Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / Gender Expression

Transcript

Gender Expression · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Hey, Teleraders, Listen is to al the men I've tolerated before.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: With Navlee Katona, your weekly look at everyday misogyny.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Today, we have.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Another friend, the algorithm Gods brought to my feed. Bij
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: is a film reviewer, writer, editor, co host of the
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: This Ends at Prom podcast, and a badass TikTok follow
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: She is here to talk to me about gender expression
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and how every day misogyny tries to keep us in
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: small gender boxes. Thanks so much for being here, Bj,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. Every day TikTok
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: becomes one of those devils that I partner with because
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I'm like, but it brings me such cool people like
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: you can't not participate.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Every time I think that the discourse on whatever is
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: the topic dujure that I'm going to just finally delete
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: the app off my phone, like I can't deal with it.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: And then I'll get like one video that is so
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: brilliant or so funny that I'm like, yeah, they got
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: me again.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Yes. It's like how I tried to quit Coca Cola
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: until the pandemic happened, and then I was like, well,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: if I buy craft soda, that's not real soda. That's quality,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: and then it was just a slow slippery slope to
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: downing five Coca Cola's a day. So I think we
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: should just start with letting you introduce yourself since it's
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: your first time here, so our audience gets to know you.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Oh sure, so yeah, my name is bj Colangelo. I
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: write a lot about movies, but specifically I love to
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: analyze the way that movies impact socially and culturally and personally.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: That's my favorite thing in the world to do. So
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: because of that, I am a chronic overthinker. Means I
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: think a lot about humans and society and in our
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: relationship to each other and the world around us, which
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: also means I think a lot about gender. I am
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: a very proud fat fem that is definitely part of
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: my identity. I'm a lesbian. I have a very very cool,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: gigantically tall wife named Harmony. She is a intentionally non
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: op trans woman. She co hosts the Sons That Problem
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: with Me, where we talk about teen girl movies from
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: the perspective of me, an apologist and her someone who
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: missed all of those movies. So we talk about gender
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: and misogyny and the patriarchy and all of these topics
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: like that's just like daily conversation for us because it
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: impacts literally every aspect of our existence, and so I
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: think I think about it a lot.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and that's why I just keep I'm like,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: how often can I comment on Bjay's tiktoks that I'm
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: right here with you here, I am.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I agree with all of that. You are allowed as
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: many comments as you would like. I will not be annoyed. Ever.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: It sure beats the people that are like, actually, I
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: think you're fed ugly and therefore you're not allowed to talk.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: And it's like, cool, guy, you wasted a lot of
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: time for me to just block. You could have saved
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: us both the trouble, you know, because the internet.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Again, in my mind, I'm like, the Internet could be
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: so perfect if we just didn't let white straight men
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: on it, and then it would just be ours. But
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: I I like, because you would. There was a good
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: point in time where every time I was going to
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: the movies, it was to see a movie that was
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: for queer fembs and you had seen it like a
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: week before me, because that's the cool perk of being you.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: And I was like, I have to save this because
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I haven't gotten to see Love Lives Bleeding yet, but
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: I desperately want to know. But it also like your
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: first sentence would let me know that it was going
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: to be everything that I wanted it to be.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: So I still got affirmed. I'm always happy to do that.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: My goal in life is to let anyone who is
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: even genually excited about queerfem cinema no that like, yes,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: we are good, or no, this is bad.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I saw Twisters over the weekend, which was not queer cinema,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: but the woman who plays Christian Stewart, the bodybuilder in
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Love Lives Bleeding, was a Brian. Katie O'Brien was a
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: surprise in Twisters, and I was the only person in
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: my group who had seen Love Lives Bleeding. So I
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: was like, ugh, and they're like, what you like? We
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: get double dose in that because we get Katie o
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: brian and we get Sasha Laine. So and I knew
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Katie Brian was in there because I'm a weird who
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: follows Katie Brian all farms of social media. I did
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: not know sash Lane was there, and I got very excited.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: I was like, we got we got two in this movie,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: and this very you know, historically masculine leaning movie.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Hell yeah, that is progress. Hell yeah.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I was like, good news everyone, Glenn pal not the
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: bad guy, not with these two on their team.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Good news. Do you don't have to feel guilty about
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: how good he looks in the rain? Oh my god.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: But I think we should also, after that brilliant introduction
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: to who you are and why you're so cool, talk
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: about our own experience with growing up trying to figure
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: out what gender expression means. Because as a child of
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: the nineties and the early adds, no one was talking
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: about what gender expression was or how I felt as
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: assist woman walking around.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: The earth with what I was wearing, or what I.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Was doing to exude femininity or anything like that.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: This is all very new. Yeah. So I have a
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: very weird and complicated relationship with my gender presentation, but
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: in ways that I think will make sense to anyone
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: who has ever seen what I look like. So if
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: you don't know what I look like, I'm on Instagram.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: My handle's my name, you'll find me. So I grew
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: up in very hyper feminine worlds. The two in particular
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: is that I was a champion competitive baton twirler, for
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: twenty years. I went pro when I was like nine,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: So that is a world of sequins and glamour, and
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: you know, it's basically if gymnastics and dance had a
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: baby and through stuff like that's that's baton twirling. And
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I also did child beauty pageants and a thing that
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I like to stress because the world of child beauty
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: pageants has obviously been dominated by toddler's and tiaras, like
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: very abusive sorts of organizations for children. I wanted to
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: do this because I am a forever died in the
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: wool theater kid, and we did not have community theater
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: at that age, but we did have you can wear
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: a pretty dress and staying on the stage and talking
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: to a microphone, and that was everything to me, and
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: that's all I wanted to do. So I was obsessed
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: with doing aageants and doing baton. But at the same time,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: I would never have described myself as a like quote
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: unquote girly girl like I loved Barbie and I forever
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: loved Barbie. But also I was like a gross kid,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: like I was like playing the dirt find frogs, disgusting kid,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: and so I always had very weird relationship with gender
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: where I loved wearing dresses but they were always filthy,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: or I loved having my hair curled, but by the
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: end of the day, it was always just like raby
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: and turn into a giant. My hair is a giant
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: nest right now, because that's just how it functions. And
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: it's very strange when you're in those environments because you
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: become aware of beauty standards, even if you don't have
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: a name for them. And this is like a very weird,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: kind of dark place, admittedly, but my first understanding of
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: beauty standards was when John Benny Ramsey was killed. Oh wow.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: And it was because I'm the same age, like we
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: were born the same year, and so I was doing
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: pageants and I would go to, you know, Walgreens or
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: the grocery store or whatever, and her fax was everywhere
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: on all of these magazine covers. But I didn't know why,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: and no one was going to be like, yeah, you
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: see that pretty girl she was killed, Like they're not
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: going to do that to me. As a six year old,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I saw her everywhere and I was like, why does
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: she get to be everywhere? I don't understand this. And
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I was in a store with my with my pageant coach,
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: and we're picking up a dress and I found the
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: stress that had like polka dots and I thought it
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: was so cute, and I was like, I like this dress,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: and she was like, ooh, I don't know about that one.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: It might be a little too loud. And then she
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: finds this like white dress with big puppy sleeves and
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: she goes, oh my god, look at this dress. This
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: is like a jambine dress. This is really cute. Oh,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: I think you should wear this, And like I associated
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: that dress and that girl in the magazines, and I
