Latest / The Daily Writer / Handling Objections and Closing the Sale | Phil Whitebloom

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Handling Objections and Closing the Sale | Phil Whitebloom · The Daily Writer

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an author and ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for joining me for this episode of our Summer Expert series.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've got to ask you something.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: What label would you use to describe what you do?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Would it be writer, editor, designer, author, creative, artist, ghostwriter, publisher, entrepreneur, or maybe something else?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Those are all the terms I could think of off the top of my head.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you would add something else in there.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, most of us, I think, would gravitate toward one or more of those terms, but the interesting thing is that I've never heard anybody in the writing and publishing world use the term sales professional or perhaps salesperson to describe what they do.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Which is honestly a bit funny because if you think about it, if you have a business, you are definitely in sales.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I'm so excited to feature this conversation with Phil Whitebloom, who is here to help us handle objections better and close more sales, no matter how you make your living as a writer.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Phil has been a sales professional for more than 40 years.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: His employers and customers have included Sony, the White House, the Department of Defense, NASA, professional sports teams, universities, Fortune 500 companies, communication giants, small and medium-sized businesses, and startups.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: So as you can see, Phil has an incredible breadth of experiences working in industries and company sizes of all kinds.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Phil is also the co-host of the excellent Been There Sold That podcast with Brianna Hindley.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've gotten to know Phil over the last couple of years since we both have been members of Honorary Quarter's Empire Builders Mastermind.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And during that time, I've come to know Phil not only as a great conversationalist and consummate expert in sales, but also as a genuinely kind and thoughtful human being as well, which is perhaps the highest compliment that really you could give anybody.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in today's conversation, we dive into some themes from Phil's excellent book, which I highly recommend that you grab.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the book is titled Handling Objections: Clues for Closing the Sale.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: On this episode, you'll learn how to start embracing the idea of selling by shifting your mindset, how to address some common objections to pricing, lots of practical tips on sales, and much, much more.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I guarantee you're going to want to grab a pen and paper to take a lot of notes because Phil is such a wealth of knowledge when it comes to sales and business.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: You can find out more about Phil's book, Handling Objections, his podcast, and also his services by going to his website, which is beenthercs.com.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: The CS stands for consulting services.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's binTheircs.com.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And with that, here's our conversation.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Phil, so glad to have you on the show today.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm was just saying before I hit record that I have not had anybody on the show recently that I can think of to really help us out with this issue of dealing with objections, how to close sales, that whole process.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of our listeners are in that exact process where they're doing client work.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for being on the show today.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate uh you making time to do this.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm excited to be here.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't any effort to make the time.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I prioritized everything else around this.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So uh gosh, I think I'm really happy to be here.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, and thanks for having me.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm working from uh not working from your book, but I've got your book in front of me called Handling Objections Clues for Closing the Sale, which is a fantastic title, by the way, and a fantastic book.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's short and sweet, it's not too long.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I just love the fact that you've put this out into the world, but I kind of want to start here.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes when you listen to a podcast interview, people jump right in and they don't really give any context for who the guest is or how they came to be in their present position, that kind of stuff.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious if you can walk us through a little bit your experience with sales.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what was your business journey that led you up to your current point?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because I consider you an expert on this topic, but I've never really had a conversation with you about how you arrived in this place.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Which we're gonna come back to that point that you just made.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's really important that before we end our our interview podcast today, that you come back to that point.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because it's really relevant.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So uh everybody, that's how we get you to hang in on the podcast.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can't love it.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: You'll miss the you'll miss the the the whole thing right at the end there.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did I get here?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: My first job out of college, I got a sales job, a professional sales job selling office equipment, specifically dictation equipment.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it was a really intense, tough job.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, to give you all a reference, it was in 1980.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been in this field and always in this field, now for 46 years.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um and so I was highly trained because it was such a competitive place in what I was doing.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I started there and um I learned a lot.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I got stepped out a lot.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I stepped out a lot of other people a lot, and um, but I moved right through, and um I went from there to another sales job uh with a company called um NCR, which is was National Cash Register back then, is still in business today.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: They turned 100 years old when I was there and went on to I got recruited by Sony though in 1986.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's and um say I had a call from a recruiter and they said, Hey, Phil, have you ever heard of a company called Sony?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, Sony was a much smaller company then.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was 60 billion dollars when I left, nowhere anywhere in that range.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't even see that number from where it was when I started.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I started there as a salesperson.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, when I retired from there 23 years later, I was vice president of sales for Sony's non-consumer businesses.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So their government business, Fortune 500 type companies, Fortune 100, uh Houses of Worship, sports, um, all kinds of um all kinds of higher education was the was a was a big push that I was responsible for.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was all kinds of products.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was um product agnostic, but it was a lot of the products that you don't see, you don't get at Best Buy or places like that.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: These were in the professional um broadcast and uh professional video marketplace.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that was it.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then I retired from there in um in 2009, right in the heart of the recession, as I really kicked off the big financial crisis.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I got a job um immediately with one of my customers who um um had never had a professional sales manager before.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I was vice president of sales and marketing for them for six years, and I met a CEO of another company I liked a lot, talked my way in there, and I was vice president of sales for them for four different sales, sales-related positions, and then went on to a couple more things.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh working setting up a French company's business in the United States, set up their U.S.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: operations, and um, then COVID came along and I had started this LLC called Been There Consulting Services, which is the name of my company today.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just had that and I took uh contract work with a company that uh they couldn't get into the United States because of COVID.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody was locked out, nobody was coming in.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they had nobody in the United States that actually represented the company.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I became their vice president here in the United States and ran the US stuff until my contract ran out.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: I chose not to, and I was done completely with the corporate world at that point, and I just retired.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, that retirement just lasted a few months because I was looking for something to do to keep my brain active.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, I've been doing sales for a long time.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't I go help others?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I just started doing that, not really thinking it was a business, I just set it up as a business, but just to kind of do it, and it turned into a business.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I got two clients just in introducing myself, and I had no website, I had nothing.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, Oh my god, I gotta build a business.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And here we are, two and a half years later, as of this recording, and with all the stuff going on.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a retirement failure, if you want to write into it.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I retired and totally failed at it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then you and I met during this process over the last couple of years.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which has been really fun.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're both um, and I will I will have noted this in the introduction as people are listening to this later.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: I will have noted that we connected via Honore Corter's Empire Builder's Mastermind, which is uh I'm in my fourth year for it.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I anticipate being back for my fifth year.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably a record of some kind.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think anybody else has had anybody else has been in this group for that long.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes it takes people like me a little bit, you know, I'm a little bit slower sometimes on the uptake with with business things because I don't come from the business world.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's dive into uh and thanks for sharing your story, by the way.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: That really helps set some context because you've you've seen it all and and heard it all and done it all in sales.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so you didn't talk about any of the applications or anything, that'd be a whole nother story, but I almost never do.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you know I got lots of stories for everything, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're bringing a wealth of knowledge to this, and so our audience is primarily writers.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is a writing podcast, so I would be shocked if anybody is listening to this right now who is not interested in writing on some level.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: People are at different parts of their journey.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are doing client work, some people are working on their first nonfiction book, some people are kind of lurking in the shadows, thinking, Do I want to get into this whole writing and book and publishing deal?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: But for those specifically who are doing client work, they have to sell.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, selling is part of the process.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I have noticed over the years, as I have worked with a lot of writers, is that a lot of writers and creative types don't really see themselves as quote unquote salespeople.