Latest / Gay Men Going Deeper / Mom, I'm Gay

Transcript

Mom, I'm Gay · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to the Gay Men Going Deeper Podcast, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, spiritual life, love and business coach, Reno Johnston. And joining me today is a special guest. She is a social worker, a singer, a sage, a mother, and an honorary mom to many. And my mom. My mom, Alison Johnston. Today we're going to have a conversation about my queerness and maybe queerness in general, sexual orientation coming out, coming out from her perspective, my coming out from her perspective, what it was like for her and what it was like to raise a gay slash queer son. Because those two things are not necessarily the same. They overlap. But you can be gay and not queer, and you can be queer and not be gay. So maybe we'll talk a bit more about that as well. What we want you to get out of today's episode is really an inside look into a relationship between a mother and a gay and queer son. And perhaps you'll find yourself sharing this with another parent or a friend or family member who would also benefit from it. So without further ado, welcome. Let me ask you this question first. How are you feeling? Because this is the first time we've done this on this podcast.
• 1:36
  Speaker B: So, yeah, I'm so curious about what this is going to be like. I'm going in with no expectations, just curiosity.
• 1:47
  Speaker A: So you may or may not know this already, but I've been doing this for probably the last four years. We recorded a while ago our. I think it was our 200th episode or something like that. But this has been going for about four years now. It's super cool. There's like thousands and thousands of gay men and listeners who've been impacted by this. And I'm starting to run into people on the street, which is super cool. And they're like, wait, are you. And I'm like, yeah, that's. Yep, I'm. That's me. You're right. So it's pretty cool. And it's really special that we get to share this moment and this space together. So thank you for agreeing to be here. I know it's edgy.
• 2:33
  Speaker B: It's my pleasure.
• 2:34
  Speaker A: Good. Okay. So I want to ask you, like, let's go back in time. Right. So I love this because it's also kind of exciting and juicy for me because I get to ask you some things that I'm genuinely curious about and some of which you've maybe shared, and I know some I Might have forgotten and things I don't even know. So I'm curious. Like, let's go back in time to my childhood. Right? Let's go back to actually. Let's go back to, like, the really, really early years. So I'm born, right?
• 3:05
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 3:05
  Speaker A: At what point do you go, this one's different?
• 3:09
  Speaker B: I think that probably started when you were around two or three. I still remember being in my room, used to love to watch me get dressed and put my makeup on and stuff. And you'd hang out, and I remember you watching me trying to pick out an outfit, and you went into my closet and started tugging things out of my closet and throwing them on the bed and told me what to wear, and it was a badass outfit.
• 3:32
  Speaker A: And how old am I at this point?
• 3:35
  Speaker B: Probably about, I don't know, maybe like three.
• 3:37
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 3:38
  Speaker B: And so I already knew that you had this knack for style and color.
• 3:44
  Speaker A: Did you immediately assume that that meant I was gay though, or. No, no. Okay. No, you were just like, okay, style.
• 3:52
  Speaker B: And you were raised with a lot of women in your life. A lot of very beautiful women. So my lifestyle at the time, there was a lot of exotic dancers in my life and female escorts, and they were all really exceptionally beautiful women. And so those were your mothers?
• 4:15
  Speaker A: We were a sex positive family. Yes.
• 4:18
  Speaker B: Yes, definitely. And so you grew up around that kind of glamour. I think when I really started, it started to get interesting. You were a little bit older, maybe around seven, six. Maybe six. When you started to create this alter ego.
• 4:37
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 4:38
  Speaker B: Her name was Reena.
• 4:40
  Speaker A: And by the way, let me just say. Okay, her name was Rena. You said. And I just want you to know that this is a no holds barred conversation. So, like, there's probably other stuff you're gonna share, and I just want you and everyone to know, like, I'm perfectly comfortable with us, like, going there.
• 4:56
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 4:56
  Speaker A: So. Yeah. So Rena was. Was born.
• 4:59
  Speaker B: Yeah. So you. You liked to wear. You had this wig with, like, braids in it. And I still remember this blue dress that you used to wear and my high heels. And you'd walk around the house, my name is Rita, and put red lipstick on. And I was fine with it. Dad had a little bit of an issue. Yeah, it was hard for him to swallow. And I remember him saying, can you make him stop doing that? And I was like, no, I won't. What?
• 5:30
  Speaker A: In hindsight, like, what do you think his issue was? I mean, I guess without like, telling his business, but you know what I mean? Like, what do you Think his issue.
• 5:39
  Speaker B: Was, well, he's a manly man. Men don't do that. You know, it's like. And in his mind, I was encouraging you, which I can.
• 5:50
  Speaker A: I imagine you probably got off on a little bit.
• 5:52
  Speaker B: Yeah. And then there was your relationship with your grandmother, you know, who knew also that you liked female things. And so you. She had her collection of Barbies at her house that you were allowed to play with. And it was very interesting because you knew the difference between what was already going to be judged, like a judgmental society. And sometimes you didn't care. But when you went to the playground, you would. And other kids came, especially boys, you would ask her to hide them in her purse. So you already knew that it wasn't so acceptable. And it's interesting that you would know that at such a young age that society was already judging you for playing with Barbie dolls. But you loved Barbies. And the most thing you loved about them was, like, dressing them in cool clothes and you styled them, you know, and, you know, fast forward, we know where that went. Right. And you ended up doing that to people.
• 6:50
  Speaker A: So.
• 6:51
  Speaker B: So you always had this fiery energy, almost like, you know, a black woman. Your head and your finger would go in people's faces. Little tiny black woman. Right.
