Latest / The Kink Consultant / Emotional Masculinity: Breaking Down Toxic Masculinity, the Manosphere, and Real Intimacy with Matt Salis

Transcript

Emotional Masculinity: Breaking Down Toxic Masculinity, the Manosphere, and Real Intimacy with Matt Salis · The Kink Consultant

0:00
What we need to provide is an emotionally safe environment for
0:03
our partner and our family. We men suck at this.
0:06
We've been talking about the manosphere, and I think this
0:08
applies to dating as well. It's really important that we.
0:20
It's a King Consultant podcast where we're turning up the heat
0:23
on all things kink and dating, relationships and cop culture.
0:26
So close the door, plug in your headphones, and let's get down
0:29
to it. Hey everyone, and welcome to the
0:35
King Consultant Podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Dames.
0:39
I'm going to start off with an apology.
0:41
A few weeks ago, I had an amazing dating coach on the
0:44
podcast and we spoke about dating and men and women and
0:48
masculinity and femininity in general.
0:50
And I know that some of the ways we talked about masculinity
0:53
rubbed some people the wrong way.
0:55
And I really didn't mean to do that.
0:57
So I was like, what is happening with the word masculinity right
1:00
now? What is happening with the
1:02
masculine and the feminine? And why are we moving away from
1:05
these words that have become quite polarizing?
1:08
So I went on a hunt to find the right person to talk to, to help
1:12
me better understand masculinity and femininity and what's
1:15
changing about these words and how we live our lives at the
1:18
moment. And so today, I'd like to
1:20
introduce Matt Salas. He is a behavioral health writer
1:23
and researcher with over a decade of experience in
1:26
addiction and emotional abuse fields.
1:28
He has a master's degree in sexual health, and he is a
1:32
leading expert on intimacy and committed partnerships that are
1:35
impacted by traumatic dynamics like alcoholism and emotional
1:38
abuse. Matt himself cohost the
1:40
Intoxicated Podcast, and I've invited him on today because I
1:44
want to get in toxic masculinity versus what the right emotional
1:48
masculinity is. So, Matt, thank you so much for
1:51
being here today. Welcome.
1:52
Thanks for having me Amanda, I've been looking forward to
1:54
this conversation. So Matt, you have a Master's in
1:58
sexual health. My first question is what made
2:01
you specialize in sexual health? So I work with couples and
2:06
individuals who have experienced things like alcoholism, and
2:11
those things have damaged relationships.
2:13
And we live in an interesting time.
2:15
People are more willing than in the past to talk about
2:18
addiction. I mean, I think we've all
2:19
recognized that addiction in many forms is just kind of a
2:22
tsunami coming at us, especially with technology and porn and
2:28
Gant, like, like this is not something we can ignore any
2:30
longer. So people are really open and
2:32
willing to talk about addiction and as it relates to how it
2:36
damages relationships, they tend to talk pretty openly right up
2:39
to the bedroom door. And then that's when people tend
2:43
to get quiet and reserved and the vulnerability ends.
2:47
And so I realized if I'm going to learn as much about the
2:51
impact of things like alcoholism and emotional abuse on intimacy,
2:56
I'm going to have to get some formal education because it's
2:58
still taboo. It's still kind of a little bit
3:00
off limits. So I decided that was a great
3:02
place to spend my kind of education, formal education
3:06
time. And so, so that's what caused me
3:09
to pursue that master's degree. I love it and it does make so
3:13
much sense. I always say that people love
3:15
having sex. Nobody likes talking about sex,
3:17
at least not in the real vulnerable ways that it requires
3:21
to, funnily enough, have good sex.
3:23
Were you doing the addiction work before you did The Masters?
3:28
And it's sort of just lent itself to that being the right
3:30
course for you. Yeah, it sure did.
3:32
I myself am a recovered alcoholic.
3:34
I knew the damage that my drinking had done to my
3:37
relationship in all aspects, including intimacy.
3:40
I would find in working with other people, I'd find that a
3:44
lot of things resonated and I would learn from them as much as
3:47
they would learn from me. On all these topics like the
3:51
emotional side, nervous system stuff, ways that the
3:55
relationship had been damaged, the damage done to the kids and
3:58
the piece of it where I wasn't finding people willing to
4:03
express themselves was on the intimacy side.
4:06
So I looked for a program that really met my needs for not only
4:10
what I had experienced, but would allow me to take what I
4:13
experienced and communicate it in the best way possible, Back
4:17
out to people. I wanted to validate some of my
4:19
experiences and my assumptions and know that I wasn't just like
4:22
an oddball before I started talking openly and widely about
4:26
my experiences. I love that you went down the
4:28
path of let me validate things first because I think in the
4:31
world of social media, myself included, we are very keen to
4:34
just go on and talk about our experience and sometimes we
4:37
forget. Well, that's my perspective.
4:38
And I'm not sure it's validated. And we ultimately get it
4:41
probably from social media sometimes.
4:43
So I love that you took the academic route to make sure it
4:47
was validated. I learned a little bit about the
4:49
research process when I was in school and several of my
4:53
professors said, you know, internally we don't call it
4:56
research, we call it me search. Because if somebody is willing
4:59
to invest that kind of time and money and do a deep dive on
5:04
something in an academic research way, in many cases,
5:08
it's not always it's something they've experienced personally.
