Latest / The Payments Shed / Ep. 30 - From One Size Fits All, to Merchant-First: The Modern World Business Solutions Channel & Tech Revolution

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Ep. 30 - From One Size Fits All, to Merchant-First: The Modern World Business Solutions Channel & Tech Revolution · The Payments Shed

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Welcome to the Payment Shed Podcast, the weekly podcast that
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dives into the big topics, trends and people shaping the
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world's of payments, fintech and business leadership of your two
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Co hosts, myself Grant Evans and Justin Hannah.
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Welcome to another episode of the Payment Shed Podcast.
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Today we are joined by Warren Whitfield, founder and CEO of
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Modern World Business Solutions. Warren, welcome to the show.
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Please introduce yourself. Thank you very much.
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Thanks for having me. I'm Warren Whitfield, founder
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and say I have one of my business solutions.
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So, yeah, thank you. Can you tell us a little bit
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about sort of your journey in in payments today and and the
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business obviously? Yeah, it's evolved quite a bit
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as as you might have seen over the last sort of seven years.
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Originally we founded Modern World back in 2017.
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I want to say it's just a, a sub ISO of A and then more senior
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ISO called First Payments. I don't know if you're familiar
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with those guys. And we became a reseller of
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their product. And I soon realized that we
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weren't ever going to get to a point where I was going to be
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satisfied with what we were doing.
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So we, we started to evolve really quickly from then really
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and to the to the business we are today where it's more
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fintech and almost a business that develops continuously
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enablement software for anyone in the merchant services chain
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really. And we've spoken previously and,
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and something that you you said that stood out was that kind of
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six months in you realised the market was a little bit broken
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and the one supplier model just wasn't going to be the right
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fit. What was kind of that light bulb
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moment that made you think that? If I'm, if I'm honest with you,
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the, the light bulb moment came from, from a, from a chargeback
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risk like we at that time back in 2017, we had, it was a
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standard model that you'd expect to see self-employed resellers
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running around selling the one product that we had at the time,
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which was obviously fit in a square peg in, sometimes fit in
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a square peg in a round hole. And after that six months, we
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realised that there was a, there was a chargeback risk from the,
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from the leases that we would give out and those leases when
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we would, when we'd call up the merchant and be like, what,
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what's going on? Why, why you're not paying your
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bill? It would always be the same
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thing. Either the, the salesman signed
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me up incorrectly or it wasn't the correct fit.
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It's not what the, the salesman sold for me.
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So when you hear that for like a couple of months and all of a
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sudden at that time I didn't, there's no money.
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I didn't have any money. So at that time it was like,
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this is going to become a real big problem real quick if we
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continue down this path. And that was, that was the, the
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moment really when I was like, right, we've got to do something
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different here. We've got to start being more
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consultative around selling payments and how can we do that?
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And then that's when I started looking at the multi acquirer
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model and how we could get into that sort of I, I found it
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astonishing that there wasn't a like a comparison type of
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website available for resellers of payments in a unregulated
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world. And I was like, that really
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interested me back then. It's like, why, why, why doesn't
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it? And obviously the more you dig
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into it, it's through acquirers wanting that that market share
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all for themselves and I wanted to try and bust that.
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And kind of pre launch, what did you see as the gap in the market
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when you were just that ISO as as you mentioned?
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Exactly what I've just said there.
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The, the, the, the fact that it was often, it was often filled
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with resellers that were selling one particular product because
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of market. They just wanted their demanded
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market share. These acquirers.
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So the the USP of a consultative seller sitting in front of
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someone and fit in the narrative of their business didn't exist
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or if it did exist, it would still only be one or two
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acquirers, not necessarily like the whole of market.
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And I found that really interesting that that didn't
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exist in such a critical world. It's a commodity really payments
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nowadays and not as much as we don't want it to be.
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It is it's a business that it's a it's a service that everybody
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needs. And to not have a, you know, a,
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a selection process which is fit for your business really struck
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harbour mean that that's where it really come from.
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Really it's the fact that we wanted to try and put that into
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place. Why do you think so many
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merchant services providers are still fishing in the same sea?
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Is it kind of lack of diversification?
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What what have you seen? Again, a question beyond that,
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you've obviously got a pool of resellers that sit below your
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black. Have you seen them sort of
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diversify out of that same sort of pool?
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If, if, if you want the real honest answer, I think it, I
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don't think it is diversified anymore.
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I think it's driven by the acquirers.
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Again, if I've almost taken market share back by paying
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ridiculous upfront sort of bounties to try and win
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business. So our model is very different
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where I was like, look, we're not going to compete with the
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likes of I don't know if I'm allowed to say names on here or
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not. I'm not allowed.
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You're not going to compete with the companies that are paying
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large upfront bounties. So we've got to offer something
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different. So what we're offering is a, a
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platform which is agnostic so that a real genuine salesperson
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that is, you know, really wants to put their merchant first and
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match the narrative of a, of a, a acquirer to a customer like
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they can use our platform. That's what we try to do.
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What, what does merchant first kind of actually mean to you in
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practice? Like we can use it as a slogan
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and a lot of businesses do, but what does it mean to you?
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Understanding them a little bit more, I think and then obviously
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matching their their exact profile to a, to a an acquire.
