Latest / The Prompt / Ep. 576 | How continuous brand building powers ABX success

Transcript

Ep. 576 | How continuous brand building powers ABX success · The Prompt

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This is on base your one stop shop for solving your most
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pressing B2B go to market challenges.
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Each week, host Chris Moody and Paul Gibson talk to sales and
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marketing leaders to get you in depth insights and creative
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strategies to set your revenue teams up for success.
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Well, hello everyone, and welcome back to the latest in
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the award-winning on Based podcast series.
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I'm your host, Paul Gibson, and we always look for topics that
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are a bit interesting, up to date to discuss.
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So I'm excited that today I'm talking with Saum Day.
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He's Global Head of Campaign Delivery at ThoughtWorks.
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And I think we've got a great topic to discuss today to Saum
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why continuous brand building beats one off campaigns every
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time. So, so I'm excited to get into
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this subject with you. Thanks very much for coming on
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the show today. Thank you.
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Thank you so much. So before we get into the topic
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of today's podcast, I always like to start for the listeners.
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Simple question. So if you don't mind, can you
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walk us through your journey to where you are today and what
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you're currently up to? Sure.
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So my career has been overall 20 years plus journey and it has
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always been at the intersection of marketing and technology and
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communications. Honestly, I didn't plan to be a
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digital marketer when I started my career, but I landed that
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accidentally. When I started digital
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marketing, it was still very experiential, experimental.
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Over the years, I have worked with various global tech
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organizations and create various roles to build scalable,
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measurable digital marketing engines.
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This includes paid advertising, martech content, SEO, etcetera.
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And today at ThoughtWorks, I lead the global digital campaign
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delivery function. My role blends perfectly into
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campaign and execution with executive strategy, essentially
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ensuring that creativity, automation, execution, and
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measurable impact come together quite seamlessly.
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That's what I do. Awesome and thought works is a
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is a great place to be based at. Was there anything particular
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that sparked your interest around?
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I know you talk around combining brand strategy and ABX and and
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that dual focus. How has that shaped your own
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approach to marketing? Yeah.
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I think this is always been a question amongst the marketeers
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in terms of how do you do a brand versus your demand or how
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do you look at things which is driving the business impact on
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revenue. But in my mind, I've always felt
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that it's not necessarily about a brand versus demand
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conversation. I think it's a conversation
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which is more around an end to end integrated outreach.
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I think that's what helps to increase reach, stay relevant
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and build trust amongst the users through differentiated
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messaging in a sustained manner for a long time.
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So ABX gives us the ability to actually use data and buying
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group insights to tailor engagement at the account level.
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And again, without a strong brand foundation, this outreach
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will not stick because combining brand and APX will actually
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allow us to tell a consistent story, one that resonates
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emotionally well and also lands commercially.
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But if you do each of them in silo and not in an integrated
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manner, then chances are that users kind of drop off from the
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journey and not necessarily we see the results that we expect
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to see from these outreach. So that's how I, I have always
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thought about brand and demand and ABX and I feel very strongly
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that it's about an end to end connectedness.
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It's less about brand versus demand, but then how do you
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stitch the story together? How do you ensure that ABS is an
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experience for the users? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
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And we we talk about brand all the time day-to-day with with
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customers and prospects. And it's interesting how many B
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to BS still think it's important to get their brand out to
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companies that they can't and don't want to sell to.
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Whereas my flip side on that is if you you've got a brand that
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really is relevant to a particular audience, let's say
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financial services, focus your efforts on getting the brand and
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the trust the financial services companies.
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There's no real benefit of getting a big retailer on board
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and trusting your brand if you can ever actually sell them
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something. But I don't know if you think
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that's a fair analogy. No, absolutely.
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I mean, in fact, if you look at any industry marketing and you
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took the example of financial services, it's very important
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that the brand resonates with the audiences.
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Why would somebody want to, to interact with, let's say, for
4:14
example, a brand if they don't trust it or if they just see
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some sort of a messaging or some sort of an advertising or some
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sort of an outreach done to them.
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So I think it's a, it's an absolute constant, you know,
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enforcing the right messaging goes out in the market.
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You build that trust, you have the effective reach.
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You really, really look into the differentiated aspect of your
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brand. What are you talking about?
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How are you solving the pain points?
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If it's a financial services, then how do we solve the pain
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points in the financial services?
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I think that would be important. And then of course the proof
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points of how you have probably done it with the others.
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I think that's the credibility aspect that you build in through
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your brand building exercises and market.
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So this ultimately then would lead to more of a personalized
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one-on-one communication, one-on-one Avxor.
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And however the state sales in the GTM OPS teams, they would
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want to kind of take it out in the market for, right.
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So, yeah, so to your point, I think that's a very, very
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relevant and valid point because it's very important that we
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actually have the credibility built in so that users and
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clients, they actually listen and come to the brand to
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actually talk about more. Yeah.
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And obviously my background is primarily sales and there's
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nothing more frustrating that having a really big logo come
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into your pipeline. But it's a company, you know you
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can't sell or add value to because salespeople will
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probably go after it if it's a well known brand, right?
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But the chances are they won't close it.
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And then if they do close it, the chances are you can't
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deliver value and it'll bounce and churn at the end of the
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year. So I think it's really
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important. Brand awareness, trust,
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absolutely, but only for those companies that your business can
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actually sell to. So I think very, very, very
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points there. So in your experiences at
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Thought Works, have they influenced the way you think
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about purpose driven brand building and is connecting to
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account based strategies? Absolutely, to quite an extent
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to be honest. So I'm in thought works for the
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last 4 1/2 years. Of course before that I have
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worked with other technology organizations globally, but I
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think that thought works. I have always seen and learned
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from my day one that the brand has always been purpose driven,
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rooted deep in technology with the intent of making a positive
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change in the industry in the market for the humans, right.
