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E9 Which Innovation to Choose? With Craig Hellen · Stronger Business Together

• Granger Forson: So this is the Stronger Business Together podcast where business owners learn from each other's experiences. No theory, no gurus, just real journeys and overcoming real hurdles. Today I'm joined by Craig Helen of Bex Media and like any owner he's in the middle of building things, fixing things and making growth ⁓ that really matters for what he wants to achieve. So Craig, welcome. ⁓ Thank you for spending your time with us today. We're on a mission to make business stronger together. If this conversation helped you, please comment and follow on whatever platform you're using. About 60 % of the audience haven't done that yet and those small actions will help us reach more business owners just like you. you want to join the conversation as a guest ⁓ if you have a hurdle question for us to tackle then reach out at ⁓ at strongerbusinesstogether.com Craig Hellen: Hey Granger, good to be here. Granger Forson: Awesome. So, Greg, let's start with Act 1. Tell me all about your business. So, in plain English, what does your business do? Craig Hellen: Okay, I'll do my best. So I run a business called Bex Media and we're a video production agency, predominantly small. four of us in the team currently ⁓ with bunch of ⁓ very friendly freelancers that help us along our journey. And you've going for, well, almost, I think we're almost in our 19th year now. So yeah, started up from the bedroom ⁓ post-university. Granger Forson: Now, go make it a successful week and we'll see you next time. Cheers! Craig Hellen: and a very obviously slow organic growth, but exciting in other ways along the way. So yeah, that's us. do anything from ⁓ graphics, 3D animation, drone work, but moreover understanding our clients and applying the right creative solutions ⁓ connect with their audience. Granger Forson: Brilliant! who do love helping and what are they typically dealing with then? Craig Hellen: Good question, because we help a lot of different types of people. I just go from my personal perspective, I think that would be easier. I enjoy either ⁓ people are ⁓ trying do good with what trying do in their business. then they so that be someone who's got a very interesting ⁓ social project, which has genuine commercial benefit, but with really strong social benefit as well. We love technology-based and science-based stuff here as well, because we pride ourselves on really getting to the nitty-gritty of the detail and what that means to their audience. people with new scientific innovation-based projects, we get to the understanding of what that means and then how we then can apply our magic. to then help them communicate that in a really, really effective way. broadly those two sides, innovation and social change in good, that's a big win for me. Granger Forson: And being sort of video and motion graphics and things effectively you're telling stories, is that right? Craig Hellen: Yeah, yeah, stories and stories that connect and why, asking ⁓ why it's why this worth telling? It's always interesting one to ask. So because there's lot of there's a lot of push of content and being brave enough sometimes be in those rooms and say, why are we doing this? Granger Forson: Hmm. Craig Hellen: because often that will involve much better conversation around that. you do this thing, why, you then discuss the why and actually you work out whether that thing is the right thing to do in the first place, right? So, it could lead you in a very different direction which is a bit more interesting. Granger Forson: So let's go back to the start. said nearly 19 years. ⁓ was the original idea, the spark, the start of the business? Craig Hellen: you might go a little bit further back. sorry. I I product design university. So that was that was kind of my background from an academic point of view broadly. Tinkering, making things. So that's that's a fairly common thing tinkering and making things is a common common thing. But the if you go a bit further back still. I was a skateboarder as a kid and I still try. mean, I've always just tried. I've never succeeded. Always tried and still now, but I used to make skate videos. I like that. I got a lot of experience early. I got my first camera when I was like 13. I think it was an SVHSC camera. dragged that around the various skate parks of the Southwest. But it meant I had a camera in my hands early and that was different, right? And often and I'm sure it's not just our profession, but it's people that find that early that just gives them the jump in the gun a little bit. You've got more time on the tools. so then forward winding to university, did the university thing, did a cool entrepreneurial fellowship in the States, which was crazy. we're there for six months with some of the finest entrepreneurial minds in the States and a bunch of English people to try and leech off their intellect. But then came back to Gloucestershire with a bit of a bump. We were no longer in Silicon Valley. We were in Gloucestershire. Or I was in Gloucestershire by myself with a keyboard and a laptop and a camera. And that's really where it started. Granger Forson: Wow, fantastic. What a brilliant origin story. love that. really of you had that grounded entrepreneurship before you even got going. Brilliant. what does business look like today in size