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What’s Really Sexy (and Nobody Talks About It) · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:05
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and today I'm joined by Matt Lanskill and Reno Johnston. Today we are talking about what's really sexy that nobody talks about. This episode is a love letter to real attraction. The stuff that's actually sexy, that doesn't fit the typical conventional gay checkboxes, but this still makes you melt. And so what we want you to get out of this episode is to expand that tiny, narrow little definition of sexy that has become so normalized in the gay world. And we're going to open it right up and recognize that whatever your age, race, body type, or features, you are sexy, too. But before we begin, a reminder that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support the community by making a donation using the link in the show notes. You could also tap on that thanks button on YouTube to show the podcast some love. All right, last episode. For those who didn't listen to it, I recommend you go back and listen to it. We talked about how to survive in a culture of body perfection. So this is a response to that episode. Okay. And one of the things that pisses me off in the gay culture we might have talked about this last time is how narrow and unrealistic our definition of hot has become. And most of the time, as we discovered, it's not even real. These things are heavily filtered, airbrushed, enhanced in this era of AI, and in my opinion, I tend to see right through it. And it's pretty boring for me personally, and yet it's impossible to avoid. Social media keeps bashing me over the head with it. I sometimes think Instagram has just labeled me as gay, and it just thinks it knows what I want to see because of that, yet it's not really what I'm interested in. So I keep getting bashed over the head with these norms. And yes, like we talked about last time, you know, I do. I do buy into it. We do buy into it in some ways, which is the power of socialization when we're subtly taught to believe that certain bodies and certain looks are the truth of attraction. But in fact, they're just conventions. They're not always reality. So I'm not here to deny that beauty standards don't exist. Of course beauty standards do exist, not just for gays, but all over society. But that doesn't make them true for everyone all the time. And this is where I think a lot of people go wrong. I am blessed with a perspective and Matt and Reno as well, that most listeners don't have. I talk to guys all day in my one on one coaching. I facilitate groups in my personal life, I'm very much. You guys know this in, in the gay worlds, I'm in it, I'm immersed in it. Go to the gay gym. I live in the gay village. My social life is a lot of gay guys. And so I have conversations with real gay men all the time. Real deep stuff. Okay. And when I talk about attraction and types and turn ons, whenever the conversation goes there, whether it's professional or personal, I'm going to say 90% of the time what people are actually attracted to is nothing like what porn and social media would have you believe, which is very important. Tells me something very important, that attraction is personal, clearly. And it's nuanced, it's wide and it's not as hierarchical as maybe society would have us believe. And that's what we need to talk about today. So this episode is dedicated to the real sexy, the overlooked sexy, the everyday sexy, the unconventionally sexy, the things that turn us on. Even though maybe the algorithm keeps pushing us the same old stuff that maybe we like it, maybe we don't, but it's really an answer to that. And it dawned on me while I was thinking about this today that what we call unconventional is actually just unmarketed. And so that's what we're going to do today. We're going to give this a marketing job. This is going to be a little sales job and all the things that maybe social media and porn does not do a good job of marketing as sexy. One caveat before we begin. This is not a conversation of, hey, these are flaws, but we love them anyway. No, no, no, no, no. This is a celebration of everything that exists outside of that algorithm, outside of the convention. Not as a second rate, not as a consolation prize, but as things that actually make someone sexy as. Okay, all right. Last week, as I said, I definitely recommend you go back and listen to that episode. If you are just getting on on this one, go back, listen to that one, then join us. Because we talked about letting go of the pressure to have a perfect body. And this week is about celebrating what's real. And if you follow my work, you know that I get super jazzed about this topic. So I'm really excited to get into it. So let's go with our first question, and let's start with Matt. What is something that you think is actually sexy that not enough people talk about, doesn't get enough love?
• 5:16
  Speaker C: I think off the top, I want to say that I am very much attracted. More attracted to men who, like, don't know they're attractive or they don't act like they're attractive, or they don't use their attraction or their attractability as a currency. So there's a lot of humility in the guys that I'm attracted to. But, yeah, this was an interesting question. I was, like, thinking, I'm like, what are these things? But then I was, like, looking to. Like, it was like, it was right here. Like, it was. These are all the things I'm attracted to anyways. Because usually the things that I'm very much drawn to are not the mainstream things. Like, I'm not really attracted to abs or, you know, big pecs or these sorts of things. It's just not really what gets me going. So. But. So I came up with five. Let's hear five things. So the first one is Crooked Smiles. The guy off of. I can never remember his name. The guy off of this is us.
• 6:14
  Speaker B: Yeah. Milo Ventimiglia.