5:10
And so that was the case for me. And the program that I chose,
5:14
while it had a kind of a broad overview, it allowed me to
5:17
really dig deep. They encouraged me to do my
5:20
master's research efforts to focus on the impact of things
5:25
like alcoholism and other addictions on that intimate side
5:29
of the relationship, so it was a really good fit.
5:31
So is that where sober evolution came from?
5:34
Did that come out of your master's degree?
5:36
Yeah, the book is titled Sober Evolution.
5:38
I wrote it before I got the master's degree.
5:41
There are three kind of sections to the book.
5:43
My alcoholism, my recovery, so very me centered, and then the
5:48
impact on the relationship. And while we do talk about
5:51
intimacy in the book, it's not the deep dive that I'm capable
5:54
of doing now after having done the education.
5:58
OK, so there might be a 2.0 version or a new book coming
6:01
soon. I'm working on another book
6:03
right now that's really on the topics that we're talking about,
6:06
emotional safety and emotional masculinity.
6:09
The book that I'm working on right now is presenting like 20
6:12
case studies of people who have had addiction and emotional
6:16
abuse destroy their relationships and what they've
6:19
done to come out the other side. And there's certainly intimacy
6:22
pieces that are woven through the stories.
6:24
Oh, amazing. All right, Well, I cannot wait
6:26
for that. That's the perfect segue.
6:28
Let's get into it. You heard my intro.
6:30
We talked a little bit about a previous episode that I did with
6:33
an amazing dating coach who I respect a lot, but you know, I
6:36
didn't understand the depths of what's happening with the word
6:40
masculinity and what's happening in society with masculinity
6:43
right now. We touched on this in the pre
6:45
interview a little bit. But the manosphere I think is
6:49
something to blame. So I find you to be more of an
6:52
expert than I am. Like, can you talk about this
6:55
negative world that is the manosphere right now?
6:58
Yeah, you bet. I believe that what's going on
7:01
with technology and AI specifically is kind of covering
7:05
up what is actually the biggest revolution that's taken place
7:09
during my lifetime. In my lifetime, women have
7:12
gained sexual autonomy, they've gained financial independence,
7:16
they've gained educational superiority, intellectual
7:19
equality. You know, the year I was born,
7:22
my mother-in-law had to get her father to Co sign on a checking
7:26
account because she was recently divorced.
7:29
And I'm not even talking about credit.
7:30
I'm talking about she wasn't even allowed to go to the bank
7:32
and put her own money in and write checks on it.
7:35
You know, in 1997 when I was in college, it was still legal in
7:39
some states in the United States for a man to rape his own wife.
7:42
The degree to which we've had massive advancements for women.
7:47
And I know we're in a period right now where it feels like
7:49
some of that's being clawed back and women are losing rights.
7:53
I'm hopeful, I'm prayerful that that's a blip and that the
7:55
progress will continue. I think that it really will.
7:58
But in 50 years, I. Mean we've made.
8:01
Incredible progress as it relates to the freedom and the
8:05
rights and the evolution really of women and men.
8:09
We are lost in a fog with how to deal with that.
8:12
We have not responded well. And I think we have to, we have
8:16
to step up and respond. And what I'm seeing out there
8:19
are three approaches. One approach is just to lament
8:23
and complain and whine about the fact that as a man, I can't get
8:27
a woman to be attracted to me. And the old things don't work
8:31
and they changed and change is somehow bad.
8:34
Like we're all supposed to change, we're all supposed to
8:36
advance. And the fact that that is viewed
8:38
as a negative is just befuddling to me.
8:41
The second approach that some men are taking is the manosphere
8:44
stuff. This let me double down on
8:46
traditional forms of masculinity.
8:48
What a woman really wants is for a man to lead need.
8:51
And so I need to be dominant in the bedroom.
8:53
I need to be dominant as it relates to who makes the
8:56
decisions in the relationship and parenting.
8:59
And if I can just get buff in the gym and invest in crypto,
9:04
then every woman is going to be just begging to be a part of my
9:07
life and that's going to solve all my problems.
9:09
It's just another grift. You know, it's just another take
9:12
people who are hurting, in this case men, and convince them I've
9:16
got the solution to all your problems.
9:17
Here's the snake oil you need to buy.
9:19
So I think the man is first stuff is really, really
9:21
troubling. I think it's hopefully semi
9:25
short term and it absolutely has no chance of success.
9:29
So what I've started to focus on is what I think is the third.
9:33
Yeah. I mean, well, there's no way
9:35
it's going to be successful. The degree to which it drags us
9:38
down is the real question. But I think there's a third way.
9:42
I think we need to acknowledge and celebrate the advancements
9:45
made by women, and then as men, we need to evolve as well.
9:49
We can't just continue to be Archie Bunker, right and come
9:51
home after work and sit on the couch and drink beer and
9:55
complain that dinner isn't on the table on time.
9:57
No woman is attracted to that anymore.
9:59
I've done research myself within our organization that shows that
10:03
what women are looking for before they're in a relationship
10:07
is signaling of emotional safety, and what they're looking
10:11
for once they're in a relationship is emotional
10:13
safety. It's not the financial side.
10:15
Women aren't looking for a man to go out and earn a paycheck
10:17
for them anymore. And so we have to evolve.
10:21
We can still be masculine, but we need to be emotionally
10:24
masculine. And so the three kind of
10:28
buzzwords related to masculinity are provide, protect, and lead.
10:32
We can still take those thousands or millions or however
10:36
you look at it, years of ingrained and genetically passed
10:39
down instincts to provide, protect and lead.
10:42
We just have to point them in a different direction.
