Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 35: Self-Pity vs True Empathy

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35: Self-Pity vs True Empathy · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

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Hey everybody, got a question for you.
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Have you ever experienced this where your partner's asking you
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be empathetic and you're like, I feel like I'm being empathetic
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And then she says that I'm not. And you're like, I feel like I'm
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sharing emotion and I'm being vulnerable.
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But that doesn't feel like that's what's coming across.
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Or at least that's what she's saying or they are saying.
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That's what we're going to talk about today.
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Welcome to Beyond the Facade podcast.
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I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and I'm thrilled to have you join me
0:30
in this space today. What we're going to be doing is
0:32
diving deep into the trials and triumphs and truths of seeking
0:36
authenticity. Becoming your true self isn't
0:38
about a single action or a moment.
0:40
It's a relentless pursuit, a commitment to self that reveals
0:44
the rich connection and meaning that our life has to offer.
0:47
So whether this is your first time tuning in or you're a
0:49
regular listener, know this what you're building here goes beyond
0:53
a conversation. You're here to challenge, to
0:55
change and to celebrate the incredible journey of becoming
0:58
your authentic self. Because when you dare to show up
1:01
fully, the rewards are immeasurable.
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So welcome to Beyond the facade. Let's get started.
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I'm very happy that Alan and I are joining our podcast today.
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A lot of Amy's podcast with my podcast to talk about this
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topic. Alan and I were discussing the
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this concept of self pity and I really liked what she had to say
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about it and thought about how related to at least my journey.
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And it reminded me of one time in our story along and where in
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the very beginning I've been caught and in the process of
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getting caught. You said, hey Luke, will you
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like and I'm going to slaughter this because this is not your
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experience. This is just what I experienced,
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which is you said, Luke, you're crying and you're upset and can
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you stop focusing on you for just a second so I can talk to
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you about what I'm experiencing. And I remember being like, wait,
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what's she talking about? Because I am, I thought it was
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supposed to be like showing up this way.
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I thought I was supposed to be in a lot of remorse and feeling
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really, really bad about what I did.
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And I was thinking about the self pity concept that you
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brought up, Alana of I think that self pity.
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I thought I got confused with empathy and the self pity is
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like something that my partner wants me to be experiencing is
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like that woe is me, like I'm bad.
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And that actually wasn't connecting at all.
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And that's what I thought I was supposed to be doing and
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feeling. Yeah.
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Yeah. Go ahead, Juan.
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I can't take credit for the quote because it was one of my
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clients who brought this to me. But she said to me, and as soon
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as she said I was like, hold on, I have to write this down.
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She said self pity is just as harmful as self obsession
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because there's no room for anybody else.
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And I was like, well, I'll hold on.
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Self pity is just as harmful as self obsession because there's
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no room for anyone else. And I was like, that makes so
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much sense because there's so much selfishness in both of
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those. And I wouldn't have thought
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initially as self pity as a selfishness, but when we have
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addiction naturally to protect the addiction and protect those
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acting out behaviors, we can get over time this really selfish
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mindset. And I don't care what addiction
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we're talking about. Addiction at its core is just
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very self-centered. And it's almost like this vacuum
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that just sucks everything into it and to where if we have
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addiction long enough, it shapes that person and to be a very
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self absorbed person. And so when somebody has lots of
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self pity, there isn't room for anyone else.
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It's only about them and their experience.
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And I remember that. And I can't remember you used to
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send me emails or journal prompts every night.
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And I don't remember if your therapist had suggested that or
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if that's what you had chosen to do.
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But we were living apart and you would send me these emails every
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night. And I remember that I didn't
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want to care about them, but I so waited for when they would
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arrive. And I was constantly looking at
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him and like, dissecting them for going am I safe?
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Is he safe? Is he changing?
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Does he see? Does he understand?
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And what I quickly learned by watching them was how much of
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those were focused just on you and your pain and your
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experience. Yeah.
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And by the way, I sent those to keep you closer to me.
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I couldn't see that at the moment, but it was like, what
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can I do to stay her close? Because she'd asked for a
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separation at that point. You would ask for separation.
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And I was trying to do anything I could to keep you as close to
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me as possible. So if I could send you a journal
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entry, that would be you looking into my brain.
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And which is interesting because you saw a lot of self pity,
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right, Which is what I thought you would want to see.
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Self pity, by the way, I did not know I was doing this.
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This is not something consciously.
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I was like, OK, So what I'm going to do is I'm going to
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create a journal entry so I can manipulate her, indicate her to
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see that I'm changing. It was such a subconscious self
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protection. Like how can I keep her close?
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She's asked for separation, what can I use to keep it there?
