Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1003 When the 3 E's Don't Work

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#1003 When the 3 E's Don't Work · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.
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  Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now. Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. Welcome to the
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  Speaker 2: Happy Families Podcast. We're so glad to have you here.
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  Speaker 2: I'm here with Kylie, my wife and mom to our
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  Speaker 2: six daughters. Kylie. Normally, on a Monday, we don't do this,
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  Speaker 2: but we received an email to podcasts at happyfamilies dot
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  Speaker 2: com dot you. We prefer voice messages from happy families
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  Speaker 2: dot com dot you on the podcast's link. You just
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  Speaker 2: press the button and talk to us. That's what we prefer.
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  Speaker 2: But this was such a good question that even though
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  Speaker 2: it came y ourn email, we decided we were going
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  Speaker 2: to answer it today. Anyway, tomorrow normal questions as per usual,
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  Speaker 2: but today a question from somebody who is really struggling,
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  Speaker 2: and I thought it would be good to have you
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  Speaker 2: involved in the conversation as well. Why don't you.
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  Speaker 1: Listen because I actually thought you had written this question.
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  Speaker 2: No, no, no, this comes from someone called Krinne. It
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  Speaker 2: was Karinn who asked the question, not me.
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  Speaker 1: Kaarem said, we're currently facing difficulties with our ten year
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  Speaker 1: old daughter.
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  Speaker 2: Now I know why you thought that I wrote that.
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  Speaker 1: She's exhibiting a strong sense of stubbornness, particularly when it
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  Speaker 1: comes to setting boundaries. Instead of engaging in discussions about
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  Speaker 1: why we've established certain limits, she reacts with screaming an
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  Speaker 1: outright refusal to listen. Even when we attempt to discuss
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  Speaker 1: the matter calmly, she becomes defensive and refuses to communicate.
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  Speaker 1: We're open to hearing her perspective and providing her with autonomy,
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  Speaker 1: but she seems unwilling to engage in dialogue. Despite our
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  Speaker 1: efforts to address the issue at a more suitable time,
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  Speaker 1: she persists in avoiding the conversation altogether. She often responds
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  Speaker 1: with I just want to be left alone. We're trying
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  Speaker 1: to build connection to enable these conversations, but she just
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  Speaker 1: doesn't want to connect. We're seeking guidance on how to
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  Speaker 1: effectively communicate with her and navigate these challenging moments.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so what do you do when the three e's
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  Speaker 2: don't work? Kylie? For those who are not familiar with
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  Speaker 2: the three is of effective discipline, this is a model
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  Speaker 2: that I developed about ten years ago now, maybe more
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  Speaker 2: based on the work that's been done in self determination theory.
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  Speaker 2: Where we're trying to support children's basic psychological needs. And
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  Speaker 2: the way we do that, of course, is by having
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  Speaker 2: them to feel like there is a positive relationship between
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  Speaker 2: the two of us, says connection, by helping them to
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  Speaker 2: identify how they can be competent, by giving them a
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  Speaker 2: reasonable structure for how to move forward, and by supporting
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  Speaker 2: their autonomy, that is, by giving them the opportunity to
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  Speaker 2: develop solutions that are in harmony with their values. And
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  Speaker 2: this is the critical thing. A lot of people think
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  Speaker 2: that autonomy means giving the kids free rein but autonomy
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  Speaker 2: means that I'm acting volitionally. I know what I value,
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  Speaker 2: I know what's important. I'm acting in that direction. We've
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  Speaker 2: got kids who from time to time have made it
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  Speaker 2: very clear that they don't want to engage in a
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  Speaker 2: three ease conversation. They don't want us to explore their
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  Speaker 2: world explain. We expect and empower them to find solutions.
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  Speaker 2: That's what the THREEE model is because it supports those
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  Speaker 2: basic psychological needs before we dive into any of the
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  Speaker 2: answers that I've started to put together for this podcast,
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  Speaker 2: what's your typical response when the kids don't want to
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  Speaker 2: dive into a three e's conversation with us.
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  Speaker 1: Over the years, I have discovered that time is a
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  Speaker 1: really important friend. With these conversations, Allowing our kids the
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  Speaker 1: space that they need to kind of just have some
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  Speaker 1: time away is important, but it's also important for me
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  Speaker 1: as well. I get really really caught up in wanting
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  Speaker 1: to fix things in the moment without recognizing that sometimes
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  Speaker 1: things don't get fixed in the moment.