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if you are doing any kind of client work, you have to sell.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, do you have some thoughts for people who are more creatively wired?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And not that salespeople are not creatively wired, but people who see themselves more as artists, writers, creative types who aren't really selling, they just kind of want to do the work.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is they really need to sell.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um what are some maybe tips, quick tips that you could share with people like that to help them understand they've got to shift their mindset and that selling is a really critical and potentially a really fun part of the process?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know that was a good idea.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'd like to um ask you a few questions.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's do it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you're in writer services and in a broad and generic way, you're you do what other people in writer services do.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you have a tighter niche in some areas or they have a different one, or it's broad-based, but you're right there with them.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna represent this community.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, Ken.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: First, why do you do writer services?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what is it that really motivates you to do writer services?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: What makes you say, I'm a good person because I do writer services?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a couple of reasons, and I I will hone in on ghostwriting specifically.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's what I do for writer services, but I think this would this would apply in different ways to other things too.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: For me, there's a few reasons why I enjoy ghostwriting as part of my business.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, it connects me with really smart people and it gets me in conversations with them.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I learned a ton just this morning.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I had a client call with somebody whose book I'm working on.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: She is the CEO of a nonprofit organization in a different part of the country.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: She has like hundreds of employees.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: They do really, really important work on mental health.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I love talking with her, and I've learned a ton from her book already.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So connecting with high-level people makes me a better person, makes me smarter.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, number two, I get to use my writing skills, which is my main marketable skill.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Number three, I get to act in a support role to those VIPs, you know, what in whatever field they are.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I love doing that.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I am naturally wired as a really great support person.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I also have things in my business where I am out front and I'm in the spotlight, but there's something to me that's very emotionally satisfying about putting together something that's a really great asset for somebody else.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say those are probably the main things.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna name your client Judy, okay, because you can't disclose your clients.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is that in my book and in everything that I write, I bring my friends Frank and Judy in who are my fictitious characters that help me out in the books, you know, especially when I need to keep the names uh to protect the innocent out of there and other things.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: But so we're gonna name your client Judy, who you were just referencing, right?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's do it.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So Judy's got something that she wants to share with the world, and she's got a book that she's wants created, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a so how are you so first, what is motivating Judy to write her book?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just just in a few seconds, not uh you know, not a big long thing here, yeah.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Just a few seconds.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So Judy has this is this is the case with almost every client I work with, by the way.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same story.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Judy has tried to write her book herself, she has a message she feels very strongly about.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: People have encouraged her to write over the years, but she's gotten stuck, she doesn't have the time or the skill set or the patience to do it herself.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so but Judy wants to get this thing out, and it's really important to Judy to get this out, right?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, and Judy's got a mission for her book, exactly, right?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And what would you say without disclosing anything that you shouldn't disclose?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: What is the mission of Judy's?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Why is she doing this?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: What is her mission for her book, for herself?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So her she's an interesting case because her personal story is is perfectly aligned with what the mission of her organization is.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, she's not somebody who just took this random job.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Her mission in life and the things she wants to help people with uh is really the same thing as her organization, which is why she's been there so long, and she's literally had 10x growth over, let's say, 15 or so years that she's been the CEO.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, she has a very clear-cut mission.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: She feels very strategic and emotional about it.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, Kent, so you are helping Judy.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: You met Judy, you were introduced to Judy, however it was, you you're with Judy, and Judy's been struggling to get this book out, and Judy wants to get this book out.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: She has a need to get a book out, you know, it's both a want and a need and a desire to get it all done, but she hasn't been able to do it, and it's not because she doesn't have the money, and it's not because of those things, it's because she doesn't even have the skills, she doesn't have the time, she doesn't have all of the above and all these other things.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: But Judy wants to get this book out, and then here comes Kent Sanders.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So now what do you do, Kent?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You are helping Judy to accomplish something that's a life dream of hers in order to bring her to the next level and get her story out and all these other things, and all the good things that come with it, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you are enabling Judy to do something that she was not able to do without you.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a safe statement, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, 100%.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're meeting somebody else that's similar to Judy, although the specifics will be different, right?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: You have something to offer to that person.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say it's Frank, right?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've talked about Frank and Judy, right?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So Frank comes along, and Frank's talking about this, and you're talking to Frank and you're finding out about Frank.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and um, and now you're going, bow the way, let me tell you a story about Judy.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And here's Judy.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and so when you say when you hear this, you know, tell me what you like about the story.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, Kent, tell me what you like about our conversation so far, yours and mine, just the one we're having right now.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: I like it that you have turned the tables on a typical podcast interview and you're asking me some questions.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, this is fun because I'm not sure where all this is going.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: I like things that are a little unpredictable.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, plus, you're just easy to talk to, and you obviously have a goal in mind with where you're taking this conversation.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not exactly sure where it is, but I'm really interested in intrigued.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I want everybody who's listening to watch what's going on here.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: You want to know.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, our your mission, Kent, with me, is to help your listeners to be better salespeople so they could sell their services, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they could achieve their goals and everything else, but they have a hesitancy to start sales, they're afraid of sales, sales has a bad connotation, all these other things, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: That go along.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: But in reality, why do you do what you do?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: You do it to help people for sure, and that's why you are there, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: What am I doing?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am helping you all everything that's just happened here, Kent, is that this is exactly how I meet people and exactly how I get clients, and I ask them questions.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So here we are.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, where's all this thing going?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Pay, watch what just happened and listen to what just happened here.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is that I ask you a bunch of questions about why you do things and everything else like that, in order to help you.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when you go talk to somebody, you're gonna ask them, tell me about your story.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to do?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, at the beginning of this, you said you didn't know anything about me, my background, and everything, and yet we've known each other for two years.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know, isn't that crazy?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not because it's how everybody is.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you go ask my clients, your listeners now know more about my background than my clients do.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a joke.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when they talk about you know why?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't talk about it.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know why?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because they don't care about me.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Who do they care about?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: The people you talked about, your Judy in this case.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Judy cares about Judy.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Judy doesn't care about Kent.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean she wants bad things to happen to Kent.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that sound like George from uh Seinfeld, right?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: George is getting happy.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but the uh Judy cares about Judy.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Judy's got a problem, Kent's there to fix the problem, and you are focused on Judy.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is Judy gonna go look for another ghostwriter after you've just asked her all these questions and you've found out all about this stuff?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Judy's gonna get to the point when you're all done here, and this is where this whole thing's going.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And Judy's gonna say, Kent, what do we have to do to get started?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have to ask for that order?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Did you do anything?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, most of my clients, I don't ask them for the order.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're usually asking me, when do we get started?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do we start and everything else like that?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because all I've done the entire time is ask them high impact questions.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's about asking so when you are going to sell when you find somebody, not everybody's a prospect for you to be a ghostwriter for them or for the other services that other people in the in the writing area, writing services area, offer.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're not everybody's a client, and and it could be for a whole number of reasons.