Latest / Nonprofit411 Podcast / LinkedIn for Fundraisers: Michelle Benson on Being Found By Funders
Transcript
- Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Hello and welcome to the Nonprofit 411 podcast for the week. I am so excited to join you. I'm Sarah Barton, your host from Nonprofit 411, and I am joined today by Michelle Benson, the founder of Culture of Philanthropy. Welcome, Michelle. michelle Benson: Thank you Sarah, thank you for the invite. It's really lovely to be here. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, I I actually so I'm a fangirl of your LinkedIn. And that's how I got to know you. but I've done a little bit of research and it looks like that you've been a fundraiser. you've been on both sides of fundraising. You've been on the fundraising side of fundraising as well as the philanthropy side of fundraising. And so you have a lot of varied experience to share. michelle Benson: Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, I was a fundraiser for about 18 years and then funders of six and I still Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Awesome. michelle Benson: have to a little bit on the funding side even now. So you could really say 10 now for funding. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Awesome. Well, before we get into all of that, I always start the podcast with my favorite question, which is what is your favorite hobby? michelle Benson: that's a good question. I love to travel. Absolutely love traveling. And I also am quite big on hiking and walking. Those, guess, are the two biggies. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: So where's the furthest place you've travelled from home? michelle Benson: Well, actually, this March, I spent a month in Thailand, which is pretty far from here, because I'm based in the UK. And then in June, I spent a month in Bali. So I've had quite an Indonesian Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Wow. michelle Benson: year this year. And that's actually the beauty of the job that I'm now doing, because I'm teaching people all over the world. And although it's online, I, you know, going to Bali and Indonesia is fantastic for putting yourself in the time zone of Australia and England. It works really well Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: yeah. michelle Benson: to be in that you can really, so it's been, it's been wonderful because traveling and, know, actually spending a decent amount of time in a country is so lovely because you really get to experience the culture and the people and the food and, you know, all the good stuff. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, my mom always says you can't go anywhere and not travel for a month. Like she always wants to leave for a month. And I'm always like, so my father now needs care and I'm always like, okay, but could I could give you a weekend or I could give it, you know, I could give you a week. But she michelle Benson: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: really she really she is with you. She embraces like a month long visit so that, you know, she gets to do all the things. michelle Benson: Yeah, yeah. If you can, it's, I mean, if you can, it's wonderful. And equally, I'm off Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: to Barcelona next week and I'll only be there for a week, but you know, it's, that's a lot closer to home. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I love that. You do love to travel. I want to be able to travel like you do. michelle Benson: Good. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: So let's dive into fundraising and philanthropy. So tell me a little bit about the culture of philanthropy and kind of like what you're doing now and then a little bit of history about how you got there. michelle Benson: Great, perfect. Culture of philanthropy is online training. So ultimately, I teach fundraisers, CEOs, comm staff and consultants how to be found on LinkedIn by the people they want to be found by so that they can reach their goals. So most fundraisers would want to go onto LinkedIn and be found by high value funders. So corporates, major donors, trust funds, CEOs often want to be found by funders and the media. Comms obviously raising awareness and consultants obviously looking for clients. it started because I was fundraising for 18 years and for 18 years as a fundraiser, I was always chasing. So, you know, Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm-hmm. michelle Benson: as a corporate fundraiser, it's like come in, We want to raise the corporate fundraising. Let's make a list of 10 or 20, 50 corporates that are going to be sympathetic to our calls. And then your job is to cold call them. So it's either, the trustees introduce me? Can I invite them to an event? Can I just cold call them? But ultimately, it's chasing high value decision makers who don't want to be chased. But we do it. And generally, we're quite good at it, right? we pursue it and we do it and we get the job done. And then when I skipped over to the funding side of the fence, became a funder, I worked for a trust fund and we had an open application process. And I was doing a lot of joint funding with other trust funds, corporates and major donors and their advisors. And everybody was saying to me, you're mad. Why have you got this open application form? How the hell do you staff that? And I had two colleagues who used to come in in the morning, turn the computer on, get a tsunami of application forms, the vast majority of which