Latest / The Sober Creative Podcast / Episode 062 - Music Is The Centerpiece Of My Life, Alcohol Is Not

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Episode 062 - Music Is The Centerpiece Of My Life, Alcohol Is Not · The Sober Creative Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome everyone to The Sober Creative Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Every person you're about to hear made one decision that changed everything,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: and none of them would tell you it was easy.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: These are conversations centered around sobriety,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: creativity,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: and the willingness to become the person who doesn't let alcohol get in the way of
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: the life you're trying to build.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Josh Woll, and I'm honored to bring you today's guest.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Jeff H. Harrington is a singer,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: songwriter, producer, and bass player who's been playing gigs for close to 40 years.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them in the blues scene.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Nine years ago,
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: he left his career as a medical physicist and music has been the centerpiece
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: of his life since,
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: even though he's never made his main income and doesn't expect to.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Last couple of years, Jeff has barely played out and that pullback traces directly to sobriety.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's an introvert.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And once he stopped drinking, he found out that he doesn't much like crowded rooms.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: He hasn't had a drink in about five years.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Before that, he drank a lot like Wisconsinites do.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Too much.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: What actually got him to stop was a stomach issue.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: The acidity got to him, arriving right as he was already drinking less on his own.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: For Jeff, growth comes first, and he's clear that alcohol was never going to get him there.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to talk with him about four decades of music,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: What sobriety changed about how he shows up for it and where he goes from here.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, Jeff, welcome to the show.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Josh.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to early days of Jeff starting to drink.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, briefly, if you don't mind, maybe I'll just explain why.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Please.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wearing sunglasses.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Aside from being a musician and being like super cool, you know, as yourself today.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was unfortunately mugged a couple years ago and there was some damage.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's some scars and my eyelid dropped.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just, it doesn't look that bad, but I feel self-conscious.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully I'm having surgery in a few weeks,
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: so hopefully it'll all get corrected pretty well.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: But That's why.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, thanks for sharing.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate your vulnerability of coming on and still having this conversation with me.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks, Jeff.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're supposed to do what we're really terrified of, aren't we?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: We do the things that are uncomfortable, yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: We appreciate it after it's done.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's for sure.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: What was your question?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no, no worries.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So what was like drinking like for you in your early days?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, like I think you mentioned, I grew up in Milwaukee.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm back here.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I left for about 15 years.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: But Milwaukee, you know, I think it's known nationally for being a big drinking town.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: We used to be the big Brewery town.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have a strong German history.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're, I think,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: always number one for excessive drinking,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: which is to say people who are probably,
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know, drinking a little more than is a good idea.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we're in the top 10 for,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: pretty much every measure,
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: like number of DUIs per capita, things like that, bars per capita.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: I actually didn't mention this to you, but when I was, well, my dad was the drug counselor.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, and he was really cool.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like he,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: he wasn't like a hard ass and people liked him, but I,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: so I actually didn't really drink till my parents split up when I was a senior.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went to college a year later at Madison, which is really, Even a whole nother level.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's like Wisconsin drinking at its finest.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people, you know, kids in Madison drink a lot.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So there, there was a lot of drinking.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say, I think I always kind of drink like a pretty typical Wisconsin man.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't necessarily say I was an alcoholic, but, um,
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: not that that's important to make that distinction,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: but you know,
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I drink a lot and, uh,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: I guess thinking about this recently,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: like when I was in college,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was deathly shy,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know, like that Smith's lyric, I'm a shyness that is criminally vulgar.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I got it from my dad.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the son in the air of a shyness that is criminally vulgar.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I really was one of the most quiet people you ever would have met when I was in my 20s.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a lot of shame and anxiety for whatever reason.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was terrified of woman and just being in social situations.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: So like everyone else, I was drinking and probably not more, but I was drinking for a reason.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Looking back,
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I see it clearly because I was just really nervous and The way I look at it is,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: let's say an athlete has injured their leg and the trainer slathers icy hot all
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: over it, maybe gives them a pain injection.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that player,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: they can get through the game,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: but obviously the injury is not going to heal during the game.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's probably just going to get worse.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's like a perfect analog to someone who's shy and they're drinking.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the party and you made it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're not
