Latest / GOOD CEOs / Possibly The Most Hireable CEO?!
Transcript
- Ollie: Hello and welcome back to Good CEOs. Today we're joined by Lisa de Bonis. And for those of you who don't know, Lisa is basically the most decorated and wonderful human beings in this industry. There is not a place that she hasn't been and transformed. She began her career in Paris. then she spent most of her career here in London where she worked at Mother. She built her own agency, WorkClub, sold that to Havas, then joined Accenture, then joined Huge, managed to take Huge out of IPG whilst productizing their entire commercial model. And now she is the UK CEO at Brandtech. So incredibly hardworking, driven, always about five years or 10 years or sometimes even 20 years in the future. I brought Lisa on because I wanted to speak, yes, about... productizing huge and exiting IPG and looking for PE and seeing how that process was. But more than anything, I'm really curious on hearing what Lisa thinks about the future. Because if there was one woman in this industry that could tell us where the world is heading, it would be her. And she does not disappoint. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Let's get into it. Lisa de Bonis I feel like there aren't many people that have had the experience that you've had. So Mother, massive, independent, beautiful work, arguably the best agency in the world. there, I guess, you know, starting your career, moving to work clubs, starting your own business that then gets acquired by Havas and then moving from being at Havas to possibly one of the most corporate businesses that you can join, which is Accenture Song. It's now known as. and then joining Huge and then exiting IPG, taking private equity, moving out of Huge and now joining Brand Tech Group, you have like one of the most, I would say like perfect squiggly careers in a weird way. But that's like the kind of the profile, the LinkedIn profile of it. I want to know which three to five year period are you most proud of? Lisa De Bonis: And it's gonna be the one you didn't reference. Ollie: no! I thought I Lisa De Bonis: No, it's all good. It's all good. And and it's actually makes the point. So my first job in the industry was in Paris for a creative agency called BDDPetFils they're still around. They were the offshoot, the most creative agency in the country for many years, actually. They were the Mother of Paris. And the reason It actually in hindsight, I call it out as my the most important period was because it was the result of failure, if you want to use today's kind of in the sense that I came out of uni here. I I did the rounds of the agencies, I got to like the final five after a grueling four or five day, process, you know, gr an undergraduate re process, you know, those grad post grad sort of internship processes and everything. And I didn't make the cut and because I was probably me and I didn't quite, you know, fit the mold and so I packed my bags and I went to Paris without a job to go to. And I hustled and I got some temporary stuff and then I ended up at the PetFils where I learned, you know, the trade in a foreign language. which I always say does funny things to your brain and I went from account management to new business to planning. and it was in that context that I got poached by Robert Savile at mother. And that's the rest of the So hustle, resilience, got comfortable with being uncomfortable all the time. Ollie: like how did you, could you speak French before you did that? Lisa De Bonis: I could, yes, yes. Ollie: I can't do it in London, I'm gonna try it in France. Lisa De Bonis: And I had done I'd spent every summer of my uni career working and trying different stuff out from investment banking, by the way, Morgan Stanley, very fun, a lot of partying at the time here in London. to like a UN agency in Italy, because I had connections there and I wanted to try something different. to like the most random startup thing. And then one of the jobs was was for CLM BBDO in the new business department for an amazing kick-ass American woman called Robin and and that's where I felt and that's where I made that first connection. So when I came back to the UK to finish my degree, I you know that that's where I I packed my bags and I went to Paris and I said, Do you have a job? And they said no and so I found something else and then six months later they said we have a job. Ollie: I get this like really rare, sadly, sense of like self belief when I speak to you because it takes either a certain level of madness or genuine Lisa De Bonis: Okay. Ollie: talent or just like bravery to do what you did and say yes to you know, Morgan Stanley and all of these crazy places. It's a deeper question, but what like, what happened? in your past to make you have that self-belief? Was it like an incredible upbringing? Was it being exposed to challenge when you were younger? Lisa De Bonis: Gosh. I mean, no, I was I was I was a very I was lucky, I think, you know. I can't I had a very good upbringing. ultimately probably a bit privileged compared to the norm. but I think my father was a mechanical engineer and believed in hard work. He always joked when I said I was an account exec, or even when I actually became a proper executive, he was like, My engineers have thirty years experience. They don't I don't even call them directors. What Ollie: Hahaha Lisa De Bonis: you know, he's a kind of person that used to think, to be on time you had to be early. he worked hard. he worked hard. And and my mother, is is originally from Chile, went to Texas, left as quickly as she could when she was eighteen, did the Erasmus program in the sixties or seventies, whenever it was. Like I think in hindsight, I just was brought up by hard working parents who just had their values. values straight, you know. And then yes, my upbringing was super international. And so when you're exposed from a very young age to different cultures and different languages and different backgrounds, I don't think I have a this self-belief that I can do anything. I'm just my norm is to be in constant change and in situations that are uncomfortable or unfamiliar. That's my that's