• 7:05
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 7:06
  Speaker B: We thought she could tell everybody what to do all the time. Yeah. It was tough. It was tough for the males in your life because they struggled with that. That fire. And you were not afraid of them. I mean, dad's six foot four.
• 7:21
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 7:22
  Speaker B: He was about £200 at the time or maybe more. And you would. You came up to his kneecaps almost, and you would stand there with your finger in his face telling him what to do. You can't tell me what to do now. Okay.
• 7:38
  Speaker A: I have a question about this. Did they struggle? Did the men struggle with the fieriness and the femininity or the queerness? Or was it just one?
• 7:47
  Speaker B: No, I think probably both.
• 7:49
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 7:50
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 7:50
  Speaker B: I don't know. You were experimental.
• 7:54
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 7:54
  Speaker B: And very curious about lots of things, including sexuality. As a very young child, I remember that whole incident with the girl next door.
• 8:03
  Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
• 8:04
  Speaker B: And, you know, it was like. What was interesting about that is that most people would have thought that you were the predator being the boy, but you weren't. You were the prey. Yeah.
• 8:14
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 8:15
  Speaker B: And she definitely introduced you to some. Some sexuality that you had known nothing about.
• 8:22
  Speaker A: And I remember, actually, now that you mentioned that, like, I remember being a little bit confused about it. I remember being confused about why she was so Sort of overtly sexual, because it wasn't just toward me. It was towards some of my other male friends. And I was. Yeah, it was kind of confusing. But I. As you mentioned, I think, like, from early on, I was just curious. Like, you've told me stories about me talking to strangers and running off and some risky situations.
• 8:55
  Speaker B: You were super outgoing and just thought it was your business to get to know everybody else's business. That's another thing about you was like, you could tell everybody what was going on in everybody's house in the neighborhood. You were like the gossip guy of the neighborhood. And we come home and tell all the stories, and I know who this person seeing, and I know who that. That girl's daddy was there, but there was another guy there, and he would tell all these stories. And then I remember you hanging out at Lori's, and when you started hanging out at Lori's, you were listening to things that you probably shouldn't have been hearing.
• 9:35
  Speaker C: Right.
• 9:36
  Speaker B: And she owned. Was one of the. At the time, probably owned most of the escort services in Winnipeg. She was the madame, and she was also your godmother. And so I remember times when you would go there and then you'd come home and play phone. And your. Your game of telephone was not like anybody else's. Your game of telephone was, hi, can I help you? Would you like a blonde, brunette, a black girl, Asian? What would you like? And I would be there. Like, you'd be sitting there with one of those little dial phones with the eyeballs in it, playing with the phone, but answering escort service lines offering people women.
• 10:14
  Speaker A: What I remember was there was one thing about that in particular that I remember, and it's this. I used to say, agency fees.
• 10:23
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 10:24
  Speaker A: And it's so weird because I didn't know what that meant back then, but I just remember, like, playing on the phone and. And saying, like, agency fee. And now as an adult, I'm like, oh, my God, like, what was I saying? You know, so you.
• 10:37
  Speaker B: You had the numbers down, too. You would be like, the agency fee is $50. You'd like, oh, it was so funny. And, I mean, I shouldn't have been laughing because it was not something that I wanted you to know, but it was.
• 10:51
  Speaker C: It.
• 10:51
  Speaker B: It just showed me that there was nothing that got by you. Like some kids stay innocent no matter what's going on around them, but you were soaking it all up like a sponge.
• 11:02
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 11:02
  Speaker B: And I think you really liked it. You liked being around all the glamour and the women. And I remember you going To Manaki Lodge at five years old in your little suit. And, you know, you started to really take to that bougie kind of lifestyle. And I remember also one day when I fell asleep, and you called the driver, you told him to come pick you up, that you wanted to go out. I think you were like three, maybe four years old. And you called the driver and said that, my mom's sleeping and I would like to go out. Can you please come pick me up?
• 11:38
  Speaker C: Right.
• 11:39
  Speaker B: Yeah. So you already thought that you should have a driver, you should be in limos, you should be wearing bougie clothing.
• 11:47
  Speaker A: Which I feel like wasn't. It's like that world was kind of there, but it's also. It wasn't our entire world, you know?
• 11:56
  Speaker B: No, we had a. We had a very, like, humble family with humble livings, you know, we lived in a five bedroom townhouse, and you had to share a room with your brothers. And it wasn't like that, but you got to see both sides.
• 12:10
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 12:11
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 12:12
  Speaker B: And so there was this family. Me, you and the kids, and your siblings and dad and. But there was always something different about you, Reno. You were the smallest in the family, but the mightiest, and you feared nothing. Nothing. It was so hard because there was, like, nothing you were afraid of. So punishing you was like. Because if I did something to, like, ground you or whatever, you would just make my life miserable while you were in the house until I wanted to let you out. Right.
• 12:45
  Speaker C: Oh, gosh.
• 12:46
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 12:46
  Speaker A: So I'm curious. Like, you mentioned something about me being experimental. I guess I'm curious about that because, like, in my mind, I have this picture of this little boy, this young boy who's just kind of, I don't know, like, feeling his way through life and kind of figuring things out and just trying different things. So, like, what do you remember about that?
