Latest / eCommerce Podcast / The Hidden Profit Killer in Your Subscription Business (And How to Fix It) | Paul Chambers

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The Hidden Profit Killer in Your Subscription Business (And How to Fix It) | Paul Chambers · eCommerce Podcast

0:00
Matt Edmundson: Well, hello, my name is Matt Edmundson
0:02
and you are listening to the E-commerce podcast.
0:06
I've been in e-commerce since 2002, and these days I partner
0:10
with e-com brands to help them grow, scale and exit.
0:13
And if you'd like to know more about that, just
0:15
head over to the website, e-commerce podcast.net.
0:19
And if this is your first time listening.
0:22
Come follow me on LinkedIn.
0:23
It'd be great to connect.
0:24
In fact, if it's not your first time listening and
0:25
we're still not connect on LinkedIn, come find me.
0:28
Uh, it's a great place.
0:29
Just get over to LinkedIn.
0:30
Search, search there.
0:31
Search Matt Edmundson.
0:33
Uh, and you'll find me there.
0:35
Now.
0:35
That's enough about me.
0:36
Let's talk about Paul.
0:37
Paul Chambers, uh, the legend who is on our show
0:41
today, all the way from the other side of the ocean.
0:44
Uh, Paul, it's great to have you, man.
0:46
I've been looking forward to this because.
0:48
Um, well, lemme just read out your bio here.
0:50
It says that, uh, you are the co-founder of SubSumit,
0:54
the world's largest conference exclusively.
0:58
Exclusively note the word, uh, dedicated to direct to consumer
1:02
subscription businesses.
1:04
We're gonna be diving into what might be the most
1:07
misunderstood balancing act in subscription commerce today.
1:11
Retaining subscribers whilst creating a
1:14
frictionless customer.
1:16
Experience.
1:17
Paul's smiling already.
1:18
Uh, I wonder if we've all been a bit guilty.
1:21
I love this.
1:21
Uh, have we all been a bit guilty, uh, of this at some
1:24
point where we secretly hope customers forget about their
1:27
subscription renewals to squeeze out an extra month of revenue?
1:32
Yet Paul has built an entire movement around the opposite
1:36
philosophy, creating so much value that customers
1:39
never want to leave.
1:41
Paul, welcome to the show, man.
1:42
Paul Chambers: Great to have you.
1:43
Thanks so much, Matt.
1:44
Thanks for having me.
1:45
And that that wild rollercoaster ride introduction.
1:49
Holy cow.
1:50
Holy cow.
1:51
I've set the bar high.
1:52
I've set it high.
1:52
Yeah, yeah.
1:53
No, no, no pressure.
1:54
You know, one, one, I'll give you a fun fact.
1:57
I don't think I've ever revealed before.
1:58
I always like to reveal something new on, on
2:00
different podcast I do.
2:02
I maintain the title of co-founder.
2:05
Because I have it, it just doesn't behoove me to have
2:10
any other title because the things I do change so much
2:13
sometimes on a daily basis.
2:15
My job around SubSumit is to, you know, my main focus
2:18
is to help build out content and find amazing speakers
2:21
and, and bring amazing minds.
2:23
But, um.
2:25
You know, I'm, I'm always just helping with operations,
2:27
helping, you know, Chris, Chris George is our CEO,
2:30
helping him kind of guide us in the right direction.
2:32
Um, keeping an eye on the finances, whatever it may be.
2:35
So, yeah.
2:35
Yeah, yeah.
2:36
Uh, when, when he shared that, uh, I finally, I'm like,
2:39
just don't gimme me a title.
2:40
I don't want COOI don't want president.
2:41
I don't want CEO, just, just, I'm just here to clean up and
2:45
keep things running around with the net catching things as they
2:47
fall, putting 'em back, tidy up.
2:48
Yeah.
2:50
Matt Edmundson: It's, uh, I I love that.
2:51
I love that.
2:52
If you're a regular to this show, you'll, you'll
2:54
recognize the Chris George.
2:55
'cause Chris has been on, um, he's been on, I've spoke to
2:58
Chris on quite a few occasions on the podcast, but, um,
3:01
it's good to have, uh, the, the, maybe the better half
3:04
of the equation on the show.
3:06
Just the better face
3:09
Paul Chambers: I.
3:12
Yeah.
3:12
Always got something going for me.
3:14
Yeah.
3:14
You know, we compliment each other well, we really do.
3:17
Um, and you know, that's from a standpoint of just having
3:21
different minds, different ways of looking at things.
3:23
Um, yeah, I've had a number of co-founders
3:25
in my business journey.
3:25
Different businesses, different co-founders, and,
3:28
um, Chris is one of the better ones and if not the best,
3:31
and, um, it's just 'cause.
3:33
Our, our brains both click at a fast rate, but in just
3:36
different ways and looking at different details.
3:38
So works out.
3:39
Yeah.
3:39
Matt Edmundson: Nah.
3:39
Cool man.
3:40
Paul Chambers: Cool.
3:41
Matt Edmundson: Legends a pair of you.
3:42
Uh, before we get into it, let's just do a
3:44
quick plug for SubSumit.
3:45
Why don't you tell us a little bit about what's
3:46
going on this year?
3:48
I.
3:48
Paul Chambers: Yeah, so sub Summit, um, as you kind of
3:50
aply described in the beginning is the event dedicated to
3:53
$3 trillion subscription, membership and loyalty industry.
3:57
So this is what we found in our decade of doing this now
4:01
is more and more subscription and membership are, and, and
4:04
loyalty especially are the core.
4:06
Hmm.
4:06
Of most businesses.
4:08
It's where that relationship starts and, and forms and really
4:11
engages customers and creates a long lasting relationship.
4:15
So Sub Summit is a place where brands come together?
4:18
Yeah.
4:18
To learn how they continue to scale their, their programs
4:22
continue, how to invest in them.
4:23
If they're not already doing something great, they
4:25
learn how to, to grow it.
4:27
We've got sessions, we've got an expo hall, we've got networking,
4:30
we've got one-to-one business, uh, to supplier meetings.
4:33
Uh, you name it, it's over the course of two and a half days.
4:36
Um, just a, a massive absorption of knowledge.
4:39
Yeah,
4:40
Matt Edmundson: it is a, it's a huge event.
4:42
Paul Chambers: Um,
4:43
Matt Edmundson: I. When you go and I, I've, I've been
4:45
there fortunate to have been there the last two years,
4:47
going again this year, which I'm looking forward to.
4:49
So, uh, if you are in SubSumit, uh, this year, come say, how's
4:52
it, I would love to meet you if we've not Al Met, already met
4:55
and, um, some great friendships actually have started there
4:58
over the last few years.
4:59
So I'm quite looking forward to catching up with folks, uh,
5:01
and seeing crazy things happen.
5:03
Paul Chambers: Cool program too, where brands can get there for,
5:06
uh, little to no investment.
5:08
We've, they can get a free ticket and seven 50 in travel
5:11
and hotel reimbursement through a hosted program,
5:13
um, which I'm sure we can talk about later, but it's
5:16
just a great frictionless way to get people to the event
5:18
and to, to learn and grow.
