Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / When One Person Is Always Catching The Other In Little Lies

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When One Person Is Always Catching The Other In Little Lies · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
• 0:09
  Today we're going to be talking about repairing your
• 0:11
  relationship after lies and the the most common one is
• 0:16
  infidelity. But I have a whole podcast on
• 0:18
  recovery after infidelity and post, so this is not going to be
• 0:21
  about that. This is going to be about other
• 0:24
  kind of lies, you know? There's a lot of lies that
• 0:26
  somebody can can lie about. And before we get into the meat
• 0:31
  of that, please do subscribe. The most recent subscriber
• 0:34
  episode was why I do not use all my posts and podcasts to talk to
• 0:38
  both partners at the same time. Common grievance of my followers
• 0:45
  and there are many, many other episodes who should be listening
• 0:48
  to that and join my Facebook group has a bunch of great
• 0:51
  people in there. We talk about things all the
• 0:53
  time. That is the way to get questions
• 0:55
  answered because I do not post them on my blog anymore.
• 0:58
  Some people have been like but you do on medium.
• 1:00
  Medium is all reprints. Medium is reprints of everything
• 1:02
  from doctor psych, mom. So I used to take people's
• 1:05
  individual questions and when I had more time and now I don't.
• 1:09
  So if you want to ask me your questions and you miss my
• 1:11
  Facebook Live, where you can always ask them when I'm going
• 1:14
  live, live or wherever I go live, which is mostly Facebook,
• 1:18
  then you could join the group and start your own thread and
• 1:21
  talk about it. And I'll chime in.
• 1:22
  And so will other people. All right.
• 1:24
  So today we're going to be talking about lying.
• 1:27
  And what are some kinds of lies? So people lie about money.
• 1:31
  They lie about how much they spend.
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  They lie about whether they're using porn.
• 1:34
  They lie about whether they went drinking.
• 1:37
  They lie about if they looked at that other woman in the street.
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  They lie about lots of things, you know, and most of the
• 1:44
  reasons that people lie are because they were raised in kind
• 1:47
  of punitive homes and or you know, where they had to lie
• 1:50
  basically to do anything. So if your parents are very
• 1:52
  harsh and you're only recourse if you want to go to the mall
• 1:56
  with friends like a normal kid, like everybody's doing, then you
• 1:59
  got to say that you're not going to the mall with friends.
• 2:01
  And you know, you could do that. But before the days of cell
• 2:04
  phone tracking, it was a lot easier to lie about where you
• 2:06
  went. And if there was like a lot of
• 2:08
  rules, then kids learn to lie. So in authoritarian, more strict
• 2:13
  and harsh homes, kids learn to lie.
• 2:15
  So, you know, so that they could get to do things and they could
• 2:19
  have some autonomy and agency, which is a basic human need.
• 2:24
  Also, sometimes people just see parents lying, you know?
• 2:27
  So if all the time your parents are very image conscious and
• 2:30
  they're lying and everybody's having a bad day, but they say
• 2:33
  stop it, stop it, you know, smile.
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  People are coming. Like we don't want them to.
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  Think of what goes on here, you know, like you'll say your
• 2:40
  father was dead drunk on the couch and your mother kept
• 2:43
  saying he was tired and you at some point realized he was
• 2:45
  drunk. That's a lie.
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  So you realize people lie in order to save face and in order
• 2:51
  to image manage. So either you do it to get out
• 2:54
  of trouble or you do it to manage your image so that other
• 2:56
  people see you more like how you wish that they would see you or
• 3:00
  how you wish you were. And those are basically the
• 3:02
  reasons. And so people who are married to
• 3:07
  people who tend to lie get very crazy about it, generally
• 3:11
  because they feel gasoline, because they are being gasoline.
• 3:14
  It isn't an intention. The person generally, unless
• 3:17
  there's a socio, they're a sociopath.
• 3:19
  That's a very, very low, low, low probability.
• 3:22
  Most people do not lie in order to hurt somebody else.
• 3:26
  In fact, they lie so that nobody gets hurt.
• 3:29
  That's how they think about it. They think, well, I'm just going
• 3:31
  to say this, they don't even really think about.
• 3:33
  It just kind of comes out of their mouth because they're so
• 3:36
  used to doing it because they were raised to do it and they've
• 3:38
  been doing it forever. And so so you're, you know, so,
• 3:42
  so nobody gets hurt and we can have a nice day.