• 13:06
  Speaker B: If you would go outside the neighborhood that you were supposed to be in, you would get your brothers. And you were very convincing. You were kind of a leader when you were young. And you'd have this little crew, your brothers, who were bigger than you. I remember also that you used to like to pick fights with people and tell them, I'm going home to get my brothers. And you had Raymond and Kemp and this other little group of boys that you hung out with in the neighborhood. Also, there were some things that I missed, I think, because I just thought you were perfect. Like, I just thought you were such a good boy. And even though the teachers at school told me you were holy terror, I would just like, always be fighting, going, no, he would never do that. And I. I think the light came on way later in life when you started to tell me stories about the truth, about the things that you did when you were little, that I literally went to war fighting for you over.
• 14:07
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 14:08
  Speaker B: Did do it. For example, there was you lighting the fire. Been on fire, the BFI bin on fire. And the policeman and the. And the cops coming to the door and saying, your son did it. And I'm like, no, he's been here all the time. And I was, like, standing there fighting with them. And they're like, everybody in the neighborhood is saying that your son lit this fire. And I'm like, he didn't leave the house. Meanwhile, you had gone out the back door and come back in the back door without me even knowing that you did that.
• 14:33
  Speaker C: Right?
• 14:34
  Speaker B: And I fought tooth and nailed and said, you know, I was so damn convincing. They were like, this lady's crazy. She's going to kill us. Let's just leave this steps.
• 14:42
  Speaker A: So I want to talk more about that piece. The piece. Because there's something. And we'll come back to it at some point, because I know there are some other things that I revealed to you later in life about how I was kind of living this double life during my teenage years.
• 15:00
  Speaker B: So I was going to get to that. Like, I.
• 15:02
  Speaker A: Right, but before you do, there's still this piece, right? This piece where. Because what I want to kind of get a sense of is when you were like, okay, I'm noticing some things happening, and I think my son might be gay or, like, attracted to other boys and men.
• 15:22
  Speaker B: Okay. So I wasn't sure, particularly about the attraction when you were young, but you just had. I have gaydar. I believe that I grew up in that community and spent a lot of time in that community. And I think that I could see things in you that resembled the men in my life that I knew from that community. And as tough and hard as you were, you also were fragile on the inside. And you saw, fought and sought very hard to have, like, meaningful friendships and relationships with people. And sometimes to a fault where your heart would get broken a lot. And I started to think that there was this side of you that you didn't want people to see. So that tough exterior was a protection for that. That feminine energy that you carried. And when you were Reena, you would strut down the street like you're sitting. It didn't stink. Like, it was just. And I was like, he's really comfortable in that in all of that, right?
• 16:30
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 16:31
  Speaker B: And then Halloween. Tina Turner, I'll never forget that. You got more Caddy than any kid.
• 16:37
  Speaker A: Oh, yes. Oh, my God.
• 16:39
  Speaker B: That.
• 16:40
  Speaker A: That silver. That shiny silver, tight dress, tight dress.
• 16:45
  Speaker B: Coat on, and you looked so good.
• 16:50
  Speaker A: Wait, can I just say, your closet was my playground, y'all. Okay, I just. I gotta say this. I remember back in the day, you had leather, you had sequins, you had. I mean, the stuff I found in your closet. It's a dream come true. And, gosh, I wish you still had it all, because. Oh, I remember that blue sequin dress. And there was the pink sequin dress that.
• 17:16
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 17:16
  Speaker A: It almost looked like this disco ball.
• 17:18
  Speaker B: Yeah. So when the lights hit it, they shone all over.
• 17:21
  Speaker A: Oh, my God, that dress. Amazing.
• 17:24
  Speaker B: So I remember you putting on that tight, sparkly dress and your mink coat, and you looked so good, and people were literally emptying their baskets into your bag because you just look so cool. Right? They were like, oh, my God, Tina. And you. You had it down the legs, the everything. I think at that point, I knew.
• 17:44
  Speaker C: Yeah, right.
• 17:46
  Speaker B: You walked way too well in a pair of high heels. Those men are awkward. You weren't. You did that really well in the struts and all the things. And so, yeah, there was. All along the way, there was little signals. I remember you used to like to rub your dad's feet.
• 18:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, I remember that, too. Yeah.
• 18:07
  Speaker B: And it freaked him out.
• 18:08
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 18:09
  Speaker A: And I. I would say, not that it makes a difference, really, because I have no shame about this at this point for context, my dad is not my biological father, but he's the man who raised me. And I knew that, you know, But I also. I say that. I emphasize that there's no shame there, because also, if you are rubbing your mom or dad's feet, I don't necessarily think that that's a negative thing. And I guess I want to make that clear to. To anyone listening.
• 18:39
  Speaker B: I need to say that your dad was and is. He's come around a lot. But back in those days, even the thought or idea that we were gonna have a gay time was just not okay with him.
• 18:51
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 18:52
  Speaker B: He had an idea about what men should be, and that was from his upbringing. And he believed had certain belief systems, and everything that you did and were doing that allowed you to express that feminine energy. He was totally against. Like, that's why the Barbies were at Gravis, you know, because he wasn't having that in his house. Like, you know, and for a while, like, it was your and grandma's secret, that you had dolls at her house, and that when you went over to Grandma's, you played Barbies. That's what you did. And I didn't have a problem with it. But she didn't want James to tease you about it. She didn't want you to get any backlash from your brothers. And so that was your little secret. You and grandma had that kind of relationship. And I think she always knew, too.
• 19:42
  Speaker A: Let's go there. Oh, my gosh, there's so many threads here. Because I'm really curious about if any sort of alarms went off in your mind, like, oh, no, my son is different. My son is gay, My son is feminine, et cetera. Were you having thoughts about what it might be like for me in the world as a result? Did any of that start to happen? And then I'll get into the grandma stuff.