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, you have to want to work with those people too, because there's not enough money in the world and uh to to have a bad client, right?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And there could be bad clients that have lots of money and they paid you, and you thought this is great, and then you're sorry every single day that you took that client on, regardless of how much money you just made.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, especially if you are going through a dry spell, and we've all been there, and you give somebody a discount, or somehow you don't charge them what you feel like you should have charged, and then you're stuck with that person that's miserable.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So all you're doing is asking questions.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So here's where I was going with this whole thing.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I now know about Judy.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know Judy's why she's doing it, and Judy can't do this, and here you are to help.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So then you've you've now you've learned all this from Judy.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then you say, So, Judy, let me ask you a question.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: If if you were to just hypothetically, if you were just to hire a ghost for, let's say you were to hire me, what would you want me to do for you?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then you know what you do, Kent?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: You shut up.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, everybody, I am telling you to shut up.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not telling you to be quiet, I'm not telling you to listen.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you to shut up.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know why?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because you will remember Phil saying, Shut up.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: You won't remember Phil saying, be quiet and listen.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean it.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let them talk.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's no matter how excited you are that you could help them, stay quiet, let them go.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you keep asking the questions and find out what's behind each question till you get to their ultimate buying mode of the ultimate reason they want to do this, because that's the close.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So when you go through this and you're saying, Wow, that's really interesting, tell me more.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then you shut up, and you say, So if I understand correctly that, did I hear that right?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: That was the first yes or no question you've heard me say the entire interview.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll say, Well, yeah, say, Well, great.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And why is that the most important thing?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Boom.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, if you were to hire me, what would you want me to do for you?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: The moment they answer that question, you are on the path to having a client because that was called a trial close.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And a trial close is when you are asking a closing type question, but you're not asking for the order.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because they could have come back and said, Hey, I'm not ready to even think about a ghostwriter at this point.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: You say, Great, I wasn't asking you for an order.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I said, But I was just curious as to what is so there's obviously something that you haven't picked up on, or that I have, but we're saying there's not let me rephrase that.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's obviously something that I have not shared with you or I did not understand.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it seemed to me like you you were almost a perfect um candidate for a ghostwriter.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: May I ask what that is?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then you shut up.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then they will tell you.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, here's not everybody's a client.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I went through, I practice what I preach here, and I was at a networking meeting where you're talking with other people, and and I gave somebody my quick story and I said, What did you, you know, what resonated with you?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: What did you like about it?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: And she looked at me and I had all these people standing around.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: She looked right at me and she said, The truth is absolutely nothing.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I laughed out loud and I said, I really appreciate your honesty.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's obviously nothing we could do together.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Have a good rest of your evening.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I walked away, and the whole crowd walked away with me.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like horrified, and I thought it was great.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Why wouldn't you want that answer?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that you jump up and down.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it was the best answer in the world because I share this story all the time because it really happened.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality was immediately I knew that was not a client potential, nor could I help her because I didn't even, I didn't like her attitude and she didn't care for me.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there wasn't a match.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why would I pursue that?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: What would have I gained if I pushed my way into getting an appointment with her or just kept pushing for the next 20 minutes when I could be talking to five other people in the meantime, right?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So boom.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when you find these things out, this is what you've done.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: But now when you when you've got this, you've built this trust, but yet how much have you presented about what you do as a ghostwriter, Kent, to this point?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not very much.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: You haven't done anything, you haven't said a thing.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: All you've talked about is how you help somebody else in a similar situation and that you are positioned to help them.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they say, Could you share some more details?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: you could say yes.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: I can.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you only talk about the details that are relevant to what was important to that person, in this case, Judy.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: All the other stuff is unimportant.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever been called on by an insurance agent, Kent?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever had a meeting with somebody trying to sell you insurance or financial services?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: So almost everybody has, and what they'll and then you say, What was the you know, what drives you crazy?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if you get right down to it, once they figure out what you're asking for, is that they generally go through all the things that are in their policy.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And in an auto policy, let's say an automobile policy, car insurance, what do most people really care about?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: They care about how much does it cost and how much am I covered for what's my deductible?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: All the other things is Charlie Brown's teacher.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wam, wam, woman, wam, whama.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you're selling life insurance, well, there's a lot more to it.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if they've done their interview questions properly, they know what's important to that client.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then, but so many of them, what they do is they go on and they show the other hundred features that and and and supposed benefits that their policy has for this person.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: But guess what?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: None of that was important to them because they would have brought it up because it's not about the features, it's about why they want it and why they feel they need it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when the people that are ready to close on that, you could they they just talk themselves right past the sale because they're not focused on their client.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And what do they do with the first thing?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: They tell how long their insurance company's been in business, how great they are, you know, they do all these things, everything else like that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: What does that person care about?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're self-do they care about how long the insurance company's been in business.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: If they do, they'll ask, right?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: So my point here is when what you're doing, you just did the same thing.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you are focused totally on Judy Kent.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're focused totally on Judy.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're finding out what's important to Judy, and you know what Judy's gonna come around and say, Judy's gonna come and say, Kent, so what's this gonna cost me to hire you?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then you tell.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to dance around it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know what your costs are, so just say it and say it with conviction and say it with pride, and they may come back and say, Yes.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: They may just say yes.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: You what are you gonna do then?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna be shocked.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna you stop talking and you take the order, right?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you do.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: They may say, Wow, that's a lot more than I was thinking.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what do people do then right away, Kent?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think they get defensive?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: They sometimes they do.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I asked or they ask a disc to offer a discount.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, well, so here's an interesting story.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, this client that I met with this morning, Judy, obviously not her real name, when we were talking a few months ago, we'd have been talking for for probably almost a year actually, just sort of on and off.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes ghostwriting clients, it's very expensive, so it takes a while for people to make that decision sometimes.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this morning, I asked her on at the end of a content call.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I'm just caring kind of curious.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you when we were talking about pricing, you know, you had a certain budget in mind, and I quoted you a a higher price that was basically basically 50% 50% more than what she had had in mind.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, and she had to think about it a little bit.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Why was it that you still went with me, even though you had to adjust your budget for that?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And she basically said, you know, I really respect it whenever people stick to their boundaries, they know what they're worth.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I did not want to try and talk you down on your price because then you maybe would have been a little resentful in the whole process and you really wouldn't have wanted to do as good of a job.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was surprised by her answer because it because it confirmed to me that the right clients will respect your pricing and your boundaries.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not a good fit, but I she loved the fact that I just said this is my rate, and she was able to adjust some other things in her in her budget to accommodate that.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that really surprised me.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you do that happened kind because you earned her trust, you earned her respect and you earned her confidence.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: What's the word that I used here?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Earned.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: You earned it.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is not a gift from God.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody has to earn their respect, earn the people's respect, right?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody just walks in and magically has it, they've earned it somewhere along the way.