and shape? ⁓ Craig Hellen: Yeah, so we're, as I say, four people as in ⁓ myself and food, I guess. And it's changed quite a lot. We grew little bit, we shrank a little bit. And I think a fairly common journey for lots of SMEs that initial growth, maybe that some of the ⁓ the thoughts of that growth maybe were too, were maybe a little bit misguided, frankly, and not quite aligned with what our customers really responded well to. And so, know, there's a bit of change happening at the moment and realigning that indeed just got off a call about how we really solidify that into something that we hang our hats on. And so now we are, we are, you know, very well experienced team across a lot of different areas. the, the term that ⁓ I came up with ⁓ in a meeting with yourself was surprisingly brilliant. Like we're small, we're tiny, but actually what we're able to achieve within these walls, with some ⁓ obviously people around us as well. The years of the freelancers are mentioned in the opening. we're able to achieve is impressive and some of the things that we've done ⁓ really memorable for everybody. yeah, that's ⁓ brilliant, is a good one that we try and ⁓ by. Granger Forson: Surprisingly brilliant, yes, yes I do. And you and I work together and really enjoy conversations and debates and discussions as we challenge what comes next in the business. yeah, been lots of fun. So, ⁓ well, let's ⁓ talk your customers then. ⁓ Why they typically pick you? ⁓ How you delight them? Craig Hellen: customer journey is an interesting one with us because the start for the conversations is often through a real either knee-jerk need or a very specific need. So they're not coming to us saying, we want you to be our go-to content agency because that's not what we come across as. but it's kind of something that we strive towards for the right client. we delight them in all sorts of different ways and we do our very best even with first project to try and really understand their product, them, stakeholders, their markets, ⁓ what makes them and why they exist for their customers. So we're not. We're not aiming to produce a video. We're aiming to understand things to produce the right creative output. Then once we get past that, and hopefully they're delighted by the output, But then we learn by iteration. And that's the aim is to keep on learning by iteration. So by building up that knowledge, because we don't have a huge research team, know, chat GPT excluded obviously, but you know, never gets it right for that. Certainly for that initial bit, let's be honest. So because we don't have that research team, we can't be a turnkey in two months, we're going to give you the perfect activation content. across your verticals. We can't do that that quickly. But what we can do is we can take one thing on, we can learn, we can take another thing on, can learn, we can put the effort and the time in, and we can also start looking at what our other clients are doing or other markets are doing and seeing if we can cross-pollinate ideas from one place to another and then add value and then learn and add value, add value to the point where we can be that agency. that can do a lot of things that are helpful within those larger businesses. So that's kind of the aim from a client journey perspective. And our is to learn. Granger Forson: ⁓ that's what I love You've talked the you've talked about understanding the why, you've talked about adding value, but I love that phrase. You you're there to learn and you're learning with them and helping them achieve, the success that they're looking for with whatever the campaign or the story or the go-to-market they're trying to create. So tell me about ⁓ one customer success that you're really of. Craig Hellen: Okay. I'm going to tell you all which is completely counter to everything we've just talked about because it's passion thing because it's one I look I just can't get out of my head. the English Heritage, they came to us with a very and this was in the earlier days of drone. So we were quite early into drone work and heard we do that. they came to us ⁓ about the the Stonehenge 100 years of being gifted to English heritage so being accessible ⁓ to nation. sort of, you know, a custodianship of should we say by English heritage. And we never thought we'd pull this off, ⁓ frankly. But the was you have the You have the O of, imagine you're at Ariel's or a drone, looking down. You have the O of the Henge on the right hand side of the frame, and then we make another O of people, and we make another one of people on that scale. So big stuff. and that'd be the hero shot to this piece, where it's the idea is that we're on sunrise morning, and all these people have come together to celebrate this. And our job was to tell that little bit of the story the end of the hundred years and the looking forward to the next. And was just, it's just a joyous, joyous day where, you know, at four o'clock in the morning before sunrise, I was sat with my Sony ⁓ FS7, down the other end of the car park and visitors centre. I had been left in the middle of Stonehenge waiting for them to turn up and we were filming the opening on handheld cameras before we filmed the end shot of the drag. I was by myself. at four o'clock in the morning as the sun was just starting to behind the horizon in the middle of Stonehenge. for about 10, 20 minutes, I just sat there and I was like, this is special. ⁓ And