didn't meet our criteria. You couldn't read, they were chomped and Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm-hmm. michelle Benson: paced from everywhere, you know. And then you got like 25 % of those were bloody good. Absolutely brilliant. Someone had sat down, written a really strong application, and you had to wade through 75 % to get to those 25%. So my two miserable colleagues were miserable because, you know, it was a sucky job, but we soldiered on and we used to spend a lot of time going, how can we, you can we improve the website? Can we advertise more? Can we do the, you know, what can we do to prevent the tsunami? And then, and then ultimately after much discussion, we decided to close the application process and became an invite only. Trust fund, you don't come to us, we find you. And my colleagues then were told, you've got 15 million pounds to spend. You know our giving criteria. Please could you go and research charities that we think meet our criteria. And so they use the internet, they spoke to other funders, they used a lot of LinkedIn, and they proactively went out and found who we were looking for. And the quality of our pipeline went right up and their happiness levels went right up as well. Because if only two people, you know, I think that's the thing with a lot of funders who give out a lot of money, they give out a lot of money, but they've got no staff. They're not, they don't have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people wading through application forms. They've got three people, Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. michelle Benson: you know, or whatever it is. And so, and so ultimately it was a real aha moment for me. in the fact that the more funders I was funding with as a funder, all the big money was looking. No one was being, no one was going, let's just open our app, let's just hope for application forms, crossed that, it's like Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: this thing called the internet, we'll go and we can find what we're looking for. And that's when I really thought, if ever I'm a fundraiser again, my job is to be found. not constantly chase. Now I'm not saying don't cold Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm, I like that. michelle Benson: call, don't send out invites, I'm saying add an additional string to your boat. And if we both know that more more funders are closing and becoming invite only and being more proactive to look. So as a charity, if you don't have a strategy to say, I can proactively chase, tick, but I can also proactively put myself in the pathway of people are looking. If you don't have that second you know, string to your bow, your pipeline is going to shrink and shrink and shrink. So in 2018, I created an online course, which was all about how to be found by funders who are looking. And it was online because I wanted someone in Scotland to be able to take the course. I didn't want them to have to travel to London and have a hotel involved. And, you know, it was like, it's online. It's all on video, live webinar video, do it in your own time and everything. And it's just kind of evolved from there, where the focus has become more and more and more using LinkedIn, because LinkedIn as a tool to be found by high value funders is incredibly powerful. And if you know how to use it, and I've kind of developed a really, really, really simple system that I can teach and that I use myself. And if you know how to use it. then it's also a really lovely way of just putting yourself out on LinkedIn, being found by funders and they come and find you. Or if you go to them, you're no longer a cold call because they've kind of got to know you on the platform. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: okay. I love I love all of this. Like I michelle Benson: you Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I so yeah, I've been a grant writer for twenty five years, you know, written the grants. I've been a grant reviewer. I was for a short period of time, I was executive director of a small foundation. It's so funny. I was just telling a friend yesterday, I think, who's looking for a a a fundraising job, and we were talking about and I said as a funder, you know, if I'm a funder. I use every criteria I can to eliminate people because I have too many. I mean, I have so much. Exactly michelle Benson: Exactly, yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: what you said, the 7525. Because I remember we did scholarships. And so like we just had to have criteria to eliminate it down. And so if it was incomplete, like trash, right? We we automatically, it's trash. It doesn't go, it doesn't michelle Benson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: and and it feels maybe from the other side. That feels cold, but I they don't understand like what you're swimming through. And it was just me. Like in my michelle Benson: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: in my situation, I'm the executive director. And then my job is to report to the board whom I rec would recommend or a pool of people I would like the, you know, I would like them to choose from. And it's so much. So I love that your strategy says, okay, let's reverse that. Let's make it simpler for people to find out. us or if you do approach them that you actually have everything that they need to be able to see available to them so they don't have to dig because that's really we want to reduce their burden right in in in giving to us so michelle Benson: Yeah, exactly, Exactly, yeah. And also I think when I say to people about the strike, you know, be found, people always jump to the conclusion that, that's a big name charity. But what you don't understand, what they don't appreciate is we employ two members of staff, that's two people's full-time salaries. Now, if we were only interested in big charities, if I turned around to you right now and said, name five children's charities, you can do that, right? Or name five Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm-hmm. michelle Benson: animal charities, you can do that. Why would you employ two full-time members of staff if all you were interested in was big name? You just go, give me 20 Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: minutes and the internet, Google, I could do that. Bam, job done, two salaries saved. You only employ philanthropy advisors or grant assessors or CSR people. If when you're looking, If you are looking for those big names, small names, completely unheard of local charity, you know, we actually wanted to invest in all size charities. And Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Uh-huh. michelle Benson: so we found some really tiny ones because we would, A, we were using the internet, but we were also talking to, because we weren't now spending our life with the tsunami, we could proactively talk to our grantees and who are you working locally? and talk to other funders and all that good stuff as well. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. So what are some of the things that you would tell any size nonprofit? I work with a lot of rural and small nonprofits. So, you know, they're the one man shop. You know, they're doing it all. michelle Benson: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: And and I do I've seen, I mean, I've witnessed how much people who have access to the resources want to support those types of organizations, right? But what would you recommend that even a small shop, like what can what do they need to share to be findable? michelle Benson: Yeah, exactly. Well, what I, the whole point of, I run an online course. So the reason it's online is so it can be accessed by absolutely anyone. There are live webinars in the courses I run, but they're all recorded. And then there's a series of videos that you work through. And then underneath each video, there's a comment section where I support absolutely everybody on a one-to-one basis. So it's completely tailored. And what I do is the first thing I would say to them is, right, What is your goal? So for example, they might turn around and say, we would like to get four new corporate funders for around about 20,000 dollars in the next 12 months or something like that. So then it's okay. So number one, what's the goal? Number two, who is your ideal donor? And then I take people through an exercise to say, you know, what does a really great donor look like and what does a rubbish one look like? And yes, there are such things as rubbish donors. When you've had a few rubbish donors, you know what a rubbish donor is. not all, they're not Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes, I know, I know. michelle Benson: a dream come true. So, you know, what does a dream come true donor look like? And so then we go, okay, because if we're going to go onto LinkedIn and we're going to work with the algorithm, the more we feed the algorithm what we want, the algorithm's going to become our prospector. So what I always say is, your actions on LinkedIn, like your words and your actions. If you think of the algorithm like a little sniffer dog, you know when you give a sniffer dog a rag, it smells the smell and then it runs off, finds that scent, Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: yeah. michelle Benson: brings it to you. Well, your words and actions on LinkedIn are like your rag and the algorithm is a sniffer dog. So I teach you how to, you know, what you write, you invite as it were, I teach you how to write on LinkedIn. so that there's sniffer dogs going, corporate funders in Virginia that support the environment or whatever it is. So basically the algorithm starts prospecting for you. It fills your newsfeed with the people you want to be found by. So you can start liking and commenting and get yourself lift your visibility to them. But it also means you are in their newsfeed. So Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm-hmm. michelle Benson: we go back, okay, so what's your goal? Who's your ideal donor? Then I take your case of support or your value proposition or whatever you want to call it. And I show you how to turn that into a LinkedIn friendly version. So, so I use AI to do that actually as well, cause that just speeds everything up for everybody. And then after that, I teach you how the, you know, I teach you how the platform works. Cause I see LinkedIn as a tool and like any tool, you know, you don't use a hammer to make a cup of tea. and you don't use a spoon to drive a nail into a wall, right? So if you Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: try to put a teaspoon and try to put a nail in the wall, it's not gonna work. There is nothing wrong with that teaspoon. That teaspoon is a perfectly functioning Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Right. michelle Benson: tool. You're just using it for the wrong bloody job. So I'm saying LinkedIn Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes, yes. michelle Benson: is a tool and let me teach you how to use the damn tool so that you're not making