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So even if you visit our website, we will see the value
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articulated very clearly. It's design, engineering and AI.
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Now, we are a global technology consultancy that delivers
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extraordinary impact by blending design, engineering and AI
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expertise. But our commitment to design LED
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thinking, engineering and excellence and innovations means
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we prioritize people, we build teams with strong technical
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foundations and embed AI into every step of the process, not
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just as a tool, but as a mindset, right?
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So I think this mindset or this value driven purpose is
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something which has really motivated me during my tenure
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here. And when I as a marketer look at
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this value and then I as a marketer work towards the
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various marketing campaigns, I really see how again the
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intersection of brand versus ABX together, it shapes ABX in a way
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where you do not treat ABX just as a pipeline tactic, but as a
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way to extend purpose into the brine group journey.
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So it's an experience. So it's not about chasing
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transactions, but it's about building trust overtime.
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And that's in my mind is a true ABX.
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So that's how I think how Brandon ABX go hand in hand.
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And of course, sort process did a very, very important role
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because this is a mindset, this is the culture in the
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organizations, which obviously motivates somebody like myself
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as a marketer, like myself to do my job.
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Yeah, absolutely. I think ABX, A/B, MGTM, there's
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so many different acronyms that come up.
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But I think at the end of the day, if you're focusing on those
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companies that but irrelevant, it makes a lot of sense.
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And I think sometimes people look at ABX as a demand Gen.
8:00
only operation. And I would say at least 50% of
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the demand based family we have customers and prospects are
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looking to also influence customers because if you can
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identify that there's a set up set opportunity, if you can
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identify there's a red flag that actually we might be at risk of
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losing this account And using ABX capabilities and and and
8:22
campaigns, you can actually save and upsell those companies.
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That's just as important as winning new business, I think.
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Right. Absolutely.
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Absolutely. You've mentioned that ABX can
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significantly influence reach, expansion and revenue in those
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key accounts. Have you?
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Are you able to break down exactly how that connection
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works in your mind? Yeah.
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So for example, I'll take Thought Box's example, when we
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started ADX, we kind of give it a positioning where is an
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account based experience and not necessarily an account based
8:52
management or an account based marketing.
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Now ABM or account based marketing is obviously a broader
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term lot of organizations that do it differently and in fact
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ABM is just not related to or restricted to one single
9:05
function. It could be marketing, it could
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be sales, it could be and within marketing and sales also various
9:09
different functional units. When I talk about ABX and the
9:13
example that you know I'm going to share is primarily going to
9:15
be around how digital LED ABX is something like what we have done
9:19
because that's that's the work that you know I do.
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So I can give some examples of that and break it down.
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So for example, we have been using demand based quite
9:27
extensively for our AVX once we onboarded demand base and what
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we have done is we have moved our engagements into demand base
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from the traditional marketo or any other martech stack that
9:39
folks would usually use. Now what this has done is this
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has allowed us to see not just who's clicking, but how an
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entire account is engaging. And that was the most important
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aspect of how we wanted to do AVX.
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When you activate campaigns against that intelligence, you
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actually expand the reach inside the account.
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It's not just one person who is known as a known contact, but
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you actually expand the reach in the new account, your new
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stakeholders, newer conversations, which then
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translates into both near term revenue and long term influence.
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You know, once you do it in a sustained manner.
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Now by doing this, we are seeing an uptake of an average 18 to
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23% higher reach than what we were kind of getting before.
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Of course this varies. Then there's a, there's a kind
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of cycle, but this is an average that in what we see.
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So what I have realized is that the key to success here is of
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course the relevancy of the topic and the messaging that
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goes out to the audiences who engage with us.
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And also it's very important for an ABX to be effective or rather
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a digital ABX to be effective. Your tech stack ecosystem plays
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a major role in determining this.
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Now we have integrated demand base with our tech and we have a
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robust tech tech system. So what this does is it provides
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us with an end to end reporting insights and also relevant
11:00
intelligence which we can take it into our messaging, take it
11:04
into our outreach and do those customized one-on-one AVX
11:07
outreach. So this integrated tech system,
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Tic Tac in my mind is a very key to success because it really
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kind of brings in that end to end picture of how your audience
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is engaging, who is engaging, what content is resenting,
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etcetera, right. So that's how we have taken our
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ABX journey at Popworks. And yes, there's a journey to go
11:26
ahead in the future. But then so far till now, I
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think we have really seen some good engagements with lot of
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those newer opportunities coming up surfacing up or users showing
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those interest. We are being able to penetrate
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deep into those accounts and those anonymous accounts
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becoming known is something which I would really want to
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kind of highlight as one of the key successes.
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So that's the ADX is what we have been doing digital ADX.
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Yeah, it's certainly impressive. And, and I think one of the
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things picking up on one of the conversations or comments you
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made in that, that last piece around, you know, that relevance
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and getting to the buyers, what we see a lot is, you know,
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you'll be able to identify the buying group, but you'll never
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be able, sales will never be able to have a direct contact
12:11
with everyone in that buying group, right?
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So I think it's really critical that if you've got a really good
12:15
message that resonates and when sales speak to the people they
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know they are, you know, resonating with that message.
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Marketing have got out the ability to also resonate that
12:25
message to the anonymous people out there that are just as vital
12:28
in that decision, but never actually get to, you know,
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speaking to sales or identifying themselves often.
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So that ability of ABX to give the same message to the known
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and the anonymous I think is a critical step.