it's little like that. So how we help the customer in that was we told a great story for the day. And the story hit and was a beautiful piece of work. But the story for me in is I to do something very, very special. for me that of people wouldn't do, wouldn't be able to do. I look back on that thinking as far as a business achievement is concerned for me, that was a high one. Granger Forson: Wow, that's Thank you so much for sharing that. That's a real magical moment as well as a ⁓ story. So business leads. That's our lifeblood bringing opportunities in. So how do you go generating leads? Craig Hellen: Good question. Well, yeah, coming on and respectable podcasts such as this one. we, but yeah, it's because I've done the network thing. That's how I learned a lot through the network marketing, face-to-face network marketing. And it worked really, really when the room was good and variable as the room changed. And it takes a lot of effort. Granger Forson: Thank Craig Hellen: and a lot of time. you kind of get to a point in the business where the model kind of feels like it doesn't quite align anymore and you to change things. Obviously, relationship and referral marketing the clients and within how you work, absolutely. If you're talking about new leads, is that what we're talking here or are we talking about leads generally? Granger Forson: Give us an example really of ⁓ types that maybe you do and what's successful for you. ⁓ Craig Hellen: Okay. Yes. So an internal lead, there's an internal leads born out of education, out of learning in our experiences. making the effort to understand what's current, different, change, relevant, things that we need to know. And it's not necessarily for the instant of I just need to talk to that person again. to stay front of mind. It doesn't necessarily come from that. Maybe there is a shade of that, if we're all honest. There's probably a shade of that. But actually, if we make the effort to stay up to date in the right way for the clients that we work with, then whatever we're challenged with doing something, which often in our world can be quite short notice, we have enough to be better knowledge. if that's the right term, to be able to react to that really efficiently and hopefully to a good standard. current client leads are born out of that relationship. But I think more about the want to understand what's relevant and current. Because that shows that putting effort in as well, course. So that's the current client lead. Predominant method with things like, quality check-ins. have we had our meeting in the last quarter to see whether the last video hit? So there'll be like a general update stuff, but then I'll be slightly more defined things around, did that work? How can we improve that? Did all the stakeholders have, there's some very key questions that we go through on those are slightly more formal review calls. But I do think a balance of both is really important from my perspective we'll see decorative one for what it is. You're trying to improve quality, you're trying to stay front of mind, and you're trying to sort of show you good, get that. But the other one is that forced general curiosity, which lots of people don't give or And that is probably, for me, in what we do, one of the big points of difference for how we, in very inverted commas, market or sell. that's in client-based stuff. The new client predominantly now it'll be through a website, it will be referrals, so people that we've already wrote. work for, or people have seen stuff through LinkedIn and then refer us on, know, good, personal contacts. never succeeded on old contract sales route yet, I have to say that's always been a fail. However a new thing has popped in which I don't know whether it's some interesting for people listening but it's the use of AI to then actually, can you make an AI sales agent? Like, you, is that possible? Cause I was recently approached by a company saying that they could do this now. we're not going to go with that but you know what it's challenged my thinking around it. challenge my thinking around that function. we know, we kind of know what when we think about it, think back to those email campaigns, email marketing campaigns back, know, cast our minds back to like MailChimp and the first iterations of MailChimp and what that promise was. And what promise often failed to deliver. And, and it's of reinvigorating some of those original Web2O promises. a very different set of tools under the hood. And going, okay, well, what does that mean for sales? And it could mean lots of things, but again, because we're so bleeding edge with all this stuff, and again, it's part of our function to try our best to be bleeding edge. it's really hard, isn't it, to kind of judge whether that's going to be a success or not, also work out the level of investment required to either that success or not. Granger Forson: Yeah, exciting, really interesting future. Yeah. fantastic share that you've just given to us and some really interesting thoughts. let's move on to Two now, the journey, the growth of your business. So, ⁓ over the past years, what have been the highs and the of ⁓ the creating Bax Media. Craig Hellen: It works not yet. Very, very, very interesting. But ⁓ one high, which is the Stonehenge high. That's a personal one. I think there are, there's a lot of highs. but then ⁓ depends what you're, you're like motivated by, right? Like