my normal. That's my normal. Yeah. Ollie: is there a person, like one person that's had the biggest Lisa De Bonis: Yeah. Ollie: impression of your career or even it could be life as well? Lisa De Bonis: That was a tough one to think about, but I am gonna go for John Claydon. Ollie: Okay. Lisa De Bonis: I crossed path he was the chairman of Work Club. Prior to that, he was a very successful trader that then invested in Clayton Healy. So he was the the Clayton of Clayton Healy that was part of that group. But now he's just a very successful tech entrepreneur and investor. and he remains to this day a mentor and a friend and someone I stay in touch with and I think the reason I chose him was on the one hand, he was he always saw The next thing. I remember when we were at work club, he was telling me it's all about data. And I was Yeah, my John, I don't, yeah, but that's you know, I came from you know, it's all about tech. it's like you need to get yourself out there, you need to do more PR. And I was Yeah, but I don't like self-promotion. He's like, I don't know. And ultimately, he's one of those real feminists, you know. Ollie: Hmm. Lisa De Bonis: He comes from a different time and he is but he is actually one of the most modern and creative and alternative thinkers I think I've come across and he's always been a real you know, a real support to me and a real guid guide. Ollie: Wow, what a man. Also like 20 years ago, that is unique. Like it feels kind of, we're Lisa De Bonis: That's exactly right. That's it. Ollie: conditioned now. But that then would have been definitely like a different kind of person. And I imagine like knowing who you've worked for before and everything else, probably a little bit different to where you come from too. I want to, before I move into now, because I really want to get into like a bit of your story and talking through the IPG exit and everything like that. Is there a piece of work because You've come from big advertising. You've gone to, I guess, more innovative tech, digital content. I'm trying to find the word to describe work club of Accenture Lisa De Bonis: Mm-hmm. Ollie: and Huge. And you kind of like, you've moved much more into kind of digital innovation and stayed in that world. But is there one piece of work that you feel most proud of in that span? Lisa De Bonis: Yeah, and it was during the work club era. It was for Ollie: of Lisa De Bonis: Durex. It was called SI which stood for sexual intelligence. It was essentially a personal digital sex guru powered by AI that would answer questions and insecurities for teens. it was a bold experiment that we rolled out. in Russia out of all markets. And here's the killer, it was I think twenty sixteen. Ollie: I was gonna say, because work club finished for you at 2016. Lisa De Bonis: We did yeah, exactly. It was then. It was just in the cusp of I think we were either already in talks with Havas or maybe we'd started that partnership or as in we'd sold. but it was during that back end. And you know, A of course I'm saying th there was ideas we came up with during those times that were just so so ahead of their times. And actually there's a learning right there. You can come up with all the best ideas in the world, but if the market is not ready for them, you know, that that's an idea that would actually thrive now and drive Ollie: Yeah. Lisa De Bonis: growth because it was strategically sound. It was about the Durex wanted to be obviously a trusted advisor to teens and essentially You know, they're gonna go for the information wherever they can find it because that's just what you know, th those years of your life are about. And essentially there's this great bit of insight work that had been done with Google that proved that they were going they were using porn essentially to to get their knowledge, right? Because they're not gonna ask their friends or their parents. Anyway, so I remember exactly where I was. I was walking to work, I was on the phone with Andy. I may have been walking the dog. I mean all the cliches, you know, I was walking to work with my dog to my startup, with my creative on the phone. And and I came up with it with him in that walk. And you know, it epitomizes that moment, which was that creativity now, you know, you could have ideas, you know, ultimately I'm a strategist, I'm a I'm a business person, I'm a creative entrepreneur, whatever you want to call me, but I I wasn't a a creative in the way it was defined back then. Right. but we had gotten to a point in our world where, you know, ideas of that nature could actually come to life because the technology was getting there and because society and culture was getting there. and I'm super proud of that. I was that we came up with it together, we made it happen against all odds. We had an incredible sponsor on the Wreck side, Mark Pearson, I still remember his name, and and by Hook or by Crook. We got it we made it and we we launched it in a couple of markets and obviously then he moved on and you know, it became more of a a a test and an experiment than a scaled rollout. But it was twenty sixteen. Ollie: How do you, I mean, it sounds awesome, but like 10 years ago, AI, like I wouldn't even know now AI's obviously it's in our hands, it's everywhere. Where do you even go? Like how, what was AI like then? Was it as responsive? Lisa De Bonis: I mean, again, you know, the more technical people will make a distinction. it was large language models of the time, you know, and it was the we're we were able to create, I mean I still I I still remember it was a it was a chat bot basically, you know. They basically used all of the inputs from Google searches because we did it in partnership with Google. and all of the thought leadership and the the the there was a lot of studies and I think data that Rackit themselves had. There was probably a partnership with, you know, some very credible academic institution. so it was just loads of data, loads of content being essentially organized and you know, delivered through an interface in in response to, specific queries. Ollie: It's awesome. I want to get into the last five years. So obviously, like, we're going