Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / The future of ITIL & DEX (w/ Matt Beran)

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The future of ITIL & DEX (w/ Matt Beran) · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

0:01
Welcome it, changemakers to the Deck Show with Tim Flower and Tom McGraw.
0:07
Let's get into it. Hello changemakers, it's another deck show. I'm Tom
0:11
McGrath. I'm joined by Tim Flower and Tim We've got competition in the house.
0:16
To Damian, we've got competition of the show. What do you make
0:20
of it? Is this? Was this a wise a wise move? I
0:23
don't know. I don't know. I love the competition, but you know
0:27
what, it's friendly competition and there's so much to talk about. I love
0:30
love having guys like Matt. I'm the show exactly. We've got Matt Barron
0:35
host and of the excellent ticket Volume. And I will say straight up the
0:40
bat. You know, the first time I heard the show title ticket Volume,
0:44
Matt, I thought, damn, that's a good title right there.
0:48
Not that I have a competitive streak. I wouldn't want you to come away
0:51
from misintroduction with a wrong idea. You know, I love it. Thank
0:55
you, thank you so much. Thanks for having me too, so Matt.
0:58
My background, I was at Hartford for twenty five years, implemented tons
1:03
of stuff over the year's ninety Actually twenty years, not twenty five exaggerated.
1:07
It felt like twenty five, but implemented from ninety five to twenty fifteen.
1:14
So many technologies, including at the end, Next Think and the Big Metric.
1:19
The big claim to fame that that we were able to achieve was an
1:22
eighty percent ticket reduction in L one tickets at the help desk. Eighty percent
1:26
of the inbounds went away. We didn't deflect them with self service, we
1:32
didn't route them somewhere else. We stabilize the environments and that things just stopped
1:37
breaking. And that eighty percent ticket reduction at five bucks apiece to our L
1:42
one help desk provider was two and a half million dollars recurring every year.
1:48
So when I saw your title of ticket reduction, I said our ticket volume
1:52
said, holy cow. It It resonated with me, and I know it
1:57
has to resonate with your audience too. It's pretty cool. Yeah, for
2:00
sure, what a great story. And you've nailed it, man. I
2:02
mean that's what it's all about. Stabilize, improve yep. And that was
2:07
always my mantras. Fix the crap that's broken and has been broken for years,
2:14
and then stop breaking it so you can now implement change with confidence.
2:19
That you already know it's not going to break in if it does break,
2:22
you know, without people having to call your outdesk, you can stop,
2:24
you can communicate, you can adjust. It's so much you can do with
2:28
that visibility and it uah, it never gets old. Yeah, pays off
2:35
in spades. Yep. What about you, Matt, what was your What
2:38
was your background prior to starting which, Yeah, my background, um,
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it has been largely the same. I did um tons of service service management
2:47
implementations, cut my teeth doing customer service for great Clips, a giant um
2:55
hair salon place in the States here, and really just kind of have always
3:01
just loved helping people. I grew up on a farm and so the mindset
3:07
there was really you know, if you see something broken, fix it.
3:12
And I've just kind of taken that with me into the service and support world.
3:15
And early on in my career I had really good mentors and one of
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them pointed out HDI, a great organization for help desk professionals and service desk
3:25
professionals, and it kind of just exposed me to this world that there's an
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entire ecosystem and a career path and a focus on delivering great service building designing
3:39
and delivering great service, so stuck with it and loved it ever since.
3:44
Lately, I cut my teeth doing tons of service now implementations over the last
3:50
decade or so, and now recently have joined a company called Invigate, a
3:54
absolutely fantastic service management solution that focuses on basic ticketing, incident problem change knowledge,
4:03
and then also another solution that does asset management and cmdbs. So just
4:09
kind of love in the space and continuing to try to give back to the
4:12
community through the podcast and everything else I do amazing and obviously our focus here
4:17
is a bit more in digital employee experience. Expressly interested to start out,
4:24
but by hearing how you think that concept has really been influencing and changing the
4:29
whole realm of service management a large lately. Yes, my goodness, it
4:35
feels like the other way, like service management is influencing the decks world.
4:39
But maybe that's just because I'm in it operations all the time. But when
4:45
you think about it at the very base, I was talking about software license
4:48
management yesterday with one of my colleagues and they said, what are the outcomes?
