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Why Knowing Your Attachment Style Isn’t Fixing Your Relationships · Bro-ing Pains

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Being respect in your relationship, or you feeling desirable in your relationship and knowing that your partner desires to spend time with you.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a fairy tale.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: What's up, world?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Brown Pains, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist's office and the group chat.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Chad, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but my friends like to call me Puppet Chat.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Carlos, a theater kid turned self-proclaimed corporate poppy.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Browing Pains Season 2, Episode 8.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Today's episode is a follow-up to our season one episode about attachment styles.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: So go check out that episode if you haven't already.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's episode 8 on season one.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of us can name our attachment style.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: We've read about it, we've talked about it, we've probably even explained it to other people.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: And this episode might feel a little uncomfortable because we're not just talking about understanding your patterns, we're talking about what it actually takes to interrupt them.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you know your attachment style, but still find yourself reacting the same way in relationships, this episode is for you.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to hear about what sort of responses you got from season one of that specific episode.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's nuances to the attachment research stuff.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think just like a lot of other things in our culture and society, when something is explained as being able to easily and concisely give you the answers that you're looking for, people like latch onto it and say, okay, all right, that's that's why this is happening to me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, these are human beings we're talking about here, and and uh our lives are much more complicated than defining us into a particular bucket of an attachment style.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So this episode really is looking for you know an opportunity for you to take it to the next level and think about what ways potentially you are you know continuing to perpetuate your own like low self-esteem or depression by sticking in your attachment style.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: So we got a cool one.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's time to unstick from those attachment styles and open up, open wide.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um all right, so presenting vignette number 006.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just deal with it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Noah is 29 and has been dating Lily for eight months.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Lily is outgoing, social, always making plans.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Her calendar is full, and she seems to come alive around other people.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Noah is quieter.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: He prefers slower nights, fewer people.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: At first, he liked the difference.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: She brought energy into his life.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: But lately, something feels off.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm fine, he tells her when she asks.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And she does ask because she can feel it.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's a distance.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: The way he goes quiet when she talks about another weekend packed with plans that don't really include him.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that she excludes him, she invites him.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: He just doesn't want to go.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when he doesn't go, she goes anyway.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: She's just social, he tells himself.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's who she is.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: But in the quieter moments, when she's out and he's home, when he sees photos of her laughing with other people, something tightens.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: His funeral.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Damn.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um something tightens.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: A thought he doesn't fully let in.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe she doesn't need me that much.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe if I were more interesting, she'd choose me more.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: But he doesn't say any of that because needing feels risky.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So when she asks, Are you are we okay?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: He nods, Yeah, of course.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: When she says, You feel distant, he shrugs, I'm just tired.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: He tells himself it's not a big deal, that he doesn't want to be the guy who holds her back, but something in him keeps pulling away.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Not enough to name, just enough that she can feel it.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the more she tries to get closer, the more he insists nothing's wrong.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because saying the truth would mean admitting something he's not sure he can handle, that he wants more of her.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And isn't sure she'd choose him if he asked.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: So he keeps it simple.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm fine.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is a fun one.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this is uh a vignette that I kind of have playing in my head a lot with uh with a lot of different people, I feel like.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when you first start dating and you want them to like you and continue to like you, it's like how much are you really gonna kind of push for building the relationship that you want and asking the reassurance that you need and blah, blah, blah.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is um really relatable uh vignette and a case to unpack and continue the conversation with attachment.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like you read my journal and just turned it into this vignette here just because tell me more.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: I resonate with this because I think that I am naturally attracted to people who are more outgoing, more extroverted than I am.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: But then on the flip side of that, I think it's a fear.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that it's a fear that like if this is somebody that I'm attracted to and dating, how compatible are we at the end of the day if like if they're they're energized by social interaction?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Where for me it's like, yes, I can do that, like I can socialize and you know, and and it and I will enjoy it, but like it is incredibly draining for me, and I and like I need I need to lose charge.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think it it plays on like insecurities, you know what I mean?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: It plays on like this like fear of not being enough, I guess, or like and you know, especially like what what Noah said in the vignette of of feeling like I think at the end of the day, this idea of like I want to be chosen and I want to be like, no, you are enough, and I like I achieve you.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, curious, you know, how much of that is dramatized by culture and society.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like people can still enthusiastically choose you and choose to have social experiences that's apart from their partner, right?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be a compromise or oh, this person's too extroverted for me, so you know it's not compatible.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I he I hear that all the time, like, oh, it's a compatibility thing, or they're just too extroverted.