Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / International Overdose Awareness Day | Remembering the Lost, Fighting for the Living | Episode 37
Transcript
- Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Before we begin, today's episode includes a personal conversation about substance use and overdose. Please take care of yourself while listening. On July 17th, 2020, an Uber driver thought he was taking a passenger home. Instead, that driver became part of the reason the passenger made it home alive. Marc Rogala overdosed during that ride. The driver recognized that something was wrong and called 911. Narcan was used and Marc survived. But that was not Mark's first overdose. Three of his overdoses resulted in hospitalization. There were others that no one ever found out about. Today, Marc is not a statistic. He is my friend and a business partner and a person in recovery and someone who uses his life to help other people believe. that recovery is still possible. He is sitting here on this podcast with me, but he is no longer the same man that was inside that Uber that night. August 31st is International Overdose Awareness Day. It is a day to remember the people that we have lost, stand beside the people struggling, and recognize the families and friends whose lives are changed by overdoses too. Today, we are talking about what this day means when you are someone who almost did not live to see it. Welcome back to Rebuild and Fulfill, the podcast about real struggles, real transformation, and what it takes to build a feels worth living. I'm Kelsey Dunbar, joined today by my cohost and Suffer to Tougher co-founder, Marc Rogala. Marc, we've talked openly about addiction and recovery before, but today is different. This conversation is centered on the times you came close to losing your life. What those experiences mean to you now. and the people who live through them alongside of you. International Overdose Awareness Day asks us to remember the people we lost and take action to prevent more deaths. For many people, that makes August 31st an important day on the calendar. For you, it's connected to something you've actually lived through. When you hear the words overdose awareness day, what comes up for you personally? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): mean, for me personally, it's bittersweet. For the simple reason, I'm obviously talking to you on this podcast today, when I probably should have been dead many times over. But the other thing is too, is I know a lot of people that did not make it out of their addictions, you know, and I become reflective of the individuals that I came across in my lifetime, and unfortunately, I'm no longer here. It's sad. It really is because, I had conversations with those individuals pretty much on a regular basis for in the weeds of our addictions. And I know that in my heart, they were not bad people. They were just sick people, you know, and, we would talk openly about how the hell we're going to get out of this, what we're going to do to get out of this. And, you know, quite frankly, the vast majority of them, really pretty much all of them. to not get out of it. And I'm sitting here talking to you on this podcast. I think it's an important day. I think it's in a day of awareness, you know, that we remember those individuals, we remember loved ones that are no longer with us. We acknowledge the grief. I think that's very important. As we become reflective of their lives. I think it's an opportunity for us to reduce stigma. You know, people have this preconceived notion that somebody who is a drug addict is, you know, is a bad person. They're not bad people. They're just sick people. And I think that's very important for people to understand or listen to this podcast. And I think it's an opportunity to promote prevention. There's a lot of support groups out there there's overdose groups. There's groups for individuals that are grieving the loss of a relative that have passed away by overdose to get support. I mean, there's so many groups that are out there that I wasn't even aware of when I was in the weeds of my addiction. So there's a lot of resources out there for individuals to promote the prevention and then also encouraging action, you know, by state officials, government officials and things like that, you know, because even though the overdoses have come down a little bit over the last couple of years, I think the last stat that I heard is we lost 90,000 people or just under 90,000 people last year. So I mean, that's ridiculous. We still need to continue to do that to continue to work on prevention and encouraging action by our public officials. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. So as I mentioned in the opening, you had three overdoses that resulted in hospitalization but there were other overdoses that no one knew about. That's difficult to comprehend because it means there were moments when your life was in danger and no one was even around or knew that you needed help. So what do you remember about those hidden overdoses and what does it tell us about how much of addiction can happen in silence? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, as far as remembering those overdoses, I don't. I mean, my eyes might have been open and I might've been having conversations with people, but I mean, I was in blackout, Kelsey. I'm not gonna lie to you. Okay, I mean, I'm not gonna sugar coat this. I don't remember a damn thing, but what I do remember is the morning after and waking up and being bruised up because my body was hitting different types of furniture. Or in some instances, you know, I would be like hitting myself to probably try to prevent myself to not fall asleep because my body was reacting, knowing that I was overly intoxicated. Just rooms being disheveled, furniture knocked over, Bottles of water spilt or alcohol spilt, whatever it might be. you know, just complete chaos. And you you try to think back about like what happened or what time you fell asleep or passed out or whatever it might be. And you have no recollection, man. You really don't. You're in complete blackout. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): So with that realization at that point, were you afraid of dying or had the addiction become so powerful that even death no longer felt like enough to make you stop? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I had no fear of dying. I really thought that I was going to die just to keep it real here. In some instances, I wanted to die because the sickness was just so great. My words don't give it justice. When you become physically addicted to a substance like opiates and your body needs it just to get through a day, it's like being trapped in a prison. You you just want to feel normal. I mean, at the end, wasn't to get high. wasn't to get a buzz or anything like that. I mean, it literally was to get through the day not being sick. And at the end, I mean, I was taking very high quantities of pills and then eventually fentanyl patches because I needed those quantities just to not be sick. The issue is, you know, your body starts metabolizing it and you start seeing the side effects of, you know, sweating profusely and kind of some herky-jerky motions. And, and I know I scared the shit out of a lot of people that were around me, whether it was coworkers or my kids when they were around, or certainly my parents and my sister. But you just don't see any way out of it. You really don't, you know, and you got people dying around you too. So it's like, okay, this is gonna be my destiny. When I leave this earth, I'm gonna leave this earth with this drug in my body. And at that particular point, it was a feeling of hopelessness, a lot of shame, a lot of guilt, a lot of asking, how did this happen? Why did this happen? And honestly... I really lost my faith in my higher power at that particular time. lost faith in God because my thought process was is, you know, if there's a God, why is this happening to me? I know deep down inside, I'm a good person. I care about people. wanted to better spouse, parent, son, brother, but I was just so friggin' sick that I just did not see any way out of it, Kelsey. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. And, and I'm, sure that so many people feel that way and it's, it's so sad to think about. So I want to bring us back to that night in question with the Uber driver. And, so July 17th, 2020, and that was the date of your last overdose. You were being driven home by the Uber driver when things went terribly wrong, the driver called 911. Narcan was administered and you survived. So tell us what you know about what happened that night and what you remember when you regained consciousness. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, I don't remember the right home. And I don't remember getting into my parents' house. I remember the day, and I can tell you specifically that that's the day of my grandfather's birthday. I remember waking up that morning and feeling emotional because it was his birthday. He passed away back in 1998. And... I consider him a key male mentor in my life and I really felt that I was letting him down with the life that I was living. And I ubered to a bar, drank all day, got some drugs, did drugs all day and ubered home. I don't remember anything about that ride. I don't think I was unconscious. I was overly intoxicated, I would probably, I would scare the heck out of people because I just wouldn't stop moving. And like I said, sometimes I would hit myself and maybe there was a point where I fell asleep in the vehicle, but he dropped me off at my parents' and the door flung open and I opened the door and I guess I left the door open. And I pretty much just laid on my parents kitchen floor and that was it. And I had made some phone calls. I know this because I talk to people. I don't remember any of this, okay? I had made some phone calls to individuals on that Uber ride. And I guess they couldn't understand a word that I was saying. And one of them individuals reached out to my sister. And my sister tried contacting my parents saying, you know, he's on his way home and he's not in good shape, which was normal back then. But my parents weren't home. So my sister actually got in the vehicle and started driving to my parents' house. And when she got to my parents' house, the door was open. She found me on the on the kitchen floor. How she described it as was flopping around like a fish out of water. And I really wasn't making any sense. She called my mom. There was Narcan in the house because this was not my first overdose. So my mom was trying to describe my sister where the Narcan was and how to administer it. And as she's on the phone with my mom, first responders came in. And at the time she did not understand how the first responders got there because she didn't call 911 because honestly, I don't think she realized there was an overdose. It was a potentially fatal situation. But they did right away. I believe it was, it was a police officer and that was the first one on the scene before the paramedics. And he had Narcan me a couple of times. The paramedics eventually got there and they put me on a stretcher and they wheeled me out and they took me to a local hospital. And it was there. when I woke up in intensive care where it was explained to me what had happened. And I was in intensive care for a few days, two, three days. I can't remember exactly how many days. I was on suicide watch. They had security guards outside my door. They did classify that overdose as a suicide attempt because they said I had suicidal ideologies because the amount of drugs and alcohol found in my system. And they also said that, you I had some some abnormal kidney functions and liver functions and they had to get those at an even keel. But once they get to an even keel, they were gonna send me down to the psychiatric unit because my mom signed a form saying that I needed that care at that particular time because I was not in the position to make my own medical decision. I do know that it was a police officer that administered the Narcan and I do know that the police officer was there before the paramedics only because about a year later. I actually met that police officer. He actually pulled me over on Roosevelt Road in Glen Ellyn for being on my phone. And we had a conversation in the parking lot and he recognized my name and recognized the address. And that was about a year sober at that time. I think I was three days from my one year of sobriety and had a great conversation. I was able to hug him and he kind of explained some of the details of that night. But I did not know that the police officer was the first one on the scene that applied the Narcan until he had shared that information with me almost a year later. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, that's that's a great part of the story too. I mean, that's why we say that we stopped believing in coincidences a long time ago, I mean, what are the odds that you're going to get stopped by that police officer for such a random reason and to be able to have that moment with him and to thank him? It's it's surreal, right? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): It's, there's no other way to explain it except the man above. I mean, that's just the way I look at it. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): So when you think about that Uber driver today, someone who could have panicked or looked away, his job is done, he dropped you off or just assumed you were asleep, drunk, you know, whatever. What does that person's decision to act mean to you today? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, I think it's fair to say by him calling 911 and the first responders to get there as quick as they did, well, my sister was scrambling. He probably saved my life. And I'm sure he was scared of probably his safety. I'm sure he probably couldn't wait for the ride to get over with because my behavior was probably bizarre in the backseat. But for him to have that wherewithal to care about another human being and care about their safety and make that phone call really means the world to me because I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you and we wouldn't be doing the work in the community that we're doing right now. So in a roundabout way by him making that phone call, not only did he save my life, but I like to think that he saved many lives because I know we're doing good work in the community. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): 100%. From the outside, people may think that nearly dying should be the moment that makes someone stop forever, but addiction isn't that simple. You survive that more than once and even being revived with Narcan did not immediately remove the addiction or everything underneath it. Why is surviving an overdose not always enough to make someone stop using? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): That's the deep question because the truth be told is one of the days that I overdosed, I overdosed twice on the same day. So, I mean, I literally came home or my mom picked me up from the hospital and I found my stash of pills at that particular time. And my mom was making dinner and I was so excited that When the paramedics did the sweep of the house, they didn't find my stash. What did I do? I pop some more. Because when they narc on you and they get all that poison out of your system, guess what? You feel like shit. You're going through withdrawals. You're nauseous. You got diarrhea. You feel like your body's gone 12 rounds. And it's like, okay, now I'm home. And now I got to figure out how the hell I'm going to get through the night, how the hell I'm going to get through tomorrow without my drug of choice. And honestly, my thought process was start sending some text and trying to get more pills, you know, or more patches or whatever. Because the sickness scares the hell out of you. My words don't do it justice. It like literally is like the flu times 100. It's absolutely pure hell on earth. I mean, I truly believe that. Your brain is hijacked. That's all that you're thinking about is using your brain just once. It's quote unquote medication. It wants its dopamine. You're dealing with depression. You're dealing with anxiety, knowing that the withdrawals are coming or that you're ready and withdraw. You don't know how to process that. because you haven't been in treatment or didn't take your treatment serious enough. And all that you want to do is just not be sick and get through a day not being sick. Like I said before, it's not chasing the high, it's not chasing the buzz or anything like that. It's just to not be sick. And once you're at that point where your body is physically addicted, and I guess mentally addicted too, because of the brain and the cravings and the urges and so forth, It's hard to get out of man I mean, it really is. hard to get. It's a process. And I did not know how to do it. I really didn't. I didn't know how to get out of the hell. I mean, I've said this often before on this podcast, and I do say this in the hospitals, well, nobody wants to get out of the addiction worse than a person who's addicted themselves. I mean, I know that for a fact because in recovery, I've had so many conversations with people, but also in my using days. talking to people that were heavily addicted to substances, not even just opiates, but just other substances or alcohol as well. And we shared the same sentiments. I mean, they want out, they want out bad. They just don't know how to get out of the hell that they're in. And you know, and it's hard, man. You know, I have no other way to put it. I mean, it's the hardest thing that I've ever done in my life is to get sober off that and get my mental health in check. It's a process and it's a process that I got to work on every single day. And that's scary to a lot of people. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, I mean, honestly, that that even feeds the stigma is the idea that people who are addicted are selfish, that they don't care about anyone around them, that they just want to do what they want to do. Like you said, they're chasing that high or chasing that escape rather than they're sick and they need treatment. And that's one of the things that we're doing, trying to end the stigma around all of mental health addiction being part of it. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, I mean, the selfish part. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I was taking money away from my family to supply my habit. You know, I was taking time away from my family, trying to go pick this stuff up and so forth. So I get that. I mean, at the end of the day, there is some selfishness there, but why was I doing that? And I think this is important for the people to understand. I just couldn't, I felt at that time, I couldn't just check myself in. have responsibilities, man. I had to pay the friggin' mortgage. My kids had extracurricular activities. Bills I had to pay. Even when I was at my parents' house, I had a divorce pending. I had legal bills mounting up. You know, so it's like you just want to feel normal to be able to go to work or have a normal day and try to help somebody around the house or whatever it might be. Because if you don't have that shit in your body, you literally... are laying on the couch or laying in the bed and run into the bathroom. And you can't function. Now, looking back, should I have done things differently? Yeah. But that's an education that I got through the process, and that's what I explain to people when we do the work in the community. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. I mean, when I think of something that you had mentioned earlier, if you were completely in a selfish mode, you probably would not have taken an Uber to the bar. You would have drove to the bar. You would have been like, Hey, I'm to get rocked. And I don't care if somebody gets in my way on the way there on the way back. I don't care. You cared enough to call an Uber. You cared enough to take an Uber home. You knew that you were going to be in no condition to drive. And that would put other people's lives in danger. You didn't do that. So for those people, like I said, that think that addiction is extremely selfish, no, it's a sickness. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): It's a brain disease. mean, that's really when the American Medical Association puts it as a brain disease. And what I've been using is I've been using the example of like Alzheimer's, you know, unfortunately, when people get older, and they pass, they eventually pass away from Alzheimer's, you know, it's a shell of the individual that's laying in that bed. And sometimes they don't recognize family members. And then sometimes they say things to family members that are very derogatory and swearing at them and you know, very demeaning and so forth. And the family members kind of sometimes take it personal because it's their mom or their dad that's saying this stuff to them. But, know, as I remind people, it's the disease that's talking. It's not the individual. That individual is still there in that shell of the body. It's just a disease taking over. And that's the best example for addiction because I know a lot of people that are in recovery. but I also know a lot of people that are no longer with us. And some of those individuals are the nicest, most empathetic people that you can even imagine. And they were in their addictions. I mean, I had people literally crying, telling me, Marc, you need to stop. Marc, you need to slow down. Marc, you need to get help. And they were in their addictions as well. And in some instances, they're no longer here. So I mean, they were caring even when they were battling their own demons. And those are the types of individuals there are. And that's what I want to remind people is that, yeah, there's some actions that are taken and some words that are spoken that aren't good, but that's the disease that's speaking or that's the disease that's encouraging their actions. And I think that's a important distinction for the audience to understand. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, and you just helped shed some light on something else that most people wouldn't understand. And that's the fact that the people that were there for you were struggling themselves, but they were there for you because they knew what that struggle was like, which is why so many people come to you because of your lived life experience and how much you're able to help people because you can say, I was there. I know what it's like. I know what you're feeling. And, obviously you're still working on your own recovery. But it's important for people to know that sometimes the best people that you can talk to about this are people that you know, understand. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): And man, I'll take it even one step further. The people that I would get my pills and my fentanyl patches from, there were times near the end where they were literally, they didn't want to give them to me or they were literally crying handing them to me because I would be arguing with them. And at that particular point, I had a lot of connections and I'm like, listen, this is again, the disease talking. You need the money, you know, you're a single parent. You know, if I don't get it from you, I could just make another phone call and get it from down the street. So just take the frigging money, give me my shit and let me just frigging go. And they're like literally crying while they're handing me the patches. So you could say what you want about those individuals, but at the same time, I mean, they even cared at that particular time. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): I mean, and no one hears those kinds of stories, right? so kind of moving forward, what eventually began to change that the overdoses themselves could not change? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): As I said, I wanted to get out of it. And at the end, I was really trying to educate myself. But again, I live my life like an oxymoron. I mean, I really did. I mean, I'd be ripped in my bedroom at my parents' house and I'd be watching videos all night about recovery, recovery stories, stories of hope and inspiration, diet, I mean, all that stuff. But nothing was sticking. And again, That last overdose, to be perfectly honest with you, I said earlier, my mom signed the form. I didn't want to go into psychiatric care. I was fighting security guards, as I said before. I eventually went down there really with the mentality. Okay, I'm going to go to all the groups, get out in a couple of days, go home, do more drugs and die. And on the third day I met a gentleman. who was speaking on behalf of NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. And he was a heroin addict in recovery. And in 45 minutes, he changed my life. I mean, I heard his story about his childhood and some of the stuff that he dealt with in his life, completely chaotic. I heard the story about his addictions. In my opinion, it probably was worse than mine because he had a 17 year run. Mine is a much smaller, much smaller timeframe. He had... I don't know how many visits to treatment, but when I saw him, he just did not look like in my eyes at that particular time, a drug addict or a heroin addict or a junkie, whatever word you want to use. And I hate that last word, but that's what people talk about on the street. I mean, the guy had it going on and I went from not wanting to go to treatment, go home, do more drugs and die. to literally in 45 minutes he convinced me to get the help that I needed. And he gave me some pointers and he encouraged me and gave me hope and inspiration that it can be done. Because at that particular time, everybody was dying around me. I mean, everybody was dying around me. I I've said this before on this podcast, as far as I know, there's only two people living. One guy doing time in Cook County jail and me talking