5:20
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
5:21
I was, when Chris mentioned this, the first time that
5:23
you guys were doing this, I thought that's actually.
5:26
I'm used to going shows in the UK where I think
5:29
budgets are different.
5:30
Chris, I'm, uh, Paul, I'm not gonna lie, I, I, I
5:32
think the budgets are very different on occasions.
5:35
And so when I heard that you guys were paying or offering
5:38
free tickets and subsidized travel to go to the show,
5:41
I'm like, you've obviously figured out a way to make
5:43
that work for you guys.
5:45
And I, I think that's really, really clever.
5:47
Yeah.
5:47
Um, really clever.
5:49
So yeah, if you're listening and you want to go to
5:50
sub submit, do check.
5:51
Where would they go to to find out more about that?
5:54
Paul Chambers: The, the grid starting point is always
5:55
the website, sub summit.com, and from there you can click
5:58
on the, the tickets button, get more details on that
6:00
program if you're interested.
6:01
Yeah, if you're interested in sponsoring,
6:02
there's link to that.
6:03
I can show you, you know, venue.
6:04
Everything's, everything's right there from the homepage
6:06
and lots of great details.
6:08
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
6:08
Fantastic.
6:09
Fantastic.
6:11
Okay, so let's get into it.
6:13
Uh, what made you, uh, I mean your, your, I have here a very
6:18
long list of your history, Paul.
6:20
Um, I went to perplexity.
6:22
Do you use perplexity by the way?
6:25
I haven't, no perplexity, I've ai.
6:27
It's, uh, it's, it's, so, it's AI meets Google search.
6:31
It's really clever.
6:32
Yeah.
6:34
And boy, what did it uncover?
6:34
They've got this, yeah, they've got this new feature
6:38
called Deep Dive, I think called Deep, deep something
6:40
or other Deep Research.
6:41
So I, I clicked that link and it's where it just spends.
6:44
Quite a bit of time doing some research and I said, tell me
6:47
a bit about Paul Chambers.
6:49
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
6:49
Did it label me as a jazz musician?
6:51
'cause there is a famous Paul Chambers jazz musician.
6:53
No, no, no.
6:54
Not
6:54
Matt Edmundson: at
6:54
Paul Chambers: all.
6:55
The things
6:55
Matt Edmundson: that I learned about you
6:56
that I didn't know, uh.
7:00
I mean, obviously I know your connection with the
7:01
subscription commerce industry, but where was it?
7:04
Um, you exit, you had a company, gentleman's
7:07
Box, you exited that.
7:08
You joined forces with Chris, you've got subter, which is a
7:11
subscription trade association.
7:13
You co-founded that.
7:14
Now we've got Sub Summit, um, uh, which you are involved with.
7:20
And then there was some other, what did it come up with?
7:23
I thought it was phenomenal.
7:24
I wanted to check to see if it was true.
7:26
That was my thing.
7:27
Um.
7:29
Paul Chambers: Let me tell you this while you're
7:31
checking your notes.
7:32
I built my first E-Commerce website, fifth grade.
7:36
But, well, I started, I started selling in the back
7:38
coat room in fifth grade.
7:39
Okay.
7:39
But I built my first actual e-commerce website,
7:41
I think it was 1997.
7:44
Wow.
7:45
It was for a company in Detroit here on Woodward Avenue
7:47
called Nathan Camera Shop.
7:49
It was this guy who had a little camera shop on Woodward
7:52
Avenue, and he wanted to, he had so much inventory.
7:55
He heard about this internet thing, and he wanted to start
7:57
selling his cameras and his spare parts online and the.
8:03
The hand coding of everything back in that day was
8:07
remarkable compared to what we, what we have today.
8:09
Yeah.
8:09
Our whole inventory systems.
8:11
Yeah.
8:11
Syn up with his point of sale system.
8:13
Um, so is it still going?
8:14
Is he still online?
8:16
No, he retired.
8:16
He eventually retired and, and shut down his shop.
8:19
You know, didn't really sell it off or do anything with it,
8:21
but, um, you know, this being the e-commerce, you know, an
8:25
e-commerce focused podcast, just thought that'd be a
8:27
fun little tidbit to share.
8:28
Yeah,
8:28
Matt Edmundson: yeah.
8:28
Yeah.
8:28
Wells certainly than me.
8:29
I was 2002, so you definitely beat me.
8:31
By four years, you know,
8:32
Paul Chambers: and I, not saying you, you might've had a better,
8:34
2002 might've been a much better website compared to my 19,
8:38
Matt Edmundson: no, no.
8:40
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
8:40
Um, it certainly has grown over the years, but that's,
8:43
you know, my history, my background, I've had a marketing
8:46
website agency that I've had for 25 plus years now.
8:49
Yeah.
8:50
Um, that's been the catalyst for, for kinda spinning
8:52
everything off and that's what I'm doing my full focus.
8:55
My main focus in time goes towards sub summit
8:58
nowadays, but, uh, certainly.
9:00
Tell me about, and this
9:02
Matt Edmundson: is if it's true, right?
9:03
I'm curious to, to check this out.
9:05
The popcorn and franchise location in metro Detroit
9:09
and the Capri Pizza in Southfield, Michigan, I.
9:12
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
9:13
Um, in 2004, stumbled across a newspaper article about Isaiah
9:19
Thomas rolling out a chain of gourmet popcorn stores.
9:22
Isaiah Thomas is a former Detroit Piston and NBA All Star
9:26
and, you know, admirable in the i the eyes of many basketball
9:31
fans across the world, but a lot, especially in Detroit here.
9:34
And so I was like, well, that sounds interesting.
9:36
I better look into that some more.
9:38
Long story short ended up, um, becoming a franchise
9:42
in the popcorn chain, Dale and Thomas Popcorn.
9:45
Mm-hmm.
9:46
And, uh, opened up, uh, up to, at one point I had
9:49
five stores were on Metro Detroit retail stores.
9:53
There was an online porn I. Part to it as well, but
9:56
as a franchise franchisee, franchisor relationship mm-hmm.
10:00
It's actually one of the important things that I worked
10:02
with them to help learn and grow about is how you do online
10:05
sales, but contribute that back to franchisees in the
10:08
system, um, grew that nicely.
10:11
Ultimately, 2008 came along, ended up really affecting
10:14
the business and, and.
10:16
Hurting it.
10:16
And when most disposable income went away for people.
10:20
Yeah.
10:20
Um, they stopped buying gourmet popcorn as well.
10:23
Um, but it was definitely an interesting adventure and,
10:26
and certainly learned a lot about retail that led the foray
10:29
years, decades later into, um, buying a distressed pizza
10:33
shop here in metro Detroit.
10:35
Uh, and that's where, you know, my branding marketing
10:37
agency comes along and mm-hmm.
10:38
We did almost like, um.
10:40
A bar, bar rescue type situation with it, where it was really
10:43
distressed, needed new life, breathed into it, did like a
10:46
really just paint and touch up makeover on it, put new branding
10:50
to it and really elevated it.
10:52
Um, unfortunately our operating partner as part of that business
10:56
ended up leaving and we ended up finding a new happy home to,
10:59
to run that pizza shop for us.