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And even if it was a referral from somebody else, they they you got a referral from a trusted person of that person you're talking to, Judy.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how they got you.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they already had your respect because if Judy's friend respected you enough to refer you to her, then you you all you could do is lose respect by doing something wrong, right?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: But you didn't, you got it and everything else, and that's why you're there.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, how much talking did you do?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've done more talking here on this podcast interview than I would do in any kind of sales call because I'm always asking these questions.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're done and you're going through and they're like ready to get going, they're gonna tell you, and it could happen really fast, or it could go on for days and weeks and months or longer.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And whatever the complexity of that sales, but for you as writers, you know, one is you have a schedule, you don't have an infinite amount of time just to hand out to anybody who comes, you have to get a schedule in, it takes time to you do what you do, and so if you want to get in on Kent's calendar, then you have to make a decision to move forward or not.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and yeah, but you've done all this, so the process is for everybody who's out there, don't get out.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you, get out of your own heads.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard to do out of your heads and get into their heads.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Get into their heads, find out why your service is as valuable to them.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not valuable, they're not a client, and you're not telling them what the value is because it's arrogant for anybody to tell anybody else what your value is to them.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's what here's what I do and how I help others.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: How would that be valuable to you?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know how you find out?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Ask.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you say, how would that be valuable to you and why?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: That makes it a high impact question because now you're gonna find out what's behind that, their statement.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and um, and so when you're focused on them, you're not worried about selling because you're focused on them.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if they really believe you can help and everything else, and it and they can afford your price, then what's going on?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's all kinds of objections we could talk about and how to handle those, but once again, it comes right back down to questions and more questions and more questions, and then verification.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So in this case, everything that we're talking about here, Kent, is what I coach everybody and what I do every day for myself.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, for I'll ask you, representing the audience, what has resonated most with you in this?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Something you mentioned a second ago really jumped out at me.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it occurs to me that a lot of people who are in sales, now this includes writers who have services, editors, designers, whatever, ghostwriters, we all tend to want to jump to okay, how do I handle this objection or this objection?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: We all want to want to jump to the tactics of how to handle sales conversations, but something you said about confidence really resonated with me because it occurs to me that a lot of a lot of a lot of people in general, but particularly those who are doing writing services, tend to be more creative types who are by and large a little bit more introverted.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: They oftentimes don't come from a business or a sales background.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like me, I came from the worlds of church and ministry and academics.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, those are two fields which I never did any selling at all, basically.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I probably did, I just didn't realize I was doing it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it occurs to me that there is a there's a point at where you have to have confidence that you are worth what you're charging.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people who are doing services in the writing and publishing world, they lack that confidence in what they're doing.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's a good place to kind of pivot the conversation a little bit is how can somebody who maybe is a little bit more introverted, they don't come from a sales background, how can they start to build up that confidence in themselves to have to have more effective sales conversations and really show up being more assertive, more confident, knowing what they're worth, those kinds of things.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing is you have to get out there and talk to people.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it just doesn't happen because one day you make up your mind, you say I'm gonna do this on Tuesdays and Thursdays once each day.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's not you know, you've got to build confidence from finding out that first nothing bad's gonna happen.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And second, all that you might actually enjoy it because if you're focused on other people and what's interesting about other people, you're gonna be interested yourself.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, if you're not really interested, they're probably not a client for you, anyways, because it's hard to I would not want to have a ghostwriter writing for me that is totally not interested in what I had to say.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: How are they gonna ever represent me in my book that they're creating for me to represent me and they have no interest in the topic?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, or in me, that's a really tough thing.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's no way that sincerity could come across, and they could take my passion for what I do or for whatever whoever you're representing does, and then translate that into something that sounds like it came right from this break bowl.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it is a ghostwriter, otherwise, it would be just a writer, right?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: You would have your name right there, you know, like a newspaper uh uh correspondent.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Your name would be right there, you know, and but it's not, it's behind the scenes because everybody thinks it came from the person whose name is there.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so first thing is get out there, and the other thing is be curious, always be curious about the others.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about it, tell me your story.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me your story, and then tell me what's going on.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you and I have another common friend named Brianna, and uh Brianna's the one that ultimately introduced me to you through Henre, through everybody else, and everything else like that.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we hit it off by we met at a networking event, and then she said, Hey, Phil, you should write a book, and that's how it started.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, she was curious, and then I got introduced to Henre, and Henre asked a bunch of questions, and I didn't think that Hen Ray would, you know, why would she want to work with me?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: She works with famous people, who am I?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: And boom, and here we all are, because she was curious and she was confident, and she gets top dollar for what she does because she earned the right to get top dollar and continues to earn that right.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so she was sincerely interested, and she still is to this day, right?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, with you and all the writers that are out there, when you find people, ask questions, you know, be curious.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: And when you find out their stories, you're gonna ask them more.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: You say, Have you ever thought about writing a book about your what you do?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: What what yeah, oh, I've always wanted to write a book.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna say, Well, then you can say, Well, why haven't you?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they're gonna tell you why.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're not judging any of it, you're asking questions.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's the biggest thing.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Just be curious.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you could say that's interesting, and all and be sincere, by the way, when you say that, because otherwise it's flattery, and there's a big difference between flattery and sincerity.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: And flattery does not work, so you're gonna say, I'm sincere, you know, you're gonna say, you know, tell me more, and everything else like that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, how would you like to get that book out there and not have to worry about all this stuff that has prevented you from writing the book?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Cap, what do you mean?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is what somebody who does book services does.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: What did you just like about what I said?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna say, Well, you do this, you know, this.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what part of that did you like the best?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, why?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And why was that part more important than this part?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they're gonna answer these questions, right?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Have you told them anything about what you do, Kent?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're just asking nothing, and they're all buying in now because you're totally interested in them and you're finding out what their priorities are here, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you can say, so if I was to help you write your book, this is where we would start.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what I'm hearing?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and what would be next?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you were to change anything we talked about, what would you change?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, thank you very much.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: What did I never ask?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: What didn't you like?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: So here's another key, Kent, for you and your listeners.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: When when people say something, who do they, you know, what do the you know who hears them?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is they hear themselves, and people remember what they say out loud.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were asked them what don't you like about what I said, they're gonna remember that because you cued them up for it.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And people have a tendency, is why the news is the news, to remember bad things longer than good things and first, usually.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you never ask them a question that's gonna give them a negative.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: You say, What would you change?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: What would you like to enhance?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And as long as you could do that, you say, Oh, well, that's interesting.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you change it that way?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I guess so.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is what you really want.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what I'm hearing?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, okay, so well, great.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: You you are building your own plan.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is anybody gonna refuse their own plan?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I tell people this all the time.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is true.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: You are building your custom plan.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: I am just putting a price on it and telling you what it's gonna cost to get it done and how long.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you're building your plan.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is your plan.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: What do you like best about your plan?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna reject their own plan?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a competitor that's coming in and they just spit at them for all the services they'll give them and how great they are and all the people they wrote books for in the past, right?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is that competitor gonna take away from you when these people just created their own plan that you are simply the implementer of?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, they're gonna go with their own plan.