a cup of tea with a hammer type of thing. Or what I often say is, Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, that's so good. michelle Benson: you don't need a Ferrari to do the school run. And it's the Ferrari, we're not doing the school run with this baby, let's take it out really. So it's like, so if it's a tool, how do you use it? And then we do a big deep dive into your profile, because your profile is how you speak directly to the algorithm. You're talking to the humans via your, you're speaking to the algorithm, the human at the same time. So that's how we start working with algorithms so that we're in sync. And once I rewrite your profile with you, and as I say, the videos explain to you the theory and then you and I work on a one-to-one. So this course isn't come onto a course, let me teach you what to do, you go away and off you go. We physically do it together. But by the end of the Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, yeah. michelle Benson: course, you go, right, I've now got a definite goal. I've completely revamped my profile. My newsfeed is changing. I'm starting to build up a network for the people that I want to build a network with. And I show you different invitation strategies to make sure that happens. And then I go and do quite a deep dive as well on content and commenting. Because a lot of people don't want to comment. think my Michelle Benson theory of content is content on social media is the new public speaking. Now, when I was a fundraising director, nobody ever came up to me and said, I am scared stiff of public speaking. Please don't make me do it. They Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: say things that, I think that would be better coming from the project worker. I think the CEO should say that like, God, they're putting me in front of a microphone. And what they say on LinkedIn is, I don't think I've got time to do content or Who am I to talk about anything? Or, you know, it's like, please God don't put the spotlight on me. So Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: I, but I also believe when you're on LinkedIn, if you look at my content, I never talk about myself. So I've, know, and I have, you know, nearly 60,000 followers, an incoming pipeline, people buying my products, and yet my content never ever, ever, ever talks about me. Because Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: how I see it is when I'm talking to people about doing content, I'm saying, I don't want you to put the spotlight on yourself. I want you to be the spotlight operator. So I want you behind the spotlight, operating the spotlight and shining it on things that you think your audience will be interested in. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: And don't chest beat and don't give us organisational updates and don't anything that starts with, I'm really proud to announce, you know, anything that says I'm proud to announce, you know, you're in trouble. That's it. You know, so ultimately, how do you put out good content that people are interested in so you can start a conversation? Content should start conversations, really. So what's gonna Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: start a conversation with your audience? And then also a commenting strategy, because I think that's really underestimated. People think they have to go on and do loads of content and they haven't got time or they're worried or whatever. But actually I had one student, she did the course, I think it was about 18 months ago, and she's never posted, she only comments. She's very, very good at commenting. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: interesting. michelle Benson: She just won't post. I've tried to get her she won't. She's on her Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Well. michelle Benson: eighth corporate partner because she's very good at commenting. So she can still get found and get conversations and get people coming to her. Or if she goes to them, they feel like they know her. So that's pretty much it. And then I also tie it to your website and your other bigger systems. So we go through a very systematic system. that just says, you know, what do you want? Who do you want it from? Why should they be interested? Let me explain this, baby, so you understand it. Let's put you out there in the news feed so people can see you, but the absolute right people see you and then have a strategy. So if you go to them or they come to you, you're going to engage people. And then that gets over the hump of Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: not being able to get in front of people. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, so interesting because, well, one, I think that so for myself as a business owner, like LinkedIn is such a different type of social media. And michelle Benson: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: so, you know, I think that as we come o you know, maybe people my age, you know, 40s and 50s, who like I I in my first job as a fundraiser actually is when I got onto Facebook. the director of an alumni was like, This is the coolest thing, Sarah. I can find our students, you know. And michelle Benson: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: so that's when I got into Facebook. And and in Facebook, you know, we do post a lot about ourselves. And I I was just meeting with my virtual assistant the other day and I said, you know, I don't think a lot of times my video content doesn't do well on on LinkedIn. You