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Yeah, yeah. And hence I say that it's not,
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it's a journey. It's not a very short term
12:45
tactic that, you know, you don't have a magic wand to really
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produce something in 24 hours, right.
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I mean, of course, that's the metaphor.
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It doesn't happen in 24 hours anyway.
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But in in fact, it's a journey. If the journey is good, if the
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engagement is long term and relevance, of course, then in my
13:01
mind the results are beautiful. And that's the true essence of
13:04
ABX in my mind, or at least definitely through the digital
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journey, because digital is 1 channel where it's very
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important to continue having the relevant touch points and you
13:13
continue to keep those engagements going with the right
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relevant messaging. Yeah.
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Often it's seen as a slow burn the the ABX approach and and
13:22
everyone wants instant wins these days.
13:24
So what's the biggest challenge you think organisations and
13:27
listeners today will face when they're trying to leverage ABX
13:31
for that immediate revenue impact as well as long term
13:34
account influx? I think in my experience, I have
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observed not only thought works, but also in my previous
13:40
experiences, I've always observed that the biggest
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challenge is maintaining the right balance, the balance
13:46
between the various teams and the functions.
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Now typically sales would want immediate results.
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I don't blame them of course, because that's the nature of the
13:53
job and that's what what's important.
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But ABX isn't a tool which is likely to create a winning deals
13:59
for you overnight. It's a journey again, as I've
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been saying throughout. So in my mind, it's a user
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experience that they go through while they're interacting with
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the brand. Now, by doing ABX, right, you
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are building trust, reputation and authenticity and you are
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connecting with your users all throughout the buying journey by
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staying relevant, right? That's, that's the essence.
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Now, the organizational culture plays a major role in this
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success. So how do you maintain that
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balance? What is that fine balance
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between the GTM teams that sales and the marketing as to what's
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the, what's the goal, what's the vision?
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What's the architecture of your entire their outreach?
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I think that's important as well.
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So I have observed that matured organizations, they usually tend
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to have the balance, which is much more accurate.
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And because they have obviously evolved, they're an evolved
14:48
process altogether. They have the right teams and
14:51
the right technology and the right tools in place to kind of
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really do this outreach and take it forward, which also helps
14:58
them to set the expectations right between the cross
15:00
functional teams. Like this is my business goal
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and how do I achieve it and this is the journey.
15:05
So they have that cushion or they have that maturity.
15:07
But organizations I have seen who are probably less matured
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and who are some of them are in the process of maturing
15:15
currently. It's important that marketing
15:16
and sales leaders, they really work hand in hand to define the
15:19
GTM strategy. I think that's really, really
15:21
important. But most also important is to
15:23
stay flexible. Like you might define the GTM
15:25
strategy, but then you do an outreach, then you see the
15:28
results and you stay flexible and you should be able to evolve
15:32
your strategy as per the business needs, right.
15:34
So it's, it's important to set the right expectations from an
15:37
ABS program and get the buy in from the stakeholders.
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Or if you don't really get the buy in, if the definition is not
15:44
accurate or if your vision is not kind of in the matching and
15:47
sales marketing and not talking to each other, there is chances
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of, you know, there's a high risk of failure because the
15:52
expectation, there's going to be an expectation mismatch, right?
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So in my mind, I think the biggest challenge is maintaining
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this balance or coming to this balance, coming to work together
16:00
as cross functional teams and go to market with a joint goal, an
16:05
objective that both marketing insists can work together on.
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So orgs which does that, we see success orgs which are learning,
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I think they need to adopt. Yeah, I think you're right.
16:15
And stakeholders and sales leaders need to understand that
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they're probably not going to get instant results, but we've
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got to get AB to BS to start thinking like B to BS and not B
16:26
to CS and stop demanding more leads.
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What they want is better quality leads.
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And, and we say that when sales leaders start seeing that the
16:34
pipeline is getting full of quality, not quantity and
16:38
there's close rates are going up and the average order values are
16:41
getting higher, renewal rates are improving, all of a sudden
16:44
this becomes the the concept that they want to force through.
16:47
So I think it's, it is a little bit about patience, but also I
16:51
think the results speak for themselves when the key metrics
16:54
start improving. Yeah.
16:56
And it's a wonderful journey because like, you know, I do
16:58
understand that initially there's going to be that
17:01
hesitancy or there's going to be this little bit of impatience.
17:04
But again, if you are very clear about what you want to achieve,
17:07
as you said, it's not about quantity, but it's water quality
17:11
and the right quality. And then you start seeing those
17:14
results coming in. I think that's where the real
17:18
energy kicks in as well. And then then everybody in the
17:20
GTM, everybody in the teams, they start realizing, oh, this
17:23
is wonderful. Then it becomes a passion.
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Then it becomes like, OK, fine, we need to do XYZ, but then we
17:28
also have the data to back back up.
17:30
Like we have seen that it works, right?
17:32
I think building the trust also takes a little bit of time.
17:35
So yes, as you said, like patience is also very important
17:38
here because there's always going to be learnings and with
17:40
the today's world with ever changing behavior, ever changing
17:44
user groups, like for example, a lot of the decision makers are
17:48
right now maybe in their mid 30s and they are millennials and
17:51
they are kind of really looking at a self-serve content
17:54
discoverability. So how do you really, it's not
17:56
about picking up a phone call and talking to them, but it's
17:58
about always giving them that experience.
18:00
OK, you have that right relevance messaging and we would
18:04
love to engage with you. So that's a journey money by
18:06
itself. So there's a lot of those
18:07
external facing insights we need to bake into our campaign
18:12
planning and thinking because user behavior is constantly
18:14
evolving and changing. Absolutely.
18:16
Lots of really good points there.