• 6:16
  Speaker C: Yes. Okay, I agree. Oh, my God. Melt my heart. He is super sexy. So, yes, definitely crooked Smiles. Hands. Hands do not get enough air time because I. They're probably. For me, they're the number one erogenous, like, thing. Like when I'm. When I'm on a date with a guy and I'm watching him work with his hands and, like, you know, he talks with his hands and his hands are, like, masculine, and he's got, like, nice nails and these sorts of things. Like, it's just such a turn on for me. So hands are right up there as. As the number one, I think, blushing. I think it's so, so adorable. The guy that I was just dating would blush when I would say sweet things to him. It was just so cute. Like, it's, like, so adorable when guys blush because it is. There is an element of humility in that.
• 7:07
  Speaker B: Right?
• 7:08
  Speaker C: Like, there's something about that. The way a guy walks is. Is very. Can be very attractive for me. Like, the way he carries his body. There's not one type of walk that I look for. I think everyone has their own unique walk. Um, I would say probably the only one that I'm not attracted to would be, like, a frumpy walk.
• 7:28
  Speaker A: Right?
• 7:28
  Speaker C: Like, guys that are frumpy. But I like someone that carries Themselves, you can tell they're carrying their weight. Right. There's something very attractive about that. And then this one I'm not sure about, but because I, I, you know, I like the berries just as much as I like the twig, if you know what I mean. So balls would be one that I just don't think get enough air time. Or at least I don't hear people saying like, oh, like balls are such a turn on. But I think for me, balls are like just. There's something really, really sexy about a nice pair of balls.
• 8:02
  Speaker B: I love those. I was so curious. I was going to ask you what's the sexy walk? But yeah, you kind of named it a bit. I'm trying to think of like someone who like lumbers. There's like a lot of guys that like either lumber or they're like stiff. They walk very stiffly.
• 8:14
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 8:15
  Speaker B: Like, is that, is that part of it or is it more of like a size?
• 8:18
  Speaker C: I think probably, yeah. It wouldn't be like a sachet. I'm not talking about that kind of walk. It'd be more of like a masculine kind of. But some hip. I like some hip but not too, too swishy because it's like, it feels like you're trying, like when you're a little too swishy. But in this, it's not a trying walk. It's somebody that just walks normally like that and they're just maybe guys that are like, you know, I watch hockey and I'm. I, you know, like, so hockey players, when you see them on tv, like jock like that they kind of walk with. They're just, you can tell that they've, they've got some muscle in their glutes and they, you know, like. I guess that would be what I'm.
• 8:55
  Speaker B: Drawn to, you know, Matt, you have a walk, right? You have a walk. You got a bit of a sachet in those hips. You got a juicy. But you definitely have a signature walk. I can, I can. I've only met you a few times, but I can distinctly remember your walk.
• 9:08
  Speaker A: Yeah. I'm so curious about how you walk, Michael. Like, I haven't seen it yet. So how does Michael walk?
• 9:16
  Speaker C: Quick.
• 9:17
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 9:17
  Speaker C: Michael walks fast. Yeah.
• 9:19
  Speaker A: Does he have a session?
• 9:20
  Speaker C: Maybe a bit. Like, I think your eyes walk might be a little similar. I think mine is a little bit. Because I have got pretty tight hips, so my feet turn out a little bit. I have a bit of like a, like a duck walk in a way maybe. I don't know.
• 9:34
  Speaker B: It's good I think it's funny. I don't know how I walk, but one day, Reno, you'll have to let me know.
• 9:39
  Speaker A: I know I gotta come watch you work.
• 9:43
  Speaker B: Give me some notes.
• 9:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, all right.
• 9:45
  Speaker B: Rena, what about you? What are some of those traits that you find attractive that don't get enough air time and love?
• 9:51
  Speaker A: Well, I like someone who's a bit like. Like someone who's a bit off. Would I say that?
• 10:01
  Speaker B: Like Jeffrey Dahmer off or what?
• 10:03
  Speaker A: No. Although, you know, I shouldn't say this. I really shouldn't say this, but that. I mean, kind of like. But just someone who's like. I remember identifying a crush on Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. What. What is it? What do you call that? What, does he have, like, autism or.
• 10:26
  Speaker C: Well, they. They don't stay in the show, but.
• 10:28
  Speaker A: Right.
• 10:28
  Speaker C: Neurodivergent. Yeah.
• 10:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I just, like. I find, like, hot. Someone who's just, like, a little. A little strange, a little quirky. You know, sometimes I'll even joke that, like, I probably shouldn't say this. Who, Like. I don't. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not even gonna say it.
• 10:54
  Speaker B: It's.