4:54
And I started to kind of peel back the onion and I realize and
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I'm sorry from dropping business jargon away on my podcast, But what we were
5:02
doing is dissecting the idea and I realized that so much of it is focused
5:08
on financial and efficiency, and we sort of forget in our effort to improve
5:15
the cost and the operation of the thing that at the end of the day,
5:20
the applications that we pick and select impact our employees ability to deliver,
5:28
what makes them special, what makes them awesome and makes them productive, makes
5:33
them useful to the company. So that's that's just one of the ways that
5:40
you know, I think service management is starting to kind of wake up to
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this idea that experience management, experience design, and the concepts of like co
5:50
creation of value are starting to really permeate our space. And we're starting to
5:56
really see people design services with with the people that consume them. So a
6:03
great example is, you know, we used to just pick the laptop that
6:08
everyone got and that's the laptop that you get. Well, now you see
6:12
teams that are more focused on selecting those tools with the employees. They're you
6:16
know, doing trial programs with the employees, having employees come in and seeing
6:21
you know, ten or twelve models in a conference room. We're really starting
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to glom onto the ideas that DEX brings to us and then put it into
6:32
operations, put it into actions. What do you think is the absolute key
6:39
to delivering the digital employee experience in your view? Taking that into account,
6:43
M yes, well, I guess the keys There's two that really come to
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mind right away, because we always said when we're consulting, meet the meet
6:55
the people where they are. UM, don't don't try to just um you
7:00
know, top down control you're going to do things this way. Listen to
7:03
the people and meet them where they are. But I also think, like
7:08
tied to that same software license story that I had, people are looking for
7:14
freedom and autonomy and so many of our and that's hard to scale. That's
7:19
hard to you know, when you've got ten thousand employees, it's hard to
7:23
say, Okay, everyone can have whatever applications that they want. So you
7:28
end up having to sort of operationalize that how how do we provide more freedom,
7:32
more autonomy, but still make it supportable and cost effective and and and
7:40
the way that we think it should be and the way that they think that
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it should be. So I think it really it ends up being that sort
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of pairing of people, you know, balancing the cost constraints and the supportability
7:51
constraints with the freedom and autonomy. It's that's what employee experience kind of feels
7:58
like to me. What about the link between employee experience and customer experience?
8:05
Oh my gosh, this one's a good one, and I think a lot
8:09
of people are hitting. I mean, I think it's fairly widely accepted now
8:13
that if you've got a good employee experience, eventually the customer experience is going
8:16
to be impacted. Whether it's because the employees are just happy so they're providing
8:22
better customer service, or some other link that ties it directly. But to
8:28
me anyway, I think longer term, I think bigger picture, and you
8:35
see this in DI initiatives to diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives, where it's
8:41
more than just making people comfortable, it's about making better products that serve more
8:46
people. And I think the same can be said for ex driving CX,
8:52
in that if you've got happy employees, then eventually what you're delivering, the
8:58
product the services are actually going to improve, and therefore your CX is going
9:03
to improve. So yes, there is this direct correlation happy people we get
9:07
happy people, but also happy people build better services and products. But even
9:16
there's a baseline, right, it's great to create the positivity, they will
9:20
in turn create a better product, a better customer experience. But on the
9:26
flip side, even just the baseline, like we're talking about before, stop
9:30
breaking it right, Stop inserting hurdles and causing them to actually deliver poor service.
9:37
I can't tell you how many times I've been on the phone with my
9:41
cell phone provider or my cable provider to get service and they'll invariably say,
9:48
hang on a minute, my PC just rebooted. I'm gonna have to transfer
9:50
it to somebody else. That experience you're now creating, you're not creating positivity,
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you're creating negativity, and you're actually losing business. This um it's it's
10:03
such a Over the years, it has I think, not had real good
10:07
visibility into their impact on the business. They're here to serve an it function.
10:13
I need to deliver this piece of software. Damn the torpedoes full speed
10:16
ahead. And you know if they break, well, they'll call. Surely
10:22
they'll call. If we break them, half of them don't call. And
10:24
that's that's the paradox with ticket volume is if my current ticket volume only represents
10:30
half of my problems, I have an incrementally bigger problem to solve. But
10:35
the paradox is I can't tell them to all call because I can't handle the
10:39
ticket volume I have. I can't double my expenses, so I almost hope
10:43
that they don't call. It's such a it's such a paradox, and it
10:46
kind of to flip it as well. It has a long history of not
10:52
wanting to listen. Right, we are the technology pros. Employees don't know
10:58
technology we do. We're going to tell them which device to get, which
11:03
software to get what they kind of can't do, what the governance rules are.