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: didn't understand why the dress I liked was not good enough,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: but the dress that she likes is good enough, and
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: so I was like, that's weird, okay. And it was
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: me realizing I don't fit into femininity the way like
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: this little girl does. And it wasn't until like, I
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: don't know, probably six months of this that I finally
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: was like, who is she? Am I gonna be at
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: the pageant with her? And my mom had to like
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: sit me down and be like no and explain the situation.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: It was horrifying. And then of course, like she was
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: very good and assured me, like, you don't have to
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: worry about this. You know, this was a very specific incident.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: It was a tragedy, like there's not like a beauty
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: green killer or anything like that, but you know, yeah,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: it's it's a sad day because she she was a
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: lot like you, and she did pageants. And that was
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: also the realized that like subscribing to these gender roles
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: don't save you, Like subscribing to what society determines makes
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: you like the best of the best in terms of
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: like American exceptionalism or whatever, which is just blonde, blue eyed, beautiful, perfect,
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: clean like all that it that still will not save you.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: And having that realization as a six year old wild
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: a wild way to then walk through the world because
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: it was a very hard and intense lesson and then
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: you know, you get to the two thousands and there's
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: just this massive backlash. It just fat nonsense. I've always
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: been a bigger girl because my boobs are the size
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: of people's heads, so there, even when I was, you know,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: conventionally thinner, my body looked bigger. Like this is when
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: we have rap songs where people are like terrified their
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: butt is getting big. And now we're in a culture
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: where people like get bbls and pay for their bus
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: to get big because beauty standards change. And throughout the nineties,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: in the two thousands, it was thin thin, thin, thin thin,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: and I did not fit into that role either. It
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: didn't matter what I did. I was never going to
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: fit into that brand of femininity. And then I was also,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: you know, still hyper feminine. I always like to say
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: that I'm a hard fem, like I'm feminine with an
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: edge to it. And that's when like antifem hate started happening,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: like two thousand and six through two thousand and nine,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: when people were like, I hate Megan fox Well, why
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: because look at her. I shouldn't do anything like you
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: hate because she's beautiful. Like that's antifem hate. Or like
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: I think people like Linday Lohan and Paris Hilton, they're
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: like dumb bimbos, and it's like what did they do
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: to you, pal, Like they're just young women having fun
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: and they happen to be wealthy. Like they don't have
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: to be role models to you. They're just living their lives.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: It's not it's not their job to appeal to you.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: And so when you grow up in those time frames,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: like it really will fuck you up, and it did
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: fuck me up for a very long time.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: We talked about it in our young adult literature episode
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: about how when we were growing up, all of a sudden,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: everything that was what we would consider.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Quote unquote, Oh that's so girlhood.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Was like something that opens you up to ridicule and
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: being made fun of, like you weren't meant to be girly,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: like no one wanted to be sharpay in high school
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: musical except for maybe me, And I feel like I
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: truly you know, I'm the eldest granddaughter on my mom's side.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: There were six of us core.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Cousins, and then two more would come later down the
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: road when I was a teenager. But my grandmother and
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: my aunts and uncles didn't have any time to treat
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: like girls like girls and boys like boys. They're like,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: there are six of you, roll around in the yard,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: do that, like be in the basement, play how you
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: play and do that. And it wasn't until my boobs
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: came in early that it was like, oh, we have
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: to start kating nadley like a girl. And I remember
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: swimming in my cousin's my older cousin on my dad's side.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: She lived in an apartment that had a pool and
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: we were swimming and she popped out of the pool
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: and screamed at my mom, aunt Cindy, you're gonna have
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: to get Nadley a bra soon, like the titties are in.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: And I just remember like the wash of shame coming
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: over me. I'm like, Number one, I'm already a fat
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: kid in a bathing suit. Number two like I'm eleven
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: and a half, Like what do you mean my boobies
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: came in? And how people started to change how they
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: would talk to me or like interact with me. One
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: of the first ways I remember being like, oh, that's
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: what it feels like to be treated differently as a
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: girl was when we had a friend that threw some
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: family circumstances. He had to spend the night with us
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: on Monday nights and then we would get him to
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: school the next day. And we were in middle school
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: or whatever, and I came down in my pajamas and
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: my mom like grasped my arm with like the fear.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Of God in her and where is your bra?
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: And I was like, we're getting ready for bed, and
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: she's like, you can't just be walking around the house
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: without a bra. Anyone could be over, anyone could be
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: looking in through windows, like kids are coming in and
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: out of our house all the time. You have to
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: be broad up at all times. And I just remember
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: being like why, It's like no, what, but it's not comfortable,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: And She's like, when you're laying in bed, you can
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: take off your bra. It's an end of the night
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: activity only that's very real though, Yeah, And how that
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: feeds into like my need to be like quote unquote
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: TikTok ready if I'm going to make content or something,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: or like how I'm going to get the mail, or
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: how I'm going to go to present by myself at
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: the grocery store to my mom. Presenting yourself in like
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: full outfit, full phase, brushed hair was how you either
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: got noticed by the right people or the wrong people
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: at least could accept you and ignore you while you
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: were like walking through life.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: And I think something else that I don't think it's
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: talked about a lot is the way that the intersections
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: of body type also affect your femininity, in the sense
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: that that women are not afforded the same realm of
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: femininity as people who are straight sized or have more
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: conventional body types in the sense that we are immediately
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: masculinized if unless we are presenting with some sort of hyperfemininity,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: because fatness is intrinsically linked to race, and we I
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: don't think we need to rephrase that, but like I
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: don't think it's a surprise to say that, Like, black
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: women are also masculinized regardless of their body size, so
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: of course that means fatness will also be masculinized, which
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: is also like the cruelest irony considering when people talk
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: about like androgyny, they usually mean removing any noticeable size
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: of femininity, which tend to be curved. So we just
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: live in a world of conundrums and hippocrisies and contradictions
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: all the time. But you're very much right, Like I
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: had a very similar experience of like I would have
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: my friends who are much thinner than I am. They
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: would just put on like a pair of sweatpants and
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: like you, roll the band a few times because it
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: was the two thousands, and like a spaghetti spaghetti strap
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: tank top, no makeup, messy bun and they could go
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: to the store. That is not something that was ever
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: going to be afforded to me if I don't look
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: like I am done up and clean. The assumptions that
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: are made about me because of my body, or that
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: I am you know, that I smell, that I'm gross,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: that I'm lazy, all of these things, because they already
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: assume that about me just because I'm a fat person.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: And when like, none of those words are things that
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: we ascribe to femininity. So unless I am putting in
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: the extra effort to present that femininity, I'm denied acts
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: to it.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and for the longest time, and it still feels
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: like this, But there's nothing that fat women can do
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: that's correct at any given moment.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: If I'm no, if I'm.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Wearing shapeless, baggy, uh clothing to hide my form, that's
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: not sexy. If I'm dressing too sexy, it's like who
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: does she think she is? And straight women or straight women,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: skinny women and people with more conventional sizes.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: There's also very little that skinny women can do right too.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: But it was always like the checklist in my head
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: to be like, did I brush my hair?
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Do I look like I at least showered?