• 10:54
  Speaker A: It's too provocative. But anyway, someone who's just, like, a little. A little quirky, a little off, I think that that's really hard.
• 11:03
  Speaker C: What do you find hot about that? Like, how does that show up physically?
• 11:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, I guess there's something about, like, uniqueness to me. You know, I'm realizing, like, I think about some of the guys that I've been into even, and they're. They're often. And the ones I dated in particular, they're, like, a little bit nerdy or they're just. They're like these, like, rare finds. And I just. There's something really beautiful about that. And I also love, like, appreciating them, you know, and how they. How they sort of, like, sparkle in. In that even more. Yeah, it's. It's something. It's something about that that I. I really appreciate. I. I also like a guy. I. I've noticed. I like a guy who's just, like, a little bit. A little bit ratty, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:07
  Speaker B: What does that mean? What does that mean?
• 12:08
  Speaker A: Like, kind of skinny, kind of gangly cut, like, a little bit scruffy.
• 12:16
  Speaker C: I.
• 12:16
  Speaker A: There. There was a guy I met recently. So cute. But, yeah, he had, like, this scruffy, sort of skinny, like, some somewhat ratty look to him. And also he was like. Again, that quirkiness, like, just. He had this funny way of communicating where he would kind of fumble over his words, but he was like, really, really smart and kind of awkward. And I was like, that's hot. And then I love feet. I do, I love feet. And someone asked me about this the other day. They're like, what do you love about feet? And I was like, well, I also love hands. Right. And. And I was like, well, they mentioned that they love hands. And I said, well, what do you love about hands? I was like, probably the same thing that I love about feet in a way, is what you love about hands, but there's just something about, like, the look of them. And I find not in every case, but like, people. People's hands and feet kind of look similar. And so I love a, like, lean foot where you can, like, like it's a little bit like you can kind of see like the bone, you know, Like, I. I don't know. It's.
• 13:33
  Speaker B: It's. There's a very bony feet, we think.
• 13:35
  Speaker A: Bony feet, kind of.
• 13:36
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 13:37
  Speaker A: But I notice it more most commonly in like, men who are maybe like taller and leaner or lot of testosterone. There's something about their hands and their feet where, like, you can, like, see the bones and you can kind of see the testosterone and like the veins running through them a little bit. And it's so sexy. I don't know.
• 14:00
  Speaker B: Yeah, that was not on my.
• 14:01
  Speaker A: Yeah. I'm just going to say the thing. I'm going to say the thing I was going to say earlier because it ties into this. So, you know, when you see a set of hands or feet, like, you can kind of see, like they look strong and you can see like the bone and the testosterone running through them. And it looks like this person could like, kill you with their bare hands kind of. So I think it's hot when somebody looks like they could, like, kill you with their bare hands or something. But, like, they don't, you know, of course I'm like, thank you for not doing that. But, like, it's so hot that, like, you probably could, you know, I don't know. I'm a masochist, I guess, but yeah, yeah. Hands, feet, someone who's a bit off. Yeah. And then we're focusing on physical, right?
• 14:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 14:50
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 14:51
  Speaker C: Mainly.
• 14:51
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 14:52
  Speaker A: Okay. I think, I think that's mostly. I think that's mostly it for me.
• 14:58
  Speaker B: What's the non physical? And I'm curious now. I gotta know.
• 15:01
  Speaker A: Well, honestly, it's like how they treat other people. Yeah. I pay attention to that and I just. Yeah, it's something that's really attractive to me, like how someone treats other people or behaves toward other people when, like, no one's looking, you know, or they think no one's looking or whatever. And when. Yeah, when they're just kind of, like, doing their thing and they're in their element. I observe things like that. And it's like, it's. It's a turn on, you know? Yeah, yeah. Other people, Other beings, for example. Yeah.
• 15:39
  Speaker B: What I love about this conversation, with what. What Matt shared and with what Reno had shared, is I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who have been nodding their heads going, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, me too, me too, me too, me too, me too. And I ask you, how often do you talk about this? Like, the conversation that we're having? How often do you walk around with your friends and talk with us? Or how often do you look up like, oh, yeah, guys with bony fe or whatever your thing is? But yet, you know, we can probably all agree we are attracted to people who treat others with kindness and respect, and yet we just doesn't. There's just nothing out there about that. Instead, we get inundated with, you know, abs, youth, whatever, all that other stuff. And so that's why I love this conversation. I think that if you are listening to this and, like, nodding your head in agreement, then this just goes to show why we need to have more of these kinds of conversations.