to jump the Accenture moment. So no offense, Accenture, but, Yeah. Lisa De Bonis: No problem. No, it's great, but that's fine. Ollie: Yeah, well, you move into the huge, right? So there are so many things I want to ask you about that period. I mean, the first time I ever met you is because I reached out to you to discuss the book that was Madison Avenue makeover, I think it was. Lisa De Bonis: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ollie: And for those that didn't read it or don't know about it, it's written by a guy called Michael Farmer, who is I think ex-Bain Consulting. And I think it's basically turned his life quest into understanding the commercial models behind Madison Avenue or AdLand. You follow him and he's still writing about it today. He's absolutely a man on a mission. And in that book, the idea was to go with huge and help them essentially, I'm going to botch this, but productize what was a service-based business. And before I ask you about the exiting IPG, I want to just focus on that for a moment. Everyone is speaking about this now, right? So that was how many years ago when you were productizing then. Lisa De Bonis: brr t twenty two. Tw yeah, twenty two. 'Cause it started in Ollie: 2022, okay. Lisa De Bonis: September twenty one and essentially the first thing we did was work with the D BMC, who you know very well, to build the case for change, transformation, and it was through that program that we started embarking on on the productization of the offering. So yeah, it would have been twenty two. Ollie: Okay, so four years ago, right, and we're still saying, you know, the pricing model needs to change and outcome pricing. And I think like that was happening before AI was a risk at all. It was still kind of like, this thing's, you know, it's coming, but it's not that important. That was happening then. So I don't think it's outdated because I think you would have key learnings in there, but I'd love to know as you reflect on that time, what were the... What were the successes of that process and where were their pitfalls where if you were an agency founder going through that process now, what would your advice be to them? Lisa De Bonis: So the successes I often articulate as I practice what we preach, which is outcomes. So, you know, ultimately if I step back, what did I get out of what did the business and the people get out of that process? And I talk about three things. I talk about a more commercial mindset, I talk about building capability, and I talk about a culture shift really. a mindset, you know, we often talk about it's about mindset and model. if you don't change the mindset you won't change the model. Ollie: Yeah, I agree. Lisa De Bonis: you know, let me do it in the or haven't thought about this in a while, but capability. So that process forced us or gave us I think the the agency to build new capabilities that would then help prove the value of design in that case and creativity. And so by new capabilities I mean specifically data and eventually called AI, right? hired a completely new leader, built a new capability that built our platform that then allowed us to just be a lot more tech enabled when it came to strategy, which then helped us build the case for creativity. So the so we built new capability. The commercial model is at the heart of it, right? Which is we started selling differently and pricing differently. but I think the biggest one is culture. So, to mobilize that organization and to do what we did, we needed to just have whole set of new conversations. So for example, we became much more transparent about where we were as a business. And we had to make them understand, you know, in some cases, I don't want to sound patronizing, it's gonna sound that way, but like how we make money and how we're not making money. and the value of making money for their own career growth, right? And and their craft. and then we started Really reinforcing the importance of being client-centric and being outcomes driven. So, you know, don't talk to me about how beautiful this is and and and you know the importance of craft of this website. Ask yourself, that's important, but ask yourself why are we doing this in the first place? Why are we building this app, this platform? Why are we designing it in this way? What are we trying to achieve for the the customer, for the brand, for the client? And the talent is phenomenal, right? They just hadn't been focusing on the why. and so I think that's what we did. I think we really built a culture that was much more client centric, outcomes driven, commercially fluent, it's maybe a an overstretch, but aware. and so that's what I'm really proud of. And then, you know, the pitfalls you asked. Ollie: yeah. pause. just on this point, this is really risky. you, know, huge, I'm going to guess like... at its biggest probably near 500 million top line revenue or circa a large number. changed our product and our whole operational model, but we're a 20 person business. Okay, there's less risk on the table. There are less employees and mortgages that need to get paid. We also haven't got a holding company looking for our EBIT not to go anywhere, but up and to the right. So number one is like, Were there red flashing lights on the dashboard at the time which said there were no other options other than to do this? Or was this a five year bet that we know is going to be the right one to make right now? Okay. Lisa De Bonis: Both. And that that that's why the case for change is so important, which is what we do with our clients today, right? As well. All agency partners should be doing this. You need to build the case. So we had a case for change which was based on threat and opportunity. We could see you know, growth was flatlining, and we could see that, what got us here do won't get us there kind of expression. So we needed we needed to change. Ollie: so the pitfalls. Lisa De Bonis: The pitfalls was we did too much too fast, actually. Yeah, In the sense that, you know, and I think we didn't meet the market and some of our clients where they were. So for some it worked. Because that's the that's the other truth, you know. You you