Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #797 Is Anxiety the Problem?

Transcript

#797 Is Anxiety the Problem? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now.
0:10
Speaker 2: But I just want to emphasize anxiety itself isn't the problem.
0:13
Speaker 2: We need to stop pathologizing that. It's the response to anxiety.
0:17
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show My Mom and.
0:21
Speaker 2: Dad podcasts at happy families dot com dot AU. That's
0:24
Speaker 2: podcasts with an SS at happy families dot com dot you.
0:27
Speaker 2: That's the email address to send us your questions. We
0:29
Speaker 2: love you listening questions every Tuesday. We answer them. Today
0:33
Speaker 2: it's the fourth of July. So for our North American friends,
0:35
Speaker 2: Happy fourth of July. We know that this is a
0:37
Speaker 2: very big day Independence Day in the United States.
0:40
Speaker 3: Did I say Happy fourth of July.
0:41
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that's what they say. Yeah, I think
0:43
Speaker 2: it's Happy fourth of July. And probably also worth mentioning
0:47
Speaker 2: that Canada Day since we're talking about our North American friends,
0:51
Speaker 2: Canada Day was just a couple of days ago as well,
0:53
Speaker 2: on the first of July, So Happy Canada Day for
0:57
Speaker 2: all of our Canadian friends. He all right, so let's
1:02
Speaker 2: dive into this one. Now. This one's actually got a
1:03
Speaker 2: bit of a North American feel to it, even though
1:05
Speaker 2: it's happened in Australia, and it was one of those
1:08
Speaker 2: questions that came through. It's such an unusual thing, but
1:11
Speaker 2: it ties in with so many things that so many
1:14
Speaker 2: families will encounter in terms of their kids being anxious.
1:16
Speaker 2: It's just that this well, like I said, it's got
1:18
Speaker 2: a slightly American tinge to it, and you'll see why.
1:21
Speaker 2: So this comes from a mum by the name of Annabelle.
1:24
Speaker 2: She was in Sydney. Just to be clear, this happened
1:27
Speaker 2: in Sydney and it was just just over a week ago.
1:30
Speaker 2: Two weeks ago, she said, while sitting outside with our
1:34
Speaker 2: three young kids at a fast food joint, my husband
1:38
Speaker 2: spotted a gun in a man's pocket. Didn't know if
1:42
Speaker 2: it was real or fake, but he quietly alerted me.
1:45
Speaker 2: We told our eldest, our seven year old, that we
1:47
Speaker 2: may need to leave sooner than expected, and it was
1:50
Speaker 2: really important that he listened to us. The man didn't
1:53
Speaker 2: go inside, and we stayed where we were because we
1:55
Speaker 2: didn't want to draw attention to ourselves, and my husband
1:58
Speaker 2: was able to discreetly tell this staff, who called the
2:00
Speaker 2: police when the man started to walk away. We took
2:04
Speaker 2: the kids inside, and when they were alone in the bathroom,
2:07
Speaker 2: my eldest told his dad that he was really, really
2:10
Speaker 2: scared and he didn't understand what was going on. My
2:13
Speaker 2: husband reassured him but didn't give any details, and then
2:16
Speaker 2: we went to leave, and that was just as the
2:18
Speaker 2: police arrived, and my son overheard the conversation with the
2:21
Speaker 2: police on our way to the car. That night, we
2:24
Speaker 2: answered all of his questions and he spent the night
2:26
Speaker 2: in our bed. The next day was easier, and he
2:29
Speaker 2: hasn't mentioned it since. Question. We don't want to create
2:33
Speaker 2: unnecessary anxiety. Is it okay to just not talk about
2:37
Speaker 2: it again if he doesn't raise it, and it seems okay.
2:40
Speaker 2: He's someone who has a hard time letting things go,
2:43
Speaker 2: often bringing up things from months or even years ago.
2:47
Speaker 2: So I read that email and I thought kids experience
2:50
Speaker 2: all kinds of challenging moments, times where they could be
2:53
Speaker 2: scared or anxious, and while this one has that gun
2:57
Speaker 2: element to it, I thought, well, this is kind of
2:59
Speaker 2: the sort of I think that a lot of families
3:00
Speaker 2: go through all the time. What happens when you kids
3:02
Speaker 2: experience something that's a little bit scary, when they have
3:05
Speaker 2: a lack of predictability in their lives and they're anxious.