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: If I can't do a full face of makeup, can
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I at least put on moisturizer or wear big sunglasses
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: And also like it also gave me this like fat
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: girls never say die attitude. So it's like, if we're
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: hiking at the dunes, I'm in a full face of makeup,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: and I won't be the first person to sit down,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: like if ever, I will wait until the very last
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: person is like should we sit down for a drink
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: of water? To literally collapse into that sand? Oh that's real,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Like I'm very similar.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: It's the summertime I've gone to multiple pool parties. I
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: have a full beat every time my head does not
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: go unto that water because everybody else can lose all
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: their makeup and you know, get out of the pool
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: and just wear their cute little wraps on and everyone's like,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: oh my god, you look so cute. The second that
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: my makeup goes away, it becomes way more noticeable, like, oh,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: I think that you are ugly because you are fat.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: At least the makeup highes these things. And to be
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: very very clear, I don't do this solely for external
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: validation or anything like that. I do this because I
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: really like it, and I'm also just I happen to
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: be hyper aware of the way I'm perceived in the
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: world on me, because you know that's also another thing
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: is that I think people don't believe that fat people
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: or in my case like also lesbians can express hyper
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: femininity without it being some sort of a performance, which
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, all things being equal, all gender performance is
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: a performance period. It doesn't matter if you align with
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: the gender you assigned at birth or what have you. Like,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: all expression is a form of performance. It is a
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: performance that we are just in control of. And it's
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: just very frustrating to know all of the outside influences
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: and the outside projections that are put on us for
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: the decisions that we make. And sure there are the
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: trad wife types that I think are putting it on
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: as an act that I don't think are feeling fully
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: like this is what they want or they've convinced themselves
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: that they are. There are absolutely people who subscribe to
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: to specific gender rules because they think it's what they're
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: supposed to do and not what they want to do.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: But I very much know what I want to look like,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: I know how I want to present myself to the world,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: and it just happens to be in a way that
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: also comes along with all of this other baggage.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I know while you were going over that I remembered
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: and I can't remember what movie it was, but you
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: recently got really cool eyeshadow that was themed towards a
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: movie or a show.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, it's Maxine.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, it was Maxine, which again left the theater before
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I could get my ass into a theater to see it,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: so I have to wait until it streams.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Deadpool and Wolverine, which I still will be
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: going to even though I'm petty mad at you, like
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: a petty man. But yeah, I and it's that too.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: And I think that that's another thing that fat woman,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: queer women, and now truly any woman or any fem
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: presenting human health is thinking about at all times, is like,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: how do I justify how much effort I put into
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: how I look today without being like, yeah because I
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: wanted attention, or yeah because I wanted to do this,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Like we're always playing this game of like, don't worry,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I didn't put on a full face of makeup to
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: look pretty. I just wanted to look natural like the Kardashians,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and and just like being like I'm too cool for
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: my own makeup and the justified justification of everything that
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: we do to express gender.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, because we're all expected to look a certain way,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: but you can't acknowledge why you look that certain way.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I've made tiktoks in the past before where it's like, hey,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: I I have nothing to say. I just looked real
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: good today, and if other people don't see this, it
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: feels kind of like a waste. But there are also
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: plenty of days where I just, you know, I see
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: like a makeup tutorial or some sort of thing. I'm like,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: that seems kind of cool, let me try that out.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: And then I'm just like sitting at home with a
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: full beat on playing video games and no one sees
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: me because that was something I did for me and
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I wanted to try it out. And I don't feel
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: like being perceived today. Other people don't need to see this.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I know I did a good job.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: A friend after I talked to her about our young
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: adult lit episode, she said, well, first off, through some
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: horrific over sharing, another friend had to alert me that
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: I was being groomed, not treated specially, And I called
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: my best friends of childhood and I was like, can
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: you believe that I didn't even pick up on that.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I'm thirty four years old. I podcast about every day
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: misogyny every day, and an outsider had to be like, Henley,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: you were being groomed.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: My god, that's not a cute story.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: And my best friend said, well, yeah, but think about
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: like the Princess Diaries and all the shit that we
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: read and watched as kids, like you have an insane
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: amount of main character energy, so of course you thought
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: in your head like, oh, this could only happen to
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: me because I'm fat girl Mandy Moore.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: And of course that's why I keeps talking to me
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: And that's how I feel like about the whole performance
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: part of makeup and dressing up or whatever I dress
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: too theme for whatever event I'm doing that day, because
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I am the main character in my own movie of
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: the day, which I'm sure TikTok would diagnose me with
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: something because of that, but it's what I'm doing, and
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I refuse to apologize, of course, and I feel very
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: very similar, And I've also had these kind of like
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: aha moments throughout life. I do not subscribe a universal
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: female experiences.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: I don't think that they exist. And I also would
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: like love for the people who are like, you know,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: weird turfs and transphobes, who were like, you're not a
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: woman until X, Y or Z thing happens. Why it's
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: always fucking tragedy and trauma and awful. Why do you
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: want people to hurt? People can say with that regardless
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: back on topic. One of the experiences that I have
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: found though, that many many people who were socialized as
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: young girls have experienced is that period of time between
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: like sixth grade and freshman year, when your body is
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: starting to be as weird as it has ever been,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: and you're starting to play around with you know, presentation
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: and gender. You know, you're dressed up to the nines,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: you're feeling good. You and your friends are, you know,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: walking on the side of the road going to the
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: skate park and somebody drives by and honks at you,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: and your instinct is not fuck that guy. Your instinct is,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: oh my god, he honked at me. We're so cute.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: And then as an adult you look back and you go,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I was twelve, and that person could drive a car
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: at minimum they're sixteen. That was not like a cute
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: story for me to have been through. That should not
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: have made me feel really good, but we're not having
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: We were not having those conversations to be like, hey, uh,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: if somebody hunks at you, they're a fucking creep, don't
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: be excited about that. We weren't having those conversations yet. No.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I think I was fully a sophomore in college before
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: I stopped waving at men who were honking at me,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: like hey, what's up? And then people were like, my god,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: what are you doing. I'm like, what am I doing?
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: That's a stranger look, and it's that whole Like, I
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: also believe that like winging don't fit the molds of
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: like classic Americana pretty, that the pressure that I put
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: myself under to still feel classic Americana pretty and worthy
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: gave me like a delayed adolescence to where I was
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: so emotionally and physically immature about anything that came to
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: like dating and sex and all of it that it
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: was like probably I was probably twenty five when I
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: shook off needing like constant validation from pretty from people
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: outside of my home that I was like pretty and
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: girly and doing everything right. And I still get caught
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: up in that, and that's my right.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Totally and you know, my boobs came in really early.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And then because of that, there was this reputation or
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: like this rumor or whatever that I was clearly a
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: slut because well, she has boobs, of course she's a slut.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: And I was very defined about it, and I was like, Okay, well,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: if you're going to say that I am, I'm going
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: to do it because I'm not gonna be called horrible
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: names and then not get the experience of like having
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: orgasms that are not being done by myself. So I
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: became hyper sexual very early. And I also so was
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: very confused about my sexuality for many years because I
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: had always thought that I was gay. Like as a
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: very little kid, I was like, oh, I don't like boys.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: I like girls one hundred percent. But then when puberty
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: hit and people kept saying like that I was, you know,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: clearly slutty because of what my body looks like or
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: the fact that I go by BJ, which of course
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: junior high kids have like a field day with stuff
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: like that. And then I like had sex with cis
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: men and it didn't like completely gross me out, and
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: that confused the hell out of me, because you know,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: lesbians are also socialized to be a certain way, and
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: lesbians are also told that there is a very specific
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: type of you know, the media tells like there's a
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: very specific type of woman that is a lesbian, and
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: it is like, you know, butcheres and masks and the
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: rose O'donnald types, and they think men are gross, and
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: that means if you are feminine in any way, shape
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: or form, or if you are not completely repulsed by men,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: that you can cannot be a lesbian. And we know
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: that that is not true, but in the nineties and
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: early two thousands, like, we were not really seeing any
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: other options of how to live this way, and so
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: it did like confuse the shit out of me for
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: a very very long time because there was no rule
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: book for this. There's no guidebook. I'm trying to figure
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: out a identity and a gender relationship and a sexuality
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: that exists outside of the confines of the guidebook that
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: doesn't exist. But we are all given a subscription to
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: at birth. And it was very difficult, and it wasn't
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: until like, honestly, when I went to college, like most
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: people like that's their experimental time, I went the other
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: way into that where I then became hyper aware of
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: how people perceive lesbians and queerness and the danger that
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: is ascribed to that, and I went very very hard
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: into like, I'm going to see, maybe maybe I'm not gay,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: maybe I am by, maybe I am paan, let's figure
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: this out and spend a lot of time with men.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: And it didn't enjoy my time. Like it was fun.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong, Like sex feels great period, Like
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: it just does. That's a physiological response, but like, emotionally,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I was very unsatisfied. I was very unhappy, and I
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: couldn't figure it out why because I'm like, well, every
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: everything I've ever been told should tell me that I
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: like this and I and I don't. But I also
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: can't be gay because you know, I'm the future toiler
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: for the Marching band, and you know I like to
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: wear dresses and I like to do these things that
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: can't be And it it took me until like my
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: early twenties until I finally was like, wait, some lesbians exist,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: and also you can be from lesbian and be really
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: tough and and and and figuring all of this it out.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: But it's like it should not have taken me that long,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: and I I don't know. I'm thrilled with the way
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: that I've been seeing progress happen. As evil as TikTok
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: is the ability to see so many other people, like
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: as a young person, Like a young person can log
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: on and they can see me and see my brand
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: of femininity, my brand of queerness, what it means, my story,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: how I got to where I am. And now they
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: don't have to go through all of that trial and
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: error that I had to. They're like, oh, nope, I
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: agree with how she feels about things. That's how I feel.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: I don't need to go fuck a bunch of randoms
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: in the Marching Band in order to like figure some
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: shit out.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I well, as you know, I'm currently going through
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: all of the like what does my sexuality actually look
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: like now that I've decentered men at thirty four, which
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: is exhausting for me, And I think that part of
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: that whole, like I'm the main character of the story,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I'm the main character of the movie, meant that, like
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I should be gifted an all American boy. Plus I
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: had a father who changed at me whenever he could
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: because one of my cousins got pregnant early in life
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: and unwed. So then that became like a huge turning
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: point for him, where whenever he got the chance, he
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: would chant at my sister and I. You graduate high school,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: you go to college, meet a boy in college, you
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: graduate from said college, you marry that boy, and you
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: have his babies, and it can only happen in that
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: order and will only happen in that order. And there
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: were no gay people around me and I my friend
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: put it into such big perspective for me. She goes, no,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: wonder you were so scared of being gay. Every time
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: a gay person was brought up. There was always like
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: yelling tragedy and violence to you. And I was like, oh,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: I was like, do you think that's what it is?