11:07
But there's there's a key pillar in experience that we have to break it
11:13
down and get them to listen. Right, what do you think the key
11:18
is to get a techie to effectively listen to their customer. Yes, great
11:24
question, And this is something that I try to do in all of my
11:28
workshops, all of my consulting engagements is to get get people. It's the
11:33
design life cycle. Yeah, when when you're conducting that research, when when
11:39
you're when you're selecting that laptop and you've got ten models in a conference room.
11:43
The agents need to be in there, the people involved, because it's
11:48
not just customers, it's the stakeholders that need to be involved. And the
11:52
same goes for app dev and infrastructure. You know, if you're building a
11:56
Wi Fi network, go and watch people use the Wi Fi. You know,
12:01
go in, or you're selecting software, if you're in charge of application
12:05
management, you should definitely be sitting next to employees doing their job on a
12:11
regular basis. And it's not something that you can just delegate out to a
12:16
specific team because then people they see the data and maybe they'll change. But
12:22
when you see it happening, when you see someone literally copying and pasting Excel
12:26
row after Excel roll over and over and over, immediately you're you're thinking,
12:33
this is the dumbest way to do this, and there's one hundred apps that
12:37
can fix this for you. And suddenly your eyes open the and your portfolio
12:43
is going to change. You're going to add that in, You're going to
12:46
understand why you're adding that in, and you're going to be able to speak
12:50
to your superiors and the other people involved and explain to them why this software
12:56
is now being added to the stable. We had just a quick anecdote.
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We had two applications that were customer facing at our call center, and I
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did a field tour. I went to forty field offices in six weeks,
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was in a different city every day. I was sitting with employees, watching
13:11
them do their job, watching them struggle through their hurdles of the day.
13:16
And one employee I sat with on the call center was taking a customer account
13:20
number from one application, copying and pasting it into notepad so they had a
13:26
running record of it, and then would then take that consolidated set of information
13:31
a notepad, copy it and paste it into the other application. And nobody
13:35
knew that workflow was so incredibly broken, and the employee was onboarded that way.
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They just felt that's the way it is. So see to your point,
13:41
sitting with the business, seeing how they function, they don't know technology
13:46
and they don't know that that can be fixed. So so much value in
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spending time with the business. Couldn't agree with you more. We've got to
13:54
give a trigger warning before some of these stories. So let's let's switch to
14:01
a little bit different topic. Let's talk about and you were kind of apologized
14:05
early on for throwing some jargoning. So let's talk about buzzwords, right,
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what's your thought on a couple of catch all buzzwords? Will start with the
14:13
one that's trending right now. AI. Everything drops into AI, whether it's
14:18
an analytics or analysis. What's your what's your view on AI? My view
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on AIM? I am a hopeful, optimistic, positive thinker who who definitely
14:35
likes to try new things, and I think AI is a fantastic tool.
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I think the reason that it's such a hot topic right now isn't necessarily because
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it's new. I think that a lot of the combinatorial um um analysis and
14:52
suggestion and engines that predictive analytic engines have been around for a long time,
14:58
and a lot tools have been using them for a long time. It's just
15:01
that now we've added like a language later, so another very popular. And
15:07
so I think big call centers, large IT shops have been using this for
15:13
a long time to scale employees, and certainly with the addition of good language
15:18
models, large language models, it's going to go even further. Right,
15:22
It's going to be easier for us to suggest things and provide responses. I
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mean, even at my own company, i'd invigate we're adding it to our
15:31
ticketing system. Of course we are, because there's so many situations where an
15:37
agent may not have the skills or the background to write a great response on
15:43
a ticket. So let's let them get suggestions. Let's make it easy for
15:50
it to push against an API really quickly out to chat, GPT or open
15:54
AI and then quickly provide a response back that either sounds more professional or has
16:02
more detail, or maybe has less detail. And so there's a huge opportunity
16:07
there. And then also, you know, you look at what I do
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is I'm a process nerd. So it's all about like, how do we
16:14
reduce friction in the process. And one thing that I really like is the
16:18