3:08
Speaker 2: What are we supposed to do? How much do we
3:10
Speaker 2: continue the conversation? Where do we go from there?
3:13
Speaker 3: I think one of the things to recognize first up
3:17
Speaker 3: is when we find ourselves in those situations, whether we're
3:20
Speaker 3: children or adults, there is a level of anxiety that
3:24
Speaker 3: comes with it because we don't understand all the details.
3:27
Speaker 3: For this little boy, he recognizes that there's an element
3:30
Speaker 3: of stress. He can feel the tensions in the air.
3:32
Speaker 3: Mum and data acknowledge that we need to leave, but
3:35
Speaker 3: he doesn't understand what's going on, and so just the
3:39
Speaker 3: lack of knowledge is enough to create anxiety, and lots
3:42
Speaker 3: of people it's a normal response to that kind of situation.
3:47
Speaker 2: So this is what the Australian Psychological Society defines anxiety
3:51
Speaker 2: as anxiety is a natural and usually short lived reaction
3:55
Speaker 2: to a stressful situation that's associated with feelings of worrying, nervousness,
3:59
Speaker 2: or apprehend In other words, something that stressful happens and
4:04
Speaker 2: you get worried and fearful about what might happen as
4:07
Speaker 2: a result of that, and that's called anxiety. It's natural
4:09
Speaker 2: and it's short lived. And so when I'm reading this email,
4:13
Speaker 2: what I'm thinking is, we've actually got a really healthy
4:16
Speaker 2: response here. We have a habit, not just in this country,
4:20
Speaker 2: but around the world, particularly in Western nations, well to
4:24
Speaker 2: do nations. We have a habit of pathologizing anxiety. And
4:29
Speaker 2: what I mean by that is we think that there's
4:31
Speaker 2: a problem if you're feeling anxious. And I want to
4:33
Speaker 2: shout this from the rooftops. Every time I do another
4:35
Speaker 2: anxiety webinar or another anxiety seminar, or talk to a
4:38
Speaker 2: whole of pearance about anxiety, I just want to scream
4:41
Speaker 2: it out loud. There's nothing the matter with being anxious.
4:45
Speaker 2: Anxiety is a normal and healthy response to a stressful situation.
4:51
Speaker 3: When it becomes a problem, though, when you can't go
4:54
Speaker 3: about your normal day to day, when it infiltrates the
4:59
Speaker 3: normal day to day day happenings, right, that's when we
5:03
Speaker 3: need to be concerned.
5:04
Speaker 2: So when you have impaired function or the other time
5:06
Speaker 2: that it becomes a problem is when you're anxious about
5:10
Speaker 2: nothing like there is no stressful situation. It's an imagined
5:13
Speaker 2: future event that you're stressful about, but you don't know
5:15
Speaker 2: what it will be. You just know that it's coming,
5:17
Speaker 2: and so you're fearful. And so what we're talking about
5:19
Speaker 2: here is there's what we call an internalization process going on,
5:23
Speaker 2: and the worries and the fears about some unspecified future
5:27
Speaker 2: event are clouding your capacity to function right here, right now.
5:31
Speaker 2: But generally speaking, most of our anxieties, especially a situation
5:35
Speaker 2: like this where you've said to a child, there is
5:37
Speaker 2: an issue. We're not going to talk to you about
5:38
Speaker 2: it right now, but if we ask you to leave,
5:40
Speaker 2: you need to do exactly what we say. This is important.
5:42
Speaker 2: Like you can imagine, you've got the intense eyeballing, you've
5:46
Speaker 2: got the low serious tone in your voice. You're making
5:49
Speaker 2: sure that your child is fully attentive.
5:51
Speaker 3: But now on high alert.