18:17
And I know purpose driven brand building is a concept you're
18:20
personally passionate about. What does that actually mean in
18:23
practice, and why do you think it's so essential for B to B?
18:27
If you ask me, yes of course. Firstly, yes I'm passionate
18:30
about it and secondly what it means for me is I feel that
18:33
purpose driven brand building actually means showing up
18:36
consistently with the values that matter and not just the
18:40
features. What I mean by this is like in
18:42
B2B, our buyers are humans. At the end of the day it might
18:46
be B2B and not B2C. The interaction and the journey
18:49
is different but at the end of the day the decision makers are
18:52
humans. So the humans, they would want
18:55
to know who you stand for, what you stand for, and not just what
18:59
you sell. So if the humans know that this
19:02
is what my organization stands for, this is my purpose, and
19:05
this is my value, then they would probably relate better.
19:08
They would connect better. And that's what I feel.
19:10
That purpose makes your brand memorable in a crowded
19:13
marketplace. It differentiates you, right?
19:15
That's why I feel that that's important.
19:18
And what purpose and why rather purpose matter more even today,
19:23
in my mind, there are primarily 3 to 4 points. 1 is consumer
19:27
expectation shift like Gen. Z and millennials.
19:30
As I was saying earlier in my conversation, they actively
19:33
chose brands based on values, values such as inclusion, values
19:37
such as ethics, values such as transparency.
19:40
So it's important that as a as a brand, I have a purpose which
19:44
the users are able to relate to. And these are the users who are
19:47
actually right now in today's B2B world are interacting with
19:50
us, interacting with the brand. Then second is in terms of
19:53
employee engagement and retention, I think top talent
19:57
really, really seeks meaningful work with organizations whose
20:01
purpose resonance with them. I think that's a very key
20:03
important aspect that anybody in the market in today's world
20:08
wants to. So if my brand is offering that,
20:10
I think it's a great thing for a talent to be working meaningful
20:14
on a project with our brand. And then trust in my mind is
20:17
actually equals to a currency to be very honest.
20:20
I mean, today's age, we have a lot of.
20:23
Misinformation, lot of distrust. The purpose actually can help
20:27
bridge that. Like purpose really helps to
20:30
build the credibility and the long term loyalty.
20:32
Like if one really resonates well with the purpose of the
20:35
brand, the trust actually is, is really, really long term, it
20:40
builds and then it continues for a longer run, right.
20:43
So that's what I feel. And again, like with the overall
20:47
global economy, there is a lot of macro factors and of course
20:50
we keep on hearing the various changes in the economy, the
20:53
policies, etcetera. I think resilience in uncertain
20:56
times, it's also very important. The true essence of any
21:00
businesses during uncertainty, how are they able to really
21:03
navigate to that ambiguity, right.
21:05
So if your brand actually has the purpose, then in my
21:09
experience, I've seen that during these uncertain times,
21:12
the purpose really provides strategic clarity and it also
21:17
helps to adopt faster in the fast changing and high risk
21:20
environments. So these are overall experiences
21:23
that I have seen talk works otherwise as well in in my
21:27
career. And from there, I feel that the
21:30
importance of purpose driven brand is really, really great.
21:32
Yeah, I agree with you. And I think even from a personal
21:35
perspective that I think in within demand base I team, the
21:39
average 10 year is A5 plus years, which is unusual in the
21:43
tech world. And I think that's primarily
21:45
down to the fact that they understand the purpose and they
21:49
trust the brand and the people with it and everything we're
21:52
trying to do That's right. So I think in a in this world
21:54
that's fast moving and it's digital everything, I think
21:57
sometimes people who forget the human side of it.
21:59
So I think you made some really valid to that.
22:01
So how do sustained brand building efforts complement
22:06
these ABX strategy you're talking about, especially when
22:08
you're trying to expand influence with an existing
22:11
accounts? See, in my mind, if you ask me,
22:14
sustained brand building is like in simple layman's terms, laying
22:17
down the foundation stones of trust and recognition.
22:20
So if my brand is showing up consistently, so the relevant
22:24
thought leadership, social presence, purposeful
22:27
storytelling is very, very important, then chances are that
22:31
when we are doing an ABX kind of an approach, it lands inside an
22:36
account and not just an inbox, which lot of people might not
22:39
even notice. So essentially it's not a cold
22:42
outreach, it's more about really purposefully ensuring that my
22:47
right storytelling is present, my right relevant information is
22:51
being present and how do I do that?
22:53
There are of course multiple different channels that where we
22:55
kind of do the sustained brand building, right?
22:57
The users should feel like this is a continuation of an existing
23:01
conversation and not just one fine day I get something and I
23:04
get something which is rubbish. And that really doesn't make
23:07
sense to me. I think, I think the users are
23:08
and I think we all have gone through that in our own
23:11
experiences that we really engage with messaging or engage
23:15
with an outreach that really resonates and feels more
23:17
personalized, right. And that's in my mind, if you
23:19
consistently keep doing that, then you really are doing your
23:23
brand building quite well. Now within the existing account,
23:27
this matters even more. Like while new accounts is one
23:30
way they're getting to know the brand, they're getting to know
23:32
you. I think the existing accounts,
23:34
it matters even more because you have already made few
23:36
stakeholders who know you. But buying decisions are not
23:40
necessarily made by one person. But then how would they further
23:43
translate it to the broader organization?
23:46
So brand presence actually helps you to penetrate deeper into the
23:49
buying group, into functions or even geographies at some point
23:53
in time that haven't interacted with you.
23:54
And it's a global organization, maybe one decision maker sits in
23:58
one country, the other sits in somewhere else.