I'm motivated by, different things. I'm bit of a, bit of a butterfly. so I will go ⁓ be really super motivated, in one, in one part, and then get a spike of something that happens, which is really interesting. Granger Forson: Yeah. Fantastic, looking back, a number of moments in the business life, but what ⁓ decision do you think changed the trajectory of the business? Craig Hellen: Well, so when you start a business, have your, certainly when you start, I think when you start a business, you're young, maybe, maybe that's the right context. Cause I started when I was 22. You have your goal set by what your environment demands And then you go, I want that, I think I can do that. it lights some sort of fire in ⁓ that belly. So you can do that, you try and do it, you try and do and then over time, your goal shifts. and that then changes. So my goal originally was to be this huge company, media man, mogul, know, elite. And then as time goes on, realize it doesn't actually make you happy, my goal for delivering a great product hasn't changed. But how big... the scale of what we need to be to deliver that great product has changed. and that realization of that change of going actually know what what actually I want to do is this because then you realize that all of your other decisions up to that point haven't been lining up whatsoever because your motivation is just not been there Granger Forson: But you found own why in your own story. So you've recruited people over the years, people have come and gone. You've got a great team around you at the moment. What have you learned about growing people that maybe you'd wish you'd learned earlier? Craig Hellen: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, quite. communication probably. So yeah I've never managed. I say I never been managed. I had a paper round ⁓ and I worked a fella at mill in my hometown Dursley. Yeah that was a tough job ⁓ halfway through university but I've been managed. So the growing of people, it's something, my God, I still have to hard at now. Like the growing of people is giving them the right communication to be to understand what their goals as well, along with your goals and all that sort of stuff. But the growing of people through that is my communication is probably the bit I have to work the hardest at and giving them, giving really clear goals what we're trying to do. Because if you can't put it into words for them, completely disables and you. And so you have to do a little bit of ⁓ thinking about that to that clear as well and giving that the right time. then they can grow with that is of biggest learnings, I think, certainly over last three or four years. Yeah, without that I the wheels were much falling off before that happened. Once we've got that down and obviously the communication continued to out. tiller seems to be a little bit more steady. ⁓ yeah, it's communication for me. Granger Forson: I'll end. Fantastic, thank you for that honest sharing. do you do now to keep the business focusing on doing the right things when it gets really busy? How do you keep the business healthy in those hard, too much to do times? ⁓ Craig Hellen: Yeah, so it kind of goes into the that we've got to talk about as well. In ⁓ my because of nature of how I am as a person, having the yin your yang is a good one. So yes, you can have critical numbers which are incredibly important and ⁓ In ⁓ my world, because of nature of I am as a person, having the yin to your yang a good So yes, you can have critical numbers which are incredibly important knowing the numbers is obviously important and going, okay, was this good? But actually having someone who keeps you to those numbers as well, frankly. having ⁓ process around that process around what's great to do what's a good thing to improve, how can we make a system around that improvement? How can we... knowing the numbers is obviously important and going, okay, was this good? But actually having someone who keeps you to those numbers as well, frankly. yeah, ⁓ having ⁓ process around numbers, that process around what's to do differently, what's a good thing to improve, how can we make a system around that improvement? How can we... give the staff the tools or the freedom to improve themselves, we can embrace culture of that, a cultural shift to that, but I think having the people that balance your... give the staff the tools or the freedom to improve themselves, we can embrace culture of that, a cultural shift to that, which is something that we've been talking about a lot. All of those parts come into, but having ⁓ people often to the system and go to the thing around the system, but I think having the people that balance your... other brilliant bits because we're all brilliant in different ways in order for a business to be ⁓ successful you need to be brilliant in a lot of ways. other brilliant bits because we're all brilliant in different ways in order for a business to be ⁓ successful you need to be brilliant in a lot of ways. Granger Forson: I love that. Your yin to your yang, that other person around you to create that balance in business. Fantastic. I love that. let's move on to Act 3 now. So we've mentioned it a few times, the hurdle. So what hurdle have we decided to talk through in this section? Craig Hellen: Yeah. So as we all know, are mid, what's word? We're in a swell of AI noise. depending on where been on this as a business person yourselves, the