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, once again, Ken, it comes back down to just asking these questions.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, how much do I know about you?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: How many, how many books do you have you written?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Who have you written books for?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: How could I tell?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: Who could I get a reference from?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Have you had to say any of that stuff?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, because if they're interested, they're gonna ask.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's surprising how I have been surprised the last number of years, since I've been doing this full time, at how how infrequently people ask about how many books have you written, who have you written books for, what's your experience?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I just always think, okay, if I were hiring a ghostwriter, I would be really interested in that.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm always surprised at how how insignificant that seems to be to most people who hire me.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've got to have a track record, obviously, of some kind.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, I show them one or two books if they think it's a decent writing style.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: That that's their the their main concern about as long as they know it's decent, then they're comfortable with it.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: What seems to be much more effective, it's exactly like what you're talking about, is the curiosity factor asking questions for a ghostwriter in particular, showing that you're empathetic, that you're a good listener, that you pay attention, that you can zone in and connect emotionally with somebody.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's absolutely massive because they're entrusting their story to you or their business framework or whatever it is.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love all the stuff you're emphasizing here.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to the conversation in just a minute, but I want to take a moment to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, Vellum.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: As a writer, you not only want to write great books, but you also want them to look professionally formatted and give your reader a great experience.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why for years my go-to choice for book formatting software has been Vellum.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Vellum gives you the power to build, style, and preview your book and have more fun than you ever thought possible while doing it.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: Vellum is the go-to choice for Mac users who care about creating beautiful ebooks and print books and they want to save tons of time in the process.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Best of all, you can download Vellum and play with your book's formatting to your heart's content, and you only have to purchase when you're ready to publish.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when you do, Vellum can create ebooks and print books for every platform.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: To download Vellum for free, visit trivellum.com slash Kent.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's trivellum.com slash Kent.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's get back to the conversation.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, Kent, with all that said and everything, I'm gonna ask you this kind of question.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, what what did you like best?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: How is this interview gonna help your listeners the most?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would say that's a good question.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: The number one thing if if I were if I were going to sort of whittle this down into maybe a few takeaways, what I'm hearing, and I'm I'm looking at this from the framework of people who don't have a sales background.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's people who are probably wired a little bit more creatively than business-y.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not even a word, but it is now, I guess.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: People who come from kind of a creative bent, I would say the importance of being curious, asking questions, listening, um, developing empathy with someone, uh helping them to develop basically you're helping the potential client develop their own plan by asking questions and then not not quote unquote selling, but just being curious and serving and building a rapport with people with people, not selling in the way that most people think of selling, which is here's the five things I do and here's what you should buy for me right now.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: That that's sort of that's most of my takeaways, I think.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And from the questions you asked me, I tried to ask them.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know I sometimes could elaborate a lot.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, was there something that I I completely missed your question because I didn't ask for clarification that I should cover now, or something that I should have been more clear about?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I do want to dive one no, nothing that you aren't clear about at all.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this has been a wonderful conversation, but I do want to specifically ask because a lot of people doing services run up against this issue.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's they have a price for whatever it is they do, and people say it's too expensive or I can get that done elsewhere cheaper.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: What are some really practical things you would suggest to somebody who is selling when the objection is specifically the price on this is too high and I can go somewhere else and get it cheaper?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, that is the most common objection of objection, right?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so the first thing is that you don't want to get defensive because it's a real concern.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna take this in two different places, okay?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna answer your question, then we're gonna come back around.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a common thing, we're gonna talk about that now, right after this part.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, first thing you're gonna want to do is you're gonna want to acknowledge the objection.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's a process.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, so I'm sharing all this stuff with you, but there's a process.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I, as a sales performance coach, that's what I do.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a sales performance coach.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And as a sales performance coach, I coach on these skills.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a sales trainer, I don't teach training classes, right?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so the um, so the first thing you want to do is acknowledge it.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: But don't just repeat back what you said.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, so I hear you that you could go buy this someplace else cheaper, right?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, in their heads are thinking, depending on their personality, they might be thinking, yeah, stupid, I just said that.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you saying it back to me?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're just aggravating me, right?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, but you want to acknowledge it that back and say you can say, I hear that, you know, price is important, investment's important.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: So remember, what you do is an investment for somebody.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: There is a return on what you do, whether it's helping them get more business for what they're doing, whether it's an emotional return, there's a return.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: And a return is an investment.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: A cost is buying toilet paper.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: It goes down the toilet, right?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's, you know, and uh you nobody looks at except for the people who make toilet paper.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as an investment, right?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing is that what you're doing is an investment.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you say price is important, don't beat around the bush and everything else like that.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so let just let me ask you a question.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: So what are you measuring against?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you respond to prices, it's too much money, compared to what?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you just say compared to what, then they're just gonna aggravate somebody because now you now you are fitting that stereotyped um salesperson, if you will.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but you say, so what are you measuring against?
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is and then you well, you might have to help them.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm usually against helping, but you might even need to help them with the answer.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: You say, are you have you talked to other ghostwriters?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, have you are are you um um have you have you done work with others in the past and it was a whole different cost structure?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what have you?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: And how many words is this we're talking about here?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because and what what what is it you're comparing to?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: And guess what?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna be frozen silent most of the time because they have no idea themselves.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it just over your budget?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like Judy, who we were talking about earlier, she had a budget, she shared her budget.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: This was over her budget, right?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: So is it different than your budget?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because what you're talking about now, in any case, if it's a real objection, because it could just be a smokescreen or what we call a red herring, um, a distraction from what the real objection is.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's a real objection, you're not talking about, let's just say it's a hundred dollars, just for easy math, right?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: Easy to reconvisualize a hundred dollars.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, well, yeah, because I was really expecting eighty dollars.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you're telling me it's a hundred.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: So now what you're dealing with is a twenty dollar difference.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're not dealing with a hundred dollars, not one, you're dealing with the incremental difference.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: So this so what we're talking about here then, Judy, is we're talking about a 20% or$20 in this case, incremental difference.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now all of a sudden it doesn't seem like such a big deal to Judy anymore, right?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right, or anybody else, because you know, if you're if you're buying a nickel pencil and somebody's selling it to you for a quarter, that's a hard thing to overcome.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: That pencil better be able to be, you know, right for you, right?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: If to pay, you know, five times the amount.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a breaking point.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: But what you're talking about is now let's go back and talk about what you wanted done and why you want it done and why you haven't done this before.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because you could go anywhere and find somebody at whatever price to do to write your book.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: But here, you're still here talking to me.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you talking to me?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then you shut up.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what do you like best about this?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: You could go get the services for$80, but you will you be confident that that$80 is gonna give you what you want?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because if if your book misrepresents you, it's gonna have 180 degrees the effect that you in the negative of what you wanted to have happen.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Your twenty dollars or twenty percent savings that you just gave yourself out of your checkbook has just cost you your entire reputation.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: All because of$20.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do I do?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: I give you value that's worth at a minimum your$20 difference and you and way more because of the expertise and the value of my services.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's why that is now what did you like about what I just shared with you?