know, it does it's not good for the platform. And I look at the ones that do really, really well. And they do exactly what you're talking about. They're really like shining the light on a something that would be meaningful to my audience. And and I do think having a strategy then takes away the stress of all of it, right? Because now michelle Benson: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: we actually know what we need to be doing when we focus our time on it. I find michelle Benson: Yeah. But also I think it's not, I think it's, I think I agree with everything you just said, but I would also add, I think the vast majority of charities, comms teams post on LinkedIn, like a tick box exercise. It's like, I've got to post Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. michelle Benson: on LinkedIn on a Tuesday and a Wednesday. Has it done tick? And it's almost like the post, I post full stop job done. Where I see the host as a conversation starter. So for example, if I turned around to you and said, I've sent out 25 invitations to a lunch for a load of funders to come to a lunch, I wouldn't go, I've sent out the invitations, job done, all done. The invitations are the first domino. that gets the people to the lunch. At the lunch, we're going to have a conversation. At the conversation, I want to a meeting afterwards. Afterwards, I want to start putting Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. michelle Benson: a proposal. You know what mean? There's a sequence, isn't there? And the invitation is the first domino that then sets up all the other dominoes that then they knock each other over, if you like. I see posting as that invitation. It's the first step of a sequence. And that sequences I post so that I can get seen and get be known to an audience. And so that they feel comfortable coming to me or I can go to them and we can have a conversation. And when I had that conversation, I want to get a meeting, when I get the meeting. So it's not this tick box exercise. And I think that's the other important thing. When people post, if it's all about I'm posting, I just want to get likes and comments. What you end up doing is feeding the beast. You end up going, what does the algorithm want? What's going Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. michelle Benson: to make me popular? What videos work? what you mean by what videos work, it means what ones get the most likes and comments to make me look good and make me feel good. I actually think if I look at some of my posts, some of the most that I would call successful as in drove loads of traffic to the website, got email signs up, Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. michelle Benson: got loads of people to buy my product, they don't get that many likes and comments. But you might look at one of my posts and go, that obviously didn't work very well because you didn't get a lot of likes and comments. I see those posts as if, for example, especially if you're driving traffic to a website, if you have a post that you want to drive traffic to a website, People can't click on the link to your website and leave a like and comment at the same time. They can't do two, they can't do right, they Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: yeah. michelle Benson: have to do one. So if it's to drive traffic to the website and you get a load of likes and comments, I would say that's a failure. Cause it's job was to drive traffic. That's Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. michelle Benson: almost like me saying, I sent out a load of invites. Nobody came to the lunch. I didn't get a single RSVP, but 12 people phoned me back and told me that the the invitation was beautiful. They loved the design. I think I'll do it again. I'll do that design. You'd be like, if you Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: were my boss, you'd be like, are you crazy? We didn't, we weren't out to win a design award. We wanted people to come to a lunch. So it's Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. michelle Benson: like, what is the intention of that post? And it should never be for the sake of posting, cause it's Wednesday. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: thank you. I mean, you're educating me too. So, you know, because I I don't so, and I mean I've struggled with this because I'm not I don't value social media in my life. I have social media in my life, but I don't value it. And so, and I think that that is it is a bare it is a challenge, and I think it's becoming more and more of a challenge because I see my children and they don't value social media in their life either. And also it it is this tool that has become, you know, really significant. And I always I mean, I tell my clients that the problem with social media as my primary tool is that like I I can't guarantee they're seeing it. Right? I can't guarantee that the people that I want to see it are seeing it. And you're saying, well, I'm shaping it so that it it goes to the people that that need to see it. And so Do you do any michelle Benson: Yeah, exactly. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: other social media platform? Like do you have you played with the other ones? michelle Benson: Not really, no. I'm actually about to get more into Facebook because I've neglected it horribly, but I've really focused on LinkedIn and it's served me incredibly well. And because I've been teaching it, I've also been, look, you know, obviously helping other people replicate the system that I use myself that works incredibly well. Ultimately, I've now taught over a thousand people in 32 countries. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Wow. michelle Benson: And yeah, I know it's quite stunning, isn't it? And all of them, 100 % of them have found me and have come to me. Like you found me on LinkedIn and you DMed me, right? And hence we're here. So Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. michelle Benson: everyone comes to me. One of the things I find is they've all got the same problem. And ultimately that is everyone says, if you put me in front of my target market, I'm fine. I can talk to a donor, can talk to a journalist, I can talk to a politician or whoever my target market is. I'm absolutely fine once you put me in front of my target market. I just can't get in front of them. And that's Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm-hmm. Yeah. michelle Benson: the big constraint, that's the big sticking point. And so if you look at LinkedIn or any social platform, they've already gathered all those people, all the people that you need. to say yes to you or all the people that you need to get in front of are on those platforms, especially LinkedIn, because it's a lot of senior people don't even look at it as social media. They see it as a sort of like a work tool. It's a digital Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. michelle Benson: networking party that they're not gonna be part of. So LinkedIn has gathered all those people. And so it's a question for you now to be able to get in, get in front of them and then start those relationships. But if you actually look at, so I look at a lot of company pages, for example, because I work with lot of comms people, I would say 99 % of charities talk to other charities on LinkedIn. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Right. I actually was think I've been thinking that the whole time. Like michelle Benson: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: a lot of whom I talk to are other consultants, right? michelle Benson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: and so yes, so I think that that's true. yeah. michelle Benson: So, LinkedIn has very, very intentionally put you in those groups. So all the plumbers are together, all the hairdressers are together, all the accountants are together, all the consultants, all the fundraisers, all the charity CEOs. So you, but what got you into that echo chamber will get you out and it starts with your profile. And so that's why I always, you know, that's why I always say, right, what's your goal? Who's your target market? Tell me who your target market is. The first thing I'm going to do is get you into that echo chamber. So when you open Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: your phone, instead of, so if you're a consultant, you pick up your phone, it goes, you open LinkedIn, it's consultant, consultant, cause it lets you, as you scroll through where I want you to go, let's say you said it was, I don't know, CSR directors. You want to pick up your phone and have a, have a newsfeed for the CSR directors. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: and now you can like and comment and jump in. And that's a much funner way than sending cold DMs or trying Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. michelle Benson: to chase trustees to do you a favor and all the rest of it. You can really, and it's amazing how fast you can build up a network. It's quite stunning Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. michelle Benson: how quickly it can happen. And then that puts you in control. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. I love everything you have shared. Our half an hour is already done. It goes too fast because like, you michelle Benson: Thank Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: know, there's so much, so much to learn and share. So tell me, tell my audience where they can find you on LinkedIn or or where they can find you. Yes. michelle Benson: Well, LinkedIn. And if they say they can't find me, that would be shocking. Michelle Benson, Culture of Philanthropy on LinkedIn or Culture of Philanthropy is my website. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, and I'll link those in the notes so that they'll be available for everybody. Michelle, thank you so much for coming today and for sharing. I've learned so much. Like I'm so curious about this. I'm going to have to deep dive too into it and see see what I can learn. Good luck with the Facebook. So Facebook I've had a very different experience on, and so like it'll be neat to see, you know, where that takes you. and michelle Benson: Yes. Well, this will be interesting because I'm just going to apply the exact set because people that have done my course have actually done, taken my system, applied it to different channels and it just works. this is, know, Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Woo. michelle Benson: see if it's the thinking, it's the process and the thinking that you're applying basically. So Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. michelle Benson: fingers crossed it should be good. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Fingers crossed. Well, and thank, thank you, thank you for coming. And to my audience, I want to thank you for listening this week. I am Sarah Barton. If you've enjoyed this episode, please hit like and subscribe. It really does help. And I look forward to talking to you again next week. Bye.