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: She goes, yeah, your brain linked, Oh, being gay means
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: that you live some miserable existence that Sarah Jessica Parker
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: described in The Family Stone when she was like, oh, yikes,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: they're death black and gay.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Yikes.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: A Roni and then Diane Keaton had to start screaming.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: And that's why I can't watch The Family Stone because
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: it's so stressful. When people are like the Family Stone's
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: my favorite Christmas movie, I'm like, no, it's so spectical
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, but it makes complete sense because I, you know,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: I've been speaking a lot about how like who's afforded
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: what access to femininity or what have you, and like
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: it was really really difficult for me to embrace that
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: I wasn't bisexual or pan sexual, which are totally valid identities,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: they're just not mine. Like, I've always been a lesbian
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: and I should have just listened to my five year
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: old self who knew out the gate, instead of wasting
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: all this time that I I did trying to like
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: fit myself into a box that one I was going
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: to fit into and two that I was never going
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: to be afforded access to even if I wanted it,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: because I also thought it was you know, there's there's
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: this lesbian box, and I don't fit into that. You know,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: how can I be a lesbian if like there are
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: so many men who desire me because we live in
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: such a patriarchal world that the relationship to men is
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: so prioritized and so emphasized that in order to break
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: yourself from that, like it takes a lot of work,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: and it takes a lot of intentional action. But you
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: can't make that intentional action until you're aware of where
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: you fit within it or outside. And that's hard because
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: there are so many external factors between you know, familiar
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: obligations or the media or friend groups, or where you
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: are at geographically. What access you have to people who
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: already exist on the margins? Do you see them every day?
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: And what's even weirder is that, like, I come from
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: an extremely affirm home. My parents have no issues with queerness.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: They have had gay friends forever, They've known trans people
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: for as long as I've been alive, Like, none of
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: this has ever been taboo in our household, and yet
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: it still did not matter because the pressures from society
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: in the world at large were so intense and were
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: so massive and loud it during my formative years that
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: it was hard to see the forest for the trees.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I because it just dawned on me that
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: every time I have sex with the man, it programs
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: me into being a trad wife. And I understood that
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: that was why I stopped having sex with men to
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: begin with, because I kept saying out loud, I don't
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: like who I become after I have sex with the man,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: because then all I can do is focus on that
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: man wanting to marry me and having his.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Kids, and as soon as he leaves.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: My bed or my home or what or my life,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: my brain immediately goes, we don't want kids and we
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: didn't want him on any of our PaperWorks. Stop letting
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: your touch starved hormones convince you that he was the
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: end all, be all. And it's because again, it's playing
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: that role of what everyone expected of me, of what
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: like society expected of me, and movies and TV expected
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: of me, and family expected of me.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: And when you.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Become a woman well into her thirties, who's like I'm
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: gonna stop dating men and literally date anyone else.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: You get asked a lot of questions like, well, are
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: you gay or do you just.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Have like a couple new gay friends and now you
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: feel like that would be cool? Or well, do you
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: want to date women or are you just like so
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: traumatized from your ex's you're willing to let them win?
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: And really gross things that still make that still give
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the messaging that like, sure, do whatever you want, but
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: it's still men at the center of all of these decisions.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean, and first off, like, thank
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: you for sharing that with me. It's like a very
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: brave and vulnerable thing, especially to say on a podcast
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: which is now going to be consumed by a bunch
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: of people. So I want to commend you for that,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: but it's very real, Like those sorts of scenarios were
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: thrown at me as well. When I finally was like, no,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: it's definitely not men at all, Like it's not not
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: at all, not even like a sometimes food like never
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: or not. I am a cookie monster, and I'm a
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: cookie monster for women and women exclusively. And there were
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: a lot of people that were like, well, that doesn't
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: make sense to me, because you know, you've you've had
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: so many relationships with men, and you know you've very
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: vocally had sex with men and seemed to not be
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: upset about it. So I don't understand that. And it's
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: one of those things where it's so hard to explain
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: because it's such a personal experience and you know what
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: it feels like, and it's sometimes hard to explain to
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: another person, like how to make them feel what you feel,
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: how to make them understand a situation that you have
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: probably spent more time thinking about than anyone else on
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: the planet, because it's you, it's your experience, and the
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: true freedom that I've had is recognizing that no matter what,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: there are always going to be people who are not
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: going to understand me, who are not going to believe me,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: who are not going to validate me. And that's fine
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: because that has been my experience with my gender, that
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: has been my experience within, you know, living in a
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: patriarchal society that no matter what, I will never be
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: good enough for some people. There will be some people
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: that are never going to be totally convinced of whatever
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: it is that I'm doing, and I don't need them,
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Like I think the true liberation from the patriarchy is
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: not needing extra validation in any form for the decisions
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: that you make. I'm aware of them, I'm aware of
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: how people perceive. I've just had to teach myself to
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: not give a fuck and do not care. And you know,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: a big step for me that I took this year is,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: you know, I went visiting my family. They live in Florida.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: We have a lot of pool parties. My sister is
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: a former bodybuilder. My sister's body is like the you know,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: the textbook conventionally attractive female form. And for many years
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: I would not wear a two piece around her, not
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: because I feel insecure, not because she's gonna make me
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: feel weird or I feel weird next to her, but
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: because I knew that it like made other people feel
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: uncomfortable and other people would make comments and other people
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: would have issues, and for me, like wearing a one
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: piece or wearing a with a cover up, that was
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: my way of just like avoiding that situation. Now, I
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: don't care now to wear what I want to wear.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: And if somebody's bold enough to say something to me,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: they better be bold enough to understand I'm gonna say
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: something right back. And a lot of times people are not.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: People don't think you're gonna say anything. They they go
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: learn and they did. But yeah, truly realizing that, like
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: the way I present myself to the world is for me.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: The relationship that I have with my gender is for me.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: The relationship that I have with my wife is for us.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: And if other people want to get on board, that's cool,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: and I'm glad and I would, you know, invite them
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: to it. If they have a problem with that, that
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: is a problem that they can work through on their
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: own time and their own dime. Because I'm not doing
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: it for them.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: I was thinking, because like on my outline, I do
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: have that like sometimes when you're fitting yourself into the