11:01
Matt Edmundson: Right.
11:01
Paul Chambers: Um, but you know, retail is one of those
11:04
businesses that, um, I have a love hate relationship with.
11:08
Where.
11:09
I love, I love having a business on Main Street and connecting
11:13
with people and you know, you get such fast, instant insights.
11:17
Yeah.
11:17
Into the minds of people.
11:19
One of the craziest things I learned of in my gourmet popcorn
11:21
store was when I would be low on an item on the shelf, if there's
11:25
just one thing left on the shelf, it would sit for weeks
11:28
untouched as soon as I would load another item behind it.
11:32
So there were two of that sitting on the shelf.
11:34
Sales would pick back up again.
11:36
Crazy, and it's just like instant consumer psychology
11:38
that you can't see oftentimes in the digital space.
11:40
Yeah, you start running heat maps and you look at it and
11:42
you watch green recordings and those kind of things, but I.
11:45
It's just, you know, when you're sitting there talking
11:48
face to face with somebody, you know, the upsell, I, you
11:50
know, we'd, we'd have a, a bag, you could get a bag of
11:53
popcorn for this price, but a dollar more, you get a bag and
11:55
a half is what we'd call it.
11:57
And, and it was so fun to experiment with the way I'd
11:59
present it to people and the way I'd talk to people about it.
12:02
And so you, you look, you take those things and you can apply
12:04
'em to online space, but it was like, you know, for a dollar
12:07
more, only a dollar more, you can get 50% more popcorn.
12:10
Yeah.
12:10
You sure you don't wanna do that?
12:14
And so it's always, it's always fun and fascinating to, to play
12:17
with those kind of experiments.
12:18
And then I take them and apply 'em to the websites we were
12:20
building and stuff like that.
12:22
Matt Edmundson: That's fascinating,
12:23
Paul Chambers: man.
12:23
Matt Edmundson: Fascinating.
12:24
I could talk about popcorn all day long,
12:25
but I, I probably should.
12:26
Uh, and, and the pizza shop is my daughter's
12:29
idea of, of heaven.
12:31
Mm-hmm.
12:31
I, I feel, um, but let's get into subscription, right?
12:34
Because obviously this is your bread and butter now, isn't it?
12:39
This is where your genius lies.
12:41
Um, and I, I follow you on LinkedIn.
12:45
We're in a WhatsApp group.
12:46
I see some of the videos you post, which are very funny, I
12:49
have to say, uh, a great, and I'm one of the things which
12:54
has come out through that.
12:55
Um, one of the things I've learned from you
12:57
guys is this traditional approach, approach of making
13:01
cancellation of subscriptions difficult, how that actually
13:06
harms your subscription business in the long run.
13:08
Do you wanna comment on that?
13:09
Paul Chambers: Oh gosh.
13:10
I can't tell you the number of conversations I've had
13:12
with brands where they've had that realization.
13:15
Mm-hmm.
13:15
And, and because, you know, the position, position we're
13:17
in, a lot of big brands come to us and, and want to, to
13:21
chat about what's going on, how they can continue to improve.
13:24
And um, the number of times I've heard from them where
13:27
it's like, as soon as we change the cancellation
13:29
process, as soon as we reduce the friction or allowed
13:32
them to cancel much easier.
13:34
We saw immediate uptick in our customer lifetime value
13:38
and long-term retention.
13:40
Um, and they say immediate because you
13:42
would see people would.
13:44
Cancel and be like, oh, you know, and they'd
13:45
want to come back later.
13:47
That's the biggest challenge that we face in the industry
13:50
of, yeah, kind of that bad reputation that people get
13:54
that companies get from subscription or membership.
13:56
They feel like, gosh, if I commit to this, I'm one
14:00
gonna have a challenge of canceling or two, I'm
14:02
gonna forget about it and.
14:04
You know, we take the position that one, never
14:07
hide the cancel button.
14:08
Robbie Kelman Baxter, who you know as well often.
14:10
Yeah, yeah.
14:11
She's great.
14:11
Robbie, she on the stage, she's stood on the show as well.
14:13
Yeah.
14:13
She stood on the stage two years ago and made everybody hold
14:15
their hand off and do a pledge to not hide the cancel button.
14:18
I remember.
14:18
It's that important.
14:19
Yeah.
14:20
And you know, we, we see that time and time again.
14:23
When you give people the ability to pause, skip, find ways to
14:28
make them more comfortable in their relationship with you
14:30
as a brand, it immediately will show that that.
14:34
The, the benefit to the business from that side.
14:37
So we, you know, we really focus on that.
14:38
And then, you know, the other challenge sometimes is a
14:42
lot of companies will build subscription for the sake of
14:44
building subscription and not give enough thought into like,
14:47
the real value to the customer.
14:48
At the end of the day, you see a lot of these
14:50
membership programs popping up from different retailers
14:53
or different online, um.
14:56
Sales places that are building a membership program just
14:59
to kind of maybe capture some additional revenue
15:02
or engage their customers.
15:03
Yeah.
15:03
But it really has to be done right.
15:06
And one of my favorite examples is Panera Bread.
15:09
Uh, they're famous here in the United States for fast
15:11
casual food and eateries.
15:13
And they, when we, we talked to them and they talked
15:17
about this at Sub Summit as well, so this isn't
15:18
anything special proprietary.
15:20
They realize that.
15:21
Just really start at a low friction, easy
15:24
point with the customer.
15:25
That's that free loyalty program.
15:27
Yeah, bring 'em in, show 'em the benefits, build that
15:30
relationship, and then over time introduce 'em to other options.
15:33
Hey, by the way, we have this SIP club, which gives
15:35
you unlimited coffee, gives you free delivery, it gives
15:38
you ongoing specials, and it's only 10 to $12 a month.
15:43
And you get, you're, you're getting into this membership
15:45
where it's creating tremendous value on top of the value you're
15:48
already feeling from that, that retailer or that website.
15:52
And so that's where, you know, we talk a lot about
15:55
building the right subscription program or membership program.
15:59
That's for your audience.
16:00
Yeah, no, I love that.
16:01
I, I,
16:02
Matt Edmundson: because I, I think the default.
16:05
Um, Paul, which I, we've mentioned on the show
16:07
before, certainly in the uk.
16:09
I, I, I think, um, things are changing, but certainly
16:11
with a lot of e-comm sites, um, if e-comm is their
16:15
primary driver, right?
16:17
The subscription thing is something that they add on
16:19
because that's what Amazon did.
16:21
You know, with a subscriber, save, you know, buy this
16:23
and save 5% every month if you buy it on subscription.
16:26
That then became the default model.
16:28
Subscribe and save.
16:29
Including some of my own, uh, e-comm businesses.
16:32
That's what we did the whole subscribe and save thing.
16:34
And I think if there's one thing that I've learned
16:37
from you guys other than don't hide the cancellation
16:40
button, uh, it's probably don't do, subscribe and save.
16:43
Um, I think it has to be, uh, more than that.
16:46
And so I, I love this example that you're talking about,
16:49
about almost like a, a subscription funnel, isn't it?
16:52
And at every level, you're increasing the value and taking
16:55
people further and further in.