• 20:09
  Speaker B: But, yeah, we lived in a very small community, and when we moved out to the country, out to Gimley by the lake, it was a very white community. And so being the only black family at the time was enough. But then I knew that if this was your truth, that the struggle would be there for you. And I got to honestly say to you, there were lots of moments when you were young, when I couldn't wait till you turned 18 so I could take you to the city, to the gay bar.
• 20:39
  Speaker A: When did that start?
• 20:41
  Speaker B: Probably in your teens.
• 20:43
  Speaker A: Yeah, before we moved to Kimli.
• 20:45
  Speaker B: Or probably just after we moved to Kimli when I started seeing you, like you wanted to go to. You were only 12, and so you were, like, starting to want to go hang out with friends and go to parties. And I was like, oh. But I knew that you were, like, struggling to be yourself because you were still trying to date girls.
• 21:04
  Speaker A: Well, okay, so this is what I want to ask you, right. Because there's a couple of things here. Remember I had a girlfriend down the street, Chantel.
• 21:11
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 21:12
  Speaker A: And then, like, we were together for a bit and we broke up.
• 21:15
  Speaker B: I remember your first date.
• 21:17
  Speaker A: Okay, so you'll have to remind me because I want to hear more about that. And then also, we're not going to name names. We're going to keep this name quiet. But do you remember that there was a situation with a boy who I was friends with when I was younger, and dad caught us experimenting outside, and he. He, like, gave me. I ran home. And then the two of you were in the living room, and he was, like, yelling and. And angry. And you were. You were basically advocating for me, if I remember correctly.
• 21:53
  Speaker B: Yes, Because Reno, I didn't have a problem with that. I don't think your dad understood that. Like, I grew up in that world. Dancers and all of that lifestyle was very close to the gay community. It was the places. Those places were places we could go and let her hair down and nobody judged us. Right. And. And also, like, there was Kim, you know, and she was. She was gay and identified as my sister because my mom brought her home when she was a kid. And so. And at. Kim was Aunt Kim to you guys. And she was the only sister to me that I had. Right. So I grew up with the whole world knowing Kim and me as sisters. And I went to the bar many times with her when she was the DJ there. I hung out at Ms. Purdy's while I was with your dad. He never really got it and didn't care, but he didn't realize how connected to that community that I was. And it was why he. He could get upset at you, but he couldn't get upset about the whole notion of homosexuality. Right. Even though I could see that he and Grandpa were both homophobes to a degree.
• 23:06
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 23:07
  Speaker B: They had their issues. And we had gay friends. You have to remember Rob. Right. We were really close to Robert, and he was a really good friend of mine and Dad's. But Robert was Robert, and dad accepted that because that's the only Robert he ever knew. But the idea of it being someone that he called son, I think that was scary for him. But for me, I'd already accepted that whatever the heck you decided to do with your life was acceptable to me. And it wasn't just about your sexuality. It was just about who you were, period. But if that were the case, and I thought very strongly that it would be, yeah, I couldn't wait to take you out there where everybody in the world would accept you, where you would find a place in a space where you could be yourself. Because I knew that living in that small community was stifling your ability to be you. And that was kind of hard to know. Right. I watched you trying to date girls while having crushes on their boyfriends.
• 24:11
  Speaker A: You know, their brothers.
• 24:13
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I knew that it was happening, but those weren't conversations that you were ready to have at the time. And so I had just allowed you to figure things out at your pace. It wasn't for me to tell you that you were gay. That isn't my job. Or to help you identify your sexuality. I knew that one day you would grow into whoever you were as long as I allowed it to happen in a beautiful and freeing way. Just let you be you. I remember your graduation and your white tux and your blue contact lenses and your little ringlets in your hair. And you were the only black boy in that picture. And I found you to be very courageous to grow up in that community and go to that school and find friends, real ones that you still have today. That couldn't have been easy. Never mind being gay and trying to hide that from your community.
• 25:06
  Speaker A: What do you remember about that period? What stands out to you about that period? What are some things that you remember about that window of time where I'm a teenager? For five and a half years, we're living in this white rural community in sort of northern Manitoba. And I'm gay, and you know it, but I'm in the closet, you know, like, what do you. What do you remember about that?
• 25:35
  Speaker B: What I remember was helping you to be the coolest kid on the block. Like, that was my mission. I remember your birthday parties, and they were amazing. Always, like, parties that no one would ever forget. And people would be like, why are you doing this? Well, because. Because he needs that extra edge and I need to give it to him, you know, I remember your. I think it was your 16th birthday party when we had literally hired people to drive your friends home. And it was done really responsibly. But we let you guys get drunk and we had a social. Basically, we had a dj, people. Yeah, yeah, it was a big party. And so I knew you struggled at school and there was some bullying going on, but you were also, like, a little at school, but you were so likable, you know, especially by the girls. And what I remember is your little entourage of women that used to piss the guys off. I remember going to a social one night, listening to these two guys saying, who the hell is that guy? And why are all those beautiful girls dancing with them? Well, I already knew why that was happening. Those women, you didn't have to tell them you were gay. For them to feel that sense of safety and make you one of the girls. Like, they knew. They knew before you were willing to talk about it. Yeah, you just get that vibe that it's. It's a safe space. You were a safe space for lots of women. And, yeah, it pissed off the guys. Their girlfriends wanted to hang out with you more than they wanted to hang out with them. So I think that gave some balance to the fact that, you know, we lived in this all white town and we were the black family. Somehow you made Your way, anyways. And I know that there were moments when you were lonely or you struggled, but you also created a really, really good social network for yourself.