5:52
Speaker 2: They're on high alert, that's right. And what that does
5:54
Speaker 2: at hijacks what we call the in the brain. There's
5:56
Speaker 2: a little part of the brain called the amygdaler. It's
5:58
Speaker 2: part of our limbic system, and that's the emotional part
6:01
Speaker 2: of the brain, and it kind of takes over our
6:05
Speaker 2: rational thought and just all of a sudden where it
6:09
Speaker 2: activates the sympathetic nervous system, which is our fight or
6:13
Speaker 2: flight system. So you've got a little seven year old
6:15
Speaker 2: who's suddenly gone from parasympathetic rest and digest. Everything's comfortable,
6:20
Speaker 2: I'm feeling good, I'm with people that I like in
6:22
Speaker 2: life is predictable, and now we've activated sympathetic nervous system
6:26
Speaker 2: responses fight or flight, shallow breathing, rapid perspiration. What is
6:31
Speaker 2: going to happen next? And that's where that's where we
6:34
Speaker 2: sort of move into if it's not dealt with effectively,
6:40
Speaker 2: that's where we move into difficulties with anxiety. But I
6:43
Speaker 2: just want to emphasize anxiety itself isn't the problem. We
6:45
Speaker 2: need to stop pathologizing that. It's the response to anxiety
6:50
Speaker 2: that's the problem. So when we give a response to
6:52
Speaker 2: anxiety that doesn't allow for a healthy way of processing,
6:56
Speaker 2: or where that unpredictable ability is too high and that
7:00
Speaker 2: sympathetic nervous system is pumping out all of that adrenaline,
7:03
Speaker 2: all that cortisol, all of those stress hormones, that's when
7:06
Speaker 2: we start to move into big processing issues. And that's
7:10
Speaker 2: where we start to move into anxiety disorders and trauma,
7:13
Speaker 2: which ultimately are just a result of unhealthy responses to anxiety.
7:18
Speaker 2: So again the anxiety itself isn't a problem. It's the
7:21
Speaker 2: way we're responding to the anxiety. It's a problem even
7:23
Speaker 2: with an anxiety disorder. What are you worried about? Nothing? Okay,
7:26
Speaker 2: So let's process is healthily because that unspecified thing in
7:29
Speaker 2: the future that you're worried about, that's unspecified stressful event,
7:32
Speaker 2: that's meaning that you can't function today. If we can
7:34
Speaker 2: process what's going on for you right now healthily, the
7:37
Speaker 2: anxiety will be managed and reduced and you can get
7:41
Speaker 2: on with your day. Ultimately, anxiety comes down to processing.
7:45
Speaker 3: So you've used this word processing. So in relation to
7:48
Speaker 3: our children, if we were to help people, yeah, who
7:53
Speaker 3: help parents dealing with challenges related to natural responses of
7:59
Speaker 3: anxiety in different situations, what would you say would be
8:03
Speaker 3: the top two or three things that we need to
8:05
Speaker 3: do as parents to help our children process their anxiety
8:11
Speaker 3: in healthy ways.
8:13
Speaker 2: The number one thing that I would say is don't
8:15
Speaker 2: fight the emotion, don't try to fix the emotion, don't
8:20
Speaker 2: pathologize the emotion, don't do each other they're wrong for
8:22
Speaker 2: having the emotion. Instead, take a leaf out of the
8:24
Speaker 2: Gentle Parents Book from Parental Guidance and simply say what
8:28
Speaker 2: you see. The ability to I mean, psychologist has been
8:31
Speaker 2: talking about this for decades. The ability to name it,
8:34
Speaker 2: to tame it, maybe one of the most important things
8:37
Speaker 2: that we can do to reduce anxiety. When a child
8:40
Speaker 2: is starting to hyperventilate, I'm really scared, when the amigdala
8:44
Speaker 2: has taken over, when they're in fight or flight. The
8:46
Speaker 2: best thing that we can do is say, you're really
8:48
Speaker 2: worried right now, aren't you. There's this great quote from Heimgannot,
8:53
Speaker 2: and it's actually it's been a quote that I've used
8:55
Speaker 2: in workshops for years, and I've recently picked up Lisa
8:58
Speaker 2: Demoure's new book. It's called The Emotion The Lives of Teenagers,
9:01
Speaker 2: and in the front of that book she quotes Heimgannot
9:04
Speaker 2: one of my favorite quotes of all time. It is
9:06
Speaker 2: a deep comfort to children to discover that their feelings
9:09
Speaker 2: are a normal part of the human experience. You see,
9:11
Speaker 2: when you've got a child who's six or seven and
9:14
Speaker 2: they've got the big emotion, it's getting bigger and bigger
9:17
Speaker 2: inside them, and we say stop it, calm down, cut
9:19
Speaker 2: it out, stop being so silly. When we do that
9:21
Speaker 2: to their big emotions, they're big anxieties, their big fears, worries,
9:24
Speaker 2: and things that they're apprehensive about. It tells them that
9:27
Speaker 2: that emotion that's inside them makes them dysfunctional. It tells
9:30
Speaker 2: them that there's something the matter with them because they're
9:31
Speaker 2: having this great, big feeling and they don't know what
9:33
Speaker 2: it is, because they don't have the emotional vocabulary, the
9:36
Speaker 2: language for it. And so not only are we telling
9:38
Speaker 2: them they're a bad person, we're telling them they're dysfunctional
9:40
Speaker 2: because something is happening inside them that we don't approve of.