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: nauseous from anxiety, but you're not feeling all those feelings at all.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're totally numbed out.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: In college, I think we would normally drink at least 12 beers a night, if not more.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone was doing that.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Not so much the woman, but the woman were drinking quite a bit too.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I wasn't feeling anything.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was probably like a zombie.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And to grow as a person, I think you have to face those emotions.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was literally,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: my growth was stunted for at least five or 10 years looking back.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I blame Wisconsin for that.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just kidding.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But no, it's a very strong culture here.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then I moved to Cleveland for like five years for my first job.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd think they're similar cities, like they're both Midwestern.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: the stereotype,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's true or not,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: but it was like a built on manufacturing and blue collar work.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd think Cleveland would be big drinkers.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I found that there was it was Shockingly different.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people just didn't drink that much.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't drink that much when I was in Cleveland.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So looking back, I see that that's who I really was.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was someone who didn't even really want to drink that much.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was probably very influenced by the culture around me.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then I moved back to Wisconsin.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: I held out for a couple years and eventually I succumbed and fell back into
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: the culture here and And started drinking like a Wisconsinite again.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a lot of fun.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, let's be honest.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad I was social in my 20s and 30s.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I needed to drink as much as I did, though.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, I wish I hadn't have done that.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: But that's just part of my story.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't go back and change that.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you want me to keep going, I can.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, I don't think you'd want to change that.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think about that, too,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: of things that I'm like, oh, I could have or should have or, you know, like, I wish.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's all happened for a reason to, like, shape where we're at today.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so, yeah, I mean,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, I mean, it's,
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: for so long,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: we were never taught, like, How to regulate our nervous system, you know?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and alcohol has just been one of those things that has done that for so many years.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I mean,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: in your case,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: in my case,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: it's very similar where,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: it just takes that edge off and you're like, okay,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: I can kind of feel like I can be myself,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know, now and let the guard down and open up and such.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100 Tomatoes is such a great point about how
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: a cultural component often keeps people drinking.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so true.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's so deeply,
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: deeply ingrained in our society, in every event, every holiday, every restaurant.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: The good thing is if you enjoy the taste of it,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of non-alcoholic options that are out now.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're reminding me because I don't do this anymore.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: But when I first kind of quit, I was drinking LaCroix.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would bring LaCroix to a gig and just having that carbonation was enough for me.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: I never really did a non-alcoholic beer, but I know that helps a lot of people.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, there's so many options these days.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: I actually had a really good mocktail the other day.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't had a lot of great ones, but this one was... What was it?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: I knew you were
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: going to have it.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Probably a month ago, and I honestly don't... You know what it was?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was the big drink in Wisconsin is the Old Fashioned.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it was an incredible mocktail, Old Fashioned.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was incredible, actually.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad I remembered that.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was a few months ago I was out and had a mule, like a mocktail mule that was so, so good.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I swear it was better than having alcohol in it.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the OK, so.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's talk about like your creative music career and such.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, like you.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, tell me a bit about that, like that background.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I, I got into music in high school just kind of on my own.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, I just kind of had a pull towards it and,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: and saved up to buy a guitar, a really cheap guitar and amp.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, they were so cheap.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: They actually made me physically ill if I played it really loud.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I, I love playing so much that didn't stop me.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I was into blues and, Like the classic rock, like Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then in college, a band needed a bass player.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And like a lot of bass players, that's how you start.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: You just kind of fall into it.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: But over time, I've learned I really am a bass player.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I have the typical personality, which is kind of laid back and quiet.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want the spotlight on you.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And since I was like 18, I've always been...
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Writing and playing in bands and playing gigs, it's never stopped.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I just say over time,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: it becomes more and more important to me as I wake up to it more and more,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: how important it is.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: There was no music on either side of my family, not even one speck of music.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's why it took me so long to realize it,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: but But now I'll get up on a Saturday or Sunday and I didn't drink the night before,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: so I feel great.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I work on my own music because it's such a priority to me.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really conscious of it now.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And writing on Substack about creativity has helped me really a lot,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: actually, in getting clarity around those sort of things.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so great.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, when you were drinking,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: you wouldn't have as much time to Create your own music and such, huh?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: I probably would wake up often on a weekend and feel horrible,
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know, and I'm sure many people can relate to that.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, really,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: even when I was younger,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: if you drink enough,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to feel just, you're going to be decimated, you know, which is sad.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: But again, you know, we can't change the past.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, and I'm not...