24:00
And then you are a global organization and your sustained
24:03
brand building exercise, you have been able to really, really
24:06
reach the broader set of the account base, right?
24:08
So when ABS activates like specific place, whether it's an
24:11
invite or a piece of content or a targeted ad, it finds a warmer
24:16
audience because the brand has already softened the ground in a
24:19
way. So in short, if you ask me, my
24:22
take would be like brand creates receptivity, ABX activates the
24:27
relevance and together they actually expand your circle of
24:30
influence not your trust over time and turn 1 relationship
24:34
into men. That's how I really see ABX and
24:37
brand and assist in brand efforts.
24:39
Yeah. And I think relevance is, is so
24:42
often underrated, which it shouldn't be, right, because
24:44
it's a critical element. I think if you see often these
24:48
generic messages going out to hear, hey there and everywhere
24:51
everyone's getting the same message, whether you're in
24:54
financial services, whether you're an enterprise company,
24:56
whether you're in mid market, whatever it might be, it's got
24:59
to be different. It's got to be relevant.
25:01
And I think the key to that is often having the insight because
25:04
we hear lots of conversations around buying signals being
25:07
delivered saying, hey, go after that company.
25:10
Isn't that relevant to why there's no insight on to what
25:13
messaging to use? Where are they in the buyer
25:16
journey? Do they know my brand?
25:18
Is it too early to give to sales?
25:19
And I I turn it AI without the why.
25:22
And we'll touch on AIA little bit.
25:24
But if you don't know the reason why to go after someone and you
25:28
can't be told that, you lose faith in it.
25:30
Absolutely, Yeah. And also the signals, I think
25:32
sometimes, and this is my personal opinion, I feel
25:35
sometimes the word signals and the intent are kind of overheat
25:39
because everybody talks about intent, everybody talks about
25:41
signals. But what do they really mean for
25:44
you or how do you really interpret it, whether you are a
25:47
marketing or in sales, how do you really interpret it, right?
25:51
And how is that relevant in what you are really looking for, like
25:55
who you're looking for or that matter, even the user who is
25:58
trying to kind of really look at, right?
26:00
So I think the way one interprets signals and intent,
26:04
how do you marry the first party, third party, all kinds of
26:07
data, there is a analysis that needs to be done by the internal
26:10
team to really identify and come up with.
26:13
And in fact, I like to call it as custom intent.
26:15
Like, you know, I would probably look into the all the sources
26:18
and I would then create from the intelligence, I would create the
26:21
custom intent and say, Hey, you know what, this is what I feel
26:23
probably would be good versus just looking into, hey, you know
26:26
what, somebody is searching for something that is not defining
26:29
intent altogether. So I think we have to be really,
26:31
really careful there regarding a lot of organizations are failing
26:35
to realize it. And again, as you said,
26:38
leveraging, yeah, leveraging those intent, they are going
26:41
ahead with some really, really quick outreach.
26:43
While that can be quick in nature, but then I don't know
26:47
how much actual benefit or actual authenticity that they're
26:51
building. That's a critical part to keep
26:53
in mind as well. Thanks for bringing that up.
26:55
The intent is a very important topic.
26:57
Yeah. And maybe we'll we'll have
26:59
another call another day and dig into that.
27:00
If you haven't got the why I would find it difficult to
27:03
trust. So anyway, so moving on to
27:05
another area then. So digital marketing, I think we
27:08
all agree it plays a crucial role in building that reputation
27:12
for for a business. So are there any specific
27:14
tactics you've found that are most effective when you're
27:18
trying to create that long term brand influence?
27:20
Yeah. So I have looked at digital
27:23
marketing typically from the repetition building aspect into
27:26
three different pillars like visibility, authority and
27:29
authenticity. I think this is something which
27:31
I always think whenever I'm thinking of a campaign or
27:35
whatever the outreach I'm proposing we should do, right.
27:38
So when it talks about visibility, I think few of the
27:41
tactics are always on digital advertising, the usual
27:44
platforms, the known devils LinkedIn or probably a
27:47
problematic channels or your bespoken partnerships with
27:51
certain publishers like capturing the moments etcetera
27:53
or leveraging the new age content formats, for example
27:57
podcast video, etcetera, how what people are kind of using
28:00
and of course the Google ecosystem where the entire
28:02
search search kind of integrated.
28:04
So I think these really always on approach really helps to
28:09
solidify the visibility because you know that you're going to be
28:12
visible. That's one layer I find helpful.
28:15
Second is establishing authority.
28:17
And that's where I kind of think that thought leadership and the
28:21
relevant content and the various SEO initiatives actually really
28:26
help a lot in terms of building that authority, the topic
28:29
authority. Now this space is evolving
28:31
though. I mean, what SEO was 10 years
28:33
back or 20 years back and what it is right now, probably it is
28:36
no longer called SEO as well. It's, it's probably called or
28:40
AIO, right? So it's evolving, the space is
28:42
evolving rapidly and user search behavior and how they consume
28:45
content is changing at a fast pace.
28:46
So organizations that really are invested in scaling content,
28:51
that doesn't just talk about what we do, but address the big
28:55
shifts in the industry. For example, let's say if I talk
28:58
about AI or sustainability or digital transformation, these
29:02
are the big shifts. Now, how do I establish
29:05
authority over there and how do I do that?
29:08
So establishing authority to content and SEO is I think one
29:11
of the ways. And over time, if you do it
29:13
correctly, this makes your brand the go to voice for answers, of
29:17
course. And the third is authenticity.
29:19
And I am a very strong believer that on social media, the human
29:25
storytelling angle and aspects work well because we all are
29:29
humans at the end of the day. We go to social media to consume
29:32
content, but we also like to see the human aspect of things.