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So I was like, oh sure, my journal entries with her, that
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way she can see my brain is changing.
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In I will also say I don't recommend sharing of a journal.
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And the reason for that is, and I'll speak to you and I, Luke,
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but I'll say this for any of my clients, you couldn't write in
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your journal for you to really understand and process knowing
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that I was reading it. And so it wasn't a journal
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because no matter how much you would try to convince yourself
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otherwise, there's this part of you that's so consciously aware
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that the person you're trying to win back is reading and watching
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this. And so at some level, it stays
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performative. And so just performative.
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Yeah. If you are going to journal, do
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journal in a way in a place that really is for you to dissect and
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understand. And if you want to write a
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letter separate, so be it. But I just want to put that out
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there 2 separate things. And that was so interested in
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performing, making sure people saw what they wanted them to
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see. Can we go back to that quote?
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Can you say the quote one more time?
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Yeah, self pity is just as harmful as self obsession,
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because there's no room for anyone else.
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Yeah. So what?
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Why? I'm not asking for the context
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of how it came up or why it came up, but why does it come up in
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the work that you do with the people you work with?
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Like, why is this? Yeah.
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Yeah, that's such a good question.
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And honestly, I'm so sorry to whoever my client is who said it
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because it was wonderful. I don't remember what client
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said it or in what context, but sometimes it's really easy to
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look and like right now. Narcissist is a hot topic word
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right? Hot Topic.
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And you look at addiction and addiction mimics a lot of
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narcissistic behaviors. And so it's really easy to go
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and go like, you know, you have narcissism over on this extreme
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where it's all about me and it's big and it's kind of in your
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face. And so we do see that and that
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is very obvious of selfishness. So that selfishness totally
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makes sense. So that makes sense seeing the
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selfishness in that. But on the flip side, sometimes
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what can be seen as humility isn't humility, but it's really
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self pity. And so the difference between
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those two, which I think is really helpful, is in humility,
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there's an accountability and there's an ownership and there's
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an energy around that of I recognize what I did, I'm owning
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what I did, and I'm taking accountability, I'm going to
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move forward versus the more of a victim role.
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The self pity, woe is me. I can't believe I did this.
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This hurts so bad. My life is now so hard, there's
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nothing I can do. Woe is me, that type of energy
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around it. But when I have clients or
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clients, partners who are in this deep self pity, they don't
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see beyond themselves. And so if we're talking
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relational healing, there's no room for relational healing.
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But even in that, there's not growth happening.
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Yeah. I, I think, like shame.
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So the humility gives room for somebody else, but the pity
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doesn't. It's just, it's just about self.
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Yeah, like you think of the Drama triangle or the Cartman
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triangle, you have the rescuer, the persecutor and the victim
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and how any relationship falls into this at some point, if not
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multiple times. But when we have addiction
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present or secretive behaviors present, guarantee we're going
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to have this triangle showing up often.
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And so really recognizing what does that victim role look like
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that there's nothing I can do. The helpless, the woe is me
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versus the persecutor. You did this, you're bad, you're
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mean. The rescuers, I'm going to fix,
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I'm going to make it better. None of those roles are actually
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helpful with the victim. We have to move out of the
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victim rule into a place of self accountability rule.
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And that's where it's often for the person that the betraying,
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the individual seeking recovery. It can feel really cold when
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your partner is creating space. But if you are in a place of
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self pity and they're creating space like it's very healthy,
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it's very important that they do that because it is all
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consuming. It is all about you.
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That's the only thing you can focus on.
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You can't hold space for that other person, so they have to
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distance themselves because there isn't any room from them.
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They have to move out of the picture.
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I'm curious with you where you primarily work with men, the
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self pity. How often do you see that show
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up with your clients? I think it's the reoccurring
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theme. I got our nature response want
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to go like all the time. Like I kind of want to go black
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and white with the like, that's, that's so much of it is, is woe
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is me, I'm bad, I'm, I'm intrinsically bad, I'm, I'm
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wrong, I'm bad. Like just as long as they're
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giving space for feelings, it's kind of slowly just gravitating
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towards shame, which involves that self pity, that powerless.
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We've been talking a lot about resentment lately and giving
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space for resentment being something that is actually
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happening. And a lot of times the men that
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I work with don't want to acknowledge the resentment and
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we try to give it a little space.
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There's resentment. And what does resentment stems
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from? It stems from powerlessness,
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feeling powerless, not necessarily being powerless, but
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feeling powerless. So if I feel that resentment and
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I feel powerless, there can be a lot of, wow, I just can't get
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this right, man. This is never going to get
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better like this. The self pity that you're
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talking about. Do you call that out when you
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see it? Do you call out that behavior?