10:45
And so for me, what we need to provide is an emotionally safe
10:49
environment for our partner and our family.
10:51
And that includes a low anxiety home life without raised voices.
10:55
We need to protect our partner and our family from comparison,
10:59
critique and criticism, all the stuff that thrives on social
11:02
media. And at least within the
11:04
household, we need to have limited teasing and limited
11:07
negativity and create that safe environment.
11:10
And then we need to lead resentment processing, trauma
11:13
processing, and emotionally intimate conversations.
11:15
And this is an area, Amanda, we men suck at this, this, but this
11:20
is our work. This is our work.
11:22
We have to evolve. We have to step up.
11:23
We have to meet women in the moment.
11:25
I love everything you just said. I do think those not already
11:30
captured into the manosphere who are younger than us, the younger
11:33
generation, I actually think are much better emotionally than
11:37
even. Like my partner is 33 years old
11:40
and even though it's only like 4 1/2 years younger than me, I
11:43
already noticed a huge shift in how he and his friends talk
11:46
about emotion and talk about things.
11:48
So I I think that it is potentially getting better.
11:51
What can we as women look out for?
11:54
How can men signal that they are emotionally safe in a way that
11:57
is grounded, that doesn't necessarily match up to I guess
12:02
what society has always thought of as masculine, but still
12:05
signals what women are looking for?
12:08
That's a big question. In addition to what we've talked
12:10
about, I coached college and high school soccer, men and
12:13
women, and what I say to the women all the time is you have
12:17
to demand respect in all of your engagements, in all of your
12:21
relationships, professional romantic friendships otherwise,
12:25
and just have 0 tolerance for any of the kind of old school
12:31
misogynistic grossness. Other than that, I think the
12:34
work is on the side of the men. I don't think women have a lot
12:38
to do other than to demand to be treated the way they deserve to
12:42
be treated in all their relationships.
12:44
The signaling comes from the way we treat our partners and
12:49
potential partners well into the relationship.
12:52
Not only just at the beginning, but it has to continue.
12:56
I like to say the thing that turned my marriage around was
13:00
when I started treating my wife like we were always on a second
13:03
date. So I'm still being polite.
13:06
I'm still being courteous. I'm not walking through the
13:09
kitchen and slapping her on the ass or grabbing her boob.
13:12
I mean, there's room for that kind of playfulness, but my wife
13:16
has to be in the mood. And if she's not, all that is is
13:18
taken at is objectification and it's not welcome.
13:23
And so one of the problems that happens is we get comfortable in
13:26
relationships and then we drop that kind of second date.
13:29
I like to use the acronym Abd always be dating.
13:32
When we drop the Abd acronym and we start treating each other
13:36
with too much comfort, we are losing that emotional safety.
13:40
We are losing the thing that our partner probably found
13:43
attractive from us in the 1st place.
13:45
Does that make sense? Oh, it makes total sense.
13:47
I was just having a conversation with my own partner recently
13:50
about when you lose that what happens is it's not even like
13:53
you're becoming like friends. You're actually becoming like
13:56
siblings because you have the closeness, like you fight with
13:59
your siblings in a different way than you fight with your
14:01
friends. Keeping that respect and that
14:04
second date energy keeps the closeness, the focus on intimacy
14:08
and then also that respect that you're talking about.
14:12
So I love that analogy always be dating each other.
14:15
It makes complete sense. Well, and I love that you bring
14:18
in the analogy of it's like the way you treat a sibling because
14:21
who wants to have sexy time with a sibling, right?
14:23
Talk about pouring cold water on it.
14:26
I'm going to do everything that I can to keep my relationship
14:29
from resembling A sibling relationship.
14:31
Yeah, because so when he said that, I was mind blown because I
14:33
was like, you're right. We all talk about how we're like
14:35
roommates. A lot of people, especially who
14:38
I. Hear it too, yeah.
14:40
We're like roommates, but it's not even that.
14:42
It's like siblings because you do have that closeness.
14:46
At least with my roommates, I clean my dishes.
14:47
Like I don't leave my dishes in the sink because there is still
14:50
a level of respect there. But I've never thought about it
14:53
like that in terms of just having that respect.
14:56
And I would say even standing up for myself sometimes even in the
15:01
workplace, it was easier to just laugh off some types of jokes or
15:06
comments than it was to address them.
15:08
But it is important to stand up and say, hey, I deserve respect
15:12
and don't talk to me like that. What's interesting about with
15:16
that demanding respect, standing up, so we work with a lot of
15:19
people who their relationship needs a lot of repair work.
15:22
They've been through something bad, alcoholism or otherwise
15:25
some kind of trauma, right? The most important thing people
15:28
can do in relationship recovery is to detach from the
15:32
relationship and work on themselves as individuals.
15:35
Because what happens when we work on ourselves as individuals
15:37
is we start to build self esteem.
15:39
And a person with high self esteem is not going to tolerate
15:42
abuse, emotional or otherwise, that we're talking about.
15:46
And so by kind of default, strengthens the relationship,
15:49
but not because they're working on the relationship, because
15:52
they're working on themselves. Another thing you said was the
15:55
work is on the men's side to address this and be emotionally
15:59
safe themselves. I want to jump right into it.
16:02
Have you ever worked with anyone who had that toxic version of
16:05
masculinity or that ideal that had been passed down to them
16:08
that you saw do the work and really integrate a more
16:12
emotional side to themselves? It's funny because in most
16:16
cases, we meet the female partner and had a sexual
16:19
relationship 1st and she's into what we're saying and she brings
16:23
her male partner in and the first reaction we always get is
16:28
who the Hell's this guy? What's this guy slinging?
