Latest / Speaking of Meaning / Why Most People Negotiate Wrong

Transcript

Why Most People Negotiate Wrong · Speaking of Meaning

0:02
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Speaking of Meaning,
0:04
SPEAKER_01: the podcast that helps you become a stronger communicator,
0:08
SPEAKER_01: build deeper relationships and create impact that matters.
0:13
I'm your host,
0:14
Ibrahim,
0:15
and I am a professional speaker,
0:17
soccer referee and leader.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: I love helping other people, and I also love to learn new things.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: This podcast is about better communication,
0:26
SPEAKER_01: greater impact at work,
0:29
SPEAKER_01: in your home,
0:30
SPEAKER_01: and in the world out there.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Speaking of Meaning, everybody.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: I am Ibrahim, and today I'm joined by Asger Lindholt.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: Asger has an engineering background and PhD.
0:54
And for the last 10 plus years,
0:56
he has been an expert on negotiation and communication.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: Asger, good to have you.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for the invitation.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:07
I am excited for this conversation because you are going to
1:11
talk about a topic I'm
1:13
SPEAKER_01: really interested in,
1:16
SPEAKER_01: but that I don't know much about.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: It's negotiation.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I find it such a fascinating topic.
1:24
And I would say when people dive into it and then you get to
1:27
know more about it,
1:28
SPEAKER_00: you see that there are so many opportunities that can just be increased.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: You got to be able to use this right after the show with your kids,
1:38
SPEAKER_00: with your partner and colleagues.
1:40
And so it's not just in a business room,
1:43
it's everywhere all the time when negotiating.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: So not just with colleagues, but also with kids.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Also with kids, I tell you, it made a massive difference for me.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Not that I succeed every time.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: It's not a magical formula.
1:57
It'll be putting too much on,
1:59
but definitely you can increase the success rate of simple
2:02
things.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Getting your clothes on, eating your food, getting out the door.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Asker, you've been doing this for 10 plus years.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me what is your mission?
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think my mission is a few different things.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: One is thinking about when I kind of get to the end of my life,
2:21
SPEAKER_00: I want to be able to look back and say,
2:23
SPEAKER_00: hey,
2:23
SPEAKER_00: I made a difference for some people in a positive way.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of like for the society.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: And then,
2:30
SPEAKER_00: of course,
2:31
SPEAKER_00: my mission is also to be the most that I can for my kids,
2:35
SPEAKER_00: my wife,
2:35
SPEAKER_00: those that are close to me.
2:37
And whenever I develop new skills,
2:40
get better,
2:40
I can give that to my kids.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: You know,
2:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm already teaching my children how to become better at communicating,
2:46
SPEAKER_00: how to sell better.
2:48
My oldest daughter is close to 12,
2:50
you know,
2:51
in a way that makes sense for her in her world.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: So the more I grow, the more I can give.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the mission I'm on.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:02
So for the last 10 years,
3:03
you've been working on communication and negotiation.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: How did you end up in that field?
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like by a few coincidences.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: I was sitting in a job being an engineer and,
3:17
And I could see on paper I was making a difference,
3:19
but I didn't feel satisfied.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: I didn't really enjoy the job.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Nice colleagues, nice pay, all of that.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: But then I was trying just a lot of different things.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: And one time I stumbled across a course in the Engineering Association,
3:32
SPEAKER_00: on public speaking.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: And I thought,
3:34
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
3:34
kind of nice to know just a little bit about it out a percent
3:37
sometimes at work.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: And it just totally opened my world.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: There was so much, you know, to becoming a better communicator.
3:44
SPEAKER_00: And then I joined a club called Toastmasters,
3:47
went there for several years and really learned the art of
3:51
speaking and did a lot
3:53
SPEAKER_00: of things outside the club as well.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of my transition into that.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: because it just felt right.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: That was really why.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: You felt it was your calling, basically.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just, you know, it felt right.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know if you've tried that, Ibrahim.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: It looks right on paper.
4:12
People tell you,
4:13
oh,
4:13
that's great,
4:14
you know,
4:15
but you're not feeling fulfilled.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: You're not feeling satisfied.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: I enjoy being on stage.
4:21
I enjoy having people come and say,
4:22
you know,
4:23
oh,
4:23
that was a really nice tip.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: I think we're going to go home and try that, you know.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: So that's how I got into it, just by trying a lot of different things.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: And then eventually going with this feels right.
4:36
And then of course,
4:37
for many,
4:37
many years,
4:38
I didn't really believe I could do it.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: You know,
4:40
SPEAKER_00: coming from an engineering background,
4:42
SPEAKER_00: which has in some sense,
4:44
SPEAKER_00: not that much to do with communication.
4:46
Although it does actually have,
4:48
if you dig a little bit deeper,
4:50
you can use a lot of it.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: Because most things have to do with communication in one way or another.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
4:59
When I,
4:59
when I worked as a PhD student,
5:01
I would say most of your job is actually communicating.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: Of course you are in the lab,
5:06
SPEAKER_00: you're trying to discover things,
5:07
SPEAKER_00: but when you write your articles,
5:09
SPEAKER_00: when you go to conferences,
5:11
SPEAKER_00: it's about communicating the value you create.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of scientists in that community,
5:18
SPEAKER_00: just talking about that,
5:20
SPEAKER_00: their careers can be very successful if they're good at communicating.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: They can also be very limited and very short if they can't communicate.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: So just a few things.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: If you have a phrase like,
5:34
SPEAKER_00: however,
5:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
5:36
SPEAKER_00: however,
5:36
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
5:37
SPEAKER_00: hey,
5:37
SPEAKER_00: this is going to be a problem or but.
5:40
Or despite of,
5:42
like,
5:42
you know,
5:43
those tweaks,
5:44
but I better read that article.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: There's something to it.
5:48
So there's a lot you can learn within communication and make a
5:52
massive difference.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: It's not just in the scientific community.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: It's everywhere.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: It's everywhere.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Asker,
5:59
SPEAKER_01: for the listeners right now,
6:01
SPEAKER_01: if people could only take one thing from this conversation,
6:07
SPEAKER_01: what do you hope it is?
6:09
SPEAKER_00: For me,
6:10
SPEAKER_00: I would say one of the mistakes I made for many years is,
6:13
SPEAKER_00: and also coming from an engineering background,
6:15
SPEAKER_00: is trying to solve people's problems.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: So earlier when my wife would come home,
6:21
SPEAKER_00: I would listen and then give advice on what she could do.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: And I would say nine out of 10 times, she doesn't need that advice.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: She just needs to be listened and understood.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Most people just want to be understood.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: They're not solved.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: So now today,
6:37
SPEAKER_00: even with clients,
6:38
SPEAKER_00: with my kids,
6:39
SPEAKER_00: if they have an understanding,
6:40
SPEAKER_00: hey,
6:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm understanding them or I'm trying to understand them,
6:44
SPEAKER_00: most things get solved.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: Most things get solved.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: And this is what we're going to talk about today.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: Negotiation.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: What is negotiation?
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Negotiation.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at its core, it's really solving problems.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: So,
7:02
SPEAKER_00: for instance,
7:03
SPEAKER_00: a while ago,
7:04
SPEAKER_00: one of my friends,
7:06
SPEAKER_00: she was moved to a different department because that department,
7:09
SPEAKER_00: they were having a few problems,
7:10
SPEAKER_00: a few layoffs,
7:11
SPEAKER_00: and they needed somebody that's stable and livers well.
7:16
And then,
7:17
because the person is delivering well,
7:19
the manager wants her to stay.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: But that's not what is in our interest.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: He wants to go back to the old department.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: He said, I'm not going to get that fixed.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: It's not really my problem.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: No, I had to tell her, that is your problem.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: You have to solve the problem of the manager,
7:36
SPEAKER_00: because if you don't,
7:38
SPEAKER_00: it's going to be your problem.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: So negotiation is really about helping the other one solve their problem.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: And of course, get what you want as well.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: So you really have to help them see how you can help them.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: That, for me, is at its core.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: And that's why you have a dialogue back and forth.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: You ask questions.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: You're curious.
8:02
You use your knowledge to see if you can open them up and get
8:05
them to think in new ways.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: So you're basically solving a problem for them.
8:11
So you're solving a problem for somebody else and also solving
8:15
your own problem?