• 3:44
  And all the time it's like Charlie Brown and the football.
• 3:47
  So, like, the woman will be like, did you put back an empty
• 3:50
  box of cereal in the pantry? And he'll say, no, no, they're
• 3:54
  like, let's say it's just the two of them, you know, and
• 3:56
  there's not even kids yet. And so she says, well, you did.
• 3:59
  I don't even eat that cereal. And he said, well, I didn't do
• 4:01
  that. So, I mean, you could see how
• 4:04
  that would really bother somebody, you know, and and then
• 4:08
  they start to be crazy. That's when people start to do
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  crazy shit, like looking at like the Nest Cab and seeing if they
• 4:13
  could see this guy take out the cereal and whatever.
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  And so it puts you into this role of like a prosecutor, you
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  know, like going after somebody and litigating whether or not
• 4:23
  they put back an empty box of cereal.
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  And in the moment it's like they can get it out of their mouth
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  that they did it. In fact, they don't even want to
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  allow the memories of doing it even surface.
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  So they're basically like like squelching their memory of
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  having put it back because they don't even want.
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  Nobody wants to be a liar. So they just like, not even
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  letting that memory go up into their consciousness, which is
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  what repression is. And they are just defending
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  themselves. And what they'll say is you're
• 4:49
  always going after me. You're always attacking me, you
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  know? And then then sometimes I'll say
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  something like if I did finish the cereal and put it back, why
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  is it such a big deal? And the person says it isn't
• 5:01
  such a big deal, it's that you lied about it, right.
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  So then, you know, this is kind of what couples counseling is
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  like in case you wanted to feel good about whatever you chose to
• 5:09
  do for a career, that it's not listening to this.
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  No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
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  But you know, you hear this type of shit a lot.
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  And so generally, fairly quickly, hopefully we can get to
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  the point that it's not about the cereal and that we could
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  begin the more interesting, deeper work of couples
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  counseling, which is actually interesting, you know, And we
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  could figure out why does this guy lie about the fucking
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  cereal? And then also why does it
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  trigger her so much, Because it isn't everybody that would be
• 5:37
  equally as upset about the guy lying about the cereal.
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  It's obvious he's lying about the cereal.
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  She knows reality. She knows she doesn't eat the
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  cereal, so why why doesn't she take it as kind of cute like oh
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  like how a 2 year old would lie to get out of trouble?
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  Well in generally the people who are liars are, as I just
• 5:54
  discussed, image conscious people and they you know, are
• 5:59
  they're they're they they came off a little different than the
• 6:03
  honeymoon stage. They came off as Mr. Perfect or
• 6:07
  Miss Perfect and they, you know, really got the person interested
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  because they are really professional image managers.
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  That's how they were raised. And so they came off very, very
• 6:18
  perfect. And what is that like for
• 6:21
  everybody? That's a really good listener.
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  Those are traits of being narcissistic.
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  So people who lie a lot do tend to be somewhat narcissistic.
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  And who's drawn to people with traits of narcissism?
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  People with traits of Borderline.
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  So people who have less self esteem than average.
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  And I have a podcast. The the borderline.
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  The narcissist, borderline dynamic, extreme, preoccupied,
• 6:44
  and avoid an attachment. Something like that.
• 6:46
  Put in narcissist into the Spotify search engine for Doctor
• 6:49
  Psych Mom show and you'll get it.
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  But so people who are more sensitive than average, people
• 6:55
  who are more reactive, people who take things more personally,
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  people of lower self esteem are generally drawn to these people
• 7:03
  who lie. And so then they exacerbate each
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  other at infinitum. They are just crazy.
• 7:08
  This one is like going to swear at his mother's grave that he
• 7:11
  never even saw that cereal in his life.
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  And then she is about to like light herself on fire to show
• 7:17
  how upset she is, you know, and it just gets crazy.
• 7:20
  So what can we do? Well, first of all, the person
• 7:23
  who lies needs to be in therapy. They really need to be in
• 7:25
  therapy. So does the other one.
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  But they really need to be in therapy.
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  Not to address the lying only, but to address whatever the hell
• 7:32
  went on in their early life life.
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  Because their early life is where they learn to lie.
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  People do not do it out of nowhere.