• 27:28
  Speaker A: What do you remember about the loneliness and the struggle?
• 27:32
  Speaker B: I think some of that had to do with me and where I was at in my life.
• 27:35
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 27:36
  Speaker B: Because I. I wasn't always able to show up for you in the way that I do now or can now. I was having my own struggles. I was in a unhealthy, super unhealthy relationship for the many years. And during those times, because of who I was with, there was a lot of shame and embarrassment about my partner, too, because of his reputation. So there was, like, a lot going on there. As much as he was a manly man, I think that he was more accepting of who you were.
• 28:06
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 28:07
  Speaker B: Than a lot of other people.
• 28:08
  Speaker A: I remember that.
• 28:09
  Speaker B: Yeah. And so that I will give him all the credit for. Was he really allowed you to be who you were. And he was also in on those parties and those great things that happened.
• 28:22
  Speaker A: I remember him sometimes making jokes about, like, Rena or Geraldine. I remember. No, no, no, no. Wait, was it no Lur Lane or was that Silken?
• 28:32
  Speaker B: No, that was Silken. Would call you Lurlaine, too?
• 28:35
  Speaker A: No, some. Yeah, I think it was like, yeah, Lurlaine. I remember one time he said to me, he was like, I wanted something, and he was like, I'll give it to you, but you have to say, my name's like, oh, I. You know. But he was. I remember he was a real sport about the whole thing. Like, I didn't feel like he had an issue.
• 28:58
  Speaker B: And that was the. So, like, that was the funny thing when you did message me, and I knew exactly what you were going to say to me that day when you said, mom, I have something really important to tell you. And I was sitting in front of the computer because you had messaged me.
• 29:15
  Speaker A: I messaged you first.
• 29:16
  Speaker B: And I started giggling. I was sitting in front of the computer going, here we go. Here it comes.
• 29:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, I knew you knew, too, because I remember you were like. Your response was like, okay, Reno, you know, And I could hear your voice in my head, even though it was through text. And I was like, I know she knows. I know she knows. I was like, I know she knows, though. I know. I know she knows exactly what this is about. Wait, so before. Because I want to get to that piece, too, but coming back, did you know? Like, it sounds like you knew. You obviously knew I was gay. Sort of. Well, before I told you, I think.
• 29:54
  Speaker B: Honestly, to be honest with you, Reno, I knew your whole life.
• 29:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, okay.
• 29:59
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 29:59
  Speaker B: I wasn't going to say that out loud. And I wasn't going to try to push you in one direction or the next. I was allowing you to make those decisions, but I gave you space to make it, if that makes any sense. Where you didn't feel like I had an expectation of you to go in either direction. It wasn't going to be me.
• 30:21
  Speaker A: Okay, so aside from. I'm going to bring this up because I remember you were, like, away or something like that. I rented about $80 worth of pay per view gay porn. And I thought I was gonna get away with it because I was like, oh, the title doesn't show. And you would just think I rented some expensive movies or something.
• 30:45
  Speaker B: Well, you would watch them for two minutes and thought if you shut them off that they wouldn't charge you.
• 30:50
  Speaker C: Right.
• 30:50
  Speaker B: And you just kept renting movie after movie after movie.
• 30:53
  Speaker C: Right.
• 30:54
  Speaker B: And then I got the bill, and it wasn't actually me who found the bill. It was Arnie.
• 30:59
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 31:00
  Speaker B: And he came to me and told me.
• 31:02
  Speaker A: Do you remember what that was like?
• 31:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. And we were trying to figure out how we were going to address this because. Because you both knew it was gay porn.
• 31:12
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. Wow.
• 31:17
  Speaker B: So it was like, how do we do this without completely and utterly shaming him?
• 31:21
  Speaker A: But he needs to get shit because you handled it. You handled it like a pro. Because here's what I. Here's what I remember. And I just applaud you for how you navigated this, because I remember I was at Grandma's and you called and we got on the phone and I started crying when you brought it up. And you said, rena, why are you crying? And I said, I don't want to talk about it. And you said, okay, but you still have to pay for this. You know that, right? And I said, yes, I just don't want to talk about okay. You know, because I knew I was like, shit, the jig is up, right? But I was like, not right now. Like, I can't right now. You know, there's a part of me that wishes I know the time came when it was right. And there's also this part of me that's like, hmm, I wonder what it would have been like if I did have the capacity to go there at that time. You and I kind of had that, you know, knowing, shared that knowing, and, like, were open about it because I knew you knew. And I think you knew that I knew that you knew. But I didn't want to go there, you know?
• 32:37
  Speaker B: No.
• 32:37
  Speaker A: And you were so respectful.
• 32:40
  Speaker B: Yeah. And so was Arnie. He was perfectly clear about the punishment was not about the. The consequences were not about what you.
• 32:49
  Speaker A: Content.
• 32:50
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 32:51
  Speaker B: It was about what you did.
• 32:52
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 32:53
  Speaker B: And so, like, that was a no. No. And you weren't allowed to rent movies for a while, and you had to pay it back. And we were just trying to get you to understand that you couldn't do things like that. It was like stealing.
• 33:04
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 33:04
  Speaker B: And so we treated it in much the same way. And we had talked about it and decided that. That what you watched was not going to be a problem. But we did talk about what you watched.
• 33:15
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Speaker B: We had that side conversation. And Arnie was just like, I fucking knew it. I knew it.
• 33:25
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 33:26
  Speaker B: Everybody knew. It felt like everybody knew except you, Reno.