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: gender boxes that are pre subscribed by patriarchy, you're wearing
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: that as an armor. But how we don't even have
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: the luxury of it being armor because the first rule
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: of being like a female stand up is to wear
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: all black and to like literally dilute all femininity from
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: you so that the people in the audience actually believe.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: You deserve to be funny and all of it.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: And it's like, at the end of the day, I
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: should get to wear a prom dress up on stage
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: if that's what I want to wear. What if it's
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: part of my bit, because at the end of the day,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: it is all for me, and sweatpant days are for me.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: High glam days are for me. I think after COVID
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: people have seen my bare face more than ever because
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: I'm like, if we're just sitting at your house watching
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: a movie, you do not deserve my full glam. Like
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: we could be going out, we could be doing whatever,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: and I'm not doing full glam just to rewatch shit's
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: creep on your couch. And I it's this whole we
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: just did an episode. It was a very long episode
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: and a very long recording because me and my two
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: friends had not discussed the album before we got on
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: hot Mics.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: But we just did an.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Episode on the Tortured Poets Department, and it made me
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: realize that the reason why people are so mad, the
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: reason that men get so mad and so at Taylor Swift,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: is that she centers them in a way that is
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: detrimental to them, where it's like, oh, if you're constantly
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: telling us that like you were gas lit or abused
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: or sexualized at nineteen by John Mayer or any of
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: those things, that's still talking about.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Us, which we should love. We should love that all
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: of your music is about us, but it's about us
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: in the bad way.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: And now people are like, wait a minute, my boyfriend
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: also sexualized me when I was eighteen years old and
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: he was twenty seven.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: What the fuck? No, that's that's very real. And I think,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: like I like to call it the uh white clock
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: and a drum, which is that there are some men
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: who viscerally hate white cloth, and the reason being is
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: because it is the first time there has been a ready,
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: ready to drink like can alcoholic drink that is not
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: have coded as masculine, the way that beer is beer
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: and Bruce skis and all of that is very much
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: coded as like this is for men. Women drink cocktails,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: Men drink like you know, we call them gurly drinks
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: for a reason. And then white Claw came on the market,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: and it is a seltzer, something that is as like
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: fun and summary and is coded as feminine, even though
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: like literally anybody can drink a white Claw. It's just
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: an alcoholic seltzer. But so many men view that now
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: as a gurly drink, even if it has the same
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: alcohol level, if not more than most of the beers
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: on the market. But they hate it so much because
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: it puts women on an even playing field. They can
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: also play beer pong and drink white Claws. They can
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: pound a bunch of these drinks and keep up with
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: the boys the way that they couldn't if they were
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: drinking hard liquor. It bothers them, like it upsets them
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: because now we can drink as much and be at
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: the same level of you know, inebriation as they are.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: And so that extends to so many things in our world.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Anything that is coded as feminine, but puts women on
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: an even playing field. Men can stand it, and they
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: have to demonize it, they have to make it feel
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: lesser than they have to talk shit on it. It's
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: the reason why people, you know, our entire podcast this
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: since that problem is about teen girl movies, and we
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: acknowledge the fact that there is a void in cultural
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: criticism about these movies because they are viewed as lesser
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: than they are viewed as not as good because they
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: are quote unquote for girls, and so absolutely like I
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: am not a Swifty by any stretchedy imagination, I have
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: my fair share of criticisms of Taylor Swift the person,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: but in terms of her music is concerned, I completely
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: understand why so many people are so into it, and
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: I totally see why men are so against her. And
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: it's because she puts women on an even playing field.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: She gives them language they did not have to describe
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: their experiences and so now they can advocate for themselves
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: and men fucking hate it.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think part of the problem with me
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: just being like, wait, why was it I always on
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: an even playing feel as you to begin with, is
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: because I grew up with movies like Now and then
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: and as soon as a woman tells me like I've
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: never seen now and then I'm like what I was like, No.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: You have to watch it.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: It's the perfect movie and it has a banger soundtrack,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: and it's like I was constantly fed these teen girl
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: movies were the teen girls or the like adolescent middle
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: school age girls were in charge of their entire destiny
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: and we're just like running around and kicking Devin Sawa
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: but then deciding two days later you get to kiss me,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Devin Salwa and like being in charge the entire time.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: So again it feeds into that main character energy of like, oh,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I deserve all of this.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: And as soon as you because we talk about oh,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: we had.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: An episode about how misogyny rips away and demonizes female
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: joy because as soon as you go I deserve this,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: you're greedy and selfish and probably a whore.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: But if you're just like on the fringe of it,
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: like oh, I'll just be like one of these pool
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: girls who's just like kinda at the party, but like
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel like I belong at the party hashtag not
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: like most girls exactly.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: It's that it's the entire game that we play to
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: still be on the even, like the even playing the field.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: But now white claw, which I don't even like white
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: claw because it doesn't taste like soda.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: I'm one of those white It doesn't. It tastes, it takes.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: It's like chemical fruit alcohol, which fortunately I enjoy. But
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: I'm also a garbage person who was like, ooh alcoholic Sonny,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: do you let me try that? It's awful? I love it.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: No, my Like we were at the liquor store when
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Big Job's announcement came in. I was on buying liquer
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: for myself because every time someone would be like, what
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: about this, I'd go, I can just tell that it's
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: not gonna taste like soda, or if it's mountain dew
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: with alcohol in it, it'll ruin how meltain.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Dew is supposed to taste.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: Because I'm a garbage pale kid who can drink soda
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: straight from the box, I want everything to taste like soda.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Oh. I grew up with like fago, Like I am
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: a pop connoisseur, so I feel this. I love a
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: strawberry fago. Oh, I love cotton candy fago Because I
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: am bottom of the barrel garbage.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: One time my cousin's kid stole some like petty cash
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: that was on like my cousin's calendar or whatever. Walk
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: down to the corner store, bought candy, cigarettes and grape
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: soda in masks, and I was like, and that's how
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: I know that he's one of me. Yeah, that's a
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: that's a snack choice as far as I'm concerned, Like
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: somebody would be like, this is my snack choice and be.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Like normal, normal, that's dinner, that's girl dinner. That is
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: girl dinners dinner.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's this whole idea of now I think
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: that we are. And I've been saying this ever since,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: uh everything got so dark around January sixth and before.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Wait did something like really important, did like society change
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: forever then forever?