16:56
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
16:57
And there's um, oh man, I wish we could talk about
16:59
already, there's gonna be a really fun announcement at
17:01
Sub Summit from a, a big brand about some, some cool stuff
17:04
happening in this space here, what you just talked about.
17:07
Um, but.
17:09
You'll, you'll hear about it in just a few months.
17:11
One of the things that, um, I can talk about that I've
17:13
really enjoyed is, um, there's a brand that met at SubSumit
17:17
last year called Bottomless.
17:20
Mm-hmm.
17:20
Have you heard of these guys or seen them yet?
17:21
It's not what you think it would be.
17:23
Um, bottomless created this scale for coffee companies
17:27
that they'd put underneath their coffee grounds, and
17:30
it would, uh, when it would.
17:32
You know, you'd put it in a little container and it would
17:34
get down to a certain level.
17:35
It would recognize it, and then it would auto-ship you your
17:38
next bit of coffee that you needed to refill that container.
17:41
Mm-hmm.
17:41
Absolutely brilliant.
17:42
Mm-hmm.
17:43
I've been talking about this for the longest time of the way,
17:46
you know, I've got a dog and you know, I've got dog food,
17:48
but I also have like poop bags.
17:49
How many were we using a day?
17:51
The, the, the goal of the company should be to understand
17:54
the customer's mindset and give them the replenishment
17:56
exactly when they need it, right at the right time,
17:58
without worry or concern.
18:00
So I actually got into Biola's dog food trial and I put,
18:04
I have a scale that sits under our dog food container.
18:06
And I will tell you it works flawlessly.
18:09
Wow.
18:09
As soon as it's starting to get down the next I I get a shit.
18:12
I see a shipment notification in my email, and just a couple days
18:15
later, I have the next bag of dog food that's on my doorstep.
18:19
The, the, the point of friction I would always have with
18:21
Chewy, who, by the way, 70% of their revenue is autoship,
18:25
chewy dog food, massive multimillion dollar brand.
18:28
70% is subscribe and save as autoship.
18:31
The friction point I would always have with them, uh, I
18:33
love 'em to death 'cause their customer service is amazing.
18:35
Their products are amazing, like things are doing are great.
18:37
It always like, it always show up like a week, two earlier
18:40
or a week too late or Yeah.
18:41
You know, I'd be worried like, oh shoot, the
18:43
dog food's getting low.
18:43
Is it gonna show up on time?
18:45
And so, you know, it's about understanding the,
18:48
what the cus customer needs Right at the right time.
18:50
Bottomless, one of the challenges with it is you
18:54
gotta have like this scale and we gotta set it out.
18:56
It needs to be near an outlet and so I think
18:58
there's some things to be worked through on that.
18:59
Yeah.
19:00
But that idea and that mentality of how you can meet the
19:03
customer at that right point.
19:05
I'll never like.
19:06
Why would ever cancel that?
19:07
Why would, unless my dog stops eating that food.
19:09
It's just going to keep coming.
19:11
Matt Edmundson: It, it, it is fascinating.
19:13
While you're talking, I'm thinking about, um.
19:17
Something that Amazon did a few years ago, but it never really
19:20
seems to, I dunno if it's taken off or whether I just don't see
19:22
it anymore, was you could, you could buy little buttons that
19:26
when you were running mm-hmm.
19:26
Running low, you would just push them and it would
19:28
just sort of just turn up.
19:30
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
19:30
I don't know.
19:30
I remember that too.
19:31
Um, I forget what it was called, but I missed that and
19:35
I never tried it 'cause it was before I really got into.
19:38
This space.
19:39
It was, it was a while ago.
19:41
They stopped those and I don't know why.
19:43
I think they probably realized maybe subscribing
19:45
Save was better.
19:46
There's had to maintain the buttons.
19:47
Who knows?
19:48
I. Do you know why they stopped that?
19:50
I have
19:51
Matt Edmundson: no idea.
19:51
I've, I'd like you, I've forgotten about it.
19:53
I, I, I, I, I will find out because I, I'm intrigued as to
19:57
why that I wonder sometimes I think technology is too early.
20:01
Um, true.
20:02
And I, I just wonder whether that was, was too early.
20:05
Um, I'm, I'm less one, one of the things that I'm
20:08
thinking about as you're talking, I'm like, I, I love
20:09
this idea of the scales.
20:11
'cause the scales actually, they're just.
20:13
They're quite easy to produce.
20:14
Once you've got the technology, they're not gonna be a, a,
20:17
a high barrier to entry.
20:18
It's kind of like the Nespresso thing, isn't it?
20:21
Where you buy the machine for next to no money really,
20:25
and the money's in the pods.
20:26
Right.
20:27
Paul Chambers: Well
20:27
Matt Edmundson: that's,
20:28
Paul Chambers: and that's exactly like what I'm saying.
20:29
You know, one of my.
20:31
Things I'm saying the bottom list is just providing
20:33
they're, they're the conduit for all these things.
20:35
But if you find somebody that can create an attractive dog
20:38
food container, 'cause the one I have in my kitchen's, not
20:39
good looking, but an attractive dog food container like
20:42
that in itself is a product.
20:44
And now people, you give them that for free or whatever you
20:47
wanna charge for a small amount of money, and now they're
20:49
getting your dog food nonstop and very rarely gonna cancel.
20:52
Right.
20:53
Yeah.
20:54
Yeah, no.
20:54
Fascinating.
20:55
Matt Edmundson: Listen, if you are listening to this, uh,
20:57
conversation that Paul and I are having and you're enjoying
20:59
it, well, why not come join my little free membership?
21:03
Did you like how I did that there, Paul?
21:04
Uh, it's called Cohorts.
21:06
Uh, we have a cohort in New Zealand, Australia.
21:10
We have just started a brand new one in the uk.
21:13
We've got another one now going in the uk.
21:14
This is where we just jump on Zoom once a month and
21:17
have catch up calls and we just chat about e-commerce
21:19
and all that sort of stuff.
21:20
So if you wanna know more, just check out the website
21:22
eCommerce podcast.net.
21:25
Paul, I'm curious, right, if you were, um.
21:31
If you were in Eco, because I know that there are a
21:33
lot of pure subscription businesses, right?
21:35
I think of our friend John Roman and Battle Box and the
21:38
cool stuff he's doing there, and you kind of go, this is
21:40
really fabulous, you know?
21:43
Um, but I, a lot of people listening to the show will
21:46
have e-commerce businesses.
21:48
How do you see those two things colliding and mixing?
21:53
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
21:53
Well, a couple things.
21:54
Um, you know, I mentioned earlier and talked about
21:57
membership programs and loyalty programs.
21:59
Mm-hmm.
21:59
And that's where, you know, it's an.
22:02
A lot of what we talk about at Sub Summit as well, it's
22:04
not just subscription and pure play where you think, subscribe
22:07
and save or you think mm-hmm.
22:08
Subscription boxes or things like that.
22:10
Um, membership programs are a really big part of that, and
22:13
that's where, you know, we see a lot of retailers doing and
22:16
trying different things and some are successful and some
22:19
are, are not so successful.
22:22
Uh, three brands that come to mind.