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It's on our platform or not necessarily just that one that
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one business to to 1 acquirer. I don't, I don't particularly in
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a world where there's so many different variations now it's of
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acquiring like next day settlement, seven day
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settlement, like net settlement, gross settlement, the different
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hardware certifications, the different apps that sit on the
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hardware. There's so many variables that
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you can, if it was a true consultant, you would understand
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the needs of a business and match, match it backwards.
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I don't think that exists really with a lot of the market at the
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moment. And what we're trying to do is
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create that sort of 11 sort of centralized platform where any
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reseller of a merchant service can look on there and find the
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the correct solution for a merchant they sit in front of.
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A frustration for me is if if you go online now, you see
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everybody seems to be a payment consultant.
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Yeah, yeah, like what really is that payment consultant, right.
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And you mentioned there what I see as consultants can send and
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send their challenges and their needs as opposed to I have lots
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of solutions. The The thing is with these
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payment consultants is that often they only have one tool in
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their toolbox, right? So how can you be a consultant
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if you've only got one? This is it.
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So I'd, I'd be, it's always my question back is like that.
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If you want to be a real consultant and we're definitely
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the right choice for you. If you just want to sell
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payments and there's miles up, there's other companies out
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there that definitely will be better, especially if you're
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driven by the revenue that you get off placing a mid or a Ted
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or whatever it is that you're doing.
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So there's nothing wrong with that.
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This bit is what it is, but it, you know, from the way I want to
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do business, it's a little bit different.
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When you look back at kind of the first sort of 1218 months of
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modern world when you were on that sort of early growth stage,
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is that one sort of particular decision maybe outside of going
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multi acquirer that kind of sticks with you as to that's
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kind of shape the direction the business is headed in?
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Other than the obvious that like, in terms of like the
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people that we bought in the decision to like I was the guy
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that built our platform, Chris, our CTO.
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Like that was, there was a pivotal moment where we made him
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a shareholder, which obviously we needed to lock him into for
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longevity. He's a, he's a genius of, of a
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developer. So that, that was obviously
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critical for us. But in terms of direction, we
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just wanted to, I suppose the idea of this platform was the,
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the, the pivotal moment really. And, and we knew that the way I
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think is we, we knew that off the back of that, there would be
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many more areas where we, we could innovate into.
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Like the idea of the platform really was a, a starting block
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for us to innovate into other enablement software.
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Such as obviously, you might have seen the genie now, which
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obviously is a the next step. And you've seen the payments
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market, which is a comparison site for merchants, which is
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again the next step. And that that all sort of
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creates a big ecosystem of technology that all in, in the
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grand scheme of things is enablement software for the for
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everyone involved. We, we talk about the reseller
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and the channel side of merchant services and sometimes it is a
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bit misunderstood and maybe maybe overlooked.
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How do you think your model works and kind of why does it
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matter to to businesses that want to work with you?
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It it works because of that, what we just explained before
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like that it won't work for some people.
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We we get that, but those with respect are not the type of
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people that we want to work with, which is fine.
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It works for to give a real solution to a real need like it
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it. There are lots of different
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acquirers. The market is very, very crowded
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and they all claim to be the best and the best service and
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the best products and the best. And, and what our platform does
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is allows any reseller of payments to be educated in those
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products and to also then put them forward in a in a proper
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manner rather than just going around selling that one product.
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We think that we we think that that really matters.
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We think that everybody. Should what about when When
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you've got a merchant that's with an acquirer, the product's
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fine, but it's just expensive. Do do you think from a reseller
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perspective there's a need to go in there just to drive down
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price within actually some of that merchants doing themselves?
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I think, I think sometime it, it, it depends, I think is the
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answer. I don't want to be a politician
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here, but it depends, doesn't it?
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Like if, if you, if you've got a, let's for an example, if
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you're going into a merchant where their price has just crept
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over a period of time. So which we all know that
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happens and they don't know because they, they haven't been
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looking at their bills or what have you.
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And a, and a consultant can come in and say, I can keep you with
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the same provider. I can keep you with the same
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hardware and the software, but I can have a look and see whether
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I can improve something for you. Then I would expect them to do
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that. If it means that we can keep a
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happy, a, a customer happy that the, you know, the acquirer
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happy, the the relationship's all sort of, you know, happy, I
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would, I would encourage that and.
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What do you think is broken about the more traditional
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single acquirer or white label model?
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Broken's probably a strong word because it clearly still works
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in some in some capacity, but it's just completely the
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opposite of what we have built our own whole business on.
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Like you've obviously got this platform that's multi acquirer
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agnostic, really driven around choice transparency.
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And and then you've got this one other model on the other side of
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the, the, the scale, which is literally you've got to sell
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this one solution, whether it's the right fit or it's not.
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I I don't know whether I could get behind that.
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Any COM point of view when you want to go down that multi
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acquire route, Obviously your gateway choices become more
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limited in recent years because a lot of gateways have been
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acquired by acquirers. That's a sentence to say, but
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you know that has narrowed slightly the choice of
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independent agnostic PSPS and then you bring the orchestration
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layers that kind of push back on that a little bit.
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But has that been a challenge for you in terms of the ECOM
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side of the business? Not if I'm honest.
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We don't really do a lot in ECOM and all we all we like all we
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tend to do is partner with the gateways anyway.
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So like you know, the likes of NMI or agnostic and you know,
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the element payment gateway and a pay O and you know, we will
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only partner with them anyway card stream.