• 16:28
  Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:32
  Speaker B: So I. I think you guys had a lot of them. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go with one. I'm a second one. A lot that Matt had said, kind of. Matt, you said humility. For me, I go wild for, like, a shy guy. There can be, you know, like, especially I. Especially at gay bars, I love finding the guys who are just. They don't want to be there. I'm like, take me to him. I want to talk to that guy. I find them so attractive. They look a little bit uncomfortable and they're, like, kind of stiff. And in their mind, they're probably thinking, I don't belong here. No one likes me. And if they just looked up off their phone and looked at me, I would be, like, drooling because there's this very shy, kind of awkward looking guy there. And so that's always been something that I've been drawn to. I think it's because of what you had said, Matt. I think it is because of the humility or maybe what Reno had said, something off. But, yeah, I do like that. Yeah, Physically, I like the two kind of ends. I like a guy who is thick, like dense. Like, there's just a lot there. And also a guy who's short, like a short king. Give me like a 5, 2, 5, 3, 5, 4. Something very sexy about that. To me, I think that's very hot. And yet again, I think especially for men, men are socialized. All men are socialized to think that height is sexy and that if you are going to be attractive, man, you need to be whatever, six foot, whatever. This is especially true in the straight world, but also in the gay world. But not me. Give me. Give me a short king. Love it. I love that. And then another one. That's really. That's. Does that.
• 18:07
  Speaker C: Can I ask you something? Does that change how you would. Like, like, let's say, for example, like you would want to bot or top the small guy and be taught by the big guy. Does it. Does that influence it at all? Like the size of the person?
• 18:21
  Speaker B: No, no, not for me. No. I've been topped by short guys and loved it. And I've talked and bottomed. Yeah, both ways. Doesn't matter. I mean, for me, that's more of a chemistry vibe thing. Like, once we. Once our bodies start intermingling, I'll know where I want to end up. And then the last one is dad bots. And from when I talked to guys, I was saying, as I was saying on the top when I talked to guys out there, so many guys love a dad bod. They are so attracted to dad bods. And so I don't think that gets enough love out there. And I do think that there are quite a few people who love a little bit of a belly, a little bit of cushion, a little bit of what you call it spare tire. And yet we think so much that we got to get rid of it. It's not good. We have to not have this. Otherwise we're not attractive. And yet when you talk to people out there, dad bods are. Dad bods are hot.
• 19:09
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. There's something to, like the firmness of a guy that's really ripped. It doesn't feel good. Like when you're meshing your body with somebody that is like super muscular, it doesn't feel as good as meshing your body. Like, it, like, it can look better in a sense, but the feeling of having sex with somebody that's really ripped versus somebody that has more of a softer body, it feels better for me at least with. With somebody that.
• 19:36
  Speaker B: What I've noticed is that for the guys who are super ripped. Like when people chase them. It's. It's almost like it's for the trophy to say that. To say that you could and that you did. Like, oh, yeah, that guy over there with all the abs. Yeah. He fucked me. And like. Like, yay. It's. It's more of a trophy of a check mark, not so much. Because you're genuinely attracted to it.
• 19:58
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It's like almost like a. An external validation. It's like, yeah, I got that. So it must mean something about me. It's like they're using that as a curr.
• 20:06
  Speaker B: See? Yeah. Yeah.
• 20:09
  Speaker A: Oh, I forgot one. And I would be remiss if I didn't say it because someone listening will really appreciate this. I love a big nose.
• 20:19
  Speaker C: Oh, yeah, A big nose.
• 20:20
  Speaker A: Oh, I love a big nose. Huh? Yeah, same.
• 20:25
  Speaker B: And even.
• 20:26
  Speaker A: Even if it's like a little crooked or off or something, like, there's something about. Yeah, there's something about a big nose. And if it's like crooked, that's hot too. Yeah. Love it. So if you're out there and you're listening and you're self conscious about your big crooked nose, just know I would eat it up.
• 20:44
  Speaker B: And you know how much that costs to get, like, rhinoplasty. It costs.
• 20:47
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 20:48
  Speaker B: People spend so much money on that. Yeah. I told the story here about my teeth and how I hated my teeth for so long and I was going to spend all this money redoing my teeth. And then luckily, so many people have said, oh, my gosh, no, your smile is like one of the greatest things.
• 21:01
  Speaker A: Love your mouth, Michael.
• 21:02
  Speaker B: Right. I don't, but I do now.
• 21:04
  Speaker A: I've learned.
• 21:05
  Speaker B: But same thing. Like, that stuff costs so much money. And, you know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be me. And yet I thought that in order for me to be attractive to. To make it in this world, I. I needed to, like, have perfect teeth.
• 21:18
  Speaker A: Yeah. No, don't you dare change that mouth.