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  Speaker 2: Right and the whole thing there. Really, this is pretty
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  Speaker 2: much where I was going to go anyway, and I'm
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  Speaker 2: so glad that you said it. Fundamentally, the reason that
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  Speaker 2: we need to give enough time and not always fix
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  Speaker 2: things in the here and now right here, We've got
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  Speaker 2: to talk about it, we've got to sort it out.
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  Speaker 2: We need to know where we're going from this point on.
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  Speaker 2: The reason is that equation that I developed a number
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  Speaker 2: of years ago as well, which is that high emotions
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  Speaker 2: equals low intelligence. That is, the more emotional you are,
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  Speaker 2: the more stupid you are. And that's what happens with
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  Speaker 2: our kids, and it happens with us. The more emotional
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  Speaker 2: we get, the less able we are to have a
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  Speaker 2: reasonable conversation and find solutions. And ultimately, what we're trying
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  Speaker 2: to do is that's what discipline is, right. Discipline ultimately
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  Speaker 2: is helping the kids to find appropriate solutions so that
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  Speaker 2: we don't keep on having these these challenges and these difficulties.
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  Speaker 1: So I guess, as an add on to that, the
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  Speaker 1: acknowledgment is that sometimes time is a few minutes, sometimes
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  Speaker 1: it's a few hours, sometimes it's a few days, and
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  Speaker 1: sometimes it's a few weeks.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you've kind of skipped to the very bottom of
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like of all the things that I've got,
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  Speaker 2: So here's my wrap up, let's go straight to the
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  Speaker 2: end and then we'll sort of fill in the middle.
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  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I mean the three things that I was
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  Speaker 2: going to say at number one. You don't have to
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  Speaker 2: do the three e's all the time. Like sometimes it's
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  Speaker 2: okay to step in his parents say, I'd love to
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  Speaker 2: explore and explain it in the power, but this is
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  Speaker 2: just what we need to do. And as the parent,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to be the prefrontal cortex and I'm just
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  Speaker 2: going to make this stuff happen. Okay, we don't want
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  Speaker 2: to do that very often, but from time to time,
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  Speaker 2: as a parent, you just do have to be the mean,
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  Speaker 2: cranky parent that gets stuff done.
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  Speaker 1: But I don't even think it's about being mean and
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  Speaker 1: kind of being forceful in the conversation.
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  Speaker 2: I use the wrong words. It's really about holding a boundary.
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes as a parent, you just have to say, I
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  Speaker 2: know you're sad, I know you don't want to do this,
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  Speaker 2: but this needs to be done.
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  Speaker 1: Some conversations are just hard, right They're hard. They're hard
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  Speaker 1: as an adult, let alone being a child. And the
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  Speaker 1: acknowledgment for me as a mum is I know you
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  Speaker 1: don't want to have this conversation, but when we're part
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  Speaker 1: of a family, sometimes we have to do these hard things.
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  Speaker 1: And I love how our family feels when we do X,
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  Speaker 1: Y and Z, But right now it doesn't feel great.
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  Speaker 1: Can you think about why it doesn't feel great and
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  Speaker 1: how we might work together to make it feel great again?
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  Speaker 2: And again. If you've got really high emotion, that's probably
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  Speaker 2: not going to work well because the kids are not
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  Speaker 2: going to play the game, they're not going to get
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  Speaker 2: involved in it. But so long as emotions are lower,
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  Speaker 2: you can definitely do that. I guess my point really though,
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  Speaker 2: is you don't have to always do three is if
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  Speaker 2: you did, you would be exhausted, and so saying the
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  Speaker 2: second point, though, is you can do the threes in
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  Speaker 2: thirty seconds. It doesn't have to be a long drawn
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  Speaker 2: out session. So so long as emotions are cool, you
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  Speaker 2: can say, all right, I know that you don't want
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  Speaker 2: to clean up the house. I know that it just
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  Speaker 2: feels like it's so burdensome. Is there anything else? Like,
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  Speaker 2: is there any other reason that you just don't want
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  Speaker 2: to be participating in helping right now? And listen, But
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  Speaker 2: because I want to play games? Okay, I get it.