• 33:30
  Speaker A: I feel that. And I think I knew it after the fact. And I got to give everyone kudos because there were a few situations. But for the most part, nobody who knew me and loved me and cared about me tried to help me. You know what I mean?
• 33:46
  Speaker B: That's because nobody cared.
• 33:48
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 33:49
  Speaker B: Honestly, Reno, you were such an interesting and unique human being. It didn't make any sense. It was just who you were.
• 33:57
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 33:58
  Speaker B: And so it had so little to do with sexual preference and so much to do with what all of that gave you in character. You were an amazing person because of all of those gifts. And your relationships with other women were so good because of those gifts. And you showed women dignity and respect that they always didn't get from other guys and even would stand up to, you know, their boyfriends are acting like. And you would, like, stand up for.
• 34:30
  Speaker A: Them and say, do that. I'll be in a group of guys, and if they talk sideways about women, I check them so quickly, and they're like, why don't you just be one of the guys? And I'm like, because I'm not. I am, but I'm not. And I'm going to check you.
• 34:44
  Speaker B: You know, being cool was very important to you, but not at the expense of someone else.
• 34:49
  Speaker C: No.
• 34:50
  Speaker B: So I do remember that you, like, had to have those sneakers and had to have those jeans, and you would not wear what everybody else wore. And you weren't shopping at Walmart. And I was like, oh, my God, he's bougie. Not just gay, but bougie. What am I gonna do with this kid? What have I created? Because I thought I created a monster. And, I mean, you always had to have the best of Everything. And that was okay. You were stylish. What can I say?
• 35:19
  Speaker A: So did you know that I was living a double life in high school?
• 35:24
  Speaker B: No, not to the degree that you ended up.
• 35:26
  Speaker A: I told you later.
• 35:27
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 35:28
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 35:28
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 35:29
  Speaker B: There was a lot of secrets that you kept, because for me to know that would be that you had to admit that you were gay and you were not saying those words. You were not saying those words, and you were not letting anybody know that that was your truth. And I think. I think you even struggled with trying to maybe prove that wrong by dating some of the women that you.
• 35:49
  Speaker A: Oh, 100.
• 35:50
  Speaker B: And having, like, sexual encounters with women.
• 35:53
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 35:53
  Speaker B: To try to see if you could, like, well, maybe I'm just bi. And maybe, like, just trying to find it and define what. What you were.
• 36:01
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 36:01
  Speaker B: And I think that's why I use the words experimental. Because you weren't afraid to try something different.
• 36:09
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 36:10
  Speaker B: To see if that was for you when it wasn't. You'd be just like, no, okay. No, don't want to do that again.
• 36:17
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:19
  Speaker B: And I remember there was a running joke that when you grew up, if you were still single, you and Colleen, that.
• 36:24
  Speaker A: You know, I've mentioned her on the. On the podcast before, too. So. Okay. So then. Was there ever a moment, you know how sometimes parents have children and they grow up with this vision for their child's life, and it's like, oh, grandbabies and marriage to a woman, and do, do, do, do. Did you ever have to grieve the loss of me not being who you thought I was going to be?
• 36:50
  Speaker B: No, because I didn't think you were going to be that.
• 36:53
  Speaker C: Right.
• 36:54
  Speaker B: I knew that your siblings would do that for me, and I just never, never put that job on you. It would have been nice to have a child from you, because I thought you would be an incredible father.
• 37:05
  Speaker A: Well. And who knows? Maybe, you know, maybe I meet a guy and we, you know, technology and such. Right.
• 37:11
  Speaker B: Yeah. But I also know this, and I need to say this.
• 37:15
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 37:15
  Speaker B: Reno, you always had ideas about where you were going in life, and a lot of those ideas did not include a wife, family, or a husband and family. You always had a lot of what you dreamt of doing and being were things that you would grow independently. And so it was never an expectation that you were going to have kids. I used to joke around and tell you you were too selfish.
• 37:42
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:43
  Speaker B: Everything was for you. So I remember you used to tell me you wish you were an only child so you didn't have to share everything.
• 37:50
  Speaker A: I mean, you're not wrong. Yeah. You're not wrong. Yeah, It's. I'm really loving hearing all of this because it's just. It's really. It paints a really interesting picture. It's kind of affirming in a way. I'm like, oh, yeah, okay. This is always. You know, these. Some of these things have always kind of been there, which is really cool. My siblings. Right. So I came out to you. So I want to come back to that piece, too, because I came out to you, and then you passed the phone to one of my siblings, who then passed it to the next and so on. Right. And the story about me coming out to Joelle is a totally different one, because I don't know if you know, but, I mean, I can tell you a bit in a moment. But before I came out to you and then Cass and Soken on the same call, did you guys ever talk about me being gay? Did they ever ask you, like, is our brother gay?
• 38:42
  Speaker B: It was a joke, remember?
• 38:44
  Speaker A: Right.
• 38:45
  Speaker B: Like, they would joke about.
• 38:46
  Speaker A: No, I know. They used to make fun of me and call me gay. Yeah, definitely.
• 38:50
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 38:51
  Speaker A: But especially when they wanted to hurt me or piss me off.
• 38:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Because they knew it was true. Yeah, they knew it was true. And nobody had a forked tongue like you. You would say things to them and dig deep and. And that's all they had.
• 39:04
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:06
  Speaker A: And it worked. Yeah, it worked.
• 39:08
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 39:09
  Speaker B: Actually, it's funny when I think about when you finally did embrace that and those jokes turned into, like, real jokes, you know, where all of you were laughing and you found things to poke fun at them about because they were the exact opposite. Okay.