you can't as per the sort of great title that Caroline I think pitched for an IPA thing that we did to get Caroline from the business model company, Ollie: if you haven't already. Lisa De Bonis: you know, how do you rewire the house and whilst keeping the lights on or something like that. You know, y you don't do these transformations inside out all together all at once. That would be ridiculous, you know. you need To be very thoughtful and transition the work and the people and the clients obviously at the right time and in the right way for them. If not, it all falls down. So I think you know, we I think in the first wave in hindsight, I moved particularly I I moved very fast in with some teams in productizing, you know, in quite extreme ways and going to market in a very different way. Mm Matt at the time was CEO and you know, that's what he that was his direction and his vision. And I think in hindsight, it was too much too fast, you know? but then we learned. and I think this the program was also very sophisticated and had lots of dimensions and in hindsight, simplicity always wins. So we could have done less. Ollie: But the headline is it was a success and huge today is still living with that same commercial model that is still within existence, right? that? Okay. Lisa De Bonis: You'll need to ask them. Ollie: So let's talk about IPG moving out of IPG at that time. I find it really strange that the most innovative and progressive businesses within two years of each other left that group. And I have my own theories about that, I won't put you on the spot to answer, but I find that interesting. RGA and HUGE both departing the IPG group, which is now obviously part of Omnicom. What was that experience like? Because then you went out and I guess looked for different acquirers of huge, which I can't imagine you thought was going to be on your bingo card when you took the CEO role at huge. What an incredible two years. you entirely productized the business, changed the model, taking them on this huge transformation. It's gone really well. And then, by the way, can you guys look for an acquirer? Thanks very much for your tenure. A, how did that feel and B, what did you do. Lisa De Bonis: Did it feel? Well, I think I take you back to you know packing my bags and going to Paris without a job. It's like, okay, let's go, you know. look, our industry is under an immense pressure, and businesses like huge, ultimately you know, are specialists in a certain capability and actually are modest in scale. And when you're under you know so much pressure and the industry is going through so much change, it's very hard to grow. So, the transform transformation takes three to five years. And I think where we were successful is we rebooted, we reset, we built stronger capabilities and stronger commercial grounding culture and story. We had a we repositioned at that point. When I took over as as CEO, we had now all the evidence to reposition as being the experts in intelligent experience, or really you know, own the AI narrative in the context of CX. It's that that was valuable. all of those learnings packaged up and the leadership team that I designed and and you know nurtured over that period is essentially why there was a case to buy for PE. and so I g that that's why I went there because it's like when you've done those three revs, right? You land, you're like, Okay, we gotta transform this thing. then we restructured, reorganized, et cetera. I mean ultimately it was just like, okay Let's go. Like it's just another, you know, it's another crazy thing that I need to do and it's not like you have a choice. But I was like, I'm not gonna walk away. I think we've just we're starting to rebuild something really interesting. Let's go. This will be interesting. for me it made sense, you know, in hindsight. because especially once the Omnicom news broke, it was a strategic move and and I understand it and I think and so that's that's why I was going on Asari about the scale because ultimately whilst we were part of IPG, we were operating like an independent organization, really. And I don't believe, I didn't believe then and I st I think I still don't believe now, that an organization of that size that is single capability can grow. at the pace that is needed without some sort of structure and scale, some mechanism for greater scale. And so, it made sense to me. It made sen you know, I just get I always get into the other person's shoes and Philippe when he he sort of asked me or told me that this was that Ollie: Haha Lisa De Bonis: we were gonna go into this process. He didn't ask me. Ollie: Haha Lisa De Bonis: But you know, I was like, Okay, it makes sense. He believed in huge he had a real, real soft spot for Huge. He was part of the acquisition way back. You know, he had a soft spot for Huge. I I think he saw the potential, but he just realized that in the business as as as it was then, and I didn't know about Omnicom at the time, but obviously he did. and I remember actually he said something like this. He said this isn't the right home for Huge. so let's go and find a a better home, actually. and I think he was right because again, you can't operate without scale when you're just a single capability like that. so it needed to you know You know, to find a better path, a new path for growth. Ollie: And it's this part that I'm really interested in because so many people listening to this are either they're out in the market considering selling their own agency, maybe a little bit smaller, maybe the same size is huge. But what did going out and looking for potential investors or acquirers teach you? Lisa De Bonis: that when you have the right team around you, you can do anything. Honestly. and there's three people in particular and they all know it, and they remain dear friends to date, but my my CFO, who's now at RGA, so having a strategic entrepreneurial out of industry actually, 'cause she hadn't been in our industry prior, And then my people officer, CHRO, Adrian. And then GD obviously a newer addition but critical to to helping refine, you know, the strategy, the positioning, the the s the the sales pitch, right? I