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: But also not like it's like we were all scared
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: but not scared enough. No, it's just that I've been saying,
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: I'm like, they keep throwing fits because we're finally getting
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: the upper hand of them. Like kids don't throw fits
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: because they're happy and everything's going well.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Babies throw tantrums.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Because they're hungry or they feel like you're ignoring them,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: or something in their environment is changing.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: In a way that they don't. Like. That's what the.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: Misogynists and the homophobes and the race sister doing. They're
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: all throwing their toddler tantrums because they can.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Finally see down the line that.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: At some point we're going to win and we're going
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: to be the majority, and we're going to start out
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: speaking them.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Like I refer to it as a death
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: rattle all the time, Like that's what we're living through, unfortunately,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: is a very extended death rattle.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: And I don't know, like as hard as it is
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: living through it, at least I might see in my
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: lifetime the death of it. Like if but the death
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: rattle is rattling, like maybe at some point it'll just
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: drop dead. And I get to see that and to
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: kind of hold onto that, like, well, if climate change
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: doesn't get us, maybe I will get to see a
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: female president who also doesn't take no shit from homophobes
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: in Congress and the Supreme Court and the Senate and
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: all of them, and just like actually see someone who's like,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take this office and maybe get us
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: universal health care and income because we're all people who
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: deserve to eat and have mets like who'd have thought,
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: I'm hope.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: Like, that's all I want to see before I die
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: is universal health care there, like, that's that's my goal
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: is to see that, because I mean, this is obviously
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: not like a public policy podcast, but like, there's no
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: reason every other developer in the world has it. We
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: have the technology, we can do it. We're just greed
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: and by we, the society at large is greedy.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk is greedy, and all of them are just
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: so greedy. I did want to talk about because you
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: brought it up that one of the ways that you
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: can see change coming in the way that gender expression
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: is expanding and becoming more accepted is through our media.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: And we talked briefly about Love Life Is Bleeding because
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: I love it. But one of the best examples of
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: this I have, and I'll talk about this movie every
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: day until I die, is the hyper femininity of Lisa
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Frankenstein and how she's my icon and every day I
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: just want to be her.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Oh oh my god. Okay, so I have two thoughts.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: I have a quick thought on Love Lives Bleeding, and
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: then I will gladly dive headfirst to the grave of
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Lisa Frankenstein. So my big thing with Love Lives Bleeding
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: is like, I'm so obsessed with that movie and the
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: way that it plays with gender, specifically with Katie Brand's
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: character Jackie, because she is a bodybuilder, but she is
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: not mask. She is not a mask. She is a
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: fem She has curly hair and she wears her cute
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: little crop tops and she's got big jewelry, like she
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: is a fem but she is a femme who is muscular,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: and like that intentional decision I think is so brilliant,
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: and it was making me a little insane when people
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: were like, I love it when it's two masks in love,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, no, no, no, that is if a mask
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: relationship by baby, that is what that is anyway. Lisa Frankenstein, Okay,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I'm so in love with Lisa Frankenstein as a movie,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: as a comedy, as a horror story. But the fashion
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: in this movie I think is going to live on
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: so much further than anyone had anticipated because it is
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: so good and this movie is such a great example
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: of somebody coming into their own and coming into who
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: they were always meant to be and express it through fashion.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Because when we meet Lisa like she doesn't know what
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: to do with her hair, she feels very uncomfortable in
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: the clothing that she's wearing, the clothing that very clearly
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: is her attempting to assimilate with those around her. And
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: the more she embraces the fact that she was always
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: meant to be this like weirdo with an undad boyfriend,
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: killing people for parts like that that was her destiny,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: which is a wild sentence to say out loud, but
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: you know what, it's movie logic. Get on board, get out.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: But the more she embraces the side of her, the
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: more confident she becomes. She gets her hallway walk scene,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: she is so much more comfortable in her body. She's
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: comfortable in her makeup, she's comfortable with her hair, and
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: she doesn't look like anyone else at school. And it's
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: not because she's intentionally being hashtag not like most girls
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: or pick me or whatever you want to call it.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: She's doing what feels good for her, and she's taking
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: risks and making choices that she never thought were going
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: to work for her. And I just love seeing that.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: I love seeing her just go all in on who
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: she is, because that's that's how we should all be feeling.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: It's not about looking like everybody else. It's about looking
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: like the best version of you, because you were always
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: going to feel the happiest when you are able to
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: do that. Yeah, and her name is Katherine Newton, right,
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: I have that correct in my head. It is Katherine Newton.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I just watched Abigail on Friday, so I'm like, I know,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: I know her name. She put her whole ass into
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: that role, like she was the perfect choice. Casting was
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: wonderful and like, give her an oscar. I should be
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: in charge of the oscars because I truly know what's
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: moving and like changing and it isn't three hours of
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: will they won't they drop this bomb? Like will they
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: won't they? Oh my gosh, the science of this bomb. No,
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: what's moving and changing and made me cry, made me laugh.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Maybe all of it was Catherine Newton, like arms, back,
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: chest out in a Halloween costume and of course it
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: being like this is me and I'm so confidently insecure
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: because that's also part of.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: My main character energy.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: And I loved her and I'm obsessed with her. And
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: I also am obsessed with what you said about love
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Life's bleeding because Jackie was not only in how she presented.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: She was like for a bodybuilder, she was so off
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: brand soft in the way that she talked, in her
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: mannerisms and stuff that I was like, I will protect
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: her at all costs, even though she becomes giant, even
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: though she just keeps getting bigger. I will stand in
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: front of trains for her. I will fight strange men
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: in bars for her. I was so indeared to Jackie
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: and love Lies Lady, and I think what's so wonderful
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: about Lisa Frankenstein is when, oh, no, Jennifer. I almost
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: said Megan because it's Megan Fox. When Jennifer's body came
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: on the scene and all the boys were like, Yeah,
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get to get hard for Megan Fox. But
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: then hater tomorrow after I'm done, because this movie is
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: all about her being a hot demon who kisses girls,
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: and it once again like centered men in the wrong
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: way that they don't like to be centered, where it's
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: like you guys suck, and that's why Jennifer wants, Yeah,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with you. Then it became this movie
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: that like didn't launch as far and widespread as it
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: could have from its release and had to become like
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: a secret cult classic. All I can think about is
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: like how Jennifer's Hallway Walk was coded so differently from
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: Lisa Frankenstein's and the reaction to it. Number One, not
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: enough people are talking to me about Lisa Frankenstein, So
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know if people are being rude about it,
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: because on my side of the world everyone is being
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: celebratory about it. But the way that people were so
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: rude about that role for Megan Fox and how she
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: was both unworthy for it but the perfect slut to
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: be doing it is it's such a It's such like
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: a little anchor part point of how we view women
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: in horror too.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: I genuinely think I could write a book about Jennifer's
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: body and its place in the relexicon and the way
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: that it was, like I use Jennifer's body as a
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: verb and to describe movies that were, you know, maligned
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: upon release due to external factor specifically like misogyny in
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: the Patriarchy, only to become reclaimed years later when people
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: pull their head out of the stand. Because there's a
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: story that carn Kusama tells about one of the very
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: first like test screenings that they did of Jennifer's Body
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: because that movie was marketed so incorrectly. They were trying
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: to capitalize off of Megan Fox's hotness and completely downplayed
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: the fact that that is a movie about best friends
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: and like the unhealthy relationships you can develop with your
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: best friends, and like about toxic masculinity, like it's about
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: all of these things. That was not part of its
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: marketing campaign. And so they do this big test screening
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: and one of the people wrote back in like, there's
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: like four lines of it, and they covered all four
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: lines with more bubesmar BWB like internet rot brain more bubs,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: And that was a note that that movie was given
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: that the studio was like, well, I guess we know
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: now how to get it. Like that kind of stuff
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: makes me crazy. Instead of realizing, oh, they're not thinking,
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: like they're thinking this movie is gonna be sexier than it.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: It's not. Maybe we should lean into that. It's like, nope,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: we have to. We have to trick them because that's
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: the audience. We gater all of our movies to bananas,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: absolute banana pans nonsense.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Well, and because when I was a teenager, I was
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: so like anti sec like like I was just like
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: an introvert about my sexuality and all of it.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: Like I did not date.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: I tried to like draw attention to myself, but then
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: like wouldn't pull the trigger when it came to be, like, but.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: What if you liked me all of it?