• 39:26
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 39:27
  Speaker B: G unit.
• 39:28
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:30
  Speaker B: You'd say to your brother and, you know, make fun that they were gangsters, you know, and baggy pants and all the things. And so those conversations started to become super comfortable and just part of our family, you know, and it wasn't a thing, if that makes any sense. It just wasn't a thing. We just all knew. That's Reno. That's why.
• 39:53
  Speaker A: Why do you think that was?
• 39:55
  Speaker B: I think because they were brought up in. We were all brought up in a way that normalized that kind of living. Like, for me, I didn't. I didn't have the freedom to express my own sexuality, and I was never going to do that to you, which.
• 40:09
  Speaker A: Is so interesting, because Grandma. I mean, man, Grandma was, like, such an ally. Like, you know, I mean, between you and Grandma. Gosh. Like.
• 40:19
  Speaker B: But you have to understand that all of that comes from history.
• 40:23
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 40:25
  Speaker B: So I remember sitting in the car, driving grandma home one night and telling her that I. I think. I think I'm gay, mom.
• 40:32
  Speaker C: Right.
• 40:32
  Speaker B: And I was an adult. I had four children already, But I had this mad crush on this woman.
• 40:39
  Speaker A: Was it Jay?
• 40:40
  Speaker B: No.
• 40:41
  Speaker A: Okay. You don't have to say the name. But anyway, yeah, it was Wanda.
• 40:46
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 40:46
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 40:47
  Speaker B: So I started telling grandma about her, and, like. So when I met Wanda, I was young the first time I met her, and she. I remember her walking into the restaurant, and I had never, never done that or looked at a woman like that before. And I didn't really. Wasn't sure if she was a woman. She was coming from the gym. She's, like, slender, physique, professional athlete. So when I saw her, I thought maybe she was a guy. So I wasn't surprised by my attraction until she came into the restaurant in a pair of heels and a suit with makeup on. And I was like. It blew my mind. And then I had to go home and, like, really think about that. Like, what the hell?
• 41:30
  Speaker A: I think if you're a human being, you have a crush on Wanda. Like, she's just. She's every. She's everybody's type.
• 41:39
  Speaker B: So I didn't know what to do about that because. So when I was a young girl, I got caught with a girl one time, and the reaction was so bad, and I never got to hang out with her ever again. And she was my best friend. And so it was made very clear to me that that kind of behavior. I was an abomination. Right. And I wasn't allowed to do that or think that way. And the twist on that became that I ended up in a lot of bad relationships with a lot of bad men. You know, like, it didn't serve me to shut myself. That part of me down, and it actually probably hindered my ability to express myself sexually in a healthy way. But when I met Wanda, I. She started to change my thinking. But I was afraid of her. Like, very afraid of her. Afraid of the way that she made me feel, because everything that I knew was. Was. Told me it was wrong. And it was during that conversation with grandma, Because I ran into Wanda years later again and started to. We started to kind of hang out for a little bit of time.
• 42:48
  Speaker A: I was around, right?
• 42:50
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 42:50
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 42:51
  Speaker B: And then I ended up. I met Jay, and I had that little relationship for that time, and I got really comfortable for the first time with a woman. And that's what she gave me. She gave me the opportunity to Actually explore those ideas of actually being in a relationship with another woman. And so. And it was a relationship, but I wasn't afraid of Jay, like I was afraid of Wanda. So every time me and Wanda got close, I ran away from her because she challenged a belief system that was heavily, heavily ingrained in me, which today still makes me sad.
• 43:28
  Speaker A: Right.
• 43:29
  Speaker B: Because I really liked her. And I remember. So I told Grandma in the car that day, and she told me a story about a woman when she was young.
• 43:40
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 43:41
  Speaker B: And in her day, it was even worse. You just didn't do that.
• 43:45
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 43:46
  Speaker B: But she said if she had had the choice, she probably would have been with that woman.
• 43:53
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 43:54
  Speaker B: Because they loved each other. But it was so, like, you got to think she was born in the 40s and lived her life in the 50s, and that was a really tough time to try to be a gay woman, especially when she had five brothers. And, like, it just wasn't happening. And she had experienced so much abuse and sexual abuse in her life that. Yeah, she had a rough life, you know.
• 44:18
  Speaker C: Right.
• 44:19
  Speaker B: And so. And it's funny because I think that that. That kind of continued in me. So she was the one who said to me, if that's what you want, do not. I would be happy.
• 44:31
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 44:32
  Speaker B: And so there was, like, unknown understanding of you way before you were born from me and your grandmother. And so why we were we your allies? Because we couldn't be allies for ourselves. We couldn't advocate for ourselves to be who we truly were. And so here was an opportunity for us to allow and to fight for you to be able to be free sexually in your sexuality, to be free to be able to choose the people that you wanted to be with, to be able to choose the people that you loved, regardless of sex, race, whatever, all of it. And so that's why I think it was just easy for us to understand. And we wanted that for you. If that's who you were, then you be that. Be the very best at it. And you did.
• 45:26
  Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, thank you so much. Thank you so much, because I talk about you and Grandma all the time, and I've mentioned you both, and I've even mentioned some of the women you just named, because I grew up around some of the most amazing women and some great men, too. You know, Like, I know they struggled, but also, like, they're great men as well, but some really wonderful people, people who were troubled as well, but, you know, but also, like, some really wonderful people. And I just got to. I got to say thank you so much for. For, like, loving me and seeing me and supporting me and cheering me on, even when I was a bit of a shit disturber. I think you knew that I wasn't a bad kid, you know, And I think that's why you could go to bat for me. So, you know, I want to say thank you to you and to Grandma. And there's a couple more things as we're kind of nearing the end of the conversation that I want to. I want to prompt. So number one would be, so I came out and, you know, the years that followed followed, and here we are now. And I guess I'm curious, like, just looking at all of that, like, what. What does that bring up?