22:23
One vie Avi's played with their membership program
22:26
for a lot of different ways.
22:27
A lot of different times.
22:28
They're a collagen.
22:30
Product here in the States and, um, they've been successful
22:34
with it in introducing different things along the way.
22:37
They do, if you're a member, you have free shipping, you're
22:40
gonna get access to products early and special discounts.
22:43
And they followed a similar model to True Classic, which
22:46
is a, a great clothing brand.
22:48
Yeah.
22:49
Done very similar things.
22:50
I've seen True Classic play with their membership
22:52
programs over time.
22:54
Um, and find different ways to do it and offer
22:56
different benefits.
22:58
Um, I. Some will do, uh, you know, just $25 annually and
23:03
some will do a $400 annually.
23:05
I think I, I haven't gotten any feedback on which
23:09
price point works the best.
23:10
I think it all depends on your market and what you're offering,
23:13
um, because I don't think there is a true, like, perfect
23:15
price point for any of this.
23:17
It all depends on your brand.
23:19
Um, the other brand that that comes to mind, which is,
23:22
uh, a really good reference point is Uncommon Goods.
23:25
I joined the membership program because I want free shipping.
23:28
So it's no different than Amazon Prime.
23:30
Mm-hmm.
23:30
You're gonna join Amazon Prime for, you know, the,
23:33
the benefit or Walmart plus.
23:35
Yeah.
23:35
For the benefit of the free shipping, of the
23:37
fast shipping, of the different things like that.
23:39
So e-commerce retailers, if you find your customers are
23:42
coming back to you time and time again, introducing a membership
23:45
program like that would be a phenomenal way to continue
23:48
to engage your customers.
23:50
And, you know, if they're.
23:51
If they know they already have that membership, like every,
23:53
every holiday season comes around and it's like, oh, I
23:56
should go look at Uncommon Goods because I know I get
23:57
free shipping with them.
23:59
That should be one of my first places to shop if I'm looking
24:01
for unique gifts outside of Amazon or other places.
24:04
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I first heard about this concept from
24:08
Jay Meyers, who I, we both know, in fact, you were on Jay's
24:11
podcast recently, weren't you?
24:12
Uh, which I'll come to him in a a second.
24:14
Do, came on my
24:14
Paul Chambers: podcast recently, actually.
24:15
Matt Edmundson: Oh, he came on your podcast
24:17
Paul Chambers: or, or quick 10 minute interview.
24:19
Whatcha are you
24:19
Matt Edmundson: doing?
24:20
I just, just, I saw your post and stuff on LinkedIn about it.
24:22
Um, yeah.
24:23
And Jay's a legend from Bold Commerce and, um, I heard
24:27
him, he did a talk at some, something about memberships.
24:30
Um, and the using this, you know, the psychology of the
24:34
sunk cost fallacy, so I've paid whatever it is, 80 bucks for
24:38
my Amazon Prime membership.
24:40
So even though it might not be cheaper on Amazon Prime, I've,
24:43
I've paid this membership, so I'm going to use it, you
24:46
know, and that, um, and how.
24:50
In some respects, memberships can be more
24:52
valuable than subscription, uh, was what he said.
24:56
Depending on, I guess how you separate the definitions.
24:59
Um, but this idea of introducing a membership for your e-comm
25:03
site, I think it's totally true.
25:05
I think it's totally right.
25:06
I think in the UK it's funny listening to you talk about free
25:08
shipping because I think free shipping's important, but in the
25:10
UK, shipping is a lot less, uh, the fees are a lot less 'cause
25:13
it's a much smaller country.
25:15
Uh, and things get around much quicker.
25:18
Everything's overnight.
25:19
Right.
25:20
And, um, and so, uh, but I think if you are it, we played
25:25
around with a membership where you got free shipping with
25:27
the beauty company we had here in the uk, it was Okay.
25:30
Um, I think we needed to do more than just that to
25:32
add value from the, from the shipping point of view.
25:34
Yeah.
25:35
Paul Chambers: I mean, look, it, that's, that's the, the
25:37
thing that, to, to think about free shipping is one
25:39
element of a program like that that can be successful.
25:42
I always say, and I I should stop saying it because they've
25:44
been raising the prices lately.
25:45
Like Amazon doesn't charge me enough.
25:47
I get so much value from it.
25:49
And same thing from, from Walmart plus, like Jeff Bezos
25:52
watches me talk somewhere.
25:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:54
It's that price.
25:56
Paul's not paying enough.
25:57
Yeah.
25:58
I'd be behind AI's listening
25:59
Matt Edmundson: in, you know, that's what it is.
26:00
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
26:01
I'd be, I'd be willing to pay more just if
26:02
it's because of Joe.
26:03
Listen, because he needs more money.
26:07
Yeah, I know.
26:09
But you know, to that point, you know, so they keep layering
26:11
in more and more offerings.
26:12
And one of the things they just did recently too,
26:14
they introduced Alexa Plus.
26:16
Mm-hmm.
26:16
Which is this new AI agent built into Alexa that you
26:20
can buy standalone for 1999 a month, but if you have
26:22
Amazon Prime, it's included.
26:24
You're like, well that's a no brainer.
26:26
Why don't I just, you know.
26:27
Get Amazon Prime if I don't, if I'm one of the few
26:29
people on this planet that doesn't have it already.
26:30
Yeah, yeah.
26:31
Uh, Walmart Plus does great with this, say layer in, you get a
26:34
Paramount plus subscription, you get discounts on gas at the
26:36
pump, at Walmart stores and.
26:39
You know, if you're an eCommerce store and sitting
26:41
here listening like, well I'm not Amazon or Walmart, I'm
26:43
not gonna, I can't go out and make a deal with Paramount
26:45
Plus and I can't do this.
26:46
Then find ways you can add value.
26:48
Yeah.
26:48
Is it, is it a complimentary eCommerce website where you
26:51
could partner up and put your memberships together
26:54
under a bundled membership where as a member here
26:57
you're gonna get access Here.
26:58
Here.
26:58
Mm-hmm.
26:59
Sure.
26:59
You can talk about share wallet and things like that,
27:00
but you know, looking the ideas to look at unique and
27:03
creative ways, understanding your audience and adding value.
27:07
The more you can add value, the more likely they are to
27:10
come back and stay loyal to you as a brand, thus increasing
27:13
your, your overall value.
27:15
And if you're looking to sell it someday or do
27:16
more with it then mm-hmm.
27:18
It's only gonna work out for you.
27:19
Matt Edmundson: No, that's so true.
27:20
And value, uh, just again to reiterate, uh, from what you're
27:23
saying Paul, and because this is something you guys have,
27:25
have hammered quite rightly.
27:27
Value is not discount value is a whole bunch
27:31
of, uh, other things.
27:33
Having a really fascinating conversation with my, I. With
27:36
my family on the family WhatsApp group the other day because
27:38
within like three days I get an email from Netflix and I get an
27:42
email from Disney Plus, both of which I'm subscribed to, both of
27:45
which are subscription services.
27:46
Netflix has put up their prices massively as have Disney plus I.
27:52
And so I'm like, well, neither of you're really giving
27:54
me any increased value.