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: Like I look like I was just like an insecure introvert,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: Like no one wants to date, and that's fine. It's
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: the fate of every fat, chubby, funny girl in high school.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: And then one day my rom com will show up.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: I didn't see Jennifer, I know, right, I didn't see you.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: It's very cute, but I know so many people who
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: did that.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: I know I didn't see Jennifer's body because of all
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: of the marketing employees.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: It was like, for one thing, I was a big
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: slutshamer in.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: My youth before I discovered patriarchy and misogyny made me
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: hate an bachelor nation made me hate other women.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: I was a big slutshamer.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: So I was like, why would I go see this
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: back in slutty movie about slutty Megan Fox and all
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: of it. And I have begged on TikTok for this
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: person to find me because I can't find her on
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: any social media. But if you were my friend's college
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: roommate who made me sit down and watch Megan Fox
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: as in Jennifer's body as I played with her little
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: mouse pet, like please DM me, call me, find me something.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: I also believe that I, Jennifer bodied you where I
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: jumped the gun and abandoned our friendship because you were
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: about to like open me up to a whole world
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: of like bad assery and feminism and loving femininity and
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: all of it, and I instead shirked up and was like, no,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: I'll stay small and Christian adjacent and just wait for
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: a man to tell me it's okay to take off
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: my clothing.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: So please find me, tik top, help find me. I mean, like,
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: that's that's also just such a thing too, like what
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: you have access to when you what you're consuming, it
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: does have these influences on you. Like one of the
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: big things for me and I know we talked about
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: this off air was Elvira. Elvira was a huge deal
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: for me, and seeing woman who is so on a
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: apologetically fem but is in so much control and absolutely
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: like commands every conversation, every situation in her life like
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: that was a massive eye opener to me because I
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: was like, that's how I feel. That is the brand
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: of femininity that I have, where it is so feminine
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: and sexy, but at the same time, like I believe
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: that Alvira could like claw someone's eyes out, Like I
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: don't think that there's anything that is like soft about
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: her and Alvira. Cassandra Peterson, who plays Alvira, has mentioned
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: many times that she views Alvira as an androgynous character
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: because she's the inverse of what so many of these
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: like androgynous musicians, usually these men who are still like
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: very tough and sexy and angular, but they're very soft
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: and that affords them androgyny. She views Avira as the opposite,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: where she's this like sexy, curvy, you know, the out
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: it appearance makes you think softness, but she is hard
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: and she is very intense and she is very biting.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: She's like, that is what androgyny is, the of that
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: brand of androgny, because androgyny is a spectrum. Even though
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: we as a culture tend to believe that androgyny means genderless,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: and in that instance, nine times out of ten means
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: a lack of femininity because androgynist clothing is viewed as
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: unisex because we gender clothe. When we say we gender clothing,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: what we were really talking about is we feminize clothing.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: We ascribe feminine ideals to clothing, and anything that is
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: not feminine is therefore defaulted to androgynous, unisex or maculine,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: which is infuriating on so many levels. But and getting
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: to see her opened up my world of what was
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: possibility for my own gender presentation and my own relationship
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: with my feminine identity. And I, like, I truly don't
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: know who I would be without her. I would have
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: obviously discovered her at some point, but I discovered her
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: at such like a pivotal point in my life that
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: she was such a gateway to learning how to break
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: down my relationship with you know, all of these much
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: larger than me systems and issues.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh God, becoming a horror fan and then
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: becoming good friends with people who live and breathe horror
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: and have since they were very young has truly like
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: opened up my eyes about what's possible for women in film.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: And then I just like end up screaming at people
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: like everyone thinks horror is such a trash genre. It's
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: the only thing that's like.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Me.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: It's the only thing that makes me feel sing about
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: toxic masculinity and women feeling empowered and all of it,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: because again, they have to like center us in pain
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: or tragedy or in violent situations to first be like
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: but then don't worry because you're gonna get yours at
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: the end of it. To where like romantic comedies and
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: action movies and comedies haven't they just haven't done for
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: me what horror has done for me when it comes
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: to like women's studies and being like that is exactly
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: how I feel. Should I be in an elevator with
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: a die that I don't know, well, that is exactly
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: how it feels when I tell someone like this really
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: creepy thing happened to me and someone went, I'm sure
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: he was just a really nice guy who was like
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: watching you cross the street.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: Everything's fine. You should have said hello. First off, no gross, never.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: But second of all, I think about this a lot.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: I think about slasher movies a lot. The most. My
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: wife Harmon and I wrote a book called sleep Away Camp,
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: and it is through a series of books, through died
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: I books where we are assessing the film sleep Boy Camp,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: and its placed not only within the slasher canon, but
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: also as an unintentional queer text. It's all of that
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: fun stuff is And so I think about slasher movies
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: a lot, and something that I find very, very fascinating
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: is that overwhelmingly, the first installment in a slasher franchise
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: is largely considered to be the first one. There are
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: very few exceptions, but mostly it's the first one. And
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: in that first one, the story is often the plight
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: of the final girl, and it is her survival. You
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: are forcing the audience to look at a film through
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: the eyes of a young woman. You have to empathize
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: with her, you have to relate to her. You have
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: to treat her as the vehicle in which you are
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: going to experience this world and this terror. If you
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: do not buy into this character, if you do not
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: care about this character, if you do not see yourself
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: in this character, the scares are not as effective. And
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: those movies are the best ones. Those are the ones
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: that are very, very scary. As slasher films go on,
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: it stops being less about the survivor and it becomes
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: more about the weird and inventive ways that Jason Borhees
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: is gonna kill a kid, the weird and inventive ways
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: that Freddy Krueger is going to kill someone, the weird
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: and inventive ways that Michael Myers is going to kill somebody.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: And then the perspective shifts. Now we care about these slashers.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: We're seeing it through the worlds of the slasher. We're
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: excited to see what they're gonna do. And yeah, a
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: lot of these are really fun. But a lot of
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: those movies are awful and they're not good, and we
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: all understand, like, this is not a good movie, but
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: it's fun. And I think that it's that perspective change,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: Like it's so fascinating and it's the thing people don't
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: want to talk about. But like, the reason that those
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: first those first entries are always so good is because
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: you are forcing people to see themselves through the eyes
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: of a young woman. And then when you take it away,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: suddenly those movies get less complicated, they aren't as interesting
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: because we already live in a world where we are
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: forced to see everything through the eyes of a man,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: so we don't care anymore. And now it's just a
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: slee fun time. All that emotional weight is gone, and
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: no one has thought to to wonder why For KLJ Clover. KALJ.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: Clover definitely did. She's the author of Men, Women in Chainsaws,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: which is a vital text as far as I'm concerned.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: She figured it out pretty early. But I had this
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: conversation my friends all the time where it's like, I
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: think I can learn a lot about a person depending
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: on like which one of the uh, which one of
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: the franchises they truly believe is the best entry?
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Uh, I got The reason why I first realized
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: that Peacock is a wonderful streaming service that has everything
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: I could ever want and need, including all of the Housewives,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: is because a friend was like, these are my Peacock logins.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: I need you to watch. I need you, Elizabeth Kyle,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: friend of the podcast, I need you to watch the
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: last installment of the Halloween series, and I need your
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: running commentary. At some point, Michael Myers is a medium.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: He's a body snatcher. He's taken over some teenager's brain
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: and body. And I was like why. I was like,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: is Michael Meyers going to read my taro?
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: At some point? Why is he a witch?
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: When did this happen, and she goes exactly like She's like,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: we've just thrown it all into the wind and been
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: all like Michael Myers is a demonic witch now and
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: has always been, but enjoyed Jamie Lee Curtis for in
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: all of her glory, and I love Jamie Lee Curtis
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: and I would never want anyone else in those movies.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: But I was like, you guys, did Jamie dirty in
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: this movie? This is her last one.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: The thing that frustrates me so much is I love
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: both stories in that movie. Visually. I love Lori Strode
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: finally like you know, putting an end to this mayort
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: and finally like doing this. I love that story. And
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: I'm also so deeply fascinated with the Corey Cunningham story
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: and this idea that like Michael Myers is like this
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: infectious thing and like his evil, you know, was passed
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: through like like the like the legend of the Boogeyman,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: so to speak, like we are constantly inventing our own Boogeyman,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: and like this poor kid is being treated like a
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Boogeyman and he doesn't deserve it. So now you know,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: it's it's people telling me that I'm a slut, so
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: I become a slut. It's people telling him that he's
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: a monster and a freak, so he becomes a monster
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: and a freak. I'm so into those stories, but not
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: in the same goddamn movie. Please split them up. Why
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: do this, because now I'm like, I don't like the
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: movie as a whole. I love them as parts.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: I think Jamie Lee Curtis actually came across by Faid
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: on TikTok, where in an interview she explained it. I
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: think there's some clause written in the Lord that is
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Halloween or when someone inherited or bought the rights to
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: the Halloween franchise. They were like, you can never kill
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: Michael Myers. He is forever alive. There will be no
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: killing of him. And Jamie Lee Curtis says, Laurie gets
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: to kill him, like she gets to be at peace