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  The most crazy making and invalidating thing that people
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  often say in this situation is I only lie because you go after me
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  so hard. You're always attacking me.
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  So that's why I'm just trying to defend myself and you know it's
• 7:51
  impossible to live with you. Which of course is the other
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  person's greatest fear is that they're crazy and they're too
• 7:57
  crazy to be lovable. And that on some level, they are
• 7:59
  bringing out the worst of this person who, after all, did act a
• 8:02
  lot different at the honeymoon stage, even more than average,
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  because they were, you know, an image manager.
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  They like to manage their image. So much so anyway, so this
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  person, the one who lies, needs to kind of go in depth.
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  And I've done this work with people.
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  People with narcissistic traits are some of the best clients
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  because they've never thought about it different.
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  And they're very interested in their own story, quite honestly.
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  And so they're interested, you know, like we talk about their
• 8:27
  childhood, man. They're like on tenterhooks
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  about it. They're like what happened next.
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  They're so excited because they do like to talk about
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  themselves, Shore, and also they've never really gone deep
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  on it. It's either been my parents were
• 8:38
  a bunch of assholes or my parents were great.
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  That's like kind of all that they do.
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  And then the story moved on to them.
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  That's how they were trained to think.
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  But when they go deeper and see like these little lies that
• 8:49
  their mom did, that their dad did, these kind of seeped into
• 8:51
  their consciousness and informs their way of viewing the world
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  When we are in some way in trouble, what we should do is
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  lie, you know and and they'll be interested in then they will.
• 9:02
  Usually many people are interested in seeing if they can
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  stop and seeing what a real relationship could be like if
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  they stop lying about little shit all the time.
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  On the other end, the person who's coupled with the liar is
• 9:14
  also should be in therapy because that person has low self
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  esteem. You know you're never drawn to
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  somebody who has traits of being self-centered unless you're
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  hitching your wagon to their star because you're not
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  confident in your own star, you know?
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  So this is the borderline narcissist dynamic.
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  And I'm not saying that these people have to have these
• 9:31
  diagnosis, but they certainly have the traits of 1 being more
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  reactive and more oversensitive, likely having a history where
• 9:38
  they felt gaslighted as a kid. So that needs to be explored as
• 9:41
  well. What is being brought up in you?
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  Because when parents lie, it's not good for the children, but
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  sometimes the children can emulate it like this more
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  narcissistic liar person. And sometimes kids can go
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  against it like terribly allergic to any dishonesty,
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  which is like a core aspect of the more borderline or the
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  reactive personality here is they just hate any dishonesty or
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  reminds them of, of their parents who they think we're
• 10:09
  hypocrites or we're nasty or acted like they were good but
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  they really weren't, etcetera, etcetera.
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  So these two people are exacerbating each other, score
• 10:17
  childhood wounds. And I've seen people recover
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  from this kind of thing because that person who's so reactive
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  has to learn, OK, like, we're going to try something new.
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  I'm going to say something like, did you you know, finish the
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  cereal? But I'm going to think about why
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  am I saying it? Do I really need to say it?
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  I knew he finished the cereal. What was really my point?
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  It's not to say, did you finish the cereal?
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  Because I do know that he did, and it just sets him up to lie.
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  But it's like, please don't put back empty cereal.
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  And then he could learn to say, oh shit, I'm going to lie, feel
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  like I'm about to lie, feel like I'm about to lie, I'm going to
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  try something else. Yet I know at home my dad would
• 10:56
  have said that he didn't do that and started a fight.
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  I'm going to do something different now that I'm learning
• 11:01
  how to be different. And I'm going to say, OK, I'm
• 11:04
  just going to say, OK, you know, and accept that feedback, which
• 11:07
  can be very transformative and super different than how this
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  couple is used to being, you know, to relating to one
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  another, obviously. So she's going to say please
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  don't put back the cereal when it's empty.
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  And I'm going to say, OK, And then they didn't have a fight.
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  And once a couple can ever avoid a fight that previously would
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  have gone into this doom spiral of 1 lies and one attacks and
• 11:28
  one goes forward and one pursues and one distances, you know,
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  then they have a mastery experience under their belt and
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  they can move forward, you know, with more confidence that they
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  could do that in the future, you know.