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  Speaker 2: Everyone wants to play games. That's fair enough. We need
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  Speaker 2: to work together. Now you've gone from explore to explain
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  Speaker 2: we need to work together. What do you think we
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  Speaker 2: can do to make this happen in a way that
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  Speaker 2: we can all feel good about it, Like you can
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  Speaker 2: get that done in thirty seconds, in twenty seconds. It
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  Speaker 2: just takes practice. And this is the big thing with
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  Speaker 2: the three e'es or any other parenting model. Everything takes
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  Speaker 2: practice compared to yelling, time out, smacking and doing the
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  Speaker 2: old old school style of parenting.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So with our ten year old, one of the
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  Speaker 1: conversation pieces I have with her is I want you
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  Speaker 1: to be able to do that too. We've just got
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  Speaker 1: to get this done. So how can we work together
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  Speaker 1: to get this done quickly so you can get back
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  Speaker 1: to that.
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  Speaker 2: And so long as she's not emotional, we get good responses.
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  Speaker 2: If she is emotional, it takes four hours. Yes, And
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  Speaker 2: I think that's the reality, right. You said this already.
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  Speaker 2: But as I said, the very last point that I
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  Speaker 2: was going to make in this podcast, and we're making
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  Speaker 2: it sort of halfway through, is sometimes it will take
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  Speaker 2: weeks or more to get a resolution because emotions can
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  Speaker 2: be really big. And while the process is not flawed,
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  Speaker 2: our practice is, and our brains are, and our emotions are,
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  Speaker 2: and our children are, and we are Therefore. I remember
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  Speaker 2: one of the big blops that we had in our
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  Speaker 2: home without firstborn, when she was only about thirteen or fourteen,
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  Speaker 2: revolved around her dishonesty with technology use, and she lost
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  Speaker 2: her access to devices for a little while until we
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  Speaker 2: were able to resolve the issue. She was so emotional
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  Speaker 2: every time we talked about it, and I would say,
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  Speaker 2: we can't have the conversation when you're emotional. Let's try
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  Speaker 2: again tomorrow, and I reckon it took three months. Maybe
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  Speaker 2: it wasn't that long, maybe it was six weeks, but whatever,
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  Speaker 2: it was. It took a long time before she was
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  Speaker 2: finally able to regulate her emotions enough to have a
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  Speaker 2: conversation sensibly where we could come up with a solution
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  Speaker 2: that we could feel good about. I think this is
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  Speaker 2: the critical thing, Like, our kids need time to digest it.
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  Speaker 2: They need time to work out what they value, especially
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  Speaker 2: especially if you're dealing with neurodivergent kids, right like if
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  Speaker 2: neudiversity is in your home, the new concepts and new
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  Speaker 2: ideas can take a long time to digest. There's a
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  Speaker 2: lot of rigidity, there's a lot of certainty, there's a
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  Speaker 2: lot of my way or no way going black and white, absolutely,
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  Speaker 2: and so we've just got to be willing to sit
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  Speaker 2: in that uncomfortable space and wait for the kids to
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  Speaker 2: work through this, to figure this stuff out.
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  Speaker 1: There are a couple of other things you did want
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  Speaker 1: to talk about, but I stole you under and we're
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  Speaker 1: kind of started from the end to the beginning again,
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  Speaker 1: so let's have a chat about them. I think one
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  Speaker 1: of the most important things that I have learned with
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  Speaker 1: our ten year old specifically, is information overload. I have
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  Speaker 1: conversations with her and I think it's really clear, and
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  Speaker 1: you know, pretty concise the things that I want her
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  Speaker 1: to understand, and she has gotten so good at articulating,
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  Speaker 1: and she will say in those moments, Mum, you're talking
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  Speaker 1: too much. Like literally, those are her words, Mum, you're
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  Speaker 1: talking too much. I can't I can't take it all in.
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  Speaker 1: And at that point she's pretty she's pretty intense overloaded.
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  Speaker 1: But I really appreciate that she's able to say it,
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  Speaker 1: because when she says it, I go, oh, take a
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  Speaker 1: step back. Okay, let's let's let's go back to the beginning,
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  Speaker 1: or let's just leave things for a little while. You
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  Speaker 1: need some time to regulate. I need some time to
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  Speaker 1: give you a hug, whatever it takes, so that we
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  Speaker 1: don't have that emotional overload.
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  Speaker 2: So the short version of what you just said is
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  Speaker 2: be really clear in your own mind about what you
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  Speaker 2: want to communicate, and then get in and out as
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  Speaker 2: fast as you can felt like it to be is more,
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  Speaker 2: don't give too much information. A couple of other things,
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  Speaker 2: be okay with your kids being uncomfortable, and be okay
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  Speaker 2: with being a bit uncomfortable yourself. Sometimes as a parent,
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  Speaker 2: you just do have to hold back ground until your
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  Speaker 2: child gets the point. Kids need limits, boundaries, structure, framework
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  Speaker 2: systems to follow so that they can feel confident and safe,
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  Speaker 2: and if they're pushing against that, it's normal, that's what
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  Speaker 2: they do. Be okay with their discomfort. You don't have
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  Speaker 2: to fix their emotions early in our relationship. I'm not
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  Speaker 2: too early. Sort of a dozen years ago or something.