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I feel like people can be different types of uh, you know, personalities and still have a really quality relationship, right?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a matter of like having the conversation.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing that really hits me in this vignette is the fact that he just chooses not to say anything.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where that covert, kind of like subtle depression just kind of starts to build is like you're not you're not saying anything.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you think that your thoughts are ridiculous, she may be completely in love with him.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And he just thinks, oh, I'm just not interesting enough.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just I want him to go debunk that theory if if if it's true or not, you know, but right it's a it's a choice that people have to make.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: And this specific instinct feels like a slope too, because you the in the ways that he's uh reacting or answering her, it's like I'm I'm fine.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and up and upset.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, bitch, like clearly you're not.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: And like I in, you know, like if if um based on like body language and things like that, you're doing yourself a disservice and you're doing a relationship a disservice by not being honest and not opening up, because then it just like you're gonna be resentful at the end of the day, and your partner is gonna fe then start to feel like for one, know that something's up and something's wrong, and then internalize that herself.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it like it's just that doesn't bode well, you know.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know Noah's backstory, right?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like one of the ways that I see this really commonly play out is someone who has had a long history of not landing relationships.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So very desperate to be loved and be craved and wanted, and willing to not have any sort of needs for the benefit of saying that, well, at least I do have somebody sometimes.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: That is so sad.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like hearing it out loud, I'm just like, oh no, buddy.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a common thing that you hear in the room?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, especially, you know, men who haven't really had a lot of romantic experiences.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not so it's not like a always like a desperate thing.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's more of like a yeah, just like a craving reassurance that like I'm able to be loved by somebody and and be chosen type of thing, because they do want to be in a relationship and not be alone.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's also like a craving to not be alone.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so like, you know, just being with somebody at least some of the time, you know, someone that wants to take you out on your birthday, but you know, maybe most weekends is going out on, you know, with friends or something, or going to social gatherings.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's this quiet fear that potentially could rise, which is, I wonder if they really want to spend time with me.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I want them to be able to ask that question for reassurance.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think some people also, and I'm curious what you think about this.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, some people will say that like speaking up if you're Noah is just you being too clingy.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious what your thoughts are on that, right?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because you kind of shared that like this is your journal.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of Noah, this is Carlos.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you think about of a reason potentially why you would stick within your attachment style and maybe be a little more avoidant and not say anything because you don't want to be seen as clingy?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think at this point I've just I've gotten used to being single.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've gotten used to being on my own.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: On one level, the thought of incorporating somebody else, like a romantic partner, into my life feels like an incredibly daunting task.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: I would say on another level, it's like being vulnerable with with a romantic partner.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's like that's not something that I've had to do in a a long time.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of like risk, you know, involved in that.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: I guess I I can sort of circle back to the the fear of like being too clingy or whatever.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that like I think that's all sort of wrapped into the fear of letting somebody in, you know what I mean, and and the fear of being vulnerable with somebody.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that also I'm somebody who wants to be challenged in, you know, in in in all areas of my life.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so like I I think I I am pretty open to constructive criticism and like the feedback and and and growing together.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I think what when I think of like a long-term partner, to have somebody who's going to choose me and and to go and grow through you know this this relationship together.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is why vulnerability is so key in relationships, because what you just talked about was you know, you were willing to be challenged.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was watching you speak, it was not so much you were willing, you you're saying that, you you're also saying um that it's sexy.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's it's attractive to have somebody challenge you to want better for not only both of you individually, but for the relationship.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And here we have Noah, who is choosing not to challenge himself and the relationship to get a need met.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he could he could easily talk to her and say, Hey, you know, I I'm really invested in you.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I want to grow our relationship.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're out, you know, going on all these social commitments and you're not running them by me, I feel like I'm not growing with you, that you're just living your life and I happen to be in it.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want that for us.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: I want us to build the relationship that the both of us really want.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm Lily, I'm like, that's that's sexy, man.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Take your pants off right now.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get it on right now.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that level of vulnerability is what would be required in that instant.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I mean by like hiding behind our attachment styles.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, well, instead of instead of choosing happiness, we're gonna stay stuck in our low self-esteem and our low sense of self and and not prioritize our our mental health and and just kind of be like, well, at least I have somebody who chooses me sometimes.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: A part of me really empathizes with Noah in this vignette, but I also think that um his fear is that if he opens up, if he's vulnerable, that his girlfriend or his partner is not going to uh reciprocate that or or or like be receptive to that, I mean.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, and whatever the outcome may be, like she'll break up with her, whatever it may be.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Where I look at it from, it's like, do you really want to be with somebody who's fickle, right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like like they're any little thing that you do is gonna set them off and like I'm done with you, type of thing.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's yeah, that's toxic behavior, you know what I mean?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's not that's not healthy to me, at least.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like, why would you want to prioritize those sorts of relationships?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm not saying that because that scenario could happen, you know what I mean?