amount of effort to keep current, to understand what's relevant, and worth actually looking at seriously versus the ⁓ to recognize value ⁓ in current revenue streams and still keep that going. It's kind of like an investment piece, right? That's all I see it as investment. It's how much time do I need to put into this bit to make sure that we're OK that it's wrong? Granger Forson: Yeah, yeah, it's that best of future ⁓ the future while balancing the commercials of driving the day job. Yes. OK. ⁓ Craig Hellen: But it's more than that now, if I may, because it's in every vertical. Because when you've had these shifts in the past, the new technologies come on and you've had a very clear focus. A new thing has happened here. There might be a few new things that have happened in different places that relate to your business. The tricky bit now, which is the step change, it's just a ridiculous amplification because it's changes in Granger Forson: Hmm. Okay. Craig Hellen: every vertical, in every aspect of the business that can change or improve or benefit or not from the change. Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Let's start with where we are today, the sort of starting condition. Okay, so today, if we're thinking about investment, we invest time and money, don't we? Those are the two aspects that we've got. So if we're thinking about starting conditions today, what's the balance do you have today in time and investment for the day job, which brings in the rear-carre revenue versus the new, exciting new stuff that we could do tomorrow? How do you manage that today? Craig Hellen: ⁓ well, I put myself as a time block a week. put myself in rough 30 % and, try my best to stick to that. Look at my day. I generally do it on a day basis, rather than a week basis. Cause I think that week basis becomes incredibly hard to manage. but. On a day basis, I look at my day and go, right, how much time am I spending talking to you? So this would I'd be blocking out as a next. And then go, OK, so the 70 % of the now is have I done that client com? Have I looked at that strategy document for that client? Have I done that part of the motion graphics that only I can do because I've got that particular skill set, I need to help the team out for that. Whatever that's, that's the now. So I'm. bluntly doing 70 30. Granger Forson: Okay and that's 30 percent. Is that just you or does your team get involved in any of future thinking as well? Craig Hellen: Good question. No, I know, absolutely they get involved. Absolutely. Again, it depends on what level and what that future thinking is. So from a strategic point of view around this AI stuff, there's a lot of strategic thought first. So then you're going where you need lots of strategic thought support. Then it's like action very beyond that. who you need at which point in that. Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Craig Hellen: know who and when but absolutely the team are involved in the next. Granger Forson: Yeah. And, 30 % actually seems a really high level, that's amazing. I've worked a lot of businesses, I've worked in R &D, and if we were given 10%, that was amazing. So, so 30 % is a really good set of time. Yeah. Craig Hellen: That's right now. But that's right now. That's gone up. And that's my point. Is that right? Because think it used to be 10. Now I think it's 30. Granger Forson: Yeah. Yes, but if we're thinking about that 30 % though, which is fantastic time wise, what's your selection process? Because within that 30%, there's so many new technologies, so many different new AI structures, so many different opportunities. What's your selection process that then decides what you're going to be focusing on? Craig Hellen: Well, therein lies the question. I wish I had one. no, so, but broadly you look back to the client value. I look at and also sustaining your value to the client, let's be honest. But that's a little bit of a fear response as well. Granger Forson: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if we think about that 30 % though and the structure that you're doing to decide, How would you go about then today if something new pops up on the AI arena? We talked about AI selling earlier on, you mentioned that, this idea that we could possibly build an AI coach, something new comes along. What's your mechanism actually then deciding ⁓ you would look at it, whether you wouldn't, et cetera? Do you actually have a method for thinking around that? Okay. Craig Hellen: No, no, no, no method. No method. Granger Forson: Okay, so maybe that's one of the things then to start to think about is what's your selection criteria around new ideas and new opportunities that are coming along. let's think around, maybe a root cause of that ⁓ Why don't you a selection process? Craig Hellen: Well, I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of clarity over importance generally. So you've got small business owners and directors or whatever, they have a constant noise of everything. So I think you can prioritize very easily within hard numbers. whatever the metrics behind, behind either cash or new clients or whatever the numbers around that. And that's very easy to prioritize. Um, cause you've either got a high number or a low number. So an action or an, or a non action at the end of that. Um, but where, uh, the priorities are. Granger Forson: Yep. Yep. Craig Hellen: less oblique. I think that's