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  Speaker 2: I remember saying to you, I'm not going to be
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  Speaker 2: upset just because you are, and that I could have
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  Speaker 2: said it nicer. I didn't say it the best way possible.
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  Speaker 2: I kind of blew it that way. But what I
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  Speaker 2: was essentially saying is I'm not responsible for whether you
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  Speaker 2: feel lousy or not, because I wasn't in that case.
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  Speaker 2: It's not like I'd done something. You were just having
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  Speaker 2: a blue sort of week. Therefore, I'm not going to
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  Speaker 2: feel bad because you're feeling bad. I'm going to be
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  Speaker 2: supportive and loving and caring and empathic and I want
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  Speaker 2: you to feel good. But if you're having a bad day,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to let that ruin mine.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm going to kind of just twist your words
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  Speaker 1: a little bit there. Because the one thing that I
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  Speaker 1: really felt so important, and it's something that was not
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  Speaker 1: modeled to me as a child, but the acknowledgment that
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  Speaker 1: when our children are in those hard spaces and there
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  Speaker 1: is a misalignment in values as we kind of navigate
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  Speaker 1: this challenge, whatever it happens to be the most important
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  Speaker 1: thing we can do is turn towards our children.
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  Speaker 2: So I sound like it wasn't very validating.
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  Speaker 1: Your acknowledgment was I'm not going to let your upset
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  Speaker 1: or your uncomfortability and whatever emotion you're dealing with change
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  Speaker 1: the way I interact with you. And that's exactly what
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  Speaker 1: it was. It was, I'm not going to let your sad,
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  Speaker 1: your whatever, your heaviness infiltrate the way I feel about
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  Speaker 1: me specifically, and therefore it allows me to love you
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  Speaker 1: the way I do all the time.
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  Speaker 2: You said, that's so much better than me. Yeah, the
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  Speaker 2: whole day was I love you like crazy. I'm so
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  Speaker 2: sorry that you're going through this, and I'm absolutely here,
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  Speaker 2: But once I leave the room, I'm going to go
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  Speaker 2: and get on with my stuff my way, because I
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  Speaker 2: can't be weighed down by it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And we talk about emotions being contagious, right, and
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  Speaker 1: it's so easy for us to catch our children's emotions
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  Speaker 1: and vice versa. And when our kids are in this
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  Speaker 1: difficult place. How often our knee jerk reaction is to
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  Speaker 1: meet their emotions with more intensity. Yeah, but what they
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  Speaker 1: actually need to know is that no matter what's going on,
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  Speaker 1: no matter how many times we have to sit down
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  Speaker 1: and have this hard conversation, no matter how many times
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  Speaker 1: we sit down, we don't get to the end of
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  Speaker 1: the conversation. I'm going to love you, and I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to keep loving you.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, love that. Let's wrap this up. I think
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  Speaker 2: it's fairly common with not just oppositional kids, but kids
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  Speaker 2: in general. Their instinct is to go with what they know,
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  Speaker 2: to reject anything that we're saying, especially if it's new information,
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  Speaker 2: and they have to really feel like it is their
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  Speaker 2: choice to get on board with a new idea or not.
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  Speaker 2: So if you're not getting anywhere at all with the
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  Speaker 2: three e's, it's probably because your child is still feeling
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  Speaker 2: coerced or still feeling emotional. So trying to argue the
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  Speaker 2: pros and cons and trying to have a really logically
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  Speaker 2: engagement with them is just not going to work. We
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  Speaker 2: need to make gentle suggestions. We need to listen and
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  Speaker 2: then back away and give them time to suggest these
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  Speaker 2: conversations usually don't have to be fully resolved in the
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  Speaker 2: moment on the spot. We really hope that that's been helpful.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Corinth.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your question. More answers to more
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  Speaker 2: questions tomorrow on the Happy Families podcast, which is produced
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  Speaker 2: by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our
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  Speaker 2: executive producer. If you'd like more and fo about making
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: your family happy, I visitors at happy families dot com
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  Speaker 2: dot au.