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For sure. I don't think I've probably will
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more now. I don't think I've called it
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like, hey, there's self pity because for me, I know when
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somebody approaches me in my shame, if they just come
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straight at me and go, dude, what's up with you?
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Get rid of the shame. Man up.
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I'm like, Oh yeah, cool. Like thanks for calling me out.
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So there's sometimes a direct way, sometimes there's a less
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direct way, depending where I notice they're at.
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But yeah, it's noted and talked about.
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Yeah, I feel like it's a hard place to be because I don't want
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to discount the legitimate pain that both people are in.
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So the partner who's been heard is in pain and wants to be seen
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and wants that to be held space for.
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And the person who has acted out is also in a painful place
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because of the consequences of their choices.
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And especially too, for somebody who is a good person at their
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core to hurt somebody else in that way and see that that's
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traumatic for them too. Different with trauma, different
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level. I don't want to take away from a
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partner's pain, but I just I really want to hold space for it
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is painful and so when there's a ton of pain it's hard not to get
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sucked into that self pity. Yeah, yeah, that's where the
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groups, the men's groups can be really, really helpful is
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because men are able to call men out better than their partner
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can because they're not the person that hurt them.
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And be like, what are you doing? Why are you spending time being
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a victim? You're not a victim.
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You're powerful. Stop acting like you're
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powerless. So there can be more of that
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that can be talked about. But again, for people that are
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in that space, and that's where I feel for the betrayed partner.
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The partner in healing is when he's in the, he isn't because I
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typically work with guys and he's in that space.
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There's not a lot you can do but to remove yourself from that
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environment when he's in a place of self pity and recognize there
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is a space for me. So that means, yeah, I can't be
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relational because this person's not in a relational space.
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Yeah. And and that like, I think a
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kind way to frame it is stepping out of the drama triangle.
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And so I can see you are hurting and you're in a victim mindset.
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But if I jump in and I start being the rescuer, I'm part of
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the I'm part of the drama triangle.
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And so going to give you room and space to work through what
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you're feeling. If you're in a place, we would
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no longer be a victim mindset, but if we were doing this.
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But if you're in a place that you're ready to talk about it
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and move through it, I'm happy to talk about it.
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But I hope that you go process this with your therapist or go
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work this out with your group or reach out to your sponsor.
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But partner stepping out of the other two roles, if they're in
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the victim role, the partner stepping out of the fixer role,
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which is so hard for some of my partners, or stepping out of the
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persecutor role, which is so hard for some of my partners.
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Yeah. And then Lynn, can we
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acknowledge if we did, the person that would be training,
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can we just can I invite you to right now acknowledging that
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your partner stepping out of one of those roles of the rescuer or
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the persecutor, how both of them are difficult to step out of
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because they don't want to step out of that relationally.
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They would like to be relational, but they can't be
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relational because of the space that you're in.
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Just acknowledging that for a moment and just sitting with
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that. Well, and and when you get
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pulled into that vortex of self pity, sometimes it is hard to
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crawl your way out of it. And if you are used to your
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partner showing up and rescuing you, it absolutely can feel like
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abandonment. You're not being abandoned.
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But when they're not in that drama triangle and they have
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been in the past, that can feel untethered and.
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I'm sorry, I just thought of this fact of and remembering if
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it feels really good for them to fix it.
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It doesn't mean that it's really good.
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It doesn't mean that it's good for you or good for the
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relationship. You talked about your experience
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with that. That's such a good bully.
16:09
I just like you. You're a lot like you're good at
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fixing. Like I'm a therapist for a
16:15
living. I know, like, guys, on my worst
16:18
day, if Alana comes in and says, Luke, you're enough, you're good
16:24
at what you do. Like maybe I've just had a bad
16:26
day. Maybe just whatever it is, like
16:30
you're enough. Look at you.
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Yeah. That that makes me go like, you
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know what I am. There's nothing sustaining about
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that, there's nothing that means Alana always has to be there to
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give that to me and it doesn't come from within.
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And and like you said, it's not sustainable and it doesn't last.
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That doesn't actually change how you see you.
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Yeah, you know, that's, that's cool that Alana's got that
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times. And I'm not saying she should
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never say that or that's not acceptable language, but it's at
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A at a certain time in the journey, it is actually hurtful
17:08
for her to give me that and have me go.
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There's my gas, there's my fuel. I can do this.
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Now that has to be something where relationship I go myself
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that I can meet that need with inside of myself instead of
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having my partner meet that need.