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So, so you know, we don't, we don't do a lot in it, but we
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would only partner with these. Conscious choice that you've
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made around e-commerce is the only reason, no?
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It's just that the type of people that join our platform
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are normally post sellers and traditionally pod sellers don't
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really sell a lot of E com because either they don't
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understand it or they don't want to get behind it or they're
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driven by the Commission that they get from the pods or
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whatever it might be. So historically, we've just
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never really jumped into that world.
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We've got a couple of salespeople internally that work
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in inside E com, but we don't, we don't sort of have a huge E
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com book working with trying to sell to me.
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No, I'm just thinking I wonder if I can get work.
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No, I mean, look, I, it's, it's interesting the other side of so
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sold in E com for a long time, but in terms of you often have
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an ecom business and they have one or two bricks on bricks and
11:48
more locations, right, But there's also smaller bricks and
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more like particularly with COVID, right?
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You know, your florists, your coffee shops, the the coffee
11:55
shop decides to do their own range of beans now, right?
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And then they launch a Shopify store and they've got an ecom.
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Maybe Shopify is the answer. They've it's quite closed loop
12:02
that ecosystem right now. It's the easy thing for them to
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take off the shelf, but it just feels like there's always an
12:06
upsell opportunity for ECOM, even in small SMB businesses
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these days. We, we've, we've obviously it's
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funny to say that because you, you would have touched on it
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earlier with the genie, which is, which is obviously it's a, a
12:19
POS product primarily, but it comes with the lamp, which is a,
12:23
the control panel effectively, which has got a virtual terminal
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in it. And yeah, and it's, and a send
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by leg of paper link and, and what have you.
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But the idea is there that it also comes with a payment
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gateway that would unify that whole journey.
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So the idea is that, you know, come 2026 when we have this big
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distribution push that if they're starting to sell our own
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products, our own software, then we will be going after not just
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the, you know, the, the bricks and mortar, but we'll also try
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and unify their, their gateway takings, their website takings
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inside the same platform. That's something that we, we're
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really, we're really hopeful for.
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So hopefully 2026, we'll see a lot more, a lot more e-commerce
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business than we have. Done. 1 issue I've always had
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working at gateways that have acquiring relationships is that
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the acquirers want to fight out to get a bigger share of wallet
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right? Which is the job of any partner
13:07
manager that's managing a relationship of a gateway.
13:09
How do you try and act as fair as possible to keep all of your
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acquirers happy? I don't know if there's an exact
13:14
answer for that, I'm just interested.
13:16
How you guys do it, I can tell you that it took.
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So when, when we back in 20/18/2020, whatever it was when
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I wanted to go down this route, it obviously was a very tough
13:26
sell for me to try and get ISO contracts with lots of different
13:30
banks as a, a small ISO that was doing no volume.
13:34
But so I had to almost convince everybody that the idea of this
13:39
agnostic platform was the way to go.
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Because the, the idea is if you're placing the right
13:43
business and the, the attrition's lower for a start.
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So they all love low attrition. The contracts remain the same in
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the back end. So this is truly we, we do, we
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do it. So it is truly is the merchant's
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choice which and the resellers choice.
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Sometimes we have like deeper relationships with other
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acquirers, but only because of API integrations and the
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capabilities they give our own technology that we developed for
14:06
instance. So we try and be as fair as
14:09
possible. We don't actively you know for
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our reseller channel certainly we don't actively push anybody
14:13
independently or one, one more than the other.
14:16
It's all driven by choice and and giving that complete
14:20
transparency. Do you think those acquirers
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have softened their stance on that exclusivity piece as well
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or they've had to? They I think say the, the
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market's changed somewhat since I've, since we started and I, I,
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I, there's some, there's, there's definitely truth behind
14:34
the saying that, you know, we've got, we've got the choirs on our
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platforms that definitely won't be happy with the volume they're
14:39
getting because they're getting left behind.
14:41
But we are delivering meaningful volume to 80% of the acquirers
14:46
that we've got on our platform. So I'm still imagine we're,
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we're giving, you know, the likes of the lesser acquirers,
14:53
Tier 2, Tier 3. I'm still imagine that we're one
14:55
of their top Isos even delivering the numbers we are
14:57
delivering. So, you know, from their
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perspective they would of course they would like the big chunk,
15:02
but something is better than nothing, I think.
15:04
I think exclusivity is, is word in payments that everybody bangs
15:07
on about. I don't, I've signed exclusivity
15:10
contracts with merchants before knowing full well and we're
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going to have no idea in years to come.
15:15
We have not. It's really exclusive because
15:17
there's so many clauses and contracts that allows merchants
15:19
well, actually you don't have this product.
15:21
So I've got to go and get it from one of your.
15:23
Contractors what feels like an on contract, but generally it's
15:26
30 days notice on most merchant accounts and it's 18 months of
15:28
the PSR on on most kit now as well.
15:31
So it's. None of our none of our
15:32
contracts that we have with any of our acquirers are obviously
15:34
exclusive for obvious reasons, you know, so you know, we've
15:39
obviously got stronger relationships with some.
15:41
I don't think it's a secret that we've got some stronger
15:43
relationships with some than others, but those those
15:46
relationships were built on us developing technology that
15:48
leverage their existing technology.