couldn't have done it without them. And so That's what it taught me. Ollie: I guess you're a lockstep, you're a lockstep together, you've agreed like, this is the kind of choir that we're looking for, here's what we're not looking for. How did you make those decisions and were there ever any moments where it was a bit like three out of four, think? actually a trade deal because if I look at the market At that level your choices I guess are trade? Do we go for another kind of holding co-situation? And I can imagine that was a flat no from everyone in that time. Sister industry, do we look at consulting? Could it be in Accenture? Could it be Tata Consulting? Could it be, I don't know, any of these bigger businesses? You could look at a very big independent. You could look at a mother. You could look at, you know, one of these other companies that perhaps hasn't got a huge digital capability in them, or you could look straight to direct finance like a PE company. Were you taking all considerations, or was it very clear to you at that time that cohort, and definitely not one of the cohorts you want to consider? Lisa De Bonis: I was asked by Philippe what my my thoughts were or my recommendation would be in terms of the avenues. and then I don't know whether that influenced it or he was already there or or what, but I was very clear for me it was either a strategic buyer or or PE or you know, capital in some shape or form. and that is precisely the sort of category of options that we explored. Ollie: Yeah. And then I guess you kind of, in a weird way, you sort of got both with where you ended up because over there you had Hero as well, which strategically was quite interesting because they were already in place. And so Lisa De Bonis: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Ollie: in a strange way, it's kind of like a PE backed group already or like one that is about to become a PE backed group. I can imagine. Did you in that process meet anybody that was totally wrong? Or if you were a founder right now going out to the PE world, is there anything that you would say to them to do or not to do? Lisa De Bonis: So on the first question, yes. Name names, but you know, Ollie: Haha Lisa De Bonis: I will tell the story because it's funny. It was a it was a a PE business out on the West Coast who was so new, I suppose, you know, to be fair. They just didn't know our industry, didn't know what we did. And so they were like, Well, why doesn't a client just go to Squarespace? Ollie: you Lisa De Bonis: Click. Ollie: Ha ha ha ha. Lisa De Bonis: So, so of a little, but not that was the outlier really. a lot of them were interesting and strategic options. but then ultimately you asked earlier about the criteria, you know, there's all the rational stuff. What's their case for investment, right? What what are they looking to get out of above and beyond obviously the the commercial transaction? Why are they doing this? What are the drivers? So looking out for that and then it was culture and it was about people. And you know, it's a grueling process. you know, hours and hours and hours of prep and presentation and discussions and so ultimately, it's it's a good test for like, okay, can I work with these people, you know? And so that plays in a lot to some extent. And we made it clear to to IPG who we felt was the was the one we were most comfortable moving forward with. But then of course the the decision was with them. And luckily it was the same decision. So Ollie: Thank god for that much does it matter by the way that they know and understand what you do? Because I feel like a lot of... private equity companies understand to a certain extent, but that square space comment, I guess, is where the bar is in some of these PE companies, right? And why should they, these are finance people that have grown up and happen to now invest sometimes in the creative economy, but also in health tech, pharma, and a bunch of other industries. to what degree does it matter that they understand the fundamentals of your business? Lisa De Bonis: I have a lot of respect and to this day left on extremely good terms with AA. and I think they are quite unique and an exception to the rule that I'm about to ha because I I think that it does matter to answer that question and I think, you know, if you I think you asked me earlier what would your advice be for someone, you know, looking to be PE backed, an agency in specifically, my answers don't do it, actually. And so the reason I think they're coming through now in our industries, they're looking for new ways to invest and to grow themselves and obviously, tech enabled professional services, which is the category that, essentially we were in, is, you know, in their eyes a a relatively interesting bet. But ultimately the PE clock runs, you know, usually It's a three to five year sort of time frame. and creativity, doesn't compound on that timetable necessarily, you know. I think we used to be before this experience, I could have said, and I think some people say, they don't value creativity. That's not true. They do value creativity, but they see it as an asset and what they don't understand. Or st struggle, I think, sometimes is to understand the process that makes it because it's not Ollie: a spring factory. Lisa De Bonis: Exactly. And and their playbook usually and I these are s broad sweeping statements, but that's why they're six you know, it's how they work. It's that's how their business model. Their playbook is about margin expansion and sort of standardization. So if you have a creative business that is prone to that, which is why again huge you know, you could argue we'd done some of that work which made it easier and anything that's more tech, and and digitally kind of driven is gonna be a little bit more more malleable to that a playbook. But when your playbook as a P firm is to extract margin and, you know, standardize things so that things can be more efficient. and you need to do it quickly and you turn it you need to turn it around quickly. And you need a level of operational and and Commercial rigor in the culture to have that partnership so that you can just