16:30
And so there's a lot of distrust for me right off the bat.
16:33
Some men, I just don't think they're picking up what we're
16:36
laying down. But for the ones that are open
16:38
minded and curious and they start to buy in, I think they
16:42
find a great deal of success from understanding the damage
16:46
they've done in their relationship.
16:47
And I'm not just talking about alcohol and alcoholism.
16:49
I'm talking about being kind of traditionally masculine.
16:53
Let me give you an example. And this is the way I was raised
16:55
in a very patriarchal home. My dad was the boss, boss.
16:58
He made all the big decisions. He handed down the punishment.
17:01
He was the disciplinarian. The worst thing my mom could
17:04
ever say is wait till your dad gets home.
17:06
That meant my sister and I, we were in big time trouble, right?
17:09
So that's the environment I grew up in and that's the environment
17:13
that I started out with in my family.
17:15
And So what that meant for me is I kind of rule the roost.
17:19
This is my safe zone. So I would come home and let's
17:23
say I wasn't upset with anyone in my family, but I had a really
17:25
bad day and I would rant and rave about my boss, and I would
17:29
complain about that. And then I'd flip on the
17:30
television and I'd be so mad about politics.
17:33
I'd be screaming at the TV screen.
17:35
And then I'd relax into my recliner and I'd be watching the
17:38
game and my team was losing. And so I'm screaming at the TV
17:40
screen about a professional sporting event or something.
17:44
So all my experience that my family gets with me is this
17:47
tyrant, you know, just kind of stomping through the world, like
17:50
this is my world and you're just living in it.
17:52
And even when I'm not aggressive toward them, the anxiety in the
17:55
household goes up and just everything thing is
17:58
uncomfortable. A great measure of whether kids
18:01
feel safe or not, kids feel comfortable in their own house
18:04
is whether they spend any time in the common areas or not.
18:07
And at this point, my kids were on their rooms behind closed
18:09
doors because the less time they could spend with me, the better.
18:12
And all the while, I've never criticized them, I've never
18:16
yelled at them, I've never punished them.
18:17
So I think I'm golden. I think I'm God's gift to
18:20
fatherhood, right? And so, Yep, it's a big
18:23
transition that we men have to make.
18:25
When we talk about the work is on the men's side to become
18:29
emotionally masculine, we have to change everything.
18:32
We've been taught everything we've known, everything we've
18:34
picked up from the generations before us.
18:36
In addition to that lead, provide and protect, there's a
18:39
few other points to emotional masculinity that I think are
18:41
really important. I think it's important that we
18:43
be of service, being in relationship, being in family.
18:47
It's not about score keeping or what about ISM, It's about
18:51
providing more than maybe maybe I take out from the
18:54
relationship. And that's hard for a lot of men
18:56
to do. Like we're competitive, right?
18:58
And we, you know, oh, I did this for my wife, but what did she do
19:02
for me? We've got to lose that attitude.
19:04
We've got to want to be a provider of whatever services we
19:08
can. Accountability is huge.
19:10
And what I have found in working with people in relationships,
19:13
besides emotional safety, the thing that partners most want
19:17
from their partners is for them to take accountability when
19:20
something has gone wrong. And they don't even have to be
19:23
accountable, as in I'm going to own all the blame.
19:26
But accountability also means fixing the problem no matter who
19:29
is to blame. And so that's a big part of
19:32
emotional masculine is wanting to be part of the solution no
19:34
matter who caused the problem. And then resilience.
19:37
Amanda, I don't know what you see, but you talked about
19:39
generations and newer generations.
19:41
I think you're right. I think my kids are a lot more
19:44
in touch. My boy kids are a lot more in
19:46
touch with their emotions at their age than I was when I was
19:48
their age. That's great.
19:50
But what we are missing is the resilience to understand we just
19:54
got to have grit. I mean, things aren't going to
19:56
go well all the time. In fact, probably the majority
19:59
of the time we're going to be fighting an uphill battle and
20:01
having the grit to overcome anyway.
20:04
That's a really important part of masculinity and it can be
20:07
folded into this concept of. Emotional masculinity and it
20:11
fits. It's just seamless.
20:12
OK, you have me a grit 100%. I agree that I do think that's
20:17
missing and the resilience. Sometimes it feels like you're
20:20
fighting a losing battle, but that's also sometimes just life
20:24
and its perspective and it's wins and appreciating them.
20:28
You mentioned one of the first points you just made there is
20:30
putting in more than you're taking out, right?
20:33
And just putting that work and not keeping score.
20:36
Can you talk to me about what benefits can people expect to
20:40
see when they're doing this? Because even I understand and
20:43
think, well, how do you not get taken advantage of?
20:45
How is it equality if you're not keeping score?
20:48
So what are the benefits of like that balance of let me make sure
20:52
I'm putting in more? Yeah, I think equality in a
20:55
relationship is a myth. I think it's a false goal.
20:59
I think acknowledgement is more important.
21:02
So even though I am a huge proponent of this concept of
21:06
emotional masculinity, and I think that the advances of women
21:10
are the most important thing that's happened in my lifetime,
21:13
my wife and I still fall into some of the traditional gender
21:17
roles in our relationship. My wife likes to cook.