• 21:22
  Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:23
  Speaker B: Speaking of mouth, another one for me is lisps and accents.
• 21:26
  Speaker C: Okay.
• 21:27
  Speaker B: I love a lisp. Like, like, like Matt, you were talking about Milo with the crooked mouth, like a little bit of a lisp. So a lot to me. Yeah. And people want to, like, correct their speech so they speak perfectly. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. It's so sexy. It's something that's unique and different about you that I think makes you very attractive. Yeah.
• 21:46
  Speaker A: Like Mike Tyson. That's so cute. Yeah, I think. Is it Mike? Yeah, Mike Tyson, I think. Yeah. Yeah, he has a list and it's so hot.
• 21:58
  Speaker B: All right, let's hear from our audience. So for our listeners and viewers out there, if you're watching this on YouTube, go ahead and write this in the comments. Now, what are some traits or characteristics that you find sexy that you don't think get enough love and airtime out there?
• 22:12
  Speaker C: Okay.
• 22:13
  Speaker B: So write that down. Let's hear what you guys have to say. And if you're enjoying the conversation we're having here, we want to invite you to our connection circles. Every month, we host two connection circles where Matt and I facilitate small, intimate conversations about different topics that we discuss here on the podcast. But in a connection circle, we want to hear from you so you, our viewers and listeners, get the chance to come together in a room. We put you guys in breakout rooms, and you guys have a chance to talk about whatever the topic of the month is. If you're interested in joining us, go to www.gaimansbrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP. Make sure you are on our email list so that we will email you the zoom link and all the details, too. Join us. All right, let's do story time for our next question. Matt, share a time when someone surprised you by being not your type, but you still find them attractive?
• 23:09
  Speaker C: Yeah, it came to me right away while I was thinking about this last night. It was probably like maybe eight or nine years ago, I was at a nude beach and saw this guy and, like, I wasn't really attracted to him at first.
• 23:23
  Speaker A: And.
• 23:26
  Speaker C: And then we were like. We had mutual friends, so we were, like, out in the water and stuff like that and, like, tinkling around. And I had wanted somebody to exfoliate my back with sand. I always do that when I'm at the beach. And he's like, I'll do it. So he, like, started doing it and then his touch felt really good and. And then we just totally ended up hitting it off and we dated for two years. And what. Why conventionally is because he did have more of a dad bod and he had longer hair and he had more, like, darker features. Like, almost kind of like Greek looking, which is not usually, like, what I go for. But he. Yeah, we had, like, this insane chemistry. So it was. Yeah, it was nice.
• 24:09
  Speaker B: So what was it that drew you? And was it the touch that all sudden your brain was like, hey, wait a minute.
• 24:13
  Speaker C: It was an energy. Yeah, it was totally his energy and like just something. And he had. He had that walk that I'm Talking about. And he had that, like, just. I don't know what it is. Like, just this energy. Yeah. That I was really, really captivated by. Yeah.
• 24:30
  Speaker B: And that's just it.
• 24:31
  Speaker C: Right. And he was. He's an attractive guy, don't get me wrong.
• 24:33
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:34
  Speaker C: He's just not like the. The classic guy that I would not maybe normally look at or think I'm drawn to.
• 24:40
  Speaker A: Did that experience change the trajectory of and sort of the orientation of, like, your dating life, would you say, after that?
• 24:53
  Speaker C: That relationship, you mean?
• 24:55
  Speaker A: Yeah. And just like, did your preferences shift? Like, did it sort of open things up as. Yeah, that.
• 25:03
  Speaker C: That relationship cracked me open in a big way. It was a very painful relationship. So it cracked me open and it sent me into a major spiritual awakening. And so. Yes, to answer your question, but maybe not how you meant it. It like. Okay, it just cracked me open in the sense of being more drawn to energy. And my. My types are so different. If you look at all of my exes and you were to line them up, you'd be like, the heck. Like, everybody looks so different and so unique. So. Yeah, it's definitely a testament that I. I'm just really drawn to people's character and energy and different things like that.
• 25:40
  Speaker B: I should have asked that as a question. We all kind of go through our exes and show them on screen. Yeah. This is my life. First there was this guy. Then there was this guy. Oh, my God. That'd be interesting. So yours don't follow a type Mat has it. Has it. Like, is there a. Like a pattern?
• 25:55
  Speaker C: Over time, I would say that the only thing that I would follow would be masculinity. I'm very drawn to masculine man. I don't think I've ever dated a guy that's feminine, like, feminine appearing or anything. It just. This is not what I'm into. But definitely guys who are connected to their feminine energy and, like, know things like that, so. Which I actually really love. I love a guy who's masculine, presenting, but very connected to his feminine energy. I think is a beautiful mix.