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Ken, what did you like about that response?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I love that because again, it's it's driven by curiosity and you're reframing the$20 difference as something that is not that big of a deal, you know, because you're comparing it against the value that you're bringing, you know, versus maybe somebody who's cheaper or not as skilled or or whatever.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: So no, I I love the way you're thinking about that.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'd never saw I'd never considered that direction before.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: But now, if this objection comes up all the time or the majority of the time, coming up once out of 90 times is not all the time or majority, okay?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we are not the United States government, we don't have to overreact every time a single thing happens, right?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a single thing, right?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: So what we say is, but if it's a common thing and price objections are a common thing in so many businesses and so many professions, so if this comes up a lot because you are at the upper end, remember in business, you either want to be at the high end or the low end.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to be the guy in the middle.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: And ladies, I call everybody a guy, even my dogs are everybody's a guy.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so you don't want to be in the middle because the people in the middle always lose.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: The high end wins and the low end wins.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: So high end is much more profitable for and you got to provide service to earn that.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: But nevertheless, that's right.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a cut, it's called a commonly raised objection, then.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what do you do with a commonly raised objection?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: You handle it before it becomes becomes up as an objection.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because if somebody's thinking about the price and you are uh and you're a ghostwriter or have other writing services that you provide, and you're talking about that, you know what's on their head their whole time if they're worried about price or thinking about it?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: The price.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Are they hearing what you're talking about?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are they even hearing your questions?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hearing your own answers?
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not, because what are you worried about?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: The price.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: So take it off the table so you can start out.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Kent, my name's Phil.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a sales coach.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to let you know right now, right up front here, that if you should choose that you want to work with me, I am gonna be far from the lowest price person out there that will present themselves as a service provider to help you grow your sales.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to let you know about that.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: So let me ask you your priorities for what you're looking for, what are your priorities in what you're looking for?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now you don't have to go into all that, Ken, because I know we're running out of time, but we're getting low.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what are your priorities?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna share your priorities.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: And of those priorities, where does price fall into that of all these things?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: If they say price is number one, you say it is.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Don't argue with them.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: You just ask the question.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: They gave you their answer.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Price is the number one thing.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then and you may just be enough to say, I am never gonna be the low price.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: Let's save both, let's save you some time right now.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wish you the best of success.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I wish you the best, and I truly do wish you the best of success, but I'm not gonna be able to match that price, meet that price, that low price.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: No matter how much we talk, I will never be there, and I'm not gonna try to get there.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: So good luck.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: They made the right person.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had somebody say once to me, say, Phil, but I want to work with you.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was just turning them away, and I wasn't playing a game, I was literally turning them away.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Well, I want to work with you.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, then this is what we have to do.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so there we were.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a pleasant surprise to me.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: That came out of their mouth.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't a prompter in any way, and that could happen.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing could say, Okay, and they're gonna be walk away being stunned a little bit because what just happened, but you just saved yourself a whole bunch of time.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you said all to come.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you want to go through an hour, two hour or longer meeting or meetings over days or weeks to find out that there's no way they're gonna pay your price?
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then now what have you just done?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: So just get it out of the way up front for both of you.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: But when they say this is the priority, they go, Great, boom.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: And why is it important?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: And great, well, then I'm the right person you should be talking to.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: We'll figure this out because I got to make sure that I could do what I need to do for you.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: I got a ton of questions to ask you, but I just want to let you know that this is what it's gonna be.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're good with that, let's go.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you may not have had a quote the exact price, but you should give them a range.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: You should say it's gonna cost you, you know, between whatever that number is.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm making this up, writers.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna cost you between 20 and 80,000 for me to do this for you or more, and um, and that depends on the number of words.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, because you evaluated last thing you did was 15,000 words.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this that book you're talking about is gonna be 55,000 words.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot more time and a lot more skill, and it is nowhere near comparing like products.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: What are your feelings on I don't know?
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: I actually have this situation right now where where uh this is uh a person I've known for many years, actually.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: They got in contact recently, and they said, Hey, we have a uh me and my wife, we have a life situation, and I'm gonna leave it purposefully big.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: We have a life situation we've been through, and we really really want to do a book about it.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now they don't have a platform or anything, they just want to tell their story.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: They know that I'm a ghostwriter, I've known them for a long time.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: They've known me since I they've actually known me since my college days, so we have a long, long history.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: I really like these people.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they want to get together and talk about what would it take for me to ghostwriter their book.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm I would be shocked if they would be in a place where they could afford professional ghostwriting.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just kind of leave it very vague like that.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um just because of the industry that that the the guy in particular is in, so forth.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are your feelings about whenever someone wants to have a call with you, but you are pretty and now you you can never totally know for sure what somebody's money situation is, obviously.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: But what are what is your are your feelings on just letting them know up front, hey, this is the price range of what I do?
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's pointless for us to have a conversation if this isn't even close to your price range.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, should you shut down the process even before you have a call if you think they're not gonna be able to afford your services?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's two different answers.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the one is though, in the cases where you already have a relationship with somebody, you want to you want to maintain that good relationship.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, of course.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's if let's just put that one to the side for one second, if it's somebody who just calls you up and they want to have this meeting and they want to do this and they nothing, and then you just tell them flat out, just like a friend of ours does.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: You just tell them flat out, I would be happy to have this.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: My hourly rate for this discussion is$2,500 to talk to you for um between 30 and 45 minutes.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if we do business, it's gonna cost you between somewhere between$50,000 and$200,000.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if that's something that you're willing to work with, let's have this meeting.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not, I can't help you.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's no amount of time.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: So this is for somebody who you don't know, right?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's the honest to God truth, it's up front and it's boom.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if they don't flinch, or they don't, they don't, or if they just say, Oh, no, that's out of my range, great.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wish you the best of luck and disconnect.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Don't send them someplace because then it's you, you know, there's all kinds of things that go on.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just just disconnect.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was with somebody who you don't know, just out of the ad, out of this, uh came out of the blue.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, for your friends, it's a different situation because now these are friends, but you do need to let them know.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing you do is what do you do?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: You ask questions.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: And even on the phone, you say, we don't need to get into all this here right now.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, say, just can't you just say to your friends Frank and Judy, who are now your friends, right?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you say, Frank and Judy, it's great to hear from you.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's great that you're thinking about you know wanting to do the story.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, what is it you really want from me?
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: What is it, how what do you really want me to do?
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: And let them answer because you could be stunned that it's almost nothing.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: They may just want guidance, right?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you're making an assumption otherwise that they want you to do a ghostwriting whole thing for them, and they may just want guidance.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know until you ask that question.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you ask that question, and it's not a value judgment, it's just a question.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever the answer is the answer.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: You may have to ask for a clarification answer or a deeper question, but they're gonna go, great.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: If they say, Hey, it'd be great if you could write our book because we don't need to do that.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you say, Well, I would love to write your book.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want to let you know what that is.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, first, this is my business, right?