29:35
So I've seen campaigns and your outreaches work very well when
29:40
there is authenticity with a human aspect to it.
29:43
Like, you know, you can have your brand purpose, you can have
29:46
your broader messaging, but how you tell the story, how you
29:50
bring it across to life, I think that helps.
29:53
So typically when your executives or employees and
29:57
clients, they shared the experience, it signals that the
29:59
brand is just more than a campaign.
30:01
It just gives that authentic, more authentic and human
30:04
feeling. It's a community at the end of
30:05
the day, right? Those real voices amplify
30:08
credibility. So these are the three in
30:11
combination that is consistent presence, credible expertise,
30:14
human storytelling in my mind helps build long term influence
30:18
and digital marketing channels which helps to do that actually
30:22
goes a long way in creating that brand impact.
30:24
So that's the three usual tactics I have done.
30:28
And of course, there are of course those bespoke in
30:31
opportunities you get. You should always look for
30:33
certain innovative way of doing things.
30:35
And again, again, the digital world is always evolving.
30:37
So I'm always on the lookout for where can I do innovation or
30:41
where can I find innovation or where can I execute innovation,
30:44
right? So anything that comes as a top
30:46
layer to all of these three things, always happy to try them
30:49
out. Yeah, some great points there.
30:51
And I think human element is so important, especially today,
30:54
right? I think we're all starting to
30:56
see those AI driven messages and notes.
30:59
They're very similar to each other and people are starting to
31:02
switch off from it. So that ability to be authentic
31:04
and human is, is becoming more important I think as we move on.
31:08
So there's probably listeners on the podcast whose companies are
31:11
just dying to integrate ABX within their own brand
31:13
strategies. What first steps do you think
31:16
they should take to ensure there's alignment between these
31:19
efforts? The very first step.
31:21
In my mind would be alignment on the brand promise.
31:23
Before even you launch any ABX play, we need to be really,
31:28
really crystal clear in what the brand stands for.
31:32
And we have been talking about the purpose, the differentiation
31:34
and a narrative. I think that's very important,
31:36
right? It starts from there.
31:37
Once that is agreed upon, make sure that every ABX activation,
31:42
whether it's an ad or an event or a piece of content,
31:46
reinforces the promise. So which means if my brand
31:49
stands for X, then my messaging should reflect that in every
31:54
aspect of things. I think, I think that's the
31:55
first broader alignment that one should have in the team.
31:59
So practically, this means that sitting sales, marketing and
32:03
rantings together in the same table and asking then.
32:06
It can be a difficult job for sure, but my advice would be to
32:10
do it and make an effort to do it.
32:11
Like, you know, get all of them together and ask this simple
32:14
question. If a buying group engages with
32:17
us tomorrow, will they hear one story or three different
32:21
stories? When the answer is one story, we
32:23
are ready to indicate, right? A simple exercise, but getting
32:27
the alignment, that's important. And most importantly somebody
32:30
who is starting, I would say start small, pick up a few
32:34
strategic accounts, align your messaging to the brand narrative
32:38
and measure the ripple effects or measure the impact of the
32:41
work that you are doing. That way ABX becomes not just a
32:44
revenue tactic, but actually a living expression of the brand
32:47
inside your target accounts. So start small, get the data,
32:50
get the intelligence and then state.
32:53
So that would be my advice like you know who is starting ABX
32:57
great advice and that. Alignment piece is so important
32:59
and there's nothing more frustrating than having a
33:01
conversation with a salesperson. Well, that makes a lot of sense.
33:04
Then you go to their website and it says something completely
33:07
different. So you're so right on that.
33:09
And and you also mentioned, you know, the ability to measure
33:11
success. When you look at combining ABX
33:14
and brand initiatives, it's really hard to identify brand
33:18
impacts. That's a hard thing to quantify.
33:20
So how would you measure that? Yeah, so I would.
33:23
Look at things holistically, the various tactics and the approach
33:27
that a new take and then the purpose behind what you are
33:29
doing right. So measuring the success of ABX
33:32
Plus brand really comes down to looking it at in layers like
33:35
I'll break it down into layers, various layers at the ABX layer,
33:39
the metrics are something like you know your account
33:42
engagement, your pipeline influence, your meetings
33:44
generated velocity, etcetera. These are the usual ones, right?
33:47
Because these actually show the direct near term impact of
33:50
targeting buying groups and are you reaching the right audiences
33:53
etc. Are they engaging?
33:55
Is that actually making some dent into your overall pipeline
33:59
or is there influencing something of your pipeline
34:01
etcetera? So I think that's the ABX layer
34:03
of it at the brand layer and of course it is more top level.
34:07
It's more about the signals of trust recognition like and how
34:10
do you typically measure that? So your share of voice in the
34:12
market, your sentiment lift, your search demand for your
34:15
brand, your executive visibility on the digital channels, these
34:18
are the few metrics that you typically measure with your with
34:22
your brand. Now these can be harder to
34:24
quantify in isolation, but when cracked consistently, they
34:27
reveal where your brand is kind of standing and how it is
34:30
compounding the influence over the time.
34:32
The magic happens when you connect the two.
34:34
For example, when we see that accounts with really, really
34:38
high brand engagement on social or SEO driven content also show
34:43
a stronger ABX response rate, it goes the multiplier effect.
34:46
And we have seen that so many times that if you are really
34:49
doing it well, then over the time you not only see from the
34:54
ABX outreach what kind of engagements users are having,
34:57
but you see be the broader accounts or the broad, the users
35:00
within those accounts actually searching for you or actually
35:04
engaging more on the various other channels, etcetera.