• 26:22
  Speaker B: Sounds like you.
• 26:24
  Speaker C: Yeah, I guess that would be me. Yeah.
• 26:27
  Speaker A: Your little sweetheart.
• 26:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, I sweat myself off my feet.
• 26:34
  Speaker C: I just. Yeah, I just need to clone myself, apparently.
• 26:36
  Speaker A: Right. Yeah.
• 26:38
  Speaker B: Reena, what about you? Have you ever had one of those experiences where someone surprised you by not being your type and yet you still.
• 26:43
  Speaker A: Yeah, he's down. Downstairs on the hammock in the living room right now.
• 26:48
  Speaker B: Really?
• 26:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 26:49
  Speaker B: Oh, wow. Tell us.
• 26:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, so I was on Grindr years ago, and there was this guy started chatting me up, and I invited him over for pizza, and he said, no, not tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow. And he came over, and I remember this gangly little thing walking down the hallway, and I had vowed I wasn't going to hook up with him and wore a pair of underwear with a hole in them just so I wouldn't. But that just made things easier, apparently, because within about 20 to 30 minutes, my clothes were off and we were on the couch bumping ugly. And so. Yeah. Anyway, and then two weeks later, he asked me while we were making dinner together. He was like, will you be my boyfriend? I was like, oh, my God, I was gonna ask you too. And we dated for two and a half years, and. And we're still buddies. He comes and visits me at least once a month here, actually. Like, we are consistent. And that was. I don't even know how many years ago that was. It was ages ago. Like, we're. We might be approaching a decade soon. I don't know. Or so. Well, I think so. No, no, no, hold on. Yeah, we're getting close. Yeah, it was like eight.
• 28:16
  Speaker B: Eight.
• 28:17
  Speaker A: Well, eight years. Yeah.
• 28:19
  Speaker C: Wow.
• 28:19
  Speaker A: Something like that.
• 28:22
  Speaker C: Where does he live?
• 28:23
  Speaker A: He. Well, he was. He lived in Winnipeg. Now he lives in Seattle, and before that he was in Vancouver. And. Yeah, I just, Like, I was surprised, to be honest. I was like, I. I did not expect you to be my type, you know, But. But interestingly enough, it does make sense now. Like, he's. He's weird. Like, sometimes I joke. I'm like, sometimes you give, like, serial killer vibes, you know? But I. Yeah, and he's just. And he's like. He's weird. He's like, you know, kind of queer in his own way, you know, a little bit of a nerd, but also, like. I don't know, he just. He's very much himself and very unapologetically so, and just like my ride or die in so many ways, you know? Like, we. He accepts me. I accept him for all of our quirks, you know, and it's beautiful. So. Yeah. Didn't see that coming.
• 29:24
  Speaker B: That's beautiful. But you. You still matched on Grindr?
• 29:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, he. I think he messaged me is what happened, and we started talking, and then he ended up coming over, so.
• 29:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, so you gave him enough. There was enough attraction there to at least have a conversation.
• 29:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, because I even remember, I was like. Like, you're not.
• 29:46
  Speaker B: He's.
• 29:47
  Speaker A: He's attractive, you know, and he was even back then. But I was like, he's not really my type, you know? And then apparently he was.
• 29:58
  Speaker B: This is the disservice of. I'm really happy that your story ended up that way, Reno. I don't think that's the common story. And this is one of the disservices of apps is because there's so many options, and then just swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. I think we throw away or we swipe. No. Or we ignore so many great guys who could potentially be attractive and be great partners, but we just. There's almost too many options. We're like. Like. We're like, almost that. That narrow vision. It's like, this is what I'm looking for. I'm gonna skip everyone who's not that.
• 30:31
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:31
  Speaker B: And I think that does such a disservice because there's so many great guys out there who might not have a great. They might actually be your type, but their profile picture is maybe not showing that off. Or maybe they are a great guy in. In so many ways. But, like, in Reno's example, you might not give them a chance. And when Reno did, and look what happened. So, yeah, you know, I think that if you're on apps, it's to slow down. Something I've learned. I can go very fast. And I'm like. I'm not even knowing why I'm saying no. I'm just going, so if you slow down and, like, read the profile, then give yourself an actual reason that. Okay. I'm saying no because it forces you to have a reason, and it slows you.
• 31:10
  Speaker A: Right now it's interesting, too, because, like, you would think he would have been my type because I said, like, I kind of like these gangly types. Right. I'm thinking of, like, Pete Davidson, like, the. The comedian. Or, like, Machine Gun Kelly, like, just, like, this skinny, sort of lean, whatever. But then he filled out, and in my opinion, like, he just got, like, really hot, you know? Like, all of a sudden, you had this kind of, like, daddy bond. And I was like, you're actually, like, so much hotter now, too. It's wild.