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh so there's no, it's not like having an extra uh package of gum sitting on the shelf and me pulling a package of gum up.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is the time, so you can't get that time back.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't a shelf full of time.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens here is for my services, for whatever you're thinking about, wherever this comes to, at a minimum, it's going to be$25,000.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: At a maximum, maybe it's$125,000, and that's the range.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about this now?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then you shut up.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you didn't say, Do you like that?
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: You don't give a yes or a no.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like you guys um who are listening in, you can't see what I'm wearing, and it doesn't really matter.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: But if I was to ask Kent, if I say Kent, hey, do you like my shirt?
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you answer yes, or if you answer no, neither one of those answers tells me a thing.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why you like the shirt or why you don't like the shirt, either one.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't ask them, is that okay?
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: So many people would say, is that okay?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: You give the price range, is that okay?
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, you say, How do you feel now?
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's an open-ended question.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: And why?
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they can say, Wow, that's really out of our budget.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you say, Yeah, and I'm sorry for that.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: That is what it does cost for my services, and even though you're my friends, this is how I earn a living.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: Just like an attorney or anybody.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is how I earn a living professional service.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, with that said, how could I help you?
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then you just take it from there.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're friends, but you were up front with them, you didn't mislead them, you didn't do all this other stuff.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: You just laid it out there, they'll be appreciative of it because it probably took them a lot to call you in the first place.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: There are some people that'll just take advantage of people.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: They've been thinking about it for a while, I'm pretty sure.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: They were probably thinking about it and everything else, and now you said, Well, though, that answers that.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, even if Kent was to give us a 25% discount, it's still$30,000 out of our budget or 40,000, or maybe the whole thing, you know.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just and and then everybody moves on, and everybody's still friends, and nothing bad has happened.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, how did how what what did you like about my answer there to your question?
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I like it because it's just well, number one, it's it's a reminder to not assume anything because you sometimes you just don't know what somebody's financial situation is or what they want or what they have in mind.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've only had a couple of Facebook exchanges with this individual um in the last two or three weeks just trying to set up a call.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, no, I I think that's that's really good.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think your point, and and you've mentioned this a couple different times in this conversation, the point of say the price and then shut up, you know, and just let it lie.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because so many times we're just we're kind of apologetic about our pricing, it's like, well, and we immediately want to retract it because we're uncomfortable or there's some tension.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people who where the where the sales process sometimes seems to fall apart is because people who are selling can't stand the tension that comes with things, and you have to kind of just let it sit.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you want to be a professional, you have to say this is your pricing, and you can choose to work with somebody or not on pricing, but you have to just let it sit there and let the other person make of that what they will.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's really hard for people who are conflict avoidant.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we'll come right back to this is don't put yourself in a place of conflict.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: You it's very rare that a client will put you in or a prospect, a prospect is somebody who's not yet your client, right?
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: Will put you in a place of conflict.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's usually the way the salesperson or the person in the selling selling side of the the uh the the equation there gets defensive or or gets overly aggressive with something as opposed to just learning about them and being curious, being be curious.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say being curiosity, so but being curious, and um, and when you're doing that, because you are there to help them, it's just you don't go to a doctor and negotiate price, right?
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: You may not like the price, but you're not negotiating the price, and you if you want to get well or prevent yourself from getting a kidney stone if you can, no fun, um, then you're gonna do you're gonna pay for that service, right?
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're doing as a ghostwriter or writing services, helping people to do things that they've wanted to do.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: My wife said to me, she said, Boy, that book was a long time coming.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, I said it took 18 months from beginning to end.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: She said, No, it took 39 years.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because she's known me and she said the whole time we've known each other, you've been talking about wanting to write a book on what you do to help others, and it took 39 years to get it done, is what she said.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: Better late than never, though.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the point here is that you're helping them, and all of you, as you're writing services, always remember that you are there to help others to get done what they cannot do for themselves, or they don't want to do for themselves, and they would happily have somebody else do it as long as it gets out, and they'd be happy to pay for it because all the other stuff could be done by somebody else.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you could be the subject matter expert.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, here's a little interesting thing, and I'll end with this, and I don't think I've mentioned this to you a little while back, just just kind of speaking of of the value of having help with books.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: I and I I mentioned to a client that I that I did this, and you know, they they were cool with it.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was curious if I could train Chat GPT on how to write in my style, how to ghostwrit write in my style.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you're a fan of ChatGPT, I use it all the time too, not for client books, but I use it for other stuff.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, because it's kind of like Google on steroids in many ways.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I did is I fed a few chapters of this book into Chat GPT.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: I said, here's here's the book, here's the style, here's the topic, yada yada.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: I also fed it the transcripts that were the basis of those chapters that I had worked from.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Um, now I'm gonna give you a transcript of a chapter, and I want you to try and make an actual chapter of it with this word count in this style, with this voice, yada yada, and it could not do it.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was I tried for 90 minutes to get this process to work every way that I knew how, and it actually got worse and worse with every attempt.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some things that that computers and algorithms and AI can do, that's great, but there's other things like ghostwriting, and I think in your case, like sales coaching and very human-centered activities that technology just can't replicate, which I think is so valuable for and it it it doesn't, and in my book, I have a chapter on AI in there.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a book that was written recently, not 30 years ago, so before there was such a thing, and I challenged the book to handle objections.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: I gave and and I I use AI all the time.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is the greatest tool for helping me to think, but it is, but like you said, it doesn't write for me.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: I and but it helps me to think, and it certainly corrects my grammar.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that part I really appreciate.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the um, but I gave it the I I gave it the objections, I said, handle the objections.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then and I put all this in the book and I put in there and I graded the as a college professor, let's say, or somebody who's been doing this for more than 40 years, I graded those, and some of them the how it handled the objections were great, a few of them, and then some of them would have turned that the opportunity into no opportunity at all, it would have just destroyed the entire thing.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, so it comes back to what you're saying.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's the humans, humans could only make human decisions.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_00: Machine language is responsive only to what it literally sees.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: And for those of you who are Star Trek fans and you know who commander data is, yep, and um, I asked Chat GPT recently, I said, How do you compare yourself to commander data?
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it went through an elaborate comparison, and it said, I am nothing like commander data.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: Commander Data was sentient, Commander Data could think, Commander Data could could could have emotions, could you know, gained emotions later on through the series.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: And Commander Data could do all these things, and it says, I work with algorithms, and it was fantastic.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the honesty in the response, if you were to ask one person to compare themselves to another person or compare two people together, it'd be riddled with emotion.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: This one was just a mechanical response, and it was dead on honest because there was no emotion in the response.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so artificial intelligence has a great place in for what it does really well.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to continue to evolve and it's going to continue to get more powerful and do more things.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: But how many people how many people enjoy interfacing with an AI when you call for service from any kind of provider?
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the worst thing, right?