15:50
And then because of that, it things just sort of new
15:54
relationship get stronger, you develop something that they
15:56
don't have and it becomes a bigger, a bigger thing.
15:59
But we haven't got, you know, we haven't got any sort of rules of
16:01
thumb of how much we can push one to whatever.
16:03
And on that topic of technology, no secret that you guys have
16:06
been winning awards left, right and centre over the last couple
16:08
of years. We graduations for that.
16:10
That does very much feel to me though, linked to the tech first
16:14
approach that you have your dashboards, your portals, the
16:17
different things that you're bringing behind the scenes from
16:19
technology point of view, rather than just we've got some
16:21
hardware, we've got this application system, There's a
16:23
lot more to how important are those dashboards and what you're
16:25
trying to achieve with the different portals that you're
16:26
offering to your own customers as well.
16:28
Good question. So there's, there's a lot,
16:30
there's lots of different technology that we've got now
16:32
that the idea of it is to play in the white spaces, if you know
16:37
what I mean. So, So what we want to try and
16:39
we don't we don't want to sit in the fly funds anywhere we don't
16:43
want to, we don't want to become PCI with inside PCI scope or
16:46
anything like that. We almost want to develop
16:48
software that enables anybody in the chain, but sit inside the
16:52
white spaces where we can just go under unregulated really in
16:56
terms of we don't want the, you know, the any of that
17:00
legislation is going down on the boring stuff.
17:02
Yeah, we want to be we want to spend our our time and our money
17:05
developing in areas where we we can overlay in other people's
17:11
other people's software. So, so we wanted to try and
17:13
create the, the whole ecosystem, which is what we've done really.
17:15
We started with the, the platform, which opens up
17:18
transparency for everybody and then we created the, the
17:22
compared to market, which obviously then opens up to the
17:24
merchants to be able to change it.
17:26
And then we wanted to get a piece of software on a device
17:29
that actually bridges that communication.
17:31
So we want to, we, we thought that there was a massive
17:34
disparity between the PSP or whoever owns that merchant
17:37
really. So not the ISO, the actual bank,
17:39
the acquirer, the whoever and the actual merchant.
17:42
So sometimes there's two or three places removed between
17:45
that journey and then people always swap out and go and work
17:48
for other companies and retire or what have you.
17:50
So that merchant actually doesn't have never actually had
17:53
any communication with someone that works for the PSP or the
17:55
acquirer. So we wanted to try and make a
17:57
communication tool from that platform to that platform, which
18:00
is what the genie does fundamentally is is closes that
18:02
gap. So that's what we've what we've
18:05
been trying to do really is just is just sort of work really
18:07
closely on communication and and transparency and.
18:12
Is Commission clarity a big part of that as well?
18:14
Because I feel like a lot of Isos have always struggled with
18:17
what does this Commission actually mean?
18:19
What are the breakdowns like? How am I earning my money?
18:21
Is that part of what you guys? Yeah.
18:23
So that was, that was probably what one in, but in between the
18:27
year 2020, I think it was in 2023, we, we got a massive
18:31
intake of resellers coming onto our platform, some that we wish
18:35
we'd never had and some that we, we're, we're still with us today
18:38
doing great business. Part of that and the biggest USP
18:41
was the fact that we uploaded all of the pay aways onto the
18:44
platform. Chris, the CTO had built a piece
18:46
of middleware that basically digested it all and put it into
18:49
their platform. So they could almost see exactly
18:52
to the penny. Yeah, look, look, because people
18:55
would normally they would moan and say, I work for this
18:58
acquirer, but all I get is a spreadsheet which could quite
19:00
easily be manipulated. So what we, what we tend to do
19:03
is of this spreadsheet or this, this, this form that we give
19:06
them a page on hour, a page on hour platform breaks down
19:10
everything like literally to every single transaction.
19:13
And then if anyone does come back and say, well, why are we
19:15
making a loss on that card? All all we do is get them on a
19:17
teams call and actually show them the actual the, the the
19:20
form that it's been dragged from from an API.
19:22
So there's no, there's never any disparity around people moan
19:25
because they don't price correctly and people, but it it
19:28
that that's quite they're quite within their rights to.
19:30
But what's important to us is that we know that we've always
19:34
got the the answer, like we can always like back it up with a
19:37
true piece of, you know, paperwork from from the acquire.
19:40
How's that technology then enhanced the the the post
19:45
experience for a merchant? So that that that technology
19:50
hasn't necessarily worked with the the merchant.
19:54
What has is the data that we're giving to a reseller should by
19:59
proxy enhance the experience of a merchant because they've got
20:03
more data at their fingertips. So for example, if if this
20:08
merchant that was you, you referenced earlier, they're
20:10
they're a little bit concerned around their price creeping up.
20:13
If they go to their reseller and say I'm a little bit concerned
20:16
my price keeps creeping up, then the reseller has got all of that
20:18
data available to us so they can say.
20:21
Let me just check your account. They can see the last 12 months
20:23
acquiring, they can see what they've turned over, they can
20:25
see they're live transacting, they can see how much they've
20:28
earned out of that customer. So they should be able to make
20:30
an informed decision around. Actually, Mr. Customer, I've
20:33
made a couple, obviously wouldn't say this, but I've made
20:35
a couple of grand out of you over the last 12 months.
20:37
I can, I can, I can reduce your pricing and still remain
20:40
profitable. It's a headless system.