to you today, everybody else is gone. So he was the only one that I knew that got out of it. I listened, went to treatment and actually started working the program the way it should have been actually worked all along because I was in treatment before. But when I saw that man, I'm like, shit, if this guy can do it, I can do it. So he just, he just had it going. I can't explain it. You know, I can't give an accurate description. I mean, I remember. I wish there was video of him actually giving this presentation in the hospital. There obviously isn't because of privacy. My jaw probably was dropped and my mouth was probably open hearing his story. It was so profound. you know, and that's again, when I got myself clean, I said to myself early on, I'm going to do what that man did. And he told me, do what I do, pay it forward. And I waited to get to about a year clean. And then I started speaking at the hospitals for that same organization, NAMI, because I knew it changed my life. And I know by me sharing my story, it might change somebody else's life. That Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, and- Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): was the critical moment, Kelsey, right there. And again, If I didn't overdose at that particular time and I didn't spend those two or three days in intensive care and go down to the psychiatric unit at the time I went down there, I would have never heard that gentleman's presentation and his story. So again, I mean, I'm going to give credit to the man above because sometimes I feel it was a shell game from above to get me to be sitting in this chair today. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. And, and I'm glad that you brought that up because I was going to, if you didn't is the fact that much like that Uber driver where not only did he save your life, but he saved the lives of so many other people. Same thing with that gentleman that you listened to give that presentation that day, because it was that presentation that not only helped you decide that you were going to take the steps, you were going to go through the program, you were going to get clean, but how many other people you have helped. because of listening to that guy talk. So again, these people being put into your life where you're like, man, I can't ignore this. This is, this is my purpose. This is, you know, my higher power anointing me to say, this is what you're going to do with your life now. And how many people in reflection you think about that Uber driver having helped. And then the gentleman that you heard his presentation. And because of that, how many people you have been able to help. the story. really stops being so much about you and actually starts to be about all the people that get helped through you, which wouldn't have been possible without other people coming into your life at almost a random fashion, right? It's beautiful. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, I mean, again, you can call it luck, can call it irony, can call it divine intervention. I like to think it's divine intervention to be perfectly honest with you because there's just been so many weird things that have happened. Not only in my journey up until that last overdose, but also the journey that we're on today that it's just, it's been amazing. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, so you kind of touched on this before, but obviously an overdose happens to one body, but its impact spreads through an entire family and circle of friends. They may be the ones who find someone unconscious administer Narcan call 911 sit in a hospital waiting room. or live with the fear that the next phone call may bring the news they've been dreading but somewhat expecting? Looking back now, what do you understand about what your overdoses put the people who loved you through that you could not fully understand while you were using? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, I understand now I created trauma for them. I mean, no sister should be seeing their brother flapping around on a kitchen floor, right? You know, and I know I created trauma for my children at the end of my marriage and trauma for my ex-wife and I feel bad about that. And I wish that they would accept my amends, but I can't do anything about that except, you know, keep being a better person. You know, as far as the parents go, I mean, I put them through hell. I mean, I will give my dad credit and my mom credit. I mean, they did the best that they possibly can. I mean, my dad. There was an open meeting, an open AA meeting, and I preferred AA over NA. That was just my personal preference. And in Westmont, Illinois, in the Western suburbs of Chicago on Saturday mornings. And he would take me to those meetings. there were Saturdays where I didn't, I was up late on Friday night, didn't want to go. And he'd be coming in the bedroom and can't say he was dragging me out of bed, but he probably would have dragged me out of bed if I didn't actually get up. And we went there. And it did make me feel good and I met a lot of people and he learned, you know, through the process too. And I know that because sometimes it'd be sitting there eating dinner and he would mention something that was said in the meeting the previous Saturday. So he was taking in information as well. My mom, you know, she really didn't know like what to do to be perfectly honest with you. And, you know, there's one, there's one moment with my mom that I remember that I can't get out of my head. And that was her. on the kitchen floor mopping or cleaning it up because the night before was not a good night for me. And she was crying. And I remember her looking up at me and she looked at me and said, and I'll never forget this. I just pray to God that your life insurance has paid. So I know for a fact that she thought that was not going to end well. You know, I know that and I feel bad, but I also recognize the fact that I was sick. And I guess the best way that I can pay all those individuals back, including my children and my ex-wife, is to continue to be better, do the work when the community become the best version of myself. Because I can't change the past. I if I dwell on the past, and we've talked about this so many times on this podcast, it's going to bring me to a depressed state. I'll talk about this stuff, but I don't, I don't dwell on it. I do not dwell on it. That is not me. That is not the man that's talking to you, right now on this podcast, you know, but it's part of my story. You know, and I have to acknowledge the fact that it's a part of my story, but I know for a fact that I'm a much better human being all around, physically, mentally, spiritually, giving back to the community that I ever was in my life. And I just, I guess the greatest gift that I can give them because I can't take back the trauma that I, that I gave them. is continue to get better every single day. And that's how I live my life for myself and for the people around me that I care about the most, that I affected. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): 100%. That's all you can do. Can't change the past. All you can do is move forward and you have moved forward in such a big way. So Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Thank you. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): what would you say today to the parent, spouse, child, sibling or friend who loves someone at risk of overdosing but feels frightened, exhausted, angry or helpless? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, one, and you know my phrase, if there's a pulse, there's hope. know, change can happen. I've seen a lot of people with the work that we do that people pretty much checked them off and thought that they were gonna be goners and they've complete 180s and they're living a beautiful life right now. You know, through proper structure, through proper support. But the other thing is too, is for those individuals that got a loved one that's struggling. I think it's very important that they educate themselves and get the support that they need. And the one thing that, you know, I mentioned that my dad went to AA meetings with me, but he was going there to support me, but he was learning. But the one thing that I've learned in recovery is there are family support groups. Peer lead with individuals that have. a relative that's living with a mental health condition or some type of addiction in the household and they're living in recovery and they can share their stories about how they were able to encourage their loved one to get into recovery or get sober off of their drug of choice. As I said before, you know, there are overdose awareness groups that are out there. You know, some are more grieving groups, know, individuals that have lost relatives. for them to get their structure and their support, but there's also overdose awareness groups out there for individuals that have got family members or loved ones that have survived overdoses and how they can care and how they can love and how they can support the individual that's battling their addictions. I think education is so important. But again, as we, the addict, live with shame and guilt, our loved ones live with shame and guilt, and they don't seek out that help, they don't... Google to see if there's help or they got so much shame and guilt that they don't feel comfortable walking into that room because they feel that they failed as a parent or a spouse or a brother or a sister or whatever. They didn't fail. Their loved one is sick. educate yourself and find out the most effective way to be able to care for them and get them into recovery. I mean, but the thing where it does get frustrating is the individual needs to seek out help, treatment and support as well. Because if you don't, if you're doing it and they're not doing it, they're not going to get better. But by you getting that education, you might find out how other loved ones have gotten their person in their household to treatment. or to care or to support groups or to AA with little words that they used. And maybe that's the difference in your loved one actually getting the help that they need. So community is important, support is important, and education is so important as well. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): I think that's an important distinction because what you were basically saying is you can't help someone that doesn't want help. You can't force them to do the work. But if you educate yourself, then when the moment arrives that the person is willing to get the help and maybe through conversation after conversation of, I'm here, I'm learning stuff. So at any point in time you want to talk. I want to make sure that I know how to help you when you're ready to accept my help. I think that that would turn a lot of people around to go, wow, if they think it's so important that they're getting educated, just preparing for a conversation with me, maybe that's something that I need to really think about because they're worried about me enough that they're getting educated on how to even have a conversation with me. So, how about that for a conversation starter, right? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, you just made, you just said three words, accept the help. Again, the individual that's in it. They wanna get out of it, but the truth is they don't know how to accept the help. Or they're scared of the help, or they're scared of the changes that they have to make in their life. Or they're scared of going through withdrawals. Could be any of the above. So by a little verbiage, I mean, it could be the difference of two words in the sentence, could be the difference of somebody saying, okay, I'll go get the help that I need, or you know what, no. And that's what you're gonna get. with the knowledge by going to those support groups that are peer-led with individuals that have been through this, understand this, and got loved ones living a life of recovery. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): think that's huge. I thi to are going to thin of minutes of this conversa moment because I think th Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I want to say one other thing. Okay. Because it's important to understand too. So when I was in psychiatric care for the last over, I didn't, like I said, I did not want to go down to psychiatric care. was in intensive care, but did not want to go down to psychiatric care. I was told my mom signed a paper. I mean, I was calling my mom from the room and I was saying very not so nice things. Okay. To my mom. And I, to this day, and this is something that we've never discussed because again, I don't like reliving this. is, so I don't know if the psychiatrist told her to use this verbiage or what have you, but I remember in that conversation, she said, Marc, you're sick. And that was the first time any relative used the word sick. You're sick and we just want you to get better. And we want you to get, want you to get the help that you need. And my mom never used that terminology before. that I was sick. Nobody ever did. And honestly, that's when I stopped fighting and said, okay, I'll go down there. Now, my mentality was still I wanted to get out of there as quick as possible, but I still didn't see any way out of it. But just her using those words, you're sick, we want you to get better, allow me to kind of come down a little bit, stop arguing and fighting with security guards and go down there. Because once you get down there, you don't know what's going to happen. You might have one person speak like with me and that might change the whole process. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, so the words were liberating. They were allowing you to say, this isn't just me making a choice to be an addict. I no longer have that choice because I'm sick. It gave you, I don't want to say a way out, but a way to process it where you didn't have to have so much shame and guilt. And you could actually say, I have a condition and it needs to be treated. And the best thing I can do for myself and for those who love me is get treatment for this sickness and not have to just hide behind the shame and guilt of some act that you continue to make a choice to commit, right? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I mean, just those simple words right there. And that's what I mean by loved ones going to those support groups and finding out different verbiage that was being used. Because, you know, they're frustrated and I get that. And when you're frustrated, sometimes words come out that aren't necessarily the healthiest. And the truth is those were said to me many times by many people, friends, coworkers, some relatives, okay. of respect, their privacy. And I mean, all that makes you do is the person that's going through it feel shittier. And quite frankly, all you want to do is just get away from those feelings and you go use some more. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): So I've been waiting, honestly, to bring this next topic up in one of our discussions because I have had conversations with you before where I've heard you get a little bit emotional when you talk to other people who their families weren't so lucky. So I just want to say it this way. So you received another chance and actually more than once and many people do not. So when you think about the people who died from an overdose and the families who now carry this absence, how do you process the fact that you're still here? And before you answer that question, I just want to make this point clear. I know how you feel when you talk about people like this and how difficult those conversations are to have with people where they kind of look at you like, Why did you survive and my kid or my brother or my husband, why didn't they? So I really want to give you an opportunity to speak to that and to those people. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well... I mean, really can't explain why I'm still here. The only thing I can explain is... luck, irony, divine intervention, whatever it might be. I feel guilty sometimes. I'm not going to lie to you. I mean, I've seen a lot of good people pass away. And what I try to do is I try to take those feelings and kind of spin it in my brain and make it a positive. I think that the work that we'll be doing in the community is going to prevent other people, you know, from being a statistic from their disease. And I don't want their death to be in vain, if you will. You know, so when we do a presentation or with Suffer To Tougher, or if I do a presentation at the hospital and speak at the psychiatric unit or visit people in detox. It's not only for me, man, it's for the people that are no longer here. You know, I don't want their death to be in vain. It's sad that they're no longer here. It's sad that they couldn't find a way out of it. But I think of them and the fact that they're no longer here. And I try to twist it or shift it in my mind, brain set, reset, and say, okay, they're here with me and we're going to try to prevent another person from being a statistic. If that makes sense. That's just how I justify it in my brain. Because there's a lot of why's, why me, why am I still here? You know, I mean, I do, I sometimes ask this question quite a bit. And the only way that I can explain it is I was kept there for a reason. I was absolutely kept here for a reason. feel it in my heart. I feel it in my soul. It wasn't to do insurance. It was to do the work that we're doing in the community to prevent other people from being in statistics. There's no question about it. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, so as a follow up and it's going to come across as a question, although I think it's going to be more of an explanation because I think everyone who knows you at all knows the answer and you've kind of already alluded to it. And that is, do you now feel a responsibility because of all that to do something meaningful with your life? To give back because you got that chance and other people didn't. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): 100%. I mean, I'm very fortunate that I'm still alive. I know that. I just feel that was kept here for a reason. And that reason wasn't to sell insurance. That reason was to pay it forward, help people get educated, help people get sober, help people get their mental health in check, and pay it forward and try to show people that there's a better way to live and a much healthier way to live by sharing my experiences. It's been a ride. been a journey. mean, I feel very fortunate to be alive, you know, and I know that's a gift every single day. People say all the time, you know, you run pretty hard and you you do anything for yourself and all this stuff. It's I do. I mean, it doesn't even feel like work sometimes like when you speak at a hospital and that because I mean, I enjoyed doing that. I enjoy. As Eric said in a couple of podcasts ago, you know, being a light in a dark space, bringing lightness or bringing light into a dark, dark presence and then seeing, you know, the light go on in people's eyes and the soul come back and, then turning their lives around and then being part of that journey. mean, I got a text yesterday from a young lady. Haven't heard from her in a couple of months, but she said, I just want to let you know I'm several months clean and sober. Thank you so much for your help. You know, when I get those, it makes me feel good on the inside. But I'm so happy for her because I know the condition that she was in previous to us meeting and the work that she put in. And she said she feels amazing and she never thought this was possible. It is possible. As I said before, if there's a pulse there's hope, so. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. And you've also mentioned something that's important for people who are struggling, they get sober and they're living a life of recovery and want to pay it forward. It's also good for your own recovery. You've said before. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, I it is. I mean, that's the whole 12 step in a traditional 12 step program is living a life of service. And it's good for your brain chemistry. I mean, nobody's going to feel bad about helping another person not die. Right? mean, it's when you see people turn their lives around, completely turn their lives around. And you knew that you might have played a little bit of part in it. There's no greater high. There's no need to chase alcohol or drugs or anything like that. I love that. You know, I love seeing, you know, the miracles of the work that we do. But the other thing is, too, is the further that you get into recovery, and I'm six plus years right now. It is easy to kind of forget where you come from. That's why this podcast is actually pretty important even for me personally, because it's reliving some of that stuff. And it's a reminder of where I was, you know, because you start going through life and you start doing certain things and so forth. And sometimes it becomes a distant memory. But like when you go speak at a hospital and you go visit a patient that's in detox and you see them shaking and you see a garbage can in front of them and they're boom, brings you right back to where you were. It keeps you grounded. You know, or if you're in a room, a support group room and somebody is explaining what they're going on and they're going through sickness and dealing with urges and craves, they don't know how to get out of this. Boom. It brings you right back to where you came from. You know, so I mean, it keeps you humble. And it's a reminder of, you know, how hard you work. But I respect the fact that the disease of addiction is doing pushups inside of my body right now. And if I don't stay proactive. You know, it certainly can come back. That's why I never say that I'm recovered. I just don't. I say that I'm in recovery because there's things that I need to do every single day. But I also say when I speak to patients that in roundabout way, it's kind of a privilege that we actually have the disease of mental health or addiction because we're in the same category as cancer. and disease category is cancer. And a cancer patient can't do things to prevent their cancer from not coming back. I mean, it might go into remission, but it might come back. I mean, yeah, you can change certain things and so forth, but you really have no control of it. The privilege of our disease is we have control of it. As long as we do the things every single day that we need to do, we can keep that disease in remission. And I think that's very important to understand. And again, that's kind of that brain set reset. It's not, is this happening to me or why do I have a mental health diagnosis or, you know, why was I dealing with that addiction that caused so much chaos in my life? I just try to flip the switch and be like, you know what? It could be worse. I could have had cancer and the cancer could have come back. Instead, I got this. And all I got to do is I got to do things every single day. And as long as I do things every single day and keep living the life that I'm living, I should be able to keep that in remission and keep it suppressed. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, so there's lots of great information here for anyone who is going through the situation themselves where they're using and don't know where to turn or don't they don't have a lot of hope, but we spoke directly to the people who support them. I want to speak directly to them. So if someone listening has already overdosed. or knows they're getting dangerously close, what do want that person to hear from someone who has been there and survived? What is your message to them today? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Change is possible, sobriety is possible, recovery is possible. Try not to live with shame and guilt because obviously you have a sickness and it's okay to accept the help and get the support that you need. You can't do this by yourself. You absolutely cannot do this by yourself. But through structure, through support. through daily rituals or discipline, you can beat your addictions, get your mental health in check and live a recovery lifestyle and completely turn your life around. I'm evidence of that. I know a lot of people that are evidence of that and you as the individual listening can have that life. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, well said. So Marc, I know this is not an easy part of your life to revisit, so thank you for being willing to talk about it. Not for attention, but because someone listening might recognize themselves or someone they love in your story. International Overdose Awareness Day is about remembrance, but it's also about action. We remember the people who died and the lives they lived before the overdose became the final chapter of their story. We recognize the families and friends left behind, including those grieving a death and those still living with the fear of losing someone. We stand beside the people struggling without reducing them to their worst moment or treating addiction as a failure of character. And we honor the people who acted, the friend who stayed, the family member who kept the Narcan nearby, the stranger who called 911, the Uber driver who recognized that Marc was in danger and refused to look away. If you believe someone may be experiencing an opioid overdose, administer Naloxone if it's available and call 911 immediately. Stay with the person until emergency help arrives. If you or someone you love is ready to look for treatment in the United States, visit findtreatment.gov or call the SAMHSA National Helpline. That's S-A-M-H-S-A, National Helpline at 1-800-662-HELP. That's 1-800-662-HELP. It's free, confidential, and available 24 hours a day. Marc is still here because people acted. Someone else may still be here tomorrow because you do too. This has been Rebuild and Fulfill. Thank you for listening, and please share this episode with someone who may need it. Take care.