• 46:42
  Speaker B: I think, Reno, the most interesting part of it is I think that you have challenged people to grow. Right. By being who you are and being true to yourself always, you challenge people, all of us, to grow. You have interesting conversations with your father that you could never have before. Before. And he gets to have those conversations that he could never have before. There is a more love and more acceptance than he has grown to have because of you.
• 47:11
  Speaker A: Because he had no choice, I guess. Yeah.
• 47:14
  Speaker C: Well.
• 47:14
  Speaker B: And I think even your grandfather, who was probably the biggest homophobe I've ever known, he learned to be silent and love you for being his grandson. And his only way was to close his eyes to it. And you made that very, very difficult. Difficult. Strutting around on. I remember Pride Day when you came out into the kitchen and you were wearing yellow booty shorts and a crop top.
• 47:42
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 47:42
  Speaker B: And I could see my dad's face. He wanted to come across the table. I could just. I was. And I remember Grandma looking at him and going, winston. And he just turned his head like it was so hard for him.
• 47:58
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 47:59
  Speaker B: But he loved you so much when you were a baby. Like you were his baby.
• 48:03
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 48:03
  Speaker B: And it's like, this is not what I had planned for him. And I'm like, dad, it wasn't your freaking plan. He's not your kid.
• 48:11
  Speaker A: No.
• 48:12
  Speaker B: Dad grew up in the Caribbean, you know, and with some old ways and the fact that he had to grow and, you know, he grew to love and respect you as an adult. I remember him giving you his car and his keys and trusting you to look after his car and. And to look after him at times, you know, and so soon that became something. It wasn't a conversation that needed to happen. You were just Reno. And I think that was the important part for everybody involved in your life, that that was not the thing that made you who you were. It was everything about you. And that. Because to me, that gave you an edge. You know, you have been able to have conversations that people. A lot of men I know can't have. And we have been able to go places internally and spiritually and emotionally that I. I would love to be able to have those conversations with more men.
• 49:09
  Speaker A: I know, but it doesn't happen.
• 49:11
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 49:12
  Speaker B: And you give me a different perspective on the world sometimes that I don't get from the rest of the world. And I wouldn't change a thing about you. Nothing.
• 49:22
  Speaker A: Thank you.
• 49:23
  Speaker B: Perfect. Yeah.
• 49:24
  Speaker A: Thank you. I mean, you're biased because you're my mom, but thank you.
• 49:28
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 49:29
  Speaker A: I guess the last question I want to ask you is, like, if you were to leave listeners with anything, I mean, you know, for. Let's say the gay person who's, like, still in the closet, or the, you know, the gay person or the queer person who's, like, struggling to relate to their parents or. Or the parents or the people around them who are struggling to relate to the. The queer person. You know, it's like, I don't know, what did you take away from this whole experience that. That could be a nugget or a few nuggets of wisdom for these people on either side, my side or yours.
• 50:05
  Speaker B: That it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter as much. If you were a heterosexual man dating women and you were who you were, would that make a difference? If I loved you and everything about you, would that make a difference? Should that make a difference? Who you choose to be with, who you choose to love doesn't take away from the love that you choose to have with your family and the relationships that you choose to have with us. And it would be a loss for anybody who didn't give their child a chance or didn't give other people a chance, because. I'm sorry, but some of the most amazing people that I've ever met in my life are from the gay community. And you're people just like us. Living, breathing, walking, loving, caring. And in my eyes, you have an edge because you possess the energy of a man and the energy of a woman. And people who do that, to me, it's a gift. When I hear that term. Two, spirited. It makes sense to me because you carry the energy of both me and the grandmothers before you, and you carry the energy of the grandfathers.
• 51:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 51:14
  Speaker B: And we don't have. We don't all have that Reno. So I think people should be the best version of themselves that they can be regardless of what the world thinks. I've struggled to be the best version of myself and worried a lot of my life about what other people think thought, and it only held me back. And in the moments that I live out loud and I'm true to myself are the best moments of my life. And I think that other people need to allow people to live the best life that they can, too.
• 51:46
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 51:47
  Speaker A: Thank you.
• 51:47
  Speaker B: You're welcome.
• 51:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's a beautiful answer. And I guess what I want to say, too, is, like, I wouldn't be the person that I am if you hadn't loved me the way you did. And so I just want to say thank you so much. You know, it's like I get to do this and I get to be here in this way and be this person and be this blessing to the world, hopefully, because you loved me for who I was and you saw me for who I was. And so I want to say thank you as well. Yeah. Like, I'm here right now. We're doing this because of you. And also thank you for being open to having this conversation. I think it's gonna, you know, inspire and touch a lot of people. So you continue to be an ally and an advocate and a mom to many. So thank you.
• 52:38
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me. This has been amazing.
• 52:40
  Speaker A: Of course.
• 52:41
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 52:41
  Speaker A: So thank you to our listeners and our viewers. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. If you're watching on YouTube, tap the thanks button to donate. You can also subscribe to the early access option on Apple Podcasts, listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. We thank you in advance and we'll see you at our next event. Check out our website for everything gmbaymensbrotherhood.com and obviously subscribe. Thank you so much, listeners. We'll see you next time.