20:42
They're not. So it's kind of merch and
20:44
merchant access a portal that's headless?
20:46
Or do they take your data and pull it into their own port to
20:48
present? Social all the, all the data is
20:50
digested from either the hardware, the, the hardware
20:53
software that we've implemented. So like the likes of the Genie
20:56
or box or something like that. And they would, all the
20:58
merchants would always have their own portal, which is not
21:01
the same portal that our partners would see.
21:02
But the data would remain the same.
21:04
So they'd all, all the, you know, they'd see what they'd
21:06
expect to see. Today's takings, yesterday's
21:08
takings, ATV, transaction count, whatever you might see.
21:12
Today's episode is sponsored by ISX Financial.
21:15
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21:18
providers to run their payments and banking, leaving them
21:20
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21:24
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You can learn more at ISX dot Financial.
21:49
That's ISX dot Financial and a big thank you to the team at ISX
21:53
for supporting the show. With being a tech first business
21:57
like you guys are, what has been the hardest part about building
22:00
and maintaining your own technology platforms?
22:04
I think that's a good question. I think keeping up actually or
22:09
keeping ahead like it's, I'd like to think that we're ahead
22:13
of the curve on most of the things that we're we're
22:15
creating. And bearing in mind that we've
22:18
obviously got this approach where we do what we we do work
22:21
in the white spaces. So we don't want to get into
22:22
flow of funds or anything like that.
22:24
So we're always innovating on how can we enhance and how can
22:28
we sort of enable merchants or or resellers to do more.
22:31
And now we've obviously got the the arts of AI coming along.
22:34
So we've got more, more ideas around that.
22:37
And I think so the, the hardest part, which ironically is
22:40
probably the one thing I am, I would pat myself on the back
22:43
floor and say I'm actually quite good at is the ideas, the
22:46
thinking of that next thing that, that next product that no
22:49
one else is going to even think of.
22:51
I'd like to think that that we're ahead on the game with
22:54
that. So that's difficult though,
22:55
because obviously as, as you're getting, as we're getting bigger
22:58
and we're getting more, more exposure look from obviously the
23:02
the awards that we that we keep winning, which is a great thing.
23:06
But it does, it does sort of weigh expectations on what we
23:09
what we got, what was coming next, what's next, what's next.
23:12
We're in. We're in quite a saturated
23:13
market that seems to be moving fast, which sounds
23:16
counterintuitive to be saying that You got lots of legacy
23:19
providers. We've got more regulation than
23:21
ever before. We've got buzzwords that that
23:24
are doing things, embedded payments.
23:26
Where do you things, where do you see things heading over the
23:29
next few years? You mentioned before you like to
23:31
think of ideas before they're there.
23:32
Where do you see the payments industry moving over the next
23:34
couple of years and kind of what trends are shaping that?
23:37
Yeah, tell us your secrets. Yeah, yeah.
23:41
So I think you're going to see a lot more unified commerce.
23:44
So I think though that's clear to see.
23:48
I'm I'm hoping that you'll see the demise of the I'm hoping
23:56
you'll see the demise of the large incentive for distribution
23:59
grab like I don't, I don't, I don't like that particularly.
24:04
So I think that's going to be a change.
24:05
And one with that will become a big change in obviously that the
24:07
market in in general. But in terms of a tech, a tech
24:10
play, I'd probably say AI is going to play a huge part,
24:14
obviously, and unified, unified commerce in terms of
24:19
communications and, and what's available on the pause, like the
24:23
pause, the pause, the smart pause needs to become a lot
24:25
smarter, doesn't it? Like it's not in, in a lot of
24:27
the antiquated acquirers, I should say the, the pause that
24:31
they're putting out there is it's not a smart pause.
24:33
It's a, they're miles and miles and miles behind.
24:36
So I think the I think the innovations that you'll start to
24:40
see on the devices will will really shape over the next
24:44
that's. Probably like a sign that we,
24:45
you know, the Android devices have been around for a long time
24:48
now. We probably haven't done enough
24:49
with them. I something I really love that
24:51
you guys have done through the Genie products, I believe is the
24:54
the merchant cash advance or embedded funding that you offer
24:58
in device. Can you tell us a little bit
24:59
about that? Yeah, that's actually a really a
25:01
really good example of what I mean in terms of the, the smart
25:04
device needs to be more, more than just a payments terminal
25:06
like the, the, the smart device in an SMA, in a small business,
25:11
it really is more valuable than the radio or the TV screen or
25:15
their phone even. They are getting information
25:17
passed to their device when they when they pick it up.
25:19
It's important that you know that you're putting a piece of
25:21
news in front of their eyes. And and what you mentioned there
25:25
about the the MCA like that embedded finance journey that
25:28
we've got with recap is, is a good example of that Like we, we
25:32
deliver a pre approved MCA directly to the terminal.
25:36
So like if you know you're working in that florist that you
25:39
mentioned and. How do you place that from a
25:42
staff point of view? So I work on the I'm the florist
25:44
employee and it would you like 20,000 LB like on.
25:48
The genie it's it's everything on the genie is toggle able.
25:50
So like for instance the merchant only gets the login to
25:53
start with. So they would, they would either
25:55
put a pin protection behind it or they would toggle it off to
25:58
say, I don't want my staff. And that's the gene.
26:00
That's the, the beauty with the genie is that every terminal is,
26:04
is configurable. I individually.