• 31:46
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 31:47
  Speaker A: So you just never know.
• 31:50
  Speaker B: Yeah, you never know. That's why I like meeting people in person. I'll always say there's so many people that I met in person that I've hooked up with or gone out with, and I'm like, if I had seen you online, I don't even know if I would have given you the time of day. Yeah. And about energy. It just goes to show, energy is such a Big piece of attraction. And we really need to talk more about. But, like, how do you. How do you. How do you. Like, it's so intangible. It's something you just need to feel. Right.
• 32:15
  Speaker A: People have said that to me, too, before, or they literally haven't even looked at me online sometimes. Right. And then we meet in person, and they're like, oh, damn. And I'm like, yeah.
• 32:26
  Speaker B: Hello.
• 32:27
  Speaker A: Hello.
• 32:28
  Speaker B: I actually don't like when people say that to me. They're like, oh, you're. They say you're. You're a lot harder in person. Like, what the. Like, well, what am I doing wrong? I want to hear that. I want to hear, like. I want to hear you look exactly as I expected. That's. That's, like, the ideal, but. Oh, you're hotter in person. I'm like, I don't know if I love that so much.
• 32:45
  Speaker A: What about you?
• 32:46
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I didn't answer this.
• 32:48
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 32:48
  Speaker B: I don't. I don't have. I don't have one story, like, one cinematic story. For me. It's just been a lot of those happy little surprises along the way. Guys who, like I said, are at a bar, at the gym, or just walking down the street that, I don't know, I just see them and I'm like, something about you, I'm just drawn to it. They just have something. Another thing is voice. If I. If I can hear someone speaking, I'm. I'm very drawn to a voice. And I'm not saying it necessarily needs to be, like, a deep voice, just something about a voice. For whatever reason, I'm. I'm sensitive to that. And, yeah, I don't know. I. I can't tell you what kind of voice it is, unfortunately. But also when people can make me feel comfortable and safe and they're easy to talk to. So if I meet someone, let's say at a party, they're not really my type physically, but we start talking and whatever, and we have a good conversation, my attraction will, like, increase. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, this person's turning me on in, like, my brain, and now my dick wants him. And so that happens to me quite a bit. So, you know, the way. You know, the way people carry themselves, the way they speak, the way they converse, their ability to hold space and be present, that is what makes me attracted to somebody. So even if they don't start off being attractive, attractive to me, they can easily gain it if we get to know each other. And that's why I don't really take my types so seriously. Like, of course, yes, I have types, many types. But I've realized that when I meet somebody, my body responds very differently. So you could be 100% my type on paper, on Grindr or whatever. And then I meet you and is nothing. Like, it's just nothing or the opposite, where you might not be my type on paper, but then when I meet you, all of a sudden, the attraction is there. So, you know, I. I don't take too. Too much stock in types, especially online. Yeah, yeah. It's a good approach. And you guys both had celebrity crushes that. But I can't seem to think any. I was going to ask, like, who are some of your celebrity crushes that you would say are unconventional? You named a few. Reno. Do you have any other ones besides Milo? Matt.
• 34:57
  Speaker A: Odell Beckham was my last one. He's a. He's a. An athlete. Odell Beckham Jr. He's a little queer, right? Like, he's, like, straight, as far as I know, but he's just like. There's something a little queer about him. That's really hot. Yeah.
• 35:12
  Speaker B: I don't know who that is.
• 35:13
  Speaker A: I look this up, look him up, look that up.
• 35:16
  Speaker C: Matthew McConaughey when he was in his 30s, 40s. Like, he's been in my fantasies many times. Christian Bale was always one that I really thought was super sexy. Chris Hemsworth, maybe. Yeah.
• 35:33
  Speaker B: Those are all, like, what I would consider, like, everyone like those guys.
• 35:37
  Speaker A: Yeah, right.
• 35:38
  Speaker B: Another thing. Something I don't like. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
• 35:41
  Speaker C: No, no, you go.
• 35:42
  Speaker B: One thing that is. I don't find attractive is, like, super muscular guys. So he had said Chris Hemsworth, I think. Is that Thor? Yeah, yeah. Like, for me, I don't know. Just.
• 35:52
  Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah.
• 35:53
  Speaker B: I would prefer lean. Yeah, yeah.
• 35:59
  Speaker C: I'm trying to think who would be unconventional of guys that I think are attractive.
• 36:03
  Speaker B: I think the one Reno said is a good one for me. What's his name? You know, Pete.
