Latest / Therapy and Theology / S8 E4 | The Truth About Narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder

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S8 E4 | The Truth About Narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder · Therapy and Theology

• Shae Hill: Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Therapy and Theology podcast by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lisa, Jim, and Joel. Remember, each episode of this season is gonna help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and be bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today, they're going to talk about narcissism, which we have covered on the podcast before, but it's been a couple years and you guys had so many great questions, so we had to circle back to it. They're also going to cover borderline personality disorder. Before we jump in, I wanna let you know about two things. First, we want to hear from you guys, our listeners. By clicking the link in our show notes, you can submit a question or even a voice memo for Lysa, Jim, and Joel to listen to. Your question could be answered on a future episode, so make sure you check it out. Secondly, download a free resource by Lysa titled, “Trust is a Track Record, Five Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness.” This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God, guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting him and more. Because we help you work through what you walk through here on Therapy and Theology, I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could really help you just do that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now let's jump in to hear from Lysa, Jim, and Joel. Lysa TerKeurst: In this episode, we're gonna talk about narcissism and borderline personality disorder. These are really heavy subjects. And I wanna say right from the top of this show that we are not trying to put labels on people, and we don't want you to take the information that's presented and start thinking of all the different people who have this disorder in your life and labeling them, and then looking at them through the lens of the label that you've now put on them. This is supposed to be informative, and it's not supposed to be a diagnosis of anybody in your life. However, not labeling, but these can be containers of wisdom that you can be aware of as you are in certain relationships with certain patterns of behavior, and just be aware of this. And the more awareness that we have in a situation, the better we are able to navigate it. So, Jim, I'm gonna let you kinda carry the weight of this one. So first, can you help us understand sort of the context of narcissism and then also the context of borderline personality disorder? Jim Cress: Yeah. And we've talked so much and a great day planning all this yesterday, and we're we're saying categories to think in. Interesting. There's some information here. I do know I will recount that when we did, way back in Therapy and Theology, an episode somewhat touching on the talk on topic of narcissism. We warned clearly on that podcast. Please don't jump in and say, oh, my word. I'm married to a narcissist, and I remember distinctly calling, down here to talk to someone. I said, I was watching it on YouTube. So when will this be released? I think it was 09:00 that morning. I went in. Soon about as we said that, start going through some information, diagnostic criteria, the comment section I was watching. I mean, I couldn't catch it. He's a narcissist. I'm married to a narcissist. And so as much as we may warn we have no control over that, but we're trying to be helpful to understand very low percentage of people diagnostically in America meet the criteria of the narcissistic personality disorder. And one of the things around that is when there is a true personality disorder, most of the research and understanding is most of those are gonna be very difficult, some say, impossible to change. So I wanna just do this and talk about some informative things, but not rush to that. People love doing it. Joel Muddamalle: I was just gonna say, I think I remember when we were first having this conversation years ago then even recently, there's some I remember listening sitting and listening to as you were kinda going through the the characteristics and I I started sweating because I'm like, am I a narcissist? Like, this this is and I I think I asked you that, Jim. And you said something that was, like, really helpful. I know what you said. And you said, well, actually, everybody has some level of narcissistic tendencies Sure. Inside of them and so I think that that is just also a helpful kind of baseline of instead of using labels to try to label people a certain way of just recognizing, oh, they're And the theological principle behind that is there's this thing that happened in Genesis three called the fall. And when the fall happened, Martin Luther, John Calvin have this Latin phrase called homo incurvatus in se. Okay. Wait. You know you're gonna say that again. They have a Latin phrase that's called homo incurvatus in se, which simply means humanity curved in upon itself. Jim Cress: What a picture. Joel Muddamalle: And so, you know, prior to the fall, we were human beings that, had appropriate balance of appropriate self love, but appropriate appropriate god love. Like, we're supposed to be fountains that poured out love and affection upon God, and then we received appropriate love and affection. But at the fall, our hearts are curved inward. And because our hearts are curved in in inward, we all have this tendency for self preservation. We all have a tendency towards self love. And so I just think that when you had said that that was just such a helpful way for me to even recognize, oh, there's just tendencies that I might