8:17
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so in my world, I mainly sell courses in companies.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: It could be negotiation or other things related to communication.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, they have a problem.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Maybe their leaders aren't listened to,
8:33
SPEAKER_00: or there's a lack of direction,
8:35
SPEAKER_00: or there's a waste of time in the meetings.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: That's their problem, right?
8:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:40
I have to help them with that,
8:41
but I have to make them realize it's actually costing you a
8:44
lot.
8:45
And then,
8:45
of course,
8:46
I get my problem solved,
8:47
which is I get a payment for that.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Or I get to work with people I enjoy working with.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Is it always a win situation or can it vary?
8:57
SPEAKER_00: I would say it depends on the situation.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: But for me and the clients I work with,
9:03
SPEAKER_00: I always encourage win-win,
9:05
SPEAKER_00: which means the other person should win.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And you should win yourself as well.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Of course, there are situations when it's not necessary.
9:15
When I was in Rome and the sticks came out where you could take
9:21
selfie pictures,
9:22
I thought I was so good because I negotiated a guy down from 15
9:25
euros to 12,
9:27
SPEAKER_00: really proud.
9:28
Then I walked a couple of hundred meters with my family and I
9:30
saw they won sales for three.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: This is not a long term relationship I have with that guy.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: So he was happy to give me a three year discount.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: But if you're dealing with clients you're working with again and again,
9:43
SPEAKER_00: I think the best is really making sure that they come out on top as well.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: To have a long-term sustainable relationship.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: Again, if we're doing with kids, I could get my way one time.
9:58
But if it's costing me in the long term and I got to struggle
10:01
every time more,
10:04
it's not optimal.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: So if you win, you risk losing the relationship.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: And that's going to cost you more.
10:14
So the relationship is basically the most important thing in
10:19
that negotiation,
10:20
SPEAKER_01: especially if it's a long-term relationship.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the relationship is everything.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: We want to buy from people we trust, know and like.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: So building that is the foundation.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: What decision do you think the other person is making in a negotiation?
10:42
SPEAKER_00: They're basically thinking,
10:45
one thing maybe two things we mainly base decisions on fear so
10:51
it can be a current
10:52
fear we have or a future pain and you want to obviously
10:58
minimize that so they're
11:00
SPEAKER_00: like okay if you buy a course from me it's going to cost me that much
11:06
But what's the risk that I don't gain anything from it or I
11:11
gain very limited or I
11:12
SPEAKER_00: lose my time,
11:14
SPEAKER_00: right?
11:15
SPEAKER_00: That's what they're thinking.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: But there's a future pain.
11:18
If I don't get this solved,
11:19
well,
11:20
I might still,
11:21
if I get on stage,
11:22
be really nervous.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: I want this fixed.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's really a lot about fear.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay,
11:30
so when you're dealing with somebody and you're noticing that
11:34
they are making
11:35
SPEAKER_01: decisions or talking out of fear,
11:38
SPEAKER_01: do you want to move them into the pain perspective?
11:44
SPEAKER_00: You want to make them feel pain infinitely.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: Because,
11:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:48
SPEAKER_00: if we talk just about speaking,
11:50
SPEAKER_00: okay,
11:51
SPEAKER_00: what's it doing to you that every time you get nervous,
11:55
SPEAKER_00: you get on stage?
11:56
Oh,
11:56
well,
11:57
I don't get to connect with people,
11:58
X,
11:58
Y,
11:58
Z.
11:58
You know,
11:59
they share all their pain.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, how long has it been going on for?
12:03
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I've had it for more than 10 years.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: What have you tried?
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I've tried this and this.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know,
12:12
Maybe then you,
12:13
at a certain point,
12:14
like you can move them over to the solution.
12:16
Would it be okay if I shared how I've helped people from this
12:21
and this company
12:22
SPEAKER_00: actually get it solved?
12:24
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, that'd be great.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: And then you kind of share a little bit.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: You get permission to share your solution.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: But you want them definitely to feel pain first.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like, is that their natural state?
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Is that how we work, human beings?
12:40
SPEAKER_01: We always consider fear before pain?
12:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: It's a bigger driver for us to avoid losing something.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: So,
12:48
SPEAKER_00: for instance,
12:49
SPEAKER_00: if I asked you,
12:50
SPEAKER_00: and if you're like the majority of people and I said,
12:53
SPEAKER_00: you can win 100 euros,
12:54
SPEAKER_00: you roll the dice,
12:56
SPEAKER_00: you get it if you roll one,
12:57
SPEAKER_00: two,
12:57
SPEAKER_00: or three,
12:58
SPEAKER_00: but you lose 100 if it's a four,
13:00
SPEAKER_00: five,
13:00
SPEAKER_00: or six.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Would you take that one?
13:05
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: You wouldn't, no.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: So we could up it a little bit and say,
13:08
SPEAKER_00: okay,
13:08
SPEAKER_00: you would win 100 if you go six,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: five,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: four,
13:14
SPEAKER_00: and three,
13:14
SPEAKER_00: but you lose them if it's a one and two.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: Would you do it now?
13:19
SPEAKER_01: probably more likely than scenario number one.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:24
It's more likely,
13:25
but even though,
13:26
statistically speaking,
13:27
you would make money
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Right?
13:29
SPEAKER_00: But the risk is still there.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: That means we have more- It's a big risk.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: It's still a risk, right?
13:37
SPEAKER_00: So we definitely want to avoid the pain and you want to minimize that.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not, you don't want to make them feel bad about themselves.
13:46
It's just really make them realize,
13:48
okay,
13:49
there's this challenge,
13:50
this problem.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:52
And of course,
13:52
you can say the biggest gap you can have between your pain and
13:57
a better future
13:59
SPEAKER_00: is really what's going to sell it, right?
14:01
SPEAKER_00: Again,
14:02
SPEAKER_00: if it's just like,
14:02
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
14:03
SPEAKER_00: you might feel slightly better on stage,
14:06
SPEAKER_00: like,
14:06
SPEAKER_00: wow,
14:06
SPEAKER_00: okay,
14:07
SPEAKER_00: what difference is that going to make?
14:09
SPEAKER_00: So really widen the gap between pain and a better future.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: That's the key.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Is that also a big challenge for you as a negotiator?
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Well,
14:23
the challenge is you've got to help the one you're talking to
14:26
see what the pain
14:27
SPEAKER_00: it's causing them.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: You know,
14:29
SPEAKER_00: okay,
14:29
what's it costing you now that your project leaders are not
14:34
clear in their
14:35
SPEAKER_00: direction,
14:35
SPEAKER_00: that you're wasting time in meetings?
14:37
SPEAKER_00: So just a while ago,
14:38
SPEAKER_00: just had a meeting with someone and we talked about,
14:41
SPEAKER_00: okay,
14:42
SPEAKER_00: they're losing people in their company.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Like how much is that costing you?
14:47
SPEAKER_00: That's about half a million every time someone stops.
14:51
And then there's a hassle finding someone new,
14:54
chains of culture and all that.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, okay.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: So, so yeah, dig into it.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: I know it can sound a little bit harsh to,
15:05
SPEAKER_00: to dive into pain in that way,
15:08
SPEAKER_00: but you do it in an empathetic way.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like it's the cost of not changing, not taking action.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes, most people don't take action because they're afraid of change.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: It's troublesome.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: The pain is not big enough.
15:24
I mean,
15:25
sometimes you meet people and you say,
15:26
oh,
15:26
have you thought about your pension?
15:29
SPEAKER_00: No, not really.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, I haven't had time.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: And they're like 50.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: You haven't had time for the last 25 years.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Not really,
15:35
SPEAKER_00: because it's just too much trouble to go in and spend maybe half an hour,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: an hour looking over to that.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: But if you make them realize and say,
15:43
SPEAKER_00: this is going to be a big problem for you in 20 years,
15:46
SPEAKER_00: because how are you going to provide for yourself and your family?
15:50
SPEAKER_00: And you make them realize like, okay, thank you for opening my eyes.
15:53
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
15:55
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: So before you enter negotiation,
16:02
SPEAKER_01: let's say somebody has an important meeting or a negotiation coming up.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: What has to be clear within you first before you enter a negotiation?
16:13
SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
16:15
SPEAKER_00: I think it depends on what you're negotiating,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: but what things if you're,
16:21
SPEAKER_00: let's say it's for me,
16:23
SPEAKER_00: it's a payment,
16:23
SPEAKER_00: I would say,
16:24
SPEAKER_00: okay,
16:24
SPEAKER_00: what's my minimum?