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  And that's how they could break this intergenerational cycle
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  because both of them probably in their upbringing, you know, saw
• 11:47
  bad marriages, you know, marriages that were not truly
• 11:49
  intimate because either they were extremely based on image
• 11:53
  managing or they were rife with conflict and disconnection.
• 11:58
  People, I mean, as I say all the time, you know, when people grow
• 12:01
  up in houses where the parents are happily married, it's like
• 12:04
  riding a bike. They get happily married.
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  Like, those are the happily married people.
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  You know, they know how to do it.
• 12:09
  They, they find each other. And it's like they're they're,
• 12:11
  you know, giving bat signals to each other like, oh, like, I
• 12:14
  engage normally and healthily here.
• 12:16
  Oh, you do that too. Oh, OK.
• 12:18
  I guess we click. But you know, those of us who
• 12:22
  were not so lucky to grow up with just, you know, in
• 12:25
  functional families, you know, then you learn all the
• 12:28
  dysfunctional patterns and then you have to relearn you other
• 12:32
  patterns of communicating. So in a happier home, for
• 12:35
  example, people generally wouldn't say, and this may be an
• 12:38
  epiphany in and of itself worth the price of admission.
• 12:41
  People wouldn't say, did you put back the cereal?
• 12:45
  You're like, well, what's wrong with that?
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  That's just a question. It's not just a question.
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  It is an accusation. Does that make it right that he
• 12:51
  pretended he never saw the cereal in his life?
• 12:53
  Certainly not. That's crazy.
• 12:56
  But what you did is not a paragon of mental health either,
• 12:59
  you know, So, you know, people don't, they would say something
• 13:03
  like direct, be direct and honest and just say please don't
• 13:06
  put back the empty cereal. And then some houses, people
• 13:09
  just throw out the empty cereal. So it's like you got a choice.
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  You could either throw out the cereal or you could say it or
• 13:15
  that's it. Those are your choices.
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  What your choice is not is to start a fight.
• 13:18
  Because if you did not grow up in a house with fighting, then
• 13:21
  you just don't start a fight, you know, and saying did you put
• 13:24
  back anti serial is starting a fight.
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  So that person is not being virtuous either in this regard
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  and is not being an excellent partner.
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  And so if they both did their couple's counseling and they
• 13:36
  could see the origin or if the couple's counseling focused on
• 13:39
  the origin of their dysfunction, their individual interlocking
• 13:42
  pathology, we call it. Then we can start moving toward
• 13:46
  practicing different ways that the couple can communicate that
• 13:49
  are more direct, less passive, aggressive or directly
• 13:52
  aggressive and that actually get the needs met of both people and
• 13:56
  avoid conflict, particularly conflict that's overheard by the
• 13:59
  children, which is the worst kind of conflict as I always
• 14:01
  discuss. So this could be an interesting
• 14:05
  one to think about. You know because if you were the
• 14:07
  liar, then you probably aren't even listening to this podcast
• 14:11
  because you're the the avoid an attachment one and you are not
• 14:14
  interested in it. But you may be forced to listen
• 14:17
  to it, in which case may be a picture interest.
• 14:18
  As I've said with people who tend this way avoid an
• 14:21
  attachment or more self involved, they they do get
• 14:25
  interested. Certainly they, you know, are
• 14:27
  interested in a pattern that makes sense if it's presented to
• 14:30
  them. If they'll be in one place long
• 14:32
  enough to hear it, they'll stay in therapy long enough to hear
• 14:35
  the insight. Then they get interested, right?
• 14:37
  And so, and if you're the other one, the one that's like,
• 14:40
  there's nothing wrong with me, he's just a fucking liar, then
• 14:43
  you could be like, well, wait, like, do I really go after him?
• 14:46
  In a way that's like stuff that I saw growing up?
• 14:48
  Probably, yes, probably. There is an accusatory, very
• 14:52
  dramatic or murdered style that anybody would respond to poorly.
• 14:57
  They wouldn't all lie, but nobody would like it.
• 15:00
  All right, I hope you guys found this one interesting.
• 15:02
  The next one will likely be a subscriber episode, and I have
• 15:06
  no idea what that will be yet. I will have to see which way the
• 15:09
  wind is blowing that morning and decide on the spot.
• 15:12
  And thank you so much for listening and I will talk to you
• 15:15
  all soon. Have a great day.