have that can be redeemed and can be restored and dealt with in the economy of, the work of the Holy Spirit. And then there are also situations that are beyond just everyday normal, and it would be wise for us to have just some diagnostic tips to help, you know, explore further conversations. Lysa TerKeurst: Absolutely. And I think, like, just like you're referring to, there's there's a spectrum as with a lot of things. So you've got selfishness, like garden variety, sin selfishness down here. And then as you move down the spectrum, you've got narcissistic tendencies, narcissistic traits, and then full blown narcissistic personality disorder, which Jim said is a diagnosis that you have to get. And it's a very small percentage of people who actually get diagnosed with that. Yeah. And then that can even move into sociopathy, maybe even, you know, some other levels too. So but I think finding ourselves on that spectrum and recognizing that, you know, there there is self preservation happening at all these levels, but it's the intensity at which you, you put this out, you know, selfishness. But if we repent, then, you know, like, it's a garden variety sin. You know? But as it goes more intensely, you you're gonna have to get help for these tendency, these traits, and certainly narcissistic personality disorder. Jim Cress: And some of the signs and we've now set this up beautifully, wonderfully. I thought you would remember too because I'm confident I said it yay many years ago when you said, I mean, could I be a nurse? Joel Muddamalle: The fact that I -- the fact that I asked the question is Jim Cress: You remember? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Jim Cress: That usually now look, guys. This is not always a proof. This is not, you know, you run with a gym set or they sell the podcast. But often when a person comes in, I'm reading their energy. I'm sitting with an incredible author who wrote a book on humility. I'm listening. Are they coming in curiously and saying, you know, I have I I look took a test. I went on the Internet and took a test, and I wonder and or somebody's called me a narcissist. I go, well, let's hey. Let's let's have a little fun with this. Meaning, let's talk about it. And if I sense humility, any level of brokenness, because a a narcissistic person, let's say it that way, they're going to, over a period of time, use it not even a long period of time, they'll show their hand. Like, grandiosity, that's gonna be there, and and other people could be grandiose without having to be a a narcissist. Lysa TerKeurst: So tell me, how does that look in everyday life, grandiosity? Jim Cress: The coach said one time, hey, boys. Put your press clippings away. Okay? You won the game. And this person is always going back or can always go back and brag on oneself. Look at me. Look what I've done. I've done this. I've done that. Walking in, even wanting to have a, take over the room presence. But there's a grandiosity, like, you know, like, you're going through town as the emperor or something like that. As we know, the emperor often has no clothes. Lysa TerKeurst: And can it also be, like, in a conversation, they always have a bigger, a better, a more tragic, you know, whatever. And it's like, oh, that's nice. However Yeah. You know, you think that was bad? No. I have the worst of the worst of the worst. Jim Cress: Well, it's a seesaw effect of a narcissist. They will even if it's slow, they will push you down even if creatively oh, man. That is the worst story. Oh, maybe may I share? Their narcissists are seductive. And they're a narcissist if you're around them because I've been around them many times. And I gotta tell you, they are kind for a moment. They will bless you. They will it's kind of a reverse. You know, every narcissist has to have a supply. I think it like Dracula, basically, that's how they are. And they will literally go around and try to suck the life out of people. But sometimes they will give you life. They flip it because they're seducing you to pull you in. And our system is gonna have an impact to survive. That's a person who's lost all their identity and says, yes. You are great. I am great. I am great. So they're gonna have to have that supply, but inside what looks like even false repentance or what looks like they may be saying, you know, am I really a narcissist? Over amount of time in relationship, they can only hold that beach ball down so long and it will come up. Lysa TerKeurst: And it's not always external. Right? There are covert narcissism. I think that there's different categories. Jim Cress: Yeah that one is scary one for me. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Jim Cress: And I'm not calling that person. We've talked, you know, anecdotally about a they could be a sociopath. At least a narcissist. The narcissist, you know, is gonna care whether they make the news or not if they do something. The, sociopath doesn't care. So the idea is I'm looking, is there a narcissist typically? We're using that term very globally again. They don't do empathy. They have grandiosity. They want to be, fond over worshiped, adored, and they might give you all kinds of wonderful things, blessings, whatever gifts if you're there. They can, they have this massive sense of entitlement. They will exploit people for their own cause, And they are, as Rockelle Lerner's book on narcissism, the object of my affection is in my reflection, which goes back to the narcissist totally. And so there's a sense that ultimately they will move around to the mirror. Aren't I something? They will envy other people. And if somebody even in a healthy way is over here seemingly stealing their thunder or getting more attention, they're remember, the narcissist is probably about four years old with that narcissistic wound. They must be the star of the