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like we we we hear about that all the time.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody's immune to that, is what I'm trying to say.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's like having a a higher level of like I don't know, discernment or or being able to like like I think it's self-worth.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you deserve to have a partner that will be receptive to that kind of challenge.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you deserve to have a partner that's not gonna go off the handle for you saying, I missed you.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know what I mean?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Not to say that Lily was gonna do this, but that was the example that you kind of portrayed.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I and I use that kind of example all the time.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: People will be like, well, I don't want to challenge because what if she says no?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Then my quote that I always say to them in the room is so then what are we doing here?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, then why are you you know what I mean?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like if it if it is just to talk to somebody about it, like I can be a listening ear and I can do that, but I mean, obviously I want I want I want the best for you.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So what are we gonna do?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: So on this topic of of like hiding behind your attachment style, I want to be able to like put it into context here, I guess.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or like in this vignette, Noah is the anxious one, then.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_04: No?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: Wait, no.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: You got it.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: You got it.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing so well.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: You were.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, you you can be in a relationship, it doesn't have to be, and this is a good example though, right?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because you don't have to have like, okay, if one person's avoidant, then the other person has to be anxious.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we said, it's a spectrum, right?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So this vignette gives more information about Noah than it does about Lily.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're looking at this, this feels more avoidant behavior from Noah, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's still this, like I said in the first episode in season one, it's not so much that like because you're avoiding, you don't experience anxiety.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's experiencing anxiety of the possibility of even asking this question, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: But he's avoiding how he deals with that anxiety.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's I don't want you to demonize these people, man.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're just trying to get their needs met, you know, this is what they've done.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: But this is the integration piece that I think the reason why we're bringing it up again in season two is like there's another, there's another layer here, there's another step that we could take, which is okay, like you recognize that you've developed a pattern where when it comes to your needs or feeling uncomfortable within a particular relationship about a boundary crossing or whatever it is, you choose not to bring it up.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And here it is.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Here's another example where you have an opportunity to to challenge that so that you do feel more secure within your relationships and the relationship with yourself.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: For the people who know their attachment style.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: And they're, you know, they're they're able to talk about it or they're able to talk through it and then sort of hiding behind that or or hide like using that as like a as an as an excuse, maybe.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: I would say therapy language is much more popular, accessible.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: Accessible.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: These these things can be weaponized.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the question is, are people actually putting in effort to to change or to or to like integrate that into their lives?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: I guess.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I guess a lot of people don't know how.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I guess is my first thought.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like they don't know, okay, so I identify myself as a little more on the avoiding camp.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does that mean?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is the goal to not be that?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Am I wrong for being?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of questions, I think, like, okay, the awareness is there, it's in pop culture, it's in all this stuff on TikTok and blah, blah, blah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: But then, like, what okay, now what?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, am I am I bad because of this?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or I think a lot of people are confused about what does integration actually look like?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm laughing at I feel like the the the growth it shows in in this episode, because like the first episode that we did was very much of a I mean, for from my perspective, was like the if you're avoidant, like you're you're the bad guy.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're the villain in everybody's story, if you're if you're avoidant.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever your attachment style may be, it doesn't make you the villain.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think at the end of the day, it's about your behaviors, right?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: And how you show up in in relationship to others, and and if you are sort of weaponizing attachment styles uh against people, your demeanor, against your partner.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one of the ways that I try to encourage people to to challenge their attachment styles is to work through them with like trusted friends and family.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, you know, Noah's been dating Lily here for eight months.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there is clearly a level of trust that has been built.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously on some sort of level.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he doesn't fully trust that she loves him unconditionally just for being who he is yet.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: But we're early on in the stage of that development of that relationship.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's okay.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a little bit of trust there of like, okay, she's kind to me, she cares about me, she invests in me in these ways.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I always like to tell people is let's say you're noticing, we said the awareness is there.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you're noticing all of a sudden that you're having this feeling of you want to say something to her, but you're choosing not to.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I try to tell people is I want you to at least say that.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it would be like, hey, Lily, I'm noticing that I want to tell you something and ask you a question, but I'm really scared to ask because I don't know what the answer is gonna be.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Even just that, even just saying like that little tiny feeling is such an amazing opportunity for connection and vulnerability.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe in that conversation, you don't even get to the question.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: You just talk about the safety around, okay, like what do you like, what do you think is gonna happen when you ask it?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like as a partner, you're able to to sit with that, and then with that experience, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're if you're an avoidant person and you you make that leap, even just that one step to say what I just said, and then it's received in a positive way from that person, you're gonna feel more comfortable to ask to ask them the next question and the next step.