21:19
She went to culinary school like she really likes to cook and she
21:23
does all the cooking, right? I don't, I mean, I, I can make
21:25
eggs, I can boil pasta, but for the most part she does all the
21:29
cooking. And, you know, I do the yard
21:31
work and she tends the garden with the flowers, right?
21:36
So we still do some of that, but I don't sit down and try to see
21:42
if the work that she is doing, whether it's work at home or
21:45
work outside the home, the kind of work that you earn a paycheck
21:48
for, I don't try to equate those two.
21:50
What I try to do is acknowledge where she's putting in a lot and
21:55
she does the same for me. So rather than working toward
21:59
equality, it's all about the acknowledgement.
22:02
So we parent differently. This is maybe a really good
22:05
example. I really think my kids are teens
22:08
and 20s. I really think that my job as a
22:11
father is to help them become independent, which is a lot more
22:15
hands off. My wife is a born nurturer.
22:18
You talked about masculinity and femininity.
22:21
The component of femininity that I spend a lot of time on and
22:25
talk a lot about is the nurturing component of
22:27
femininity. I think that is huge and needs
22:30
to be celebrated and honored. And so, like, it's snowing and
22:34
we live a mile from the high school.
22:36
I want them to walk in the snow and get themselves there.
22:39
Her Mama heart wants to drive home and so we have to negotiate
22:42
that. We have to find a balance.
22:43
I have to respect her nurturing instinct while at the same time
22:46
she respects my instinct to try to help them become independent.
22:50
And so the idea that we're going to be equal in a relationship,
22:53
it's just impossible. There are things she's going to
22:56
do that I don't even think are important, so I'm not going to
22:59
do those things at the same time.
23:01
On the flip side, I can get really locked in on a work
23:03
project and I can work round the clock on it.
23:06
And I don't expect my wife to do the same thing on her work
23:09
stuff, just to level up so she will acknowledge God, I can see
23:13
how hard you're working on this thing.
23:15
And I appreciate what you're doing for the family in that
23:18
regard. And I can turn around and say,
23:19
you know, I see that you cook all our meals and that you make
23:22
sure the kids are safe. Sometimes the existence of the
23:26
kids, you know, escapes my mind, I'm embarrassed to say, when I'm
23:29
locked in on something else. And you're making sure that
23:32
things are locked in. Now you have to be careful
23:35
though, with this, right? Because there's this whole
23:37
mental load concept. I can't just expect my wife to
23:40
take care of everything on the home front and then peace out.
23:44
I have to acknowledge that she's doing more.
23:46
I have to help where I can. I have to ask what she needs.
23:49
But the idea that we're going to sit down and score, keep and try
23:52
to make it equal, I think that's a false goal.
23:55
I don't think that works. OK, you are answering questions
23:58
before I even get to ask them, so I love that.
24:01
I did want to talk about mental load, right?
24:03
Because there is a lot of I don't have kids, I'm not
24:07
married. I do live with my partner.
24:09
That's life sort of easy mode, right, Because the mental load
24:12
is our individual lives that we don't have to think about each
24:15
other's. But that mental load piece of
24:17
you know, well, I want you to make a list for me of things to
24:20
do to help you. And the person with the higher
24:22
mental load is like, I don't even want to have to make a
24:24
list. Even without a quality.
24:26
How do you find a fairness in that?
24:28
Like is it acknowledging that there is a higher mental load?
24:30
How do you help without infantilizing yourself of like,
24:34
well I don't even know what to do if that makes sense.
24:37
It does. It's a ton of communication.
24:40
It's a ton of respect. It is absolutely.
24:42
I think that acknowledgement piece is huge.
24:44
The other thing that my wife and I do and that we promote with
24:47
folks that we work with is this idea of resentment processing.
24:51
Resentment processing can be something that you do when
24:54
you're coming back from a big trauma.
24:56
Resentment processing means, let's say my wife has a
24:59
resentment that she wants to share with me.
25:02
I need to be a good listener. I need to not try to deflect it.
25:05
I need to not try to explain it away.
25:07
I can't. DARVO, which I'm sure a lot of
25:10
your listeners are familiar with that concept, that acronym, but
25:13
it basically means, Oh yeah, you know, you're upset about this.
25:16
Well, listen to the thing I'm upset about.
25:17
Like there's no place for that Resentment processing is I'm
25:20
going to be a good listener. I'm going to validate your
25:23
experience. I may or may not apologize
25:25
depending on the circumstance, but I'm going to acknowledge
25:28
that that sounds hard. That can go for big traumas, but
25:31
it can also be that everyday little things.
25:34
My wife and I continue, even though our relationship is a
25:37
million times better than it was when I was drinking or when I
25:40
was in early sobriety and we had a ton of work to do, we still
25:43
resentment process every week. We spent some time saying, Hey,
25:46
what's something that's bothering you?
25:47
What happened this week that you didn't like?
25:49
And often it has to do with mental load or share of
25:53
responsibilities. You know, hey, I did XY and Z
25:57
and you didn't even notice. And that gives me an opportunity
25:59
to say, gosh, you're right. You know, I was so fixated on
26:02
this thing over here that I missed this big thing over here.
26:05
And so it's communication, it's acknowledgement, it's respect.
26:10
This sounds silly to me now, but Amanda, I can't tell you how
26:14
important it was for the viability and the success of my
26:17
relationship to realize that my wife and I are different people
26:22
and she's going to view things, whether it's kids or work or
26:26
social life or whatever, she's going to view them differently.