show. Lysa TerKeurst: And I love that we can hear the train in the background because it's also you know, even if they do great acts of love or generosity or whatever, they're gonna wanna toot their own horn, really. You know? Jim Cress: That was unplanned. Yeah. Wonderful sound effect. Lysa TerKeurst: But, also, it's there's there's kind of a catch to their generosity. They're like, hey. If I'm gonna be generous to you, then you are forever going to owe me something. You know? And or if, like, whatever the example is, like, if I am gonna, present you with the opportunity to be in a relationship with me, you always need to realize you're the lucky one. Right? Jim Cress: That's the hook, the quid pro quo, tit for tat. And then you you know the answer to this just globally. I think we all are here. And then if you don't do what I need you to do, suddenly, I'm not so nice. I've seen narcissists go from it's happened in political office. It's happened in churches. It's happened in companies, wherever. That that narcissist really will if you stay in line and do not come at them in any way, you basically obey, you bless them, be their supply, you will get quite a bit of benefits. But the first time you say no or I'm not doing this or you point out like the emperor's new clothes, it was the kid who said he's naked going through town. That that person is gonna flip pretty bad. And to get back in the good graces, if you get back in worshiping, I'm sorry, make amends. They'll let you back in. But you watch people like that that kind of scorched earth policy after you begin to say, I like, I'm not gonna be your supply anymore. I'm not gonna cosign. They flip pretty quick. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And I think one misunderstanding around narcissism is often we think that the root of narcissism is pride. And the root is not pride. The root is actually shame that pride helps cover up. So but that narcissistic wounding that you mentioned, I think that's important to understand too that they have experienced something at some point in their life where this wound and sometimes it becomes this untouchable. Like, they'll reveal part of the story, but not the whole story about what happened. But there's this wound, and they cannot let people get close to that. So I just thought maybe if you wanna touch on that too. Jim Cress: Yeah. I wanna touch on the way that you may not have thought about at this setting because I know we've talked about it. But one of the wounds there, and I do see it now more than anything. And again, if I may, this will probably get Joel's attention. Everybody doesn't deserve a trophy in the county league, the city league. And what we're doing is well, it's just true. What's happening is, or you are the best, you will grow up to be president, you're a there's a place for affirmations, but this over affirming in a culture of little narcissists running around is not the wound you're thinking about mama left, daddy left, there was a divorce, they were sexually abused. But this, either a, having a narcissistic parent or two and or they were just over affirmed and over praised and and that is also a narcissistic wound. A lot of times, we don't wanna look at it that way. Lysa TerKeurst: Or maybe a a lie that they started to believe that turned into a liability that is the wound. Jim Cress: Yeah. That happens even among siblings and say, why is this person, like, they're the when we do family rules stuff, like, they're the hero. They're the golden child. They're whatever else. And sometimes it's like heavy is the head that wears that crown. That's for all of us with children, grandchildren, whoever. Just be mindful. There's a place to praise and affirm, and there's a place to right size that but it's like literally just you will be everything. Sometimes different program that leads to what we call enmeshment or emotional incest that literally a parent has the little boy and the little girl and just fawning and and saying praise over like that. That kids can grow up and go, you know, mom says or dad says, I've been amazing. Again, I see it in the sporting metaphor where I've worked with many coaches and they come in and say, it is a nightmare because their kid was a rock star in a little dinky town, and they moved up into a bigger high school. And the parents are livid that Johnny is Michael Jordan or something. You know? And it's like, no. He's not. Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. So let's say we're listening, and we realize, okay. Not labeling, but containing that this is information to help make us wise, that we suspect we're in a relationship with a narcissist. And now what do we do? Jim Cress: Well, a great book again, bestseller, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. You know, a boundary without a consequence, we've said it many times, is a mere suggestion. A boundary is not you coming in with a ball batter when I'm boundering you. But to begin to first see things where they are, contemplate less on the narcissistic person but on you and to say, have I been a supply? What's been my very gently here. What's my payoff? And and there's been a lot of rewards being in relationship with a narcissist. Whatever that might be. Lysa TerKeurst: Give me some examples of being the supply. Jim Cress: Having to praise the person. The person is there, and the supply would be, you see something, you know, that's not cool, what's going on, or it's even wrong, or it's hurtful, but you don't say anything. You're constantly they will demand I want this. You mean I want sex. I'll do whatever I want with my money, our money. I'll do so that idea is I'm there to feed them constantly so that they if I keep them full, a lot of people, if you're full, my dog, if it's full, doesn't wanna necessarily just keep eating. So I'm constantly there