9:44
Speaker 2: What I'm Gannott is saying is just let them know
9:47
Speaker 2: what you can see. You're really worried right now, aren't you.
9:51
Speaker 2: Because when you give that emotion and name, all of
9:54
Speaker 2: a sudden, your child recognizes that what they're feeling is universal.
9:58
Speaker 2: All people feel this. Parents can see it in me.
10:00
Speaker 2: And now that it's got a name, I know that
10:02
Speaker 2: I don't have to be scared about it anymore. That
10:04
Speaker 2: great big feeling that was taking over, Oh, it has
10:06
Speaker 2: a name. It's called anxiety, it's called fear, it's called worry.
10:09
Speaker 2: And now I can deal with it, or at least
10:12
Speaker 2: I can start to respond to it a little more. Healthily,
10:15
Speaker 2: I can process it a little more effectively. And the
10:18
Speaker 2: second thing I would recommend is to say to your child,
10:22
Speaker 2: would you like me to stay with you to help
10:24
Speaker 2: you or would you like to have some space? Like
10:27
Speaker 2: for me, that has been a game changer, both in
10:32
Speaker 2: my relationship with you and with the kids, just saying
10:35
Speaker 2: I know you're feeling really insert emotion here. I know
10:38
Speaker 2: feeling really stress, I know feeling really anxious. I know
10:40
Speaker 2: you're feeling really worried. I know you're feeling really angry.
10:42
Speaker 2: I know you're feeling really sad, whatever the emotion is.
10:44
Speaker 2: And if I'm wrong, you'll always tell me, and so
10:46
Speaker 2: all the kids, No, I'm not feeling that at all.
10:48
Speaker 2: What are you feeling? And then I get that clarity,
10:51
Speaker 2: I say, okay, well, I know you're feeling really this,
10:54
Speaker 2: and do you want to be with you like? Do
10:55
Speaker 2: you want hugs and you want to talk about it?
10:58
Speaker 2: Or do you want some space? Seven year old will
11:00
Speaker 2: tell you I'm scared, I want you with me, although
11:03
Speaker 2: I say I'm angry, I want you to leave me alone,
11:06
Speaker 2: and so you can. And then you go back to
11:08
Speaker 2: them a couple of minutes later and say I left
11:09
Speaker 2: you alone like you said, but I just wanted to
11:11
Speaker 2: check in, do you still want space or do you
11:12
Speaker 2: want to hu? Do you want to talk about it?
11:14
Speaker 2: And for me, that's the most powerful thing that we
11:17
Speaker 2: can do. Developmentally. Our kids are experiencing this really concrete thinking,
11:21
Speaker 2: it's really black and white, and that's only exacerbated by
11:24
Speaker 2: this emotion or fight or flight response. And so I
11:28
Speaker 2: think our job really is to step into the moment
11:32
Speaker 2: with our kids and just be there with them, name
11:35
Speaker 2: it entertainment, and give them the space, and then talk
11:37
Speaker 2: about it once they're can't.
11:42
Speaker 3: I know we've been talking about a seven year old,
11:43
Speaker 3: but just recently, our fifteen year old actually had a
11:46
Speaker 3: panic attack. I had left the house and I got
11:48
Speaker 3: a message from one of the girls to say that
11:50
Speaker 3: they needed help fast. When I walked in, I was
11:55
Speaker 3: absolutely blown away at how distressed our daughter was. She
12:01
Speaker 3: almost couldn't breathe, like it had really just absolutely taken over.