35:07
And then if you do that kind of a cumulative study and if you do
35:10
the cumulative analytics, you will see that one is having an
35:14
impact on the other. So we have done a lot of those
35:17
tests and we continue doing those tests like during say for
35:19
example, a flight duration of a campaign, maybe it is 3 months.
35:23
So we do an ABX play and we also do the broader brand coverage
35:28
and then end of three months we kind of measure the lift, lift
35:31
study, right? And we have invariably seen and
35:34
if done correctly during the same time, both the tactics
35:38
together. Well, it has the more holistic
35:40
influence and it has the more holistic effect, right.
35:42
So it's more like a storyboarding of metrics like
35:46
the short term ABS outcomes or the long term run signals and
35:49
where you really intersect what is both, you know, reinforces
35:53
each other. So that's what I would say that
35:55
I would always tell my leadership or anybody who is
35:58
asking me that our brand, you know, the story should be
36:01
something like this. It could be I should be able to
36:03
go to a meeting and say, you know what, our brand presence
36:06
didn't just make us visible, it made our ABX efforts more
36:10
effective. That's the connecting the dots
36:12
between the two things. So that's how I would look into
36:15
the measurement of things. Yeah, all really good.
36:17
Good, relevant stuff. And I think if you can
36:20
digitalise, you know, all those those measurements and the
36:23
points you talked about, it helps you get alignment with the
36:25
leadership because sometimes they want instant results and we
36:29
can't always prove that, but we can prove the effectiveness that
36:32
we're going to deliver over time.
36:33
I think that's really important. So can you, if you have one,
36:36
share a specific example where Thought Works have been involved
36:40
and successfully combined that ABX brand strategy to drive, you
36:43
know, real meaningful expansion? Yeah.
36:47
There are quite a few, but I'll pick up an automotive example
36:50
where I'm just not naming the client here.
36:52
But then it's it's in the automotive industry.
36:54
We took the same approach where we had four months of campaign,
36:59
3 1/2 months of campaign where we targeted them through
37:03
one-on-one individual ABX with a hyper personalized content and
37:07
what was meaningful for them. And then at the same time, we
37:10
included the account in the broader brand evangelization and
37:15
our broader brand LED outreach efforts, right.
37:18
So after the four months of the flight duration of the
37:21
campaigns, we did a study, we did a brand lift study, we did a
37:26
engagement lift study. And we actually saw that there
37:29
was a 39% uplift or uptake in the engagement from the account
37:35
based on a combination of brand plus index.
37:38
So this intelligence helped our sales and demand teams to
37:43
actually further conversations with the client.
37:46
The conversations went well in a positive direction.
37:48
So that was one of the examples which, yeah, I thought I could
37:51
share. Yeah, and I think we hear.
37:54
Multiple examples day in, day out of, you know, this stuff
37:57
really works, right. I go back to my earlier comment
38:00
that if you're AB2B company and you sell into a particular
38:03
industry, size of business region, spending time, budget
38:07
and resource on other areas makes no sense.
38:09
So you get this ABX, right? That brand strategy, it's just a
38:13
really good it's, it's the way it should be done, right?
38:16
So when we touched on AI, so when we look ahead, what trends
38:20
do you see shaping the future of this ABX brand strategy, the
38:24
integration side of things? And how do you think listeners
38:27
today and their team should be preparing for that evolution?
38:30
Yeah, so I see a lot. Of trends, but I'll stick on to
38:34
maybe top three which I feel is relevant and which I definitely
38:37
see is going to make those impacts.
38:40
And the first one is we will see that AI orchestrated engagement
38:45
like, you know, we are moving towards an agentic AI systems
38:48
that can design, run and optimize ABS campaigns in real
38:51
time across all the platforms like Google or demand base,
38:55
right? So that orchestration is
38:56
important. So while doing the orchestration
38:59
and staying anchored to a unified brand story teams should
39:02
in my mind prepare by experimenting with AI in
39:06
orchestration now and not little because then we'll fall behind.
39:11
AI orchestrated engagement is the first trend I think is going
39:15
to be critical. Second is buying group
39:18
intelligence is becoming the norm.
39:20
It's no longer OK, we need to have the buying group
39:22
intelligence and we'll figure out how we kind of reach out to
39:24
them. But it's actually becoming the
39:26
norm and AI is really helping to unlock that more and more as we
39:30
kind of progress. So we'll very soon move beyond
39:34
just leads to a holistic buying committee.
39:36
We are already doing that and this shift is already happening,
39:40
but this is going to be much more prominent.
39:41
Like it's not just about leads, but looking at more holistic
39:45
buying committee mapped with precision in your outreach
39:48
efforts, you need to really map it with precision.
39:51
That's what is going to really unlock the true essence of what
39:53
you are doing doing. So I think AI is going to be a
39:55
real enabler in kind of doing that.
39:57
This means that brand stories will need to resonate across
40:02
multiple personal simultaneously, like, you know,
40:05
your finance, your tech and operations and not just one
40:08
particular role or one particular kind of a known
40:11
content, the traditional buyers in the typical B2B world as we
40:14
call them, right? So AI is going to and AI is
40:17
already doing that in many instances and I think it can
40:20
only get better. Like, how do you really do the
40:23
outreach? Much more intelligently across
40:26
the buying group. I think demand base is one
40:27
example of them that I think the demand basis buying group AI is
40:30
one for the example and we are taught plus we use them quite
40:33
often. And I think this is the
40:34
fundamental principle as to how the buying group AI actually
40:37
works. So that's the second thing.
40:39
The third would be, you know, your purpose LED positioning.
40:43
Typically, again, in the crowded B2B market, positions will win
40:48
not just by what they sell, but what they stand for.