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the integration piece.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: It happens over time, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's the slowly challenging yourself to to letting people into your world, to saying, hey, hi, I'm Dr.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Dana, hello, hi.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm expecting.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Experiencing and I just want to like put that out there and see what this person does with it, especially in a new relationship.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great way because then you can see how they respond.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Does that jive with the type of values that you want to have in your relationship?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: If she flies off the handle and says, Oh, here we go again and rolls her eyes and says, quit being a little bitch, well, okay, then you then you I took that aggressively, huh?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: It happens.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's like that that sort of behavior, that sort of circumstance does happen, but it's like bitch.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: The question is, is it okay with you?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And do you want to be in a relationship that that happens, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: The reason why I'm asking, are you okay with that?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: is I want them to feel empowered to feel that they have a choice on how people treat them and and interact with them.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe, but maybe the question is, I don't know, not very helpful.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm trying to bring awareness to like, well, you that doesn't have to be your reality, right?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: You're choosing to be in this relationship.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: No one's putting a gun to your head, hopefully.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um again, that might be somebody's kink.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's oh my God.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm sure it's been done.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's what I see as the integration piece, right?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is okay, I recognize this, and now what can I do to challenge within these trusted people, not everybody.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying you to just never lean into your avoiding tendencies ever.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, keep yourself safe, do your thing.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, non-trusted relationships, strangers, coworkers, whatever you want to do, you have a choice in how you want to challenge yourself with with where to act differently in your life.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But hey, within an eight-month relationship, like this is a perfect opportunity for you.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's take one step there.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: And uh going back to the vignette here, with Noah, I feel like just like anything else in your life, the first time that you do something, it's gonna be scary.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's there, you know, like there's there's gonna be fear involved, but you get better with practice.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like if you if you're modeling this sort of behavior early on, it's it's all it only gets easier from there, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, or just expecting that behavior early on from one another, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Then you set those expectations, and then that's the groundwork of your relationship, that's what you lean back on, you know.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: So highly encouraged people to to do that kind of work, especially early on.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot of fear in doing that, right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because, like I said, if Noah's backstory was he hasn't really been in a lot of romantic experiences, then he's like, I'm just liking having a girlfriend, you know, like he doesn't see the the value of the long-term, you know, commitment to himself and the relationship.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, he's just enjoying he's blowing his teenage mind right now.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's just blowing something.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it feels like a common thing that I hear often where people sort of settle for less than because you know they want companionship, they want to partner and all these things, and and like which I guess it's like that's not the end of the world, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like if if that's if that's what you want, great, like have at it.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: But like if you are not truly happy, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: There are there are options out there for you.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think that that's where hiding behind your attachment style comes down to is you don't know if you not being happy is truly that big of a problem.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: What about for the person that's never experienced like true happiness or or like or just don't really have a frame of reference of like No, I think it's more about you don't know what you don't know.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you've never experienced that type of relationship, then how do you know that that's out there?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I get that a lot too, where it's like I'm describing this this ideal relationship, but even the way I just did with Noah, like, okay, you would go to her and you would say, Hey, I'm feeling this thing, blah, blah, blah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: The way I describe it, sometimes I'm being told back to me that like that sounds like fantasy land.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like a fairy tale.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, it doesn't have to be.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, it's it's right there for the taken, right?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess I'm always shocked about that.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what do you mean it's a fairy tale to be able to be vulnerable and open and hold space for each other?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And in my opinion, the basic, basic blocks of a relationship.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's that's all that's also bringing to mind for me a lot of the times.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're set up to believe that we have to meet these uh expectations, these milestones, these metrics.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like for what?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: That feels like a fairy tale to me.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Meeting all of these different milestones or expectations, like nah, bitch.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that was a dream or a fairy tale that we were sold.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it doesn't leave a whole lot of room for free will.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: We we do have free will, and we have the agency to to build the life that we want and the life that that makes us happy.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: We deserve it.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the thing, is it's it's not a fairy tale, you know, you being respected in your relationship or you feeling desirable in your relationship and knowing that your partner desires to spend time with you.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Noah's sitting here thinking that his girlfriend genuinely doesn't want to spend he would rather spend time with other people than him.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: To me, to to challenge that doesn't seem like a fairy tale to me.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: That seems like a like a requirement.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: But he's choosing not to, and and and that's okay.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't think that he's a terrible person or whatever because he's not choosing to say that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I think if I was his friend, if I was his family member, if I was his, you know, someone in his life, I'd I'd want to tell him that I think that they you deserve more.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not because she's not doing her part or enough, she's probably completely innocent in this.