16:26
that I am willing to accept what is like the minimum things I
16:30
want to accept.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Get clear on that.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think a big part of it is also getting emotionally ready.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: Because most of the things in a negotiation is psychological.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Getting ready to control your own feelings,
16:46
SPEAKER_00: but also be ready to kind of co-regulate the other one.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds a little bit,
16:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it sounds wrong,
16:55
SPEAKER_00: but you have to be able to help them as well in their situation,
17:00
SPEAKER_00: especially to get a bit emotional.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, prepare your arguments.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: What's the value you bring to them?
17:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:08
So your minimum acceptable is for me a big one in getting ready
17:13
emotionally.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: So the minimum acceptable outcome.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: And also emotionally regulate the other person.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: How do you do that?
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of different techniques you can use.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: So it can be...
17:33
let's just say to get a little bit agitated or you're having a
17:36
heated conversation.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: You can, you can tell it.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like I triggered something within you.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, you did.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: It was like, I really got bothered by you.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that was my intention.
17:46
But you know,
17:48
so you kind of help them phrase that thing or you can have a
17:52
concerned voice.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like this has been going on for, for a long time.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, it has.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: And then they kind of open up.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: It's like, it sounds like it's been going on for a long time.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: That's very harsh.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't want that tone at that moment.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: There might be other ways I can regulate them and challenge them.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: If we have built trust and say,
18:14
SPEAKER_00: now what would change if you didn't do anything about this big problem?
18:19
SPEAKER_00: That's another one challenging in the tone.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: You need trust first, right?
18:29
SPEAKER_01: Before you can accomplish anything in the beginning.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: So you want to establish trust within them.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like when you talk about your voice and asking questions,
18:48
SPEAKER_01: it sounds like having empathy and showing empathy.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: And empathy doesn't mean feel sorry for the other person,
18:56
SPEAKER_01: but understand where they're coming from.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: So right.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: You don't need to have sympathy.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: That's me going, oh, I'm sorry.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, empathy is like, I understand your world.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: I might not agree with it,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: but it's just like,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: hey,
19:11
SPEAKER_00: I see that's a big problem for you or that is important to you.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so true.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: Is it common,
19:20
SPEAKER_01: Asker,
19:21
SPEAKER_01: that people enter negotiations too hard,
19:27
SPEAKER_01: too firm,
19:28
SPEAKER_01: too rough from the beginning?
19:31
SPEAKER_00: Some people go very hard at it in the beginning.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: I work with a lot of companies in the construction business.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: And there,
19:38
this is a really challenging business because there are
19:41
different actors in the
19:43
SPEAKER_00: industry,
19:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:45
SPEAKER_00: building it.
19:45
There's the one counseling and maybe the one that's going to
19:49
take over the building.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: So there are a lot of different conflicts and interests there.
19:54
And there it is sometimes a very hard environment where there
19:59
can be some clashes
19:59
SPEAKER_00: because the interests aren't always aligned.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, you've got to be able to deal with that.
20:08
But yeah,
20:08
sometimes people,
20:09
I think,
20:09
go too hard at it and they risk losing their relationship.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: How do you distinguish between...
20:18
If somebody has a true need,
20:21
a preference,
20:23
or if it's just the ego talking.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: So that's a really good question you have there.
20:29
SPEAKER_00: And I would say, when is it a need?
20:32
SPEAKER_00: That's like a deeper underlying thing.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Like a need that could be...
20:38
SPEAKER_00: feeling valued or recognized.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: So a little bit deeper, right?
20:43
SPEAKER_00: And when do we have that?
20:45
Like I saw,
20:47
read some time ago,
20:49
one that says,
20:50
okay,
20:51
if you let a day pass by,
20:54
SPEAKER_00: and it's not really of interest, it's probably not anything big for you.
20:57
We all get this,
20:58
oh,
20:58
that'd be nice with this online course or whatever thing.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: But you wait a day, it's not really of your interest.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: It's probably not important.
21:04
If you wait a week and you still kind of interested,
21:07
yeah,
21:07
okay,
21:08
there's something about it.
21:09
If you wait a month and still interested,
21:11
then I would say that's like a big need.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: So I say,
21:15
SPEAKER_00: because emotions are very quick,
21:18
SPEAKER_00: but if you can sustain it over time,
21:20
SPEAKER_00: it's probably important.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: so perhaps an advice would be before you buy that course or make that big
21:30
SPEAKER_01: investment,
21:31
SPEAKER_01: if you put it aside and you still hear that voice week after week,
21:37
SPEAKER_01: month after month,
21:38
SPEAKER_01: you should probably do it.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
21:40
SPEAKER_00: if you go see a big house,
21:42
SPEAKER_00: and maybe that's going to be the biggest thing you buy in your life.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, I love that house.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, go see it a few times.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: Wait some time.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Does it feel right?
21:53
SPEAKER_00: If it's just a little pen that looks nice, yeah, buy it right away.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah, so time is a good indicator, I think.
22:01
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
22:02
And another way to really discover is,
22:04
this is a technique we often use in our courses.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: It's very useful in many ways.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: It's called the five whys technique.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: It's just you keep asking why.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: So you say, okay, why is it important for me to help people?
22:18
Okay,
22:18
it's important for me because then I feel fulfilled and I feel
22:21
I can make a difference.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay, why is that important?
22:24
SPEAKER_00: And then I come down to the end.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, having a life that makes sense and full of meaning.
22:31
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: So you can ask yourself, why is that important?
22:35
SPEAKER_00: Several times, and then each time you get the answer.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Ego for me is a little bit different.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: It's your status,
22:44
SPEAKER_00: your fear,
22:44
SPEAKER_00: those underlying things that we often don't talk about,
22:49
SPEAKER_00: sometimes feel a little bit ashamed of.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Because, yeah, at the end of the day, we are also animals.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: There is a hierarchy and certain things.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: But digging deep into that, is it a fear-based decision?
23:03
Is it to be recognized or is it you feel ashamed or what is it
23:07
that drives it?
23:09
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: I like the five whys because every answer you come up with,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: why,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: why,
23:19
SPEAKER_01: and you get to the true meaning,
23:24
SPEAKER_01: more depth,
23:25
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: 100% it was developed by Toyota in the 90s to build cars better, faster.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: But you can use it within humans and really get to the root cause.
23:39
Again,
23:39
if you're nervous on stage,
23:40
really discover what is it that makes you nervous.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's a lot of people.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, why do you get nervous when there's a lot of people?
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, because they're crazy and you keep answering.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, maybe there was something...
23:51
I wasn't fulfilled in my childhood or whatever it is you get to
23:55
if you dig deeper.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: I guess when it comes to public speaking,
24:05
SPEAKER_01: yes,
24:05
SPEAKER_01: you might be nervous,
24:06
SPEAKER_01: but I think a lot of people are just...
24:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:10
SPEAKER_01: afraid they will look stupid on the stage,
24:14
SPEAKER_01: they will fall flat on their faces and people will laugh at them,
24:18
SPEAKER_01: big embarrassments.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: And then if you go beneath that,
24:24
SPEAKER_01: you're probably going to get a different answer,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: about self-esteem,
24:27
SPEAKER_01: about being rejected and so forth.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as you mentioned, getting laughed at, loss of status.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: That's one of the worst things.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: Think about in the old tribal community.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: If your status is lost,
24:41
SPEAKER_00: you have less access to food,
24:44
SPEAKER_00: protection,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: and partner status is the most important.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: It's so deeply rooted within us.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: But of course, you can work with that.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't limit you as much as it often does for people.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: But understanding that just gives, for many people, oh, really?
25:05
SPEAKER_00: That's what's causing me to be afraid.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: So a nice example you have there.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: It shifts something in your mind.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: It shifts something in your mind.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: And what I also find very interesting is that most audiences,
25:22
SPEAKER_01: I've never met an audience who wants the speaker to fail.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: You know,
25:29
SPEAKER_01: most audiences want you to succeed,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: to thrive on the stage,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: because emotions are contagious.