really sharpen the way it operates. some th I think it you know, the match is harder to I'm not saying it's impossible but it is harder. So, we should maybe start looking for alternative sources of capital is my reflection more recently, you know, I had some really interesting conversations after I left and before I came here with family offices, for example, because their time frame is different. Their their drivers are different. Ollie: And there's more passion. find the family office thing is interesting because you've got like, okay, VC, which is 11 to one odds. That's like burn the money, get as fast and far as you can quickly. PE much slower, but I guess that's still a huge expectation in five years time to turn it around. Family office, I feel like it's more passion based investing. I know that's like a very different way of... Lisa De Bonis: But that's true. And it goes back to what what w what are you looking to do, right? You're an agency leader. If you're looking to just flip something around and go on that journey, go for it. You know? I was very and I remain to this day, I was very grateful. I remember in the first year with the rigor and this is where my Accenture background really came into play and a and and helped me because there's a level of professionalism and operational rigor, financial rigor. I mean it's fascinating. If if our Our industry had more of that embedded into the culture, we we wouldn't be here. I don't think we'd be under the pressure that we're in actually. So there's a lot to get out of it. I'm just saying if you're i i i if you know if you're an independent creative leader and you're looking for investment to build and to grow, I don't know if that time frame and that culture is quite the the best match. I think look elsewhere. Ollie: Yeah, like you want to be, you're already skyrocketing. You just want an injection to then get to life. You're that business, then it makes a lot of sense. think P E. but then A lot of things make a lot of sense if you're doing that. So, okay, I wonder before we move into your predictions, I want to just come onto Brandtech because we can't do an entire podcast and not speak about where you are currently. So why? Because you could have gone basically anywhere. I think you're possibly the most hireable CEO in the world in this industry. I mean, there's, and I really, mean that, you you've, there isn't a place where you've worked or a corner of the industry that you haven't managed to transform. So you could have gone anywhere. So why, why Brown Tech? And I want to know what surprised you since you've been there. Lisa De Bonis: Yeah. look for me honestly, if I stayed in the industry, Brand Tech was the only option. The only one I was interested in, i is the honest truth. because I wanted to I wanted to stay very tech forward. but ultimately I'm always all about creativity and the scale was important. I needed something that was bigger than huge, but also maybe not as big as Accenture. you know, despite my regional focus now, back to the trilingual thing, you know, I'm an international operator and I I thrive in businesses that are genuinely international and global. And so, they're the most interesting player in the block and they have been for quite some time. And I could sense that there was a moment they're pivoting into the next wave of like accelerated growth and I wanted to be part of it. So that that's genuinely it. And then and then it helped that, you know, there was a sort of connection with David Jones from the Havas work club day time period, even though we didn't cross paths completely, he was ultimately behind that acquisition. yeah, and then I started meeting people and it was a no brainer. So so that's the why. what surprised me was again, you know my background, despite seeing from the outside the power of pencil, you know, the culture the just the the premise brand tech, right? every day I am genuinely so grateful and surprised by the lack of fear around tech. And obviously the counter to that is a genuine curiosity, embracing the all inness. it is seen as, you know, the thing that catapults thinking and and creativity and it's just so refreshing, you know. I I was hoping to see that when I I shouldn't say this maybe, but we can cut at Accenture and and I was I was disappointed. They we had some of the greatest creative minds and people in our industry in that amazing playground and contrary they were just not interested. Whereas here, it's like I c I can't keep up. Everybody's wanting to learn more and do more and it's just like but I love it. It's great energy and it's what we need to we need in the business. Ollie: It kind of goes back to what you were saying about the culture and the language thing. like, if you spent your time at a company that's perhaps they know they need to make the change and become more tech, but secretly and kind of implicitly professional services and doing things the old way is probably the preference. So until you've changed the culture and that whole culture, eats strategy for breakfast thing, you can stand up and say, strategy is to become tech enabled as a Wieden & Kennedy or whatever agency you are that historically perhaps hasn't been much. to make that happen when you know that the deep roots of that business probably aren't there. But I feel like the moment that Brandtech and David Jones existed, it had always been in its DNA that that was always going to be the future. And it was a bet. Because it could have turned out that, wasn't a big bet, but it was because it was still the only one to have done that. Lisa De Bonis: I mean that vision of like saying, you know, all marketing is gonna get better, faster and cheaper through technology in twenty fifteen it was. Like, you know, not very popular, I can tell you at Ollie: No. Lisa De Bonis: the time. And and it's paid off, right? It's a massive organization now. We've got incredible brands that we're working with and partnering and transforming at massive scale. Unilever Diaggio, BMW, you name it, Barclays, etcetera. you know, L'Oreal, I mean it never stops. So incredible brands at incredible scale, all powered by this incredible product that we have in pencil. And that product mindset, is is key and will continue to be key to to our growth. it's a mindset really that is about outcomes, it's about speed, it's about, genuinely always learning, I mean every every week the roadmap you know, gets richer and the product gets better. And so we're constantly training and learning all of ourselves, not let alone of course our clients and and their agency partners on what's now possible. And so that that just fuels a culture of continuous curiosity and humility and, you know, hustle. 