concept of KCS knowledge centered support or knowledge centered service. And one of the
16:26
things about knowledge centered service is be able to draft the articles. Let's get
16:30
those articles created. It fills a pipeline of knowledge content that you can then
16:36
leverage later. And these large language models, if they're great at writing,
16:41
which I think we've kind of confirmed they're pretty good at writing, what a
16:45
great spot to start and make it easy so that you can click on a
16:48
ticket and generate a knowledge article. So those are just some of the things
16:52
that I that we're trying as a company. But yeah, there's always buzzwords,
16:57
there's always trends. DevOps this was a big one for a while,
17:00
and I think what's really key is that we don't that they don't shift,
17:11
right. So DevOps is a cultural movement around basically you build it, you
17:15
support it, and you do it all together as a team, and it's
17:18
meant to be a very calm process. And with AI, I think it's
17:26
kind of the same way, like, let's let's not make it what it
17:30
isn't already, let's not jump to conclusions, and hopefully, you know,
17:34
we can glean the value out of it as much as possible. And I
17:40
also want to say this that it is it's offensive to think that a human
17:45
can be replaced by it because what we're doing here communicating you know, you
17:51
see my hand gestures, you see the way that I'm looking at you,
17:53
that I'm paying attention. Although it may be replicated someday by an AI or
18:00
an engine or some similar similachrum, I don't think that we're at the point
18:06
where humans don't provide value, So let's not jump to that conclusion. It's
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I think that's such an important point. There's a train of thought that the
18:18
AI large language models are getting more creative, more responsive, more natural language
18:26
like and I think that we can be fooled into thinking that creativity is replicating
18:32
human creativity. Right, I on the spot can listen to what you say,
18:37
your creativity and the words that you form in our conversation and respond to
18:41
it in I hope, a different way, a more human way than a
18:47
chatbot can. It'd be interesting to see what happens over the next ten years,
18:51
but I'm hoping that human creativity doesn't get replaced. But it is such
18:56
an important part of everything we do. How about a different sort of words,
19:03
buzzwords or will stay on that truck? Predictive used predictive already We've maybe
19:08
covered that a little bit, But what do you feel the difference between predictive
19:12
and proactive is? M oh, that's great. Um, what I think
19:19
of predictive? I really do think of looking at trends historical data. For
19:26
instance, you might you might choose a hardware vendor based on past performance.
19:33
Do I like all the dells that we have? Should we switch vendors?
19:37
Um? Do I like all the HP desktops that we have should I should
19:41
I trust them again? And you see that with network gear too. Proactive
19:45
really feels like planning. And if you subscribe to any of the IT frameworks,
19:52
all of them kind of talk about that service design and service transition phases.
19:57
And I really feel like that's where a lot of the proactive elements should
20:02
be living. Now. There are elements of continual service improvement and problem management
20:08
is gonna you know, say all right, well, proactively we can fix
20:11
these incidents if we set up a redundant server or redundant networks or um,
20:19
you know, design our services in a way that that they're a bit more
20:25
dependable, so that that's where I think proactive really lives. Yeah, um,
20:30
what do you think? Am I wrong? What is the decks angle?
20:33
Yeah? So you know when we in my previous employers set up the
20:38
proactive services team, UM that the positive side of it was, UM,
20:45
great work. We don't need to wait for customers and employees to call it
20:48
helped usk anymore. We're going to be proactive. But really, the problem
20:52
already existed. Our tools are just telling us that something broke. So you
20:56
really haven't been proactive in solving the problem. You've just been proactive in not
21:00
needing them to call you about it. So proactive for me and for our
21:04
team's got to be the point where to my earlier rant was stop breaking it.
21:11
Let's be proactive in development and in test and in deployment, so that
21:15
we're proactively, to your point, planning the rollout, and we're planning into
21:21
the design the stability that we need and the reliability that we need, versus
21:26
just throwing it out there and you know if if it breaks, surely someone
21:30
would call you know I over the over the years, my my brain kind
21:37
of kicks in and says, think about it a different way. Let me
21:41
let me pose this to you. Distributed computing doesn't exist yet. We design
21:47
it and we build it, and tomorrow we're going to roll out thirty thousand
21:51
devices. Distributed computing is going to hit us in one day. And we've
21:56
got this great design, We've got all the applications, we've got the standard
21:59
opera system, and you know what we're gonna do for support. We've got
22:03
this great model. We're gonna put fifty people on a help desk. We're
22:07
gonna give them phones and computers, and when the PCs break, we've got
22:11
a great solution. All they have to do is call us and tell us.