and basically letting the narcissist have his or her own way, female narcissism too, and they're there to kinda get by and do whatever they want. There is no, you know, in that with the person who's in the the experientially, if you're in the supply, the empath there, you don't have a me. Now you do theologically. Of course, you have a me but you'll lose it. Everything is about that other person, but that other person who is narcissistic will give you benefits. Joel Muddamalle: I think it's a displaced me. Jim Cress: I think that Yeah. That's what -- yeah. Joel Muddamalle: The the it's not that you lose the me, it's that you actually now find your me in as a conduit through that other person. I think a lot of times what happens like like with the concept of humility, there's just false humility in it, you know, where you're like, oh, I'm just serving. Oh, I'm just, I'm just being kind. Jim Cress: That's rationalization. Yeah. Joel Muddamalle: You're rationalizing and, you know, in, when I was researching on humility, one of the things that I found was the most devastating types of humility is, the fruit of the spirit turned inward. And I call it this hidden pride where it's think about the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness. Right? When it becomes inverted, the goal of the fruit of the spirit is always the edification of God's people and the glorification of God. So it's always aimed out but when you leverage it for the spirit inward, it actually becomes about yourself glorification and your self edification. And in this context with the narcissistic kind of relationship, which you'll find out is you're actually getting your own gratification by being the source of fuel for the other person. So you're giving them all the love, joy, the peace, the patience, the kindness, and there is some sort of payoff, that is in that relationship. Jim Cress: The rationalization to the tie into that wonderfully put by you is I call it, well, at least that and then fill in the blank. Well, at least he he has been faithful as far as you know. At least he provides a good living or at least he actually goes to church or does this or at least he coaches the kids soccer. And I would argue, and at least he's fairly predictable. And sorry. We're saying he, it could be she too. At least he's this or that rationalization in the supply in that empath is. And after a while, it's like, you know what? The devil I know is better than the devil I don't know. That's a smart rationalization at one level until it becomes destructive. Lysa TerKeurst: So the number one suggestion, if you suspect that you're in a relationship with a narcissist, And some of the telltale signs of that is you you always have to think about what this other person needs. You have to anticipate it to the point where you're sacrificing what you need. Jim Cress: Walking on eggshells, baby, too. Be careful. Be careful. That's just man, that's a lot of cortisol in the body just walking around like that. Lysa TerKeurst: Right. And so to start to draw boundaries, though, you know, boundaries always need a consequence. They also will have a cost. And so the narcissist, like, probably we've never met a true narcissist that likes a boundary ever. And so what do we do? Like, do we just wake up one day and go, okay. I am no longer willing to blank or what? Like, how do we even start that process? Jim Cress: I've got a five when we've talked about from Scott Peck that mental health and spiritual health is a commitment to reality. I still hear it all day long. I people hear this. It's a commitment to reality. I didn't hear that last part. I mean, people will leave it off quoting it. At all cost is the most important part. It is not a commitment to reality. So what will it cost me? I like how you said I wake up, and I may say first, I've got to name it without pointing pointing a long, bony finger of judgment at my, he's just a narcissist. I begin to say, you know, I kinda think that these signs and there's a lot more you can always Google and read on the Internet or books that are out there. I think I think this could be going on. I'd pray and say, Father, is this something, that could be going and search my heart. Could I be an empath and a supply? Very gentle with yourself. Once you begin to have a dawning and awareness like, you know, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. Still there, I think like Mary pondered these things in her heart. Don't just jump and get into accusing or talking. Be be wise. And then I would contemplate what boundaries do I need to start with, you know, and and begin to go in. And if someone's treating me wrong or sometimes a simple boundary is no or, you know, my language, I'll say, no. Thank you for asking, and I don't have that to give or that doesn't work for me. Lysa TerKeurst: And I think rather than labeling, like, okay. He's a narcissist or, okay, she's a narcissist. I think the more helpful thing is let me list out what I'm experiencing. And then, like, our wise friend, Leslie says, Leslie Vernick, amazing. Here's my problem with their problem. Here's my problem with his problem. So these are the things that I'm experiencing. And I cannot force him to change. I cannot force a fix to his behaviors, but I do need to recognize how it's impacting me. And then here is my problem with their problem, and you then have agency to start addressing your problems. Okay. Let's shift now to borderline personality disorder. Jim Cress: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'll be glad to shift. These are in my experience in the therapy realm and just in the pop realm generally is these are probably the two biggest ones I see. And they're shaming usually how they're spoken. He's just a narcissist or she's a narcissist because she even a woman very successful, the head of a major