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: She's just doing her thing.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: She has no idea that he wants him that he wants her to commit more, probably to spending time with each other.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: How could she know that if all his response is, I'm fine.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm fine.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just I'm just tired.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just exactly.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, then she's like, okay, I guess you're fine.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't feel like it, but I'm gonna go to this birthday party.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: If Lily is watching her partner um clearly not be fine with this, yeah, then I guess my question is, then doesn't she have some sort of responsibility for the relationship to then be like, I guess what I'm trying to say is that like either party here could step up and say something.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I mean by like they both could be being avoidant, you know?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like they both could be sticking in their avoidant tendencies, be like, well, at least I have a boyfriend and he's cool with me going out and he says he's okay.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think he really is, but he says it's okay.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna keep going.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna keep going because I'm having more fun anyway.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we have no idea what she's what she's feeling, right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Being a marriage to family therapist, I think in systems, right?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think about all the systems that we the structures that play out in our lives.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: So our family units, our work life, our neighbors, our our city, our state.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: So if you I think very sociologically as well.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I'm hearing somebody talk on the couch about their experience, I have to conceptualize that that is their experience within a narrow view of all the other perspectives that's happening around them.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so oftentimes I like to tell people like to go and ask, like, is that what this other person's feeling?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: You said that like she just doesn't care.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't actually know that.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I want you to go ask, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I that's part of like the homework that I give sometimes is you know, being able to challenge people to go and and and deconstruct those those narratives that you're holding about other people's perspectives.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: The way that I say that is like both of these people have opportunities to be curious about themselves, about the situation, and and I feel like that's often overlooked.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Going back to our previous episode, it's I think it is a very nuanced topic because again, like sociologically, there's there's so much happening.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's like there's I feel like the system is not set up for us to succeed.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: It makes it incredibly difficult to think critically about these things and to putting myself in Lily and Noah's uh shoes here.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: There are there's so much telling us to be complacent, I think.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's a model of of therapy, a theory called IBCT, integrative behavioral couples therapy.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the um components during my training when I was learning about this was uh that that you're describing is this concept that couples have mutual responsibility, right?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: The the mutual responsibility on both Noah and Lily's end to be able to say, well, something's off here, and I want to say something.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's what makes couples have really successful relationships and cultures, is that realizing that you're not the bad person here, but you also need to realize that you have mutual responsibility.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: The both of you got to step up here.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And where do you need to step up?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Where does your partner need to step up?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And how can we get what we both want out of what we're trying to build here?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to bring that home as like that is a real thing that like couples need to be able to do is have this idea of mutual responsibility.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's important to say that everybody has sort of response a mutual responsibility to to step up, to see something, say something.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: There you go.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Attachment styles really help people gain an incredible amount of awareness, but it's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to building the relationships that you want with people that matter most to you.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I want people to invest in learning about how they have become the person that they are and why, but we don't have to stay there.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's grow and let's just like you would with any part of your life, whether it's work, whether it's physical health, whether it's whatever it is, let's keep let's keep moving forward.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why people call it mental health, because it's something that you're constantly working on.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so hopefully that's becoming full picture for people to see that like this is why this is important, and it's another aspect that you need to focus on.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Hell yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: The broing pain here for me, I would say something that I that is always in the back of my head.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um actually, your wife called you out.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: He she said that you you stole that from her, that we can do hard things.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think she stole it from something else.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: She did, yeah.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's true.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can do hard things, and we're we're worthy of like getting to that other side, right?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: Of of like accomplishing these difficult things.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And even if you don't, right, like it, it's it's fine also.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's it might take a few tries, it might take practice.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: So we leave you with this question where in your relationships are you choosing what feels familiar over what's actually healthy?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Next week, we're continuing our topic again on covert male depression and how men hide behind, you know, feeling like they can't get their needs met by doing behaviors such as um abuse, manipulation, or control.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's a it's gonna be a juicy topic and one that we're excited to have our third guest on.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Next episode, we'll be joined by Mauricio, an educator, advocate, and content creator who uses his platform to talk about identity and culture.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be a really fascinating conversation on abuse and manipulation from a different angle, from a different perspective that I that I don't think gets talked about.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Enough.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for hanging with us for another episode of Growing Pains.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: If this episode has shifted your perspective at all, don't just keep it to yourself.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Pass it on.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Follow us on TikTok and Instagram at Growing Pains to stay tapped in with the community.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you got a story, question, or a hot take you want us to unpack, slide into our inbox at growingpainspod at gmail.com.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to hear from you.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_04: You mad, bruh.