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: at some point, and so they had to like come
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: up with weird ways aka a body stature for the
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: spirit of Michael Myers to live on.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Jamie call in, You're always allowed. Yeah.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: I love her. I love charitable.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: She reminds me so much of my Grandma pad It's
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: not even funny, like I just infectious, But.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: We should probably get to our closing.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: This has been a wonderful conversation and I could literally
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: talk to you about scary movies all day, so I'm
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: going to have self control.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Is what's going to happen all this meet is that
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: you're gonna have to bring me back in like October
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: and we'll just like talk nothing but spooky stuff.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, because I also like at some I was
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: making bracelets while I was watching Abigail because I need
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: something to do with my hands, and gen Con is
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: coming up, and I like the trick nerds and too
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: being my friend by being like.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: Here's a trinket, a trinket.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: Brendan Lue Mulligan has one of them a trinket, and
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: uh So I was like paying attention to Abigail, but
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: not as much as I would if I had seen
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: it in theaters. And at some point I was like,
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: my dad forgot to tell me that the twist is
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: once again, men are always bad. They're always the bad feeling.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: And I don't know what's going on with Dan Stevens's
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: career currently, but I'm in love with it. I love
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: the hard pivot he's taken.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Get ready for Cuckoo because it is real weird hour
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: for him and he is a delight. I got to
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: interview him last week and I opened it up and
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: I was like, I just want to talk about you
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: playing little freaks and weirdos, and he like lit ups.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, you are like on board. This is
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: your favorite thing to do.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know, email him, DM him, text him and
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: be like I was on a podcast today and she's
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: super proud of you, because again he was the beast
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: and beauty and the beast and then he sure was,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: He sure was, and he was that very that very
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: pretty man with soft hands and Downton Abbey and now
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: and now he's the burnout in the new Godzilla King
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: KHN movie. And I was like, Dan Evans, did you
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: get new representations? What happens? I love it. I'm here
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: for it.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: I will say this is my last recommendation if you
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: have not seen him in the Guest, which is a
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: movie he did a while that not a lot of
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: people saw, which is directed by the team from Godzilla
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: x Kong. And also why his name in Abigail is
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: Adam Barrett because it's a combination of Adam Engard and
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: Simon Barrett. But the guest is what put him on
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: the map in terms of like genre stuff. It is
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: about him. He is a former soldier. He returned home
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: to his deceased comrades family to be like, hey, before
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: he died, he told me that I needed to come
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: check in on you and make sure that you know
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: the family's okay. And the family's like, oh my god,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: this charming soldier who knew our son. Of course, yeah,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: come into our home. And turns out he is essentially
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: like a human terminator and it turns into like a
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: crazy action like horror thriller Tim and Mike and Monroe
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: and it's fantastic and not enough people have seen it.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: And he is also like grossly sexy in this movie
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: in a way I just saw his chest. Yeah, it's
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: a lot, it's a lot, but it is a phenomenal movie.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: And it's also the movie that establishes the relationship that
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: would like the creative relationship that would then lead him
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: into playing so many of these weird old roles. So
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: recommend that one also great female protagonist Mike Monroe is
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: great in that movie, and a banger of a soundtrack.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: Damn all right, well Dan, I very rarely get out
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: a mic and be like, you know who, I'm proud
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: of a man, But I'm proud of you, Dan Stevens.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: And now I want to talk to you for an
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: hour about the King Kong Goadzilla movie because I thought
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: it was beautiful. I was like, this is Oscar Oscar,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: give this, this is a beautiful story. But we should
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: move on to our last little closing out ceremony where
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: we give the audio. It's kind of a like, yeah,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: we went through all of this, and we went through
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: all of this because misogyny and patriarchy we're always playing
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: a secret part in our lives, even before we knew
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: the vocabulary. But this is what we learned, and this
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: is what we would like you to take away, and
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: then we manifest for what we hope for better when
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: it comes to gender expression and sexuality and women and
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: people getting to just express whatever they want to express
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: when it comes to gender performance or gender identity. So
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: what do you think has been your cherry on the
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: top Sunday Lesson, Like, if I had to go through
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: all of this, at least I learned blank.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: If I had to go through all of this, at
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: least I have learned that external validation in all forms
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: is a prison, and the best thing that you can
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: do for yourself is to free yourself from the needs
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: of external validation, not just from men, because obviously that
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: is the patriarchy at work, but literally anyone else, because
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: everyone else is also influenced by the patriarchy, even if
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: it is subconsciously. So the second that you learned that
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: you do not need anyone else's opinion or approval, you
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: will find so much peace and happy and joy. And
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: the best part is that it will all be on
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: your terms.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: I love that, because now my lesson it's to be
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: that when I was a young woman who was accused
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: by her family at all times of being vain and
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: selfish and full of vanity and only caring about myself,
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: and I would scream at the top of my lawns,
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: well it's because I know, ain't nobody gonna love me
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: like I love me.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: That was actually personal growth and I was actually evolved. Yeah,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: your playing your work. They are two thousand and late
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: in this one.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: I cannot wait to tell everyone I know. It turns out,
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: once again, I've never been wrong a day in my life,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: because again, another huge lesson that we've learned fro misogyny
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: and patriarchy is the biggest tool as an oppressed person
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: you can have in your belt is to actually love
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: yourself and have nothing to do with them, because they
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: hate it when we love ourselves.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: It's the biggest way to dig at them. Yeah, they
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: can't do anything. You cannot shame the shameless. No, you
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: truly can't. And it's why I'm the woman I am today.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: What would you like to manifest for the general collective
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: and the universe when it comes to gender expression or
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: anything that we've talked about today.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: The thing that I would love to manifest is that
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: people break themselves away from the idea that leaning it
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: to rabinity is inherently leaning into the patriarchy, because to
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: do so means to give them power. So the more
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: that we can understand that being hyperfem being high fem
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: is not and like it is not an equal sign
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: to perpetuating patriarchy, the more peace we will also have
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: within our own communities.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, every time I put six plus colors on my eyelids,
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: it's not because I wanted a man to make me
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: feel worthy that day.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: It is impact because I have.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: ADHD and I needed to do something with my hands,
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: and I couldn't find any of my coloring books, so
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: I colored on my face to make myself feel like
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: all of that money I spent at color Pop was
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: worth it. But yeah, like I would just love again.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: I would like, I would like to manifest that one
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: day I'm in charge of the oscars.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: And I would just like, I would just love.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: If I could continue this energy of it all gets
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: to be celebrated as long as you're not a hater.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: So like hyper Femme celebrated androgyny in all of its forms,
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: celebrated if we could just keep partying because we know
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: that it pisses off the patriarchy, then we would start
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: getting awards and accolades and movement.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: And if we would, and I would love for us
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: to give up.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: The trauma and tragedy is what formed my girlhood and
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: that's what makes me a woman trope because.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: You gross, I would have.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: Loved it if girlhood for anyone trans women, sis women,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: queer women, straight women was just fucking unicorns and lollipops
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: like they promised us it would be.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: But instead we.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: Have this warped idea of like it's all about heartache
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: and then breaking you and then rising above and being
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: tough through it, but also crying in the shower to
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: an Adele song. Gross, I want unicorns and long leipops,
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: but also Adele.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: Nothing better than like Adele plus candy.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: That's great, Honestly, honestly, thank you so much for being
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: here again. I knew that this was going to be
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: one of the best hours, hour and a half of
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: my existence on this podcast and on this earth, because
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: you're so fucking cool.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: If I haven't made that appear, thank you. I like
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: to tell people that I'm like, incredibly cool and very
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: niche markets me too.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: I've been writing, I've been writing stand up bits, and
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: I'm like, is this going to be funny or is
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: this only going to be funny to Annie because we
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: shared the same dark soul. Someone will like it. But
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: make sure that my audience can go follow you on
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: TikTok social media and this ends at prom and all
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: of your work because it's fucking cool.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I'm very easy to find because my
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: social handle and everything is just my name. It's just
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: bj Clangelo and all of the is just at this
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: endset prom again. We're making it nice and easy for
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: people to find.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: Me, and don't forget We're at Instagram. We're on Instagram
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: at men I've tolerated pod nat Ley K one two
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: four on TikTok and Instagram two and Patreon at two
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: all the men I've tolerated before, where I tell you
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: all of the really juicy secrets that would make my
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: grandmother ashamed of me if I put them on the internet,
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: but I did, just behind the paywall. You have to
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: pay for the grandma's shame secrets. And remember, tolerators, you
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: don't have to smile through anything you're tolerating, including.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: A world that will tell you that al virus. Your
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: career was.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: Built on the backs of men getting hard for her,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: when it was really built on her being a fucking
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: badass who wanted to kick out tropes and blur lines
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: and be an androgynoust queen. I can't believe I nailed
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: saying that. Forever and for always smiles there for joy