22:15
And for problem management, we've got an even better solution because now that
22:18
we're tracking all the problems at the help desk, we can out trend the
22:21
problems and do problem management based on the phone calls. You'd get kicked out
22:25
of the office. You would be thrown out on your ear because it's the
22:27
dumbest model ever. But we've been working with it for thirty years. It's
22:32
insanity. Yeah. Yeah, the razor razor blade model. You know,
22:37
if if there's a lot of money to be made and fixing a problem,
22:40
there's a lot of money to be made and not fixing it permanently. Yep.
22:44
I had an executive tell me I can't afford to do decks because now
22:47
I have to fix everything. Yeah my god. Yeah, but it ends
22:52
up it ends up being a major cost driver. I mean, your revenue
22:56
goes up, your overall operational costs go down. And I think another word
23:02
like if in the IT space anyway, as simile would be hardening, you're
23:06
really making it such that it can't break, or if it does that it's
23:11
such a great experience that you're ready for it. Like, for example,
23:15
and I love these examples. You know, for the longest time, if
23:18
a user had a problem with their laptop and it was the operating system,
23:22
you'd pull the machine, you'd pull all the data off, you'd wipe it,
23:26
you'd put the data back on and give it back to them. Well,
23:30
the new model isn't that way. You and I both know that it's
23:33
more common now. For if an employee has a problem with their laptop,
23:37
you're shipping them a new one right away, and it's going to have their
23:41
profile loaded on it. It's probably going to have a lot of their apps
23:45
preloaded. And if you're if you're really cutting edge, you know you're you're
23:51
you're making it such that if they report a specific problem, it's already being
23:55
imaged in a locker next to their house, like as close as possible to
23:59
their GEO as possible, and they can go in, pull the new one,
24:03
put the old one, and they got that new one. And if
24:06
you really want to take that to the next level, you're upgrading their laptop
24:10
at the same time. And that makes it such that not only not only
24:15
are they are they excited that that this problem is going to go away,
24:19
and that they're going to have a clean, high performing computer, but you
24:22
upgraded them as well, which is going to give them a better experience.
24:26
Well, hopefully it's a better experience. Hopefully they don't have to replace all
24:29
their peripherals and a bunch of other things too. But even flip that,
24:33
you know from a pendulum perspective, and I've had executives talk me through that
24:37
process, and you know, down the road, the same executives come back
24:41
and say, look at all these laptops we're shipping. Look at all these
24:45
devices. Every time something breaks, I have to ship an entire new laptop.
24:48
Why can't I just fix this stuff? Or better yet, why can't
24:51
I just stop breaking it? And then I don't have to replace the employee's
24:52
laptop every time they have a problem, because that new laptop that goes back
24:56
out to them, if you haven't fixed the root cause of breakage, it's
25:00
gonna break again and you're gonna ship them another new laptop. The cycle lots
25:04
of different perspectives on their right way to handle stability, reliability, predictability,
25:11
And that's one of them is why spend an hour fixing something when it's just
25:15
as easy to ship them a new laptop. But if you're shipping them a
25:17
new laptop every thirty days, something's got to shift. Yeah, yeah,
25:22
it's That's what I love about this line of business is there's so many different
25:29
things to think about and uh and to try. So let's let's wrap up
25:34
the buzzword conversation, the mother of all buzzword inventors. What are your thoughts
25:40
about the future of IT till all of our modern IT buzzwords go from?
25:44
I tell, where do you think that goes? From a design cycle perspective?
25:49
Where you know it? Does? I tell? Still stay relative and
25:52
kind of accommodate all of the different thought processes. Yes, I think the
25:59
advanced from IT till three to it till four have really have really helped.
26:04
It's It's really what the industry has needed. Um, whether you're discovering it
26:10
through it till or some other framework. The the idea of designing services with
26:15
your with the stakeholders in mind is a huge benefit to the ecosystem. I
26:22
think what's tough about IT now is that it's now a private venture. Yeah,
26:30
it till has been purchased several times by three companies, Capita, Axelos
26:34
and now People sert. And the way that it came about was the UK
26:41
government really their IT department really realized, hey, we need a standard operating
26:48
model, we need we need ways to talk about this stuff so that we
26:51
can all communicate well. And I feel like it's evolved. We have evolved
26:56
as a as a as a society, technology has involved has has evolved.