25:36
If I'm nervous,
25:37
anxious,
25:38
and I meet my team,
25:40
they're also going to be nervous and anxious.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: But if I'm confident,
25:44
SPEAKER_01: if I'm calm,
25:44
SPEAKER_01: if I'm relaxed,
25:46
SPEAKER_01: even if I'm nervous,
25:47
SPEAKER_01: but I'm genuine and I'm,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm fine with it,
25:51
SPEAKER_01: they're also going to be fine with it.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
25:56
It's incredibly rare you want to see somebody that wants you
25:59
not to do well.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: And if there is one that doesn't want to see you do well,
26:03
is that really someone we want to give them more attention or
26:07
good advice?
26:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, that they don't share the value I have.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: So in that way, they have just lost all power within my sphere.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't share the same value and ethics as that person.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: And of course, I agree with you.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: If the audience will mirror us, it's the same in a negotiation.
26:27
If you feel confident in your products,
26:29
in your services,
26:31
they need to tap into that.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: We've done this before.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: We've worked with several companies like this.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: We know this case.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: We're going to get something really valuable for you.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: But if they feel doubt, they're probably not going to buy from you.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like,
26:51
SPEAKER_01: just like Daniel Kahneman,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: who wrote the book Thinking Fast and Slow,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: we make decisions based on emotions.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I love that book.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Most of our decisions is the system one,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: as he talks about,
27:04
SPEAKER_00: the fast decisions,
27:06
SPEAKER_00: biased decisions,
27:08
SPEAKER_00: and the slower decisions is number two.
27:10
And that's why if we talked about letting time pass,
27:14
you have more time to reflect and think.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: There's a better chance you can use both systems.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Both are valuable.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: So, Asker, we've talked about now negotiations.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: What is a negotiation, preferences, mindset, and so forth.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Now, a lot of people I know,
27:40
are usually nervous before they will talk with their boss about
27:45
their salary or
27:46
SPEAKER_01: negotiate a role at work.
27:49
What do people misunderstand most about negotiating,
27:53
for instance,
27:54
a salary or a role at work?
27:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
27:58
SPEAKER_00: if we just take salary,
27:59
I would say what I think a lot of people misunderstand is the
28:04
salary is not the
28:05
SPEAKER_00: most important.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: The most important for most people is feeling valued.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: So for instance,
28:14
if you're in a company and let's say you're making the same as
28:17
most other people
28:18
SPEAKER_00: with the same years of experience as you,
28:22
SPEAKER_00: probably going to be, yeah, fine.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: I feel valued, kind of like everyone else.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Then you move to another company.
28:28
Let's say you just move to another company and you get raised
28:32
your salary,
28:33
SPEAKER_00: let's say just 500 euros more a month.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: But all the other people with the same experience as you,
28:40
SPEAKER_00: they're making a thousand euros more than you.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: Most likely you'll be pissed off.
28:45
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: Cause like, Hey man, I'm not feeling valued here.
28:49
Like everyone's getting treated better than me despite I bring
28:53
just as much to the
28:54
SPEAKER_00: table as them.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: and what I also think,
28:59
so that's one thing really understanding is often a feeling of
29:02
being valued and the
29:03
SPEAKER_00: payment is often,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: it just needs to be good enough.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: It needs to be fair when it's fair.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: There's often a lot of other things you can negotiate on.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the budgets, they say they're fixed.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, they're never fixed.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: There's always money in the system.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: So when you get told there's no more money, it's a lie.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Nine out of ten times or more.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, there are also a lot of other things you can negotiate.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: You can negotiate working from home one day.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: You can negotiate getting on a course.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: You can negotiate on
29:40
being part of a new project where you can develop more or get
29:44
more responsibility
29:45
SPEAKER_00: or whatever it is.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: So you should open up the box and don't just think about money.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: It's just one thing.
29:56
How do you approach a boss or a company if you feel that you
30:01
have not been valued?
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Let's say I make $500 less than you, Oscar.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: We do the same job and we are equally talented.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:10
I would talk about it in a good way and say seek for some
30:16
empathy because it can be
30:17
SPEAKER_00: hard and you want the other person to get into emotions.
30:20
Say,
30:21
John or Ibrahim,
30:23
I really like you,
30:25
but there's something I got to tell you.
30:27
It's a little bit hard for me to actually share this and it's
30:31
actually been
30:31
SPEAKER_00: bothering me for quite a while.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: It's that everyone else...
30:39
SPEAKER_00: is getting paid more than me in this department.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: And I just feel bad because I feel I'm delivering the same or more.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: How come that is the case?
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And then you wait and you want to ask questions.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: So you ring out and say, you share what I call professional feeling.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, sure.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: We can be human beings at work and say, actually, I don't feel valued.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: And that's a big problem for the manager, not feeling valued.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: It has to be a really, you know, not a nice person.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: If you can't understand, not feeling valued isn't good.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: And then you share your reason for it.
31:30
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: And then you see what happens.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, really?
31:35
SPEAKER_00: Is that the case?
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we didn't intend to.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, what can we do about it?
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, oh, well, you know, we have a salary annunciation next year.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: And then you pass a little bit.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: That's a long time to wait.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: Just come with a step.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, I know.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: And you want to,
32:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:02
SPEAKER_00: keep around the problem and seeing if they take the bait,
32:05
SPEAKER_00: if there's something,
32:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:08
SPEAKER_00: I've heard sometimes that,
32:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:10
SPEAKER_00: the budgets are sometimes flexible or am I totally way off?
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh no.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we are flexible.
32:17
You want to see if you're going to be talking and just keep
32:21
asking questions.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Is this useful?
32:24
SPEAKER_01: It is.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: It is.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: So,
32:25
SPEAKER_01: so basically you enter the room,
32:28
SPEAKER_01: you talk with,
32:29
SPEAKER_01: with,
32:29
SPEAKER_01: with that person and you,
32:32
you want to create that professional feeling where you
32:36
basically shed light on the
32:39
SPEAKER_01: fact that you don't feel valued and you're not attacking them.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: You're asking questions and you're also being vulnerable.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: And you come with an open mindset, you know, this is the situation.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: How can we solve this?
32:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: This is very fascinating because,
33:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
33:00
SPEAKER_01: usually when we look at,
33:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:03
SPEAKER_01: the media,
33:04
SPEAKER_01: our leaders in the world,
33:06
SPEAKER_01: it seems like we associate thumping your chest,
33:11
SPEAKER_01: being loud,
33:13
SPEAKER_01: telling everybody how it is and,
33:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:16
SPEAKER_01: being strong,
33:17
SPEAKER_01: being forthright and taking up space and being loud.
33:22
Seems like,
33:23
you know,
33:23
this is what people think is normal in negotiations.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think a lot of it comes from movies.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: You see this strong man,
33:31
SPEAKER_00: this is how I would do it,
33:33
SPEAKER_00: or you walk into the room and you're controlling the room.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: That is leading through power.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: That is leading through your hierarchy.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: But true leadership, it doesn't require a hierarchy.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: It requires them to be like, I trust this person.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: I like this person.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: I want to work with this person.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: So when you turn around and you go out the room,
33:59
SPEAKER_00: they're like,
33:59
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
34:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm still here with this person.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: I want to deliver for that person.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: You know,
34:04
SPEAKER_00: the other people that just demand people to do it,
34:07
SPEAKER_00: you're going to have a short term success maybe,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: or have them deliver something.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: When you're there.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: But that's not true leadership.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of it, I think, comes from movies.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: And then politicians,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: when they,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:22
SPEAKER_00: go at each other,
34:23
SPEAKER_00: they're really not negotiating with them.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: They're negotiating with the people who are watching.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: So that's really just a fake negotiation.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: It's just, you know, want to make the other person look bad.
34:37
Yes,
34:37
that's valuable for them because everyone looking is or the
34:43
ones are trying to persuade.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, a lot of empathy and asking questions.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: And a great question,
34:51
SPEAKER_00: I think,
34:51
is if you get paid less and delivering well is how am I
34:55
supposed to feel valued
34:56
SPEAKER_00: here when I'm underpaid?
35:00
SPEAKER_00: Can you answer me that?
35:03
SPEAKER_01: How am I supposed to feel valued when I'm underpaid here?
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Can you answer me that?
35:10
SPEAKER_00: Probably it's going to be very hard for you.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people would say, oh, this is not fair.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: I should earn as much as John.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: You should pay me more.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
35:29
And this is you going into attack mode and being really
35:32
aggressive,
35:33
really powerful.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: There was a time and place for that.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: But,
35:37
SPEAKER_00: but at the end of the day,
35:39
SPEAKER_00: the negotiation success doesn't rely on you telling them what to do.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't rely on you having great arguments a little bit,
35:50
SPEAKER_00: but mainly it's about you realizing,
35:54
SPEAKER_00: oh yeah,
35:55
SPEAKER_00: that's right.