fortune 500 company. It's like there's this thought right away where she must be a narcissist or you're a borderline and there's a lot of, you know, the narcissist of it's almost like, they're a narcissist. But the borderline is is the word like she's crazy. He's crazy. So with the borderline, just think of here is the borderline where we are in Charlotte. We're right up against the border of South Carolina and North Carolina. It's a borderline will walk the borderline between true reality and psychosis. True reality, reality and not reality. Some telltale signs you might see. A big one again, it might vary and fluctuate, but emotional instability. Hot and cold, especially early on as I've been a therapist for years, if I work with someone who may have some borderline tendencies, I know it's a dangerous thing when early on they are over, fawning for at me and praising me. You're the best because it feels good. I like words of affirmation. But what they'll do is they'll begin and they're hijacking and hot wiring a connection with you fast to say, you're the best. I've heard you're the best. I come here like this. Sometimes they've said, oh, by the way, I've seen six under there six other therapists. So I know I'm number seven, so we've got a problem. But they will have that where there there's a lot of kinda like a narcissist. They mirror in many ways, they're seducing, praising. Their emotions, that's why we use dialectal behavioral therapy. You can Google that. DBT for this. There's just this roller coaster up and down of emotions. You'll see a lot of anger with a borderline person. I think quicker than with a narcissist if you boundary them because we say, feed the narcissist. What we're saying to help them is feedback some of their stuff. You're kind of sneakily exposing them, but you confront you you boundary the borderline. And inside you say, no, you can't call me at three in the morning or no, we don't get ten extra minutes in the session or you don't and pretty quickly, you're actually doing something healthy, they will begin to blow up. Obviously, they can be very impulsive. They will either threaten self harm or they will actually commit self harm. And there's a huge trauma story behind behind any borderline person that I've seen. And like in the victim triangle, respectfully, when I see just a just a litany of blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blaming other people left and right, I think that can be, a sign. Also, it's somewhat a narcissistic to land us with borderline is suspicion even to the point of paranoia. That paranoia can be really big like, this is what you'd like. No. I'm just saying it's a kind of a blue pen. No. It's more than that and you'll see this. It doesn't often come on early. But inside, there's a person there's a great book, Stop Walking on Eggshells. Literally, it can be crazy making. They're whipping this way. Talking about relational whiplash. Over here, very dysregulated and all like that. See the person, not the problem, please. See the person, not the personality disorder. Right? A lot of compassion. Lysa TerKeurst: And so then if I'm in a relationship with someone who has these traits of borderline personality disorder, what do I do? Like, what do I need to realize? How do I need to think? You know, how do I navigate the instability? Because it's hard to be in a relationship where you're you're with someone you never quite know what you're gonna get. Jim Cress: Well, if you think about this is a true story you've asked me before. Jim, share a true story. I was working with a person once and walking on egg this person was walking on eggshells with a person, walking on eggshells, which is that book title. And he came in and said, I have got a victory story. I go, I love it. What is it? He said, I stopped while I go walking on eggshells. I said, really? What'd you do? His words were everywhere. I start stomping on eggshells. And I've splattered yoke all up and down this person. And so inside that the idea there is don't go from one extreme to the other. So the stop walking on eggshells is to consider what will be what if you're the child of someone whose parent was borderline or narcissistic? What will this cost me? Now I'm speaking mainly to adults here because with young children, I mean, there's only so much power they have. But to look and say, I need to be prepared that that borderline may turn, may gossip behind my back, they may threaten their own self harm, they may blame me saying, you call yourself a Christian. That happened to me once in in a family situation years ago and I went, wow. So be prepared that they may go scorched earth on you and be prepared that sometimes in a family system or just with friends like this person, you know, the person just loved, the parent just loved, and the other one of their siblings, they didn't love. They turned they that's, like, kind of almost an identified patient that why sometimes I can figure it out with people in their story, sometimes I can't. But this person is almost worshiped and like a child and this person is not. So part of that is the cost of doing that and then getting oneself to safety, especially for adults watching or listening is you often have to move away from family of origin and develop family of choice. You literally build we are called the family of God after all. And then this I hope this sounds right because I mean it from my heart. Word of God, don't answer a fool according to their folly and don't cast your pearls before swine. Almost like I just wish I could get this person to just see. I would pay for therapy. I would do anything. I own my stuff and that's hustling for your worthiness in a relationship with borderline or narcissistic personality, not disorder. Don't wanna do that. But it's gonna take grief. It's gonna take grief to to to back