26:29
And my goal does not need to be to get her to see things my way.
26:32
My goal needs to be to respect her viewpoint.
26:35
And hopefully, if she'll respect mine and we can find a way to
26:39
coexist as a result, the values have to stay, you know, intact.
26:43
We have to value the same things, but we don't have to
26:46
walk through life adding up the score and making sure
26:49
everything's equal and making sure we do things the same.
26:52
We have to respect the individuality of each other.
26:54
OK, you just blew my mind on the proactively ask is a Kingster.
27:01
One of the big things that a lot of king people say is, oh, our
27:03
communication is so much better. And I always talk about it
27:05
because I'm like, that's because we asked for feedback after a
27:08
scene, after sex. We solicit feedback like what
27:12
could be better? What went well?
27:14
And I know people say that about doing that in your relationship,
27:17
you know, having a weekly check in, but to proactively look and
27:20
ask for, hey, what came up for you this week that we should
27:24
talk about where I can try better next week.
27:27
Like a lot of the stuff you said, so obvious, but I would
27:29
never have thought of it that way.
27:31
To just solicit that feedback weekly because that's how you
27:34
grow. And it gives space for that
27:37
resentment to not actually have to fester, but to be out and
27:41
well in the open. I can't tell you the degree to
27:43
which these weekly check insurance where you're allowing
27:46
your partner to be vulnerable. You're listening respectfully.
27:49
You're not telling them how they got it wrong.
27:51
You're not deflecting. You're validating.
27:54
That is tied directly to sex. And here's how I can be ready to
28:00
go. I can be excited about sex.
28:02
You know, if the wind changes directions, like I'm constantly,
28:06
you know, on the verge of arousal.
28:08
My wife, on the other hand, she needs a certain set of
28:10
circumstances to become aroused. And a big part of that is living
28:15
in an environment with emotional safety where she's not up on egg
28:19
shells, nervous system and activation mode, constantly
28:22
worried about the next thing that's going to come out of my
28:24
mouth or how I'm going to judge her.
28:25
I'm going to question this purchase or this decision or
28:29
tell her she's parenting wrong. If she can feel comfortable in
28:31
her own space, that's the emotional safety piece.
28:35
That's a great first step. The next piece is emotional
28:38
intimacy. If I want to have good, mutually
28:42
beneficial, mutually satisfactory physical intimacy,
28:46
sexual intimacy, I have to be emotionally intimate first.
28:50
I didn't know that for so many years.
28:52
And now I've learned it's not enough to put up with my wife
28:55
when she wants to talk about something, I have to initiate
28:58
the conversation. Sometimes I have to say, hey, I
29:00
can tell something's gotcha. Let's take a few minutes.
29:03
Let's sit down. Let's get a cup of coffee.
29:05
Let's sit down. You know, the kids are otherwise
29:07
occupied. The TV's off, the phones are
29:09
down, the computer's shut. Let's connect and hear what's
29:12
going on with you. And I got to look her in the
29:14
eyes and I got to validate her situation.
29:17
If I do all of those things, she is much more more attracted to
29:20
me and the intimacy piece, the sex piece just becomes not only
29:25
more available, but she's more eager and it's more mutually
29:29
beneficial. One of the pieces of research we
29:31
did was we found that in relationships where there was
29:36
emotional intimacy, the sexual satisfaction actually increased
29:39
40% in those relationships over relationships where emotional
29:43
intimacy was sporadic or non existent.
29:46
Isn't that a fascinating statistic?
29:48
It's so fascinating because I literally was just going to talk
29:51
to you about the idea. I'm trying to bring up like what
29:55
society has told us for so many years.
29:57
And I'm trying to think as a man who is aligned with the
30:01
masculinity version or even the manosphere.
30:03
I imagine the first argument is, well, why would I show her my
30:07
weakness? Because you hear the word
30:08
vulnerable, and sometimes that's synonymous with being weak or
30:13
the opposite of strong. But there's a huge benefit to it
30:16
like that you just scientifically have proven.
30:18
Well, and it goes back back to what we talked about, about the
30:21
changes for women. Listen, if you're living in
30:24
middle class America, most of us go through our days without
30:28
feeling a lot of fear about our physical well-being.
30:32
Our homes have locks on them. We're probably not spending all
30:36
night worried about a break in. We have some form of
30:39
transportation to work that's relatively safe.
30:41
Our work environments are safe. We aren't living in a cave
30:44
that's potentially under bear attack.
30:46
So the old school masculine, you know, I'm strong, I'm tough, I'm
30:51
a barrier between you and the outside world.
30:54
It just doesn't have a place anymore.
30:56
Women don't need or want that, but they still want to feel
30:59
safe. And it's heartbreaking.
31:01
Amanda, one of the biggest turning points in my life was
31:04
and when I realized I'm the most dangerous person in my wife's
31:08
life. She's not under threat of attack
31:11
when she goes out into the grocery store, when she goes to
31:13
work or when she goes to the kids school.
31:15
The only place she's in danger is when she comes home at night
31:19
and I'm stomping through the house exerting my dominance.
31:22
And it made me realize, Oh my God, I am the most dangerous man
31:25
of my wife's life. And so vulnerability is a huge
31:29
piece of allowing our partners to feel emotionally safe because
31:34
we reciprocate the things we experience, right?