35:55
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: When you come to the phrase, that's right.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I see where you're coming from.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: I'll be at it.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: I think that's right.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: I compound you with a lot of arguments, but you just might get defensive.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's what usually people do when they feel attacked.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't really matter if you're right, if your arguments are valid.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: If you attack me, the natural state is I will be defensive.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: You will attack back, be defensive.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: You'll go right into what we talked about with Daniel Kahneman.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: System one, the fast one, the quick one, aggressive one.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: And you probably act out from your ego,
36:40
SPEAKER_00: status,
36:41
SPEAKER_00: fear,
36:41
SPEAKER_00: loss of recognition,
36:44
SPEAKER_00: maintaining your hierarchy.
36:45
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: Should you also have that kind of mindset,
36:52
SPEAKER_01: that professional feeling,
36:54
SPEAKER_01: making the other person feel that you don't feel valued when it comes to
37:00
SPEAKER_01: negotiating when the power dynamic is unequal?
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so who's in power when we're negotiating?
37:11
SPEAKER_00: It's almost always the one who asks the questions.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: So for instance,
37:17
SPEAKER_00: let's say someone comes to me,
37:20
let's say I booked a meeting with someone because I want to
37:23
sell them something.
37:25
And if they're very,
37:26
you know,
37:27
demanding,
37:28
like,
37:28
oh,
37:28
ask,
37:28
so what you got for us?
37:29
SPEAKER_00: What should we buy from you?
37:32
SPEAKER_00: That's a question.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: They are in control.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: I said, then I'll reframe it and say,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, maybe we aren't a good match.
37:42
Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions just to get to
37:44
know your situation?
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And then I will explain how we might be able to help you.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, okay, go ahead.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
37:53
SPEAKER_00: a lot of times we're out and we see project managers,
37:56
SPEAKER_00: they're not really good at communicating.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: So after meetings, people aren't sure what to do.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: And then I'll mention a couple of things, really big consequences.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: Is that anything you could relate to at any level?
38:11
SPEAKER_00: And we're like, oh, yeah, of course.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: And then I'll be like,
38:14
do you mind me sharing how we've helped XYZ company solve a
38:19
similar problem?
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, go ahead.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: Then I do my pitch and I answer.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: But I don't answer before.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like, hey, I'm in control.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: So questions is usually a great way to get control back.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: So asking good questions.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: Good questions.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: Or if it's very tough,
38:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:43
SPEAKER_00: somebody speaking badly to you,
38:45
SPEAKER_00: like,
38:47
SPEAKER_00: is it really necessary with that tone?
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, I didn't really mean to.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:55
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
38:56
You know,
38:57
you kind of call them out on that,
38:58
but you're still asking a question.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: You're asking a question and not being triggered,
39:05
SPEAKER_01: and that way you bring them down a little bit.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
39:10
But had you attacked them,
39:11
had you attacked them back,
39:13
you'd raise the level.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: It's like, don't talk to me like that.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: And the struggle is on.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: Or is it still a little bit aggressive?
39:21
SPEAKER_00: Is it really necessary with that tone?
39:22
SPEAKER_00: But you're still on a nice way and see if they're paid.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, I didn't really need to.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: I just had a bad day.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no worries.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: Let's just go on, you know.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: So question is the number one thing I would say.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: And then also you can redirect them to what is really important, right?
39:45
SPEAKER_00: So let's say this is a classic one that comes up.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: It's price always, right?
39:51
SPEAKER_00: And so the services I charge, I can say they're higher than the average.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: They're not the highest.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: But if you're like, oh, wow, tools.
40:00
That's a little bit high,
40:01
you know,
40:02
so I'm like,
40:03
okay,
40:04
what are you looking for?
40:06
Like cheaper solutions or a little bit more high quality with a
40:10
higher likelihood
40:11
SPEAKER_00: of really making an impact.
40:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, oh no, we're looking for high quality.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: Because,
40:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
40:18
we're a team of 10 people I work with and we've had more than
40:21
40,000 people in our
40:22
SPEAKER_00: courses.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: And so we kind of,
40:24
SPEAKER_00: we know what works because we always evaluate with the clients and the
40:27
SPEAKER_00: participants.
40:29
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: But, but you know what?
40:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: Those sort of things.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: You kind of change the frame.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: So what's the result rather than price?
40:40
Also saying about that,
40:41
I would say,
40:42
is it,
40:43
which direction are you going into?
40:46
SPEAKER_01: So usually when people bring up the price,
40:50
SPEAKER_01: if you would give me a percentage rate,
40:53
SPEAKER_01: would you say 70% of the time you're able to convince them?
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Or does it happen that they just say no because of the price?
41:05
SPEAKER_00: So if they just want to price right up front...
41:09
SPEAKER_00: you can give that to them.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: But again,
41:12
SPEAKER_00: I would,
41:13
SPEAKER_00: I would ask them if I could,
41:14
do you mind me asking a couple of questions just to understand
41:16
your situation
41:17
SPEAKER_00: better?
41:17
SPEAKER_00: And I can give you a price because we have a lot of different services.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, okay.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: You can, you know, ask, um,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: So again, I'll try to ask questions, get them more involved with that.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: And if you basically just give a price, it's usually just a no.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: They're not interested.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're just looking for a price because they need to.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: If it's a public company,
41:42
SPEAKER_00: maybe they need to go out and get three offers,
41:43
SPEAKER_00: but they already have one.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: And I can also ask them,
41:47
SPEAKER_00: it sounds like you just need a price to come back with to someone else,
41:52
SPEAKER_00: but I'm not really someone you're
41:56
actively looking for hiring is that right well yeah it is
42:01
actually we'll kind of
42:02
have one that we already picked but we need okay do you mind me
42:06
asking uh what i'm
42:08
up against just real quick before i send you the price well we
42:12
up against xyz he's
42:13
been here for three years and okay i don't think i can do much
42:17
about it if i can't
42:19
SPEAKER_00: really it's okay here's the price
42:22
SPEAKER_00: Or if I can,
42:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:23
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
42:24
SPEAKER_00: we are a little bit more expensive,
42:25
SPEAKER_00: but what you get with us is X,
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Y,
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Z.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Could that be anything of interest?
42:30
SPEAKER_00: Adding that.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: So again, asking questions, getting to know more.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: And if they basically need the price, you also think about your own time.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Is it really worth it for you?
42:40
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just the price and then move on to someone else.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: In your experience,
42:48
SPEAKER_01: do most of the clients,
42:50
SPEAKER_01: customers start with a no,
42:54
SPEAKER_01: and then you turned into yes?
42:57
SPEAKER_00: It depends very much on the situation you have.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's an inbound that they come to me, that they're very open.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: If it's me reaching out, you have to do a lot more work to open them up.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: But of course, most people are a little bit defensive.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: I would say when you're working with companies,
43:16
SPEAKER_00: as I mainly work with,
43:18
SPEAKER_00: money is not such a big issue.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: because what is really important for them is not so much how much it is,
43:27
it's more that you're sure that it's high quality because it
43:29
would be a disaster
43:30
SPEAKER_00: for them that if I run a course day with 15 or 25 people and they say,
43:35
SPEAKER_00: hmm,
43:37
SPEAKER_00: we didn't really get that much value out of it.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: Then it doesn't matter if it was five or 10,000 or more Danish crowns,
43:44
SPEAKER_00: a hundred years,
43:45
SPEAKER_00: a hundred years,
43:47
SPEAKER_00: a thousand,
43:48
SPEAKER_00: a thousand years more.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: The assassins, people coming back and say, we lost the day.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: So they're mainly looking for quality.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: So that's in their mind.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: If it's a private person that I used to do a lot for that wants to be a
44:03
SPEAKER_00: professional speaker,
44:04
SPEAKER_00: they're very,
44:05
SPEAKER_00: how much is it?
44:06
SPEAKER_00: I need to talk to my partner.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Those sort of things because it's a private economy.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: It's different.
44:13
But for the big companies,
44:15
it's chicken legs because it's the value,
44:19
it's the results.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: And if they bring 25 people an entire day, that's weeks worth of work.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: So 25 people and you divide that by five, right?