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'm segwaying here, but since I quit drinking, I'm not as social.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be antisocial,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm not somebody who's going to want to go to a party at this point
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: or any place that's loud and crowded.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I found out so clearly that I'm extremely introverted and sensitive to all the noise
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: and the You know, I've been meditating for like 15 years.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I'm more in tune with these subtle energies that are kind of coming
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: at you from the people around you, whether they're good or bad energies.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: the balance has shifted a bit from social to music or maybe social,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: but it's a very small,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: comfortable gathering, you know, and I'm not exhausted by that the next day.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, as I get older, I probably have more energy overall.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not an adult, but I just learn to be healthier and healthier.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I love what I'm doing, so I want to live a long and healthy life.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: At my age, I'm 57, so I'm thinking, well, what am I going to feel like when I'm 70 or 80?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be hobbling around if I can...
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I at least want to do my best to, you know, feel as good as I can, so.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, yeah,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: it's like everybody's personality is different,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: and it's like you get to know yourself a bit more,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: when you let go because it's like all these things are coming up that you have to be
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: with, and so,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: but it's, Yeah, I mean,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't have it any other way,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: even when the days are hard,
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know, I still feel like I feel good in my body, you know, and so, yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: When did you say you stopped drinking?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've been thinking,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: so my girlfriend and I,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: about 10 years ago,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: my ex-girlfriend,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: we were very, like,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: good influences on each other,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: we were really into health,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: so actually, I think Like 10 years ago, I really cut down a lot.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: as you said,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: about five years ago,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: something changed with my stomach and I just,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can't,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can't even really have one beer anymore because it just physically kind
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: of destroys me.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say for the last five years, I might have three or four drinks a year.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And there's really never a reason to do that,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: but okay, very occasionally, but I basically don't drink.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's intentional.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure just like, it's in the moment, you know, you're enjoying yourself.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think about it anymore.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: If my stomach magically healed, I wouldn't be drinking at all.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like it in my life anymore.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: What's your creative process like with writing songs?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's changed a lot.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: When I was younger,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: which is not a surprise based on how shy I said I was.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And like a lot of men,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: let's be honest,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: not to criticize men,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: but I think our culture teaches men or raises men in a way that you can't.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can be very disconnected from your emotions and I'll just say it's your heart.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're disconnected from your body.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think when I was younger,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: in my 20s and my 30s, I really used songwriting as like therapy.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was one of the very few tools I had to deal with really intense emotions.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was also maybe like exercise and then, of course, drinking.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Was like,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: the least efficient way to deal with emotions,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: but it kind of works,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know, I mean,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: it's a price to pay, but, um, so, so that's what writing was like for me back then.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then, um,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: these days I'm more into, um,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have another substack, um,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: called Inside Sky Chant and I release, um, Mainly I do like chant music these days.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still involved with all kinds of things,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: but for my own music, it's like this chant music that uses ancient mantras.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I just find it very relaxing, calming.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's possible to do that with the English language for me.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe someone will figure it out.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: So now it serves a different purpose now.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not so much like an emotional catharsis.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's more...
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Creating music that I enjoy hearing.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the more I get into it,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: and not to be arrogant,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: because I don't know if my music has touched anyone or ever will.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the ultimate goal would be it's music that would be used
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: to help people just be more calm and maybe present.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Think of it more in a utilitarian manner.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can look at other types of music that way, too.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, happy music can make you happy.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sad music can help you deal with sadness.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: But so, yeah, that's kind of a in a nutshell, my songwriting journey, I would say.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's I was just in the gym this morning and I had this artist.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I can't think of his name right now, but
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: He does this giant kind of gold bowl-looking thing that has little indented spheres
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: on the top, and he taps it, and it has the different hertz.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, like a handpan, I think.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's called a handpan, yeah.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, his stuff has a different frequency...