where the problem comes around prioritization. ⁓ So that's where probably I think everybody probably struggles out. So it's going that, well, what is that priority versus that new thing I've seen? So the priority is, I need to be, we need to be more innovative. So that's a really amorphous, rubbish priority. ⁓ Horrible. Granger Forson: Absolutely, yes. Yes. statement yes it's not it's just yeah yeah Craig Hellen: It's like someone to me, saying to me, can you make this video more impactful? It's like, great guys, come on, let's work through this a bit. So the ⁓ enormity of the change or the potential change, working one those back, because if you look at that thing about being more innovative, right? Okay, so what makes innovation? You've got... You've got people, you've got skills, you've got technology, you've got market climate, you've got value, you've got all these things. And you have to work more back to say, what is innovation for you? So that takes time to do that. then you've got another one here, and then you've got another one here, and then you've got another one here, here, here, here, here. So that's the problem is because you kind of know the value ⁓ the potential for each one of those things. It's just there's so many. Granger Forson: See you. So. Let's it back into the context. people think that ⁓ R &D those aha moments. I've now the light bulb. What we forget is 10,000 iterations that takes place before. So where do those iterations come from? Those come from those small continuous improvements in your current processes. And the big ahas come from those moments. So by continuously on small iterative changes, Craig Hellen: Yeah. Granger Forson: within the processes, making them more productive, making them higher quality, them, reducing them. I love the Elon Musk approach of, know, ⁓ part is the best part of all. That of thinking, that iterative approach. Through that, ⁓ you those aha moments when you go, ⁓ this could be very different. ⁓ Because you're now also doing is because you're still looking externally at looking at those new opportunities, because you're in on the current processes, you start to see how current processes be then either replaced or dramatically improved ⁓ those innovative ideas that you see in the marketplace. How that resonate with you? ⁓ Craig Hellen: Yeah, it it I don't know if it's like seeing the same question because you can take that approach with any one of these things I get that and we do that we iteratively improve and there's some great examples that we're all really proud of and I get the compound interest model with that. the more you do it the net benefit is going up all the time the more you do it. But it's the big stuff. when you're, you said it's like, it's not the, you know that there is a big change available to you, whereas it was potentially easier to do big changes now, either through a big new tool using tool in a bigger way than you've ever been able to change before. ⁓ Granger Forson: Yes, absolutely. Craig Hellen: So that's the take, it's not using the tool, it's not using it in small little ways. It's going, ⁓ my God, there is a big thing here. Granger Forson: Absolutely and the triangle of improvement. Yeah, at the bottom is those iterative small continuous improvements that we're doing to our current processes, which let's agree 90 % of businesses never do. What they're always looking for is that top 3 % those big massive changes that's going to cost a lot of time and resource and energy. But actually those are found from all of the work that I've done in R &D over the years. Those big aha moments come from all those small iterative processes by watching Craig Hellen: Okay. Granger Forson: on the outside. So we have the idea of I make small changes first, I'm building all these small changes and then something comes along and go wow that could help me here. Or actually I go looking for the next level up which is where I need to spend some money and some time of activity. And then every now and then that real wow now I really understand what I'm looking for is a significant change here what's in the marketplace. Or because you've got a natural tendency to look out into the marketplace looking at things you start to make those connections. Craig Hellen: I okay? Granger Forson: with all those small changes and say we can make a 50%, 100%, a 2000 % change in our current process by doing this new thing. So you're relating big ideas in the marketplace, new ideas to actually how it helps your business rather than that trying to bring everything in at once and trying to make lots of big change. Craig Hellen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because obviously, we very much subscribe to incremental continuous improvement. Yeah. That's ⁓ that's absolutely. And we a lot to that. So from your perspective, your ⁓ eyes and ears senses should be tweaked. but with the, using the continuous small improvements in inverted commas to help guide where your focus for the big, big wins should be or could be. Granger Forson: Yes, absolutely. Yes, because you're in the process and you're constantly improving it, you're constantly looking for those changes, you're making that. When those are hard moments, me, engineering constantly improving the machine process, we're optimizing it, we're making it better, we're improving the productivity of the machine, we're improving the uptime of the machine. ⁓ You to a show ⁓ and you see a machine and you go, now that could take us to whole new level ⁓ of within that machine. It could halve everything we do, it could quadruple the output and we don't see that machine because it looks really good and we love all the glossy brochures. We see that machine as the next opportunity to actually take our current processes to a whole new level because we're thinking about our current processes all the time. Craig Hellen: And so do you think if I was, if that team was not making those continuous improvements before they saw the machine, they'd be less likely to appreciate the value of the machine. Granger Forson: Absolutely, yes. Yes. from my background, I talk about the Guinness beer tap. also put the Guinness beer tap into production and I wanted to buy a back then, you know, we're talking about 1991, 92, I wanted to buy a three quarters of a million pound machining center to do it all. And my boss said, no, you've got one hundred and fifty thousand pounds plus fifty thousand pounds for tooling. Am I going to do that? I ended up buying some very old machines, getting them refurbished, getting all the tooling done and we built a cell that one person could walk around and could do the same production level of that machine. Now that machine could have done everything, but we would have spent three quarters of a million pounds and we only spent 200,000 maximum. I think we only spent about 180 the end of the total cost. ⁓ you still need one person to run it, but it was because we were iterating the small improvements with the process that we actually saw what we could really do. ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ number of years later, ⁓ very low cost, innovative machine came out Craig Hellen: Yeah. Granger Forson: I wasn't in that company anymore. when I saw that, went, wow, we could have done that for about £400,000. And technically, we wouldn't have even needed an operator. You need someone to load and unload, but we'd only needed to do that every couple of times a day. So I saw that innovation for what it would have done in that situation because we've been constantly improving that process. So that's a way of thinking about how you would do that. Craig Hellen: Okay. Granger Forson: Okay, well, there's some thoughts for you. So what do you think would be your next first experiment you do from this conversation? Craig Hellen: Thank don't know. I honestly don't know Granger because it's sort of it's not really answered the question I guess it's given me a method to understand what to look was kind of for. It's like whether I'll give you an example. Maybe that's how more helpful we have someone who's able to code with AI. And we've got a system over here which is really important to fix. And we've got a system over here which is really important to fix. And we've got another 12 of those. And we know that each one of them have a level of importance to fix or the level of the value at the end of the fix is high enough to warrant us looking at it carefully. Is that just back down to a SWOT? Is that just back down to kind of go which one is the priority? Because it's that is available. Granger Forson: Mm-hmm. so now talking about how do you prioritize ⁓ where spend your time ⁓ rather ⁓ looking ⁓ how pick what of opportunities are coming through. yes, you could just a analysis, ⁓ but also... ⁓ Craig Hellen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Granger Forson: In each one of those processes, skill set to do that is stuck with one person. ⁓ is it stuck with one person? ⁓ Craig Hellen: that's a point. ⁓ Granger Forson: Because actually what we want is we want all of our team to have the capability to think and to grow and to fix processes and to develop their own processes and take the whole business forwards rather than monoliths of individuals. used to call them in the software development world monoliths. set of code that can only be managed by a single person. So maybe what you've got is you've because you've only got one person you're stuck about thinking about prioritizing ⁓ rather actually how would you use ⁓ Craig Hellen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's that's a very good thought. Granger Forson: How could you use AI liberate the skill set within the people to create solutions that they need within within processes, rather just thinking of it as I've only got one person that can do it. Craig Hellen: it's good. That's a really good one because that really resonates with me. And the reason it does ⁓ that we had a very similar thing happen internally, not to do with not to a building at all really, but of a thing. So again, like kind of ultra democratization, isn't it? But ⁓ and so we had a thing where someone wanted to do something to delight a client. They went. Granger Forson: Yeah. Craig Hellen: to a resource that we have internally and wanted the thing. And the thing wasn't delivered to a level that they were happy with. So they then had to kind of really battle with that and not be able to get to that end point into a level that they were satisfied with. So then I was like, well, let's sit you down. Let's talk about how we can make that easier for to get to that level. And a lot of that was sharing of information and what trying to do and maybe spending a bit of time showing some other routes and methods. But that's education. So maybe there's a piece in education around