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: And even if they give you the right answer, it was still not the same thing.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then you Get frustrated when you try to get to a real human being because it gets caught in an endless loop trying to help you, but it can't help you because it doesn't even understand what you're asking, because it doesn't know what you're asking, even though you've told it 28 different times.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: And now you're talking to your four-year-old, seems like you're talking to the smartest person on the planet with the most with that's lived for a thousand years, and that person's only four years old, because you're going to get a better answer from the four-year-old after asking the same question for 12 times, where the AI is going to get stuck in the same loop.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so you're right.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: So AI has a place, but AI is not going to make the sale.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: AI is not going to drive down in your prospect's mind to find out exactly what's the most important thing.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you find out.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just going to kind of end this with this kind of story here is that I was working with a potential client.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: She was in computer sales, IT sales, computer services, and she was considering hire me.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: She couldn't make the final decision that would come from her boss.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: But when I was talking to her and found out that she was a single mom and she had these expenses and she had to pay for that, I said, Yeah, that's all good and great.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: I sound pretty harsh and cold, right?
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: I said, everybody wants to feed their family.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody wants to take care of themselves.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's got a situation.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: But what is it you really want?
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, I really want to own a therapeutic horse farm.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, why don't you own a therapeutic horse farm?
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, Because it costs a lot of money.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody around me tells me it's a stupid idea and I shouldn't do it and I can't do it.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, Okay.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: So first things first, all those people who are being negative to you like that, tell them, you are my family, I love you, but you're in my way.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you on the holidays.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: Every good life.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then you come back and you say, Who could help me to get the horse farm?
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were to bring me on as your sales coach, I'm not gonna help you to become a better IT salesperson.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna help you to get that horse farm.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: When do you want it?
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, within three years.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say, we're gonna get that horse farm in three years or less, because that's what you really want for me, right?
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if I have a competitor who's a sales coach or a sales trainer, and they're coming in, they're gonna give her all the stuff about how to sell more IT services and everything else.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm gonna help her get her horse farm.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: Who's she gonna hire?
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you obviously.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, same thing with what you're doing.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's finding out why they want to write what they want to write and why they haven't done it and how you're gonna help them and what does it ultimately mean?
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about having the book.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't write my book, Handling Objections, because I wanted to have a book on handling objections.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote my book because I have a mission.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: My book is there for people to see that I'm here, get confidence in me from doing this, liking what it is, and then wanting to hire me for whatever one of my services are or more.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I wrote my book.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you just said, Phil, is so critical because people I think many people have the wrong idea about what is really the purpose of a book.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: The purpose of a book is not just to have a book.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: A book, I mean it can be if you if it's fiction, you know, fiction's a whole different beast.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: But a non-fiction book is is doesn't exist so it can it can be in the world that exists to help people solve a problem of some kind or to get some kind of result.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we forget that about a book sometimes.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: It is a vehicle for transformation in somebody else's life or their business or family or relationships or whatever result they want.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not it's doesn't just stop with okay, here's the book, you know.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, you didn't write the book to have a book, you wrote it to help to help with some other objective that you have.
• 1:09:38
  unknown: Right.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really important.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, even fiction, but let's pick on fiction books, okay?
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got a fiction book author, you've got uh he or she has a genre, it could be horror, it could be science fiction, it could be all kinds of things, right?
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: Umantic comedies, you know, it could be whatever, it could be Agatha Christie type mysteries, so it's all fiction.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So let's take that.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason, Kent, why they're writing those books, why they want to write that book.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it you want to write that book?
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you choose that genre?
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that you want to gain by doing that?
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you want to start up, you want to get a community of people to follow your books and buy one book.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what would the what will that mean to you?
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why what will be the what will you gain from that?
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: What is it important to you?
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want to be a famous author.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_00: See, remember, these are their values, they don't have to be your values.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_00: They're their value.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a famous author.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what does a famous author?
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_00: You could anybody could stop it there, Ken.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna help you to be a famous author.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, there's something else.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_00: What is it about being a famous author that is gonna that what does that mean to you to be a famous author?
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because what one person's famous author feeling is is completely different than the next and the next.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if you were to take five famous authors of the most famous authors that all of us can name and put them in a room and don't have them listen to each other, just ask them the same question, you might get six answers from those five people.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so the point here is the value is what it is.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: So either whether it's fiction or nonfiction, you as writers, it's about why are you doing this?
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to have gained?
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_00: What is important to this?
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a horror book, do you want to scare the people to to where they have to wear um, you know, pampers or something, uh, or the pens while they're reading it because they're gonna mess up their pants because they're so scared?
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it something different?
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what do you want to do and why is that important?
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And by the time you're done, they're gonna be looking for you to help them because you could take that moment, or let's say it's a suspense thing, you could have it so suspenseful that they are refusing to go to bed because they are gonna find out what's going on.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we've all read those kind of books at some point in time for those who read, right?
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I could tell you it was Hunt for Red October from by Tom Clancy, the book that made him famous.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I started reading that book.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was sitting in bed and I read the entire book.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I could not go to sleep, I could not put it down.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I read the entire thing because I was so suspensed.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So and you, you know, as a writer may not be able to drag that level of suspense out, but me as your ghostwriter, I could take your words and your passion and what you want to do, and I could turn this into that.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And basically whose name is on the book when it's all done, it's yours.
• 1:12:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So my only question for you is I could start next month or I could start in three months.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: When do you want me to start for you?
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if they're ready for you, Kent, they're gonna answer that question.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would really like you to start next month.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_00: What's it gonna cost?
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: They answer your question, you've got them as a client.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: If they say, Well, wait, I didn't say I was gonna hire you, that's okay too.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you know now that there's something else.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: You say, Great, thank you for that answer.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's obviously some other things that you want to know that you know you're not ready to move forward.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Got it?
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_00: What are those things?
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then shut up.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're still in the game.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Don't bury the living.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: I write, I just did a whole write-up on don't bury the living.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're not dead just because they said they're not ready to move.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it takes a while sometimes.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a while.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Phil, this has been a fantastic conversation.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I love it.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for hanging around like more than what you planned on it.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, lots of really, really good stuff here.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I appreciate you sharing your wisdom.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Where can people find out more about your book and your services and all the things that you're up to?
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the best place to go is to my website, which you can go to bin there.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's all one word, B-E-E-N T-H-E-R-E-C-S.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's been there consulting services, be bin therecs.com.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to come to me directly, just send me an email right to me.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Just send it to Phil P-H I L at binarecs.com and um put in the subject line that uh you heard me on Kent Sanders' uh podcast.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I will respond to you first.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh you'll pop right out.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd love to hear from everybody.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't, I cannot thank you enough for this opportunity.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I uh you're a great interviewer.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I loved uh the questions and the conversation back and forth.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much for that.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate being on the show and uh appreciate your friendship.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And as of the the time we're recording this, uh this is June the 3rd.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: This will come out in July.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll see you next week in Nashville for Honore Quarter's Empire Builders Mastermind.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: By the time this comes out, that will have happened a few weeks previous.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, looking forward to seeing you then.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, looking forward to it myself.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much again for joining me for another episode of The Profitable Rider.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_01: As always, I really appreciate you taking time to listen.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm looking forward to the next episode, which features a conversation with Savannah Carlisle on building a multifaceted writing career.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that aligns perfectly with all things Profitable Rider, since we talk so much around here about building income streams.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_01: So make sure you don't miss that one, and I will see you there.