26:06
So you might say, you know, the people in the office, I do want
26:10
that on because I want them to understand when we've got an
26:12
MCA, but I don't want the people behind the bar to know about it.
26:15
So it's all, it's all that instant gratification of a of a
26:18
platform that that we think is really different with that
26:21
particular product. What do you think the latest
26:22
state of play is then? You know, because you guys are,
26:25
it's, it's great to see a platform like you guys
26:27
delivering so much innovative products.
26:30
The acquirers are probably looking sometimes slightly
26:31
jealous about how quickly you can bring that product to market
26:34
as well. How do you feel that
26:34
relationship with the queen acquirer ISO and then the
26:38
merchant and then that you know, we talked with other guests
26:40
around the merchant choice. Do they go directly to the
26:41
acquirer? Do they go for the ISO
26:43
ecosystem? Like, how do you feel that
26:45
landscape is it? Is it playing well together at
26:46
the moment? The friction, if I'm, if I'm
26:48
being honest, it's what we play on, isn't it?
26:50
It's what it's the whole reason we exist is because like the,
26:53
the, the acquirers, ideally, you know, we, we all want to be the
26:56
big boys, don't we? We all want to work with these,
26:58
these big acquires and if we've got tools and, and platforms and
27:02
software that they, they just love, but they can't get to
27:05
anything like it quick enough, then it's a massive opportunity
27:07
for the companies like us that can develop quickly.
27:11
You know, we're agile. We can, as long as we can get
27:15
acquirers to believe in the product that we're developing,
27:18
then it's a route to market for us was the way we see it.
27:20
So, you know, the, the genie, for instance, is a, is a good
27:24
example where the minute we, we show any acquirer, they, you
27:27
know that they, they all want it, but then they, they can't
27:29
move quick enough to get through the red tape to get it.
27:32
Do you know what I mean? So it's almost the only way
27:34
really is to acquire us, right? And then all we all, we get
27:38
wrapped up in that red tape, which eventually, I'd imagine
27:40
one day way into the future, might, might happen.
27:43
And hopefully maybe the the 9 million of Growth Fund can help
27:46
with that. So congratulations on that.
27:48
Thank you. How do you think that fund's
27:49
going to fit into the bigger picture of modern world?
27:52
There's there's two objectives really that we're that we're
27:54
really trying to trying to do is 1 always keep ahead of that
27:57
development curve. So we're always trying to, we
28:00
always want to be known as the ones that have got technology
28:03
that is, you know, everyone's looking at and going that's a,
28:05
that's a cool bit of kit. And obviously distribution.
28:08
There's, there's 2 plays really that we, that we really, we're
28:10
really strong on. And those, those two, those two
28:12
metrics. So that, that, that money over a
28:14
period of time will be invested heavily in distributing our own
28:18
products. So rather than, you know, rather
28:20
than pushing out a standard packs, a 920 with a packed
28:23
positive app on it, it'll all be overlayed with our own
28:26
technology. And I think you've might have
28:27
seen the free bits of tech that we've got in terms of the box of
28:30
Genie and, and tap will do, which are free, really, really
28:32
good bits of kit. So it'll be maintaining those,
28:35
developing on top of them and and distributing in mass.
28:38
It's at the beginning then of an evolution of you guys from a
28:41
solution provider to more of a payments as a service platform.
28:45
Yeah, I'll probably say that's accurate.
28:47
I think that this is, this is breaking news.
28:51
So it's what we're here for. I think you're probably right.
28:54
Like the, the, the days where we had a, an aggregator platform
28:57
that, you know, we were doing hundreds and hundreds and
28:59
hundreds of applications from a multitude of, of, of resellers
29:04
and sub Isos are probably probably gone because of the how
29:08
easy and accessible it is that the acquirers have made it for
29:10
these people just to go direct. They don't.
29:12
There's no due diligence anymore.
29:14
If you're doing 40 or 50 applications as a reseller, you
29:17
go and sign up with anyone. Let's face it and.
29:20
That's still like. I I think it's I, I.
29:23
Honestly, say it's my family sometimes and they're like,
29:25
what's the regulation like then? And I'm like.
29:27
There is none and we've got. Some, but yeah.
29:30
That that for me is, is mind boggling that people are allowed
29:33
to do that. We, we, we decline people.
29:36
So we do, we do a little bit of, you know, when the credit check
29:40
in and looking behind the scenes of these people, when people
29:43
come to us and we decline them based on what we deem to be very
29:48
good reasons. The next thing you'll see
29:50
they're popping up direct relationships with an acquirer
29:52
running around selling acquirers direct.
29:54
And I, if, if there's one thing that really gets me, it's that.
29:58
But I, but I also know that, you know, I'm not going to sit here
30:01
and moan about it. It gives me an opportunity to
30:03
pivot our business again. And I think you're right.
30:06
I think what in terms of payments as a, as a service,
30:09
software as a service, I think what will probably happen to our
30:11
platform is that we will integrate it far more into AI.
30:15
We'll integrate into far more banks and we will probably
30:20
almost sort of under a subscription service and then
30:24
we'll just give all the way all the residual way to the to
30:26
whoever subscribes. But we, we will give it to give
30:29
it to people that we know actively are going to do real
30:32
business and we'll forget about the, the, the individual
30:35
resellers, I think. Or defend my own partner
30:37
programs where I've been because, you know, I think we
30:39
have done a lot of partner due diligence, but it always has
30:42
been an odd one because we do so much merchant due diligence.