12:08
Speaker 3: I have actually never been with somebody in that situation.
12:11
Speaker 3: I've never dealt with it firsthand, and I wasn't sure
12:14
Speaker 3: what to do. I just knew she needed to know
12:17
Speaker 3: that I was there, and so I just grabbed her
12:21
Speaker 3: nice and tight and I said, I'm here. I just
12:24
Speaker 3: need you to look in my eyes and realize that
12:27
Speaker 3: you're okay. You're okay where I'm here. And what was
12:32
Speaker 3: so astounding to me is just how powerful our brains
12:35
Speaker 3: are and how quickly it escalated for her. She went
12:39
Speaker 3: from being completely in control to completely out of control.
12:43
Speaker 2: Yes, look call amigdala hijack.
12:46
Speaker 3: And yet how quickly we were able to diffuse it
12:49
Speaker 3: once she had something concrete to look at and to
12:52
Speaker 3: change the perspective, because in that moment, all she could
12:56
Speaker 3: think about was the one hundred and one things that
12:57
Speaker 3: were creating this panic attack. But to have something concrete
13:02
Speaker 3: to bring her back down, and within a few minutes,
13:05
Speaker 3: you know, she had really come down. I just said,
13:06
Speaker 3: you do you want me to cuddle you? Or do
13:08
Speaker 3: you want me to leave you? And she just rolled
13:10
Speaker 3: up into a ball on the bed with me, and
13:12
Speaker 3: I just sat there with her for probably about twenty minutes,
13:15
Speaker 3: and I felt as her body regulated, her breath, her heartbeat,
13:20
Speaker 3: everything come down. But it really was, like you said,
13:24
Speaker 3: just sitting in that space with her, You're okay, and
13:27
Speaker 3: I'm here as long as you need me.
13:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, there are one or two other things that
13:31
Speaker 2: I just want to quickly jump in here. We live
13:33
Speaker 2: in the lucky country, right, so guns are not really
13:36
Speaker 2: an issue here. We recognize that there are guns in
13:39
Speaker 2: this nation, but we don't tend to come across them
13:41
Speaker 2: in everyday life. It's very very rare for typical families
13:44
Speaker 2: to come across guns. Unless there are very good reasons
13:47
Speaker 2: for that family to have guns in the home. It
13:49
Speaker 2: just doesn't happen. So it's rare. But again, this anxiety stuff,
13:53
Speaker 2: it comes up all the time. The effectiveness of our
13:56
Speaker 2: responses to anxious moments is what we are really talking about,
14:01
Speaker 2: and I just want to emphasize as we go back
14:03
Speaker 2: to Annabelle's email, the last thing that she said was
14:07
Speaker 2: do we bring it up and talk about it again
14:11
Speaker 2: or because this is a kid who does ruminate and
14:14
Speaker 2: will bring things up several months later. So I don't
14:17
Speaker 2: have a perfect answer for this, because I'm not sure
14:18
Speaker 2: that there is a one size fits all answer. This
14:21
Speaker 2: is general advice. A guy called Tim Wilson wrote a
14:24
Speaker 2: fabulous book a few years ago called Redirect and he
14:27
Speaker 2: shared some science in there looking at first responders and
14:30
Speaker 2: whether or not going through counseling was good or bad
14:33
Speaker 2: for them. So there's this idea that talk therapy is necessary.
14:36
Speaker 2: We need talk therapy, especially when we experienced traumatic events.
14:39
Speaker 2: But what research has shown is that quite often talk
14:42
Speaker 2: therapy does exactly the opposite of what it's intended to.
14:44
Speaker 2: It exacerbates, magnifies, and amplifies the anxiety, the stress, the trauma.
14:48
Speaker 2: It actually leads.
14:49
Speaker 3: Actually go back, you put yourself back in that space.
14:51
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it leads to ineffective, unhelpful processing. Now, is
14:56
Speaker 2: there a blanket rule that says that you should or
14:58
Speaker 2: you shouldn't know? It depends on the individual and also
15:00
Speaker 2: depends on the time frame, Like you have something hard
15:04
Speaker 2: happened to you, and sometimes you just say I don't
15:05
Speaker 2: want to talk about this, But maybe six months down
15:08
Speaker 2: the track you say I think I'm ready now, or
15:10
Speaker 2: six years down the track you say, Okay, it's not
15:13
Speaker 2: going to traumatize me to talk about this, and now
15:15
Speaker 2: I can work through it because I've got enough distance.