up from all that and realize the other person goes on and can talk about you, cut you down, whatever else. Joel Muddamalle: I think if you're gonna be, if you're gonna take an adequate look at the cost of what it is It's gonna require humility. Like, humility is simply self awareness. It's an awareness of who you are in light of who God is so you can readily relate to other people. And, I just keep thinking about why is it in your every time you you use that quote, Jim, at the end, you start to mumble, you know, at all cost. I think it's because part of it is just in our in our own humanity, like, there's a sacrifice to deal with that cost. And I just wonder at some level, are we gonna be okay with that cost? Lysa TerKeurst: But there's a cost on both sides. Jim Cress: Right. Right. No doubt. Lysa TerKeurst: There's a cost if you stay in close proximity of that person, and there's a cost if you start to remove yourselves from really damaging, dysfunctional, and often destructive situations. And by remove, I don't mean, like, immediately abandon that person, but, like, start pulling back a little bit so that the proximity isn't so close that they have the ability to destroy you. Right? So there's a cost if you stay. There's a cost if you start drawing those boundaries, and I think we have to have some really good self awareness on both sides of that. I've also heard that in Borderline, they have an extreme fear of abandonment. Jim Cress: Totally. That's one of the biggest ones, and thank you for bringing us back to that. So inside, they may have been abandoned at a child. I've never seen one that I've worked with with people, again, have so much compassion for if they have, like, borderline qualities. Is that's why I mean, gotta do story work, people. I was pastors and Christian leaders as they could or discipleship. Let's at least somewhat get their story out. They'll be either, you know, maybe at least three a's. I'll do four a's. There are abandonment issues for sure. Addiction. It's not hard. A lot of homes have addiction we're not even paying attention to. Abandonment, addiction, the this idea that can go on where there's abuse at some level, and I know experiencing a high level of sexual abuse, and then attachment, meaning the lack thereof. So the idea of there was not healthy attachment, I mean, that's that's a lot that's in there, and I begin to look at the narrative behind that. And, again, there's treatment. My daughter has done as she's finishing her master's in counseling in a whole center, and all they do is deal with treat borderline people, people who are struggling with that and seeing people, it's a hard road but people be able to get set free with certain therapies and working through things. That's not one of your five sessions and you're done. But if people wanna do that, they learn a system of healthy coping, they learn awareness. So narcissism too and that's the big one people will say. Well, you know, most narcissists don't change. Now, sorry, basketball player, but I like a good challenge. I am fairly competitive whether it seems like I am or not. And I'm like, brother, ma'am, whoever, let's prove them wrong. And you say, well, you're just being a supply and impact. Maybe I am. But I'm like, we're gonna go against the odds, but if Saul can become Paul and we have the gospel, if you wanna do that, it's gonna take we're not gonna do two sessions and you're done. If we because what what I don't work out, I'll act out. But let's go in and with the power of Christ, do the work. It's gonna take some hard work. Right? Let's prove the stats wrong. Sometimes and if I even if I lose with that, I at least, as Stonewall Jackson said, throw everything into the fight. I'm gonna do everything I can for my clients and leave the outcome to them in God. Because this is curse. They'll never change on my, you know, I you know, leave put God back in this thing. Anything's possible. Lysa TerKeurst: And we've done previous episodes here before on boundaries, and so that's one of the main things you've heard with a situation that you're dealing with someone on the spectrum of narcissism or you're dealing with someone on the spectrum of borderline personality disorder. I think it's gonna be really crucial that we realize we cannot put boundaries on another person to force them to change. If they are unwilling or incapable of making those changes for themselves, then what do you do? You put boundaries around yourself. For more information on that, you can listen to one of the previous episodes right here at Therapy and Theology on boundaries. We'll put some links so that you can easily access those. But, also, I do have a book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. I would highly encourage you to check out that resource as well. Jim, Joel, I know today in this subject, this was kind of a really heavy, hard one. But we pray that this information has really helped you. Again, we are not telling you what to think, but we're giving you a lot to think about. Thank you so much for joining this episode of Therapy and Theology. Shae Hill: Lysa, Jim, and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation. Friend, after listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or, like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you might find yourself in a really difficult place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good, or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help. That's why I wanna remind you about Lysa TerKeurst’s free resource titled, “Trust is a Track Record, Five Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness.” Download it today using the link in our show notes. That's all for today, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in to Therapy and Theology. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.