27:03
So now it's not it's not a new concept to explain to a new employee
27:08
that you create a ticket when something is broken, right, It's it's not
27:11
a new concept that there's a difference between requesting something and reporting that it's broken.
27:18
That's not new anymore. Um. And so I think that since we've
27:22
evolved, I feel like the relevance has gone down that And you see it
27:30
in I TILL four. And I was speaking at event earlier this week and
27:33
someone came up to me and asked, where do I go to get processes?
27:37
Where do I go to get like a standard incident process? And sure,
27:41
you can google it, and there's an awesome it TILL wiki out there,
27:45
and there's a million frameworks I could name ten right now that you could
27:52
focus on besides I TILL that are going to be more accessible and I think
27:56
that is one of the reasons that this privatization is going to ultimately hurt the
28:02
relevance because the companies that have bought it need to make money back, and
28:08
the people that are interested in the framework and the ideas, you know,
28:12
maybe they do have a company that has bought into it, and they do
28:15
have someone that they can get reimbursement for or from, UM, But a
28:21
lot of times it's just it's people that want to learn and grow and they're
28:25
looking for something free, cheap, easy that they can that they can learn
28:30
from, because that's that's how we learn now. And so I feel like
28:33
anything that's behind a paywall now is going to lose relevancy over time. And
28:40
UM, I wish I wish them the best, and I don't know what's
28:45
next. And I think that's really where where people are very curious, what
28:48
is the next popular framework that that we're going to be leveraging, because because
28:53
we've evolved cool amazing stuff. Final question for the event, what do you
29:00
think of the key technologies and capabilities for really expanding the effectiveness of service management
29:07
going forward? But we haven't necessarily touched upon in the buzzword conversation Yes,
29:12
I love this question so much, UM, specifically because it isn't just about
29:18
tech, it's about capabilities UM. And one of the one of the I
29:25
think the primary concepts that are that are key foundational to improving employee experience and
29:32
delivering great modern service management is infinite curiosity, always be learning. Having that
29:38
lifelong learning mindset is key when when a new technology comes out, look at
29:44
it, look at it skeptically, optimistically, and everything in between. Touch
29:49
it, you know, get a hold of it. UM. Right now,
29:53
I'm I've got Ubuntu running on my computer because I've just not used Linux
29:59
in a long time and I need to kind of remember what the end user
30:03
computing experience is like on that thing, and it's really changed since the last
30:07
time I used it, So that's sort of foundational. I also feel like
30:11
there is a major shift in leadership where no longer can we manage my numbers.
30:19
It is about leading the human experience. It's about leading the humans to
30:25
be the best at who they are, so that capability can be expanded with
30:32
concepts like cognitive coaching, you know, learning empathy. No longer can we
30:40
get leaders in managers in it roles that are just brought there by merit of
30:47
technical capabilities, you really need to raise up the leaders that understand people and
30:53
are can be selfless and empathetic with the people that are doing the actual work.
30:57
So those are the huge parts of capabilities, the human capabilities. And
31:03
then as far as technology goes, I really feel like it's letting the people
31:08
that are doing the work selecting the products. I don't think that it's necessarily
31:15
about what technologies you pick. It's about making sure that what you pick works
31:19
for the people that are doing the actual work, and they will. They'll
31:25
be your best BS meters, They'll they'll be the people that say, Okay,
31:29
this is too complex, this doesn't make sense. I'm not going to
31:33
have the freedom and autonomy to deliver a great customer experience to our customers the
31:37
people that we serve. So selecting those tools is probably another super important capability.
31:47
SUPERB note to end on SUPERB conversation altogether being an absolute pleasure having you
31:52
on the show. May I wonder if you could just tell everyone where they
31:56
can find ticket Volume, where they can find you, where you'd like them
31:59
to follow look out for you. Yes, and thanks for having me on
32:02
the deck show as well. Ticket volume can be found on any of your
32:07
podcast platforms. We see most people on Apple podcasts, that's our highest listener
32:12
number. Spotify is also very popular, but you can find us on YouTube.
32:15
We switch to video a little bit while a little while ago, basically
32:20
because you can see how animated I am, and so if you want to
32:24
catch us on video, check us out on YouTube. Pleasure having one pleasure
32:30
as well. Thank you much. To make sure that you never miss an
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32:47
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32:52
you so much for listening. Until next time,