'Cause you're always having to sort of be that one that you know, to be that one step ahead, You're always learning. So Ollie: How many people there are in the group at Brandtech? Lisa De Bonis: about seven thousand Ollie: 7,000 and it's gonna be quite a direct question on this because the rhetoric is AI is taking everyone's jobs and you should be very fearful because the more tech we use the less people we need. you're the most tech enabled advertising marketing services group if I can call you that. business in the industry. It's your strap line. Why have you got 7,000 people? And if I look at those, that headline and those number, should I feel more positive? about being a person in this industry and knowing that there is a hybrid nature to what we're doing in a future for the people of this industry. And I guess my question is, why do know that to be true? Lisa De Bonis: Well, so first all, we w you know, we're over a billion dollars in revenue, right? So we operate at a scale that is pretty substantial. and as you know, one of our incredible capabilities is and we've got many, but comes from the acquisition of Oliver, which is, you know, a pioneer in in housing and that you know in designing op models and setting up marketing functions for clients and that requires people, right? That requires people to go into our clients' businesses and help them run their marketing and ultimately transform through AI driven marketing. So you so that's the why to the seven thousand. Now you know if you go back to the origin story of pencil, the reason pencil is called pencil is because it was the the the the purpose is to be a tool for human creativity and for humanity. so that purpose carries on and we will always need people to make the most of to unlock that potential the potential of technology. and I think what everyone is realizing is that, you know, the tech it's not about the tech. You need you need to help people change and you know, Change management is the theme and has always been and will continue to be. without having the right people, the right processes, the right obviously platforms, and the right training and support around it, it doesn't work. So to some extent, there will always be a need for that support. now we do have clients that are, you know, SAS only, so to speak. they you know, they buy into pencil and they use it and they're phenomenal, and then we love them and we'll keep doing a lot. of that but there's a lot of our customers and and brands that we work with with whom you know we design hybrid teams that are essentially human and agentic and that will continue that is the that is the now I was gonna say the future it's not the future it's the now that's what we're doing Ollie: let's say young Lisa is entering the industry. She's about to leave the French agency that I can't pronounce and join mother. And she gets to meet Lisa of today and she says, what do I do? I'm a strategist, creative account manager. trilingual human being and I want to be where you are in 20 years time, where do you think I shouldn't focus if I want to sustain a career in this industry and where do you think I should double down? Lisa De Bonis: Well obviously I would say hands on keyboards, get your hands sticky into the tools and play and find your your way of making them part of your everyday life. This is just nothing well nothing beats that to really understand and start building that muscle. and then I would say I mean I have a bias, I would say this, right? But I think it's about honing critical thinking skills and understanding culture and people. So the more the tech can do, the more we need to need to understand people to get the most out of it. So investing in what drives behavior, what shapes culture. And then ultimately what makes brands, resonate and distinctive. what's interesting about this time, and I'm sort of segueing into the predictions, is you know, we're gonna go through I think we still have a few waves of the sea of sameness thing. I think the sea of sameness is gonna get worse before it gets better. You know, going back to my learning from work club, like everything moves slower than actually I think. And and we we we move in this industry and I move. And so I need to like pace myself a little bit. So there's gonna be a few waves still of just like more sea of sameness because the cost of production, exploration, etc. has just collapsed and everyone can do everything. You're gonna have more things. more people doing more of the same things faster and so it's just gonna the volume's gonna go up still a few notches, and distinction will go down. So we're gonna have to just hold our breath and get through that. And, you know, our Course at Brand Tech and then hopefully all other great creative and tech-enabled organizations will focus on cutting through that. So then you're gonna have a swing back to brand thinking and you know the value of really pure, strong creative thinking. And that's where the cut-through comes, that's where the differentiation comes. And that's when you have to make sure you have a bench of incredible creative, craft-driven thinkers and doers who know how to use the tools. Who are who are creating through the tools? because then their job is no longer can you make that thing with that tool? It's, you know, how do you know, what's the idea, what's the thought, what out of all those things that have just been created, which one's the best one? So critical thinking and taste, you know, and I know we've been talking about it, but it's true, it it'll come back to the fore. Again, we're always driven by threat more than