27:55
You're just charging me more money.
27:57
Um, there's a few shows I like, but there's always
28:00
a few shows that I like.
28:01
It's not like I've, I, a diehard show like Amazon have done
28:04
well, I think with the Reacher series, but that's just me.
28:06
It's a personal thing.
28:07
Um, but I think, so the conversation in
28:11
the WhatsApp group now.
28:14
This is not an affordability thing.
28:15
I just want to put, I mean, you know, if you want to pay
28:17
for my Netflix subscription, if anyone's listening and feel the
28:20
freedom, I'm not gonna stop you.
28:21
It's not an affordability thing, but it is a, I'm
28:25
really annoyed thing.
28:26
And um, so now in the WhatsApp, we've got this family poll
28:30
thing going on, going, well, which one do we cancel guys?
28:35
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
28:35
And you know, we're seeing that more and more in the
28:38
marketplace as the streamers continue to rise prices.
28:41
Mm-hmm.
28:43
You know, I think they're gonna find there's an upper
28:45
limit that they can go to.
28:46
And it, I almost wonder like, are they testing it?
28:49
Do they have data that suggests it?
28:50
I mean, it could be d all the above.
28:52
Um, but you know, we had Truebill on our stage, uh, a
28:56
number of years ago at SubSumit, and Truebill is the app that.
29:00
And now it's called Rocket Money.
29:02
Mm-hmm.
29:02
Um, the app that's out there screaming from the rooftop,
29:05
download this app so you can cancel your unto unwanted
29:08
subscriptions and they get into your credit cards and they see
29:12
like, you're using this, using this, and then we'll cancel
29:14
it for you and all that stuff.
29:16
But one of the things that, um, haru, the founder of Truebill
29:19
set on stage and shared on stage was we're finally, uh,
29:22
and this is like two years ago.
29:24
Hit the threshold where the number of subscriptions people
29:26
are adding kind of cross with the cancellations basically kind
29:29
of found what that upper limit is on number of subscriptions.
29:32
People will keep now over time as things like this happen.
29:36
You know, I'm like you, I have Netflix, Disney
29:38
Plus, Hulu, Amazon, all the streamers just 'cause
29:41
whatever makes my kids happy.
29:43
Mm-hmm.
29:43
But I'm at that same point now saying, if we're not
29:46
watching Netflix as much.
29:49
Why are we continuing to pay for it every month?
29:51
And I think some of this is being combated or helped,
29:56
I should say, by bundling.
29:58
We're seeing more and more bundling where like,
30:00
yeah, you can get Netflix, Uber, like Hulu, Disney
30:02
Plus and ESPN mm-hmm.
30:03
Are together and different things like that.
30:05
Um, yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna.
30:08
Price themselves out, but then it just becomes a numbers game.
30:10
Are you capturing more revenue from those
30:12
subscribers that stay?
30:14
Matt Edmundson: Okay.
30:14
Yeah.
30:14
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
30:14
Interesting to see.
30:15
Well, they
30:15
Matt Edmundson: definitely don't care about it all me,
30:17
but I do think it's interesting the mindset that I'm in now.
30:20
Yeah.
30:20
Where I'm, I'm like that.
30:21
I, I feel like I've got enough subscriptions, man.
30:24
I, I, I'm, I'm really guarded about which ones I take on.
30:28
Yeah.
30:28
And I'm quite happy to get rid of a few of them.
30:30
Now.
30:30
Paul Chambers: My, I don't know if you're.
30:32
Worried about my hesitancy used to be for canceling,
30:36
let's say something like Netflix was like, oh man.
30:38
Then all my episodes I was midstream on or recommendations
30:43
when I go to sign back up again, those will be gone and lost.
30:46
Um, I'm going to cancel Netflix soon, I think to look at the
30:50
flow and see what happens there.
30:52
Matt Edmundson: Yeah,
30:52
Paul Chambers: because it's a hesitancy in my
30:54
mind like, ah gosh, I gotta rebuild the profiles.
30:57
Maybe that's a good thing.
30:58
Maybe it's good to start fresh.
30:59
'cause you know.
31:01
You know what's super interesting?
31:03
There's a tweet out there from me somewhere that vowed I
31:06
would never go back to Netflix.
31:08
I was like this, I'm done.
31:09
I'm tearing it up.
31:11
Um, and it was when they first raised their prices
31:14
and rolled their DVD out separate from their streaming.
31:18
Okay.
31:18
That's how long ago this was.
31:19
Yeah.
31:19
Yeah.
31:20
I was like, this, this company's done.
31:21
They're toast.
31:22
Um, I ate my words on that and I, I went back to it.
31:25
Mm-hmm.
31:26
Um, but it was because again, they just.
31:30
You know, there's content, you know, there's
31:31
value and things like
31:33
Matt Edmundson: that.
31:33
Yeah.
31:33
Um, yeah, well, at some point I might be the same.
31:37
I might, I, to be fair, I think we're gonna cancel Disney Plus.
31:39
'cause I think the, the output of Disney Plus has been useless
31:42
the last year when you've watched the Marvel movies and
31:45
there's nothing else really to, well, there was that Shogun
31:48
TV show, but I, I think the, um, I think that at some point
31:53
the value may well increase past the price, but at the
31:56
moment it isn't, and this is just to your point, isn't it?
31:59
With our e-com sites, with our subscriptions, with our
32:02
memberships, the value has gotta far outweigh the price.
32:06
And I think I heard at SubSumit, uh, again, it may
32:09
be Jay that says actually the value has to be at least three
32:11
times the price or the three times the perceived price.
32:14
Or no, the perceived value has to be three times the cost of
32:17
whatever it is they're buying.
32:18
Yeah.
32:19
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
32:19
He's done a lot of, Jay, by the way, I've had to kick
32:21
Jay off the stage so many times because he's like,
32:24
he'll go in a good way.
32:25
In a good way.
32:26
Um.
32:28
He'll go up and he'll give a talk and then he'll get
32:30
so many questions, question, question real quick because
32:32
he's driven so much value and knowledge to a room where
32:35
people just have to, like, they have so many more questions,
32:38
what he's talking about.
32:39
Um, but the, the fascinating thing is, you know, he's
32:42
right in, in in that number.
32:44
There's a talk he gave in Orlando in 2022.
32:47
I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, but it was like,
32:49
it was the subscription death curve and, and talked about,
32:53
you know, just kind of that point of where if you're not.
32:57
Providing new, you know, value and giving people things to
33:01
talk about and talk to others, um, then you'll eventually,
33:04
you're gonna plateau.
33:06
Matt Edmundson: Hmm.
33:07
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
33:07
Yeah.
33:07
So true, so true.
33:10
I mean, don't download Jay's brain.
33:11
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
33:13
Just, just download that into ai.
33:14
That would be a whole LLM in itself.
33:16
There we go.
33:17
Um, well let's give it a try Jay, if you're up for it.
33:21
Let's do it man.
33:22
I'm sure, uh, I'm sure Musk's got a tr some kind
33:25
of chip we can borrow that would allow us to
33:27
Paul Chambers: think about Jay.
33:28
He's Canadian.
33:28
He is so nice.