that, around the tool sets not even the direct around the tool sets, but these are the sorts of things we should be looking at to allow us to learn as things change. Granger Forson: Absolutely. Craig Hellen: That's probably a really good learning. Really good. Granger Forson: ⁓ what really AI is doing for us. ⁓ Craig Hellen: Hmm. Granger Forson: tool ⁓ I call it a lean cave. ⁓ in the physical world, in lean when you're trying to make improvements the two-second lean methodology, you have the lean cave, which is that place where we can go to find the tools, the wood, the nails, the bits of plastic that we can make a solution to try in our workplace. As as that try, Craig Hellen: Yeah. Granger Forson: doesn't affect quality and doesn't affect health and safety have a go absolutely but I've always I've always been searching for those tool sets that same type of tool sets in the non-manufacturing IT I sit in front of my computer all day world ⁓ of this whatever I do and those are starting to appear you you introduced me to monday.com and that ability to ⁓ create type of process and flow and experiment without creating Craig Hellen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Granger Forson: massive change and having to have lots of people involved in it. and I think that's what AI is now starting to do, is giving us that tool set that I can give to my people to go and experiment, go and learn, go and find out things because they can do it so much faster than they ever used to be able to do. So we're speeding up that learning and that experimenter and the temptation stage and especially now with AI generated software type activities as well as long as we keep it controlled and managed absolutely so we don't break the Craig Hellen: See you Granger Forson: system that's our role as the leader to make sure that's in place but then let's give them the tool sets let's get them going let's have five people making changes rather than one person making a change yes it may take us a bit of time a few months to get there but what a fantastic way we can really use AI to leverage the creativity in humans rather than everyone keeps talking about replacing creativity in humans Craig Hellen: True. That's good. That's good. No, think it's, I think a lot of it is the sharing of the information in the right way and still having that direction of, what we need to achieve. and being really clear with that from a communications point of view, but that sharing the information and the immediacy of that, like something you said your improvements channel, you know, inside the business and talking about it from the GEMBA docs and all that sort of side of things. culture share improvement and share resource, I've just found a new thing. Like indeed, we're just redoing our Monday morning meeting around having some really discrete sharing points on some which very directed and some of which are really not directed at all, have be in the right context of things better but really not directed. And I that's a cultural thing now that we're coming to it, which is definitely something that we're working on. But yeah, we're not there yet, clearly. Granger Forson: we ever? always on that journey. We're always on that journey. based on that further conversation, anything sparked to mind, what would you do as an experiment next? ⁓ Craig Hellen: So I think an experiment next is think we're going to let the team run a little bit with, from a cultural point of view. Cause again, it's one of those, how many things do you add in before you start really upsetting or miss or being misaligned with what you're trying to be understood for? Like, ⁓ am asking you to be an AI agent, ⁓ AI here today? Am I asking you to be a process agent here today? Yeah, whatever those things are, I we're going be a bit careful about overload. but there's, there is definitely one on how can we enable the team to be better at ⁓ the tool new tool set, giving them access in the right way, which is something that would definitely on the agenda already, to then enable them to help. rather than basically maybe it feel like it's all on my shoulders because at the moment I'm the only the one that's had the time to learn about that. Granger Forson: Yeah. ⁓ Interesting to see what comes up next. So let's move to our wrap up and close. So did you hear yourself say today that maybe surprised you? Craig Hellen: Oh, honestly is how, how passionate I got about that one time when I went to the Stonehenge. every time I say it, it still gets me jazzed. every now and again, you know, we get very caught up in systems and very caught up in, in continuous improvement. And that's all really relevant and, and good, good stuff. But actually what's driving you there is the want to do more things like that. Granger Forson: Thank you. Finally, Craig, how can people get a hold of you if they want to share more of your journey? Craig Hellen: goodness. just ⁓ follow me on probably LinkedIn is the place we see most of my stuff ⁓ So yeah, just just I think I'm under very common on LinkedIn, you'll find me there. or banks is our is our But yeah, LinkedIn probably the easiest place to catch up with Granger Forson: Awesome. Well, Craig, thank you so much for being so open and honest today. I know our listeners will get a whole lot from this. It's been a fantastic conversation. Thank you. Craig Hellen: I was. No problem at all. Thanks, Craninger. I appreciate the time.