30:45
Yeah. But then the partners that are
30:47
bringing these merchants have kind of been, they have been
30:49
like a a bit of a black hole in payments historically.
30:52
I was going to ask you actually, I saw the news about your
30:54
partnership with Peterborough United Football Club this week
30:56
as well. Can you tell us a little bit
30:57
about that? Yeah, that was a bit of a that's
30:59
that's, that's a bit of a Eureka moment, really.
31:02
That was so I'm I'm a Peterborough United supporter, I
31:05
think. I'm a Northampton Town fan, so I
31:06
can't, yeah, I can't actually say that word, but I'm glad you
31:09
asked the questions. I never.
31:10
Told me that otherwise I wouldn't have been here.
31:13
So, so yeah. So I've been a Peterborough fan
31:15
all my life. We've got, we've got our
31:18
business to a size where now we feel as though we can offer a
31:21
little bit of support by sponsorship or what have you.
31:23
And when I got speaking to, to Alex, I was like, well, there's,
31:26
there must be something. Obviously we're not.
31:27
We're not at that point where we we just want to throw money away
31:29
and get. Nothing back, you know.
31:31
So we don't, we don't want to be like just put our name on a
31:33
shirt and expect nothing back in the way of business.
31:35
So I was like, there must be a way where we can do a
31:38
sponsorship that also supports not only the club, but also we,
31:41
we're very much aware that any professional Sports Club is the
31:44
hub of any community, isn't it? It's a central hub and, and with
31:48
inside that community, you've got loads of business owners,
31:50
you've got loads of sponsors. So it's like, well, why don't we
31:52
create some sort of wear a white label payments platform?
31:55
Why can't we, why can't we create a, a brand under your
31:59
club so that, you know, merchants get the trust that
32:01
they're dealing with a reputable company that they want to
32:04
support instead of us. So we've created Posh Payments
32:09
and then off, so off the back of that then rather than us giving
32:12
them a rebate like we would do a reseller, we deliver a fund like
32:16
anybody that Posh Payments would introduce us to.
32:18
So any sponsorships or business owners, supporters, for
32:21
instance, we would go in there, put the right solution with
32:24
them, but we would then deliver a rebate back to the football
32:26
club for the foundation. So, so not only are we
32:29
supporting the club with a with a sponsorship, we're supporting
32:31
local businesses with either cheaper rates, better service,
32:34
whatever it is that they want the right service.
32:37
But we're also then developed the delivering off the back of
32:39
that into the foundation to hopefully, you know, hopefully
32:43
help the next Harrison Burroughs come along and get some keep us
32:45
afloat. So I thought that was a really,
32:49
a really good way of sponsoring a football club with some
32:51
purpose and community focus and it give us everything that we
32:55
wanted in terms of, you know, a bit a bit of exposure, a bit of
32:58
introduction, a bit of business back.
33:00
Yeah. And we've, we've been live for a
33:02
month now and we've probably, we've got, you know, some really
33:07
big, big deals on the table that they've opened the doors for
33:10
that's. What you want from sponsorship
33:11
there, right, pays itself back quickly and then.
33:14
Well, the idea is that the, the, the, the revenue we get back off
33:17
the, the introductions will pay for the sponsorship.
33:19
And it's A, and that, and that model actually now, now that
33:22
we've seen it work so well with inside that our club, I say our
33:27
club Peter United is, is that, that that model really is open
33:31
to be replicated across the country in any Sports Club from
33:35
the Peterborough United all the way down to my locals bowls
33:37
club. They've all got sponsors,
33:38
they've all got business owners. And if we can, you know, that
33:42
would be the difference of keeping some clubs afloat, you
33:44
know, So we, we're really proud of that one.
33:46
It's, yeah, it's it's a nice one to have.
33:50
Fantastic. I think it's a great idea.
33:51
I think I've all the episodes we've done and spoken to people,
33:54
I think just the way you articulated that was was
33:56
fantastic and actually giving back to your community via a
33:59
sponsor that we're in business, right, everyone.
34:01
So I make money. But actually it's not just about
34:04
that nine to five hassle, right? It's what you're doing to be
34:07
able to give back to to the future, future CEOs and founders
34:10
of businesses. Yeah, well, this is it.
34:12
It's, we're very, you know, Peterborough's Peterborough is a
34:16
town that means a lot to a lot of people, including me.
34:19
I've lived in, I've lived in Peterborough for a for a long
34:21
time. I want to see people get value
34:24
for money in Peterborough and I want to obviously want to
34:26
support the club as well. So if I can, if we can help Eva,
34:31
then that's a win for. Me, you look at Wrexham and what
34:33
a football club can do for a community, potentially with a
34:36
bit of noise and a bit of hype and some good projects.
34:38
I mean, that's transforming that town, yeah.
34:40
And the news and Sheffield Wednesday does.
34:41
Ryan Reynolds watch this so I can maybe I'm.
34:44
Sure, we can tag him. I'm sure we can.
34:45
See his Die Hard wrecks. At that, he'll be interested.
34:48
He loves patients Ask me that he loves.
34:50
Bristol, he's been up for sale for three years.