44:35
SPEAKER_00: That's five weeks work plus loss of status in the company.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: If they hire someone that didn't deliver,
44:42
SPEAKER_00: they're like going to be mad at the HR or whoever hired you.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: No, that's not good.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: That's like, no, no, that's not good.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: No, it's not good.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: So they need to be like 99% sure that this is good.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: So then it's a different, it's not so much the payment.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's always payment that I discuss.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: Oscar,
45:03
SPEAKER_01: if we move on now,
45:06
SPEAKER_01: when one side uses a deadline or uses threats,
45:15
SPEAKER_01: what does it psychologically do to a negotiation?
45:20
SPEAKER_00: For me, threats and deadlines are very different.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: So let's do with threats first.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: When we are threatening someone, it means I'm desperate.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't have any more means to negotiate.
45:33
And I notice when,
45:34
if I'm with my kids,
45:36
I'm like,
45:37
if you don't,
45:38
this will happen.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: Like, ask her, stop it.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a bad way to go down.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: I feel triggered, right?
45:46
SPEAKER_00: You can relate, maybe.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: I think your parents can relate to that, right?
45:51
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: But it just means they're desperate with threats.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: And then again, I would just call them out on it just to be really clear.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Is this a threat?
46:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, it's not.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, and then you pause.
46:12
SPEAKER_03: Mm hmm.
46:13
or it's not helping me,
46:14
then you're threatening me for us to find a solution.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: Then I'll put it a little bit, right?
46:20
SPEAKER_00: So threats is one thing you got to deal with.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: And then there's the deadline.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: Deadline for me is, it's always flexible.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: Like when they say, we got to be done in two weeks.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: But deadlines can be moved around usually.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: So it can often be like a fake deadline or whatever.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: So just be aware of that, sometimes made up things.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and your question was, once again, with the deadline.
46:57
What the deadline and threats is,
46:59
what does it do psychologically to the negotiation?
47:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you put some pressure on.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: And I can put on a deadline of people and say,
47:08
SPEAKER_00: just for us to make a decision,
47:10
SPEAKER_00: actually to help you a little bit.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: Because I know sometimes people,
47:15
SPEAKER_00: if they don't have a deadline,
47:17
SPEAKER_00: they just keep postponing it and they never really make a decision.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Would it be okay for you?
47:21
SPEAKER_00: I send you by the offer and you give me a decision within three days.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: Of course,
47:27
SPEAKER_00: if it's something you want to discuss that's uncertain within the offer,
47:32
SPEAKER_00: let's have a new call.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Would it be okay if we made a decision in three days?
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Of course, yes, they say.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: Or do you need a week?
47:40
SPEAKER_00: All right, I'll give you a week.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: So they feel in control, but they need to make a decision.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: It is.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: So it puts pressure on.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: But I think it also needs to be done in the right way.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I need an answer from you within three days.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, no, you don't.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't want that.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: Then you're attacking me.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: And then the relationship is being hurt.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: But if it's framed as a help, it's better.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Framed as a help.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
48:13
SPEAKER_00: I think it would be beneficial for all of us.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: Give me an example.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
48:17
SPEAKER_00: like that with,
48:19
SPEAKER_00: let's say it's a private client that says,
48:20
SPEAKER_00: oh,
48:20
SPEAKER_00: I want to speak at training.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: Would you ask her?
48:23
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we had a nice talk.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: I'll send you by the office.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: You can read it.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Would it be a help that we made a decision within three days?
48:30
Because I know a lot of people,
48:32
they actually never end up making a decision.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: I've tried this a hundred times.
48:35
They say they do,
48:36
but it's just for us to either know we go with it or we don't.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: If it feels right for you, we go with it.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: If not, no worries.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, that'll be okay.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: Three days.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: Or when will you get back to me?
48:51
SPEAKER_00: When it's realistic.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: A week.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Do you mind if I call you or just reach out in 10 days?
48:59
SPEAKER_00: If you forgot about me, I know sometimes people are busy.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, that'll be okay.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: Again, I ask permission to bother them if they skip the deadline.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: Because the salesperson that calls them, oh, just call and check in.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: Don't.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: But if I agreed and made it, said, oh, it was okay that you follow up.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: And it's a little bit easier.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: You're preparing them for... Yeah, yeah, preparing them.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: Do you mind if I call you just to get things moving?
49:30
SPEAKER_00: And you know what,
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Ibrahim,
49:31
SPEAKER_00: if you're busy that day and you really don't want to talk to me,
49:35
SPEAKER_00: just say,
49:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't have time.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: Call me back in two months.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just going to be like, of course.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to ask you anything else.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: Would it be okay if I just follow up in that way?
49:47
SPEAKER_00: And you always have permission to say, not today.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: Then people are like, oh, I can get that salesperson out of the phone.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm tapping into that world.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: But I'm still using deadlines.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, deadlines.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that kind of answered your question.
50:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: Or we went off to a tangent.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: No, it did.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: It did.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: Because it does something psychologically to the other person.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: But the one part of the question was threats.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: The threats is put on... It hurts the relationship always.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: No one ever likes to be threatened.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: So threats might make you do something right away.
50:35
You know,
50:36
but what about the next negotiation or the next or the next or
50:40
the next or the next?
50:42
SPEAKER_00: If you're a leader and say,
50:43
SPEAKER_00: if you don't have this report finished by five today,
50:45
SPEAKER_00: you're not going to be able to work on the other project next year.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: Like that's not very nice.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: You're threatening me.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: I'll probably have the project done by five.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: That can be pretty sure.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: But the day that the tide turns and I have a chance to,
51:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:05
SPEAKER_00: regain influence or make you be in a bad light,
51:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm definitely going to do that.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, you've just lost all trust, all likability.
51:14
SPEAKER_00: So it's a short-term gain threatening people.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: Short-term gain, yeah.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: Short-term gain.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: And if you're in this for a long time, don't have to do that.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we see that clearly.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: This is not about politics, Asger, obviously.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: But we see that clearly in politics.
51:35
Because I think in the next one or two weeks,
51:37
we might have a war in the Middle East.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: And I know that they are negotiating right now.
51:44
And the president has said a deadline,
51:47
I think it was a 10-day deadline or two weeks deadline.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: If they don't have a deal, he'll escalate or use force.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:57
And that's going to be interesting to sit in the room and see
52:03
how those diplomats
52:04
SPEAKER_01: are negotiating.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: Very, very interesting how they negotiate.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: Again, I think the deadline is flexible.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: We've seen it a hundred times with Trump.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: Like that deadline has been moved on.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's kind of lost a little bit of value within that.
52:22
And yeah,
52:23
it's going to be interesting to see if those threats can
52:27
actually work.
52:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
52:37
So that leads to another question,
52:40
because now we've talked about unequal power.
52:42
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about deadlines.
52:43
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about the use of threats.
52:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:47
What responsibility do you think the most powerful party carry
52:53
in a negotiation?
52:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
52:56
SPEAKER_00: what I really think is critical,
52:58
SPEAKER_00: and also just at workplaces or at home,
53:01
SPEAKER_00: wherever you are,
53:03
SPEAKER_00: when you're in the one in control,
53:05
SPEAKER_00: is to create psychological safety.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: That's one.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: What is psychological safety?
53:13
That means I can ask the questions that are a little bit hard
53:18
for me,
53:19
that are a little bit...
53:22
know what to to your manager or your boss you know um it's
53:27
actually bothering me a
53:28
little bit every time we have our meetings uh in the department
53:32
there's never
53:33
really an agenda and the thing is i feel we lose a little bit
53:37
time and i have told
53:40
SPEAKER_00: you this before but i feel you you
53:43
SPEAKER_00: You still haven't really done it.
53:44
It's really important for me that we get a little bit more
53:47
structured on that.
53:49
Now that's for most people would be a challenge to go up to
53:52
your manager and say that.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: But if there is safety, the manager's like, I'm so great to say that.
53:59
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much because the meeting in the end is for you.
54:01
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I did that to you.
54:03
SPEAKER_00: So creating a safe environment and you don't create a safe environment,
54:07
SPEAKER_00: but it's like,
54:07
SPEAKER_00: oh,
54:07
SPEAKER_00: my door is always open.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: You do it by saying,
54:12
SPEAKER_00: having empathy,
54:13
SPEAKER_00: but also asking questions like,
54:15
SPEAKER_00: okay,
54:16
SPEAKER_00: what's the one thing that frustrates you most in this department?