33:29
He would of course say yes.
33:30
They're so nice Canadian, like, yeah, sure.
33:33
No, that sounds great.
33:36
Oh
33:36
Matt Edmundson: God, love the Canadians.
33:38
Um, the part, the part of the empire, you know.
33:41
Anyway, let's not go there.
33:43
The, um,
33:46
Paul Chambers: which one?
33:46
Are we gonna have them sooner or you keep it up?
33:48
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I, well, I dunno.
33:49
Let's talk to Donald to see what he says.
33:52
All of the Donald
33:56
Oh, brilliant.
33:56
Absolutely brilliant.
33:58
What, I know you've given some examples of sites that you're
34:00
really liking at the moment, but thinking about the, where
34:03
it's all going, and I I'm, you're gonna talk a lot about
34:05
this at Sub Summit, I know, but where it's all going 20,
34:08
25, 26, what are some of the things that you are seeing that
34:11
you find the most promising, uh, for the sort of foreseeable
34:16
future of subscription commerce?
34:19
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
34:19
Um, you know, when we, we look at, you know, what's promising
34:23
is a lot of, uh, a lot of brands we're talking to are,
34:27
are looking at bundling options.
34:30
You know, how are, are they coming together to, um, help
34:34
give more to the customers?
34:35
Yeah.
34:36
So we're seeing a lot of promise there.
34:38
Um, you know, we talked about earlier about easing the
34:40
cancellation flow, um, and seeing a lot of promise there.
34:44
Um.
34:46
You know, it's, and the other part, you know, the
34:48
ecosystems continuing to grow and expand Shopify.
34:52
Um, for better or for worse, sometimes I get a little
34:55
frustrated with Shopify's kind of hold on their ecosystem.
34:59
Um, but.
35:01
They're building a great product.
35:02
They're leaning into subscription.
35:03
And so from that, one of the really promising things
35:06
we're seeing is more and more, uh, apps are being
35:09
developed, more partners, which creates more opportunity.
35:12
When I launched, when we launched Gentleman's Box, we
35:16
built it on WooCommerce and we had to, and there was a
35:19
subscription add-on at the time, and we had to hack the crap
35:22
out of that to get it to work the way we want it to work.
35:25
And, um.
35:27
At the time, Recho was just spinning up and
35:30
recharge was just an idea.
35:32
And O Sheen's and his partner's heads and.
35:36
Since then, obviously more and more you've got stay,
35:39
you've got lube, you've got, uh, Yapo got into it for a
35:42
hot minute, but they realize that they wanna stay, focus
35:45
on their core, uh, charge bee and recharge and bold.
35:48
And so there's so many great options out there for
35:50
focusing on recurring billing.
35:51
And then the things they add in, layer in there.
35:53
So, you know, this investment from Shopify of lightly
35:56
dipping their toes into.
35:57
Native subscription and what they're seeing there
36:00
is creating more and more opportunity on top of that.
36:03
So it's, it's easier than ever to build this out, but again,
36:06
i, I just continue to encourage these businesses, just make
36:09
sure you're doing it right, taking some time and focusing
36:12
on how you build out the program and everything behind it.
36:15
Um, we talked earlier about, uh, subscribe and save,
36:20
and one of the things I want to kind of loop back
36:21
around to is if you can.
36:26
Find a way to ask customers questions that will make it
36:29
less frictionless for 'em, then that'll be, um, a better
36:33
off experience as a whole.
36:35
So the example I provide from time to time, and I started
36:37
to get into here was dog poop bags, for lack of a better term,
36:42
if you know you're gonna be using these bags twice a day,
36:44
you take your dog on two walks and you're using twice a day.
36:47
Um, you know, if, if the brand that's selling those were to
36:49
ask me that question, like.
36:50
How often do you use these refuse bags for your dog?
36:54
Okay, we notice you're using 'em three times a
36:56
day and we sell this many.
36:58
Our default shipment's gonna be this often for you.
37:01
So really just kind of easing the customer's
37:04
minds from the get go.
37:05
You know, seeing things like that of better ways to connect
37:07
with customers, whether it be the, like I talked about
37:10
earlier, the Panera $0 loyalty is a starting point or asking
37:14
questions to get to answers.
37:15
Those are where we're seeing success.
37:17
Matt Edmundson: That's,
37:18
Paul Chambers: that's really cool.
37:19
Matt Edmundson: Uh, and it, again, it comes
37:21
old school principles.
37:22
Just talk to your customers.
37:23
Right.
37:24
Figure out what it is they want and figure out a really
37:27
easy way for them to get it.
37:28
I mean, it's, it's not rocket science, but sometimes I
37:31
think we're overcomplicate it.
37:32
Paul Chambers: Yeah.
37:32
And you know, look, in fairness, I'm a business owner operator.
37:36
If you're in the weeds, sometimes it's, it's hard to
37:38
see, you know, out beyond them.
37:39
You're, you're in the day to day, you're doing things.
37:41
Mm-hmm.
37:42
And you think you built what people want.
37:43
And, and sometimes we just have to encourage ourselves,
37:45
and that's why people listen to content like this.
37:48
'cause they wanna.
37:49
Maybe get the opportunity to think outside the box or
37:51
think, you know, work on the business, not in the business.
37:53
And so, you know, just taking a step back and, and not being
37:56
too hypercritical of yourself.
37:58
Like, man, I failed.
37:58
I didn't think about this.
37:59
It's just this is an opportunity to open your mind up to
38:02
look at it in other ways.
38:03
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
38:04
Fantastic.
38:04
Fantastic.
38:06
Um, if you've, uh, been enjoying this and you've made it this
38:09
far and you haven't already done, so, why not sign up to the
38:12
newsletter called E-commerce?
38:13
So that's the newsletter we send out.
38:15
Every single week, we're going to feature all the
38:19
links to Paul, all the tidbits that you've shared in here,
38:21
and probably add one or two extra bits in there as well.
38:24
So do come, uh, and check it out.
38:26
Paul.
38:26
Listen, man, uh, it's always wonderful to talk to you.
38:30
Uh, it always feels like it was just yesterday
38:33
and, but it wasn't.
38:34
It was probably a SubSumit.
38:35
To be fair, when you handed me some very delicious
38:38
e-commerce podcast socks, yay.
38:42
I Hopefully you didn't eat them.
38:45
Yeah, no, no.
38:45
I just, I just thought they, they just looked amazing.
38:49
Paul Chambers: You handed me these branded
38:50
e-commerce podcast socks, which I thought was great.
38:52
It was fun.
38:52
One of that's, so that's where I, I dip my toes in
38:55
the water from time to time.
38:56
One of the brands we support is Custom Sock Shop.
38:58
Um, my, mark, my agency supports, and I've worked
39:00
with them for a decade, and so they're great partners of
39:03
ours, um, and, and friends of ours and, and I. I kind of
39:08
lend my knowledge to them on the, the side here and there.
39:11
Hmm.
39:11
Because it's, uh, it's, it's fun to just kind of stay in tune
39:14
with things and, and keep in it.
39:15
And so, uh, custom Socks shop, I give them all the credit.