40:53
Now, our ABX campaigns will have to reflect that purpose and
40:56
authenticity, otherwise the risk being ignored.
40:59
And in this AI world, it's even more important.
41:02
There needs to be a genuinity. There needs to be an
41:05
authenticity. It's not just about leveraging
41:08
AI to do some work quickly, but it's about how you're doing it
41:12
meaningfully. And if not done correctly, then
41:15
there is a risk that you may get lost in the broader crowd.
41:19
So that authenticity is going to be important.
41:20
So how do you use AI? Responsibility is going to be
41:24
important. So responsible AI is what I
41:26
would like to kind of bring, bring here.
41:28
And typically when you're being responsible in leveraging AI, if
41:32
you're doing it well, then automatically the authenticity
41:35
and the credibility and kind of in the bills because you are
41:37
doing the right thing the right way.
41:39
So my advice for anybody who is looking at like, you know what
41:43
this AI trends, etcetera is going to be there in the market
41:46
is going to be start building the future ready teams now like
41:49
people comfortable with data, AI and storytelling, you can adapt
41:53
quickly. They can adapt very quickly
41:55
versus the traditional way of thought thoughts or traditional
41:58
folks who are not necessarily looking to adapt quickly.
42:01
And the integration of ABX and brand is just not a campaign
42:05
playbook anymore. It's actually an always on
42:08
system for growth. So I think that's how one should
42:10
look into it. And moment this happens then and
42:13
AI becomes a enabler and how do you really leverage AI to scale
42:17
further is going to be the optimization part of it is my
42:20
thought. Yeah, absolutely.
42:22
Again. Great points there.
42:23
And I think AI is going to become the enabler in that.
42:27
The agentic AI stuff I see day in, day out is taking away all
42:30
that time consuming manual. We'll build this list.
42:33
I've got to go and find that. I've got to identify this.
42:36
That's what AI is absolutely fantastic at so that sales and
42:40
marketers can do what they're paid to do, which is selling.
42:43
I think that's really important. And the buyer groups, I think
42:45
it's a term that's been around for a little while now, but it
42:48
makes sense, right? Because they're the people that
42:50
will make a decision on on your solution and, and making sure
42:54
that you're relevant to them based on their role, based on
42:57
their buying signals, based on all of these different things is
43:00
important, which is why I, I used that term earlier and AI
43:04
with the Y, because you're just getting black box signals
43:07
telling you to do things. AI suggesting this and there's
43:11
no reasoning behind it. It really is setting you up for
43:15
wasting at least 50% of your time, budget and resource on the
43:18
wrong things. And I think again, AI without
43:20
the why just make zero sense in my mind.
43:23
So I think there's a lot of really good stuff you've talked
43:25
about there, a lot of good stuff come in.
43:27
And I think anyone who's ignoring AI is probably going to
43:30
get left behind. So yeah, really, really
43:32
important points you made there. Now, you've obviously got lots
43:35
of knowledge and experience, which is really good, and you've
43:38
shared a lot of that today. You also sound like someone who
43:41
probably consumes a lot of content.
43:42
So are there any books, blogs, newsletters or other podcasts
43:47
you'd recommend listeners should take a look at?
43:49
Yeah, to start with, I. Would say the on base 1 is a
43:52
very good one. In the past I have kind of know
43:54
found it helpful. I have also listened a couple of
43:58
times to Pam Dudno for a podcast.
44:01
I think she does a lot of work at the intersection of content,
44:04
AI and B to BI Found it very helpful.
44:06
I think her podcast, B to B marketing and more.
44:09
I think that's the that's the topic is a good listen.
44:12
Good books. I think one of the books I read
44:15
early this year, it was by Sangram Bajwan and Eric Spread.
44:20
Maybe I can send it out to you at some point in time.
44:22
And this book is about why B to B marketing and sales is broken
44:27
and how to fix it. That really talked about a good
44:30
way to really do meaningful ABX or ABM.
44:33
You know, it's a more of a conceptual strategic view of how
44:36
B to B must evolve. It's not a tactical.
44:40
We are looking at ABX, but it's much more holistic and much more
44:42
strategic. Yeah, I'd love you if you.
44:45
Could send me the details of that last one, because I think
44:48
there's this whole misunderstanding that an ABX
44:51
approach is a marketing thing. It's not right.
44:54
It's what sales have always done.
44:55
They've always had an account based approach.
44:57
I can only sell to those accounts.
44:58
So they're the ones I'm going to try and sell to.
45:00
And I think actually if they can work together with marketing, so
45:04
everyone's focused on just those accounts, it's much more
45:07
successful. So yeah, I'd, I'd love to see
45:09
that one. If, if you don't mind sharing
45:10
the details. Sure.
45:12
I'm sure our listeners here will have lots of future questions
45:15
and want to find out more about this.
45:17
So if they do, what's the best way for them to get in contact
45:20
with you after this? I think LinkedIn would be the
45:23
best. I'm quite active on LinkedIn in
45:24
general, so I think that'll be a good way to reach out to me and
45:28
I'll be happy to connect. Fantastic.
45:30
Well, that. Was a really great session so
45:32
thank you so much for your time. There's probably more we can do
45:35
around this subject so don't be surprised if we reach out.
45:38
I have stage 2 of this, but I hope you've enjoyed doing this.
45:42
I hope the listeners have enjoyed listening to the
45:43
episode. Don't forget, there's nearly 600
45:46
other episodes in the on base series, so make sure you check
45:50
them out. And in the meantime, thanks
45:51
again, Tom. Thanks everyone for listening.
45:53
And until the next time, Cheerio, thank you.
45:57
Thanks for joining us for On Base.
45:59
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