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And it's very destructive for her to be that person who's in
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the pain, been hurt and say, OK, I'm going to I'm going to shove
17:29
down all of the destruction. I'm going to, I'm going to push
17:34
down all of that hurt. I'm going to lay down on the
17:36
fire and I'm going to give you something that you need that's
17:39
so destructive. In this concept was really
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foreign to me for many years. And the reason why it's so
17:49
destructive is A when I was spending my time trained to help
17:53
look or fix Luke, I wasn't working on me because I only had
17:57
so much energy and so much bandwidth to give and I needed
18:01
to do my own healing. So my own healing was stalling
18:03
out because I was trying to fix and heal him.
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But B he could never learn it for himself.
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So in my attempts to help, I was slowing down his process and his
18:15
healing and I needed to get out of the way so he could actually
18:19
do his real work. And while it looked good and
18:23
felt good on the surface, long term it was not actually
18:27
helpful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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And when you get that relationship with self, it just
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means that peace is not as far away because I can go to myself
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to find that compared to going to my partner to find that.
18:42
And that if I need to go to my partner, that means I need my
18:44
partner to be in the perfect spot.
18:46
And that's not fair to ask them to be in that perfect spot to be
18:49
able to handle my stuff. Anyway, that's good.
18:52
Thanks, Alana. Yeah.
18:54
Yeah. Thanks for bringing this
18:55
conversation up today and talking about what your client
18:58
that quote and thanks for quoting her.
18:59
That was awesome. Appreciate you all for showing
19:02
up. Listen to us talk about this and
19:03
looking forward to continuing the conversation.
19:05
Thanks, Alana. Thanks.
19:08
I want to speak to those who you feel like you're wearing a mask,
19:11
maybe that's coming up in your recovery, just more awareness of
19:14
the mask that you wear and you're really struggling to show
19:17
your authentic self. Like if people saw me, they
19:21
wouldn't be able to accept me. They wouldn't love me.
19:23
So that vulnerability piece, either somebody saying, hey,
19:26
you're not vulnerable enough, or you're like, I don't know, I'm
19:29
struggling with vulnerability and finding that genuine
19:32
connection specifically with people outside of your partner
19:36
and your partner. If that resonates.
19:38
I wanted to invite you to our Unmasked intensive in Spanish
19:42
Fork, UT. But it's a three day intensive
19:46
and it's hosted by Choose Recovery Services.
19:48
This experience is designed to help men who are ready to step
19:53
into self discovery and transformation.
19:56
So during the intensive let you know what you're inexperience,
19:58
you're going to connect with other men that are at similar
20:01
places in your journey. You're going to explore the true
20:04
meaning of what actually is integrity.
20:06
This isn't just an honesty thing, it's an integrity thing
20:09
and remove the masks that you have on the maybe cultures, the
20:13
society is placed on you and you're going to gain a deeper
20:17
understanding of how your family of origin.
20:20
Impacts your thoughts and your actions today and you're going
20:23
to be able to start on the journey of healing some of those
20:26
inner wounds from the past and how it's affecting your
20:29
relationships today. So again, Spanish Fork, UT it's
20:32
going to be January 15th through the 17th.
20:34
Take some steps towards reclaiming that authentic self.
20:38
And this is a huge investment in self when we recognize that.
20:41
So if you want to learn more about it, you can go to
20:44
treasurerecoveryservices.com, but we'll put in the show notes
20:47
more information if you I've been considering this for a
20:50
while, go ahead and make the jump.
20:52
I'm very excited to meet you. I want to see you in person.
20:58
Hi guys, this is Laura with Choose Recovery Services and I
21:01
wanted to just let you know about an intensive that we have
21:03
coming up in Spanish Fork, UT from January 22nd to the 25th.
21:08
This is an intensive that Hallie Roderick and I and Alana Gordon
21:12
will be running together and it's the Revive and Thrive
21:15
intensive. Something that Peter Levine says
21:18
is that trauma is physical. And because trauma is physical,
21:22
we need some physical component to that healing for it to move
21:26
through our bodies. And that's what this intensive
21:29
is aimed at. We have workshops, we have
21:32
experiences, we have lots of tools that we'll be sharing on
21:35
how to move trauma through your body in a physical, somatic way.
21:40
We hope you can join us. And For more information there
21:43
will be a link in the show notes or you're welcome to visit
21:46
chooserecoveryservices.com. Hope to see you there.
21:53
Hey, thanks for joining us today.
21:54
If this is something that you connected with, I'd love to meet
21:57
with you more and talk about it. So what you can do is go to
22:00
chooserecoveryservices.com or check the show notes and there
22:04
what we can do is set up a quick conversation.
22:06
Thanks so much for listening to Beyond the Facade where we
22:09
unmask the authentic self.