31:37
If I yell and scream, it doesn't take long for my wife to be
31:40
yelling and screaming too. If I share something I'm
31:42
concerned about and it's deep and meaningful, and then I
31:46
reciprocate by being open to her expressing something that she's
31:50
really scared about on a kind of deep and emotional level, then
31:54
I've created the safe environment that is, it wasn't
31:57
part of the lexicon years ago or decades ago.
31:59
This is new. That's why as men, we have to
32:03
turn away from. Oh, I'll just double down on the
32:06
old way and that'll somehow make it better.
32:08
I don't understand the manosphere stuff.
32:10
We have to evolve, we have to change.
32:12
I have complained about the manosphere as a generality of
32:16
like what I don't like in society in general is oh,
32:21
something's not working in my life.
32:22
It has to be somebody elses fault.
32:25
And I'm not saying the minister even says that because I know
32:27
they're like go to the gym, be disciplined, buy cryptocurrency,
32:30
get rich. That's all on you.
32:32
But I do think the reaction is like, oh, the reason you can't
32:35
be a man right now is because it's harder today because women
32:38
are being XYZ. So this is how you assert
32:41
dominance in the world is what they're basically saying like a
32:44
battle from the start that your goal is to get there.
32:47
I don't know where I was really going with that necessarily, but
32:49
I think it's along the lines of you being the the most dangerous
32:52
person in your wife's life. I mean, statistically we know
32:55
that's true. Like if a woman is murdered and
32:59
you're not even saying that, but it's more likely to be her
33:02
domestic partner or someone known to her.
33:04
But there is so much going on in all of that.
33:07
And I'd like to talk a little bit about the dating phase
33:11
specifically because I think that that's an area where women
33:15
and men are lost today compared to 30 years ago.
33:19
Because to your point, it changed before you went to a bar
33:22
or you went out and met people through friends and your circle
33:25
was actually quite small. So you sort of met people who
33:28
were like you or new people like you.
33:30
And now it's all dating apps or a lot of dating apps and meeting
33:33
online. And when you go out and meet
33:36
someone, there's online arguments all the time.
33:38
But in person arguments like should the man pay?
33:40
Is that masculinity? How does this work?
33:43
Like in a starting to date, what does masculinity look like?
33:47
And what is an emotionally masculine man who's not toxic
33:50
look like in dating? What are they asking about?
33:53
How are they talking to women? Obviously the respect piece, but
33:56
how do you layer on top of that? It's a really interesting
33:59
question. We did a roundtable episode a
34:01
few months ago on the Intoxicated podcast with people
34:04
who were back out in the dating world after having a
34:08
relationship that went through a traumatic experience with
34:11
alcohol. Having had that dissolved and
34:13
they were back out there, I learned so much.
34:16
For one thing, men tend to, I think, be more performative.
34:20
I'm not saying there aren't women that put pictures of
34:23
themselves 10 years younger in a bikini.
34:25
I know that happens, but I think it tends to be the go to for men
34:29
because they don't know anything else about what to offer in the
34:33
way of substance. So the women that we interviewed
34:36
on this particular episode talked about when the dating
34:39
profile, when there's any part of your body that's exposed your
34:44
shirts off like you are an immediate lit swipe.
34:47
What is left is bad, right? You're an immediate swipe left.
34:50
If your shirt is off, if you're holding up a fish in any of your
34:53
pictures, you're an immediate swipe left because you're just
34:57
saying, look at me this performative side.
35:00
I don't want you to get to know the deeper, more meaningful
35:04
side. What we've just heard over and
35:06
over again from people who are dating is, again, just that
35:11
emotional safety piece. If you are on the first date,
35:14
able to have a vulnerable conversation where you're
35:17
listening but also contributing about your wants and needs,
35:21
about your experiences in your family of origin.
35:25
You know, nobody wants to go on a date with someone who's
35:27
bitching about the person they just got divorced from.
35:29
So I'm not suggesting that that's where you go, but if you
35:32
can show some vulnerability and not be terrified when you're the
35:38
person sitting across the table from you does the same thing, I
35:41
think that's huge. The other thing I want to
35:43
mention, you know, as it relates to what we've been talking about
35:46
with the manosphere, and I think this applies to dating as well.
35:49
It's really important that we, I think to be successful as
35:53
individuals and therefore to be able to carry our side of the
35:58
load in relationships to the greatest extent possible to stay
36:01
away from focusing on outcomes. The manosphere stuff is all
36:06
about outcomes. Get rich, you know, dominate
36:09
your relationship. You got to go to the gym so that
36:12
your physique looks a certain way.
36:14
That's all outcome based. What people really want in
36:17
relationships is someone who is embracing the experience and is
36:22
along for the ride and understands that things are
36:25
going to go well, but things are going to go badly as well.
36:28
And how you react to that is way more important than what the
36:31
ultimate outcome is. So people who have of the
36:34
ability to embrace the moment, be in the moment, experience the
36:39
moment, that it applies to dating too.
36:41
If I can sit across the table for someone and be genuinely
36:44
interested in who the person is, whether I have a second date or
36:47
not, whether I marry this person ultimately or not, I'm just
36:50
engaged in the conversation and not focused on, oh, I've got to
36:53
find a partner. This has got to be the one.
36:56
It's just a lot more attractive to people to find that level of
36:59
authenticity and genuineness. I love that not to focus on the
37:03
outcome as someone who not to the extent of the manosphere or
37:06
anything, but I think I can be very goal oriented and outcome
37:10
focused. Like what is going to happen
37:13
here, like fearful of wasting my time is actually how I would
37:17
describe it. So I think that's good advice
37:18
for everyone. Don't be so outcome focused and
37:21
enjoy the journey. I want to talk.