34:51
He can go there. He's going to nick my idea now
34:54
any Ryan and starts but but we're we're pleased and we think
34:57
it will go. We think it will go further
34:59
afield than Peterborough. Fantastic.
35:01
Now, Warren, we come to our favorite part of the show, The
35:04
Shelf of Shame. If there's one thing in payments
35:07
or fintech that really grinds your gears, what is it?
35:11
Oh wow, I really should have read the brief, shouldn't I?
35:15
I didn't realise what's been said before.
35:17
Oh, we've had loads of stuff, A lot of fur things, yeah,
35:18
physical loyalty. Unregulated payment resellers
35:22
been like the unregulation of resellers.
35:24
There you go. Like when, when you said about
35:27
that and I, I, I am really passionate.
35:29
I'm really passionate about that.
35:30
I think that all, I, I think that we, we get regulated as an,
35:33
as an ISO and we try and and try and do best practice by
35:37
regulating the people that sell our product.
35:39
In my opinion, the PSR have regulated or have done the, the
35:43
18 month things irrelevant. If you've got wrong people
35:45
selling it, isn't it? I think you, I think the
35:47
regulation needs to be on on, on us to regulate people better.
35:51
And I think whether you're unemployed seller, whether
35:54
you're an unemployed seller like a self-employed seller have, I
35:59
just think that the unregulation, it definitely
36:02
needs to be on the shelf. It becomes a funnel as well
36:04
though, because you have an ISO that will go through an approval
36:06
process. But then that ISO could have 50
36:10
of their own referral partners, right?
36:11
Who's policing for 50 people feeding the intention?
36:14
Was there right, the intention was there, but it's probably
36:17
going to show them not knowing enough about the market, but
36:19
trying to put into regulation and and.
36:21
There's no policing for us like we, we, we've obviously when we
36:24
go through and get an ISO contract, there's obviously
36:26
there's due diligence and it takes months and contracts.
36:28
And, but, but in reality, we could employ, you know, 100
36:34
people that they don't, that the, the bank don't know who
36:36
they are, the acquirer don't know who they are.
36:38
And we've got, there's no, there's no regulations or
36:40
there's no stipulations on who we can take.
36:42
And so, and I, I, I just know there's people in working in
36:47
payments that shouldn't be working in payments.
36:49
And I think that the tighter regulation around that would
36:52
definitely help. I can't disagree with that at
36:55
all. Yeah, I absolutely agree.
36:56
I'm more than happy to put that I'm.
36:58
A high horse, but you know, it's, it's, it's changed, it's,
37:02
it's just changing the, the landscape a little bit for us as
37:05
a business. Yeah, Klaus, you've probably
37:06
worked with some people given the, the, the, you know, the
37:09
ecosystem that you had on this journey.
37:11
You've probably encountered some of those bad eggs.
37:13
Well. That's what I'm saying to you.
37:14
We, we, we must have trans. We must have terminated.
37:18
I reckon probably this year 50 and I know for a fact they all
37:24
just run straight back into another ISO and set themselves
37:26
up or, or or even worse, they go straight to an acquirer.
37:31
So we, we terminated one who who in fact one that's we know is
37:37
fraudulent and they've we obviously we won't ever go and
37:41
tell everybody, but but we know that they've gone and set up
37:44
with another acquirer. And passed all the checks and
37:47
got bored and. And and there is no checks.
37:49
This is my point. Like there's no like what's your
37:50
name? Just throw over.
37:52
The fence send an. E-mail and I, I just think, I
37:54
just think that if we're really serious about tidying up the
37:57
industry, which I think we've been, we've everyone's been
38:00
trying to do for the last 567810 years since I've been involved.
38:04
We can't do it without the aquirer's help.
38:07
And it's, it should all be governed by the aquirer like the
38:09
aquirer needs to put no. So I don't want to do myself out
38:12
of it, but I think the the acquirer really does need to
38:16
step up a little bit. So we need to.
38:17
Mandate who the ISO's resellers are or have some way.
38:20
Of I think they need to mandate the ISO to mandate whoever's
38:24
selling their services. So, and then they need to do
38:26
checks on them on on regular basis.
38:29
Like that's, that's, that's what I think has happened.
38:31
And I've got no problem doing it because we do it anyway.
38:34
But if you went to, you know, other Isos, I know, I know they
38:37
they might have a problem. No, I, I completely agree with
38:40
you. I.
38:41
Agree. Yeah.
38:41
And other than that, I think I'll go with that.
38:44
There's other stuff but I don't want.
38:46
To just one, we've had less. Yeah.
38:49
That's probably the biggest thing for me.
38:50
Well, but, but it probably affects me more than others
38:52
because it's it's my bread and butter, isn't it?
38:54
Yeah. Well, thanks for joining us on
38:56
the show. So where can people get in
38:57
touch? Find out more about Modern world
38:59
and. You can, you can.
39:01
I'm on LinkedIn, so most people would who know me already would
39:07
follow me on now I'd I'd imagine or our website is WWW dot
39:12
mwbsolutions.co.uk. If you're a partner that wants
39:15
to join our reseller program and if you're a merchant looking at
39:19
our independent technology products, it's WM wbs.co.uk.
39:23
So we've got 2 websites for different channels, but no.
39:25
Perfect. Thank you so much for your time
39:27
today. Thank you.
39:27
Thanks. I appreciate it.
39:28
It's been good.