54:19
SPEAKER_00: Or what's the one thing I could do better to run this department?
54:23
And you don't just ask it once because the first time,
54:25
like,
54:25
yeah,
54:26
you know,
54:26
it's kind of like,
54:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
54:28
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
54:28
SPEAKER_00: we could have a new coffee machine or maybe we could bring cake,
54:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:32
SPEAKER_00: every Friday,
54:33
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: Like,
54:35
SPEAKER_00: but you ask the fifth or the sixth time,
54:37
SPEAKER_00: like,
54:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:38
SPEAKER_00: it pisses me off every time that we have our meetings.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: You're five minutes late.
54:43
SPEAKER_00: There's no agenda.
54:44
And whenever somebody says a good idea,
54:47
it's always like,
54:48
do you want to take that one?
54:49
SPEAKER_00: You go with that one, you know, right?
54:53
SPEAKER_00: That really pisses me off.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: Right.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: Can you say that?
54:57
So you've got to ask questions that are difficult and show that
55:00
you're genuinely
55:01
SPEAKER_00: interested in them helping them.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: That's creating a safe environment.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: And most departments that was actually studied on this,
55:12
SPEAKER_00: it was a hospital where this thing came out with psychological safety.
55:18
They were measuring the amount of mistakes that the doctors and
55:22
the nurses reported
55:24
and then they were measuring how well the departments within
55:28
the hospitals were doing.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Those departments that reported more mistakes had fewer fatalities.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: They had patients recovered quicker, faster.
55:39
SPEAKER_00: Whereas the other one that reported fewer mistakes
55:42
SPEAKER_00: More mistakes, more fatalities.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, no, this can't be right.
55:47
The reason was there was safety in the other one to share
55:51
things they were
55:52
SPEAKER_00: concerned about,
55:53
SPEAKER_00: things that weren't working as well so they could fix it.
55:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
55:59
SPEAKER_00: So that is the number one rule, I think.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: When you're in power, making the other one feel safe and valued.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
56:12
SPEAKER_01: Great term.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: Psychological safety.
56:14
SPEAKER_01: Psychological safety.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
56:16
So one practical thing I did when I was a high school teacher
56:19
here in Denmark,
56:20
SPEAKER_00: I used to work as a high school teacher.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: The problem is I give them the grade, but I also help them.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: That's a problem.
56:28
Because if they come to me and say,
56:30
Oscar,
56:30
I'm really struggling with this thing.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, you're not doing so well.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: low grade for you, my friend, right?
56:39
SPEAKER_00: So,
56:40
SPEAKER_00: or they're afraid to challenge me because they think that grades were,
56:45
SPEAKER_00: was based on how much I liked them,
56:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:47
SPEAKER_00: likability plus skill.
56:49
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully it wasn't and purely skill.
56:53
SPEAKER_03: Um,
56:53
Of course,
56:54
anybody that's a human being can be affected without thinking
56:58
about it.
56:58
SPEAKER_00: But an ideal world only skill.
57:01
So what I would do is I would pick a couple of students,
57:03
too,
57:04
and say,
57:05
you know what?
57:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to walk out this room now 15, 20 minutes.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: And you now fill out a form here in the classroom.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: What is working well?
57:17
SPEAKER_00: What am I doing?
57:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like, OK, what is not working?
57:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, what should I stop doing or should we stop doing?
57:24
SPEAKER_00: What should be changed?
57:25
SPEAKER_00: Ideas for change.
57:27
SPEAKER_00: And then a list of other things.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: And I'll go out the room and all of you discuss that and put it up.
57:34
SPEAKER_00: Now, be nice to me.
57:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm a human being.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: So respectfully, just put it up there and we have a talk.
57:39
So that means when I could come in the room,
57:41
like,
57:41
okay,
57:42
Ollie,
57:42
you have that point.
57:43
SPEAKER_00: Anybody want to elaborate what was meant?
57:45
SPEAKER_00: So they all kind of ended together rather than the individual.
57:50
SPEAKER_00: Because I knew there wouldn't come them individually.
57:53
SPEAKER_00: Maybe some would, but often not.
57:57
SPEAKER_00: That is for me creating safety and trust with them.
58:01
So I can't pick,
58:02
oh,
58:02
that was you that didn't like me doing that,
58:05
you know?
58:07
SPEAKER_00: So that's a practical way in a classroom setting to do that.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: That was a great example.
58:12
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
58:13
SPEAKER_01: That was a great example.
58:15
SPEAKER_01: A leader has a responsibility, like you say, psychological safety.
58:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm a soccer referee.
58:23
and usually when i referee games i can within the five within
58:28
the few first five
58:29
ten minutes depending how the the coach is behaving how he's
58:35
taking care of his
58:36
players if he's in control if he's calm collected usually the
58:42
players are also calm
58:43
SPEAKER_01: and collected and focused on the game
58:46
SPEAKER_01: But usually if you have a coach that is angry,
58:49
SPEAKER_01: agitated,
58:50
SPEAKER_01: nervous,
58:53
SPEAKER_01: shouting,
58:53
SPEAKER_01: screaming,
58:55
SPEAKER_01: the players will also mirror his behavior.
59:00
SPEAKER_01: And this is a great example.
59:02
SPEAKER_01: As a leader,
59:02
SPEAKER_01: you have that responsibility,
59:04
SPEAKER_01: just like you say,
59:05
SPEAKER_01: to make people feel safe and valued.
59:09
SPEAKER_01: Psychological safety.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: Your referee position, that's demanding.
59:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, it is.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: It's about handling emotions.
59:21
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
59:22
As a referee,
59:24
sometimes you have to raise your voice when you're really not
59:27
negotiating.
59:28
But if you're not building trust with the players,
59:33
you're not going to have an easy game.
59:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think build trust and if you can, a little bit of likability.
59:41
One of my friends,
59:41
he's actually also a football coach and sometimes I complain
59:44
about him.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: And yes,
59:45
it's a joke he always uses and says the level of the referee
59:50
corresponds to the
59:51
SPEAKER_00: level of the players.
59:53
And so kind of like,
59:54
okay,
59:54
if I suck,
59:55
you know,
59:55
the lower ranks get the lower referees.
59:58
So you can use that if it's in the lower league and they kind
1:00:01
of laugh a little bit.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can use it.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm actually the lower referee, so I'll definitely use it.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_00: Let me know how it works.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about resistance, right?
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: When people say no,
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: we've talked about powerful questions to ask as well,
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: asking questions,
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: because when you ask questions,
1:00:25
you are basically in control and you're also able to direct the
1:00:30
conversation
1:00:30
SPEAKER_01: towards a certain path.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
1:00:34
But there are certain negotiations where,
1:00:37
you know,
1:00:38
you're always reaching a dead end.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_01: And my question is, what signals tell you that it's time to walk away?
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: you do your preparation before you come in and you think about,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_00: OK,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_00: what's the minimum thing I can accept and deal with?
1:00:55
And I think if you've been curious and you've asked a lot of
1:00:58
good questions and you feel OK,
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: we're probably not going to meet,
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: ends meet,
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: it's not going to make sense,
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: then,
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: I think it's time to move on and make a better deal somewhere else.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_00: We always have options.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_00: So if you've been curious,
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: asking questions,
1:01:14
you feel you know there's a situation and they can't give you
1:01:17
what you want,
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: then I think it's time to walk away.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: So if they can't give you what you want?
1:01:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you've been curious about it.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_00: But I would say, you know, often don't slam the door, right?
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: You can make a little opener and say, oh, I wasn't picked this time.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: Is the door totally closed for future possibilities to work together?
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, no, no, we just want another trainer this time.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh, great.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_00: Do you mind if I just kind of reach out in six months to just have a...