39:18
They, they made those awesome socks for you and the
39:20
Matt Edmundson: Oh no, they did designed.
39:22
Brilliant.
39:22
And um, we, uh, I've, I've given the link to that shop,
39:26
uh, that does the socks to many, many people go there and buy
39:29
some really funky socks because this is such a cool thing.
39:33
Paul Chambers: Yeah, yeah.
39:33
It's a good group.
39:33
They're based outta Detroit here.
39:35
Uh, they manufacturing here.
39:36
They have some overseas manufacturing as well, but
39:38
just a good, good family operation and they do
39:41
good work and they care.
39:42
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.
39:43
Paul, listen, how do people reach you?
39:44
How do they contact you if they want to do that?
39:47
Paul Chambers: LinkedIn is a great place to find me.
39:49
Uh, so I just search for Paul Chambers and look for my
39:51
beautiful headshot that you might see on the podcast here.
39:54
And then, um, I'm, I'm active on x, formerly known as
39:58
Twitter, uh, x.com/paulchambers.
40:01
And then, uh, you can always email me paul@subsummit.com.
40:05
And always happy to help.
40:07
Mm-hmm.
40:07
It's a better one.
40:08
If you email info@subsummit or letstalk@subsummit.com,
40:11
there are multiple people that check that, so you get
40:13
a much faster answer than.
40:17
Matt Edmundson: I say that to people all the time.
40:18
Yeah, you can have my email if you like, but
40:21
you really don't want it.
40:22
Uh, you really want this person in the team's
40:24
email 'cause they're gonna be much more helpful.
40:26
Paul Chambers: Actually, if you email the team,
40:27
it gets to me faster.
40:28
Often times it really does.
40:30
Like I'll try to reach Paul and then Lauren comes over to
40:32
my desk and starts pounding.
40:35
Matt Edmundson: Oh, brilliant.
40:36
Absolutely brilliant.
40:37
Uh, Paul, listen, thank you so much man.
40:40
And just again, just to plug subs, Sumit, I will be there.
40:42
If you want to find out more about it, go to SubSumit.com.
40:45
We will of course link to that, uh, website.
40:47
We will link to, uh, Paul's LinkedIn to his.
40:51
No, not Twitter, X. Uh, we'll put all of those, uh,
40:54
in the show notes as well.
40:56
Uh, which you can just scroll down in your podcast app
41:00
or you can head over to the website ecommercepodcast.net.
41:02
So, Paul, listen, I like to save the best tool less.
41:05
I should have told you this before we hit record, right?
41:07
It's okay.
41:07
Um, but I, I completely forgot.
41:10
So for those people that have made it this far that haven't
41:12
quit, uh, listening to the show, we just like to, we've started
41:15
throwing this thing, it's called Save the Best or Last In There.
41:18
So my question, after decades in the subscription business and
41:21
selling successful companies, um, and helping countless
41:25
entrepreneurs through sub to and sub summit, what's
41:29
the one counterintuitive piece of advice?
41:33
That you would offer e-commerce entrepreneurs that has
41:36
consistently proven true for you, yet most business owners
41:40
struggle to accept or implement.
41:42
I appreciate that's the world's longest question.
41:44
Uh,
41:46
Paul Chambers: ooh.
41:47
So, oh man.
41:49
Um, there's a variety of things that come to mind on that.
41:54
Um, the, the thing that I've found is best is to oftentimes.
42:02
Second, guess what I think is right?
42:05
You know, the piece of advice I got from an entrepreneur
42:09
one time and I'll, I'll make it a little more pg, is is
42:12
sometimes you have to look in the mirror and, and.
42:14
Don't believe your own bs.
42:17
Um, yes, so true.
42:18
Yeah.
42:19
I, I was sitting across from him at a table and saying
42:21
like, I think this can work and I wanna make it work.
42:23
And he was a truly successful entrepreneur.
42:25
I really admired, also sold me a bad business at the time.
42:28
And, um, you know, his choice advice when I asked him for
42:32
my hundreds of thousands of dollars back, uh, was sometimes
42:35
you gotta look in the mirror, not believe you're on bs.
42:38
Um, and it was true the number of times I've had
42:41
to stop and, and be like.
42:43
Am I trying to talk myself into this and where this applies
42:46
to the e-commerce businesses.
42:47
If you're an operator, if you're a marketer, if you're,
42:50
no matter what your role is, uh, if something's not
42:53
working, you're sitting there like just beating your head
42:55
against the wall trying to say like, I know this should work.
42:57
Maybe it isn't.
42:58
Or, you know, mm-hmm.
42:59
Maybe you need to take a step back and, and take a reevaluate
43:02
and take a look at it.
43:03
Find better ways, more efficient.
43:04
We're constantly finding ways to be more efficient in what we do.
43:07
We've run events for 10 years.
43:08
We're still like finding every single day, finding ways,
43:12
like, why didn't we do this?
43:12
Why didn't we do this?
43:13
So, you know, I think that's, that's really some of the
43:16
best advice I ever received.
43:18
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I love that.
43:20
Absolutely love that.
43:21
'cause, uh, you're right, the banging your head against a
43:23
brick wall, was it Einstein that said, uh, the definition
43:26
of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again,
43:28
but expecting different results or something like
43:30
that, that yeah, giving the same result, like, okay, well
43:32
Paul Chambers: you the same, you know, and expecting
43:34
something different to happen.
43:35
Yeah.
43:35
It's um, you drive, you insane.
43:38
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it will.
43:38
Absolutely.
43:39
I butchered the quote, but you know, you get what I mean.
43:41
It's that whole insanity thing.
43:42
Just stop doing the same thing.
43:43
Yeah.
43:44
It just, the results won't change if you do the same thing.
43:47
And there was that other phrase, is it Marshall?
43:49
What's the face?
43:49
What got you here won't get you there.
43:51
That's great.
43:52
Have you read that book?
43:52
It's a great book.
43:54
What got you here won't get you there.
43:55
It's a really interesting title, Marshall, I can't
43:58
remember his name now.
43:59
It'll come back to me as soon as I hit the stop record button.
44:01
I'll
44:02
Paul Chambers: find out.
44:03
I'll, I'll type those first words in the word Marshall.
44:05
Amazon.
44:06
It'll find it for me.
44:07
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, where?
44:08
Just tell ai.
44:09
There should be a button.
44:10
Just push the button and the buck will turn up tomorrow.
44:12
Amazon.
44:13
Jeff's listening.
44:13
Jeff, send him a complimentary compli.
44:15
Yeah, that's my ad that's coming next
44:17
Paul Chambers: you.
44:21
Matt Edmundson: They aren't
44:21
Paul Chambers: listening.
44:22
Matt Edmundson: Don't lie to me.
44:23
You're listening.
44:26
You'll be amazed what might happen.
44:27
Uh, but listen, Paul, awesome.
44:30
Uh, thank you so much my friend.
44:32
It's been an absolute treat, an honor.
44:34
Thank you, Matt.
44:35
Appreciate it.
44:36
Wow.
44:36
That's it from me.
44:37
That's it from Paul.
44:38
Thank you so much for joining us.
44:40
Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.
44:41
I'll see you next time.
44:42
Bye for now.