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it says like, you know, nervous system regulation and all that.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's I think that's really cool that you're doing that work.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Help a lot of people.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hand pans are pretty popular in this genre.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm starting to very slowly get into doing they call them sound baths.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I've done a couple now and.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: I really love that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can find things on YouTube, but it's very powerful if you go to a sound bath.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in a decent-sized city, you can find them at yoga centers and things.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: They might do a guided meditation.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: They almost always will play.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: They might play a handpan or different instruments.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think of it kind of as like a sound meditation thing.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're usually laying down with your eyes closed.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really, it's a beautiful experience.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just did one.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just did one the other day here locally.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: All the white big bowls kind of sitting, sitting around her.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it was nice too,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: that she would like, yeah,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: she would do the meditation and such,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: but then she would walk around too with different instruments and And come,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: come near your, your head and kind of like move it around and such.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was just kind of really immersive, you know, relaxing experience.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love that part of it where they walk around and I, I just, I love
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: as you're saying,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: as you're saying that I'm thinking that like I think a lot of people,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: certainly I do have trouble Taking care of themselves,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: like prioritizing their own care,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: like, you know, putting the oxygen mask on yourself first and to go to a sound bath.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like you're giving yourself permission and then the person doing
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: the sound bath is even like boosting that permission.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is time for you.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: you probably have a stressful life and you need this,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: and they're maybe kind of helping you to learn how to Relax and prioritize that.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And hello, Susan.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, along those lines, about 15 years ago, I read Eckhart Tolle's A New Earth.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I had been a seeker, but I just could not find a doorway in.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And when I read that book, it just completely changed my life.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I finally found a path and
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a long path, but eventually I got into the chant music and now the sound baths.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the spiritual growth and the alcohol are very interconnected.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that's a huge part of why I don't miss drinking,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: because I understand now there's much more important things I'm trying to do.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to grow as a person and Um,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: and you know,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: it's an infinite journey and I certainly,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: um, I'm not going to say I'm a real conscious person.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's why I got so attracted to getting into it.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was very anxious and filled with shame.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, well, it's been a really beautiful journey and, and, uh,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to sound judgmental because having a few drinks now and then is fine
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: for some people.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to judge that, but for me, it's just not helpful to have it in my life at all.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I agree completely.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's different in their choices.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know, no,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: no shame to if you do,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: if you do drink, if,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: if you drink a lot or you have a few every now and then,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's everybody's, everybody's choice, you know, to what they decide to do.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: and I think if,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: we honor, honor,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: respect that, you know, it's, it's much better way to move through, through life.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: So what's, what are you working on next?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's coming up?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, so I, um, I write on this, on this substack, release your song.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I, I, I try to do a couple full length posts a month,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: but then on my other one, I usually do one a month.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that, that takes a lot of my time and energy.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I just will continue to work on the chant music,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: because, uh, as I kind of alluded to, I, I, it's just become so important to me.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's all kinds of other projects.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do kind of, uh, R&B slash blues slash funk project with a couple of friends.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we're just getting that started.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And there's an Americana band I've been in forever.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: I guess one thing I'll mention is my first career was called Medical Physics.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so as you,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: that was super logical and left brain and,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: and I, I, and it was a great career, you know, it was really interesting.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I, I, it just wasn't quite right for me.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I left about nine years ago and my intention was to make a living off music and,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: and I, I have made a little bit, a bit of money.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but more so I've just learned a lot of skills I always wanted to learn.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm getting ready to go back to medical physics part-time.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that'll just be a nice engine that allows me to still keep making a lot of music.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think when I was in medical physics,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: a great career for a lot of people, but it took me too far into my left brain.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was consciously conscious of that, how out of balance I felt.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I literally felt like a robot.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was just unmistakable.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: then I left that career nine years ago and it's been interesting to look back
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: and I can actually see how I overcorrected and I almost became like kind of flaky,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: which was really weird for me and more in artistic orbit.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've been kind of rebalancing and Bringing more structure back into my life
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: and bringing back the things that I find that really are good
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: that I lost these last nine years.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: But if I go back to medical physics at this point,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of feel like I could go into that left brain logical zone.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I feel like I could come out of it now at the end of the day,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: which is Hopefully I'm right about that,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: but it's,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: it's been interesting to have that experience where I,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: where I can put myself at these different dreams and explore the different extremes.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been lucky to, to be able to do that.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think, yeah,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think like, you know, sobriety is kind of giving you that gift to be able to,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: To explore that,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: like kind of peel back the layers of like, hey,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: this is kind of discovering like who I am underneath and like what I like and want
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: and all this stuff.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's super, super cool.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I was just thinking about this this morning.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't really read much I've heard about, but I'm sure you know a lot about this.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: But when you drink, not only do you feel Like garbage the next day.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And your brain is certainly going to be a bit foggy for most of us,
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: but don't the effects last like even a week or two?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can it kind of affect your brain chemistry?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Am I wrong about that?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think, I think you're right.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's, it's, it's interesting that you bring this up.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I just, I, I,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've started reaching out to like different scientists and such that, that, that,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: one in particular that, that, um,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just recently retired from UNC Chapel Hill,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: but she's going to be on the podcast in a few months.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember exactly what she said in the email because it was pretty technical,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: but it's not good.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it definitely stays in your system and it starts to change things.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just not...