15:18
Speaker 2: So what my inclination around this is with your kids,
15:22
Speaker 2: whether they've seen a gun in public, or there's been
15:25
Speaker 2: a police incident or a car accident, or just something
15:27
Speaker 2: horrible happened at school with bullying, if they've got that anxiety.
15:31
Speaker 2: My suggestion is check in with them after a week
15:34
Speaker 2: or so and say, hey, you know that thing. Do
15:36
Speaker 2: you want to talk about it anymore? Or you're feeling okay?
15:38
Speaker 2: I just want to check in and see how you're
15:40
Speaker 2: reacting to it, see how you're processing it, and let
15:43
Speaker 2: them be your guide. If they say I don't want
15:45
Speaker 2: to talk about it, and you can tell it they're scared,
15:47
Speaker 2: you say, okay, no problem, will give you some space.
15:49
Speaker 2: Do you want to talk to a school counselor or
15:50
Speaker 2: someone about it? No, okay, no worries. Let it be
15:53
Speaker 2: and check in again a couple of weeks later. But
15:55
Speaker 2: if they give you a really nonchalant no, it's cool,
15:57
Speaker 2: then you know that they've probably processed it, they've done
16:00
Speaker 2: with it, and just move on. I don't think that
16:03
Speaker 2: we want to be digging too deep into fresh wounds.
16:06
Speaker 2: We may be making it worse.
16:08
Speaker 3: I think one of the other things that has been
16:10
Speaker 3: really good for me is I don't think anybody ever
16:14
Speaker 3: helped me recognize the times where I was feeling anxiety.
16:17
Speaker 3: You know this idea of naming and taming, and so
16:19
Speaker 3: as an adult, there are certain responses that I have
16:24
Speaker 3: in different situations where it's only as I've been, I guess,
16:29
Speaker 3: learning about emotional regulation with our children, that I've recognized, Oh,
16:35
Speaker 3: I'm actually feeling anxiety right now. This is a bit intense,
16:39
Speaker 3: and so for me, being able to actually articulate that
16:43
Speaker 3: for myself helps me then understand when my kids are
16:46
Speaker 3: in that space as well.
16:47
Speaker 2: Bernard Brown's got this really cool thing. She says, if
16:50
Speaker 2: you can use a sentence before your own emotions, it
16:54
Speaker 2: gives you the distance that you need to process them effectively, healthily, functionally,
16:57
Speaker 2: and that sentence is I'm beginning to notice that I'm feeling.
17:01
Speaker 2: And so what we've got there is we've got this
17:02
Speaker 2: distance where oh, I'm standing outside of myself and looking
17:04
Speaker 2: in and noticing that I'm starting to feel anxious, and
17:07
Speaker 2: teaching kids that kind of phrasing as well can be
17:10
Speaker 2: really powerful. We could talk about this for a lot longer,
17:13
Speaker 2: but I hope that that answers Annabelle's question and is
17:15
Speaker 2: useful for anybody who's got kids who are dealing with
17:17
Speaker 2: some anxious moments. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by
17:21
Speaker 2: Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. We really appreciate Justin's work
17:23
Speaker 2: and Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you would
17:27
Speaker 2: like more information about making your family happier, please consider
17:30
Speaker 2: becoming a Happy Family's member. It's because of our Happy
17:32
Speaker 2: Family's members that were able to provide all these free
17:36
Speaker 2: resources to help you. Your contributions through the membership help
17:40
Speaker 2: us to help more people, and of course when you
17:43
Speaker 2: become a member you get a whole lot of premium
17:45
Speaker 2: content as well, so Happy Families memberships are available at
17:48
Speaker 2: Happy families dot com dot au. If you're not a member,
17:51
Speaker 2: please consider signing up today.
17:52
Speaker 4: It's cheap as chips and it makes a huge difference
17:55
Speaker 4: in your life, as well as helping us to continue
17:57
Speaker 4: to do things like this podcast and the face book
18:00
Speaker 4: page and all the things that we do to make
18:02
Speaker 4: families happier.
18:11
Speaker 2: M