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: short coffee chat and see if there might be some options.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, you can do that.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: I'll put it in my calendar and reach out then.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:01
there's a door totally closed if they went with another one
1:02:04
that was cheaper and
1:02:05
SPEAKER_00: you don't want to go with that low price.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes the best thing you can do is to move on as well.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_01: I remember when I started off my speaking career,
1:02:20
I had a client and he gave me an assignment and I did the
1:02:26
assignment and I
1:02:27
SPEAKER_01: presented it to him and also to the HR manager.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_01: But I really never got feedback.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: So I kept reaching out.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: I kept reaching out.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_01: And I always kept getting the same answer.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to you.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to you.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_01: But then over time, they just stopped responding.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: And I think if it happened today,
1:02:49
I would probably have moved on much earlier than I did four or
1:02:57
five years ago.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:03:00
SPEAKER_00: and maybe it also comes from,
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: you're in a good position,
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:03:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:03
SPEAKER_00: regularly getting clients.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_00: But of course,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_00: also when you're maybe a little bit newer,
1:03:07
SPEAKER_00: you have a little fewer clients or leads,
1:03:10
SPEAKER_00: you might be hanging on a little bit more to them.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: But it can at some point lower your status if you keep reaching out.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: I have a phrase that I use,
1:03:18
SPEAKER_00: which I picked up from Chris Voss in his book,
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: a really great book on negotiation,
1:03:23
SPEAKER_00: which is,
1:03:24
SPEAKER_00: have you given up on the project?
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: That's just it.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Linda.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_00: Have you given up on the project?
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: I tell you,
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: man,
1:03:32
SPEAKER_00: nine out of 10 times they answer back,
1:03:34
SPEAKER_00: no,
1:03:34
SPEAKER_00: no,
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: we were just busy,
1:03:36
SPEAKER_00: blah,
1:03:36
SPEAKER_00: blah,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: blah.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_00: They feel a little bit of shame that they don't reach out to you.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_00: And that's like my last go-to.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: If they don't get back to me on that one, move on.
1:03:49
SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: Did you say the book was called Negotiations?
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: It's called Never Split the Difference.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_00: Really a classic within negotiation.
1:03:58
A lot of the course I do or we do have techniques from that one
1:04:06
just applied to the
1:04:07
SPEAKER_00: engineering world.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_00: So, so that's a question.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_00: It's, it's just one phrase.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: There's not a whole bonsai.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: How you doing?
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: Just checking in kind of thing.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: No.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: Boom.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: One phrase.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to answer.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_01: Move on.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: Move on.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: What's the author's name?
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: Chris Voss.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_00: He's an FBI hostage negotiator.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: And it's very practical advice.
1:04:33
I've probably read the book three,
1:04:34
maybe four times,
1:04:36
certain chapters four times.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_01: Great.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_01: I'll make sure I'll get it.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: So good.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_01: I have two more questions for you, Asger.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_01: And the first one is,
1:04:49
what one practice would you recommend to somebody who is going
1:04:54
to negotiate with
1:04:57
The one practice I probably would go in with is the mindset of,
1:05:02
I wanna understand you.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, being the curious mindset.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay, what's preventing you?
1:05:09
SPEAKER_00: What's holding you back?
1:05:10
SPEAKER_00: What do you try before?
1:05:11
SPEAKER_00: Why is this a problem to you?
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: Just curiosity, you know?
1:05:16
SPEAKER_00: And,
1:05:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:05:18
SPEAKER_00: if they can feel I'm curious,
1:05:20
SPEAKER_00: really genuinely trying to help you,
1:05:23
SPEAKER_00: then a lot of good things can happen.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_00: It can also be, oh, no, we just need a one day, you know, one hour.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_00: And then I'll be honest and say,
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: I can come, you know, and I can entertain and give a few inspiration.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: But just to be honest,
1:05:37
it's not really going to make a difference on the budget for
1:05:41
your department in the
1:05:42
SPEAKER_00: long term.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_00: You still want me to come.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: I can come and give you a one hour pep talk just to be,
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: but just to be frank,
1:05:48
SPEAKER_00: it's not going to make a difference.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_00: That's, you know, being curious and honest as well.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_01: Be curious and honest before you go into the negotiation.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_00: That's your mindset is, I want to help this person.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_00: I want to understand their situation.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_00: So many people go, oh, I would like to share with you a couple of things.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: Why?
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: It's on me.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious on you and your situation.
1:06:18
So basically,
1:06:18
you know what you want,
1:06:20
but you're also aware of what's in it for them.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you really want to help them.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how can you help them?
1:06:26
And of course,
1:06:27
you know where you want to go,
1:06:29
but you also want to have an open mindset.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_00: Things can change, whatever, you know, oh, we do three courses.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_00: Sure, we find a nice deal for you or whatever.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_01: Great.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_01: Asker, before I ask you the last question.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything I should have asked you today?
1:06:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh, man, I think your questions are so good.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_00: Really lovely, awesome questions.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_00: You got so much empathy.
1:06:58
SPEAKER_00: You're curious, you're a good listener.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_00: So no, I don't think so.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_00: I think we covered really a lot of good stuff.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I would say one thing that's a really nice tip is to pause.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, you ask the question, you pause, and you see what happens.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_00: People don't pause it when they walk.
1:07:22
SPEAKER_00: They're so afraid of the silence.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_00: You have power when you pause.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_00: It connects with the other person.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_00: So some work pauses,
1:07:32
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very simple technique people can use,
1:07:35
SPEAKER_00: but they often forget it.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: And also, I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with the pause.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
1:07:46
So,
1:07:46
for instance,
1:07:46
I remember one time a client asked me,
1:07:51
how much do you charge?
1:07:53
SPEAKER_01: And I said my price, and he didn't say anything.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_01: And I just wanted to fill that pause with, oh, I'm so sorry.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_01: I can give you a discount.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:08:05
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
1:08:06
I mean,
1:08:06
I've been there,
1:08:08
you know,
1:08:08
it's like stated end price and then shut up.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_01: But he told me, he said, no, your price is good.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_01: Just relax.
1:08:19
SPEAKER_01: Your price is fine.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_00: But if it is a little bit high,
1:08:22
SPEAKER_00: you can prepare them and say,
1:08:24
SPEAKER_00: most people get really surprised about the normal prices we charge.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: that I charge, like, oh, it's really expensive.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: And then you mentioned your price,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: okay,
1:08:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:35
SPEAKER_00: sure,
1:08:36
SPEAKER_00: it's a little bit more than standard prices in the market,
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: but,
1:08:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:40
SPEAKER_00: we can find that.
1:08:42
The last question that I ask all of my guests is,
1:08:46
one advice for a better,
1:08:48
more meaningful life?
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: That's such a great question.
1:08:51
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Manfred.
1:08:52
And I thought a little bit about it because you sent me the
1:08:54
questions before,
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: or some of the questions.
1:08:56
For me,
1:08:58
coming from an engineering background and in a family,
1:09:02
I grew up with a lot of science.
1:09:04
That being kind of within the family is that I was taught to
1:09:08
use the logics.
1:09:09
SPEAKER_00: Wow,
1:09:10
SPEAKER_00: this looks good on paper,
1:09:11
SPEAKER_00: get a good education,
1:09:13
SPEAKER_00: work your way up in a company,
1:09:15
SPEAKER_00: and so forth.
1:09:15
SPEAKER_00: Nothing wrong with that.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_00: But what I've learned over the years,
1:09:19
SPEAKER_00: for things to be right,
1:09:21
SPEAKER_00: it first and foremost has to feel right.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_00: So if it feels right for me to run courses,
1:09:30
SPEAKER_00: speak on stages,
1:09:32
SPEAKER_00: do certain things,
1:09:34
SPEAKER_00: then of course,
1:09:34
SPEAKER_00: those who use a little bit of logic,
1:09:36
SPEAKER_00: okay,
1:09:36
SPEAKER_00: does this make sense to do?
1:09:38
SPEAKER_00: But the go-to strategy is make it feel right.
1:09:44
Because in the West,
1:09:45
we have so much tendency to focus on the rational,
1:09:48
the logical thing.
1:09:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that would be my best tip.
1:09:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Oscar.
1:09:56
I loved how you tied your introduction with,
1:09:59
it feels right to do what you do today.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_01: And you tied it to the last question, do what feels right.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_01: I have enjoyed this conversation.
1:10:09
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for all of the information.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_01: And I'm taking with me a lot of stuff here today.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_01: Most people want to be understood.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_01: You told us that negotiation is about solving problems.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_01: You also told me about the five whys, asking the five whys.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_01: And most people want to feel valued.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_01: And you also mentioned professional feeling.
1:10:36
And what I also love is when you said true leadership is not
1:10:40
about hierarchy.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_01: It's about psychological safety.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_01: Oscar, thank you for a great conversation.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:10:53
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
1:11:00
SPEAKER_01: share it with someone you care about,
1:11:02
SPEAKER_01: a friend,
1:11:03
SPEAKER_01: a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
1:11:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm Ibrahim.
1:11:11
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.