• 36:06
  Speaker A: Oh, Pete Davidson. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, Wife it up. I'm like, what's up, dude? Yeah.
• 36:14
  Speaker B: You know, it's because he's listening.
• 36:16
  Speaker A: Call me.
• 36:16
  Speaker B: He's funny. I think guys who make me laugh, that's that. And then, like, his. I don't know what it is about him, but he just has a very animated face. He just makes me laugh.
• 36:25
  Speaker A: Funny, weird, like. Oh, God, lean, like, all the things.
• 36:31
  Speaker B: So our listeners out there might themselves think, oh, my God, I'm. I'm weird and awkward and shy, and I have a dad Bod. I think that they're not attractive. And I really hope that this episode helps you see that there are guys out there. And I promise you that Matt Reno and I are not the only ones who find those traits attractive. So I don't want you going into, like, you know, a gym or a gay bar thinking, oh, my God, I don't belong here because I don't look the part. No, you belong there because you don't look the part. And that doesn't have anything to do with it. And maybe you do look the part. You just don't know. I used to see it. Right. Because we. I think a mistake I see a lot of guys make is they think that they need to be what they're attracted to. When they don't give people the benefit of deciding what they like for themselves, they think they know what I like. This has happened to me. Like, guys will chat with me and be like, oh, a guy like you doesn't want someone like me. Like, who the are you to tell me what I want? Like, I will decide if I want you. And I'm talking to you, and I want you. So. Yeah, let's go. Yeah. Amen. All right, guys. Any. Any last words on the unconventionally attractive traits?
• 37:40
  Speaker C: No. I feel complete.
• 37:41
  Speaker A: No, just. Just that sometimes when I'm listening to you speak, you're, like, really hot, Michael. And I'm just gonna name that publicly. I'm just gonna say it out loud. I was like, oh, yeah. Sometimes you just catch my eye in a particular way, and I'm like, hello.
• 37:57
  Speaker B: Okay, since we're talking about it, like, is it. Is it the way I speak or is it the words I'm saying? Like, what is it?
• 38:01
  Speaker A: I. I don't know.
• 38:04
  Speaker C: You know.
• 38:04
  Speaker A: You know what it is. This is what it is. I think that there was a moment. This is kind of vulnerable. That's funny. I put my foot in my mouth. There was a moment, like, quite, like, quite some time ago where, I don't know, you were speaking. Have you ever had this happen where you're. You're, like, looking at someone, but you're not really seeing them? And then. And then you see them, and then you're like, damn. Like, you were in front of me the whole time. It was like. It was like I had a moment like that, I think, where. I don't know. I just. You were talking and I saw you, and. And. And every once in a while, there's just, like, something that happens when you're speaking, and I'm like, oh, hey, what's up? So, yeah, I just embarrassed myself now, but that's okay.
• 38:57
  Speaker B: I love to meet in person.
• 39:00
  Speaker A: Yeah. I'm so curious. I am so curious what it'll be like to meet you in the flesh.
• 39:05
  Speaker B: Everyone's gonna say the same thing. I thought you'd be taller.
• 39:10
  Speaker A: Is that what people normally say?
• 39:12
  Speaker C: You guys are around the same height, I think, actually.
• 39:14
  Speaker A: How tall are you, Michael?
• 39:16
  Speaker B: Five eight.
• 39:18
  Speaker A: Okay, so I'm probably like a half an inch or an inch shorter than you. I think I'm like. I think I'm like five, seven and a half.
• 39:25
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 39:26
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:26
  Speaker C: You guys with 69. Very well. Yeah.
• 39:29
  Speaker A: I'll see you in Toronto. All right.
• 39:31
  Speaker B: And that's a wrap.
• 39:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
• 39:34
  Speaker B: We're getting into the weeds now.
• 39:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, surely.
• 39:37
  Speaker B: All right, my friends, thank you, Reno and Matt, for being so vulnerable and also for shedding light on. You guys got the assignment today. I gave you guys the assignment on celebrating those things that don't get celebrated enough. And you guys did a great job. So thank you so, so much for that. I really hope that the viewers and listeners got something out of this. Thank you for sticking with us for this episode. And remember, if you're watching us on YouTube, go ahead and tap that thanks button. To support the Gaiman's Brotherhood and the Gaming Going Deeper podcast, don't forget, you can also subscribe to get episodes to get episodes early before they're released publicly on Apple. So if you're listening to us on Apple, go to early access and gain access to about 2, 3 episodes in advance. All of your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we thank you in advance and we hope to see you guys at the next event. Have a good one.
• 40:28
  Speaker A: Bye.
• 40:28
  Speaker B: Bye.