it and whether... If you have the chance and they have an hour, then use the whole hour. Don't waste the time, right? But if you have one minute, then you got to have your elevator pitch of like, is why you should care. Kristen Sweeney: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I want to move, ⁓ speaking of time, we are running a little bit short on it. So I want to transition us to our lightning round. This is the last word. Every guest gets the same five questions. Sean, are you ready? All right. Question one. What is your favorite word to say out loud? Sean Sheffler-Collins: This is you should give me more time. you I'm ready. Chris. Kristen Sweeney: Crisp? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. It's like the way it sounds. Kristen Sweeney: Very, very evocative. like a head of iceberg lettuce just like popped into my mind. ⁓ Yeah, nice. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, or an apple. I always think of an apple like a yeah, a cold apple makes that satisfying sound so... Kristen Sweeney: Yes, crisp followed by the crunch. ⁓ Question two, what's a word you know from reading but you are not sure how to pronounce it? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Well today it was a himatopoetic Kristen Sweeney: Well done. Well done. Sean Sheffler-Collins: So there you go. From my job today. there you go. Kristen Sweeney: That's a good one. Nice. Question three. What's one phrase or saying you wish could be retired for good? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, I think I think when people say something literally my kids say it all the time and it drives me nuts like They do not mean it literally It is it is not is not the opposite of figurative it's just a fact Kristen Sweeney: But they do not mean it literally. ⁓ Yep, yep, nice. What's a communication practice or principle that's non-negotiable for you? Sean Sheffler-Collins: I mean, think less is more is my key principle. ⁓ So yeah. Consistent. Kristen Sweeney: We covered that. more. There's nothing more to say about it. ⁓ Leave it there. And last one. What's the last thing you read, or watched that really stuck with you? Sean Sheffler-Collins: you I really like the show shrinking ⁓ because it has the I really like the balance between it having like a lot of emotional resonance but also being like something that I laugh out loud to and I think that's it's so hard to find things that are both funny and ⁓ and Serious there was also this book Fundamentally, I just read there was another one. It's like a very serious topic, but I found myself laughing more than I do for anything else. So I guess that's my sorta sweet spot. Kristen Sweeney: Nice, nice. When things can truly, I mean, you know, get a laugh out loud, it's a pretty great feeling, actually. It's a high bar to clear. Awesome. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah. So yeah, I could watch Harrison Ford being a grumpy old man for a long time. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yes, I'm not sure how much he's acting for that role, know. Well, Sean, thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, where can they go to find you? Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, think LinkedIn is the best place to check me out. Kristen Sweeney: We can include that link in the show notes for everyone. Great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate you being here. Sean Sheffler-Collins: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It's great talking with you. Kristen Sweeney: You too.