opportunity, unfortunately. So it should have always been at the fore. But now there's gonna be the threat of this sea of sameness that is gonna hurt touch more people. And so that will then I think create the space for those critical thinkers, those incredibly differentiated thoughts and ideas and brands to sort of bubble up to the top. I think when the Sea of Sameness gets better, the better's gonna be exponential. It's gonna be Hollywood craft caliber craft, you know what mean? more than mid agency caliber type of stuff. And so that's gonna be an incredible moment to be in this industry. Ollie: I love, when you were saying that, I was thinking in my head, like, what does the world look like? And in a strange way, it's no different to the Blackberry or the Crackberry era, right? Where it was like, everyone's in their phones, but they're out, or they're also out in the world. Something about get your hands sticky, but get into real life is, I think the thing that I find really interesting because... Lisa De Bonis: Yeah. Ollie: We're basically saying to young people, the beauty of these tools is how much of the world you get to see because you're not stuck on this thing. Like we were on our BlackBerrys and, you know, trying to navigate this strange hybrid life. And the best thing is that the more of that world you see, the better you're going to get at this stuff. And there's this lovely infinity loop now where we live in this half tech, half IRL world. And I think that's why we're seeing a resurgence of IRL. And apparently the generation that's just gone before is now the least the generation for the first time is using their phones less apparently which I which I found really interesting okay I want to I want to get into Lisa De Bonis: Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Ollie: your predictions because I've had lots of your time and although I think you might have already said one Lisa De Bonis: I think I've given them to you really. I think prediction number one is the sea of sameness is gonna get worse before it gets better. Prediction number two is that then once it gets better it'll swing back the focus and the value will swing back to brand. And creativity, whatever words you wanna use, you know but the good stuff. And it's not in opposition. We gotta be clear. It's this is why I love this place. It's called brand tech. You know. They're not in opposition for God's sakes. On the contrary. So I cannot wait, you know, and I see it, we're investing in it here. It's like, let's focus on what will make, what is the idea, what is that distinctive organizing thought for a brand. How do we how do we build brands in today's era? I think That narrative is gonna come to the fore again, which is fantastic. And as I said, the caliber of the execution of the craft is gonna go to stratospheric Hollywood-like levels because of the cost that has been you know, lowered so exponentially. And then the last one is I think, is it a prediction or is it a hope? But that the business model will catch up to the shift, right? So again, everything goes in cycles, history reads itself. When all of a sudden the cost of production is collapses, and then people the market realizes they need to cut through and to drive growth, they need differentiation. There will be a renewed value placed on the thinking and the ideas, but also the transformation services to do all of this at scale. I was going back to people and change management, right? And so then you know, I think value in the outcome the conversation is gonna continue and get sharper. I think when it comes to just pure campaign work if you like brand work and stuff like that, the fact that the purchase journey has has collapsed, it's been collapsing constantly, right? But now with social in particular and your you know your TikTok shops and this and that, the other and agents choosing for you and you know and giving you the short list of the brands. And so all of a sudden your discovery, your paths are completely gone. You're just like, okay, now I can buy with that whole journey being collapsed so quickly. I think for us who not necessarily directly in the in the media space, the correlation between the idea and the thinking and the craft and the sale, the attribution of those two things, becomes easier. And so now we can prove the value of the thinking in, faster. That's what it's about. Ollie: I where you're going. Because there's a smaller gap between a creative idea and the sale, which is, Lisa De Bonis: That's right. Ollie: my God, that's really interesting. Lisa, I love this. Thank you so much. Those are fantastic Lisa De Bonis: Yeah. I hope. You're welcome. Ollie: predictions, and it's gonna take my brain a little bit time to catch up. I think I understand, I'm with you, Lisa De Bonis: Well, I meandered a little bit too, so if you want sharper Ollie: Not true. Lisa De Bonis: builds we can we can pick up again. But it was it was lovely to see you. sorry it's taking a while. Ollie: You too as well. And I didn't ask you the final thing, which is there a quote that has guided your life? If nothing comes to mind, you haven't got a say. Lisa De Bonis: No, I I don't like quotes guide my life. I my values Ollie: Really? Lisa De Bonis: my values guide my life and my values are, you know, integrity and joy. you know, and I don't think it's a value, but it's keeping perspective, just recognizing where we're placed in this world and keeping things into perspective I think is very very healthy. So Ollie: Thank you so much, I love that. I'm a very quotey guy, so it's quite... Lisa De Bonis: I know, I know. I'm not yeah. This goes back to John Clayton. You should do PR. I'm like, I don't know, it's not me. It's not me. I'll get better at it. I'll keep trying. Ollie: Yeah. Well, look, this is PR. There's going to be a lovely newslettery thing coming out. We're going to condense all this stuff. Lisa De Bonis: You'll make it sound snappy Ollie: so snappy. You sounded British then when you said that. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much. Really good to see you. Lisa De Bonis: Snappy. All right. I gotta jump. Good to see you. Take care. Bye bye.