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing some research on this,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: and then there's
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: a certain chemical and
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: a protein that affects in your body,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: and your body becomes inflamed.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so your body's reaction of what the hangover is is really inflammation
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: in your body, and it's your body trying to react and fight What is going on?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, and that typically happens if you're having multiple drinks.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: if you have one,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: it might not, you're not going to experience possibly a hard hangover and such.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, lots of studies have been done, you know, that's not great for us.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is it fair to say that it can either make you depressed or at least if you're
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: a depressive person, it can And make it worse.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is a depressant.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean, I would say, you know, the thing is, is like...
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So there's probably two parts.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's like,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: the chemicals that's going on inside, you know, but then also like your thoughts.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a combination of both.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: But in relation to your thoughts, you have so many 50,000, 60,000 thoughts per day.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we're unfortunately born into a negative bias from the culture of humanity,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: of trying to escape from being attacked by the giant animal and such.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're always in this flight or flight state.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But now it's like, okay,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to fear because of not having enough likes,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: someone not liking our post,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: and not having enough connection,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: even though we're completely on our phones all the time trying to make connection
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: and such.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have all these elements at play,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: but then it's like if you use alcohol as a way to cope with These thoughts
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: and feelings,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: the feelings that come from these thoughts,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: you're training your body to use alcohol as a way to support your nervous system.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just a cycle that repeats over and over again and you get so used to it.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's hard to quit because you're so reliant on it.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's so easy to just, you have a craving, you have an uncomfortable feeling that comes up.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you pick up the drink and it soothes it within minutes.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: that's exactly why the work that you're doing around music and other ways
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: that we can become more conscious and develop more practices
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: that can calm our nervous system is so beneficial.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely in our society, I think.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you've kind of gotten me thinking.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think I was a fairly depressed person in my 20s and 30s.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it probably had a lot to do with alcohol.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I've noticed lately is when I don't feel physically well,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: for whatever reason, I can get sad and depressed.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if everyone's like that.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: But If I just wake up and I'm tired or I just don't feel good for some reason,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: I want some sugar or something to lift my mood, you know, which is not a good idea.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: But and I wonder if the alcohol, yeah, maybe temporarily it makes you feel better.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I just wonder how much that affected my mood in those years.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And something related to that,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: which might be interesting,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: it's kind of a theory I have,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: like I I used to listen to sad music like really a lot, like every day.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like there's probably research on this,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: but I feel like if you're a sad person or if you're sad,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think listening to a sad song can help you kind of,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: it can kind of amplify that sadness and maybe help you feel it and process it.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of like I think Chinese medicine enhances the symptoms of an illness.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: But what I think happened to me is I got addicted to sad music.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: It became a habit.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I could wake up feeling just fine,
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: reach for my sad music out of habit, and now I'm sad again.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: That was kind of another addiction I had.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I really feel more and more, I feel like people really underestimate how powerful music is.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think if people are listening to sad music every day,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: I really would suggest trying to step back and take a look at that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you really need it all the time or are you hooked on it?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying you should need a prescription to listen to country music,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: but that's something I've thought about a lot.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: What would classify sad music based off the lyrics, the sound, or both?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: because if you look at a lot of music in all genres,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: rock and R&B,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: blues, the lyrics are often really sad, but the music is very uplifting.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's meant to act as a catharsis, if that makes sense.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it's necessarily just the lyrics.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: It could be...
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just off the top of my head,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would guess probably more the music,
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: because I think if you put happy lyrics over really sad music,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: somehow I think that would make it even more sad in almost kind of a surreal,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: kind of horrifying way.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my best guess for you, yeah.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Good, thanks for sharing.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if we have any questions,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: anybody, feel free to pop them in the chat and we'll go ahead and wrap things up.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Jeff, thanks so much for your
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: time today.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for everything.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really glad that I did this and this fear that I definitely had.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I really, for what it's worth, I really appreciate the work you're doing.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Seems very powerful and positive and really appreciate it.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Jeff.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: That means a lot.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with Susan.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: You are so cool.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: I have sunglasses.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think you were great, man.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: You just flowed right along with it.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really glad that you did.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: You offered a lot of great insights and that's what These conversations are about,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's just allowing people to share their story and their their path and
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: and what what works for them.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just really, really good stuff.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to let if you want to let everybody know,
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: because it'll be on Spotify and Apple podcasts of like where to find you and all
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: that stuff.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it'd be great.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It will be.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, with the RSS feed, with the show, I link it there as well.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: will do that.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't aware of that.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for letting
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: me know.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, good.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'll put in the show notes too.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody will have a link.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully I can do a link to one of your chant songs as well.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: That would be cool.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Feel free.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, everyone.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jeff.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great rest of your week and weekend, and we'll see you next week.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: You too.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, everyone.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.