37:23
We have a few minutes left here about obviously this is a kink
37:26
podcast, right? And there is an idea out there
37:30
in the world and I speak to women about this all the time.
37:32
We feel we're betraying our feminist side by being
37:36
submissive in the bedroom and being in these BDSM dynamics.
37:41
Have you ever encountered any dynamics like this with the
37:43
people you've worked with and trying to balance the bedroom
37:46
fantasy life and allowing yourself to indulge in this
37:50
versus who you are in the world and staying true to your
37:53
feminism side. The thing I admire most about
37:56
the kink community is the way you handle consent.
37:59
I think it is an absolute abomination.
38:02
People when they're younger, when they're newly exploring
38:06
sexual relationships, maybe late teens, early 20's.
38:10
The way we handle consent in those relationships is whether
38:13
or not one of the people in the relationship stops the other
38:17
person from advancing with absolutely no verbal
38:20
communications. So just to make this more
38:22
concrete, if I'm on a date with a girl and I try to reach under
38:26
her bra, does she grab my wrist and pull it down or not?
38:29
That's consent. There's no upfront
38:32
communication. There's nothing documented or
38:35
even verbally documented. It's all about is there
38:38
resistance or not? And if there's not, I guess that
38:40
means it's okay. And so we move forward with
38:44
these really fraught dynamics, right?
38:46
Where potentially as the man in the relationship, I'm opening
38:50
myself up for being accused of something, misreading a
38:53
situation, being accused of sexual assault.
38:56
And as the person on the receiving end of the
38:58
advancement, I might be traumatized emotionally,
39:02
mentally, because it went further than I wanted it to go.
39:06
So I have so much admiration for the consent in the community.
39:09
And I think as long as there is that level of communication and
39:15
very clear consent, then whoever wants to be submissive and
39:20
whoever wants to be more dominant, it's fine.
39:22
I think it applies way outside of kink culture that we have to
39:27
do the unromantic communicating so that the romantic stuff can
39:33
be so fulfilling. My wife and I talk about what we
39:36
want. We want very different things.
39:37
Our libidos are couldn't be further apart and so we have to
39:42
negotiate basically everything and we do so lovingly.
39:46
She understands my high sex drive.
39:49
I understand her low sex drive and we talk about it and we talk
39:53
about sex every single night. Can you believe that, Amanda?
39:56
We talk about what we want every single night.
39:58
And often it's actually gotten to the point where she's telling
40:02
me what she thinks I want based on, you know, the way my
40:05
mannerisms are. And I'm telling her, I think
40:08
this is what you want based on what I'm seeing from her and.
40:11
When we tell people that they're like, doesn't that kill the
40:13
mood? Like, no, it makes room for the
40:16
mood. If you're not talking, if you're
40:17
not communicating, how can you possibly maneuver successfully
40:21
in a sexual relationship? I'm like practically jumping out
40:23
of my seat because I understand the thought that oh, doesn't
40:27
that ruin the mood? But from my work, what I've
40:29
seen, it is one of people's number one core sexual desires
40:33
is to be seen. And what you're actually saying
40:36
is this is me seeing you right now.
40:38
And maybe you don't get it right all the time, but at least you
40:41
are also trying to see the person.
40:43
I cannot imagine anything that would be more of a turn on.
40:47
Like I am literally chills. Like how have I never thought of
40:50
that? I love that you came upon that.
40:52
I think that is something I want to try and pay attention to and
40:56
do with my partner. OK Matt, we are at time, but
41:00
this has been a phenomenal talk and I just want to tell everyone
41:04
I will be a guest on Matt's podcast Intoxicated.
41:08
So I've definitely head over, listen to other episodes, but
41:12
definitely check out our episode as well.
41:13
I am so looking forward to it, Matt.
41:15
And I guess if if you could leave us with any parting words
41:18
of advice for anyone who's really struggling right now with
41:21
their own identity and where they fit, especially in the
41:24
world of masculinity and being accepted but also being
41:28
vulnerable. Think about what happens at the
41:30
end of our lives, right? We don't think about the days we
41:34
spent at the gym. We don't think about the amount
41:36
of money we make. We don't think about career
41:38
success. We think about the people that
41:40
we love and we wish we had more time with those people.
41:44
And so those are very authentic, genuine feelings to have.
41:50
Be yourself, get connected with yourself, be true to yourself,
41:54
and then go out there and be of service.
41:57
And whatever is supposed to happen romantically will happen
42:00
because someone who is of service to others is far more
42:04
attractive to potential partners than someone who isolates in the
42:08
gym and all they care about is is the performative side of
42:12
things. Don't tie yourself to outcome.
42:15
Tie yourself to love genuine authenticity and things will
42:18
work out the way they're supposed to, whatever that
42:20
means. Love it.
42:21
This has been such a pleasure, Matt.
42:23
Thank you so much for coming on and going deep into these topics
42:26
with me. I loved your insight, so much of
42:28
what you had to say, and I look forward to continuing our
42:31
conversation in one way or another on your podcast.
42:34
Sounds great. Amanda, thank you very much for
42:36
the opportunity to talk about emotional masculinity.
42:39
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave
42:41
a review and share it with anyone who might find it
42:43
interesting. And if you have any questions or
42:45
topics you'd like me to cover in future episodes, feel free to
42:48
reach out e-mail info@thekingconsultant.com.
42:52
Until next time, keep on kinking on.